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462017-12-25T02:41:28 <medo> hi i want to be miner
472017-12-25T02:41:33 <medo> ??
482017-12-25T02:42:23 <Randolf> medo: You should ask in the #bitcoin channel then.
492017-12-25T02:43:05 <medo> yes
502017-12-25T02:43:43 *** Ylbam has quit IRC
512017-12-25T02:44:49 <medo> can you help me to be a miner please
522017-12-25T02:44:52 <medo> !!
532017-12-25T02:44:52 <gribble> Error: "!" is not a valid command.
542017-12-25T02:45:07 <medo> ?
552017-12-25T02:54:10 *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
562017-12-25T03:00:15 <Randolf> medo: The topic you're raising is off-topic here. Please ask in the #bitcoin channel instead.
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702017-12-25T04:17:52 <goatpig> the multi byte op pushdata, are they big or little endian?
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832017-12-25T05:10:18 <achow101> goatpig: little endian
842017-12-25T05:14:49 <goatpig> figured it out, thanks
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1262017-12-25T09:57:33 <akash_> i am expert in giving suggestion how to stop frauds in bitcoin transaction
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1722017-12-25T13:24:09 <ZiNC> Hi.
1732017-12-25T13:24:41 *** zshlyk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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1752017-12-25T13:29:03 *** aguycall_ has quit IRC
1762017-12-25T13:31:08 <ZiNC> Are there debug symbols available for download?
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1912017-12-25T14:24:12 <Anant> help
1922017-12-25T14:24:38 <Anant> how to exchange bitcoin with other coins?
1932017-12-25T14:25:00 <Anant> earn exchange fees?
1942017-12-25T14:26:29 <sipa> Anant: #bitcoin
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2872017-12-25T22:02:29 <LucasMZanella_> Why we must reference the entire txid on a transaction? Could somebody give a feedback on this idea of mine? https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/66464/why-we-must-reference-the-entire-txid-for-each-output-we-want-to-spend
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2922017-12-25T22:09:58 <goatpig> you are introducing some serious complexity and attack vectors with that kind of approach
2932017-12-25T22:13:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] blockcash opened pull request #12022: test (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12022
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2952017-12-25T22:16:31 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #12022: test (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12022
2962017-12-25T22:18:12 <LucasMZanella_> The only attack I can think of is someone 'mining' a transaction until its txid has the same first digits as another. However there's a minimum number of digits that we can choose that would guarantee a million year of brute forcing
2972017-12-25T22:19:46 <goatpig> not with segwit
2982017-12-25T22:20:17 <sipa> LucasMZanella_: you'd need at least 128 bits
2992017-12-25T22:20:34 <LucasMZanella_> What is different with segwit?
3002017-12-25T22:20:39 <sipa> otherwise the security of referencing old transactions would be below that of the digital signatures
3012017-12-25T22:20:49 <goatpig> the outpoint is taking the wtxid instead of the txid
3022017-12-25T22:20:51 <sipa> so you can probabbly save 16 bytes per txin
3032017-12-25T22:20:53 <goatpig> the wtxid has no sig in it
3042017-12-25T22:20:58 <LucasMZanella_> 128 bits is already good, isn't it?
3052017-12-25T22:20:58 <goatpig> therefor it's easy to "mine" a collision
3062017-12-25T22:21:06 <sipa> goatpig: no, txid
3072017-12-25T22:21:35 <goatpig> hmm am i getting confused here?
