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  72020-03-12T00:17:27  <fanquake> sipa: can you block lucasborer1
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 752020-03-12T06:32:59  <wumpus> fanquake: done
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 772020-03-12T06:49:41  <fanquake> wumpus: thanks
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 882020-03-12T08:10:08  <vasild> kallewoof: I am going to test https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17994 today and I wonder if there is a better way than just start it to download blocks and try to observe how it behaves. Is there a way to test in a controlled environment where we feed out-of-order blocks to it deterministically?
 892020-03-12T08:11:39  <kallewoof> vasild: nice! you'll get out of order blocks for sure just by running it for a bit, is my experience. One thing you can do is put in some LogPrintfs when it hits the "finalize" case in case you wanna check that.
 902020-03-12T08:13:01  <vasild> ok
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1042020-03-12T09:37:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9cc7eba1b565...4c42a13205a1
1052020-03-12T09:37:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ae42a1 Carl Dong: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
1062020-03-12T09:37:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4c42a13 fanquake: Merge #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
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1092020-03-12T09:38:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag (master...2020-03-fix-ssp-in-guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18320
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1192020-03-12T10:26:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18331: [WIP]  build: Use git archive as source tarball  (master...20200312-git-archive) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18331
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1222020-03-12T10:30:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #17104: build: `make dist` uses `git archive` (master...build/archive-dist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17104
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1512020-03-12T12:31:30  <provoostenator> vasild: or you could write a regest for that, although we'd need more fine grained control of the regtest nodes p2p behavior
1522020-03-12T12:32:13  <provoostenator> Not sure how far you can get with submitblock RPC.
1532020-03-12T12:36:17  <vasild> provoostenator: I found out that https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/validation_block_tests.cpp#L151 is very close to what's needed to reproduce the out-of-order block feeding wrt #17994. I am now replacing its random multi-threaded call of ProcessNewBlock() with a signle-threaded deterministic out-of-order block supply. Lets see what happens...
1542020-03-12T12:36:19  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17994 | validation: flush undo files after last block write by kallewoof · Pull Request #17994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1552020-03-12T12:38:18  <vasild> at least I will be able to observe the issue and its fix manually from the log, not sure if it will be possible to completely automate and add as a test. Is it possible to check if something was or was not printed in the log from a BOOST_AUTO_TEST_CASE()?
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1602020-03-12T13:11:22  <jonatack> vasild: I don't know the unit tests suite well yet, and there may be better examples, but maybe have a look in
1612020-03-12T13:11:39  <jonatack> getarg_tests.cpp
1622020-03-12T13:12:09  <jonatack> notably the logargs test
1632020-03-12T13:13:20  <jonatack> it performs checks on the debug log
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1652020-03-12T13:16:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c42a13205a1...2737197ff39f
1662020-03-12T13:16:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa2cf85 MarcoFalke: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
1672020-03-12T13:16:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2737197 MarcoFalke: Merge #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
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1692020-03-12T13:16:49  <pinheadmz> anyone know why the testnet seeds list is just a few onion URLs? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/seeds/nodes_test.txt
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1712020-03-12T13:16:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit (master...2002-qaFixRaceSegwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18213
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1742020-03-12T13:17:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #17627: Suppress false positive warning about uninitialized entropy buffers (master...2019/11/buffers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17627
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1782020-03-12T13:21:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2737197ff39f...e2d36639ca87
1792020-03-12T13:21:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faf6f15 MarcoFalke: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
1802020-03-12T13:21:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2d3663 MarcoFalke: Merge #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
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1832020-03-12T13:22:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue (master...2002-testFixRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18228
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1862020-03-12T13:26:51  <wumpus> pinheadmz: no, no idea, I do know the list of testnet seed nodes is hardly ever updated, seems the last time was 2015 (and that was mostly a move) so it's likely hugely out of date too
1872020-03-12T13:27:51  <wumpus> it probably doesn't make sense, e.g. wasteful, to hardcode a long list like we do for mainnet, but it would be good if someone checked the testnet list for staleness
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1962020-03-12T14:25:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18322: refactor: Add params to node context (master...2003-nodeParams) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18322
