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192018-06-21T01:38:05 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake reopened pull request #13503: Document FreeBSD quirk. Fix FreeBSD build: Cast to int to allow std::min to work under FreeBSD. (master...document-freebsd-quirk) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13503
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212018-06-21T01:45:18 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13512: [qa] mininode: Expose connection state through is_connected (master...Mf1806-qaMininodeState) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13512
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352018-06-21T02:34:51 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #13513: [wip] depends: native_protobuf 3.6.0 (master...depends-protobuf-36) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13513
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392018-06-21T02:51:00 <fanquake> sipa: Feeling a bit nostalgic today? 100'000 was quite a while ago
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482018-06-21T03:24:25 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #13514: depends: set LANG=C in Makefile (master...depends-ios-support) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13514
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582018-06-21T04:03:33 <skeees> pierre_rochard: looks like bitcoinacks might not update when labels get removed from a pr
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602018-06-21T04:11:03 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ken2812221 opened pull request #13515: travis: Enable Qt build for Windows and 32-bit Linux (master...travis_qt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13515
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1262018-06-21T08:04:06 <wumpus> I won't be able to attend tonight's meeting, can someone else chair this time please?
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1432018-06-21T09:08:02 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: I'm also not sure if I make it on time... so happy if sipa, MarcoFalke or someone else takes the chair
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1652018-06-21T10:54:11 <Guest37145> bitcoin to rise $8230 2.35am EST tomorrow
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1682018-06-21T11:02:05 <Guest37145> dgdsgd
1692018-06-21T11:02:05 <Guest37145> sgd
1702018-06-21T11:02:06 <Guest37145> sg
1712018-06-21T11:02:06 <Guest37145> dsg
1722018-06-21T11:02:07 <Guest37145> d
1732018-06-21T11:02:07 <Guest37145> g
1742018-06-21T11:02:08 <Guest37145> dsg
1752018-06-21T11:02:08 <Guest37145> dg
1762018-06-21T11:02:09 <Guest37145> dsg
1772018-06-21T11:02:09 <Guest37145> d
1782018-06-21T11:02:10 <Guest37145> g
1792018-06-21T11:02:10 <Guest37145> dg
1802018-06-21T11:02:11 <Guest37145> d
1812018-06-21T11:02:11 <Guest37145> gd
1822018-06-21T11:02:12 <Guest37145> g
1832018-06-21T11:02:12 <Guest37145> dsg
1842018-06-21T11:02:13 <Guest37145> gds
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2042018-06-21T12:45:55 <pierre_rochard> skeees: ouch, I'll fix asap
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2162018-06-21T13:27:13 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13517: qa: Remove need to handle the network thread in tests (master...Mf1806-qaAsyncIo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13517
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2412018-06-21T14:25:05 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 9 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6579d80572d2...000abbb6b074
2422018-06-21T14:25:06 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 537efe1 João Barbosa: rpc: Extract GetWalletNameFromJSONRPCRequest from GetWalletForJSONRPCRequest
2432018-06-21T14:25:06 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6608c36 João Barbosa: rpc: Add unloadwallet RPC
2442018-06-21T14:25:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4940a20 João Barbosa: test: Add functional tests for unloadwallet RPC
2452018-06-21T14:25:49 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #13111: Add unloadwallet RPC (master...2018-04-unload-wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13111
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3482018-06-21T19:00:01 <sipa> #startmeeting
3492018-06-21T19:00:01 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 19:00:01 2018 UTC. The chair is sipa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3502018-06-21T19:00:01 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
3512018-06-21T19:00:08 <achow101> hi
3522018-06-21T19:00:13 <promag> hi
3532018-06-21T19:00:39 <meshcollider> Hi
3542018-06-21T19:00:45 <sipa> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
3552018-06-21T19:00:52 <kanzure> hi.
3562018-06-21T19:00:57 <sipa> topics?