3082017-12-25T22:21:38 <sipa> yes
3092017-12-25T22:21:47 <sipa> wtxid = inclides witness, txid = no witness
3102017-12-25T22:21:51 <goatpig> oh ok
3112017-12-25T22:21:55 <goatpig> well anyways
3122017-12-25T22:22:07 <sipa> it's also irrelevant in this discussion
3132017-12-25T22:22:10 <goatpig> sw refers to outpoints by the unmalleable id
3142017-12-25T22:22:31 <goatpig> well it's entirely easier to produce collision the txid than the wtxid
3152017-12-25T22:22:38 <goatpig> but sure, that's orhtogonal
3162017-12-25T22:22:44 <sipa> LucasMZanella_: yes, perhaps. it's not worth the effort to change it though
3172017-12-25T22:23:21 <goatpig> you could construct attacks where you force tons of unnecessary hashing per tx
3182017-12-25T22:23:34 <sipa> no
3192017-12-25T22:23:59 <sipa> hmm, nevermind
3202017-12-25T22:24:05 <sipa> you need collision resistance
3212017-12-25T22:24:24 <sipa> goatpig: you're right
3222017-12-25T22:24:50 <goatpig> yeah which has you increase the size of your hash "shortcuts" and kills the size benefit anyways
3232017-12-25T22:24:51 <sipa> LucasMZanella_: disregard what i said; you really need 256-bit hashes in transactions
3242017-12-25T22:25:02 <goatpig> while increasing the cost size of low input tx
3252017-12-25T22:25:05 <LucasMZanella_> How much hashes we need to get a sha256 output to begin with 7 chosen digits?
3262017-12-25T22:25:13 <goatpig> look at miners
3272017-12-25T22:25:25 <sipa> LucasMZanella_: for a collision attack you only need half
3282017-12-25T22:25:48 <LucasMZanella_> Half of what?
3292017-12-25T22:25:52 <sipa> the attacker may be the one doing the reference, which can refer to a transaction that he did a grinsing on before publishing
3302017-12-25T22:25:56 <goatpig> birthday attack
3312017-12-25T22:26:25 <goatpig> well basically you'd mine lots of tx with the starting 7 bytes in the txid
3322017-12-25T22:26:26 *** intcat has quit IRC
3332017-12-25T22:26:32 <goatpig> then create one tx spending like 1000 inputs
3342017-12-25T22:26:35 <goatpig> however many you get
3352017-12-25T22:26:46 <goatpig> and use the the first input as your collided hash
3362017-12-25T22:26:50 <goatpig> forcing tons of hashing for no reason
3372017-12-25T22:26:59 <sipa> goatpig: it's far worse
3382017-12-25T22:26:59 <goatpig> then to reproduce the attack
3392017-12-25T22:27:06 <sipa> you can create a consensus failure
3402017-12-25T22:27:25 <goatpig> ive thought of that but cant come with an example of that attack on the top of my head
3412017-12-25T22:27:34 <sipa> by creating two transactions with the same starting bits
3422017-12-25T22:27:42 *** intcat has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3432017-12-25T22:27:48 <sipa> and then spending it
3442017-12-25T22:28:07 <sipa> making sure one is valid and the other is invalid
3452017-12-25T22:28:26 <goatpig> you mean while unconfirmed?
3462017-12-25T22:28:34 <sipa> hmm, but the chain provides an ordering of course
3472017-12-25T22:28:56 <goatpig> his proposal is to basically attach a merkle root in there
3482017-12-25T22:29:00 <goatpig> with the "shortcuts"
3492017-12-25T22:29:38 <goatpig> i tihnk that's enough to remain deterministic, therefor avoid consensus failures
3502017-12-25T22:29:50 <goatpig> but it's easily attackable
3512017-12-25T22:30:05 <sipa> fair, it's doable in a way that does not cause consensus failure
3522017-12-25T22:30:28 <goatpig> but there's also the cost of increasing the size of low input tx
3532017-12-25T22:30:59 <goatpig> i guess you could "modulate" this, have tx version that uses this proposal to cut on large tx
3542017-12-25T22:31:11 <goatpig> but even then, taht does not reduce the attack vector
3552017-12-25T22:31:40 <sipa> it's also a terrible hard fork
3562017-12-25T22:31:59 <goatpig> couldnt you softfork that ala segwit?