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1982020-03-12T14:38:16  <hebasto> #18331 status is changed from WIP to 'ready to review' ;)
1992020-03-12T14:38:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18331 | build: Use git archive as source tarball by hebasto · Pull Request #18331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2002020-03-12T14:42:52  <wumpus> I like that Drahtbot has an octopus in the rebase messages now <3
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2042020-03-12T15:24:14  <pinheadmz> wumpus: only 1 of those testnet onions seems to be alive: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13550#issuecomment-598248941
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2062020-03-12T15:39:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18333: build: Drop deprecated ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS variable (master...20200311-deprecated-amflags) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18333
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2332020-03-12T17:28:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18334: test: Add basic test for BIP 37 (master...2003-qa37) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18334
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2362020-03-12T17:49:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] LarryRuane opened pull request #18335: bitcoin-cli: print useful error if bitcoind rpc work queue exceeded (master...cli-work-queue-error-msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18335
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2442020-03-12T18:06:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18336: script: Fix gitian-build.py --pull option (master...20200312-gitian-build-pull) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18336
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2462020-03-12T18:06:22  <luke-jr> not sure if I will make the meeting today
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2582020-03-12T18:45:04  <wumpus> I guess the main topic will be the upcoming feature freeze
2592020-03-12T18:45:19  <wumpus> and what things to focus on to get in before that
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2622020-03-12T19:00:11  <wumpus> #startmeeting
2632020-03-12T19:00:11  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 12 19:00:11 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
2642020-03-12T19:00:11  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
2652020-03-12T19:00:19  <MarcoFalke> hi
2662020-03-12T19:00:21  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
2672020-03-12T19:00:22  <sipsorcery>  hi
2682020-03-12T19:00:23  <wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
2692020-03-12T19:00:25  <kanzure> hi
2702020-03-12T19:00:26  <jkczyz> hi
2712020-03-12T19:00:27  <emilengler> hi
2722020-03-12T19:00:33  <fjahr> hi
2732020-03-12T19:00:36  <promag> hi
2742020-03-12T19:00:38  <jonatack> hello
2752020-03-12T19:00:46  <provoostenator> hi (though distracted)
2762020-03-12T19:00:48  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
2772020-03-12T19:00:57  <hebasto> hi
2782020-03-12T19:01:01  <wumpus> one proposed topic in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt : PPA URI (luke-jr) if he's here
2792020-03-12T19:01:07  <achow101> hi
2802020-03-12T19:01:28  <amiti> hi
2812020-03-12T19:01:33  <kanzure> other topic: status of coredev.tech survey about meeting options, or any results, or when to expect as much
2822020-03-12T19:01:42  <kanzure> (i don't have that information)
2832020-03-12T19:01:50  <luke-jr> here for now
2842020-03-12T19:01:53  <wumpus> good thing that it was decided to cancel coredev last week, because people from Europe aren't even allowed to travel to the US anymore
2852020-03-12T19:02:29  <wumpus> #topic Features for 0.20
2862020-03-12T19:02:49  <sipa>   hi
2872020-03-12T19:02:50  <wumpus> as you might know, the feature freeze for 0.20 is in three days (the 15th)
2882020-03-12T19:03:34  <wumpus> is there anything in progress, that only needs a bit of review to go, could still be ready before then?
2892020-03-12T19:03:56  <hebasto> #16224 ?
2902020-03-12T19:03:58  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16224 | gui: Bilingual GUI error messages by hebasto · Pull Request #16224 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2912020-03-12T19:04:30  <wumpus> hebasto: yes, good one
2922020-03-12T19:04:39  <achow101> #17509?
2932020-03-12T19:04:41  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17509 | gui: save and load PSBT by Sjors · Pull Request #17509 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2942020-03-12T19:05:01  <achow101> I'd like #18204 too
2952020-03-12T19:05:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18204 | descriptors: improve descriptor cache and cache xpubs by achow101 · Pull Request #18204 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2962020-03-12T19:05:12  <emilengler> hebasto: Will review this PR tomorrow
2972020-03-12T19:05:16  <provoostenator> ^ I'll try to conserve ACKs but can quickly address feedback if needed on
2982020-03-12T19:05:29  <wumpus> that would be really nice to have
2992020-03-12T19:07:23  <wumpus> achow101: is 18204 a feature or performance improvement?
3002020-03-12T19:07:52  <wumpus> (I mean if the latter it could potentially go in after the feature freeze)
3012020-03-12T19:08:07  <achow101> it can go in after the feature freeze I guess
3022020-03-12T19:08:28  <achow101> it's really a performance improvement
3032020-03-12T19:08:41  <sipa> i think it's a weak performance improvement, but also a necessity for descriptor wallets
3042020-03-12T19:08:51  <wumpus> but it has quite some ACKs, I see, so might not need to wait that long anyhow
3052020-03-12T19:09:06  <achow101> I just don't want it to get stuck for another few months with 2 acks
3062020-03-12T19:09:47  <wumpus> it's always ok to remind me if something is almost ready for merge btw no need to wait until the meeting
3072020-03-12T19:10:53  <wumpus> #topic PPA URI (luke-jr)
3082020-03-12T19:11:32  <sipa> pinging BlueMatt
3092020-03-12T19:11:47  <sipa> ah, he's going through airport security
3102020-03-12T19:11:54  <cncr04s> remove that 3 second wait on the send button
3112020-03-12T19:12:05  <sipa> ?