3572018-06-21T19:01:00 <kanzure> alert key
3582018-06-21T19:01:05 <kanzure> not priority tho
3592018-06-21T19:01:35 *** Randolf has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3602018-06-21T19:01:42 <instagibbs> hi
3612018-06-21T19:02:24 <sipa> okay, let's start with high-priority reviews
3622018-06-21T19:02:33 <sipa> #topic review blocks
3632018-06-21T19:02:34 <kanzure> also, bitcoin-dev mailing list hosting provider is migrating away from the email protocol, so the underlying host is going to probably switch soon (more details forthcoming)
3642018-06-21T19:03:16 <jnewbery> hi
3652018-06-21T19:03:26 <sipa> we have 3 open review blockers: #13062 #12196 #13425
3662018-06-21T19:03:29 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13062 | Make script interpreter independent from storage type CScript by sipa · Pull Request #13062 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3672018-06-21T19:03:33 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12196 | Add scantxoutset RPC method by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #12196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3682018-06-21T19:03:37 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13425 | Moving final scriptSig construction from CombineSignatures to ProduceSignature (PSBT signer logic) by achow101 · Pull Request #13425 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3692018-06-21T19:03:44 <achow101> the merged ones should be removed from the list
3702018-06-21T19:04:00 <sipa> good point, will od
3712018-06-21T19:04:48 <sipa> done
3722018-06-21T19:04:55 <sipa> any proposals for others to add?
3732018-06-21T19:05:14 <promag> I'll update #13100 in the next couple of days, but would be nice to have it on high priority
3742018-06-21T19:05:16 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13100 | gui: Add menu entry to open wallet by promag · Pull Request #13100 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3752018-06-21T19:05:37 <promag> it's the missing piece in the dyn multi wallet story
3762018-06-21T19:05:49 <sipa> promag: ping me when ready, i'll add it then
3772018-06-21T19:06:01 <promag> will do ty
3782018-06-21T19:06:13 <sipa> #topic alert key
3792018-06-21T19:06:15 <sipa> kanzure: ^
3802018-06-21T19:06:39 <kanzure> alert key system deprecated, topic has absolutely no impact on bitcoind itself AFAIK
3812018-06-21T19:06:50 <achow101> besides vulnerable versions
3822018-06-21T19:06:50 <kanzure> i recognize the request to perhaps wait for v0.13 end-of-life, would like to hear more comments about that
3832018-06-21T19:06:55 <sipa> absent any other topic proposals, i'm sure we can talk about it
3842018-06-21T19:07:01 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC
3852018-06-21T19:07:04 <kanzure> i believe those vulnerabilities might not be public but whatever, yes those
3862018-06-21T19:07:36 <achow101> 0.13 is the first version to have the alert system gone. the final alert stuff was added in 0.14.
3872018-06-21T19:07:55 <kanzure> for context: i'm thinking of releasing the private key, would be nice to get that out there and remove that liability
3882018-06-21T19:07:56 <achow101> so waiting for 0.14 to be the oldest version in any form of support is good
3892018-06-21T19:08:01 <gmaxwell> Though it was default off since what.. 0.10.something ?
3902018-06-21T19:08:06 <luke-jr> if 0.13 doesn't have alert system at all, why wait for it to be EOL?
3912018-06-21T19:08:07 <achow101> 0.12
3922018-06-21T19:08:26 <meshcollider> Yeah doesn't seem much point waiting for 13 EOL
3932018-06-21T19:08:38 <meshcollider> 0.12 is already gone
3942018-06-21T19:08:59 <gmaxwell> There are two levels, off by default, and gone completely. 0.12 has it off by default and 0.13 gone completely?
3952018-06-21T19:09:04 <achow101> yes
3962018-06-21T19:09:18 <kanzure> i'm particularly interested in hearing from others who have good reason not to reveal the key.. in the year+ since this was announced i don't think much has been raised.
3972018-06-21T19:09:21 <gmaxwell> and 0.12 is not supported at all, so all supported versions have it gone completely.
3982018-06-21T19:09:37 <kanzure> i sent out an email to the mailing list a few days ago and i have heard back from exactly one person regarding a request for a final alert message to some other altcoin
3992018-06-21T19:09:50 <kanzure> so i think this stuff is good and dead at this point
4002018-06-21T19:09:54 <achow101> yes
4012018-06-21T19:10:07 <achow101> also, if someone needs a final alert, they can pull it from the current source code
4022018-06-21T19:10:07 <gmaxwell> So that sounds pretty good for a release now, unless pre-0.12 nodes are still popular, and I don't believe they are.
4032018-06-21T19:10:24 <achow101> I would assume that someone who has changed the alert format would also change the alert key
4042018-06-21T19:10:30 <kanzure> anyway, if anyone would like to send me name suggestions for someone to go talk to in private, i'm open to that, although i don't expect to hear from anyone
4052018-06-21T19:10:56 <gmaxwell> unfortunately, final alerts don't have the protective properties we believed they had.
4062018-06-21T19:11:03 <luke-jr> there's ~3% of the network on 0.12
4072018-06-21T19:11:12 <achow101> luke-jr: what about earlier?