3572017-12-25T22:32:01 <sipa> (as in: not just miners and nodes, but every piece of software will fail without modification)
3582017-12-25T22:32:04 <sipa> no
3592017-12-25T22:32:06 <LucasMZanella_> Could be a soft one
3602017-12-25T22:32:06 <goatpig> i guess you can't pull the segwit trick twice
3612017-12-25T22:32:21 <sipa> segwit didn't remove any existing structures
3622017-12-25T22:32:32 <sipa> it just added an optional new ones
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3642017-12-25T22:32:45 <sipa> truncating txids is not something that fits into that
3652017-12-25T22:32:56 <goatpig> no but (correct me if im wrong) to a not update node, the marker and flag of a segwit tx makes the tx body invisible to the node
3662017-12-25T22:33:13 <sipa> you can't remove the txids without breaking things
3672017-12-25T22:33:18 <LucasMZanella_> Transactions could maintain the structure, but the txid being referenced would be the merkle root. And the 7 digits each would be added inside script
3682017-12-25T22:33:47 <sipa> goatpig: that's just serialization
3692017-12-25T22:33:47 <goatpig> at any rate i wouldnt want that kind of change done without a hf
3702017-12-25T22:33:55 <sipa> i'm not even talking about that
3712017-12-25T22:34:20 <goatpig> sipa: if you can make the content of the tx invisible to older nodes, you can shove anything you want in there basically
3722017-12-25T22:34:35 <sipa> then you don't have any transactions left
3732017-12-25T22:34:45 <sipa> sure, you can move everything to an extension block
3742017-12-25T22:34:49 <sipa> that's always possible
3752017-12-25T22:35:01 <sipa> but that doesn't share anything anymore with existing nodes
3762017-12-25T22:35:18 <sipa> they wouldn't even see the transactions of the new system anymore
3772017-12-25T22:36:05 <LucasMZanella_> Yeah, the old nodes would invalidate the transaction because txid is nonsense
3782017-12-25T22:36:26 <goatpig> sipa: a bit too aggressive i guess =D
3792017-12-25T22:36:31 <sipa> LucasMZanella_: what is the objective?
3802017-12-25T22:36:45 <goatpig> optimize block space usage im guessing
3812017-12-25T22:37:01 <sipa> if it's just bandwidth/storage, a new serialization for transaction could be constructed that does what you're saying (and more)
3822017-12-25T22:37:17 <sipa> but without actually modifying the transactions
3832017-12-25T22:37:24 <sipa> only changing how they're stored
3842017-12-25T22:37:39 <sipa> which means that the full txids still count towards the weight limit
3852017-12-25T22:37:45 <LucasMZanella_> Objective of what? The idea was to be able to spend from lots of txs without having to add one signature + one txid for each. My idea would reduce txid usage in transactions, and schnoor would reduce signature usage
3862017-12-25T22:37:57 <sipa> but still reclaim disk space and bandwidth
3872017-12-25T22:38:10 <sipa> in a completely optional and compatible way
3882017-12-25T22:39:31 <goatpig> in taht spirit, could there be an alley to use block height + tx# instead of hash for old, buried outputs in the future?
3892017-12-25T22:39:39 <sipa> monero uses a pretty extreme version of what you're suggesting iirc; they refer to previous outputs just using the position in the chain when they were created
3902017-12-25T22:40:22 <sipa> goatpig: requires a nasty index, unfortunately
3912017-12-25T22:40:25 <sipa> but yes
3922017-12-25T22:41:33 <goatpig> sipa: index for what purpose? ordering tx per block height? i mean you konw that height won't change if we're talkign blocks with 100k+ confs
3932017-12-25T22:41:56 <LucasMZanella_> If you use new addresses everytime someone is going to send you something, then moving a large quantity of your funds is going to take a lot of txids and signatures. Schnoor already condenses signs, my idea was to condense txids
3942017-12-25T22:42:00 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] janstary opened pull request #12023: update the OpenBSD build guide (master...openbsd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12023
3952017-12-25T22:43:27 <LucasMZanella_> I thought this could be done with a soft fork but now I don't know anymore. I guess old nodes would always miss transactions
3962017-12-25T22:43:42 <LucasMZanella_> as you said :)
3972017-12-25T22:43:52 <goatpig> LucasMZanella_: you'd have to make the tx body invisible to old nodes
3982017-12-25T22:43:56 <goatpig> that's too extreme
3992017-12-25T22:45:15 *** Cheeseo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4002017-12-25T22:46:17 <LucasMZanella_> I thought as using an entire txid and add the merkle root + other txids inside the script, but old nodes would not accept txids inside the script
4012017-12-25T22:46:38 <LucasMZanella_> I guess it can only be done with a hardfork by changing the transaction format version
4022017-12-25T22:46:56 <goatpig> whichever way you do it, you are introducing computational overhead that is exploitable
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4042017-12-25T22:47:50 <LucasMZanella_> Yes, but we could make the required n digits vary according to the block difficulty
4052017-12-25T22:48:30 <LucasMZanella_> If a person is able to exploit the n digits then he would be able to mine 51% or something like that
4062017-12-25T22:49:42 <goatpig> sure but you to consider that it would then proportionally increase the size of tx with less inputs
4072017-12-25T22:50:01 <goatpig> cause you are always carrying at least 32 bytes worth of merkle + compressed ids
4082017-12-25T22:50:05 <LucasMZanella_> Why it would increase?