3122020-03-12T19:12:05  <cncr04s> or at least add an option
3132020-03-12T19:12:06  <wumpus> I'll let BlueMatt and luke-jr fight this out
3142020-03-12T19:12:16  <MarcoFalke> I think the only question was whether to use deterministic builds or not
3152020-03-12T19:12:28  <MarcoFalke> I can't see an argument for non-deterministic builds
3162020-03-12T19:12:36  <sipa> and whether we want to support PPAs at all
3172020-03-12T19:12:43  <wumpus> I think that's the main question
3182020-03-12T19:12:55  <achow101> there's various documentation written by other people that refer to the ppa
3192020-03-12T19:13:24  <sipa> if we can make the PPA deterministic (or even identical to the release builds), that would be ideal
3202020-03-12T19:13:53  <wumpus> yes, definitely
3212020-03-12T19:13:54  <luke-jr> I am maintaining the PPA
3222020-03-12T19:14:03  <sipa> <BlueMatt> Note that ppa has two series’ of issues that releases did not: GUI issues that persisted for two releases and weren’t ever solved and the 32-bit test failures.
3232020-03-12T19:14:13  <luke-jr> I don't really know why anyone else needs to be involved in this fact..
3242020-03-12T19:14:25  <sipa> <BlueMatt> The second one especially scares me
3252020-03-12T19:14:36  <wumpus> what do you need from us then?
3262020-03-12T19:14:37  <luke-jr> the only question in my mind is whether it should remain at 'bitcoin' as some have suggested, or move to my own launchpad
3272020-03-12T19:14:37  <MarcoFalke> That was the gcc compiler bug
3282020-03-12T19:14:54  <sipa> <BlueMatt> But if people want it, it should be maintained as a part of the packaging repo
3292020-03-12T19:15:10  <achow101> I think it should remain at 'bitcoin' as that's where a bunch of docs that mention the ppa point to
3302020-03-12T19:15:15  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3312020-03-12T19:15:29  <luke-jr> BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic
3322020-03-12T19:15:50  *** luke-jr has quit IRC
3332020-03-12T19:16:01  <MarcoFalke> I think we shouldn't offer software that is impossible to audit
3342020-03-12T19:16:37  <MarcoFalke> determinisitic builds in the ppa are fine, though
3352020-03-12T19:16:37  <wumpus> well the "bitcoin" PPA is his so as for maintining that that's his decision, if you maintain youre own somewhere else that's fine, but we likely won't link to it
3362020-03-12T19:16:44  *** luke-jr has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3372020-03-12T19:16:57  <wumpus> (we never even linked from the repo to his ppa either afaik)
3382020-03-12T19:17:22  <sipa> bitcoincore
3392020-03-12T19:17:32  <achow101> wumpus: the ppa has been linked to before from both our repo and bitcoincore.org. those were removed, but it has been "official"
3402020-03-12T19:17:47  <sipa> bitcoincore.org or bitcoin.org linked to it as a way of installing
3412020-03-12T19:18:01  <MarcoFalke> Yes, I remember removing that link
3422020-03-12T19:18:05  <wumpus> achow101: I think the ppa was only linked as a means to install bdb4
3432020-03-12T19:18:16  <wumpus> oh okay
3442020-03-12T19:19:33  <MarcoFalke> I think there is no one objecting a ppa that wraps our normal release builds
3452020-03-12T19:19:45  <wumpus> like the snap does, right?
3462020-03-12T19:20:07  <MarcoFalke> jup
3472020-03-12T19:20:29  <MarcoFalke> But some people don't like the snap, because it doesn't install it in the "classic" location etc
3482020-03-12T19:20:57  <luke-jr> … how much of that made it :/
3492020-03-12T19:21:09  <luke-jr> Canonical is ultimately responsible for the PPA builds
3502020-03-12T19:21:09  <sipa> it's also not what you'd get by building from source and knstalling
3512020-03-12T19:21:22  <luke-jr> the gitian builds are terrible; they have a purpose, sure, but they're not even close to what users ideally would use
3522020-03-12T19:21:24  <wumpus> luke-jr: your last message was "BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic"
3532020-03-12T19:21:25  <luke-jr> the PPA is built by the OS vendor, and produces binaries specifically for the OS
3542020-03-12T19:21:44  <luke-jr> wumpus: after that was [19:16:12] <luke-jr> so I guess the questions are 1) do we want to keep the PPA at the old URI, and 2) can we satisfy BlueMatt to allow that?
3552020-03-12T19:21:49  <wumpus> make the gitian builds less horrible then
3562020-03-12T19:21:59  <luke-jr> wumpus: that's incompatible with the goal of them
3572020-03-12T19:22:03  <wumpus> it's what everything is based on and the only auditable one
3582020-03-12T19:22:13  <luke-jr> wumpus: gitian builds are intended to run anywhere, but that's incompatible with being targetted to a specific distro
3592020-03-12T19:22:39  <achow101> luke-jr: how so? something that runs anywhere should also run on a specific distro
3602020-03-12T19:22:46  * dongcarl is so confused
3612020-03-12T19:22:49  <MarcoFalke> agree with achow101
3622020-03-12T19:22:57  <sipa> luke-jr: just because of UI theming etc?
