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  222017-11-30T01:27:17  <promag> fanquake: extended tests too? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11791#issuecomment-348052591
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  242017-11-30T01:31:59  <fanquake> promag I can run them also
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  862017-11-30T06:04:15  <warren> MarcoFalke: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/docs/blob/master/gitian-building/gitian-building-setup-gitian-fedora.md  nice!  how recently did you test this btw?
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  882017-11-30T06:04:57  <warren> MarcoFalke: I have had python-vm-builder RPM packages for years but it broke sometime this year and couldn't figure out how to fix it. although I use only qemu-kvm, not lxc.
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 1162017-11-30T07:19:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Varunram opened pull request #11793: Docs: Bump OS X version to 10.13 (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11793
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 1192017-11-30T07:19:49  <Varunram> ^ This needn't be a standalone PR in itself, can be merged with other fixes
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 1262017-11-30T07:37:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #9254: [depends] ZeroMQ 4.2.2 (master...zeromq-4-2-0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9254
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 1812017-11-30T10:06:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11793: Docs: Bump OS X version to 10.13 (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11793
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 2002017-11-30T10:27:54  <aj> jnewbery: apparently github detects merge conflicts even when git merge and rebase both work fine, so i've split the preliminary changes from #11774 into #11796; hopefully 11796 can be easily merged once acked, since it shouldn't break any pending PRs
 2012017-11-30T10:27:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11774 | [WIP] [tests] Rename functional tests by ajtowns · Pull Request #11774 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 2022017-11-30T10:27:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11796 | [tests] Functional test naming convention by ajtowns · Pull Request #11796 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 2032017-11-30T10:28:46  <wumpus> github is really sensitive with regard to merges, more than the stock git commands
 2042017-11-30T10:29:08  <wumpus> might be so that at least no one blames them for merges going wrong
 2052017-11-30T10:30:29  <aj> wumpus: yeah, it does make sense. bit weird not being able to tell quite what github thinks the conflict is though
 2062017-11-30T10:30:33  <wumpus> at a company I used to work for the integration dept had a similar rule. Two changes affect the same file? let the devs sort it out
 2072017-11-30T10:31:10  <wumpus> yeah it could use some better reporting
 2082017-11-30T10:33:48  <wumpus> something I'd really like on github would be a graph of which open PRs collide with which other PRs
 2092017-11-30T10:34:19  <wumpus> would help a lot in finding the optimal merge order, as well as notify authors early if their PR is going to need to be rebased
 2102017-11-30T10:35:04  <sipa> that would be very useful
 2112017-11-30T10:35:18  <sipa> n^2 complexity though in the number of PRs, i think
 2122017-11-30T10:37:50  <wumpus> worst case, though the n^2 could be filtered by excluding PRs that affect completely distinct files
 2132017-11-30T10:38:41  <wumpus> also one'd want to avoid recomputing the whole thing, just incrementally take opens/closes into account
 2142017-11-30T10:40:02  <wumpus> (ugh, and PRs that are re-pushed)
 2152017-11-30T10:40:46  <aj> that just makes it O(n) for each PR change though
 2162017-11-30T10:41:19  <wumpus> which is reasonable, you can do it in the background, not at the time someone opens the graph
 2172017-11-30T10:42:22  <aj> yeah, n isn't /that/ large
 2182017-11-30T10:43:19  <wumpus> though yeah if github wants to do it for all projects it could get bad for them
 2192017-11-30T10:43:42  <wumpus> I don't really care if it would be a paid-only feature or such
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 2222017-11-30T11:00:13  <wumpus> I've changed "Docs and output" label to just "Docs", it is only for documentation, for logging changes and such please use "Utils/logging/libs" instead.
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 2242017-11-30T11:00:59  <wumpus> I think lumping everything output-related in one issue was a bit confusing
 2252017-11-30T11:01:15  <wumpus> in one label*
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 2492017-11-30T11:22:11  <aj> wumpus: had a quick play, and it seems like you can get somewhere with detecting PR conflicts using git locally. for xa in $tsts; do a=pull/origin/$xa; if (git reset --hard origin/master && git merge $a -m "merge $a to master") >/dev/null; then for xb in $tsts; do if [ "$xa" -ge "$xb" ]; then continue; fi; b=pull/origin/$xb; (git format-patch $(git merge-base $a $b)..$b --stdout | git apply --check
 2502017-11-30T11:22:12  <aj> -) > APPLY_${xa}_${xb} 2>&1 && echo "no conflict between $xa $xb" || echo "merge conflict $xa $xb ?"; done; else echo "conflict with $a and master"; fi; done > CONFLICT
 2512017-11-30T11:22:14  <aj> gah
 2522017-11-30T11:22:42  <aj> wumpus: had a quick play, and it seems like you can get somewhere with detecting PR conflicts using git locally.  -- was what i was trying to say
 2532017-11-30T11:22:53  <aj> wumpus: https://gist.github.com/ajtowns/d0cf97678dc83efdf3f6cbf7083a35a0 -- was what i was trying to paste
 2542017-11-30T11:22:56  <wumpus> awesome!
 2552017-11-30T11:24:10  <wumpus> pretty clever that you manage to avoid touching the working tree
 2562017-11-30T11:24:42  <wumpus> but yes seems I won't get around to setting up a git tree that pulls all the PRs locally
 2572017-11-30T11:25:45  <aj> wumpus: hmm? pulling all the PRs locally is easy and awesome though?
 2582017-11-30T11:26:43  <wumpus> yeah no problem, just don't do it at the moment to avoid cluttering my tree further, I have 858 branches of my own at this point :)
 2592017-11-30T11:27:09  <fanquake> git branch -D *
 2602017-11-30T11:28:22  <aj> wumpus: the pull requests don't show up in git branch -av for me, so i don't even notice (actually, i don't even know how to get a list of them...)
 2612017-11-30T11:28:53  <wumpus> fanquake: git branch -D doesn't take a pattern :-) you'd need something like git branch | xargs git branch -D
 2622017-11-30T11:29:22  <wumpus> aj: interesting, I'd have expected them to show up
 2632017-11-30T11:31:22  <wumpus> (I regularly do 'git branch --list 'pull/*' | xargs git branch -D' to get rid of the temporary branches left behind by github-merge.py in some cases)
 2642017-11-30T11:31:54  <aj> ah, "git remote show origin" will at least give me a list of them
 2652017-11-30T11:32:08  <wumpus> apart from that I use a single repository with worktrees for persistent branches like 0.15
 2662017-11-30T11:33:02  <wumpus> anyhow it works pretty well, I think it will still work pretty will with 231 more branches; will have to find something to clean up closed PRs though
 2672017-11-30T11:33:10  <aj> updated that gist with the compatible and conflicts graphs for a handful of recent PRs
 2682017-11-30T11:33:38  <wumpus> or does that automatically remove removed branches at the gh side as well?
 2692017-11-30T11:34:35  <wumpus> aj: oh wow
 2702017-11-30T11:36:29  <aj> wumpus: the only thing i can think of to make it useful is dumping data into python to work out which collections of PRs have complete subgraphs of compatability
 2712017-11-30T11:36:34  <wumpus> so a connection means a conflict? why do 11790 and 11741 conflict?
 2722017-11-30T11:37:27  <wumpus> 11741 only changes two files, yet conflicts with 9 PRs or so
 2732017-11-30T11:37:36  <wumpus> it's possible :)
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 2752017-11-30T11:40:44  <aj> yeah, they merge fine manually; git apply --check complains about multiwallet.py, rpc/rawtransaction.cpp and test/txvalidation_tests.cpp
 2762017-11-30T11:41:53  <aj> ah, i'm trying to apply patches from master twice
 2772017-11-30T11:41:54  <wumpus> but 11741 touches neither of those
 2782017-11-30T11:42:26  <wumpus> hehe okay
 2792017-11-30T11:45:33  <fanquake> nice
 2802017-11-30T11:48:41  <wumpus> oope, so fetch = +refs/pull/*/head:refs/pull/origin/*  doesn't just fetch *open* pull requests
 2812017-11-30T11:49:34  <wumpus> whee tracking 8288 branches now
 2822017-11-30T11:49:52  <aj> https://gist.github.com/ajtowns/d0cf97678dc83efdf3f6cbf7083a35a0 -- conflict graph looks better now
 2832017-11-30T11:50:08  <wumpus> happy I did it in a temporary repo :)
 2842017-11-30T11:52:04  <wumpus> aj: great
 2852017-11-30T11:56:44  <Varunram> aj: thanks for the gist :)
 2862017-11-30T11:58:14  <aj> probably needs to work out which PR branched off from master most recently and use that as a base
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 3222017-11-30T14:19:30  <wordsToLiveBy> I'm reading the bitcoin white paper, and in section 11 Satoshi gives the calculations for how you can prove with probability that an attacker can't outpace the combined processing power of the rest of the nodes, but I am not quite getting the math being used.
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 3342017-11-30T14:55:40  <andytoshi> #bitcoin please, this is just about software development
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 3372017-11-30T15:08:18  <jnewbery> aj: thanks. I've reviewed #11796. It should be an easy review/merge for others.
 3382017-11-30T15:08:19  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11796 | [tests] Functional test naming convention by ajtowns · Pull Request #11796 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 3412017-11-30T15:24:57  <aj> jnewbery: ugh, what sort of person points out a bug and says not to fix it /o\
 3422017-11-30T15:27:02  <saint_> any idea why can't bitcoin core download the blockchain on a remote NAS drive ?
 3432017-11-30T15:27:19  <wumpus> saint_: ask in #bitcoin please, will answer there
 3442017-11-30T15:27:23  <saint_> okay
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 3652017-11-30T16:16:02  <jnewbery> aj: I wanted to get in before someone else pointed it out and told you to fix it :)
 3662017-11-30T16:16:12  <jnewbery> I don't think it matters since the next PR should remove that code anyway
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 3902017-11-30T17:25:36  <achow101> is the github git notifier dead?
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 4022017-11-30T17:53:48  <wumpus> achow101: intermittently, yes
 4032017-11-30T17:54:01  <wumpus> achow101: it seems incredibly unreliable
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 4122017-11-30T18:40:59  <jonasschnelli> I wonder how the Twitter commit feed works... I expect them polling
 4132017-11-30T18:42:33  <wumpus> I think it must be; it isn't a webhook that we set up
 4142017-11-30T18:43:08  <wumpus> we only have a slack webhook, and the IRC integration
 4152017-11-30T18:43:16  *** timothy has quit IRC
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 4172017-11-30T18:52:21  <wumpus> so having ruled out that it listens on IRC, it must either be listening on slack or polling
 4182017-11-30T18:52:39  <wumpus> not sure whether the slack notiifications do go through
 4192017-11-30T18:53:59  *** nanomouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 4202017-11-30T18:54:49  <wumpus> if the normal webhook works we could set up our own IRC bot
 4212017-11-30T18:56:56  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: slack works...