4082018-06-21T19:11:12 <kanzure> was non-protection disclosed somewhere?
4092018-06-21T19:11:27 <sipa> bitnodes says around 300 ish 0.12 and below nodes, out of 9945
4102018-06-21T19:11:40 <luke-jr> achow101: 0.61% "other" versions, which includes everything before 0.12
4112018-06-21T19:11:52 <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
4122018-06-21T19:11:56 <achow101> ok.. and they all probably have the final alert anyways
4132018-06-21T19:12:00 <luke-jr> sipa: bitnodes only shows listening
4142018-06-21T19:12:09 <sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware; just offering an extra data point
4152018-06-21T19:12:10 <luke-jr> although that's the same 3%
4162018-06-21T19:12:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what was missing re protective properties?
4172018-06-21T19:13:02 <kanzure> also how do folks feel about the unmentioned (spamming) vulnerabilities related to this?
4182018-06-21T19:14:01 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: back when we first started talking about publishing it I was under the mistaken belief that a final alert basically disabled the alert code ... e.g. no more alert message processing, only relaying of the final alert.
4192018-06-21T19:14:24 <gmaxwell> so that a final alert would effectively also limit the usefulness of any alert dos attacks
4202018-06-21T19:14:30 <gmaxwell> But that isn't the case.
4212018-06-21T19:14:34 <achow101> kanzure: I think all of the vulns should be disclosed at the same time as the key
4222018-06-21T19:14:47 <kanzure> this sounds like the same one
4232018-06-21T19:14:49 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that was also my impression
4242018-06-21T19:15:01 <gmaxwell> I doubt we know all the vulnerabilities. I know of at least two but I stopped looking.
4252018-06-21T19:15:03 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4262018-06-21T19:15:12 <achow101> gmaxwell: I believe I know of three
4272018-06-21T19:15:26 <gmaxwell> Also depends on how you count. :)
4282018-06-21T19:15:29 <achow101> that too
4292018-06-21T19:15:46 <sipa> i tend to count using the ring of integers
4302018-06-21T19:16:22 <gmaxwell> in any case, the alert code didn't stand up to careful review and is somewhat exposed to malicious alerts.
4312018-06-21T19:16:35 <gmaxwell> But then again any code still with it is also exposed in other ways.
4322018-06-21T19:16:49 <BlueMatt> there's also limited utility to releasing the alert key
4332018-06-21T19:16:55 <kanzure> sounds like some forkcoin projects might have to deal with this if they haven't already, not just rely on the fantasy of a final alert that shuts down the alert system
4342018-06-21T19:16:58 <BlueMatt> aside from "one less thing to worry about"
4352018-06-21T19:17:33 <gmaxwell> kanzure: well if anything still had it, it would have been easy enough to fix.
4362018-06-21T19:17:49 <gmaxwell> (by basically adding an "if I have had a final alert, drop all new alert messages" line.
4372018-06-21T19:17:50 <jnewbery> I think 'one less thing to worry about' is good enough reason (also 'one less thing to discuss for the rest of our lives')
4382018-06-21T19:17:50 <gmaxwell> )
4392018-06-21T19:18:01 <kanzure> i was surprised by the one person that did message- didn't think he would have had something with the alert system :-)
4402018-06-21T19:18:08 <kanzure> and if he could make that kind of mistake, i'd imagine many others are making worse mistakes
4412018-06-21T19:18:22 <gmaxwell> I was more concerned about it a year ago when in a short periord we had multiple people crop up and propose using that stupid key as some centeralized controlled whatever.
4422018-06-21T19:18:36 <meshcollider> And it has been a couple of years since the deprecation was announced, it's not like fair warning wasn't given in any case
4432018-06-21T19:18:39 <achow101> kanzure: if the altcoins have better control of their alert key, publishing the bitcoin one and the related vulns shouldn't be a problem
4442018-06-21T19:18:45 <kanzure> #action collect vulnerability knowledge from achow101
4452018-06-21T19:19:03 <kanzure> achow101: ah interesting point. i was only thinking about the projects that copied the public key actually.
4462018-06-21T19:19:23 <gmaxwell> I had thought there were ~none, but it turns out prior searches were somewhat ineffective.
4472018-06-21T19:19:25 <achow101> kanzure: AFAICT, there aren't any projects using the bitcoin one
4482018-06-21T19:19:32 <gmaxwell> The litecoin alertkey is copied all over heck and back.
