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 122017-05-12T00:35:22  <instagibbs> sipa, could you plot as CDF?
 132017-05-12T00:36:26  <sipa> instagibbs: https://bitcoin.sipa.be/depths.xz
 142017-05-12T00:36:29  <sipa> have fun :)
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 182017-05-12T00:38:44  <gmaxwell> I've been chewing on that data, and I don't think it really supports the 144 block target very much.
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 222017-05-12T01:02:12  <gmaxwell> sipa: do you have more detailed data?
 232017-05-12T01:08:47  <sipa> i have timestamps + depth for each block transfer
 242017-05-12T01:10:00  <gmaxwell> logically we'd want to put our breakpoints at peaks in the second derivative of the total blocks served (the cumulative version of that data).  Which would in peaks of the derivative of your data.. but it's measurements so getting a useful derivative is hard.   working from a smoothed spline it looks like the peaks are at 29, 199, and then there is so much periodic behavior that its hard to see
 252017-05-12T01:10:06  <gmaxwell> any other trend.   What I think I'm seeing is 24 hour-ish cycles,  but they're spread out in block count due to difficulty changing.
 262017-05-12T01:10:29  <gmaxwell> e.g. if you want to fully capture a 24-hour sycle then perhaps you need 200 blocks, because there can be 200 blocks in a day.
 272017-05-12T01:12:23  <petertodd> gmaxwell: when have I last responded to a post that you think wasn't worth responding too?
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 322017-05-12T01:22:57  <gmaxwell> petertodd: I can't think of a recent example, remark wasn't intended to criticize your behavior. Sorry if it came off that way.
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 352017-05-12T01:47:41  <gmaxwell> sipa: so from this data, I'm not seeing a lot of justification for anything but a single level at around 200 blocks +plus a dozen or so blocks for headroom (so, e.g. 288 would be fine).    If I use a cumulative maximum from the end to estimate how many transfers are due to fullsync-- there are 107, if then subtract those off, 90% of the cumulative transfer is met by depth 244, and 99% by 410.
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 382017-05-12T02:38:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #10390: [wallet] remove minimum total fee option (master...killminfee) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10390
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 562017-05-12T04:16:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #10391: OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT anti-replay (BIP 115; logic only) (master...cbah) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10391
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 732017-05-12T06:10:47  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Agree on what you said about the bitcoin-dev list. I refuse to answer.
 742017-05-12T06:16:26  <dcousens> jonasschnelli: here I was thinking about the "2048" of coin selection
 752017-05-12T06:16:54  <jonasschnelli> 2048?
 762017-05-12T06:17:04  <dcousens> https://gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048/
 772017-05-12T06:18:33  <jonasschnelli> I wasn't aware of that game,...
 782017-05-12T06:18:47  * jonasschnelli 's productive goes rapidly down
 792017-05-12T06:18:56  <dcousens> jonasschnelli: ha, my bad
 802017-05-12T06:19:02  <jonasschnelli> ;-)
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 822017-05-12T06:23:09  <sipa> jonasschnelli: oh god, i lost about 6 months of my life to that game
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1032017-05-12T10:45:23  <petertodd> gmaxwell: no worries, I was just wondering if there was something I missed :)
1042017-05-12T10:45:50  <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm sure I've done that in the far past! :)
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1062017-05-12T12:00:51  <SopaXorzTaker> the possibility of ASICBOOST is a vulnerability in the PoW
1072017-05-12T12:00:55  <SopaXorzTaker> let's fix it now
1082017-05-12T12:01:12  <SopaXorzTaker> then Bitmain would finally move their fat lazy... uhm and accept SegWit
1092017-05-12T12:02:08  <SopaXorzTaker> I mean, that's suggested on Reddit and is definitely about the Core
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1182017-05-12T12:55:13  <jonasschnelli> sipa: what do you think about ryanofsky comment here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8501#discussion_r115811850
1192017-05-12T12:56:45  <jonasschnelli> I guess the 26bytes may be padded to 32... so I guess ryanofsky is right here.
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1302017-05-12T13:57:58  <SopaXorzTaker> jonasschnelli, hey
1312017-05-12T13:58:07  <SopaXorzTaker> could I ask for some offtopic help?
