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722019-10-10T06:06:37 <kallewoof> I really don't like maintainers closing PRs in author's faces. Specifically https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16681#issuecomment-539694699 -- can we just not do this, ever? I'd rather have 1000 open PRs than this kind of power abuse.
732019-10-10T06:08:02 <kallewoof> If the PR is clearly wrong, that is one thing of course, but closing a PR in the middle of a discussion sends the wrong message.
742019-10-10T06:09:54 <luke-jr> no kidding
752019-10-10T06:10:24 <luke-jr> otoh, the author did say to close it in that example :p
762019-10-10T06:11:07 <luke-jr> also rather annoying stuff I'm actively maintaining gets closed because I'm not basing them on master anymore (because why bother when nobody reviews?)
772019-10-10T06:11:11 <kallewoof> It was a question which, if it ended up being the overall conclusion, would result in him, himself, closing it, I think.
782019-10-10T06:12:19 <kallewoof> luke-jr: I think that's bad too, but I also think we as PR authors need to kind of champion our PRs towards merging more (I myself suck at this)
792019-10-10T06:12:59 <kallewoof> Maintainers closing a PR with no updates for years I can kind of get, but this was a relatively new PR with active discussion from multiple people.
802019-10-10T06:14:00 <luke-jr> I update most of mine regularly - but often just on top of the most recent stable branch.
812019-10-10T06:14:10 <luke-jr> (so always under a year stale)
822019-10-10T06:15:36 <kallewoof> I for one consider a PR unreviewable if it is unmergable into master, but maybe I'm mistaken on that.
832019-10-10T06:16:03 <Randolf> I've noticed this problem with PRs getting closed in the middle of discussions in other projects too. It's horrible.
842019-10-10T06:16:16 <kallewoof> There's also the fact that PR authors have to convince people to review their PRs. I honestly have no good solution for that one. And your code can be a bit like Matt's... scary and hard to review.
852019-10-10T06:16:36 <Randolf> Perhaps it's a limitation of how GitHub works.
862019-10-10T06:17:46 <kallewoof> Randolf: Why? Maintainers assume authors can't make the judgement call. That's all there is to it, IMO.
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902019-10-10T06:20:19 <Randolf> kallewoof: If a PR is actively being discussed though, then shouldn't it generally be kept open at least for a while?
912019-10-10T06:21:03 <luke-jr> kallewoof: there's been a PR review club thing attempted for a few months. maybe more of us need to get invovled in it
922019-10-10T06:21:15 <luke-jr> Randolf: I think we're all agreement on that
932019-10-10T06:21:27 <kallewoof> ^ Yep
942019-10-10T06:22:11 <kallewoof> luke-jr: Yeah, that is a separate problem (I guess), but definitely. My bitcoin dev time is currently on the low end for a bit, but once I get time back I'll make that effort for sure.
952019-10-10T06:26:48 <cncr04s> whos in charge of what gets committed?
962019-10-10T06:27:54 <cncr04s> or even the direction of what each release is trying to acomplish
972019-10-10T06:28:55 <luke-jr> in theory, nobody; in practice, only stuff with interest from quite a few devs goes anywhere
982019-10-10T06:30:46 <Randolf> That's like a popular vote ... like a democracy.
992019-10-10T06:31:54 <luke-jr> not really
1002019-10-10T06:32:43 <Randolf> Without the voting part.
1012019-10-10T06:33:01 <luke-jr> and without the masses being involved
1022019-10-10T06:36:09 <Randolf> Yeah, a much smaller population in this case.
1032019-10-10T06:36:35 <Bullit> Oh is the problem that command structure is distributed buying options cause that aint a effect that we can measure
1042019-10-10T06:37:41 <warren> During tomorrow's IRC meeting I'm bringing up the topic of three possible migration paths for the dev lists.
1052019-10-10T06:37:57 <warren> 1) Google Groups - Eliminates the maintenance and DoS headache. But people had serious concerns about this option a few years ago due to it being a centralized service. An informal poll of developers early this year indicated most people prefer that it just work and they don't want to think about how. Perhaps people would care less about this now.
1062019-10-10T06:38:09 <warren> 2) mailman2 hosted by a non-profit known for hosting FOSS projects in the past decades. For sensitivity reasons can't talk details about this as it might blow up the proposal. The non-profit needs community donations generally to continue their good work.
1072019-10-10T06:39:21 <sipa> warren: i really don't think the bitcoin core project meeting is appropriate for thos
1082019-10-10T06:39:28 <warren> 3) self-hosted mailman2 - We have offers of donated dedicated servers but that is nowhere near the hard part. If you have tried to properly maintain a MTA you know it requires a fair bit of experience and ongoing effort. When you deliver mail to numerous providers it is far too easy to be induced by an attacker to forward spam and get your IP on blacklists. Other attacks include invalid subscriber flooding and other ways of causing bounce
1092019-10-10T06:39:28 <warren> floods and resource exhaustion. A properly maintained mail server can mitigate this but you always have to adjust strategies to counter the next abuse method. This option would require an ongoing cost to compensate a professional sysadmin who is intimately familiar with this.
1102019-10-10T06:39:44 <warren> sipa: how the hell else am I supposed to get people to pay attention?
1112019-10-10T06:40:15 <warren> We have somebody in mind with experience to do #3 but he acknowledges this is a headache enough that we should really try the #2 or #1 method. I think several of us would prefer that we just moved it to Google Groups where we could probably just forget about DoS and maintenance headaches for the indefinite future.
1122019-10-10T06:40:18 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3 | Encrypt wallet · Issue #3 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1132019-10-10T06:40:19 <Randolf> warren: With Google Groups, are you thinking NNTP or Google's proprietary Groups? (I know that NNTP can support both moderated and unmoderated newsgroups.)
1142019-10-10T06:40:21 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2 | Long-term, safe, store-of-value · Issue #2 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1152019-10-10T06:40:24 <warren> Note: Other list management platforms like groups.io were seen as unacceptable because of how they munge message-id. I *think* Google Groups doesn't do that but we it to be tested.
1162019-10-10T06:40:24 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1 | JSON-RPC support for mobile devices ("ultra-lightweight" clients) · Issue #1 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1172019-10-10T06:40:34 <sipa> warren: well it's a discussion to be had on the ML, not here
1182019-10-10T06:40:44 <cncr04s> I use mailgun to send emails
1192019-10-10T06:41:11 <luke-jr> warren: Google has a history of sometimes blocking non-big-company mail servers
1202019-10-10T06:41:29 <warren> It's *hard* in part because I literally can't talk about some details in public as it may scare away the most ideal host.
1212019-10-10T06:41:54 <luke-jr> [06:39:44] <warren> sipa: how the hell else am I supposed to get people to pay attention? <-- if posting to the ML doesn't do it, maybe there's no point?