3632020-03-12T19:22:58  <luke-jr> achow101: ideally, binaries should dynamic link to system libraries for ~everything
3642020-03-12T19:23:01  <wumpus> things like GUI costomization/integration I guess
3652020-03-12T19:23:10  <luke-jr> sipa: that's a symptom
3662020-03-12T19:23:26  <wumpus> not that that ever worked well for the PPA
3672020-03-12T19:23:37  <wumpus> we had more UI issues with the PPA than ever with the gitian builds
3682020-03-12T19:23:43  <sipa> seema like a small price to pay for auditabke builds
3692020-03-12T19:23:47  <achow101> luke-jr: but we don't necessarily support the specific system libraries that may be installed
3702020-03-12T19:23:50  <sipa> sorry, car tyoing
3712020-03-12T19:23:50  <luke-jr> nobody is suggesting removing the gitian option
3722020-03-12T19:23:51  <achow101> there may be version differences, etc.
3732020-03-12T19:23:58  <luke-jr> achow101: we do
3742020-03-12T19:24:03  <wumpus> although at least the crazyness with ubuntu unity is gone now
3752020-03-12T19:24:05  <luke-jr> achow101: the preferred install is from source
3762020-03-12T19:24:35  <luke-jr> achow101: (and PPAs don't support distros without the required versions)
3772020-03-12T19:25:14  <luke-jr> logical order of preference, for an Ubuntu user, is build-from-source > PPA > gitian
3782020-03-12T19:25:23  <wumpus> but I agree with sipa, deterministic builds are worth a little bit of GUI integration annoyance
3792020-03-12T19:25:29  <MarcoFalke> If someone really wants to use the system libs, why can't they build from source?
3802020-03-12T19:25:37  <luke-jr> it might be nice if we could deterministically make the PPA debs, but Launchpad doesn't support that
3812020-03-12T19:25:47  <achow101> if a distro version lacks the requisite system libs, gitian would still work there, no? I think that's a good thing
3822020-03-12T19:25:49  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: many users don't know how, or don't want to spend the time
3832020-03-12T19:25:50  <dongcarl> Very naive thought: is it possible to have 2 PPAs, 1 for gitian built binaries, 1 for specifically OS-integrated?
3842020-03-12T19:25:57  <luke-jr> achow101: absolutely
3852020-03-12T19:26:05  <MarcoFalke> dongcarl: I'd support that
3862020-03-12T19:26:08  <luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are not a replacement for gitian, they are an alternative for certain users
3872020-03-12T19:26:17  <luke-jr> dongcarl: should be
3882020-03-12T19:26:24  <MarcoFalke> bitcoin/bitcoin would be deterministic and luke-jr/bitcoin is built with system libs
3892020-03-12T19:26:25  <luke-jr> dongcarl: sounds like a good idea, even
3902020-03-12T19:26:33  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: that seems backward
3912020-03-12T19:26:46  <luke-jr> bitcoin/bitcoin has always been system libs
3922020-03-12T19:27:00  <sipa> luke-jr: you seem to be the only one arguing for system libs
3932020-03-12T19:27:14  <luke-jr> sipa: so?
3942020-03-12T19:27:17  <achow101> I think anything "official" should only be determinisitic
3952020-03-12T19:27:22  <MarcoFalke> agree
3962020-03-12T19:27:23  <sipa> agree
3972020-03-12T19:27:24  <wumpus> achow101: +1
3982020-03-12T19:28:01  <dongcarl> agree
3992020-03-12T19:28:12  <fanquake> +1
4002020-03-12T19:28:13  <luke-jr> achow101: why?
4012020-03-12T19:28:20  <luke-jr> Distro-built is equivalent security
4022020-03-12T19:28:31  <luke-jr> if your distro is compromised, a gitian build won't help you
4032020-03-12T19:28:36  <wumpus> because it's the only one we can vouch for based on the sha256 hashes
4042020-03-12T19:28:58  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: We are talking about the ppa infrastructure being compromised, not the normal package build infra
4052020-03-12T19:29:07  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: isn't it the same?
4062020-03-12T19:29:18  <MarcoFalke> I hope for Ubuntu that they are different, at least different datacenters
4072020-03-12T19:29:34  <sipa> MarcoFalke: i doubt that
4082020-03-12T19:29:45  <wumpus> so I think we've pretty much reached an agreement here, any other topics?
4092020-03-12T19:29:47  <luke-jr> anyway, how about adding a disclaimer to the effect of "These are built by Canonical, not the Bitcoin Core project"?
4102020-03-12T19:29:48  <achow101> luke-jr: how is it the same?
4112020-03-12T19:30:01  <luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are built by Canonical
4122020-03-12T19:30:12  <sipa> luke-jr: and maintained by the PPA maintainer
4132020-03-12T19:30:33  <wumpus> yes but their build infrastructure runs arbitrary builds of arbitrary software, in the PPA case, so it's not that far fetched it could be compromised
4142020-03-12T19:30:39  <luke-jr> sipa: just like the snaps are..