4492018-06-21T19:19:38 <achow101> Google and github search for the key itself has turned up nothing
4502018-06-21T19:19:40 <gmaxwell> achow101: there was at least one we missed.
4512018-06-21T19:19:52 <kanzure> achow101: there is at least one actually, and someone contacted me about it i think :-)
4522018-06-21T19:20:11 <achow101> it could be that they removed the alert system but still have legacy nodes?
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4542018-06-21T19:20:40 <kanzure> unfortunately this person was also misinformed about the effects of the final alert message... in fact, i should go fix that misunderstanding.
4552018-06-21T19:20:46 <gmaxwell> In any case, I think there has been plenty of warning from the prior discussion.
4562018-06-21T19:20:57 *** CubicEarths has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4572018-06-21T19:21:07 <gmaxwell> kanzure: also I think our prior discussion made it pretty clear that the final alert turned out to not be so final.
4582018-06-21T19:21:21 <BlueMatt> at some point if you're so incompetent that you leave the alert key around for a while you've probably broken things in 10 other ways, honestly
4592018-06-21T19:21:26 <gmaxwell> (or rather there were DOS vulnerabilties that persisted in spite of it)
4602018-06-21T19:21:41 <kanzure> BlueMatt: yeah but i also somewhat have a duty to not inadvertedly break other people's broken systems just because they are stupid broken systems
4612018-06-21T19:21:46 <BlueMatt> I dont think we need to worry about other random crap
4622018-06-21T19:21:53 <meshcollider> Agreed, I think just a full post with all info, vulns and key would be best now to resolve this
4632018-06-21T19:21:57 <gmaxwell> the alert system was kinda cool, except for the bugs... and unclear security model, lack of multisig, etc. :P
4642018-06-21T19:22:04 <BlueMatt> more like worry about our own crap and make sure to sufficiently disclose, which clearly happened
4652018-06-21T19:22:20 <luke-jr> DoS is not a big deal IMO
4662018-06-21T19:22:25 <kanzure> sure. okay. let's move on.
4672018-06-21T19:22:31 <luke-jr> maybe the denial of service will prompt the user to upgrade ;)
4682018-06-21T19:22:34 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4692018-06-21T19:22:36 <kanzure> i do have one other topic about bitcoin-dev mailing list
4702018-06-21T19:22:37 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes, assuming thats the worst of it.
4712018-06-21T19:22:59 <sipa> ok, let's switch topics
4722018-06-21T19:23:10 <gmaxwell> (I don't have any reason to assume it's worse than dos other than the fact that there were a bunch of DOS vulns that were unknown until I checked before publishing the key)
4732018-06-21T19:23:13 <sipa> #topic bitcoin-dev mailinglist
4742018-06-21T19:23:23 <kanzure> linuxfoundation is migrating away from the email protocol and will no longer be hosting the bitcoin-dev mailing list
4752018-06-21T19:23:40 <kanzure> there is a migration plan but it's under investigating still
4762018-06-21T19:23:42 <BlueMatt> what are the other 200 mailing lists on lists.linuxfoundation.org doing?
4772018-06-21T19:23:42 <kanzure> details are still forthcoming sorry i don't have anything specific at this time
4782018-06-21T19:23:52 <kanzure> will post to mailing list when i have more details about actual plan
4792018-06-21T19:24:01 <BlueMatt> errr, oh, actually there arent many
4802018-06-21T19:24:03 <kanzure> i believe the current plan is "give lists.linuxfoundation.org to osuosl"
4812018-06-21T19:24:22 <achow101> what does "migrating away from the email protocol" mean? are they just not doing mailing lists anymore?
4822018-06-21T19:24:27 <luke-jr> achow101: right
4832018-06-21T19:24:32 <kanzure> achow101: linuxfoundation no longer believes in email apparently
4842018-06-21T19:24:42 <kanzure> i don't know, man.
4852018-06-21T19:24:45 <meshcollider> lol
4862018-06-21T19:24:48 <gmaxwell> Is that like not believing in santa clause?
4872018-06-21T19:24:59 <kanzure> it's similar but not in the abstract
4882018-06-21T19:25:03 <gmaxwell> claus*
4892018-06-21T19:25:22 <sipa> How can you believe in the universe, if you don't even know if email is real?
4902018-06-21T19:25:36 <kanzure> i'll post more details once i have some, i'd prefer to get an email out to the mailing list before the migration happens since this is weird and unusual
4912018-06-21T19:25:41 <luke-jr> I guess if you disbelieve in email, it ceases to be real for you?