 4222017-11-30T18:57:26  *** meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 4232017-11-30T18:57:32  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: great, so we isolated it to a problem with their IRC bot, not their notifications in general
 4242017-11-30T18:57:44  <instagibbs> meeting in 3?
 4252017-11-30T18:57:46  <instagibbs> or am i off
 4262017-11-30T18:57:46  <jonasschnelli> Looks like
 4272017-11-30T18:58:25  <wumpus> you're right
 4282017-11-30T18:59:24  <wumpus> if the bot stays flaky like this tomorrow I'll contact github support, it's already been for a few days
 4292017-11-30T19:00:03  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 4302017-11-30T19:00:03  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 30 19:00:03 2017 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 4312017-11-30T19:00:03  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 4322017-11-30T19:00:23  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag
 4332017-11-30T19:00:32  <cfields> hi
 4342017-11-30T19:00:35  <sipa> hi
 4352017-11-30T19:00:36  <CodeShark> hello
 4362017-11-30T19:00:44  <achow101> hi
 4372017-11-30T19:00:46  <Provoostenator> hi
 4382017-11-30T19:00:51  <instagibbs> hi
 4392017-11-30T19:00:55  <jonasschnelli> hi
 4402017-11-30T19:00:59  <wumpus> #topic high priority for review
 4412017-11-30T19:01:01  <meshcollider> hi
 4422017-11-30T19:01:16  <luke-jr> hi
 4432017-11-30T19:01:20  <wumpus> 8 PRs have been tagged for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
 4442017-11-30T19:01:39  <BlueMatt> why does cfields have 2?
 4452017-11-30T19:01:44  <wumpus> I added cfields's BanMan last week as it's blocking his further net refactoring
 4462017-11-30T19:01:59  <cfields> BlueMatt: wasn't me, but i'll take it :)
 4472017-11-30T19:02:06  <wumpus> ohh is it unfair?
 4482017-11-30T19:02:09  * jonasschnelli also have two :|
 4492017-11-30T19:02:18  <instagibbs> achow101, i see you rebased yours? we shooting for post-0.16?
 4502017-11-30T19:02:21  <BlueMatt> i think we try to have only one per person
 4512017-11-30T19:02:24  <jtimon> hi
 4522017-11-30T19:02:34  <BlueMatt> well i suggested we include jonasschnelli's other one as its kinda a segwit-wallet-blocker imo
 4532017-11-30T19:02:38  <BlueMatt> or at least in-same-release
 4542017-11-30T19:02:42  <achow101> instagibbs: I'm shooting for 0.16
 4552017-11-30T19:02:47  <achow101> but it may not make it
 4562017-11-30T19:03:04  <instagibbs> ok, I can give it more love, though I think I've given a lot already, probably needs others....
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 4582017-11-30T19:03:21  <achow101> still some segwit related things to do and runn1ng wants simulations
 4592017-11-30T19:03:31  <achow101> also been busy with exams and classwork
 4602017-11-30T19:03:37  <wumpus> well, good solution for that, review and merge one of cfields's PRs and there will be only one left :)
 4612017-11-30T19:03:44  <karelb> achow101: I came just in time :) yes I wanted some simulations
 4622017-11-30T19:03:51  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: heh
 4632017-11-30T19:03:57  <sipa> so i think we're maybe unintentionally moving from a "we release regularly with whatever is finished" to "X is a blocker for release Y"
 4642017-11-30T19:04:10  <BlueMatt> oh, wait, i dont have one...hmmmm, I'd say #10279
 4652017-11-30T19:04:13  <wumpus> sipa: segwit is the only exception to that
 4662017-11-30T19:04:14  <cfields> i have no problem with removing one of mine if it's an issue. But yes, I think 11363 is ready/easy to review
 4672017-11-30T19:04:15  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10279 | Add a CChainState class to validation.cpp to take another step towards clarifying internal interfaces by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #10279 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 4682017-11-30T19:04:23  <BlueMatt> sipa: I think we'll go back to that post-segwit-wallet, no?
 4692017-11-30T19:04:25  <wumpus> sipa: for the rest, releases are only ever blocked on bugfixes not features
 4702017-11-30T19:04:29  <achow101> sipa: I think 0.16 is the exception? because segwit wallet
 4712017-11-30T19:04:35  <wumpus> yes
 4722017-11-30T19:04:36  <jtimon> sipa: what is the blocker for 0.16 ?
 4732017-11-30T19:04:41  <sipa> okay, that's fine - i'm not saying it's a bad thing
 4742017-11-30T19:04:50  <instagibbs> i think it's openly acknowledged
 4752017-11-30T19:04:55  <wumpus> and segwit wallet is not intended as a *blocker* for 0.16
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 4772017-11-30T19:05:07  <wumpus> we intend to release 0.16 early after that's in
 4782017-11-30T19:05:13  <wumpus> so it's more like a trigger
 4792017-11-30T19:05:13  <sipa> fair enough
 4802017-11-30T19:05:20  <sipa> but it still changes prioritization a bit
 4812017-11-30T19:05:28  <BlueMatt> indeed
 4822017-11-30T19:05:32  <instagibbs> i think the segwit pr is shaping up nicely at least
 4832017-11-30T19:05:34  <wumpus> if segwit wallet takes longer than the 0.16 release window, then IMO we should release 0.16 without it
 4842017-11-30T19:05:43  <wumpus> but I don't expect that
 4852017-11-30T19:05:48  <BlueMatt> wumpus: agreed
 4862017-11-30T19:06:09  <jtimon> oh, I see, we want to release 0.16 soon after segwit wallet gets in
 4872017-11-30T19:06:14  <wumpus> jtimon: yep
 4882017-11-30T19:06:26  <sipa> i'm about to push some review fixes to #11403
 4892017-11-30T19:06:30  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11403 | SegWit wallet support by sipa · Pull Request #11403 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 4902017-11-30T19:06:31  <wumpus> jtimon: seems more advisable than trying to backport the whole lot + dependencies to 0.15
 4912017-11-30T19:06:34  <cfields> sipa: not sure if you've clarified somewhere, do you consider all of the listed TODOs in 11403 blockers for release as well?
 4922017-11-30T19:06:53  <jtimon> wumpus: yeah, I think I suggested that, eithe way it makes sense to me
 4932017-11-30T19:07:18  <wumpus> jtimon: thanks in that case :)
 4942017-11-30T19:07:26  <luke-jr> branch 0.15 into 0.16 ;)
 4952017-11-30T19:07:32  <sipa> cfields: yes
 4962017-11-30T19:07:48  <cfields> ok, thanks
 4972017-11-30T19:08:03  <gmaxwell> So, segwit-wallet is done?
 4982017-11-30T19:08:15  <jtimon> I'm not following review on the segwit wallet pr, how is it going?
 4992017-11-30T19:08:31  <sipa> i think #11403 is pretty much done - just nits in command line option handling and output
 5002017-11-30T19:08:34  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11403 | SegWit wallet support by sipa · Pull Request #11403 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 5012017-11-30T19:08:45  <jtimon> great
 5022017-11-30T19:08:55  <achow101> I tried reviewing it but it's big and scary
 5032017-11-30T19:09:10  <wumpus> awesome
 5042017-11-30T19:09:23  <sipa> we may want to discuss what to do with things like how dumpprivkey and signmessage should work in a post-segwit world
 5052017-11-30T19:09:29  * Randolf congratulates achow101 for trying
 5062017-11-30T19:09:30  <cfields> i found it reasonable review on a per-commit basis
 5072017-11-30T19:09:37  <instagibbs> cfields, same
 5082017-11-30T19:09:40  <sipa> as i believe some projects have come up with formats on their own
 5092017-11-30T19:09:41  <cfields> *to review
 5102017-11-30T19:09:55  <achow101> sipa: trezor has implemented their own segwit message signing thing
 5112017-11-30T19:09:59  <jtimon> I guess I need tofix the nits in #8994 and #10757 if I want them to have a chance to get merged before 0.16 then
 5122017-11-30T19:10:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8994 | Testchains: Introduce custom chain whose constructor... by jtimon · Pull Request #8994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 5132017-11-30T19:10:03  <achow101> I think that might be the only one though
 5142017-11-30T19:10:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10757 | RPC: Introduce getblockstats to plot things by jtimon · Pull Request #10757 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 5152017-11-30T19:10:22  <sipa> achow101: perhaps we can just adopt that
 5162017-11-30T19:10:25  <jtimon> what are we referring to by "soon after"?
 5172017-11-30T19:10:30  <wumpus> sipa: well if other project's import/export formats make sense, it'd be good to use them for interchangeability
 5182017-11-30T19:10:45  <achow101> sipa: I don't think it's documented anywhere though
 5192017-11-30T19:10:48  <meshcollider> Should there be a BIP to formalise it
 5202017-11-30T19:10:48  <achow101> at least not yet
 5212017-11-30T19:10:52  <Provoostenator> Is there a good standard for message signing?
 5222017-11-30T19:10:53  <sipa> longer term i think a script-based signing would nice, but i don't think we're ready to adopt something like that
 5232017-11-30T19:10:59  <gmaxwell> I thought they did but backed it out because it wasn't standardized yet. What they did didn't seem to awful, though I feel a little uneasy about the mutability between keytypes.
 5242017-11-30T19:11:00  <karelb> sipa: ad sign message - in trezor we changed v constant - https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10542#issuecomment-316032523 - no BIP, no time :(
 5252017-11-30T19:11:13  <sipa> karelb: ok, i'll have a look
 5262017-11-30T19:11:22  <sipa> the original bitcoin core message signing doesn't have a bip either
 5272017-11-30T19:11:33  <luke-jr> Provoostenator: no
 5282017-11-30T19:11:40  <wumpus> a BIP is not a requirement for us implementing it, though in parallel it'd be nice
 5292017-11-30T19:11:43  <BlueMatt> sipa: it probably should if we change it, though
 5302017-11-30T19:11:45  <achow101> sipa: perhaps it should? retcon one :p
 5312017-11-30T19:11:56  <sipa> seems reasonable
 5322017-11-30T19:11:57  <wumpus> good to already have implementations and the BIP just formalizes it
 5332017-11-30T19:12:08  <gmaxwell> Well, signmessage is generally not very good; but fixing it should be a longer term thing.
 5342017-11-30T19:12:09  <Provoostenator> I vaguely remember trying to implement / refactor signing and being not amused by the lack of a standard.
 5352017-11-30T19:12:16  <luke-jr> current signed messages get very little real use, and most "usage" is based on misconceptions
 5362017-11-30T19:12:23  <karelb> sipa yes good point. I wanted to write up a document that describes both current and segwit message signing, but I got stuck on how ecdsa signing actually works :)
 5372017-11-30T19:12:24  <wumpus> luke-jr: agree
 5382017-11-30T19:12:26  <luke-jr> IMO it'd make sense to just deprecate it until a better replacement is made
 5392017-11-30T19:12:29  <wumpus> luke-jr: it's not a priority at least
 5402017-11-30T19:12:33  <instagibbs> luke-jr, it's used for airdrops :P
 5412017-11-30T19:12:40  <sipa> luke-jr: i agree it's not all that useful
 5422017-11-30T19:12:44  <Provoostenator> Can it be made coin-agnostic as well?