4152020-03-12T19:30:56  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: The snap you can check against the signed hash
4162020-03-12T19:31:11  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: our website says you can't last I checked
4172020-03-12T19:31:13  <wumpus> right, the snap packages the gitian-built executables so you can verify them in the same way
4182020-03-12T19:31:27  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: I coldn't find a cross-platform way to do it
4192020-03-12T19:31:45  <MarcoFalke> But on my machine it works last time I tried
4202020-03-12T19:31:53  <wumpus> this would also be true for a PPA that packages the gitian-built binaries
4212020-03-12T19:32:22  <jonatack> wumpus: I am not sure the blockers are a topic this week, but FWIW it looks like #16426 is currently replaced by #17954
4222020-03-12T19:32:26  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16426 | Reverse cs_main, cs_wallet lock order and reduce cs_main locking by ariard · Pull Request #16426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4232020-03-12T19:32:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17954 | wallet: Remove calls to Chain::Lock methods by ryanofsky · Pull Request #17954 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4242020-03-12T19:32:44  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: it verifies the entire snap, not just the chosen binaries installed?
4252020-03-12T19:32:45  <jonatack> which, by mutual agreement of the PR authors, apparently should be merged in first
4262020-03-12T19:33:03  <wumpus> jonatack: I've forgone blockers because of focusing on things that need to go in before the feature freeze which is imminent, but sure I'll swap them
4272020-03-12T19:33:05  <luke-jr> I'm not entirely sure what argument sipa is trying to make..
4282020-03-12T19:33:20  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Of course you'd still have to trust the snapd
4292020-03-12T19:33:30  <luke-jr> there is no way I could as maintainer compromise the PPA without it being publicly visible
4302020-03-12T19:34:31  <achow101> but it's possible for canonical to compromise it invisibly
4312020-03-12T19:34:37  <luke-jr> achow101: absolutely.
4322020-03-12T19:34:42  <luke-jr> just like they can compromise the OS
4332020-03-12T19:34:52  <luke-jr> in which case gitian does no good to prevent it
4342020-03-12T19:35:03  *** rjected has quit IRC
4352020-03-12T19:35:54  <achow101> but at least users can verify that the ppa was not compromised with gitian
4362020-03-12T19:36:03  <hebasto> are any estimation of a ppa share among all users?
4372020-03-12T19:36:06  <achow101> and IIRC, PPAs can still be used on ubuntu derivatives
4382020-03-12T19:36:14  <achow101> and other distros which are not necessarily canonical
4392020-03-12T19:36:19  <luke-jr> hebasto: very few have noticed the URI changed
4402020-03-12T19:36:30  <sipa> luke-jr: it didn't cba ge
4412020-03-12T19:36:37  <sipa> it was discontinued
4422020-03-12T19:36:47  <luke-jr> sipa: no, I am still maintaining it
4432020-03-12T19:36:47  <sipa> you have your own PPA
4442020-03-12T19:37:32  <luke-jr> hebasto: 2019-09, there were still around 8000 users of the PPA at bitcoin/bitcoin
4452020-03-12T19:37:53  <wumpus> so we already discussed a compromise acceptable with most people here (two PPAs), I'm not sure it makes sense to continue arguing this
4462020-03-12T19:37:56  <luke-jr> who are now stuck on 0.18.0 until they switch to the new PPA
4472020-03-12T19:38:40  <luke-jr> wumpus: anyone can make a 2nd PPA, but I'm not sure there's a need with the snap doing the gitian binaries already
4482020-03-12T19:38:43  <sipa> maybe we should, until we resolve this, push an update to the PPA that installs a binary that just prints "this is not maintained, see page X"
4492020-03-12T19:38:56  <luke-jr> sipa: or at least deletes the binary
4502020-03-12T19:39:02  <sipa> right
4512020-03-12T19:39:29  <sipa> i agree there are probably people stuck at 0.18 by not noticing the ppa page that says it's not maintained
4522020-03-12T19:39:30  <luke-jr> maybe less invasive to patch 0.18.0 with a message, but.. not sure I like the idea of doing a known-vulnerable "release"
4532020-03-12T19:39:31  <wumpus> at least make sure it doesn't delete the wallet ...