4922018-06-21T19:25:54 <gmaxwell> in any case, I can't say that I was completely happy with LF regardless.
4932018-06-21T19:26:05 <kanzure> my primary concern is about linkrot
4942018-06-21T19:26:16 <kanzure> they seem open to including some rewrite rules on their http server to fix some of the linkrot problem
4952018-06-21T19:26:23 <sipa> ... for now
4962018-06-21T19:26:39 <luke-jr> kanzure: if they're letting OSUOSL use the domain, wouldn't OSUOSL just be able to maintain the links?
4972018-06-21T19:26:54 <kanzure> and also, if the mailing list was to move away from lists.linuxfoundation.org as the domain, and MX records, then potential email delivery problems for the current subscribers
4982018-06-21T19:27:19 <kanzure> luke-jr: sipa notes that the relationship there might change over time
4992018-06-21T19:27:19 <sipa> are there any other topics?
5002018-06-21T19:27:27 <achow101> I'm already experiencing mail delivery problems, so....
5012018-06-21T19:27:40 <luke-jr> kanzure: nothing we can do can prevent that AFAIK
5022018-06-21T19:27:40 <sipa> (we can let this discussion continue if nothing else, but perhaps there are more development related topics)
5032018-06-21T19:27:45 <kanzure> oh yeah, achow101 has reported mail delivery and receipt problems for lists.linuxfoundation.org that i haven't been able to investigate
5042018-06-21T19:30:04 <aj> was there configuration / bitcon-rw.conf / ...? stuff to discuss? i think some got deferred from previous meetings
5052018-06-21T19:30:11 <achow101> topic suggestion: coin selection
5062018-06-21T19:30:21 <achow101> (again)
5072018-06-21T19:30:54 <sipa> aj: i'm not up to date with that discussion
5082018-06-21T19:31:00 <sipa> #topic coin selection
5092018-06-21T19:31:22 <achow101> I did a bunch of simulations of the srd fallback stuff
5102018-06-21T19:31:22 <achow101> https://gist.github.com/achow101/242470486265d3f21adab08f65b9102c
5112018-06-21T19:31:37 <luke-jr> aj: yes, last time it was deferred cuz someone wasn't here
5122018-06-21T19:31:58 <achow101> there are two problems that I see with this strategy: change can be incredibly small and the mean number of utxos in the wallet is quite highg
5132018-06-21T19:32:42 *** Murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5142018-06-21T19:33:04 <achow101> the question is whether we can accept these tradeoffs or whether we need to find a better algorithm
5152018-06-21T19:33:27 *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5162018-06-21T19:33:50 <sipa> it sounds concerning to me
5172018-06-21T19:34:03 <achow101> I agree, especially the small change
5182018-06-21T19:34:21 <achow101> we may have to keep MIN_CHANGE, but I don't really like having a fixed minimum change
5192018-06-21T19:34:39 <gmaxwell> is this code discarding sub fee change?
5202018-06-21T19:34:49 <sipa> yes
5212018-06-21T19:35:05 <sipa> you mean turning dust change into fee? yes
5222018-06-21T19:36:02 <gmaxwell> OKAY
5232018-06-21T19:36:28 <gmaxwell> So let me check my understanding of our understanding.
5242018-06-21T19:36:56 <gmaxwell> SRD is producing poor solutions in cases where the wallet has lots of small inputs? And also tends to produce small change itself?
5252018-06-21T19:37:10 <sipa> tends to produce
5262018-06-21T19:37:53 <achow101> however it does help BnB find more exact matches
5272018-06-21T19:38:06 <gmaxwell> Yes, but probably other strategies could do that.
5282018-06-21T19:38:12 <sipa> but clearly not enough to compensate (as the total number of UTXOs grows)
5292018-06-21T19:38:21 <gmaxwell> e.g. current algo but with a min_change that is randomized more.
5302018-06-21T19:38:21 <luke-jr> aj: (do you have time to discuss rwconf stuff after the meeting if we run out of time during?)
5312018-06-21T19:38:24 <jtimon> sorry I'm late, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13311 is kind of blocking to me for the block signed testnets thing (assuming there's still interest in that) </offtopic>
5322018-06-21T19:39:03 <gmaxwell> IIRC there is nothing fundimental about SRD that makes it good for making BNB work better, but rather it was the first alternative murch tried there.