1222019-10-10T06:43:04 <luke-jr> to rephrase: ML hosting only matters if people are using the ML; in which case, posting to the ML is probably the best way to get the eyes needed
1232019-10-10T06:43:14 <sipa> exactly
1242019-10-10T06:43:43 <warren> The developers have made it clear after several opportunities where I've asked for 1) help 2) opinions that they simply just want something that works. But we don't do anything here with a tiny cabal who decides for everyone else. Also we're volunteers too doing a part that other people find necessary but are annoyed to hear about?
1252019-10-10T06:43:58 <Randolf> warren: I've been doing hosting since about the mid-1990s, running our own mail servers, web servers, etc. I'd be willing to host mailman3 with PostgreSQL in the back-end. (I'd need to find out more details from you on requirements, etc.) (We have IPv4 and IPv6 support.)
1262019-10-10T06:44:11 <warren> Randolf: mailman3 is unacceptable
1272019-10-10T06:44:23 <warren> Randolf: we
1282019-10-10T06:44:25 <warren> we
1292019-10-10T06:44:29 <warren> grr...
1302019-10-10T06:44:32 <Randolf> warren: Okay. I thought you mentioned mailman, but no problem. I actually don't use mailman anywhere.
1312019-10-10T06:44:56 <luke-jr> Randolf: mailman2, not 3 ; apparently 3 has serious issues
1322019-10-10T06:44:58 <warren> you wouldn't know how problematic this stuff is if you haven't spent years trying to use it
1332019-10-10T06:45:02 <Randolf> Okay.
1342019-10-10T06:45:09 <Bullit> <gribble> rbitcoin: Visa processes 1,700 transactions per second. The lighting network is capable of processing millions to billions of transactions per second. <<< Who´s the electrican in AE
1352019-10-10T06:45:40 <sipa> i know there is a bunch of overlap, but it really feels wrong to discuss or even determine the fate of the mailing list (which is supposed to be an indistry wide forum) in a bitcoin core specific place
1362019-10-10T06:46:10 <Randolf> warren: Well, I'm familiar with the anti-spam community as I've been involved in that for a very long time (I used to participate in NANAE, but mostly just lurk once in a while now).
1372019-10-10T06:46:11 <sipa> even if succesful, that's a bery bad outcome
1382019-10-10T06:46:17 <warren> the only lists that aren't dead are bitcoin-core-dev and lightning-dev
1392019-10-10T06:46:27 <sipa> what?
1402019-10-10T06:46:28 <luke-jr> bitcoin-dev you mean
1412019-10-10T06:46:37 <warren> oh oops ...
1422019-10-10T06:46:46 <sipa> bitcoin-core-dev has no traffic at all afaik
1432019-10-10T06:46:58 <luke-jr> well, it has rc announcements
1442019-10-10T06:46:59 <sipa> as we do everything on github
1452019-10-10T06:47:07 <sipa> right, that's it
1462019-10-10T06:47:20 <Bullit> Strange call on this turkish man
1472019-10-10T06:47:20 <Randolf> warren: If you find that you need hosting for mailman2 (or whatever you need), please know that I'm willing to volunteer.
1482019-10-10T06:47:41 <sipa> i don't think the question is so much who will maintain it
1492019-10-10T06:47:48 <sipa> rather what organization will control it
1502019-10-10T06:48:04 <Randolf> sipa: Having things decentralized is important.
1512019-10-10T06:48:13 <sipa> Randolf: yes, exactly
1522019-10-10T06:48:14 <luke-jr> sipa: I think it's actually both :/
1532019-10-10T06:48:36 <sipa> sure, but i'm sure funds can be found to pay a competent maintainer
1542019-10-10T06:48:43 <sipa> if necessary
1552019-10-10T06:48:59 <warren> Randolf: Open Source anti-spam sucking, needing constant hand tuning, and perpetually being poorly maintained in FOSS I have some authority on the matter. I tried and failed to keep spamassassin from being totally dead for a few years. It stressed me out and I gave up ~2012. Other people picked it up after me but this stuff is perpetually under-resourced, and thankless work. anti-spam is also only a small part of the problem.
1562019-10-10T06:49:42 <luke-jr> since it's moderated anyway, do we even need anti-spam?
1572019-10-10T06:49:46 <warren> sipa: hence LF agreeing to host it seemed perfect in 2015 because nobody questioned their neutrality.
1582019-10-10T06:50:00 <luke-jr> worst case something gets through the antispam to the mods who reject it
1592019-10-10T06:50:11 <sipa> but imho either we find a neutral third party to run it (like lf!), or we'll have to pick some big centralized company
1602019-10-10T06:50:14 <warren> luke-jr: not even the largest problem, when the rest of it is poorly maintained it goes haywire.
1612019-10-10T06:50:29 <Randolf> warren: Yeah, I'm familiar with that. It's a bit of an art and a science to keep anti-spam stuff working well for clients, blocking the junk without flagging legitimate stuff. Spammers suck.
1622019-10-10T06:50:35 <sipa> even the answer of "we run our self hsoted instance" runs into the question of firdt defining who "we" is
1632019-10-10T06:51:02 <warren> LF doesn't want to do list hosting at all anymore, they were willing to pay to outsource our lists to groups.io (which we found to be technically unacceptable, we're not the only dev lists who refused to move there)
1642019-10-10T06:51:20 <warren> The other orgs however are uncontroversial and do not attract DoS attacks
1652019-10-10T06:51:55 <warren> LF asked us to migrate 2 years ago, they will eventually kick us off
1662019-10-10T06:53:44 <warren> I've since learned from that sysadmin that mailman2 doesn't suck nearly as much as I've been lead to believe. fdo and a few others maintain modern versions and with a non-upstreamable CAPTCHA it stops one of the crippling attacks that knocked LF's mailman offline for weeks.
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1682019-10-10T06:55:12 <sipa> warren: well, i really think this discussion should move to the list
1692019-10-10T06:55:20 <sipa> i promise to respond with my thoughts
1702019-10-10T06:55:52 <warren> OK, I'm meeting kanzure tomorrow or Friday-ish to write all this down together. I'm taking time off "work" to focus on this.
1712019-10-10T06:56:39 <warren> sorry for expression my frustration here.
1722019-10-10T06:56:43 <sipa> warren: also, you should not feel bad aboit sending a "this is what i've tried, but i've been unable to find an acceptable solution, i want to work on other things" response
1732019-10-10T06:56:57 <luke-jr> looks like mailman2 had an upstream release a year ago
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1752019-10-10T06:57:37 <Randolf> How much volume does the current setup of the mailing lists get?
1762019-10-10T06:58:42 <warren> Not much. It's mostly attacks that succeeded in knocking the servers offline with swap storms and the OOM killer mainly because they stopped trying to maintain their list server.
1772019-10-10T06:58:59 <warren> They "fixed" it early 2019 by blackholing all bounces.
1782019-10-10T06:59:47 <warren> That means the server is incapable of deliverying mail to several large providers who perma-banned the IP.
1792019-10-10T07:00:34 <warren> My information is likely incomplete because it's only bits and pieces they told me. They clearly don't want to deal with this anymore.
