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42018-09-25T00:13:07 <echeveria> phantomcircuit: tig.
52018-09-25T00:18:15 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think the messages you are sending out complaining about upgrades are making people more ignorant, I'm seeing a lot of posts like https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9impf7/cant_we_just_uasf_away_from_any_nodes_that_arent/e6kt857/
62018-09-25T00:18:48 <gmaxwell> I don't think there is anything wrong with the upgrade progress.
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292018-09-25T01:11:38 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't see how that's at all related
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312018-09-25T01:16:28 <echeveria> for a start you know that your "4-5%" number is flimsy.
322018-09-25T01:16:30 <luke-jr> the upgrade process is fine, when there isn't a publicly-known exploit we're vulnerable to..
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352018-09-25T01:19:59 <gmaxwell> "we're" is an example of you creating confusion there.
362018-09-25T01:20:16 <gmaxwell> it's suggesting that people are being harmed by others having not upgraded yet.
372018-09-25T01:20:21 <luke-jr> echeveria: I just posted that after talking here, and it is a heck of a lot LESS flimsy than any 40-50% figures
382018-09-25T01:20:42 <echeveria> luke-jr: I've always been very explicit in my comments about that number being for listening sockets.
392018-09-25T01:21:13 <gmaxwell> For all you know virtually everyone accepting transactions or mining is already upgraded.
402018-09-25T01:21:36 <gmaxwell> And if so, it doesn't matter when the rest upgrade if ever.
412018-09-25T01:21:52 <luke-jr> echeveria: specifying that doesn't make it any less meaningless with an implication that it matters
422018-09-25T01:22:52 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: uh, the attacker of this vulnerability is miner(s); that they have upgraded for now is useful, but not security
432018-09-25T01:23:21 <luke-jr> and too many non-full nodes DOES potentially harm full nodes
442018-09-25T01:24:45 <echeveria> you care about at least one of your peers being safe. at this point with all probability, a listening socket you are connected to is safe. the number does have significance if you are making the assumption (and you are) that most nodes are non-listening.
452018-09-25T01:25:03 <luke-jr> that ignores the economic side of things
462018-09-25T01:25:31 <luke-jr> if 90% of the economy is working with an invalid chain, it's the full nodes that will be left in the cold with worthless tokens
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482018-09-25T01:27:01 <echeveria> yes, but you can't measure this.
492018-09-25T01:27:26 <echeveria> you're no doubt aware as much as me, most economic activity happens on non-validating systems.
502018-09-25T01:27:51 <sipa> when you upgrade consciously, you make a determination that the new rules are the ones you consider valid; you don't care about what others think is valid
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522018-09-25T01:28:09 <echeveria> luke-jr: if you want to get Coinbase to upgrade, go talk to Blockchain.info or Blockcypher, badgering people to upgrade their systems is admirable, and optimal, but doesn't solve your problems.
532018-09-25T01:28:10 <luke-jr> echeveria: that's speculation, and extremely dangerous if true
542018-09-25T01:28:11 <sipa> or at least, the point where what others think is valid is relevant, but only before you decide to upgrade
552018-09-25T01:29:02 <luke-jr> echeveria: it would basically mean Bitcoin is just another centralised PayPal already
562018-09-25T01:29:15 <sipa> i disagree
572018-09-25T01:29:16 <luke-jr> sipa: you care what others think is valid, if you want to pay them
582018-09-25T01:29:22 <sipa> luke-jr: of course
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602018-09-25T01:29:28 <echeveria> luke-jr: now that's a bold claim. lets take this one to a PM or #bitcoin.
612018-09-25T01:29:35 <sipa> luke-jr: but that feeds into the definition of what full node software to run
622018-09-25T01:31:54 <phantomcircuit> echeveria, yes that
632018-09-25T01:31:54 <phantomcircuit> ty
642018-09-25T01:31:56 <luke-jr> sipa: if you decide to softfork the CVE-2018-17144 fix by upgrading, you want everyone you pay to upgrade too
652018-09-25T01:31:56 <luke-jr> so that you can be sure they will accept your payments
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672018-09-25T01:31:57 <sipa> once you have made that determination, your definition of valid is fixed, and you don't care who upgrades or not
682018-09-25T01:31:57 <sipa> for all you know every economically relevant node has upgraded
692018-09-25T01:31:57 <sipa> this is indeed probably better suited for #bitcoin
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712018-09-25T01:32:34 <luke-jr> sipa: that's possible only if the number of economically relevant nodes is dangerously low
722018-09-25T01:33:01 <sipa> luke-jr: fair; you have an incentive to encourage economically relevant nodes to upgrade- but you can't observe which nodes are upgraded
732018-09-25T01:33:06 <sipa> eh, which are relevant
742018-09-25T01:33:37 <sipa> my assumption is that 90%+ of listening nodes on the network are not economically relevant at all
752018-09-25T01:33:41 <luke-jr> I hope it's much more than 4000
762018-09-25T01:33:56 <luke-jr> sipa: I'm looking at non-listening ones too
772018-09-25T01:34:41 <echeveria> phantomcircuit: the options aren't obvious, `tig log` is sometimes easier for browsing the source tree, `tig grep` is far better than just using grep in my experience because you get context.