5332018-06-21T19:39:26 <aj> luke-jr: (yes, it's the start of my day here)
5342018-06-21T19:39:34 <sipa> well and in murch's simulations, SRD performed reasoably well, and was extremely simple
5352018-06-21T19:39:44 <sipa> though i guess we may be seeing different results now
5362018-06-21T19:39:53 <gmaxwell> So for example, current solver plus add a couple extra inputs at random probably also makes BNB work better than current alone.
5372018-06-21T19:40:45 <sipa> i'm wondering if instead of SRD, we shouldn't use a BNB algorithm with a very large target range, larger than minimal change
5382018-06-21T19:41:11 <Murch> And then allow it to create change outputs?
5392018-06-21T19:41:16 <sipa> Murch: indeed
5402018-06-21T19:41:33 <sipa> Murch: basically run BNB in a mode where it assumes change will be created anyway
5412018-06-21T19:41:40 <sipa> and then minimize waste for that
5422018-06-21T19:41:56 <sipa> have you considered such a strategy?
5432018-06-21T19:42:23 <gmaxwell> stratigies that minimize change values are bad for building a collection of coins that help BNB.
5442018-06-21T19:42:26 <Murch> I have thought a bit about it, but figured that it is computationally intensive for no good reason
5452018-06-21T19:42:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: minimizing change != minimizing waste
5462018-06-21T19:42:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: what is 'waste'?
5472018-06-21T19:43:12 <jonasschnelli> hi
5482018-06-21T19:43:14 <Murch> Also, then you're just minimizing the input set since everything produces change and thus all with the same count of inputs have the same waste value
5492018-06-21T19:43:23 <Murch> at least at higher fees
5502018-06-21T19:43:29 <achow101> gmaxwell: line 36 of src/wallet/coinselection.cpp
5512018-06-21T19:43:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: in this case, it means minimziing fees
5522018-06-21T19:43:50 <Murch> Maybe one could just do smallest first selection at the lowest fee range to auto-consolidate?
5532018-06-21T19:43:58 <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet/coinselection.cpp#L36L40
5542018-06-21T19:44:19 <gmaxwell> Murch: smallest first is pathalogical for wallets with tons of tiny inputs, unfortunately.
5552018-06-21T19:44:19 <sipa> we probably shouldn't do algorithm design in this meeting, but ideas for things to try may be useful
5562018-06-21T19:44:53 <Murch> Alright, maybe oldest first on the ones that are smaller than the target. ;)
5572018-06-21T19:44:56 <gmaxwell> we can't have undefended pathological behavior, since we can't assume the usage will be supervised.
5582018-06-21T19:45:08 <Murch> but it would have some sort of limit on transaction size
5592018-06-21T19:45:40 <luke-jr> might be interesting to have coin selection pay attention to feerate estimates. use more inputs when feerates are low, for example. just a thought
5602018-06-21T19:45:42 <gmaxwell> We could still have that mode, it would just have to be guarded by something that cuts off the pathalogical behavior.
5612018-06-21T19:45:55 <Murch> gmaxwell: If smallest first is only used at < 4 sats/byte, why not auto-consolidate up to e.g. 250 unspents?
5622018-06-21T19:46:00 <achow101> luke-jr: preferably the algorithm would be self adjusting to the feerates
5632018-06-21T19:46:01 <sipa> luke-jr: it does
5642018-06-21T19:46:09 <sipa> BNB at least does
5652018-06-21T19:46:20 <Murch> ofc it would mean that a cpfp would be extremely expensive should it become necessary
5662018-06-21T19:46:42 <Murch> luke-jr: the new fee estimation is already fee sensitive
5672018-06-21T19:46:49 <luke-jr> i c
5682018-06-21T19:46:52 <sipa> Murch: you mean coin selections
5692018-06-21T19:46:59 <sipa> i would hope that fee estimation is fee sensitive :p
5702018-06-21T19:47:00 <Murch> äh, I do
5712018-06-21T19:47:42 <jonasschnelli> I have two topic proposal... but I guess I'm too late: a) Multiwallet session persistence b) Bech32X
5722018-06-21T19:48:31 <achow101> perhaps this coin selection discussion would be better done in person with whiteboards
5732018-06-21T19:48:34 <sipa> yeah
5742018-06-21T19:48:40 <sipa> #topic multiwallet session persistence
5752018-06-21T19:48:43 <Murch> I'm game
5762018-06-21T19:48:45 <jonasschnelli> Okay...