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1822019-10-10T07:01:02 <Randolf> The old block-and-forget routine. It can be worse than being listed in SPEWS (while it was still running).
1832019-10-10T07:02:16 <warren> I'm sleeping. I am again mentioning that there exists a temporary channel if people want to discuss, give opinions or help test stuff for the list migration. Ask me in PM for an invite if you are interested.
1842019-10-10T07:03:36 *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1852019-10-10T07:03:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bc7e721d97dc...b265ffe32371
1862019-10-10T07:03:37 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f33efa8 Luke Dashjr: GUI: Restore RPC Console to non-wallet tray icon menu
1872019-10-10T07:03:37 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b265ffe Jonas Schnelli: Merge #15023: GUI: Restore RPC Console to non-wallet tray icon menu
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1912019-10-10T07:04:11 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b265ffe32371...5cb1d938a1c9
1922019-10-10T07:04:12 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 091747b João Barbosa: gui: Add shortcuts for tab tools
1932019-10-10T07:04:12 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5cb1d93 Jonas Schnelli: Merge #15756: gui: Add shortcuts for tab tools
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1962019-10-10T07:04:30 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #15023: GUI: Restore RPC Console to non-wallet tray icon menu (master...gui_node_rpcconsole) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15023
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1992019-10-10T07:04:51 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #15756: gui: Add shortcuts for tab tools (master...2019-04-tools-shortcuts) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15756
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2072019-10-10T07:38:55 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #17093: tests: Add fuzzing harness for various CTx{In,Out} related functions (master...fuzzers-txin-txout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17093
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2112019-10-10T07:55:57 <wumpus> if something isn't going to be merged, maintainers are completely in their right to close a PR, if anything keeping it open gives the author false hope
2122019-10-10T07:56:26 <wumpus> for better or worse it's the maintainers that need to make that kind of decisions sometimes
2132019-10-10T07:57:20 <wumpus> if you'd rather have 1000 PRs open, that's up to you in your own project but it's not how bitcoin core is run, we try to actively keep track of open PRs
2142019-10-10T07:58:25 <wumpus> that's not specifically about #16681, btw, you're free to disagree with a specific decision, but IMO we're not going to change our github way of working because of it
2152019-10-10T07:58:27 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16681 | Tests: Use self.chain instead of regtest in all current tests by jtimon · Pull Request #16681 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2162019-10-10T08:01:37 <wumpus> warren: for what it's worth, I still prefer a discourse forum to any kind of mailing list, tbh, and it can be self-hosted too
2172019-10-10T08:01:51 <wumpus> google groups is terrible
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2192019-10-10T08:06:56 <wumpus> bitcoin-core-dev is just an announcement list, we could do without it, there are plenty of other ways to announce RCs and versions (we used to have a "sendy" instance for announcements and that broke, too, mail is just awful nowadays)
2202019-10-10T08:13:11 <kallewoof> wumpus: I 100% agree with you. The only problem here is that the maintainer has no way of knowing whether something is or isn't going to get merged. Unless the maintainer decides, in which case the maintainer owns bitcoin core and we can all just go home now.
2212019-10-10T08:14:02 <wumpus> it's a lot more subtle than that, and I'd agree with you in case of consensus changes and such
2222019-10-10T08:14:25 <wumpus> but MarcoFalke is tests maintainer, for better or worse he has the last vote what goes into the test framework
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2242019-10-10T08:16:36 <kallewoof> wumpus: side question, but where is this information to be found? (who maintains what, I mean)
2252019-10-10T08:17:04 <wumpus> I think there needs to be some kind of direction in those things, to make progress, and that also means they can make mistakes, and you're free to disagree with them and start a discussion like this, but I don't like the way you do this now
2262019-10-10T08:17:22 <wumpus> like generalize immediately
2272019-10-10T08:18:18 <kallewoof> this has been on my mind for some time, but maybe you're right that I'm overgeneralizing. Apologies.
2282019-10-10T08:18:32 <wumpus> kallewoof: currently nowhere, would be useful to have a CODEOWNERS fiel https://github.blog/2017-07-06-introducing-code-owners/
2292019-10-10T08:19:11 <kallewoof> Ooo... didn't know that feature existed. Neat.
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2332019-10-10T08:39:11 <wumpus> kallewoof: anyhow if #16681 matters to you and you want to see it merged, just pitch in there directly
2342019-10-10T08:39:12 <jonatack> kallewoof: IIRC the maintainer roles were mentioned in one of the core.dev transcripts from last June, though from observing interaction in the repository the roles seem fairly clear
2352019-10-10T08:39:13 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16681 | Tests: Use self.chain instead of regtest in all current tests by jtimon · Pull Request #16681 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2362019-10-10T08:40:32 <wumpus> people haven't done that, it seems everyone is a bit ~0 about it (or slightly against it), no one is super enthousiatic about the change yet, which might be enough to get it merged anyway
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2392019-10-10T08:40:54 <wumpus> that's, constructive at least
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2432019-10-10T09:00:25 <Bullit> My mailclient is Thunderbird
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2472019-10-10T09:05:32 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #17094: doc: Add CODEOWNERS file (master...2019_10_codeowners) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17094
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2522019-10-10T09:15:27 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] darosior closed pull request #15346: cli: encryptwallet password entered from stdin. fixes #15318 (master...cli_encryptwallet_stdin) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15346
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2902019-10-10T11:10:29 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5cb1d938a1c9...b67ca4ee73d1
2912019-10-10T11:10:29 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master facb9a1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: init: Change fallback locale to C.UTF-8
2922019-10-10T11:10:30 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b67ca4e Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #17085: init: Change fallback locale to C.UTF-8
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2952019-10-10T11:10:48 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #17085: init: Change fallback locale to C.UTF-8 (master...2019_10_utf8_fallback) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17085
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3052019-10-10T11:27:11 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #17095: util: Filter control characters out of log messages (master...2019_10_log_control_chars) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17095
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3072019-10-10T11:41:36 <luke-jr> wumpus: is there a reason to not have spaces on both sides of the colon for a item for-loop
3082019-10-10T11:41:37 <luke-jr> ?
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3102019-10-10T11:44:44 <wumpus> is there a reason to? I don't care, if people prefer that I'll do that
3112019-10-10T11:47:33 <luke-jr> dunno, just noticed the difference
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3172019-10-10T11:58:23 <kanzure> one argument in favor of keeping a maintained mailing list is that there's tens of thousands of subscribers and many of them rely on this for critical security announcements
3182019-10-10T11:58:38 <kanzure> anyway, meeting with warren in person soon to see why he wanted to meet
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3242019-10-10T12:12:12 <wumpus> that needs an announcements list, not so much a mailing list
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3262019-10-10T12:12:39 <wumpus> (e.g. something like sendy or mailgun or whatever would work too)
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3382019-10-10T13:20:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b67ca4ee73d1...2352aec9fc82
3392019-10-10T13:20:36 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0a57368 practicalswift: tests: Add fuzzing harness for CheckTransaction(...), IsStandardTx(...) an...