4542020-03-12T19:39:55  <sipa> wumpus: i don't think system installs can delete user files
4552020-03-12T19:40:18  <wumpus> sipa: I think that was a risk wit hthe snap at some point
4562020-03-12T19:40:22  <luke-jr> I guess that's one potentially scary thing about Snaps
4572020-03-12T19:40:24  <luke-jr> yeah
4582020-03-12T19:40:31  <sipa> wumpus: i know nothing about snap
4592020-03-12T19:40:39  <luke-jr> sipa: it's basically a chroot AIUI
4602020-03-12T19:40:51  *** vasild_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4612020-03-12T19:40:58  <wumpus> but yes unintalling a deb shouldn't remove user files (or even system configuration files without --purge)
4622020-03-12T19:41:16  <MarcoFalke> Snap creates a snapshot of your wallet on uninstall
4632020-03-12T19:41:32  <sipa> MarcoFalke: scary
4642020-03-12T19:41:35  *** dr-orlovsky has quit IRC
4652020-03-12T19:41:37  <luke-jr> I suppose that might be a reason to support a second gitian-binary PPA
4662020-03-12T19:41:59  <MarcoFalke> sipa: Less scary than deleting it
4672020-03-12T19:42:07  <sipa> fair
4682020-03-12T19:42:13  <luke-jr> back to the original topic though, bitcoin/bitcoin seems like a bad URI IMO
4692020-03-12T19:42:25  <luke-jr> bumping it with a move message seems like a good solution
4702020-03-12T19:42:35  <luke-jr> and that can refer to the two new PPAs with clarification of distinction
4712020-03-12T19:42:36  <luke-jr> ?
4722020-03-12T19:43:19  <luke-jr> could be luke-jr/bitcoincore & luke-jr/bitcoincore-deterministic, or bitcoincore/bitcoincore-{system,deterministic} or something along those lines?
4732020-03-12T19:43:43  <luke-jr> (not promising I'll make the gitian binary PPA - just throwing out ideas for discussion)
4742020-03-12T19:43:43  *** vasild has quit IRC
4752020-03-12T19:43:44  *** vasild_ is now known as vasild
4762020-03-12T19:44:02  <luke-jr> advantage of the former is that it's obvious who maintains it; but the latter will work even if multiple people or maintainers change
4772020-03-12T19:44:22  <achow101> I think we have to keep bitcoin/bitcoin just to keep existing docs working and not confusing existing users further
4782020-03-12T19:44:28  <luke-jr> downside of the latter is it implies the project is responsible for it, which seems undesirable
4792020-03-12T19:45:06  <wumpus> if there's two PPAs then docs have to be updated anyway
4802020-03-12T19:45:09  <luke-jr> achow101: currently only BlueMatt has a monopoly on the 'bitcoin' name
4812020-03-12T19:45:22  <wumpus> WITH documentation on what the choice is and why
4822020-03-12T19:45:44  <luke-jr> even providing a notice-bump on the old PPA will require BlueMatt's cooperation
4832020-03-12T19:47:13  <MarcoFalke> In launchpad it is possible to change the email address to something@bitcoincore.org, so that whoever has access to that can reset it
4842020-03-12T19:47:27  <MarcoFalke> That is how I set up the snap
4852020-03-12T19:49:02  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I don't know how BlueMatt setup the Launchpad stuff - I suspect the account is his personal account, and ~bitcoin is just a team with only him
4862020-03-12T19:49:11  <luke-jr> would be nice if we could come to some agreement here to present to BlueMatt.. maybe "two new PPAs, and bump bitcoin/bitcoin with a notice"?
4872020-03-12T19:49:51  <luke-jr> actually, notice should mention the gitian builds and Snap too for completeness IMO
4882020-03-12T19:51:14  <wumpus> yes +1 with adding a notice to bitcoin/bitcoin at least, no matter if there's any new PPAs
4892020-03-12T19:52:01  <luke-jr> it would be IMO absurd to say that BlueMatt is allowed to maintain a PPA and I am not
4902020-03-12T19:52:55  <luke-jr> (which is what would be implied by refusing to tell users of the new URI)
4912020-03-12T19:52:56  <wumpus> well we all think an 'official' PPA should be built from the gitian-built binaries, and you disagree with that, so that's not entirely unexpected
4922020-03-12T19:53:20  <luke-jr> wumpus: it never has been
4932020-03-12T19:53:21  <ryanofsky> does PPA require a single maintainer? with snaps we have a github packaging repository that gets normal review and a something@bitcoincore.org owner like marco mentioned
4942020-03-12T19:53:40  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: the PPA stuff is in the same repo
4952020-03-12T19:54:01  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: I have a PR open for the gitian YML that submits it to Canonical, but nobody seem to care to review it
4962020-03-12T19:54:49  <wumpus> that's another point to simply package the gitain-built binaries; it doens't require as much maintenance or separate testing
4972020-03-12T19:54:49  <ryanofsky> oh, well it seems kind of important to get that merged so we can have multiple maintainers
4982020-03-12T19:54:53  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: It seems to be pending on the further steps we take
4992020-03-12T19:55:18  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: I wasn't aware anyone else was interested ;)
5002020-03-12T19:56:10  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: ultimately, it's a question of whether someone is trying to dictate to users how they use Core, or let them make an informed decision
5012020-03-12T19:57:21  <luke-jr> it'd be one thing if nobody was willing to maintain the PPA at all; it's another to try to stop someone
5022020-03-12T19:57:59  <wumpus> well you're maintaining it, we're definitely not able to stop you doing that
5032020-03-12T19:58:28  <wumpus> or even interested in doing so
5042020-03-12T19:58:42  <MarcoFalke> Filed an issue here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/packaging/issues/36
5052020-03-12T19:58:43  <luke-jr> wumpus: right, but it's also inappropriate to suddenly pretend it doesn't exist, or block users from finding it