5772018-06-21T19:48:55 <luke-jr> ok, so I guess rwconf waits until after meeting :x
5782018-06-21T19:49:00 <gmaxwell> achow101: that leaves out people who can't attend.
5792018-06-21T19:49:07 <jonasschnelli> I guess it's not ideal that loaded wallets need to be re-loaded after a Bitcoin-Core restart...
5802018-06-21T19:49:19 <jonasschnelli> especially in pruning mode
5812018-06-21T19:49:20 <sipa> luke-jr, aj: i can make it a topic; it wasn't clear if you wanted it here
5822018-06-21T19:49:26 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: so put them in the conf file?
5832018-06-21T19:49:33 <luke-jr> sipa: almost out of time anyway
5842018-06-21T19:49:35 <sipa> jonasschnelli: that sounds like something to address with rwconf
5852018-06-21T19:49:37 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: that works for static enviromnents...
5862018-06-21T19:49:50 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: not with rwconf.
5872018-06-21T19:49:54 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: maybe not easy for GUI users (yet; rwconf to the rescue? :P)
5882018-06-21T19:50:09 <jonasschnelli> rwconf would be indeed a solution, yes.
5892018-06-21T19:50:24 <sipa> it seems like the exact same problem as the one rwconf is intended to solve
5902018-06-21T19:50:37 <luke-jr> unless you wanted multiple different sessions, maybe?
5912018-06-21T19:50:56 <luke-jr> but I'm not sure there's a use case for that
5922018-06-21T19:51:43 <gmaxwell> seems out of scope to me.
5932018-06-21T19:51:46 <jonasschnelli> Okay guess rw/config solves this... so /topic
5942018-06-21T19:51:59 <sipa> #topic bech32x
5952018-06-21T19:52:17 <jonasschnelli> Bech32X has currently the distance 27 BCH with correction to 7 chars (thanks to sipa)
5962018-06-21T19:52:20 <jonasschnelli> The idea is now..
5972018-06-21T19:52:32 <jonasschnelli> to have three "levels" or correction..
5982018-06-21T19:52:58 <sipa> i'll gladly create code for that
5992018-06-21T19:53:08 <jonasschnelli> I'd like to hear if this a) is "easy" possible (three generators) and b) if the use case makse sense (selective correction robusntess)?
6002018-06-21T19:53:08 <sipa> i don't have strong opinions about usage
6012018-06-21T19:53:21 <gmaxwell> I don't understand
6022018-06-21T19:53:22 <gmaxwell> 12:52:32 < jonasschnelli> to have three "levels" or correction..
6032018-06-21T19:53:29 <jonasschnelli> 7 chars is still not much more then 5% correction for 512bit key material
6042018-06-21T19:53:47 <luke-jr> maybe correction level should be somehow defined as a % of the whole?
6052018-06-21T19:53:53 <gmaxwell> Oh you want multiple codes so for long key data it uses a stronger code?
6062018-06-21T19:53:57 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: a flexible checksum, either 7 chars or 14chars or 28 chars of correction
6072018-06-21T19:54:07 <sipa> gmaxwell: or that the user can choose how much correction information they want
6082018-06-21T19:54:13 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: either the length or the HRP does hint what code to use
6092018-06-21T19:54:14 <sipa> (QR codes have this, for example)
6102018-06-21T19:54:19 <jonasschnelli> Yes.
6112018-06-21T19:54:21 <gmaxwell> It can't be 'flexible' without hurting performance, but we could just have more or less.
6122018-06-21T19:54:27 <gmaxwell> through multiple codes.
6132018-06-21T19:54:43 <sipa> yeah, i'm sure he just means have 3 codes to choose from
6142018-06-21T19:54:49 <jonasschnelli> yes
6152018-06-21T19:54:54 <gmaxwell> But I think it is not good to make it generally user selectable. The user _generally_ has no way to make a useful decision.
6162018-06-21T19:55:13 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Yes. I also thought this...
6172018-06-21T19:55:16 <luke-jr> user in this case being the software I think
6182018-06-21T19:55:19 <gmaxwell> But making the format support multiple codes seems okay to me though it might lower the odds that powerful fancy decoders get written, because it'll be more work.
6192018-06-21T19:55:24 <jonasschnelli> On the other hand, maxing on 5% correction may also be not ideal
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6212018-06-21T19:55:47 <sipa> gmaxwell: we can make sure they use the same field and extension, so that the majority of the recovery code can be shared
6222018-06-21T19:55:58 <gmaxwell> There are certian improved properties we can get if we know a code will only be used for shorter vs longer data.