3402019-10-10T13:20:37 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5c29876 practicalswift: tests: Remove TRANSACTION_DESERIALIZE (replaced by transaction fuzzer)
3412019-10-10T13:20:37 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2352aec MarcoFalke: Merge #17076: tests: Add fuzzing harness for CheckTransaction(...), IsStan...
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3462019-10-10T13:20:56 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17076: tests: Add fuzzing harness for CheckTransaction(...), IsStandardTx(...) and other CTransaction related functions (master...fuzzers-transaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17076
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3552019-10-10T13:33:09 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Zero-1729 opened pull request #17096: gui: rename debug window (master...rename-debug-window) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17096
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3752019-10-10T14:06:42 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2352aec9fc82...2a0164085b00
3762019-10-10T14:06:43 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3530108 Antoine Riard: MOVEONLY : move RPC wallets helpers to TransactionDescriptionString
3772019-10-10T14:06:43 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f4c8953 Antoine Riard: Add missing fields in TransactionDescriptionString and others
3782019-10-10T14:06:44 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2a01640 MarcoFalke: Merge #16689: rpc: add missing fields to wallet rpc help output
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3812019-10-10T14:07:11 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16689: rpc: add missing fields to wallet rpc help output (master...2019-08-missing-fields-rpcs-help) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16689
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3852019-10-10T14:19:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #17089: ci: Add test env for riscv (master...1909-ciRiscV) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17089
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3982019-10-10T14:52:00 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #17097: build: Add README.md to DIST target (master...1909-buildDocDist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17097
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4352019-10-10T16:14:54 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2a0164085b00...59f0687fea26
4362019-10-10T16:14:55 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a57a1d4 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: add unit test for wallet watch-only methods involving PubKeys
4372019-10-10T16:14:56 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 59f0687 MarcoFalke: Merge #16786: test: add unit test for wallet watch-only methods involving ...
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4402019-10-10T16:15:24 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16786: test: add unit test for wallet watch-only methods involving PubKeys (master...add_wallet_watchpubkey_unit_test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16786
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4442019-10-10T16:21:40 <warren> wumpus: regarding discourse vs mailing list, I'm happy that anyone expressed an opinion at all!
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4512019-10-10T16:29:09 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] adamjonas opened pull request #17098: refactor: Feebumper EstimateFeeRate (master...16727-follow-up) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17098
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4552019-10-10T16:30:29 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dongcarl opened pull request #17099: depends: Eliminate hard dependency on Ubuntu-ABI specific clang (master...2019-09-no-clang-download) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17099
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4582019-10-10T16:35:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/59f0687fea26...befdef8aee89
4592019-10-10T16:35:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 230d43f Pieter Wuille: Abstract out some of the descriptor Span-parsing helpers
4602019-10-10T16:35:08 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5e69aee Pieter Wuille: Add documenting comments to spanparsing.h
4612019-10-10T16:35:08 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bb36372 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: add unit tests for Span-parsing helpers
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4642019-10-10T16:35:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16887: Abstract out some of the descriptor Span-parsing helpers (master...201909_spanparsing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16887
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4702019-10-10T16:50:54 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] praveenkumar141 opened pull request #17100: Update README.md (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17100
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4732019-10-10T16:52:04 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #17100: Update README.md (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17100
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4752019-10-10T16:52:20 <fanquake> wumpus / sipa can you ban praveenkumar141 from the repo.
4762019-10-10T16:53:57 <sipa> sure; what did he do?
4772019-10-10T16:54:07 <sipa> ah, i just get the email
4782019-10-10T16:55:05 <sipa> done
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4842019-10-10T17:05:30 <fanquake> Thanks
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4912019-10-10T17:21:29 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/befdef8aee89...d5a770b70d55
4922019-10-10T17:21:30 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d478a47 Martin Zumsande: test: Fix combine_logs.py for AppVeyor build
4932019-10-10T17:21:30 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d5a770b MarcoFalke: Merge #16973: test: Fix combine_logs.py for AppVeyor build
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4972019-10-10T17:21:59 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16973: test: Fix combine_logs.py for AppVeyor build (master...201909_test_pathsep) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16973
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5132019-10-10T17:47:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #17101: test PR (master...residency_test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17101
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5192019-10-10T17:55:18 <MarcoFalke> kallewoof: Just saw your complaint that me closing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16681#issuecomment-539694699 was a "power move"
5202019-10-10T17:55:46 <MarcoFalke> I disagree. Usually I don't close pull requests unless they are obvioulsy never going to get merged
5212019-10-10T17:56:35 <MarcoFalke> If I think a pull request should be closed, I state my reasons for doing so and wait for the author to close it or agree it can be closed
5222019-10-10T17:56:55 <MarcoFalke> In this case jtimon's response was "In that case, I guess we should close this."
5232019-10-10T17:57:15 <MarcoFalke> Which I read as permission to close the pull request
5242019-10-10T17:57:36 <MarcoFalke> Let me know if there is anything I did wrong or should improve
5252019-10-10T17:57:36 *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5262019-10-10T17:57:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #17101: test PR (master...residency_test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17101
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5442019-10-10T18:26:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift reopened pull request #16136: Add an optional extra level of checking: DCHECK(...) - an opt-in side-effect safe assert(...) (master...check) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16136
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5482019-10-10T18:30:26 <jtimon> MarcoFalke: I think it was as misanderstanding. By "in that case" I meant "in case those reasons aren't good enough", which I thought it was obvious I disagreed with.
5492019-10-10T18:30:27 <jtimon> I don't think that is the case, I think those reasons are good enoug. What I mean if that those reasons don't convince other people, we can close it.
5502019-10-10T18:30:27 <jtimon> In any case, if more people agree with my reasons, the best place to say is probably the PR itself
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5522019-10-10T18:32:44 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #16681: Tests: Use self.chain instead of 'regtest' in all current tests (master...b19-testchains-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16681
5532019-10-10T18:32:51 <MarcoFalke> Ok, reopened it
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5552019-10-10T18:33:52 <jtimon> thanks
5562019-10-10T18:45:03 <elichai2> wow :/
5572019-10-10T18:45:12 <elichai2> ops, sorry
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5672019-10-10T19:00:10 <sipa> meetung?
5682019-10-10T19:00:21 <achow101> meeting?
5692019-10-10T19:00:22 <wumpus> #startmeeting
5702019-10-10T19:00:22 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 10 19:00:22 2019 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
5712019-10-10T19:00:22 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
5722019-10-10T19:00:25 <kanzure> hi
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5742019-10-10T19:00:39 <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral
5752019-10-10T19:00:44 <promag> hello
5762019-10-10T19:00:47 <gleb> hi
5772019-10-10T19:00:48 <jonatack> hi
5782019-10-10T19:01:05 <fanquake> hi
5792019-10-10T19:01:09 <sipa> hi
5802019-10-10T19:01:12 <elichai2> hi
5812019-10-10T19:01:21 <provoostenator> hi
5822019-10-10T19:01:29 <meshcollider> hi
5832019-10-10T19:01:44 <wumpus> has anyone been testing 0.19.0rc1? any issues found?