 5432017-11-30T19:12:48  <wumpus> certainly shouldn't be a blocker for 0.16
 5442017-11-30T19:12:50  <luke-jr> instagibbs: that's a misuse, since it doesn't prove you have funds ;)
 5452017-11-30T19:12:51  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: no.
 5462017-11-30T19:13:09  <karelb> we didn't have segwit message signing in web wallet, but users repeatedly demanded it
 5472017-11-30T19:13:12  <instagibbs> luke-jr, but i profit from it, how can it be misuse ;P
 5482017-11-30T19:13:19  <instagibbs> +1 tho
 5492017-11-30T19:13:21  *** ExtraCrispy has quit IRC
 5502017-11-30T19:13:21  <gmaxwell> The fact that it's inherently incompatible with multisig is a real bummer.
 5512017-11-30T19:13:22  <luke-jr> karelb: for what, though?
 5522017-11-30T19:13:27  <achow101> instagibbs: lol
 5532017-11-30T19:13:31  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: airdrops
 5542017-11-30T19:13:35  <luke-jr> XD
 5552017-11-30T19:13:49  <wumpus> using bitcoin keys for anything else than signing transactions continues to make me uneasy
 5562017-11-30T19:13:50  <jtimon> yeah, +1 to move to signing messages based on scripts
 5572017-11-30T19:14:09  <luke-jr> MAST-based signmessage would be a sensible replacement
 5582017-11-30T19:14:14  <Provoostenator> jtimon: what would that look like?
 5592017-11-30T19:14:44  <wumpus> do hardware wallets even support it?
 5602017-11-30T19:14:51  <luke-jr> Provoostenator: you could have a MAST if-branch that is always false for transactions, and then true for meta uses
 5612017-11-30T19:14:53  <gmaxwell> wumpus: If I were to it again, I'd make signmessage work by just creating a transaction which is inherently unminable. It would make it a lot more compatible, though somewhat larger.
 5622017-11-30T19:14:53  <CodeShark> gmaxwell: a general solution for airdrops seems extremely difficult
 5632017-11-30T19:15:29  <jtimon> Provoostenator: like we sign txs but signing any message, in elements we sign blocks so perhaps you want to take a look (since there's generic functions to sign stuff, but they're not exposed and only used for blocks)
 5642017-11-30T19:15:30  <gmaxwell> In elements sipa wrote a patch for a script based signmessage; but we ran into ... challenges.. with how softforks would be handled.
 5652017-11-30T19:15:48  *** nanymouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 5662017-11-30T19:15:50  <wumpus> gmaxwell: that'd have been better; at least the keys would only be used to sign things in one format
 5672017-11-30T19:15:56  <gmaxwell> Segwit script versioning would fix those challenges.
 5682017-11-30T19:15:57  <CodeShark> yes, two chains might have very different redemption conditions for the same utxo
 5692017-11-30T19:16:00  *** nanomouse has quit IRC
 5702017-11-30T19:16:02  <Provoostenator> Hah, so you can do multisig messages? :-)
 5712017-11-30T19:16:07  <sipa> Provoostenator: yes
 5722017-11-30T19:16:15  <sipa> Provoostenator: and timelocked signatures :p
 5732017-11-30T19:16:16  <Provoostenator> Or even partial messages?
 5742017-11-30T19:16:20  <jtimon> gmaxwell: I think they should be handled with flags
 5752017-11-30T19:16:43  <sipa> jtimon: yes, but the general property of softforks doesn't apply
 5762017-11-30T19:16:45  <jtimon> oh, right, script versioning solves it too
 5772017-11-30T19:16:56  <sipa> you don't want a "oh, i don't know this signature version! it's valid!!"
 5782017-11-30T19:17:01  <gmaxwell> jtimon: the 'pubkey' needs to commit to the rules. pre-segwit style softforks don't.
 5792017-11-30T19:17:16  <gmaxwell> Well you can tristate:  Valid, invalid, unknown public key version.
 5802017-11-30T19:17:48  <wumpus> right
 5812017-11-30T19:17:50  <luke-jr> sipa: that's a risk for txs too, though
 5822017-11-30T19:17:54  <jtimon> sipa: sure, I mean, this is out of the blockchain, so you just need to know which flags to use when validating...what gmaxwell said, commit to the rules
 5832017-11-30T19:18:06  <gmaxwell> prior to having the explicit versions we couldn't do that, which is why we never even merged the patch in elements, much less brought it to bitcoin.
 5842017-11-30T19:18:07  <luke-jr> why sighash flags can't fail valid
 5852017-11-30T19:18:24  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: attacker controls signature side flags.
 5862017-11-30T19:18:29  *** nanymouse has quit IRC
 5872017-11-30T19:18:32  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: right, that's my point
 5882017-11-30T19:18:49  *** nanymouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 5892017-11-30T19:19:15  <gmaxwell> same reason sighash flags can fail valid in bitcoin: If I pick an out of range sighash flag I could forge signatures for your pubkeys.
 5902017-11-30T19:19:38  <sipa> ?
 5912017-11-30T19:20:24  <CodeShark> I also don't follow
 5922017-11-30T19:20:32  *** Krellan has quit IRC
 5932017-11-30T19:20:49  <luke-jr> [19:16:56] <sipa> you don't want a "oh, i don't know this signature version! it's valid‼" <-- this is a problem for transactions just as much as for signed messages
 5942017-11-30T19:20:50  <wumpus> are there any topics we really want to discuss in this meeting? I think we're drifting off a bit
 5952017-11-30T19:21:00  <gmaxwell> You cannot trigger "unknown behavior, I'll let it pass" based on sighash flags like you can based on the content of public keys.
 5962017-11-30T19:21:06  <cfields> next (quick) topic suggestion: codesigning keys update
 5972017-11-30T19:21:07  <jnewbery> Other PRs I'd love to see merged for v0.16 are #10583 #10579 #11415 . They're all removing wallet dependencies from server, but are API changes so have a one release deprecation lag time before the dependency can actually be removed.
 5982017-11-30T19:21:10  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10583 | [RPC] Split part of validateaddress into getaddressinfo by achow101 · Pull Request #10583 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 5992017-11-30T19:21:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10579 | [RPC] Split signrawtransaction into wallet and non-wallet RPC command by achow101 · Pull Request #10579 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 6002017-11-30T19:21:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11415 | [RPC] Disallow using addresses in createmultisig by achow101 · Pull Request #11415 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 6012017-11-30T19:21:18  <jtimon> yeah, how about what "shortly after" means for 0.16 ?
 6022017-11-30T19:21:24  <jonasschnelli> Two topic proposals: 1) review "nits" reduction, 2) bitcoin core code signing assoc.
 6032017-11-30T19:21:39  <jonasschnelli> 2) goes in hand with cfields topicp.
 6042017-11-30T19:22:07  <wumpus> jnewbery: thanks, I think adding all of them to high priority is a bit much, but we could add one
 6052017-11-30T19:22:09  <wumpus> #topic codesigning
 6062017-11-30T19:22:17  <cfields> I just wanted to point out that after researching for a bit, there's no painless way to renew our osx cert (without involving the btcf), so I think it's prudent that we explore other options.
 6072017-11-30T19:22:22  * cfields passes the mic to jonasschnelli
 6082017-11-30T19:22:28  <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoincore-codesigning-association
 6092017-11-30T19:22:44  <achow101> wumpus: it seems like some of those are ready to be merged. they have utACKs and no comments left
 6102017-11-30T19:22:45  <jonasschnelli> https://bitcoincorecodesigning.org
 6112017-11-30T19:22:45  <jonasschnelli> The association stands and apple has accepted the entity
 6122017-11-30T19:22:57  <jonasschnelli> Code sining certificates are ready (need to setup the key)
 6132017-11-30T19:23:12  <cfields> jonasschnelli: oh that's fantastic! nice work :)
 6142017-11-30T19:23:15  <wumpus> achow101: if they're ready for merge even better, please notify me of those things outside the meeting
 6152017-11-30T19:23:16  <jnewbery> wumpus: thanks. I think they're all pretty much ready for merge. achow101 has been doing a great job maintaining and rebasing them - perhaps just a bit more ACKing and they can go in
 6162017-11-30T19:23:47  <jonasschnelli> We need a windows code signing cert... have never done that but I'm ready to order if someone gives instructions where and how
 6172017-11-30T19:24:00  <wumpus> PSA: if something is ready for merge just let me know here instead of waiting for me to stumble on it accidentally :)
 6182017-11-30T19:24:17  <BlueMatt> jnewbery: afaict only maybe the last is ready? the second only has one ack?
 6192017-11-30T19:24:22  <achow101> wumpus: ok!
 6202017-11-30T19:24:25  <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: that was fast!
 6212017-11-30T19:24:36  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: oh great!
 6222017-11-30T19:24:37  <achow101> jonasschnelli: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/dashboard/get-a-code-signing-certificate
 6232017-11-30T19:25:15  <cfields> achow101: note that a driver cert is different. More requirements.
 6242017-11-30T19:25:28  <wumpus> getting a driver cert is much more difficult
 6252017-11-30T19:25:42  <achow101> oh, didn't see that that was for drivers
 6262017-11-30T19:25:47  <wumpus> I guess it should be, with the privilege level it operates at
 6272017-11-30T19:26:01  <jonasschnelli> The question is if we want to try that distributed RSA key
 6282017-11-30T19:26:09  <wumpus> we do
 6292017-11-30T19:26:26  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: mic?
 6302017-11-30T19:26:48  <BlueMatt> or who was it who said they were gonna look into hooking it into a reasonable way to use it?
 6312017-11-30T19:26:54  <cfields> I'll work on the CSR handling as promised. I assume we'll just have to shove the result back into the expected format.
 6322017-11-30T19:27:21  <gmaxwell> I didn't think we were going to bother to do it for the first one. but this is going faster than expected! :)
 6332017-11-30T19:27:22  <jonasschnelli> cfields: Yeah. Apple needs that -----BEGIN CERTIFICATE REQUEST-----
 6342017-11-30T19:27:23  <achow101> BlueMatt: that was gmaxwell. I also wanted to take a look at it. it looked painful
 6352017-11-30T19:27:58  <gmaxwell> it's not so painful but we need a process for converting raw RSA numbers into csrs and what not, which cfields was going to look into.
 6362017-11-30T19:28:30  <gmaxwell> The easiest thing to do may be to just do trusted setup: generate the key normally on an offline machine, and we can split it after the the fact.
 6372017-11-30T19:28:48  <BlueMatt> ugh
 6382017-11-30T19:28:50  <gmaxwell> the MPC signing is radically simple and faster than MPC key generation.
 6392017-11-30T19:29:01  <BlueMatt> i thought the mpc generation was implemented?