6232018-06-21T19:56:13 <sipa> gmaxwell: not much as these levels of corrections (too large search space)
6242018-06-21T19:56:37 <gmaxwell> so if the goal really was just to have multiple codes to have a certian percentage of correction that could perhaps be used.
6252018-06-21T19:57:06 <gmaxwell> sipa: well we can still search for codes with improved performance over modest (e.g. 50 char) windows, giving better burst error handling.
6262018-06-21T19:57:57 <sipa> we can even make the generators multiples of each other, so that a valid code according to one is also valid according to the "weaker" versions
6272018-06-21T19:58:08 <gmaxwell> in any case, I assume sipa would come up with the codes.. fewer levels is better than more...
6282018-06-21T19:58:09 <sipa> (or with a different offset, guarantee that this exactly never happens)
6292018-06-21T19:59:00 <gmaxwell> sipa: if you're going to abandon beyond bch performance the difference codes could just be punctures of a single bigger one.
6302018-06-21T19:59:20 <sipa> gmaxwell: right, i believe that's actually saying the same thing
6312018-06-21T19:59:57 <sipa> gmaxwell: also, for distance 15 there is nothing we can grind, not even for short lengths
6322018-06-21T20:00:09 <sipa> #endmeeting
6332018-06-21T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jun 21 20:00:09 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
6342018-06-21T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.html
6352018-06-21T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.txt
6362018-06-21T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.log.html
6372018-06-21T20:00:11 <sipa> #lunch
6382018-06-21T20:00:11 <gmaxwell> It seems odd and a bit sad to have so much design freedom and not use it however.
6392018-06-21T20:00:21 <luke-jr> sipa responds and runs :P
6402018-06-21T20:00:29 *** nmnkgl has quit IRC
6412018-06-21T20:00:33 <gmaxwell> will continue later.
6422018-06-21T20:01:01 <luke-jr> =â¦topic rwconf (ping aj)
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6442018-06-21T20:01:27 <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder if we can at least choose the lower degree part of the code to have better performance.
6452018-06-21T20:01:43 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's a good point
6462018-06-21T20:01:44 <aj> luke-jr: yo
6472018-06-21T20:01:53 <sipa> gmaxwell: we could just extend the bech32 generator for example
6482018-06-21T20:01:59 <luke-jr> aj: did you read the log? http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-07-19.00.log.html#l-102
6492018-06-21T20:03:20 <aj> luke-jr: yeah. the separate maps for cmdline and config were to preserve the flipped ordering behaviour
6502018-06-21T20:03:57 <luke-jr> aj: do you have any objections to reverting it back to a single-value map + multi-value map?
6512018-06-21T20:04:24 <luke-jr> (thereby resolving the ordering stuff at startup, rathre than runtime)
6522018-06-21T20:05:14 <sipa> i think AddArg should get a flag indicating whether the option is single-value or multi-value, so that repeated arguments can be dealt with at parsing time
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6552018-06-21T20:06:17 <luke-jr> sipa: IMO that makes sense, but best as a separate PR
6562018-06-21T20:06:36 <aj> luke-jr: i don't think that quite works with prioritising the network stuff; ie atm it's "cmdline, [regtest], plainconfig"; but if you populate a single map with override first, then see a plain config option, then see regtest.foo=bah, you can't decide whether to drop the old entry or preserve it
6572018-06-21T20:07:52 <luke-jr> hmm
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6592018-06-21T20:08:11 <aj> luke-jr: long term i like (an approach like) meshcollider's arg rework stuff
6602018-06-21T20:09:19 <aj> luke-jr: //github.com/MeshCollider/bitcoin/commits/201712_argument_registration maybe
6612018-06-21T20:10:35 <aj> luke-jr: anyway, i don't object to changing around the map stuff, this was just the simplest way i could see of getting relatively sane behavior
6622018-06-21T20:10:38 <luke-jr> aj: maybe the single map will need a flag indicating where it came from for now
6632018-06-21T20:10:57 <aj> luke-jr: yeah, that's just equivalent to two maps :)
6642018-06-21T20:11:41 <luke-jr> well, now we're getting into 4 sources - "cmdline, rwconf, [regtest], plainconfig"
6652018-06-21T20:12:54 <aj> luke-jr: 3 sources if you count them as cmdline, rwconf, config[foo=/regtest.foo=/test.foo=/main.foo=]
6662018-06-21T20:13:03 <aj> luke-jr: but yeah
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