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1362017-05-12T14:01:47  <vedochiaro> ciao
1372017-05-12T14:01:59  <vedochiaro> musica anni 80
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1472017-05-12T14:41:01  <jonasschnelli> SopaXorzTaker: shoot
1482017-05-12T14:41:29  <jonasschnelli> If its offtopic use a on-topic channel or PM me
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1502017-05-12T14:45:51  <cchadwicka> i need to find an online wallet that allows me to buy bitcoin from within the wallet with a credit card, like coinbase, but a different one
1512017-05-12T14:45:54  <cchadwicka> any ideas
1522017-05-12T14:46:08  <instagibbs> cchadwicka, #bitcoin
1532017-05-12T14:46:09  <jonasschnelli> cchadwicka: please no cross posts... use #bitcoin
1542017-05-12T14:47:23  <cchadwicka> i am banned from bitcoin
1552017-05-12T14:47:37  <cchadwicka> im new here and they kicked me out yesterday
1562017-05-12T14:47:43  <cchadwicka> because i was off topic
1572017-05-12T14:48:00  <sipa> and if you keep posting offtopic things here, i'll ban you too
1582017-05-12T14:55:14  <sipa> jonasschnelli: absolutely, you need to pack the bytes if you want to save space on it
1592017-05-12T14:55:36  <sipa> jonasschnelli: but don't bother, saving 2 bytes in such a structure is negligablr
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1752017-05-12T16:20:22  <kanzure> jonasschnelli: fundrawtransaction complains about minimum fee policy when i set feeRate to 0; i have an output with the fee and i was just going to delete the output later...
1762017-05-12T16:20:26  *** waxwing has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1772017-05-12T16:22:40  <kanzure> "Note that all inputs selected must be of standard form and P2SH scripts must be in the wallet using importaddress or addmultisigaddress (to calculate fees)."
1782017-05-12T16:23:51  <kanzure> does that mean that if i'm spending p2sh inputs that my wallet doesn't know about (except by importaddress p2sh-address) in my fundrawtransaction input transaction, do i need to first run importaddress redeemscript?
1792017-05-12T16:26:19  <kanzure> really i just want it to ignore my existing inputs-- i could easily pass my estimate of the final transaction size, if necessary.
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1842017-05-12T16:38:52  <kanzure> this seems related https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9965
1852017-05-12T16:39:46  <kanzure> this claims to override minimum estimated fee but i get error "Transaction too large for fee policy" with feeRate=0 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7967
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1882017-05-12T16:52:16  <instagibbs> kanzure, ah, yes that's a check I've always wondered about, that sounds like a sharp edge
1892017-05-12T16:52:43  <instagibbs> It's checking the fee you're getting against the entire transaction size once constructed
1902017-05-12T16:52:48  <kanzure> sure.
1912017-05-12T16:58:21  <instagibbs> I don't totally get the check's reasoning tbh.
1922017-05-12T16:58:22  <instagibbs> / If we made it here and we aren't even able to meet the relay fee on the next pass, give up
1932017-05-12T16:58:23  <instagibbs>                 // because we must be at the maximum allowed fee.
1942017-05-12T17:02:04  <kanzure> workaround: create a fake transaction of the same size as the estimated final size of my unsigned watchonly-p2sh-spending transaction, and then use fundrawtransaction and i'll pass a realistic feeRate value.
1952017-05-12T17:02:33  <instagibbs> I think the check is just supposed to be reversed.
1962017-05-12T17:02:42  <kanzure> and then i'll delete the fake inputs/outputs from the fundrawtransaction output.
1972017-05-12T17:04:16  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1982017-05-12T17:05:09  <kanzure> specifically my problem is that fundrawtransaction gives me "Signing transaction failed" when i directly pass my unsigned watcholy-p2sh-spending transaction as the input to fundrawtransaction.  so i figured hey i'll just set feeRate to 0 on a dummy transaction, add a change output that i'll delete later, and then use fundrawtransaction... which also has problems.
1992017-05-12T17:05:32  <kanzure> *watchonly
2002017-05-12T17:07:18  <instagibbs> possibly related: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202
2012017-05-12T17:11:42  *** mol has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2022017-05-12T17:13:45  <kanzure> replied, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202#issuecomment-301134038
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2042017-05-12T17:24:06  <kanzure> instagibbs: okay here is my new workaround.   createrawtransaction with a change output spending back to myself the total fee that i would like to spend. fundrawtransaction with reasonable feeRate.  using fundrawtransaction output dictionary, i'll switch the "change" output amount to be the fundrawtransaction fee amount, so ultimately there is no extra fee and my original "fee" request shou...
2052017-05-12T17:24:12  <kanzure> ...ld be satisfied.