5842019-10-10T19:02:01 <fanquake> Limited testing so far. Nothing obvious has cropped up.
5852019-10-10T19:02:04 *** sdaftuar has quit IRC
5862019-10-10T19:02:05 <MarcoFalke> hoy
5872019-10-10T19:02:08 <fanquake> Will do more over the weekend.
5882019-10-10T19:02:28 <jonasschnelli> hi
5892019-10-10T19:02:30 <wumpus> same, no problems here
5902019-10-10T19:02:34 <achow101> hi
5912019-10-10T19:02:52 <MarcoFalke> Would be surprised if this was the first major release without bugs xD
5922019-10-10T19:02:52 * jonasschnelli running 0.19.0rc1
5932019-10-10T19:03:08 <wumpus> we should definitely give it some more time :)
5942019-10-10T19:03:56 *** sdaftuar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5952019-10-10T19:04:03 <real_or_random> hi
5962019-10-10T19:04:07 <promag> spinning as usual
5972019-10-10T19:04:20 <wumpus> we have one proposed topic: #16834 (BlueMatt)
5982019-10-10T19:04:21 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16834 | Fetch Headers over DNS by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #16834 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5992019-10-10T19:04:27 <fanquake> A couple PRs to pull in at some point as well. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+label%3A%22Needs+backport+%280.19%29%22
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6012019-10-10T19:04:30 <BlueMatt> yea, I need to find some time to switch my seed nodes to 190rc1
6022019-10-10T19:04:41 <BlueMatt> will do this coming week
6032019-10-10T19:04:50 <wumpus> but we'll start with high priority for review again
6042019-10-10T19:04:55 *** jkczyz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
6052019-10-10T19:04:57 <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
6062019-10-10T19:05:20 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 only three blockers on the list right now
6072019-10-10T19:05:39 <fanquake> #16202 Had quite a few ACKs, however needs a rebase jonasschnelli
6082019-10-10T19:05:41 <wumpus> #16202 is close to merge?
6092019-10-10T19:05:41 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16202 | Refactor network message deserialization by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #16202 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6102019-10-10T19:05:44 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16202 | Refactor network message deserialization by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #16202 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6112019-10-10T19:05:58 <jonasschnelli> Oh. Let me rebase then
6122019-10-10T19:06:05 <MarcoFalke> I'd like to put up #16490
6132019-10-10T19:06:07 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16490 | rpc: Report reason for replaceable txpool transactions by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #16490 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6142019-10-10T19:06:32 <dongcarl> I think most of the comments in #16202 expand on the scope, and should be followups. They're all ACKs otherwise
6152019-10-10T19:06:34 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16202 | Refactor network message deserialization by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #16202 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6162019-10-10T19:07:03 <jnewbery> hi
6172019-10-10T19:07:07 <MarcoFalke> I removed the "Bugs in 0.19 are blockers" card in high prio
6182019-10-10T19:07:18 <wumpus> MarcoFalke: added
6192019-10-10T19:07:22 <MarcoFalke> thx
6202019-10-10T19:07:59 <provoostenator> I'd like to nominate #16944, pretty close anyway...
6212019-10-10T19:08:01 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16944 | gui: create PSBT with watch-only wallet by Sjors · Pull Request #16944 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6222019-10-10T19:08:20 <wumpus> dongcarl: right, especially so early in the release window it's better to merge, then expanding the scope in follow-ups, it allows for better cooporation
6232019-10-10T19:09:20 <wumpus> provoostenator: ok added
6242019-10-10T19:09:43 <jonasschnelli> my only worry is, that with 16944 the GUI gets even more complicated
6252019-10-10T19:09:52 <fanquake> ^
6262019-10-10T19:09:57 <jonasschnelli> But maybe okay for watch-only expertish setups
6272019-10-10T19:10:08 <wumpus> #topic gui: create PSBT with watch-only wallet
6282019-10-10T19:10:19 <jonasschnelli> but I need to take a closer look at 16944 before I further complain
6292019-10-10T19:11:20 <provoostenator> jonasschnelli: it's going to get more complicated if we ever add full hardware support
6302019-10-10T19:11:31 <provoostenator> See also: #16966
6312019-10-10T19:11:33 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16966 | ui: make send a wizard by Sjors · Pull Request #16966 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6322019-10-10T19:12:08 <provoostenator> That wizard PR should make it easier to add more stuff, because we're not squeezing a million things in one dialog.
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6342019-10-10T19:13:02 <wumpus> yes
6352019-10-10T19:13:17 <promag> yup
6362019-10-10T19:13:37 <fanquake> provoostenator: how does what your doing aling/conflict with what the HWI project is doing GUI wise?
6372019-10-10T19:13:42 <fanquake> *align
6382019-10-10T19:13:56 <fanquake> I've seen discussions on their repo about adding some sort of GUI.
6392019-10-10T19:14:14 <provoostenator> It's the reverse approach, it can co-exist
6402019-10-10T19:14:47 <jonasschnelli> however, the function itself (PSBT creation in watch-only mode) is certainly a strong concept ack,... just need to watch out for the UX
6412019-10-10T19:14:50 <achow101> The idea is to have some gui for HWI where users can paste the psbt from 16944 instead of having to go to the command line
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6432019-10-10T19:16:02 <provoostenator> In the longer run I'd rather not force users to have 2 GUIs to deal with, but in the short run an HWI GUI is easier.
6442019-10-10T19:17:11 <jonasschnelli> I totally get the use case... just copy pasting from one UI to another is not a UX users appreciate in general. However, I'm not saying this is how it could be done initially
6452019-10-10T19:17:21 <fanquake> At a high level, not necessarily in regards to this PR, I'm hesitant to add more & more flows/functionality to Cores GUI. However I'll present my thoughts another time.
6462019-10-10T19:17:29 <provoostenator> I plan to build a hardware wallet GUI on top of the wizard above.
6472019-10-10T19:17:50 <provoostenator> As well as some options to the create wallet dialog.
6482019-10-10T19:18:15 <jonasschnelli> I think that would be great. Thanks provoostenator
6492019-10-10T19:18:47 <achow101> yeah, the two gui things is just a stop-gap measure, just like how the importmulti thing was a stop-gap
6502019-10-10T19:19:22 <fanquake> Should we move on? bluematt & DNS & Rust ?
6512019-10-10T19:19:40 <wumpus> right, got to have it working first, then think about streamlining it
6522019-10-10T19:19:40 <elichai2> :)
6532019-10-10T19:20:11 <fanquake> Has also been some good Rust related discussion in #17090 so far.
6542019-10-10T19:20:13 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17090 | RFC: Rust code integration · Issue #17090 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6552019-10-10T19:20:17 <wumpus> #topic Fetch Headers over DNS (BlueMatt)
6562019-10-10T19:20:19 <BlueMatt> so #17090 is where the high-level discussion has moved, and there's good comments there to read, but, at a high level, I want to move forward with (in 0.20, off by default, with a goal of on by default/in release bins in 0.21) work to enable parallel p2p and block/header download in rust.