 6402017-11-30T19:29:08  <gmaxwell> Though the stuff I linked to does both. (though it's setup for only three parties atm)
 6412017-11-30T19:29:17  <BlueMatt> i mean thats probably fine?
 6422017-11-30T19:29:22  <BlueMatt> 3/3, I assume?
 6432017-11-30T19:29:22  <achow101> gmaxwell: can it be done faster than what is already implemented?
 6442017-11-30T19:29:35  <gmaxwell> achow101: of course, but do we care if it takes hours?
 6452017-11-30T19:30:12  <wumpus> if it's a one-time thing we don't
 6462017-11-30T19:30:15  <cfields> jonasschnelli: let's talk after the meeting. It'd be great if we could get a dummy to test with.
 6472017-11-30T19:30:16  *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 6482017-11-30T19:30:19  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes 3/3. Generation you'd always do as n/n then potentially reshare to a different threshold.
 6492017-11-30T19:30:25  <jonasschnelli> cfields: sure
 6502017-11-30T19:30:27  <BlueMatt> its not like this is holding a zksnark trusted-setup for all btc
 6512017-11-30T19:30:37  <gmaxwell> How big are the keys they use for these things? 2kbit or 4kbit?
 6522017-11-30T19:31:02  <Provoostenator> BlueMatt: would be nice to get another blog from P
 6532017-11-30T19:31:02  <Provoostenator> l
 6542017-11-30T19:31:11  <sipa> ?
 6552017-11-30T19:31:13  <BlueMatt> ?
 6562017-11-30T19:31:19  <Provoostenator> Peter todd riding down Canada to generate his signing key.
 6572017-11-30T19:31:29  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: 2048 is what my apple RSA keys are
 6582017-11-30T19:31:33  <Provoostenator> And then bragging that's more secure than Zcash
 6592017-11-30T19:31:36  <wumpus> indeed, it's just code signing, for one OS, if something is signed that is not validated by the gitian process that's discovered soon enough anyway
 6602017-11-30T19:31:38  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: it's totally unrelated.
 6612017-11-30T19:31:58  <jonasschnelli> Code signing won't give a lot of additional security...
 6622017-11-30T19:32:02  <jonasschnelli> It's just a UX thing IMO
 6632017-11-30T19:32:07  <gmaxwell> zcash has a backdoor for the whole system, this is just some code signing crud.
 6642017-11-30T19:32:25  <wumpus> right
 6652017-11-30T19:32:29  <Provoostenator> I know.
 6662017-11-30T19:32:43  <gmaxwell> the users shouldn't care AT ALL about the MPC we use for it, the purpose of the MPC is to protect the developers personally from being implicated in the unfortunate case their own computers get hacked.
 6672017-11-30T19:32:53  <sipa> does the MPC generation have a trusted setup?
 6682017-11-30T19:32:59  <gmaxwell> sipa: no.
 6692017-11-30T19:33:07  <sipa> i assume not - if you're fine with trusted setup, just generate a single key and split it layer
 6702017-11-30T19:33:13  <sipa> ok, so it is entirely unrelated
 6712017-11-30T19:33:15  * jtimon is curious about the "review nits reduction" topic...
 6722017-11-30T19:33:25  <wumpus> yes it's just to prevent the person doing the code signing from becoming a specific target
 6732017-11-30T19:34:12  <jonasschnelli> review nit reduction topic?
 6742017-11-30T19:34:25  <gmaxwell> sipa: it just uses paillier, and lots of roundtrips. it's pretty simple.
 6752017-11-30T19:34:48  <wumpus> #topic review nit reduction
 6762017-11-30T19:35:10  <jonasschnelli> I just feel that we spend a lot of time in finding code-style nits, fixing code-style nits and some of the PRs are almost a single wall of nits... It doesn't seem to be efficient... I think..
 6772017-11-30T19:35:30  <jonasschnelli> We should enforce the rules... ( I know I already brought that up )
 6782017-11-30T19:36:02  *** nanymouse has quit IRC
 6792017-11-30T19:36:03  <jonasschnelli> The libcurl project does that... it won't compile (make) if the code style doesn't matches
 6802017-11-30T19:36:10  <jonasschnelli> It would reduce the review time a lot...
 6812017-11-30T19:36:20  <jonasschnelli> And we apperently fixing the nits anyways at some point in time
 6822017-11-30T19:36:52  <jtimon> you mean getting travis to complain about style nits?
 6832017-11-30T19:36:56  <Provoostenator> Currently we're only running whitespace linter?
 6842017-11-30T19:37:10  <jonasschnelli> jtimon: travis already does this... (whitespace)
 6852017-11-30T19:37:18  <BlueMatt> if there were an easy way to apply it to new code only, I'd say thats probably fine
 6862017-11-30T19:37:27  <jonasschnelli> I just want to get the code styling nits away from github comments
 6872017-11-30T19:37:28  * jtimon nods
 6882017-11-30T19:37:33  <BlueMatt> but it was my impression we were not able to find a way to do so
 6892017-11-30T19:37:42  <jonasschnelli> BlueMatt: only new code. Yes.
 6902017-11-30T19:37:47  <jtimon> BlueMatt: that was my understanding too
 6912017-11-30T19:38:03  <wumpus> so have e.g. clang-format check the diff of pull requests?
 6922017-11-30T19:38:12  <sipa> jonasschnelli: (brainstorming) or we could have a bot that marks a PR ready for review only after all nits are fixed
 6932017-11-30T19:38:15  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. Can we enforce that somehow?
 6942017-11-30T19:38:28  <jonasschnelli> sipa: Would also be something.. yes.
 6952017-11-30T19:38:31  <sipa> so that people know not to look at something while there is still automated review going on
 6962017-11-30T19:38:32  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: I don't know...
 6972017-11-30T19:38:33  <Provoostenator> It would also help to offer some hints for developers how to run linters in their editor. I'll add an entry for OSX Atom once I figure it out myself.
 6982017-11-30T19:38:35  <jtimon> didn't someone wrote something like that at some point?
 6992017-11-30T19:38:41  <wumpus> sipa: as long as it doesn't generate noise (posts) that's ok with me
 7002017-11-30T19:38:55  <wumpus> sipa: so if it works like travis, just adds another cross to the status
 7012017-11-30T19:38:59  <jonasschnelli> Would something speak against enforcing the clang-format-diff check during make?
 7022017-11-30T19:39:02  <wumpus> w/ a link to the list of problems
 7032017-11-30T19:39:02  <sipa> wumpus: right,t hat would be nice
 7042017-11-30T19:39:08  <meshcollider> BlueMatt: adding new linters to Travis would only affect PRs now since #11699
 7052017-11-30T19:39:10  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11699 | [travis-ci] Only run linters on Pull Requests by jnewbery · Pull Request #11699 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 7062017-11-30T19:39:14  <wumpus> but I don't want any bots that generate notifications in my mail
 7072017-11-30T19:39:32  <sipa> right
 7082017-11-30T19:39:33  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes, That would disturb even more
 7092017-11-30T19:39:46  <jonasschnelli> Just an indication if its ready to review...
 7102017-11-30T19:39:59  <jonasschnelli> And so we can have less of those "brackets, spaces missing blabla"
 7112017-11-30T19:40:32  * BlueMatt was always in favor, did we find out if we could get a reasonably stable output out of clang-format?
 7122017-11-30T19:40:38  <BlueMatt> or was it always very version-dependant?
 7132017-11-30T19:40:47  <jonasschnelli> It just feels some reviews are more or less a "clang-format diff output"
 7142017-11-30T19:40:52  <wumpus> I like how golang handles that, they just have one true style
 7152017-11-30T19:41:12  <wumpus> and their linter can be safely used in e.g. pull request checks, w/ no ambiguity
 7162017-11-30T19:41:14  <jtimon> jonasschnelli: wouldn't we need to comply with clang format in the whole project before doing the clang check in make? has anyone seen haw many changes trying to apply clang-format to the whole project produces right now?
 7172017-11-30T19:41:29  <morcos> do we have good developer documentation on how to do the right thing locally (not what the rules are, but how to check them?)
 7182017-11-30T19:41:32  <sipa> you can apply clang-format on just the diffs
 7192017-11-30T19:41:37  <meshcollider> jtimon: not if it's only run on the diff
 7202017-11-30T19:41:44  <jonasschnelli> yes
 7212017-11-30T19:41:47  <sipa> but clang-format only checks whitespace/newlines
 7222017-11-30T19:41:47  <wumpus> morcos: good point!
 7232017-11-30T19:41:55  <sipa> it doesn't check variable names etc
 7242017-11-30T19:41:56  <jonasschnelli> morcos: we should focus on that
 7252017-11-30T19:41:57  <gmaxwell> A small amount of code style nits on github are probably good for teamwork.
 7262017-11-30T19:42:03  <wumpus> sipa: I think that's fine, those are the ones we want out of the way
 7272017-11-30T19:42:04  <jonasschnelli> sipa: not sure if that is possible
 7282017-11-30T19:42:06  <jtimon> meshcollider: right, only for pr diffs, yeah, I thought he meant every time you build locally
 7292017-11-30T19:42:11  <wumpus> sipa: variable names are more of a human thing anyhow
 7302017-11-30T19:42:17  <wumpus> sipa: so it's fine if humans comment on them
 7312017-11-30T19:42:29  <morcos> i'd be happy to do more locally, i'm sure my PR's are disasters, but it would be nice if a good workflow was spelled out
 7322017-11-30T19:42:44  <jonasschnelli> morcos: Indeed
 7332017-11-30T19:42:48  <meshcollider> Scripted diffs will probably regularly require style change commits too to keep Travis happy
 7342017-11-30T19:42:57  <jtimon> gmaxwell: there's always style nits that go beyond clang-format
 7352017-11-30T19:43:05  <wumpus> I mean it could check basic things like is_this_snake_case for variable names in theory, but not whether it's a good name in the first place...
 7362017-11-30T19:43:13  <sipa> sur
 7372017-11-30T19:43:16  <jonasschnelli> yes
 7382017-11-30T19:43:35  <jonasschnelli> It's more about the naming convenction (m_, snake_case, CONSTANTS, etc,)
 7392017-11-30T19:43:36  <wumpus> and the latter is much more important for maintainablility :-)
 7402017-11-30T19:43:48  <kanzure> do we have a clang-format file
 7412017-11-30T19:43:49  <MarcoFalke> meshcollider: I'd prefer if we didn't use clang-format in scripted diffs. Makes it impossible to reproduce ...
 7422017-11-30T19:43:50  <gmaxwell> jtimon: yes true enough, I guess my point was that they're not all bad.
 7432017-11-30T19:43:52  <wumpus> kanzure: yes
 7442017-11-30T19:43:53  <jonasschnelli> kanzure: yes
 7452017-11-30T19:44:15  <wumpus> contrib/devtools/clang-format-diff.py
 7462017-11-30T19:44:15  <wumpus> src/.clang-format
 7472017-11-30T19:44:25  <kanzure> ah thanks.