2062017-05-12T17:25:01  <kanzure> and the final transaction will have two change outputs (unless i consolidate).
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2082017-05-12T18:02:32  <paveljanik> Are GetDustThreshold and IsDust expected to be called with dustRelayFee other than ::dustRelayFee?
2092017-05-12T18:11:47  <instagibbs> It seems surprising behavior to me to have the wallet simply reduce the fee if it hits maxTxFee, other than panic and abort.
2102017-05-12T18:13:05  <instagibbs> rather than*
2112017-05-12T18:26:31  <kanzure> huh, signrawtransaction also gives me an error ("Operation not valid with the current stack size")
2122017-05-12T18:26:54  <Chris_Stewart_5> Hmm, I think I have had that problem when I forgot to call fundrawtransaction first?
2132017-05-12T18:27:37  <kanzure> i have definitely called fundrawtransaction; i excised the inputs and outputs, and added them to my unsigned p2sh-spending transaction.
2142017-05-12T18:31:02  <Chris_Stewart_5> with watch-only p2sh spending txs the redeemScript is imported right?
2152017-05-12T18:32:29  <kanzure> i am spending watch-only p2sh transactions, however i did not pass includeWatching to fundrawtransaction -- i supplied an unsigned transaction to start with.
2162017-05-12T18:33:13  <kanzure> also, i did not import the redeemscripts, is that important
2172017-05-12T18:33:40  <kanzure> (why would that be important for signrawtransaction? i want to sign only the inputs i'm able to sign.)
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2212017-05-12T18:38:48  <kanzure> oh, that's a misleading error message, that's how it reports the transaction is incompletely signed?
2222017-05-12T18:39:39  <Chris_Stewart_5> No, it returns a bool indicating if it is fully signed: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#signrawtransaction
2232017-05-12T18:40:36  <Chris_Stewart_5> Why are you adding a watch-only output to a tx you are creating? You can't fullfill the spending conditions of it by definition
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2252017-05-12T18:41:32  <Chris_Stewart_5> fundrawtransaction will add inputs to the tx until it *fully* funds the outputs of that tx
2262017-05-12T18:44:43  <kanzure> the transaction is fully funded by my inputs, to my knowledge, prior to calling fundrawtransaction with the exception of any extra fee i'm trying to add.
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2282017-05-12T18:45:56  <kanzure> Chris_Stewart_5: yeah i was overly focused on "errors" that i overlooked "complete: False" and that it had a new scriptsig :)
2292017-05-12T18:47:05  <Chris_Stewart_5> so fundrawtransaction isn't giving you a large enough fee?
2302017-05-12T18:47:37  <kanzure> fundrawtransaction is giving me an error "Signing transaction failed" if i try to directly call it with my transaction
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2322017-05-12T18:47:58  <kanzure> probably because it's using dummy signatures somewhere-- i dunno- and yeah i have not imported the redeemscripts (if that's necessary- which is still unclear to me)
2332017-05-12T18:48:28  <Chris_Stewart_5> Well, if you (or some one else) is trying to spend a p2sh output the redeem script must be provided in the scriptSig
2342017-05-12T18:48:49  <kanzure> i may not have put the reedemScripts in the scriptSigs yet.
2352017-05-12T18:48:59  <Chris_Stewart_5> But since it seems like the p2sh output isn't yours, your counterparty will have to sign the p2sh output and provide the redeem script
2362017-05-12T18:49:19  <instagibbs> kanzure, that would explain it as it's expecting more stack items
2372017-05-12T18:49:32  <Chris_Stewart_5> ^
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2392017-05-12T18:49:35  <kanzure> i'd like to add fee first, sign for the fee, then sign the other outputs-- it's exceedingly inconvenient for me to do this in another order.
2402017-05-12T18:49:41  <kanzure> *sign for the other inputs
2412017-05-12T18:50:18  <Chris_Stewart_5> You should be able to do it that way, then just pass the partially signed tx to your counterparty
2422017-05-12T18:50:36  <kanzure> i think we've already confirmed that i can't because of the error?
2432017-05-12T18:51:17  <Chris_Stewart_5> oh, yes.. hmm..
2442017-05-12T18:51:56  <kanzure> anyway, my workaround seems to be working for me, where i use createrawtransaction with an output that represents my fee, then later i remove the output, copy the inputs and any extra outputs added by fundrawtransaction to my actual transaction, and then i call signrawtransaction.