782018-09-25T01:34:57 <luke-jr> tig?
792018-09-25T01:38:01 *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
802018-09-25T01:39:08 <echeveria> a git ncurses interface.
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872018-09-25T01:58:59 <jcorgan> +1 for tig, i use it frequently
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1012018-09-25T02:52:54 <ken2812221> cfields: jonasschnelli: code signatures reminder for 0.15.2 and 0.14.3. Hope that the binaries can be released ASAP.
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1532018-09-25T07:07:20 <provoostenator> echeveria: fwif blockchain.info is upgraded
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1552018-09-25T07:20:54 <jonasschnelli> ken2812221: Yes. We'll take care about it today.
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1642018-09-25T08:17:01 <booyah> how to measure disk use for UTXO and for blockchain? tesetnet3 uses 24 GB with prune=3000, is really tesetnet UTXO that big, or some bug
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1662018-09-25T08:35:31 <echeveria> provoostenator: since when do they even run a validating node?
1672018-09-25T08:35:57 <echeveria> provoostenator: they were always just bitcoinj with validation disabled, which is why they kept showing wildly invalid transactions like the "one spending satoshi's coins".
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1722018-09-25T09:20:53 <ken2812221> jonasschnelli: Thanks
1732018-09-25T09:26:43 <jonasschnelli> booyah: 25GB is without pruning....
1742018-09-25T09:26:58 <jonasschnelli> the UTXO set is ~1GB
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2012018-09-25T12:24:55 <ilyachesnokov> join #bitcoin
2022018-09-25T12:26:28 <ilyachesnokov> join #bitcoin
2032018-09-25T12:28:14 <queip> ilyachesnokov: it's /join #bitcoin , bro
2042018-09-25T12:28:29 <ilyachesnokov> huh
2052018-09-25T12:29:07 <ilyachesnokov> has anybody used indexd software from bitcoinjs repo?
2062018-09-25T12:29:28 <ilyachesnokov> it is external index for bitcoin core
2072018-09-25T12:31:07 <queip> ilyachesnokov: that is a good question but for #bitcoin channel, not here, which you can join by /join #bitcoin including the leading slash character, and writting in the new window that opens
2082018-09-25T12:31:58 <ilyachesnokov> fine will ask there
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2202018-09-25T13:46:37 <sdaftuar> have there been reports of spurious test failures on the appveyor runs? eg https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/build/master.1638
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2392018-09-25T15:41:51 <cfields> er, I didn't think we were signing those binaries. I don't believe the Windows ones can be, at least.
2402018-09-25T15:44:53 <achow101> cfields, why?
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2432018-09-25T15:45:43 <cfields> achow101: the certificate expired
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2452018-09-25T15:47:04 <cfields> achow101: we got a new cert for 0.16 iirc, and the build-scripts include the cert so that the wrong one can't be used on accident
2462018-09-25T15:47:51 <achow101> can't you use the new one?
2472018-09-25T15:49:18 <cfields> wumpus: thoughts on ^^? I could hack the scripts and do it manually, I *think* the gitian process would still work in that case. But I'm not sure signatures for unsupported releases is a good idea in principle.
2482018-09-25T15:49:55 <cfields> er, I suppose 0.15 is still supported until 0.17 is out the door
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2502018-09-25T15:51:32 <achow101> 0.14 is still technically not EOL
2512018-09-25T15:52:07 <achow101> so it's still supported for critical security fixes
2522018-09-25T15:54:41 <cfields> ugh, ok. I'll see what's possible.
2532018-09-25T15:55:22 <achow101> cfields: you can do 0.15.2 at least, it looks like the current cert is in that repo
2542018-09-25T15:55:33 <achow101> s/repo/branch
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2562018-09-25T15:58:44 <cfields> hmm, the history there isn't lining up the way I remembered. Maybe 0.15 used the new cert as well?
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2592018-09-25T16:01:36 <achow101> cfields: #9514
2602018-09-25T16:01:38 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9514 | release: Windows signing script by theuni · Pull Request #9514 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2612018-09-25T16:02:42 <achow101> hasn't changed since then
2622018-09-25T16:02:47 * cfields facepalms
2632018-09-25T16:02:55 <cfields> achow101: you're right, it's macOS that expired
2642018-09-25T16:03:40 <cfields> so win signing should be fine. Let's see what trouble that gives us instead.