6572019-10-10T19:20:21 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17090 | RFC: Rust code integration · Issue #17090 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6582019-10-10T19:20:22 <BlueMatt> the first step/merge-candidate is #16834 which just fetches headers over dns with 100 loc in rust or so. I want to change the format of the dns responses but otherwise (mod some review from elichai2 I need to respond to) I think its "ready to go"
6592019-10-10T19:20:23 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16834 | Fetch Headers over DNS by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #16834 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6602019-10-10T19:20:30 <BlueMatt> (sorry, I had those pre-written :p)
6612019-10-10T19:21:23 <BlueMatt> in the medium-term, I'd like a) blocks-over-http(preferably s, but ssl is Hard), and b) a full parallel p2p network implementation in rust, likely with the same protocol and with an explicit goal of being Simple and Robust
6622019-10-10T19:21:27 <fanquake> Aside from the review comments, I've discussed with Cory and there is still some build related "cleanup" that can be done there as well.
6632019-10-10T19:21:40 <wumpus> as for the high level discussion about rust, concept ACK, don't really have anything to say besides already written in #17090
6642019-10-10T19:21:41 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17090 | RFC: Rust code integration · Issue #17090 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6652019-10-10T19:21:43 <BlueMatt> but it has generated a nice little framework for building ways to download the chain
6662019-10-10T19:21:54 <achow101> time to learn rust I guess
6672019-10-10T19:22:04 <wumpus> as for fetching headers over DNS ... interesting idea, doesn't it put a lot of strain on the DNS resolver to have a request per block?
6682019-10-10T19:22:07 <cfields> I think if we're going to discuss here, we should split this topic in two.
6692019-10-10T19:22:45 <BlueMatt> wumpus: probably, but its partially a demo, and partially a thing that you could theoretically use in conjunction with the Dns-over-https-over-cloudflare stuff people are looking at putting in systemd....
6702019-10-10T19:22:52 <cfields> (Or maybe the higher level discussions belong on 17090)
6712019-10-10T19:23:05 <wumpus> so it's good for the last-to-end bocks, but not for getting the entire chain, I guess
6722019-10-10T19:23:13 <BlueMatt> I think there's a few open questions here that we may want to discuss
6732019-10-10T19:23:20 <BlueMatt> biggest is just what rustc version do we target
6742019-10-10T19:23:45 <BlueMatt> wumpus: my model for eaders fetching is that it may be a good censorship *detection* thing, so even if it just gets a few more headers than you have blocks, thats ok
6752019-10-10T19:23:57 <wumpus> whatever is in bionic would be most convenient I guess
6762019-10-10T19:24:02 <elichai2> I agree with BlueMatt on the rustc version.
6772019-10-10T19:24:03 <BlueMatt> as long as it can generate a "you may be censored" warning, which p2p could take an turn on more aggressive options, as well as warn the user
6782019-10-10T19:24:26 <elichai2> wumpus: that means 1.36
6792019-10-10T19:24:29 <cfields> Right, we've discussed this a bit briefly. Because we don't yet have any rust code, and it won't be a build-time requirement, it makes sense imo to require the version that delivers whatever features we need. If that's bleeding-edge, so be it.
6802019-10-10T19:24:38 <BlueMatt> looks like bionic has a newer rustc than debian stable
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6822019-10-10T19:24:46 <BlueMatt> (1.36 instead of 1.34)
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6842019-10-10T19:24:55 <MarcoFalke> we need bionic for gitian building
6852019-10-10T19:25:15 <BlueMatt> I dont think we're gonna ship rust code in release until dongcarl figures out guix stuff
6862019-10-10T19:25:30 <BlueMatt> but I *do* think we don't want to break debian stable (which is gonna be stable for like years)
6872019-10-10T19:26:04 <elichai2> that's weird
6882019-10-10T19:26:11 <MarcoFalke> That means the rust code is not shipped and disabled by default. What is the point then? Might as well not do it if it doesn't give any advantage
6892019-10-10T19:26:12 <wumpus> hm it seems pretty easy to integrate it into the existing gitian
6902019-10-10T19:26:31 <wumpus> I'm not sure why make it conditional on guix, but anyhow
6912019-10-10T19:26:42 <wumpus> MarcoFalke: that's the goal in the long term at least
6922019-10-10T19:26:47 <cfields> MarcoFalke: I mean that we don't *yet* have any rust code, so we're still free to set whatever requirements we want.
6932019-10-10T19:26:51 <fanquake> BlueMatt Is there anything not in 1.34 from later versions that would be "nice to have" ?
6942019-10-10T19:26:51 <provoostenator> The new feature can be tested by folks who build manually, that's been done before
6952019-10-10T19:26:52 <cfields> That changes as soon as we lock-in.
6962019-10-10T19:26:53 <BlueMatt> MarcoFalke: well I was kinda expecting we'd want to have a good story around bootstrapping the rust code before we ship in release binaries
6972019-10-10T19:26:57 <BlueMatt> (was hoping 0.21)
6982019-10-10T19:27:05 <wumpus> I don't think it makes sense to make so many different concerns conditional on each other
6992019-10-10T19:27:06 <BlueMatt> but if we're comfortable with it, that's cool too
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7012019-10-10T19:27:30 <elichai2> fanquake: i'm going over releases now to see if there's anything really interesting after 1.34
7022019-10-10T19:27:33 <wumpus> historically that was always a bad idea because we don't really know how long things are going to take
7032019-10-10T19:27:46 <MarcoFalke> for gitian you need to trust Ubuntu either way, so there is no downgrade in trusting the Bionic rustc
7042019-10-10T19:28:06 <jnewbery> I'm worried that in this medium-term world where we have a shiny new rust p2p implementation, we'll have even fewer people making and reviewing changes in the c++ p2p implementation
7052019-10-10T19:28:17 <BlueMatt> I suppose this is true....ubuntu did bootstrap rust themselves.....
7062019-10-10T19:28:44 <BlueMatt> jnewbery: my anticipation is that the "shiny new rust p2p implementation" was explicitly "thou may not relay transactions nor add anything 'complicated'"
7072019-10-10T19:28:46 <fanquake> jnewbery: atleast that should be somewhat offset by the major p2p reviewers not being Rust devs, as far as I'm aware.
7082019-10-10T19:28:50 <BlueMatt> so that would hopefully limit that somewhat
7092019-10-10T19:29:01 <fanquake> aside from bluematt that is.
7102019-10-10T19:29:39 <wumpus> jnewbery: I mean, you can never control wat people will review and contribute to
7112019-10-10T19:29:55 <elichai2> 1. better hashmap. 2.alloc crate. 3. #[must_use]. 4. `--offline` to cargo. 5. armv7-unknown-freebsd-gnueabihf, armv6-unknown-freebsd-gnueabihf, wasm32-unknown-wasi support.