5062020-03-12T19:59:02  <wumpus> the point is *if* you want 'official' recognition for it, you'll also have to have other people agree with you how to do things
5072020-03-12T19:59:23  <wumpus> if you do it your own way in your own ppa, fine, topic closed :)
5082020-03-12T19:59:37  <wumpus> #endmeeting
5092020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 12 19:59:37 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
5102020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.html
5112020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.txt
5122020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.log.html
5132020-03-12T19:59:37  <luke-jr> this is the same way it's always been, and the way these users are used to it
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5152020-03-12T19:59:57  <hebasto> luke-jr: what is "AIUI" you referred to? (19:40:39 UTC)
5162020-03-12T20:00:04  <luke-jr> As I Understand It
5172020-03-12T20:00:16  <hebasto> thanks ;)
5182020-03-12T20:00:27  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5192020-03-12T20:01:13  <luke-jr> wumpus: deceiving users into thinking they must switch to gitian-derived binaries that aren't tailored to their OS, is the opposite extreme from 'official' recognition
5202020-03-12T20:01:23  <wumpus> it's the way things were done but we realized that it was not a good idea
5212020-03-12T20:02:40  <wumpus> e.g. due to unique bugs in the ppa build
5222020-03-12T20:02:45  <luke-jr> so because you think it isn't a good idea, everyone who disagrees is censored?
5232020-03-12T20:03:21  <wumpus> what, do you feel censored?
5242020-03-12T20:03:23  *** I_LIKE_FREE has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5252020-03-12T20:03:46  <luke-jr> wumpus: if there is an intentional effort to deceive users into not knowing they can continue to use a PPA, that seems to fit
5262020-03-12T20:03:50  <wumpus> you were allowed to monopolize the entire meeting
5272020-03-12T20:04:15  <wumpus> I don't think we could give you a bigger platform for your opinions if we wanted
5282020-03-12T20:04:20  <wumpus> that doesn't mean we have to agree with it
5292020-03-12T20:04:32  <luke-jr> meetings are between devs; I doubt many users read it
5302020-03-12T20:04:41  <luke-jr> well, many probably do, but many do not
5312020-03-12T20:06:28  * luke-jr wonders if plotting node versions over time would reveal much about how many are 'stuck' on 0.18.0
5322020-03-12T20:06:39  <hebasto> ryanofsky: mind looking into #17813 discussion about default configure options? Will appreciate your opinion.
5332020-03-12T20:06:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17813 | build: --with-gui configure option without argument should warn if Qt not found · Issue #17813 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5342020-03-12T20:07:41  <ryanofsky> i looked briefly, it seemed like what carl suggested there was the obvious thing to do, not sure if it is difficult to implement. can comment though
5352020-03-12T20:08:05  <hebasto> ryanofsky: thanks!
5362020-03-12T20:09:20  <hebasto> ryanofsky: do you think the help string is clear?
5372020-03-12T20:11:57  <ryanofsky> current one from issue description seems unclear in the way you suggested
5382020-03-12T20:12:33  <hebasto> ok
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5432020-03-12T21:04:09  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: hey, sorry I missed the meeting, it totally didnt cross my mind that I'd be going through tsa during it :(
5442020-03-12T21:07:17  <BlueMatt> sounds like the conclusion is "needs to be gitian built, cause no one disagrees with that, but everyone feels somewhat uncomfortable with it being anything else"
5452020-03-12T21:09:15  *** jb55 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5462020-03-12T21:11:17  <BlueMatt> which I'm def happy with (been saying it for literally years) - are you interested in rewriting the build scripts luke-jr or is someone else gonna?
5472020-03-12T21:17:36  *** sirkitree has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5482020-03-12T21:35:26  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I disagree with only gitian static binaries
5492020-03-12T21:35:30  <luke-jr> the conclusion was both options
5502020-03-12T21:35:50  <luke-jr> and changing bitcoin/bitcoin to a notice of some sort explaining the upgrade paths
5512020-03-12T21:35:55  <luke-jr> are you okay with that?
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5592020-03-12T21:56:24  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the thing already says its unmaintained. I'll clarify to point out that it is not official and that those who want something more officially maintained they should followup on the packaging issue.
5602020-03-12T21:56:37  <BlueMatt> note that I've been complaining about the ppa for years, so this should be a surprise to no one.
5612020-03-12T21:56:51  <BlueMatt> and have been indicating that it needs to be gitian-binaries for years
5622020-03-12T21:57:53  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: PPA users will probably never even look at that page
5632020-03-12T21:58:01  <sipa> BlueMatt: i think one issue that isn't addressed is that plenty of existing PPA installs will never see that page
5642020-03-12T21:58:22  <sipa> so an idea would be to push an update that removes the binary at least, or even better, one that prints a notice
5652020-03-12T21:58:23  <BlueMatt> right, I dunno what to do there? I can delete the packages but anyone on recentish ubuntu releases will fail to install anyway
5662020-03-12T21:58:25  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it absolutely should not be gitian binaries. That's fine as an option, but it is not a replacemnet.