2452017-05-12T18:53:10  <kanzure> (also i'm adding the "fee" reported by fundrawtransaction to the change output reported by fundrawtransaction, since i have deleted the output that has my actual fee)
2462017-05-12T18:53:38  <Chris_Stewart_5> kanzure: Can't your counter party just add the p2sh output to the transaction? If you remove that outpoint your wallet can sign the tx right?
2472017-05-12T18:54:12  <kanzure> er, maybe. but keep in mind that i was calling fundrawtransaction not signrawtransaction-- it's something about dummy sigs.
2482017-05-12T18:54:50  <sipa> is the problem that fundrawtransactrion can't determine the feerate of your overall transaction as it does not know how large the scriptSigs of some inputs will need to be?
2492017-05-12T18:54:52  <kanzure> so you're saying that i have a partial outpoint and that fundrawtransaction should not report "Signing transaction failed" once i remove the incompete outpoint?
2502017-05-12T18:54:56  <Chris_Stewart_5> but in the hex transaction you provided to fundrawtransaction you had specified the watch-only p2sh output?
2512017-05-12T18:55:03  <sipa> and as a result can't determine how much fee to use?
2522017-05-12T18:55:29  <kanzure> sipa: right, that seems likely to me. i am also interested in confirming/denying with someone whether i need to "importpubkey redeemscript" to overcome that?
2532017-05-12T18:56:12  <sipa> or importscript
2542017-05-12T18:56:44  <sipa> if fundrawtransaction doesn't know what kind of redeemscript a P2SH output that's being spent has, it can't determine feerate
2552017-05-12T18:57:00  <sipa> it may need both, unsure
2562017-05-12T18:57:26  <kanzure> i added a comment here explaining that perhaps a better design would be to let user specify the final transaction size (if the user knows it) or allowing feeRate=0 if the user plans to delete an output later https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202#issuecomment-301134038
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2592017-05-12T18:59:15  <kanzure> perhaps CreateTransaction is overloaded at this point :p
2602017-05-12T19:00:01  <sipa> just slightly
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2642017-05-12T19:08:24  <SopaXorzTaker> sipa, can you provide some secp256k1 test cases?
2652017-05-12T19:09:09  <SopaXorzTaker> such as, "for private key 0xdeadbeef, z=0xabcd, k=0x1337, r=0x1234 and s=0x5678
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2882017-05-12T21:40:32  <sipa> general question: how useful is gettxoutsetinfo's serialized_bytes field?
2892017-05-12T21:40:52  <sipa> it does not correspond to actual disk usage, and is highly database dependent
2902017-05-12T21:41:29  <sipa> it's also impossible to even give a reasonable estimate for after pertxout, except by iterating over the whole database (which I'd like to get rid of)
2912017-05-12T21:49:44  <gmaxwell> I think it's not useful, or rather the only thing I've ever used it for is taking about how big the utxo set is on reddit, and an on-disk size would be _better_ for that.
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2942017-05-12T22:09:24  <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, I have some reivew comments noting it seems out of sync with everything....
2952017-05-12T22:09:35  <BlueMatt> sipa: gah, why did you kill Accessors?
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2972017-05-12T22:13:24  <sipa> BlueMatt: i didn't
2982017-05-12T22:13:34  <sipa> how do you mean out of sync?
2992017-05-12T22:20:04  <BlueMatt> ehh, meant Modifiers not Accessors
3002017-05-12T22:20:29  <BlueMatt> sipa: what is serialized_bytes /supposed/ to show? it seems to not represent anything that actually means something (both before and especially, as you note, after)
3012017-05-12T22:21:05  <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm very happy to get rid of Modifiers :D
3022017-05-12T22:21:11  <sipa> they're so complicated to reason about
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3042017-05-12T22:21:28  <BlueMatt> they were there to prevent footgun incidents :(
3052017-05-12T22:21:46  <sipa> yes, if you have modifiable references
3062017-05-12T22:21:50  <BlueMatt> now you can take a AccessCoins, then add something to the cache, then blow your face off
3072017-05-12T22:21:58  <sipa> AccessCoins returns a const reference
3082017-05-12T22:21:59  <BlueMatt> AccessCoins gives you such a reference, though?
3092017-05-12T22:22:11  <sipa> the only way to modify is through AddCoin and SpendCoin (and BatchWrite)
3102017-05-12T22:22:23  <BlueMatt> yes, but if you add something to the cache the reference is still invalid? or are unordered_map refs still valid?