7122019-10-10T19:30:05 <elichai2> i don't think any of them matter but 1.34.2 fixed a CVE
7132019-10-10T19:30:14 <jnewbery> wumpus: right, I agree with that. I certainly wouldn't want to tell anyone what they should work on
7142019-10-10T19:30:17 <BlueMatt> right, debian does have 1.34.2, not 1.34
7152019-10-10T19:30:17 <wumpus> jnewbery: it sounds a bit childish to not include rust code because you're afraid developers will look at that code more :)
7162019-10-10T19:30:19 <elichai2> that's the debian supported version
7172019-10-10T19:30:29 <cfields> elichai2: is 2. needed for overriding malloc?
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7192019-10-10T19:30:50 <elichai2> cfields: no. it's just a way to link against liballoc and not libstd
7202019-10-10T19:30:50 <ysangkok> wouldn't it make sense to drop support for debian once guix makes it really easier to build the same thing on all platforms?
7212019-10-10T19:30:50 <wumpus> also, it might also get new people interested, you never know
7222019-10-10T19:30:51 <BlueMatt> cfields: no, only 1.28 is required for GlobalAlloc
7232019-10-10T19:31:05 <cfields> Ok, thanks.
7242019-10-10T19:31:06 <elichai2> (making binaries smaller and further support for embedded)
7252019-10-10T19:31:28 <fanquake> wumpus: hopefully
7262019-10-10T19:31:35 <jnewbery> wumpus: I'm not sure it's childish. I think it's a valid concern thta when there aren't many developers looking at a component, then reimplementing it in a different language may make the situation worse
7272019-10-10T19:32:02 <MarcoFalke> ysangkok: That is the long-term goal, but won't happen before Bitcoin Core 0.21.0
7282019-10-10T19:32:12 <provoostenator> I would probably feel more embolded reviewing c++ p2p code if there was a fresh Rust version to compare with
7292019-10-10T19:32:18 <BlueMatt> elichai2: well luckily all but 3 there dont require changes to our code, so we can build with newer rustc and get those features, even if we "support" older ones
7302019-10-10T19:32:18 <wumpus> jnewbery: but only if you see the set of dvelopers looking at the code as a closed set, I hope that's not the case in the medium term
7312019-10-10T19:33:26 <elichai2> BlueMatt: yeah I shoud've dropped 1 because that's transparent to impl. but 2 isn't. altough I don't think we care about it that much (maybe for compiling to some exotic target that doesn't support libstd)
7322019-10-10T19:33:48 <BlueMatt> right, I dont think core is gonna support wasm so that may be ok :p
7332019-10-10T19:34:48 <elichai2> oh another thing in 1.35 is musl support. although again that doesn't bother implementors. only the users who compile (a user can compile the same code both to x86_64-gnu and x86_64-musl) https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/58575
7342019-10-10T19:35:16 <elichai2> IMHO 1.34.2 it is
7352019-10-10T19:35:28 <midnightmagic> musl appears to be a popular target for supporting e.g. BE on POWER9
7362019-10-10T19:35:33 <BlueMatt> kool, unless there are other obections seems like at least that issue is fine
7372019-10-10T19:36:13 <wumpus> people that want to use musl can just use a newer rust, right?
7382019-10-10T19:36:28 <BlueMatt> midnightmagic: right, just means those users will need a newer rustc, even though we "support" older ones
7392019-10-10T19:36:29 <elichai2> yes
7402019-10-10T19:36:29 <wumpus> that it supports 1.35 doesn't mean you need to build with that...
7412019-10-10T19:36:30 <BlueMatt> yep
7422019-10-10T19:36:47 <elichai2> the target support should only conserned released binaries I think
7432019-10-10T19:37:17 <midnightmagic> sure, just making observation that it appears some (highly competent) people are liking the musl
7442019-10-10T19:37:26 <BlueMatt> right
7452019-10-10T19:37:30 <midnightmagic> \o
7462019-10-10T19:37:43 <elichai2> so as long as all released binaries are for x86 windows/gnu(glibc) then I don't think any of that other stuff matter. users can use 1.38 to compile to musl/armv7/riscv32i etc.
7472019-10-10T19:38:05 <cfields> *armv7-bsd
7482019-10-10T19:38:05 <wumpus> released binaries are glibc only
7492019-10-10T19:38:25 <wumpus> I'm sure that could change inthe future, but that's a wholly different concern
7502019-10-10T19:38:26 <BlueMatt> right, and you'll at least be able to turn it off at compile time for the forseeable future
7512019-10-10T19:38:53 <cfields> elichai2 and I have a longer-term plan for rust/libc world domination anyway.
7522019-10-10T19:39:05 <BlueMatt> another thing that may be worth mentioning here is that for the bitcoin core-required bits of stratumv2 (ie a getblocktemplate replacement) there has been some initial speculation/thinking that it would be in rust
7532019-10-10T19:40:16 <elichai2> cfields: don't know too much about armv7 but something changed even for the linux variants lately https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/63107/
7542019-10-10T19:40:29 <MarcoFalke> so the windows,mac,and arm releases couldn't come with any rust code compiled in?
7552019-10-10T19:40:36 <MarcoFalke> only the x86 ones?
7562019-10-10T19:41:03 <BlueMatt> no they totally could
7572019-10-10T19:41:13 <BlueMatt> all of those platforms are "well supported"
7582019-10-10T19:41:36 <BlueMatt> power may be more of a question (as its "second tier" support or some shit like that), but I've never had issues with rust on power9 and thats my main dev machine
7592019-10-10T19:42:13 <wumpus> rust works very well on ARM 32 and 64, windows/mac is also well supported
7602019-10-10T19:42:20 <MarcoFalke> we don't have power yet: #14066
7612019-10-10T19:42:22 <cfields> yeah, I'm a bit confused about that PR. I think it's a bit more subtle than "armv7 wasn't supported but is now".
7622019-10-10T19:42:23 <wumpus> risc-v linux is still a problem right now
7632019-10-10T19:42:43 <elichai2> I really don't know a lot about arm and there are too many target triples for armv7 for me to know what's what lol
7642019-10-10T19:42:47 <wumpus> then again, that will be resolved soon, I'm sure it won't be in a year or so
7652019-10-10T19:42:48 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14066 | gitian-linux: Build binaries for 64-bit POWER by luke-jr · Pull Request #14066 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
7662019-10-10T19:42:58 <elichai2> wumpus: which target triple is "normal arm"?