 7482017-11-30T19:44:39  <cfields> i assume it'd be possible to setup a git alias that shows the current diff, diff'd against the clang-format result
 7492017-11-30T19:44:43  * cfields plays around
 7502017-11-30T19:44:44  <jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: are you up to write a higher level documentation for the clang-format-diff.py workflow?
 7512017-11-30T19:44:49  * MarcoFalke proposed to add '.style.yapf' and hides
 7522017-11-30T19:44:56  <jtimon> wumpus: right, that's what I remember being written
 7532017-11-30T19:44:57  <MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: I did
 7542017-11-30T19:45:06  <MarcoFalke> git diff | cfd
 7552017-11-30T19:45:18  <wumpus> yapf?
 7562017-11-30T19:45:19  *** jointek has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 7572017-11-30T19:45:23  <gmaxwell> general problem with clang format is that it isn't stable across versions, or at least hasn't been historically. In general we don't have a highly consistent enviroment htat people contribute from.
 7582017-11-30T19:45:29  <ryanofsky> fwiw, i am not bothered by nits whatsoever. at the very least they mean somebody is actually looking at my pr. i also use clang-format and clang-format diff all the time
 7592017-11-30T19:45:36  <wumpus> gmaxwell: right, that has always bothered about it
 7602017-11-30T19:45:37  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: yeah. that
 7612017-11-30T19:45:39  <MarcoFalke> also what gmaxwell said
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 7632017-11-30T19:45:51  <MarcoFalke> wumpus: The same thing for python
 7642017-11-30T19:45:59  <jtimon> well, the version can be fixed on travis, though
 7652017-11-30T19:46:02  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: that's not very shocking
 7662017-11-30T19:46:21  <jonasschnelli> ryanofsky: nits should still remain... just not stuff that computers can find and are covered by our code styling rules
 7672017-11-30T19:46:23  <sipa> jtimon: right, but that makes travis effectively part of your workflow, which is unfortunate
 7682017-11-30T19:46:42  <wumpus> you need to be able to run any checks that travis does locally
 7692017-11-30T19:46:43  <sipa> jtimon: as in, you won't really know a PR is acceptable before pushing and waiting for travis
 7702017-11-30T19:46:47  <gmaxwell> We could give developers a VM image or equivilent, but it's asking a lot.
 7712017-11-30T19:46:48  <jtimon> sipa: right, or the concrete version if I want to run it locally first
 7722017-11-30T19:47:19  <luke-jr> Travis is slow, too
 7732017-11-30T19:47:30  <sipa> maybe someone should investigate how stable clang-format/ clang-tidy/ iwyu/ ... are
 7742017-11-30T19:47:33  <morcos> my issue with the nits on PR's is it leads to sloppier review.  When nits get fixed and potentially rebased.  Prior reviewers can get sloppy about assuming that the final version is well reviewed, especially if its happened repeatedly
 7752017-11-30T19:47:39  <jonasschnelli> Could we not do a check with clang-format-diff.py during "make" and at least place a bold warning (or even refuse to compile *duck*)
 7762017-11-30T19:48:00  <achow101> jonasschnelli: it would blow up on existing code
 7772017-11-30T19:48:07  <sipa> jonasschnelli: the problem is that different clang-format versions say different things
 7782017-11-30T19:48:20  <jonasschnelli> sipa: significant?
 7792017-11-30T19:48:26  <sipa> jonasschnelli: irrelevant, i think
 7802017-11-30T19:48:29  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: 'make lint' would be nice
 7812017-11-30T19:48:45  <sipa> and making something work on your own system, and then seeing travis complain about the exact same things but requiring something else would be pretty demotivating
 7822017-11-30T19:48:49  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: that would just run all the checks, for C/C++, for python, for whitespace in docs, etc
 7832017-11-30T19:48:49  <cfields> wumpus: +1
 7842017-11-30T19:48:57  <gmaxwell> morcos: that is more a problem with the intermixing of nits and serious review, and also how github handles tracking comments (them magically vanishing when the code changes)
 7852017-11-30T19:49:08  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Maybe it should by bypassable, but the novice contributor should get warned if he uses invalid code-styling
 7862017-11-30T19:49:15  <sipa> gmaxwell: that's no longer true with the 'review' function
 7872017-11-30T19:49:28  <gmaxwell> Obviously we should just pull clang into our code tree and ship it too. :P
 7882017-11-30T19:49:28  <sipa> you can see all former review comments, and the code they apply on
 7892017-11-30T19:49:30  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: well, travis and the person that merge can also check
 7902017-11-30T19:49:37  <jtimon> sipa: oh, that's what is for...
 7912017-11-30T19:49:37  <instagibbs> sipa, interesting, more reason to use it
 7922017-11-30T19:49:38  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: it just should be possible to do it locally too
 7932017-11-30T19:49:49  <morcos> gmaxwell: yes, i'd argue that once serious review stars, nits should not be squashed, but should be left as a cleanup commit at the end.  (at least of some kinds)
 7942017-11-30T19:49:51  <sipa> jtimon: yes, you should use it :)
 7952017-11-30T19:49:54  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: I'm not so much concerned with forcing people to run it but making it easy
 7962017-11-30T19:50:08  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: yes. Travis code style check is not what we want in the first place (it helps,.. but you want to catch it before)
 7972017-11-30T19:50:33  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: well if you don't do it before, travis will stop you and you need to wait longer, simple as that :)
 7982017-11-30T19:50:33  <sipa> something i have noticed is that sometimes 'nit' reviews start on PRs which are far from certain they'll be even concept ACKed
 7992017-11-30T19:50:39  <instagibbs> morcos, we might need to have guidelines for "ACK lockin"
 8002017-11-30T19:50:44  <jonasschnelli> Okay... I'll have a look at lint and something simple within the make-process
 8012017-11-30T19:50:46  <jonasschnelli> sipa: that also
 8022017-11-30T19:50:52  <cfields> morcos: i have no problem with squashing nits as the pre/post-squash can be diff'd locally. It's rebasing to master that makes re-review a challenge imo.
 8032017-11-30T19:51:05  <wumpus> sipa: yeah... then it adds even more nosie
 8042017-11-30T19:51:07  <instagibbs> cfields, can be diffed if you locally checked
 8052017-11-30T19:51:20  <sipa> cfields: right, i try to avoid rebasing, but i pretty liberally squash nits
 8062017-11-30T19:51:21  <instagibbs> many times im just reading off of github(lazy)
 8072017-11-30T19:51:36  <sipa> cfields: and i don't mind others doing that too, except for very complicated PRs
 8082017-11-30T19:51:38  <instagibbs> unless it's a particularly intense series of commits
 8092017-11-30T19:51:41  <achow101> instagibbs: that kind of breaks when there's lots of merge conflicts
 8102017-11-30T19:51:51  <wumpus> sometimes I wish 'git fetch' could fetch by commit id to fetch individual commits, unfortunately that doesn't work
 8112017-11-30T19:52:00  <cfields> pretty sure github can show the diff from a squash a well, you just have to come up with the url for it
 8122017-11-30T19:52:03  <gmaxwell> well we have contributors who don't feel comfortable (or just don't have the expirence) to do much other than nit reviews. Their contributions are usually pretty helpful and I wouldn't want to ask most of them to stop. We could perhaps ask them to wait a day on new PRs so that there is at least time for Concept NAKs to show up first.
 8132017-11-30T19:52:05  <wumpus> it can only be used with branch names
 8142017-11-30T19:52:38  <wumpus> github can give you the patch for an arbitrary commit id though, but it's kind of annoying to do automatically
 8152017-11-30T19:52:54  <gmaxwell> it is a little sad for someone to show up with a change, and then have two cycles on trivial changes before someone more expirenced comes in and says no-way-because-x.
 8162017-11-30T19:53:02  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yeah...
 8172017-11-30T19:53:04  <aj> gmaxwell: might be helpful to tag PRs as looking for concept acks vs looking for nits and style vs looking for tested acks and merging?
 8182017-11-30T19:53:08  <MarcoFalke> wumpus: We could set up a bot to create branches for each utACK that is posted to gh
 8192017-11-30T19:53:13  <instagibbs> not nitting a PR that doens't have any ACKs of any kind seems like a decent rule
 8202017-11-30T19:53:16  <MarcoFalke> on a separate repo that is
 8212017-11-30T19:53:23  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: that'd be kind of nice
 8222017-11-30T19:53:28  <jtimon> cfields: at the same time rebasing is often good, for example, #8994 could unexpectedly start failing tests even if no new conflicts appear and github says it's all ready to merge it
 8232017-11-30T19:53:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8994 | Testchains: Introduce custom chain whose constructor... by jtimon · Pull Request #8994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 8242017-11-30T19:53:48  <wumpus> rebasing is often necessary
 8252017-11-30T19:53:52  <jonasschnelli> Yes. What aj says. The things is just, unenforced user rules tend to get ignored. :)
 8262017-11-30T19:53:54  <Provoostenator> gmaxwell: as long as you learn something from the nits, it's not the end of the world having them concept-nacked later, imo
 8272017-11-30T19:54:00  <MarcoFalke> then `git fetch bitcoin_reviewed_commits` will get you all the reviews
 8282017-11-30T19:54:01  <gmaxwell> sometimes you don't know what you're going to do when you read it.. there are certantly PRs where I read them and then come away with no real opinions on it other than "you missed some braces here and there"
 8292017-11-30T19:54:13  <wumpus> some files are hotspots and generate a lot of merge conflicts
 8302017-11-30T19:54:28  <wumpus> although it's better now that main.cpp is dead
 8312017-11-30T19:54:32  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: no, but some people find it demotivating; 'they made me do more work then threw it out'. :)
 8322017-11-30T19:54:52  <Provoostenator> True
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 8352017-11-30T19:55:10  <wumpus> Provoostenator: these are not the kind of nits that help you learn btter programming :)
 8362017-11-30T19:55:30  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: that can be resolved with a better perspective; bitcoin development is a distributed process, your effort is your contribution not the fact that it was merged, etc.
 8372017-11-30T19:55:32  *** ghost43 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 8382017-11-30T19:55:48  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: indeed
 8392017-11-30T19:55:52  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: but we can't really send every new contributor to a zen mastery class before they contribute.
 8402017-11-30T19:56:10  <Provoostenator> Well, we could... but that would be flagged as spam :-)
 8412017-11-30T19:56:11  <wumpus> Provoostenator: if it's a nit like 'it's better to use build in function X' or 'the loop can be more efficiently written like this' then I think it's great
 8422017-11-30T19:57:17  <cfields> a slightly different work-flow might be: create a "fixed nits" commit on top of the branch, and squash all nits into that as they arise. Then merge that in without squashing.
 8432017-11-30T19:57:40  <cfields> it makes for ugly commits getting merged in, but avoids the re-review after squash-for-nits issue.
 8442017-11-30T19:57:41  <Provoostenator> So far I find most of the nits I received useful. They either taught me to look up coding practices, or motivated me to figure out how to run a linter.
