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962017-04-29T12:50:15 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c924011f535...80c3a734298e
972017-04-29T12:50:15 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dd1ea59 Jimmy Song: [test] Add gettxout call...
982017-04-29T12:50:16 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 80c3a73 MarcoFalke: Merge #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py...
992017-04-29T12:50:31 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py (master...test_gettxout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10256
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1442017-04-29T17:58:50 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #10299: Remove OpenSSL (master...simplerandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10299
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1462017-04-29T18:35:44 <gmaxwell> wumpus: your comment is needed at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/440
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1512017-04-29T18:55:09 <BlueMatt> sipa: re: 10299: I dont think thats 100% true? doesn't openssl's rng also pull other random things on some oses?
1522017-04-29T18:55:16 <BlueMatt> at least win used to take a screenshot or something like that, no?
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1542017-04-29T18:56:08 <gmaxwell> look at the code sipa is removing, -- it has the screenshot addition stuff.
1552017-04-29T18:56:25 <gmaxwell> I don't care how things are split into PRs however.
1562017-04-29T18:57:20 <BlueMatt> ah, apologies
1572017-04-29T18:57:48 <sipa> BlueMatt: for windows, yes, it removes all that. i can't imagine it's useful these days
1582017-04-29T18:58:27 <sipa> but i don't know what openssl is using on netbsd that would still result in much useful entropy, if dev/urandom etc are broken
1592017-04-29T18:59:07 <BlueMatt> are y'all gonna revive the librng idea?
1602017-04-29T18:59:09 <BlueMatt> (please do)
1612017-04-29T18:59:24 * jonasschnelli thinks of someone who gives out recommendation to open minesweeper before starting Core.
1622017-04-29T18:59:41 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: concurrency makes it too hard.
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1642017-04-29T19:00:01 <BlueMatt> ok, so librng-no-concurrency?
1652017-04-29T19:00:08 <sipa> gmaxwell: if it's purely gathering entropy, it's mucb easier
1662017-04-29T19:00:11 <gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC openssl also adds a number of system things into the entropy pool. Not as extensive as what we did before.
1672017-04-29T19:00:14 <BlueMatt> or that
1682017-04-29T19:00:29 <BlueMatt> libgivemeentropy
1692017-04-29T19:00:30 <gmaxwell> well. I posted code before, sipa extended in and C++ ified it.
1702017-04-29T19:00:41 <BlueMatt> yes, my question was if y'all were gonna pull that back in
1712017-04-29T19:00:43 <BlueMatt> (please do!)
1722017-04-29T19:00:50 <gmaxwell> s/in/it/
1732017-04-29T19:00:56 <sipa> yes, i'm all for that, but i think it's pretty orthogonal to getting rid of openssl
1742017-04-29T19:01:25 <BlueMatt> orthogonal, maybe, but I'd prefer to see them in the same release
1752017-04-29T19:02:06 <gmaxwell> next we will suggest storing that state in a memory map of its own, so its not contiguous with other variables that could bleed. :P
1762017-04-29T19:02:18 <jonasschnelli> Would unpack stuff from #5885 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5885/files#diff-35f8a407f8c21cda300a45f50b6e9c74L5) make sense?
1772017-04-29T19:02:19 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5885 | [WIP] Replace OpenSSL PRNG with built-in Fortuna implementation by sipa · Pull Request #5885 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1782017-04-29T19:02:35 <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if you think I'm asking too much, feel free to shoot it down....
1792017-04-29T19:02:43 <BlueMatt> i have no idea how much work there is there
1802017-04-29T19:03:28 <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no I agree with you.
1812017-04-29T19:03:50 <gmaxwell> I don't care if its in this PR however, but it should be in the same release.
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1832017-04-29T19:04:17 <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it's (fun) overkill
1842017-04-29T19:04:26 <gmaxwell> what I'd proposed before is we do the seeder first, feed its output into OpenSSL...
1852017-04-29T19:05:07 <gmaxwell> sipa: there have been two OS releases with the OS rng returning nothing useful while we've been working on this project... I don't think making extra effort to not be completely insecure in that case is overkill.
1862017-04-29T19:05:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: my assumption is that the (barely maintained) openssl code can't be guaranteeing much in such a broken state either
1872017-04-29T19:06:11 <sipa> i agree it's a useful goal to attempt to be secure in that case, but i do see it as a separate improvement
1882017-04-29T19:06:35 <gmaxwell> which was why I previously suggested doing it first. :)
1892017-04-29T19:06:41 <sipa> this is trivial
1902017-04-29T19:06:53 <sipa> librng will be a pain to make production ready
1912017-04-29T19:07:05 <gmaxwell> I have no interest in a "librng" I don't think its tractable.
1922017-04-29T19:07:07 <BlueMatt> sipa: making it a library yes, making it libgivemeentropy, I'd hope a bit less so
1932017-04-29T19:07:23 <gmaxwell> handling concurrency is too hard if you also care a lot about performance.
1942017-04-29T19:07:26 <sipa> BlueMatt: wumpus did not feel like pulling all that code into core without making it reusable
1952017-04-29T19:07:49 <BlueMatt> sipa: isnt libgivemeentropy reuseable?