7672019-10-10T19:43:05 <wumpus> arm-linux-gnueabi
7682019-10-10T19:43:10 <wumpus> hf
7692019-10-10T19:43:38 <elichai2> yeah. that's Tier 2 with cargo+rustc+libstd. good support :)
7702019-10-10T19:43:39 <BlueMatt> do we support hard forking? </badjoke>
7712019-10-10T19:43:54 <wumpus> arm64 is aarch64-linux-gnu
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7732019-10-10T19:44:23 <wumpus> both can run the compiler as well as cross compile for
7742019-10-10T19:44:38 <fanquake> Getting a bit into the weeds here. Does anyone else have a meeting topic for the last 15 minutes? Otherwise I can we can continue Rust discussion/
7752019-10-10T19:44:40 <elichai2> yep same. the `gnueabi` and `musleabi` are the ones who changed
7762019-10-10T19:45:01 <wumpus> I don't think there's any other topics
7772019-10-10T19:45:41 <wumpus> #endmeeting
7782019-10-10T19:45:41 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 10 19:45:41 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
7792019-10-10T19:45:41 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-10-19.00.html
7802019-10-10T19:45:41 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-10-19.00.txt
7812019-10-10T19:45:41 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-10-10-19.00.log.html
7822019-10-10T19:45:43 <BlueMatt> I mean so it sounds like conclusions are: 1.36(at least, if not older) target for "supported"
7832019-10-10T19:45:57 <BlueMatt> and also review #16834
7842019-10-10T19:45:58 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16834 | Fetch Headers over DNS by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #16834 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
7852019-10-10T19:46:25 <jeremyrubin> Sorry -- was running late but just caught up
7862019-10-10T19:46:35 <fanquake> BlueMatt: could you summarize into #17090 ?
7872019-10-10T19:46:36 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17090 | RFC: Rust code integration · Issue #17090 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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7892019-10-10T19:46:39 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #10593: Relax punishment for peers relaying invalid blocks and headers (master...relax_invblk_punishment) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10593
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7922019-10-10T19:46:59 <BlueMatt> fanquake: will do
7932019-10-10T19:47:07 <fanquake> BlueMatt: cheers
7942019-10-10T19:48:00 <jeremyrubin> My general feeling is we should keep the version flexible until we're looking to put it in a release, echoing cfields. If we want experimental features, so be it. One nice thing is that it's easily doable to link multiple rust versions if needed, afaict
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7972019-10-10T19:49:08 <jeremyrubin> So if there's a set of non-experimental rust that is going to build against the stable, it'd be fine to have experimental extensions too which are nightly. Especially if we're looking at big modules (like a blocks over DNS thing)
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7992019-10-10T19:52:11 <BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: I dunno about nightly rust, but I don't know that anyone would really disagree about "revisit rustc requirement in the future if we need something"
8002019-10-10T19:52:44 <BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: but, at least personally, I'd be really, really, really heasitant to do that unless we really need something, and eg super new features like async/await probably need at least a year or two before we'd even remotely consider them.
8012019-10-10T19:52:59 <BlueMatt> (and, short that, there isnt a ton of shiny newness we want, imo)
8022019-10-10T19:54:27 <jeremyrubin> That's roughly what I had in mind. personally I'm dreading async/await being more popular though, and don't think we'll necessarily want to use it at all.
8032019-10-10T19:54:59 <BlueMatt> same
8042019-10-10T19:55:44 <Bullit> Remember units such as ¨ton¨ are still strange
8052019-10-10T19:55:45 <elichai2> async/await is mostly sugar syntaxing. most of the usability is already there just looks ugly
8062019-10-10T19:56:28 <jeremyrubin> elichai2: I'm unexcited for people using it more ;)
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8092019-10-10T20:00:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d5a770b70d55...08ed87e8875d
8102019-10-10T20:00:36 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 86b9f92 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Add detailed info about Bitcoin Core files
8112019-10-10T20:00:37 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 08ed87e MarcoFalke: Merge #16983: doc: Add detailed info about Bitcoin Core files
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8142019-10-10T20:00:56 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16983: doc: Add detailed info about Bitcoin Core files (master...20190929-files) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16983
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8162019-10-10T20:01:45 <instagibbs> jonasschnelli, 16944 fits a small usability niche that I appreciate. After that I don't think there's more "feature creep" until someone wants full fledged offline signer wizard, which is a much larger change
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8182019-10-10T20:02:52 <jonasschnelli> Yeah. I kinda also appreciate. I guess its also pretty isolated to not scare non PSBT users
8192019-10-10T20:04:58 <instagibbs> yes, if it wasn't really small change set and hidden to normal users I'd be -1 on it
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8242019-10-10T20:10:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #17102: doc: Add missing indexes/blockfilter/basic to doc/files.md (master...1909-docFilesBlockFilterIndex) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17102
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8262019-10-10T20:15:02 <ysangkok> jeremyrubin: what is your concern with await/async?
8272019-10-10T20:24:24 <jeremyrubin> Generally I think that willy-nilly await/async leads to deadlock/race conditions and non-deterministic execution.
8282019-10-10T20:25:02 <jeremyrubin> Even if Rust permits us to be more broad in the parallelism we use in Bitcoin, I think this generally points to still closely guarded/scoped parallelism.
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8302019-10-10T20:27:17 <jeremyrubin> I don't like how infectuos await/async is either. Because soon lots of libraries will use/abuse await/async and those types will 'infect' your code to an extent.
8312019-10-10T20:27:45 <BlueMatt> add it to the long list of gripes over the rust ecosystem :/
8322019-10-10T20:28:07 <jeremyrubin> Luckily, for Bitcoin, if we aren't making much use of await/async we'll mostly be able to avoid it as we're not going to be relying on a huge number of crates
8332019-10-10T20:30:12 <jeremyrubin> I think overall it's a good thing; it's going to make rust much more suitable for general application development, which will draw more users, which means more review/investment etc etc. But I doubt the async/await features will be super useful for nitty-gritty systems engineering, which is the original focus for rust.
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8672019-10-10T21:25:34 <sipa> qt/rpcconsole.cpp:1287:1: warning: control reaches end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type]
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8692019-10-10T21:35:59 <promag> I was under the impression it wouldn't be a problem (as in it wouldn't complain) if there were a case X: for each enum value
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8722019-10-10T21:38:06 <promag> should add a default: on the last case?
8732019-10-10T21:38:29 <promag> default: assert(false) ?
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9002019-10-10T22:34:35 <luke-jr> sipa: promag: default:assert(false) just breaks the warning :/
9012019-10-10T22:35:07 <luke-jr> best to cover each case explicitly, so when/if the enum gets a value added, the warning comes back if it's not added here too
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9032019-10-10T22:37:19 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ch4ot1c opened pull request #17104: [WIP] build: `make dist` uses `git archive` (master...build/archive-dist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17104
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9052019-10-10T22:40:06 <sipa> luke-jr: i have not checked the code, but i believe the problem is that the warning is emitted despite all enum values being covered in the switch
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9072019-10-10T22:41:28 <luke-jr> oh, that's weird
9082019-10-10T22:41:47 <luke-jr> well, maybe not, different warning
9092019-10-10T22:41:52 <luke-jr> add assert(false) after the switch?
9102019-10-10T22:42:08 <luke-jr> that way the switch will still warn if it's missing a value
9112019-10-10T22:42:34 <Bullit> Which switch are you planing on using they all about bottom
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9162019-10-10T23:04:21 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #17105: gui: Add missing return value in RPCConsole::tabShortcut (master...2019-10-fix-warning) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17105
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