 8452017-11-30T19:57:44  <gmaxwell> a challenge with that is that we do get new contributions from people with zero git expirence.
 8462017-11-30T19:58:10  <sipa> who think they need to open a new PR to fix a nit :)
 8472017-11-30T19:58:10  <wumpus> the git basics stuff is explained pretty well in the contributing doc nowadays
 8482017-11-30T19:58:27  <aj> do people think the +1, +0, -1, concept nak/ack thing from https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11426#issuecomment-334091207 is good btw?
 8492017-11-30T19:58:29  <wumpus> I've not gotten the question on how to squash a commit for a long time now
 8502017-11-30T19:58:39  *** SopaXorzTaker has quit IRC
 8512017-11-30T19:58:41  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I've noticed that, I wondered why.
 8522017-11-30T19:59:03  <instagibbs> oh that's where -0 came from
 8532017-11-30T19:59:03  <Provoostenator> Some projects make a giant squashed merge commit and just point to the original PR (e.g. AngularJS), but that's not ideal for other reasons.
 8542017-11-30T19:59:33  <BlueMatt> aj: yes, I'm a fan
 8552017-11-30T19:59:37  <wumpus> Provoostenator: we only want to encourage squashing when it's iterative changes, not atomic separate changes
 8562017-11-30T19:59:40  <jtimon> aj: I would have preffered that BlueMatt had maintained a nack but answered my questions/rebute, to be honest
 8572017-11-30T19:59:42  <BlueMatt> specifically caues we end up with lots of need for concept review
 8582017-11-30T20:00:13  <BlueMatt> we have lots of prs where lots of folks are +0/-0 and dont think its worth review
 8592017-11-30T20:00:16  <BlueMatt> but they sit open for months
 8602017-11-30T20:00:17  <BlueMatt> which is bad
 8612017-11-30T20:00:24  <MarcoFalke> +0 on end meeting
 8622017-11-30T20:00:29  <BlueMatt> +1
 8632017-11-30T20:00:29  <instagibbs> -0
 8642017-11-30T20:00:31  <wumpus> oh, it's that time already
 8652017-11-30T20:00:33  <wumpus> #endmeeting
 8662017-11-30T20:00:33  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 30 20:00:33 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
 8672017-11-30T20:00:33  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-30-19.00.html
 8682017-11-30T20:00:33  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-30-19.00.txt
 8692017-11-30T20:00:33  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-11-30-19.00.log.html
 8702017-11-30T20:01:00  <instagibbs> so hold on, the numbers are for what? pre-ACK reflection on idea?
 8712017-11-30T20:01:13  <BlueMatt> generally, ive been usint them as that, yea
 8722017-11-30T20:01:19  <MarcoFalke> warren: I tested it in august. Should still work, as the vm-builder is compiled from source
 8732017-11-30T20:01:21  <BlueMatt> see aj's link
 8742017-11-30T20:01:21  <wumpus> did we just spend an hour talking about nits and code signing, oh - also the signmessage thing :-)
 8752017-11-30T20:01:28  <BlueMatt> yes :(
 8762017-11-30T20:01:34  <jtimon> BlueMatt: if they are worth merging I don't think it's bad they sit open for months, even if a couple of  folks said -0
 8772017-11-30T20:01:35  <instagibbs> wumpus, 0.16 release too
 8782017-11-30T20:01:38  <BlueMatt> spent an hour talking about how we waste time on nits
 8792017-11-30T20:01:42  <MarcoFalke> warren: We do that on debian and ubuntu, so I sticked with it
 8802017-11-30T20:01:42  <wumpus> BlueMatt: lol!
 8812017-11-30T20:01:46  <wumpus> instagibbs: yes, you're right
 8822017-11-30T20:01:48  <morcos> didn't you guys have a libevent topic
 8832017-11-30T20:01:50  <aj> instagibbs: https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#expressing-votes-1-0-1-and-fractions is the apache link
 8842017-11-30T20:01:53  <instagibbs> BlueMatt, more irc meetings until throughput increases
 8852017-11-30T20:01:57  <BlueMatt> wumpus: <BlueMatt> oh, wait, i dont have one...hmmmm, I'd say #10279
 8862017-11-30T20:02:00  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10279 | Add a CChainState class to validation.cpp to take another step towards clarifying internal interfaces by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #10279 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 8872017-11-30T20:02:11  <jtimon> so, yeah, how long is "shortly after" for 0.16 ?
 8882017-11-30T20:02:11  <Provoostenator> Is there a safe way to make Travis cache more stuff? It's insanely slow.
 8892017-11-30T20:02:28  <BlueMatt> fuck, we forgot to talk about cfields' libevent question :(
 8902017-11-30T20:02:33  <BlueMatt> that actually mattered
 8912017-11-30T20:02:42  <instagibbs> feel free to talk on it
 8922017-11-30T20:02:47  <morcos> well if you, wumpus and cfields are here, you can still talk
 8932017-11-30T20:02:48  <cfields> it's ok, I'm still investigating something locally
 8942017-11-30T20:02:57  <gmaxwell> too bad we're not allowed to talk about things except in meetings :(
 8952017-11-30T20:03:07  <Dizzle> Has libevent merged pass-in-your-own-socket yet?
 8962017-11-30T20:03:10  <cfields> heh
 8972017-11-30T20:03:32  <cfields> The specific issue is how to deal with #11785
 8982017-11-30T20:03:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11785 | Prevent file-descriptor exhaustion from RPC layer by vii · Pull Request #11785 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 8992017-11-30T20:03:42  <wumpus> Dizzle: I don't think so
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 9012017-11-30T20:04:07  <wumpus> Dizzle: at least not for the http client, if you mean that, there's ton of ways to pass your own socket but not there
 9022017-11-30T20:04:29  <cfields> I'm not convinced that we can fix it entirely, so it remains unclear what to do about it
 9032017-11-30T20:04:49  <Dizzle> wumpus: thanks, that's what I was wondering about. stratum wallet and stratum mining projects are looking forward to unix socket RPC
 9042017-11-30T20:04:50  <gmaxwell> well we could always merge some code that tries to increase our FD count, but thats not a fix.
 9052017-11-30T20:05:01  <instagibbs> aj I still don't see the exact relationship between the numbers and ACKs.
 9062017-11-30T20:05:18  <wumpus> BlueMatt: you mean #10279 for high priority for review?
 9072017-11-30T20:05:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10279 | Add a CChainState class to validation.cpp to take another step towards clarifying internal interfaces by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #10279 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 9082017-11-30T20:05:21  <BlueMatt> yes
 9092017-11-30T20:05:22  <instagibbs> seems to be concept ACK on sliding scale
 9102017-11-30T20:05:43  <wumpus> Dizzle: do you need it to be in bitcoin-cli for that?
 9112017-11-30T20:05:52  <cfields> gmaxwell: the second part of the PR does that, but that makes me really nervous :(
 9122017-11-30T20:06:00  <aj> instagibbs: +1 -1 = concept ack / concept nak; in between is "leaning this way or not, but not decided either way"
 9132017-11-30T20:06:11  <wumpus> Dizzle: we could just merge the server side, then you can use it from your own code, just not the command line
 9142017-11-30T20:06:13  <Dizzle> wumpus: nope, most pools and electrum servers use json-rpc themselves for that.
 9152017-11-30T20:06:21  <Dizzle> that would be neat!
 9162017-11-30T20:06:24  <instagibbs> aj ok so it is a replacement for concept acks... that makes more sense
 9172017-11-30T20:06:30  <BlueMatt> mostly I love -0 - I dont think this is worth anyone's time to review, but if others want to, fine
 9182017-11-30T20:06:54  <instagibbs> wumpus, speaking of merge ready, 10677
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 9202017-11-30T20:06:56  <Dizzle> BTW, if anyone's curious how Electrum implements message signatures on native segwit addrs, we just iterate through the possible address types until there's match: https://github.com/spesmilo/electrum/blob/66cce115ef93c913d65ef5c7d781c8065f79bbaf/lib/bitcoin.py#L632
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 9222017-11-30T20:07:00  <gmaxwell> cfields: don't we have to eliminate the use of select before we go increasing the default maximum beyond FD_SETSIZE?
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 9242017-11-30T20:07:10  <wumpus> Dizzle: I don't think it's awfully useful in bitcoin-cli anyhow though it's useful for testing (though OTOH, the patch also changed the RPC testing framework to be able to use UNIX sockets)
 9252017-11-30T20:07:25  <wumpus> instagibbs: ok
 9262017-11-30T20:07:40  <cfields> gmaxwell: I believe the limit becomes FD_SETSIZE*2 if you're using 2 select loops?
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 9292017-11-30T20:08:04  <wumpus> cfields: no
 9302017-11-30T20:08:10  <gmaxwell> to my great shame I seem to have forgotten how select is implemented internally. :P
 9312017-11-30T20:08:24  <wumpus> cfields: select limits the max fd, using multiple selects doesn't change that
 9322017-11-30T20:08:45  <wumpus> we should probably have switched to poll a long time ago
 9332017-11-30T20:09:23  <wumpus> IIRC there have been PRs for that, but rejected because libevent P2P was just around the corner...
 9342017-11-30T20:09:27  <gmaxwell> cfields: we've been waiting forever for the great networking refactors to eliminate the use of select, but perhaps this is a mistake-- select on windows scales fine, and switchin to poll on *nix is a couple line patch IIRC.
 9352017-11-30T20:09:29  <cfields> well regardless, libevent is using epoll/kqueue/etc. here, so the select limits don't (or shouldn't) apply to rpc
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 9372017-11-30T20:09:51  <wumpus> cfields: no, but the fd's used might be in select's limit!
 9382017-11-30T20:10:06  <wumpus> cfields: if 1024 fd's are used, then select is dead, no matter who claimed them
 9392017-11-30T20:10:13  <gmaxwell> cfields: yes, but if we increase the process FD count, we're going to end up with FDs with high numbers which I thought broke select but as mentioned since I seem to have forgotten how it works internally I could be confused.
 9402017-11-30T20:10:25  <wumpus> gmaxwell: you're right
 9412017-11-30T20:10:51  <wumpus> cfields: you're right that RPC itself won't be affected, but it still messes up P2P nevertheless
 9422017-11-30T20:10:51  <cfields> ok, i was confused about the limit then.
 9432017-11-30T20:11:18  <gmaxwell> cfields: basically as-i-fake-recall the FD number itself is converted into a position in the array, so if you only have 8 FD's monitored but one of them has number 21318 you're going to be in trouble.
 9442017-11-30T20:11:37  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yup the fd number is converted to a bit position in the array
 9452017-11-30T20:11:52  <wumpus> which is also what makes it so inefficient
 9462017-11-30T20:12:00  <wumpus> if it is a sparse array....
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 9492017-11-30T20:12:35  <gmaxwell> I believe bluematt wrote a very small patch to change bitcoin to poll.  We could take, that and wrap it in ifdefs so we still select on windows, and call that sub-issue done.