1962017-04-29T19:07:54 <gmaxwell> I am going to NAK this PR, since it seems unlikely that we'll get improved seeding at all.
1972017-04-29T19:07:57 <BlueMatt> (and easier than librng)
1982017-04-29T19:08:05 <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't understand
1992017-04-29T19:08:39 <sipa> why should improved seeding be a requirement to drop openssl?
2002017-04-29T19:09:07 <gmaxwell> You are busy arguing now that we're unlikely to get improved seeding, because wumpus wanted a reusable library, and we've evaluated it and determined that making something fast and fork tolerant while handling concurrency and being portable is more or less too hard.
2012017-04-29T19:09:17 <gmaxwell> Because the change is worse than what openssl does!
2022017-04-29T19:09:32 <sipa> we don't need the performance requirement anymore
2032017-04-29T19:09:57 <gmaxwell> I know we don't, but an external library does if anyone else is ever going to use it. Which is why we haven't done that.
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2052017-04-29T19:10:16 <sipa> as all needs for randomness are split into high-performance or high-entropy, with no overlap
2062017-04-29T19:10:31 <sipa> so a libuserentropy or whatever should become a lot easier to do
2072017-04-29T19:11:01 <sipa> which makes it tractable to do
2082017-04-29T19:11:06 <sipa> but it's still a lot of work
2092017-04-29T19:11:18 <sipa> which i think shouldn't be blocking this
2102017-04-29T19:12:15 <gmaxwell> This is obviously weaker than the initilization with openssl. You're basically arguing that this should go first because doing other things won't happen soon. Don't you see why I can't support that?
2112017-04-29T19:12:48 <gmaxwell> Seperate PRs fine, but a change that I think is only acceptable with another change that you're saying won't happen soon?
2122017-04-29T19:13:12 <sipa> my view is that we currently have no guarantees about security if OS entropy is broken
2132017-04-29T19:13:26 <sipa> this makes it stronger, because all randomness queries no go to the OS
2142017-04-29T19:13:30 <sipa> *now
2152017-04-29T19:14:09 <sipa> if we want security in the assumotion of a broken OS, that is something that can be done independently (and more easily after this PR)
2162017-04-29T19:14:14 <sipa> *assumption
2172017-04-29T19:15:15 <gmaxwell> It's stronger because it goes straight to something which we've known to be insecure in recent memory?
2182017-04-29T19:15:44 <sipa> go find me what openssl would do in those cases
2192017-04-29T19:16:12 <sipa> do we even know?
2202017-04-29T19:16:22 <gmaxwell> I posted about it before, rng is seeded based on a collection of different pointers and timestamps. And in Bitcoin on windows, based on a screenshot.
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2222017-04-29T19:18:22 <sipa> does that guarantee anything?
2232017-04-29T19:18:46 <sipa> at least you'd need things like memory latency based measurements
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2252017-04-29T19:19:26 * BlueMatt is so confused, what was wrong with taking just the entropy-generating parts, pulling those out into a libgivemeentropy, and using that as an entropy source?
2262017-04-29T19:19:49 <BlueMatt> sounds a) doable on a reasonable timeline (unlike, maybe, librng) b) just as good for our usage
2272017-04-29T19:19:50 <sipa> BlueMatt: nothing wrong with it, i think it's a great idea
2282017-04-29T19:20:10 <sipa> but i think it's orthogonal to chaning the RNG
2292017-04-29T19:20:18 <BlueMatt> ok, so lets do both that and removing openssl in the same release and move on with our day?
2302017-04-29T19:21:32 <sipa> well if there is a requirement to do it in the same release, we should do it simultaneously
2312017-04-29T19:21:41 <gmaxwell> sipa: nothing here guarentees anything; thats a weird ask that you're making.
2322017-04-29T19:22:06 <sipa> sigh
2332017-04-29T19:22:08 * sipa weekend
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2402017-04-29T19:39:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: if all the seeding code was something we'd just add in random.cpp, i'll gladly do it even in the same PR
2412017-04-29T19:40:04 <sipa> but my assumption is that others wouldn't consider that the right place
2422017-04-29T19:40:45 <sipa> and if what is needed is a separate library will autotools and various detection for parts of operating systems, that's not something i want to take on writing and maintaing
2432017-04-29T19:42:04 <sipa> and if we both need better seeding code and making it effectively reusable are requirements before making progress on our RNG code, then yes, i fear it won't happen
2442017-04-29T19:42:06 <BlueMatt> sipa: I'm happy with it in random.cpp, that sounds like a wumpus question, though
2452017-04-29T19:42:25 <sipa> yes
2462017-04-29T19:43:28 <sipa> but it's not an unreasonable thing to ask
2472017-04-29T19:43:38 <sipa> and neither is requiring better seeding code
2482017-04-29T19:44:07 <sipa> in my view, if your OS randomness is broken, you're fucked
2492017-04-29T19:44:25 <sipa> maybe the current OpenSSL code helps with it, and maybe it doesn't
2502017-04-29T19:44:43 <sipa> it's a cool problem, with a cool solution, to try to protect against that
2512017-04-29T19:46:50 <sipa> but i don't feel like working on it when there are too many conflicting demands
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