2652018-09-25T16:08:54 <achow101> cfields: I think macOS signing should be fine. the cert isn't even in the repo and I believe the scripts are outdated
2662018-09-25T16:09:07 <achow101> *outdated or haven't changed in a while
2672018-09-25T16:10:02 <cfields> achow101: yes, looks like you're right.
2682018-09-25T16:10:13 <cfields> ok, building quickly.
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3062018-09-25T19:20:18 <jonasschnelli> Building some PRs in Gitian and getting "No space left on device" errors while building linux (but there is space left on the host).
3072018-09-25T19:20:19 <jonasschnelli> https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/build/801
3082018-09-25T19:20:22 <jonasschnelli> Could this be a container size constraints issue?
3092018-09-25T19:24:03 <achow101> jonasschnelli: what virtualization are you using? that seems like the container image isn't big enough
3102018-09-25T19:24:13 <jonasschnelli> achow101: LXC
3112018-09-25T19:24:27 <jonasschnelli> Now clue how to set the container size
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3152018-09-25T19:28:03 <achow101> jonasschnelli: I think you will need to modify make-base-vm in gitian-builder/bin
3162018-09-25T19:29:13 <achow101> it invokes dd near the end of the lxc setup stuff. I think if you make that larger the container will be larger
3172018-09-25T19:29:40 <jonasschnelli> dd if=/dev/zero of=$OUT-lxc bs=1M count=1 seek=10240
3182018-09-25T19:30:13 <achow101> yeah, that line
3192018-09-25T19:31:03 <jonasschnelli> trying...
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3232018-09-25T20:12:39 <cfields> jonasschnelli: sorry, builds are taking a while here too
3242018-09-25T20:14:11 <jonasschnelli> cfields: no worries...
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3292018-09-25T20:31:09 <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I have a PR for gitian-builder that lets you set disk sizes, but it doesn't support LXC
3302018-09-25T20:31:50 <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: hmm... is there a reason why it doesn't support LXC? Is it not possible or just not done?
3312018-09-25T20:32:17 <luke-jr> I don't use LXC, so I didn't even try to implement it
3322018-09-25T20:32:47 <luke-jr> I would think it's possible, but probably fundamentally different in how to implement
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3562018-09-25T21:38:31 <provoostenator> Rolling back after upgrading a pre-segwit node also blows up memory: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14289#issuecomment-424510417
3572018-09-25T21:39:11 <sipa> provoostenator: and do you know whether the same was true in 0.16?
3582018-09-25T21:40:10 <provoostenator> I kept a copy of the 0.13 database pre downgrade, so will try with 0.16 tomorrow when I'm recovered from the Ams dev meetup :-)
3592018-09-25T21:40:39 <provoostenator> I can test fixes as well.
3602018-09-25T21:42:24 <gmaxwell> it probably don't matter that much if it's also true on 0.16. We need to fix it or disable the rollback and shut down with a message that you need to sync from scratch.
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3622018-09-25T21:45:08 <provoostenator> Given how slow rollback is, I think that even in the first scenario the release notes could suggest syncing from scratch unless the user is really network constrained.
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3642018-09-25T21:46:06 <provoostenator> (though perhaps it's faster with the memory fix)
3652018-09-25T21:46:12 <gmaxwell> rollback is as slow as it is in part because of the same thing that is causing the memory blowup.
3662018-09-25T21:46:56 <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be shocked if a sync from scratch weren't faster regardless... but IIRC without the memory blowup rollback and forward are pretty close in speed.
3672018-09-25T21:50:11 <sipa> depends how deep it is :)
3682018-09-25T21:50:23 <sipa> if your node has been offline since 1 week after segwit activated...
3692018-09-25T21:51:48 <gmaxwell> perhaps we should fix the bloat, and measure the speed ... I'd say we should remove the rollback logic if it's really a loss ignoring assumptions like that, but the rollback logic will be useful for future softforks.
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3722018-09-25T22:03:37 <esotericnonsense> I was thinking about this just now actually. i'm syncing a node on ZFS at the moment
3732018-09-25T22:04:41 <esotericnonsense> was thinking about testing rollback by just restoring old snapshots (yes it's going to balloon my disk space)
3742018-09-25T22:05:49 <gmaxwell> for this case, you need to sync up to current with pre-segwit code.. then switch to post segwit code.
3752018-09-25T22:08:08 <esotericnonsense> re syncing from scratch; this is uninformed, but just a guess; could you reindex instead? when the segwit node hits the first block that has missing segwit data it can sync from there, right
3762018-09-25T22:08:37 <esotericnonsense> (not relevant in the long term, but right now you'd skip redownloading what, 100GB or so?)
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3792018-09-25T22:16:30 <gmaxwell> yes, I'm not sure that it'll delete the useless data though.
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3812018-09-25T22:38:32 <cfields> gitian builders: Detached sigs for v0.14.3 and v0.15.2 are pushed. My apologies for the delay.
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