 9502017-11-30T20:12:55  <BlueMatt> none of these things solve the problem....
 9512017-11-30T20:13:00  <BlueMatt> the issue ends up being in eg leveldb
 9522017-11-30T20:13:09  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no but it lets you increase the process limit above 1024.
 9532017-11-30T20:13:10  <BlueMatt> i mean it'll blow up our p2p first, but mostly thats not a big deal
 9542017-11-30T20:13:14  <wumpus> does leveldb use select?
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 9562017-11-30T20:13:22  <gmaxwell> since when does leveldb use select?
 9572017-11-30T20:13:24  <wumpus> I don't hink so
 9582017-11-30T20:13:28  <BlueMatt> wumpus: no, in this case we literally ran out of process fds
 9592017-11-30T20:13:34  <wumpus> leveldb only croaks if you run out of all process fds
 9602017-11-30T20:13:49  <wumpus> which is what vii's patch more or less solves
 9612017-11-30T20:13:53  <gmaxwell> As I said above: increasing the count isn't a _fix_; ... but it's a pretty good mitigation.
 9622017-11-30T20:14:22  <wumpus> at least the obvious 'attack RPC with tons of separate connections' doesn't work as an exhaustion attack anymore after that
 9632017-11-30T20:14:24  <BlueMatt> increasing the count also mostly doesnt break p2p, p2p will just keep opening new sockets until it gets a low numbered one
 9642017-11-30T20:14:28  <cfields> wumpus: unfortunately, it doesn't :(
 9652017-11-30T20:14:33  <wumpus> cfields: oh?
 9662017-11-30T20:14:35  <BlueMatt> its smart enough to handle it
 9672017-11-30T20:14:49  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: really? what? lol.
 9682017-11-30T20:15:00  <cfields> wumpus: nah, i can still exhaust the FDs with little effort.
 9692017-11-30T20:15:02  <BlueMatt> i mean its not *that* smart, eg it will fail each connection
 9702017-11-30T20:15:09  <BlueMatt> but it wil lkeep trying to make connections
 9712017-11-30T20:15:16  <wumpus> cfields: so we really need a fix at the libevent side?
 9722017-11-30T20:15:20  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: so if an incoming connection has a high FD number it just drops it?
 9732017-11-30T20:15:24  <BlueMatt> yes
 9742017-11-30T20:15:46  <wumpus> it's interesting as I did load tests when I started using libevent and never stumbled on this
 9752017-11-30T20:16:08  <gmaxwell> thats really ugly, and doesn't let us increase the maximum, consider, we make the maximum 65536... and the most of your connections start getting dropped. :)
 9762017-11-30T20:16:15  <cfields> wumpus: yes. Problem is that it does while(something){accept()...}
 9772017-11-30T20:16:16  <wumpus> if I only had known its http server was so crappy :(
 9782017-11-30T20:16:32  <cfields> so if you manage to make a shitload of connections while it's in that loop, it'll keep swallowing 'em
 9792017-11-30T20:16:34  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: i mean if your rpc is getting flooded you probably want to drop most connections :p
 9802017-11-30T20:16:45  <BlueMatt> cause you're already overloaded
 9812017-11-30T20:16:51  <wumpus> BlueMatt: yes, you want to drop them
 9822017-11-30T20:17:05  <wumpus> BlueMatt: that would be the right solution, not hoard file descriptors
 9832017-11-30T20:17:15  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea sure but I think the FD assignment is next highest in range until it hits the maximum, not lowest available.
 9842017-11-30T20:17:38  <wumpus> AFAIK fd assignment is lowest available on many OSes
 9852017-11-30T20:17:47  <BlueMatt> hmm, my node doesnt seem to break and i run with high fd limit
 9862017-11-30T20:17:49  <gmaxwell> okay, I needed to be wrong about at least one thing.
 9872017-11-30T20:17:52  <BlueMatt> so....dont think so on linux?
 9882017-11-30T20:17:57  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: without the poll patch?
 9892017-11-30T20:18:00  <BlueMatt> yes, without
 9902017-11-30T20:18:05  <wumpus> try to close stdout and the next fd you open :-)
 9912017-11-30T20:18:11  <BlueMatt> i stopped using it and you can still get something like 800 maxonncections
 9922017-11-30T20:18:22  <gmaxwell> gessh comeone we should just switch to poll, if its *nix only it should be a dozen line patch.
 9932017-11-30T20:18:29  <gmaxwell> wumpus: lol.
 9942017-11-30T20:18:39  * BlueMatt 's point is that it is almost entirely irrelevant to this issue
 9952017-11-30T20:19:10  <wumpus> it's still relevant though
 9962017-11-30T20:19:12  <gmaxwell> well increasing the fd count would change the urgency.
 9972017-11-30T20:19:35  * BlueMatt 's point is we can increase fd count today
 9982017-11-30T20:19:38  <BlueMatt> without poll
 9992017-11-30T20:19:52  <wumpus> maybe not for this specific issue, but there's no good reason at all we're still using select, it only has drawbacks
10002017-11-30T20:20:00  <BlueMatt> fair
10012017-11-30T20:20:03  <gmaxwell> I really don't want to troubleshoot mysterious connection failures from "your FD was too high"
10022017-11-30T20:20:10  <Dizzle> Does select do ok on macOS? If not, would need to add kqueue polling to those 12 lines of code.
10032017-11-30T20:20:44  <gmaxwell> oh right osx poll is broken isn't it?
10042017-11-30T20:21:02  <wumpus> how is poll broken on osx?
10052017-11-30T20:21:29  <gmaxwell> https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2016/10/11/poll-on-mac-10-12-is-broken/
10062017-11-30T20:22:00  <gmaxwell> sounds like they've fixed it, broken it again, and fixed it.
10072017-11-30T20:22:08  <wumpus> lol I'm not surprised, even validating the root password seems to be too difficult for them
10082017-11-30T20:22:24  <cfields> iirc they're just flip-flopping on undefined return values?
10092017-11-30T20:23:09  <gmaxwell> yea, it seems like that the case discussed there should be easy to avoid.
10102017-11-30T20:23:15  <wumpus> they took poor old freebsd and turned it to crap
10112017-11-30T20:23:55  <Dizzle> Of note, in addition to the issue that blog mentions, macOS' poll doesn't work on devices.
10122017-11-30T20:24:06  <gmaxwell> but shiny plastic crap
10132017-11-30T20:24:12  <gmaxwell> we only need it on sockets.
10142017-11-30T20:24:53  <wumpus> indeed, that doesn't matter
10152017-11-30T20:25:20  <wumpus> windows can't do select on devices or files either,we don't use that
10162017-11-30T20:26:03  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: where is that poll patch?
10172017-11-30T20:26:26  <BlueMatt> uhhhh, lost?
10182017-11-30T20:26:28  <BlueMatt> i dunno
10192017-11-30T20:27:29  <Dizzle> I feel like ifdefing kqueue isn't a big stretch if we're already ifdefing poll. Python project ended up with a selector selector API on top of all this: https://docs.python.org/3/library/selectors.html#selectors.DefaultSelector
10202017-11-30T20:27:57  *** esotericnonsense has quit IRC
10212017-11-30T20:28:11  <gmaxwell> Dizzle: no probably not but whats the gain?
10222017-11-30T20:28:27  <Dizzle> performance and it works on those few versions of OS X with the broken poll
10232017-11-30T20:28:46  <gmaxwell> the performance differences are negligible for our sorts of usage.
10242017-11-30T20:29:03  <cfields> Dizzle: there's an abstraction that's done-ish, waiting on pre-requisites to go in. It uses epoll/kqueue/poll/etc. The poll discussion here arose because presumably it'd be simple.
10252017-11-30T20:29:05  <wumpus> on the fd assignment, this prints "0" on linux 4.10.0 https://gist.github.com/laanwj/8125d4971728dcfe85f6f5bd09dd572f , so at least anecdotally linux seems to assign the first available fd
10262017-11-30T20:29:30  <wumpus> Dizzle: that's why the goal is to move P2P to libevent, it already handles all those polling methods
10272017-11-30T20:29:30  <Dizzle> cfields: this abstraction on libevent or bitcoin core?
10282017-11-30T20:29:38  <cfields> yea
10292017-11-30T20:29:45  <Dizzle> OK, great. Sorry for the noise then :)
10302017-11-30T20:30:06  <wumpus> we really don't want to replicate all of that
10312017-11-30T20:30:08  <gmaxwell> the general problem with more ifdef paths is less coverage, the majority of the developers are are on linux, as are the majority of serious technical users who will try strange things and actually report results.
10322017-11-30T20:30:09  <cfields> #11227
10332017-11-30T20:30:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11227 | WIP: switch to libevent for node socket handling by theuni · Pull Request #11227 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10342017-11-30T20:30:56  <gmaxwell> so we should have a strong general preference to minimize platform ifdefs just on the basis that if we introduce a bug in one of them, it may take a long time to discover and fix.
10352017-11-30T20:31:00  <cfields> wumpus: as a data point, even with #11785, i can exhaust all handles via rpc in a minute or two.
10362017-11-30T20:31:01  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11785 | Prevent file-descriptor exhaustion from RPC layer by vii · Pull Request #11785 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
10372017-11-30T20:31:02  <wumpus> at least the low-level libevent stuff is well tested
10382017-11-30T20:31:18  <gmaxwell> yes, at least libevent gets testing by other people.
10392017-11-30T20:31:19  <cfields> So I'm not sure that it's worth adding work-around hacks
10402017-11-30T20:31:48  <wumpus> cfields: so what can we do? (except say "don't do this")
10412017-11-30T20:31:57  <wumpus> I mean it's kind of sad to DoS yourself
10422017-11-30T20:32:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #11803: Bugfix: RPC/Wallet: Include HD key metadata in dumpwallet (master...bugfix_dumpwallet_hdkeypath) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11803
10432017-11-30T20:32:17  <wumpus> and outside of localhost I doubt you'll ever accomplish such a rate
10442017-11-30T20:32:31  <gmaxwell> Though I think our general expirence with dependencies (including, sadly, libevent) is that we still run into bugs in them... in part because everything everywhere is broken, and small brokenness in most things is just background noise. ... so the fact that dependency foo is widely used helps less than we might guess.
10452017-11-30T20:32:45  <wumpus> that's just a fact of life, everything has bugs
10462017-11-30T20:33:01  <cfields> wumpus: yea, i'm not really sure
10472017-11-30T20:33:18  <gmaxwell> split rpc into another process. :P
10482017-11-30T20:33:19  <wumpus> I mean we even find gcc bugs
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10502017-11-30T20:33:42  <wumpus> if anything should be well-tested...
10512017-11-30T20:33:44  <gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, well I used to comment that I was worried about our testing because we weren't finding GCC bugs. Glad thats fixed now. :)
10522017-11-30T20:34:01  <cfields> gmaxwell: yea, i expected some opposition, especially as these bugs crop up. I'd be ok with doing our own abstractions if it came down to it.