4092017-12-25T22:50:15 <goatpig> in your current proposal
4102017-12-25T22:50:23 <goatpig> a single input tx is already larger
4112017-12-25T22:50:39 <goatpig> cause it needs a merkle + 7bytes for 1 compressed id
4122017-12-25T22:50:41 <LucasMZanella_> The merkle root would substitute the txid at all in the new transaction format
4132017-12-25T22:51:05 <LucasMZanella_> If there is only one input, the merkle root would match the txid being referenced
4142017-12-25T22:51:07 <goatpig> you need an id per output + the merkle
4152017-12-25T22:51:26 <goatpig> yes but as soon as you hit over 128bits compressed ids
4162017-12-25T22:51:47 <goatpig> now 2 inputs tx are larger than the legacy outpoints
4172017-12-25T22:53:21 <LucasMZanella_> Can't follow your thinking, I'm confused
4182017-12-25T22:53:35 <goatpig> you need the merkle root per tx
4192017-12-25T22:53:38 <goatpig> + 1 id per input
4202017-12-25T22:53:47 <goatpig> if your ids are 129bits
4212017-12-25T22:54:14 <goatpig> your 2 input tx is now 258bits of outpoints + 256bit of merkle
4222017-12-25T22:54:35 <goatpig> currently a 2 inputs is 256x2 bits of outpoints
4232017-12-25T22:54:49 <goatpig> not including the outpoint id in there cause it's constant accross models
4242017-12-25T22:54:56 <LucasMZanella_> Then for that case the person could use the old transaction format
4252017-12-25T22:55:34 <goatpig> now you have discussion of whether that's desirable at all
4262017-12-25T22:55:40 <goatpig> having 2 models that overlap
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4282017-12-25T22:56:02 <LucasMZanella_> Wouldn't the model be inneficient just for 2 inputs?
4292017-12-25T22:56:17 <goatpig> it would be inneficient generally for low input tx
4302017-12-25T22:56:23 <goatpig> but there's a debate to be had
4312017-12-25T22:56:38 <LucasMZanella_> I don't think there's a problem in using 2 different transaction formats
4322017-12-25T22:56:45 <goatpig> of how desirable such a massive change (hf and all) is when you compare the complexity to implement and operate vs the benefit
4332017-12-25T22:57:08 <goatpig> i have not thought about whether that is a problem or not
4342017-12-25T22:57:18 <goatpig> but i'd rather err on the side of caution and not introduce complexity
4352017-12-25T22:57:20 <LucasMZanella_> Yes, but if we're going to ever hard fork for some other reason, this could be included
4362017-12-25T22:58:08 <LucasMZanella_> I agree with you, but the benefits are huge. Coinjoin, being able to still use one address per transaction, and less fees (the greatest problem)
4372017-12-25T22:58:20 <goatpig> if it can demonstrated that it is safe
4382017-12-25T22:58:31 <goatpig> and fees arent a problem that needs to be addressed at consensus level
4392017-12-25T22:58:38 <goatpig> if they are a problem at all (i dont believe they are)
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