3112017-05-12T22:22:50  <BlueMatt> ofc if you remove from cache the same element you've still blown your face off
3122017-05-12T22:23:14  <sipa> adding something to the cache may always invalidate references
3132017-05-12T22:23:20  <sipa> Modifiers didn't help with that
3142017-05-12T22:23:31  <BlueMatt> didnt add assert(!fHasModifier)?
3152017-05-12T22:23:40  <BlueMatt> which is what you want if you're returning refs from inside the object
3162017-05-12T22:23:50  <BlueMatt> (or, it should have, if it didnt)
3172017-05-12T22:23:56  <sipa> yes, there could be at most be one modifier at a time
3182017-05-12T22:24:05  <sipa> but that didn't prevent any concurrent references
3192017-05-12T22:24:26  <BlueMatt> well we could trivially fix that - reintroduce modifiers and allow multiple ones, but assert when you actually modify the cache that there are no other ones
3202017-05-12T22:24:39  <sipa> that won't do anything
3212017-05-12T22:24:48  <BlueMatt> they did prevent some footguns, though, like you couldnt take two at a time because that implies you're possibly modifying the cache
3222017-05-12T22:25:00  <BlueMatt> sipa: I meant modifier here as accessor, really, from AccessCoins
3232017-05-12T22:25:13  <BlueMatt> since its returning a possibly-invalidated-by-other-action reference
3242017-05-12T22:25:21  <sipa> they prevented exactly the same footguns as are now prevented by just having explicit modification methods
3252017-05-12T22:25:24  <BlueMatt> easy to accidentally have one stick around too long
3262017-05-12T22:25:36  <sipa> yes, we could make AccessCoin return something like a modifier... but that seems an independent change
3272017-05-12T22:25:38  <BlueMatt> fair
3282017-05-12T22:25:59  <BlueMatt> I'd like to see that (or just not return a ref, have you checked the performance overhead of doing that copy everywhere?)
3292017-05-12T22:27:36  <sipa> i really don't like copying potentially large data structures where it's unneeded
3302017-05-12T22:27:58  <sipa> it's also imcompatible with reducing some of the duplicate output lookups during block/tx validation
3312017-05-12T22:28:02  <BlueMatt> fair, I am worried about the footgun potential there, though
3322017-05-12T22:28:17  <BlueMatt> maybe we can do the copy for now and introduce an accessor in a separate pr?
3332017-05-12T22:28:25  <sipa> please
3342017-05-12T22:28:25  * BlueMatt doesnt want to audit for this case :(
3352017-05-12T22:28:30  <sipa> you don't have to
3362017-05-12T22:28:40  <sipa> nothing has changed wrt that case
3372017-05-12T22:28:57  <sipa> nothing that was prevented is no longer prevent
3382017-05-12T22:29:03  <sipa> and nothing that wasn't prevent is prevented now
3392017-05-12T22:29:07  <BlueMatt> hmm, maybe i missed part of how it used to work, though i vaguely recall you doing some AccessCoins in place of old modifiers
3402017-05-12T22:29:08  <BlueMatt> maybe im wrong
3412017-05-12T22:30:24  <sipa> modifiers were only used when a modification was expected
3422017-05-12T22:33:36  <sipa> ok, so in the rpc signing code and in bitcoin-tx, there used to be a Modifier that was both used check whether an output already existed, and then add it
3432017-05-12T22:33:49  <sipa> which is now turned into an AccessCoin + AddCoin
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3452017-05-12T22:35:22  <BlueMatt> yea, i mean its probably no big deal, just more shit to review, would be good to also add some kind of checker later so that it doesnt blow up in our face
3462017-05-12T22:35:31  <BlueMatt> cause it'd be easy to slip a change in later that breaks that
3472017-05-12T22:37:43  <sipa> FWIW, i'm adding a commit that adds a disk_size to gettexoutsetinfo instead, which just asks LevelDB for the actual size
3482017-05-12T22:37:59  <BlueMatt> that sounds much better
3492017-05-12T22:40:29  <sipa> BlueMatt: std::unordered_map references are only invalidated when the corresponding entry is deleted
3502017-05-12T22:40:44  <sipa> they remain valid under addition, including when rehashing occurs
3512017-05-12T22:43:26  <BlueMatt> oh, heh, i thought you said no earlier, ok
3522017-05-12T22:43:31  <BlueMatt> yea, makes sense
3532017-05-12T22:44:13  <sipa> iterators are invalidated, but iterators from the underlying CCoinsViewCache are never exposed anymore
3542017-05-12T22:44:53  <BlueMatt> ohoh, ok
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