10532017-11-30T20:34:12  <wumpus> cfields: could we patch it at the libevent side?
10542017-11-30T20:34:26  <wumpus> cfields: I think trying to fix it in bitcoind is looking at it the wrong way
10552017-11-30T20:34:33  <gmaxwell> I think we should fix libevent.
10562017-11-30T20:34:34  <wumpus> cfields: it's a libevent bug
10572017-11-30T20:34:45  <cfields> wumpus: yea, pretty easily I believe
10582017-11-30T20:35:11  <wumpus> cfields: trying to work around upstream issues (at least permanently) instead of fixing them is pretty not done in open source
10592017-11-30T20:35:21  <cfields> through it might kill performance in some applications, so I'm not sure they'd want it upstream
10602017-11-30T20:35:22  <gmaxwell> and in the short term apply some mitigations in bitcoin, like increasing the FD count (ugh but I really don't like counting on FD magnitude sniffing)
10612017-11-30T20:35:40  <cfields> *though
10622017-11-30T20:35:46  <gmaxwell> cfields: surely exausting a processes' FDs isn't a cool move.
10632017-11-30T20:35:47  <wumpus> cfields: I don't think they care about performance in the http server
10642017-11-30T20:36:31  <cfields> wumpus: well it's in the listener, which is intended to be generic. The http server is just a user
10652017-11-30T20:36:37  <cfields> but yes, I'll do up a patch
10662017-11-30T20:36:38  <Randolf> [Syntax]:  That's a nice way to encourage people.  I like that.
10672017-11-30T20:36:42  <gmaxwell> among other things, it can contribute to amazing security vulns and remote crashes when it makes it impossible to open /dev/urandom to get randomness.
10682017-11-30T20:36:46  <Randolf> Whoops, sorry, wrong channel.
10692017-11-30T20:37:16  <wumpus> cfields: so the bug is deeper than just the http server, and woudl affect other clients (such as tor) as well?
10702017-11-30T20:37:19  <wumpus> cfields: now I'm interested :)
10712017-11-30T20:37:46  <cfields> wumpus: I'm unsure who/what else uses the listener
10722017-11-30T20:37:49  <BlueMatt> cfields: having a limited queue is a simple patch upstream *should* do
10732017-11-30T20:38:04  <cfields> i assume their dns server, as a quick example
10742017-11-30T20:38:51  <BlueMatt> so you can crash their dns server with enough tcp traffic?
10752017-11-30T20:39:15  <cfields> sec, checking
10762017-11-30T20:39:32  <gmaxwell> FWIW speaking of urandom, we'll assert if the open fails, so if you didn't know it this exhaust issue probably also causes (safe) crashes for us.
10772017-11-30T20:40:08  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes luckily we check for that
10782017-11-30T20:41:06  <cfields> ok no, they only use the listener internally for http
10792017-11-30T20:41:24  <BlueMatt> what else uses libevent's http server?
10802017-11-30T20:41:25  *** andrelam has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
10812017-11-30T20:41:26  <wumpus> cfields: I have a tor checkout here, anything I can easily grep for to see if they use it?
10822017-11-30T20:41:28  <BlueMatt> anything should be crashable
10832017-11-30T20:41:40  <cfields> wumpus: evconnlistener
10842017-11-30T20:42:08  <wumpus> cfields: no matches
10852017-11-30T20:42:23  <cfields> whew :)
10862017-11-30T20:43:23  <wumpus> they also don't use evhttp
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10882017-11-30T20:45:08  <wumpus> they do have a http client in src/or/directory.c but apparently they rolled their own there
10892017-11-30T20:45:31  <wumpus> eh not that the client would suffer from this
10902017-11-30T20:46:41  *** andrelam has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
10912017-11-30T20:49:35  <wumpus> still, there might be tons of things out there that use it
10922017-11-30T20:50:08  <wumpus> so if this can be triggered over the network it might still be reasonably serious
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10942017-11-30T20:51:59  <wumpus> gah why are code search engines so useless
10952017-11-30T20:52:50  <wumpus> find 1000 forks of libevent, of course they have that string
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10972017-11-30T20:53:23  <cfields> testing a patch
10982017-11-30T20:54:13  <wumpus> cfields: cool
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11352017-11-30T22:13:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9e38d357447e...fbce66a98267
11362017-11-30T22:13:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 680bc2c practicalswift: Use range-based for loops (C++11) when looping over map elements...
11372017-11-30T22:13:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fbce66a MarcoFalke: Merge #10493: Use range-based for loops (C++11) when looping over map elements...
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11402017-11-30T22:23:11  <Vision> where are the proxy settings stored for bitcoin-qt?   I cleared the proxy settings in the Options dialog, and now entering the settings dialog causes a crash.  definitely a bug.
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11422017-11-30T22:24:31  <meshcollider> Vision: what operating system?
11432017-11-30T22:24:41  <Vision> meshcollider: windows
11442017-11-30T22:25:00  *** Aaronvan_ has quit IRC
11452017-11-30T22:25:58  <meshcollider> Vision: in that case, the options will be in the registry, under HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Bitcoin\Bitcoin-Qt iirc
11462017-11-30T22:26:04  <wumpus> Vision: what version?
11472017-11-30T22:26:08  <wumpus> (of bitcoin core)
11482017-11-30T22:26:24  <Vision> 15.1 64-bit
11492017-11-30T22:26:28  <wumpus> there was a bug in 0.15.0 which caused crashes in the settings dialog, this was fixed in 0.15.0.1 and 0.15.1
11502017-11-30T22:26:29  <wumpus> ok
11512017-11-30T22:26:34  <meshcollider> Vision: please let us know what values are in the registry before you modify them
11522017-11-30T22:26:38  <Vision> will do
11532017-11-30T22:26:48  <Vision> cuz yeah this is kinda catastrophic
11542017-11-30T22:26:55  <wumpus> it's better to use the flag to clear the gui settings
11552017-11-30T22:27:00  <wumpus> it will automatically make a backup
11562017-11-30T22:27:16  <meshcollider> wumpus: depends if he wants to clear all settings or just fix the proxy issue manually though :)
11572017-11-30T22:27:16  <wumpus> run  bitcoin-qt with -resetguisettings
11582017-11-30T22:27:51  <wumpus> this resets the settings and creates a guisettings.ini.bak with the old settings for troubleshooting
11592017-11-30T22:27:51  <Vision> looks like addrProxy is :10
11602017-11-30T22:27:58  <Vision> lemme change that alone and see if that fixes
11612017-11-30T22:28:00  <achow101> start with -resetguisettings and then drop the backup file here
11622017-11-30T22:28:11  <wumpus> how did you manage to get :10 in there?
11632017-11-30T22:28:19  <meshcollider> just :10 with no IP?
11642017-11-30T22:28:21  <Vision> wumpus: clearing the boxes.
11652017-11-30T22:28:33  <Vision> I think :10 was the port
11662017-11-30T22:28:50  <Vision> maybe I left the port in
11672017-11-30T22:28:55  <Vision> and cleared just the IP
11682017-11-30T22:29:03  <Vision> meshcollider: indeed
11692017-11-30T22:29:05  <achow101> oh, I know how it crashed
11702017-11-30T22:29:10  <wumpus> strange, it shouldn't save in that case, but yeah possible
11712017-11-30T22:29:20  <Vision> oh it saved alright.
11722017-11-30T22:29:38  <achow101> it splits on the colon and does [0] and [1] to get the right params. that'll be an index out of bounds
11732017-11-30T22:29:53  <achow101> if there's no IP and just :port
11742017-11-30T22:30:06  <Vision> aha :D sounds like a culprit achow101.
11752017-11-30T22:30:16  <Vision> yeah I guess I just cleared the IP and not port
11762017-11-30T22:30:26  <Vision> and fixing that in the registry DID clear up the cache.
11772017-11-30T22:30:36  <Vision> CRASH*
11782017-11-30T22:30:41  <Vision> wtf. I swear I'm not retarded.
11792017-11-30T22:30:42  <achow101> I don't know how it let that save though
11802017-11-30T22:31:18  <Vision> once I finish what I was doing I may try to replicate it
11812017-11-30T22:31:54  <Vision> I swear I saw the '10' jump into the IP box before the dialog closed.
11822017-11-30T22:31:57  <Vision> if that helps
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11842017-11-30T22:33:53  <Vision> aaaand I think it crashed instantly at that point.
11852017-11-30T22:36:05  <wumpus> it's clearly possible, though it might be that you stumbled on a very unlikely race condition. The parsing code really shouldn't crash on invalid input anyhow.
11862017-11-30T22:36:54  <Vision> aye
11872017-11-30T22:38:03  <meshcollider> Vision: were you using port 10 before you tried to clear it or is that number completely random
11882017-11-30T22:38:37  <Vision> yep I was
11892017-11-30T22:38:39  <Vision> not random
11902017-11-30T22:40:37  <Vision> oh yeah well that's easy to replicate
11912017-11-30T22:40:56  <Vision> have 'connect through socks5 proxy' checked, have an ip and port in the box, clear IP and hit OK
11922017-11-30T22:40:57  <Vision> instant crash
11932017-11-30T22:41:42  <Vision> and :port gets saved to registry
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11952017-11-30T22:44:05  <wumpus> the code here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/optionsmodel.cpp#L231 for ProxyIP and ProxyPORT needs to catch the condition where the list is empty, or not long enough
11962017-11-30T22:44:27  <meshcollider> Yep I have replicated the issue on 0.15.1
11972017-11-30T22:45:06  <meshcollider> wumpus: I believe that is the part where it is loaded from the registry, we should deal with this when it is saved I think
11982017-11-30T22:45:48  <wumpus> meshcollider: yes but the parsing should be fixed too, it'd be two lines of code or so
11992017-11-30T22:46:30  <wumpus> meshcollider: this is the so-manieth time we run into crashes there for one reason or another
12002017-11-30T22:46:46  <meshcollider> wumpus: yeah :/
12012017-11-30T22:47:13  <Vision> [0] days since last crash
12022017-11-30T22:47:13  <meshcollider> why would this validator return true for an empty string: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/optionsdialog.cpp#L337
12032017-11-30T22:50:37  <Vision> why is 9050 hardcoded in that
12042017-11-30T22:51:17  <meshcollider> it is the default port
12052017-11-30T22:51:23  <meshcollider> if no port is specified
12062017-11-30T22:51:33  <Vision> ah.
12072017-11-30T22:52:11  <Vision> just seems an odd place for it
12082017-11-30T22:52:20  <wumpus> that's tor's default
12092017-11-30T22:54:03  <Vision> (cuz it looks like it's already in src/qt/optionsmodel.cpp as default)
12102017-11-30T22:54:58  <wumpus> yeah, feel free to send a patch that makes it a constant instead
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12202017-11-30T23:39:30  <titim> Hi
12212017-11-30T23:40:03  <titim> lapoda lapoda
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