5672020-03-12T21:58:42  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the idea was to version bump with a text file or something
5682020-03-12T21:58:59  <luke-jr> (possibly deleting the installed binaries, which may be controversial?)
5692020-03-12T21:59:14  <BlueMatt> ubuntu 19.X will fail to install already, as well as 20.04
5702020-03-12T21:59:21  <BlueMatt> let me also delete the packages
5712020-03-12T21:59:27  <luke-jr> deleting them won't uninstall them
5722020-03-12T21:59:42  <BlueMatt> yes, but an os upgrde will
5732020-03-12T21:59:56  <BlueMatt> it warns you on upgrade and requires confirmation to continue
5742020-03-12T21:59:59  <luke-jr> OS upgrade probably already dropped them
5752020-03-12T22:00:51  <luke-jr> the issue is the ~6000 existing installs who haven't upgraded
5762020-03-12T22:00:57  <luke-jr> using LTS
5772020-03-12T22:01:07  <BlueMatt> almost all of those distros are unmaintained at the os level?
5782020-03-12T22:01:15  <sipa> xenial is still maintained until april 2021
5792020-03-12T22:01:16  *** kristapsk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5802020-03-12T22:01:23  <BlueMatt> only xenaial and bionic are not
5812020-03-12T22:01:28  <luke-jr> even trusty is still maintained IIRC..
5822020-03-12T22:01:52  <sipa> trusty is in "extended security maintenance"
5832020-03-12T22:02:06  <luke-jr> trusty says EOL April 2022
5842020-03-12T22:02:34  <luke-jr> precise is extended security maint
5852020-03-12T22:02:57  <BlueMatt> precise is eol for "extendeds ecurity" in 2019
5862020-03-12T22:02:57  <sipa> ESM requires registering with Ubuntu
5872020-03-12T22:02:57  <luke-jr> wait no, precise is dead, but the wiki is outdated
5882020-03-12T22:03:22  <luke-jr> in any case, there are still people using 0.18.0, and likely from matt's ppa
5892020-03-12T22:03:54  <luke-jr> they shouldn't be told "switch to gitian binaries or else"; they should be made aware they can continue using system builds via the new PPA
5902020-03-12T22:03:54  <sipa> i suspect that some are
5912020-03-12T22:04:35  <sipa> luke-jr: if they trust you
5922020-03-12T22:05:03  <achow101> luke-jr: can you succinctly say why system libs > gitian? I highly suspect that users of the PPA won't know or really care.
5932020-03-12T22:05:11  <luke-jr> sipa: if they trust Canonical; again, there is nothing I can do without it being publicly visible.. but sure, a reasonable notice is fine
5942020-03-12T22:05:40  <luke-jr> achow101: system libs integrates better, is more RAM-efficient, and gets bugfix updates (incl security) immediately
5952020-03-12T22:06:07  <luke-jr> achow101: I don't know which Ubuntu version, but one has serious usability issues with gitian builds
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5972020-03-12T22:07:03  <BlueMatt> note that the ppa was *worse* in that regard
5982020-03-12T22:07:15  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
5992020-03-12T22:07:28  <BlueMatt> though the gui issues are a bit better due to ubuntu dropping their own crap and going back to gnome
6002020-03-12T22:08:54  <luke-jr> only got stats for cosmic before BlueMatt deleted the pkgs, but people are still installing it since 2019-09 :x
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6022020-03-12T22:09:39  <BlueMatt> we cant help anyone with an outdated unmaintained ubuntu distro
6032020-03-12T22:09:47  <BlueMatt> launchpad doesnt even let you upload replacement dummy packages
6042020-03-12T22:10:02  <luke-jr> sure, but we can help people using maintained versions
6052020-03-12T22:10:35  <ysangkok> luke-jr: how big are the RAM savings? wouldn't it only be a few megabytes at most? very small compared to the total RAM usage
6062020-03-12T22:10:48  <BlueMatt> thats basically just bionic, which should go away mostly very soon
6072020-03-12T22:10:54  <luke-jr> ysangkok: all of Qt?
6082020-03-12T22:11:23  <BlueMatt> ysangkok: for reference, most "modern, hip" stuff is moving to static-linking-by-default (rust, go, i mean shit electron apps ship an entire copy of chromium for each application)
6092020-03-12T22:11:32  *** jarthur has quit IRC
6102020-03-12T22:11:40  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: which is why I advise nobody use them
6112020-03-12T22:11:42  <BlueMatt> but, for us, its super trivial, and allows for testing and maintinence focus, which is critical
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6132020-03-12T22:13:45  <ysangkok> luke-jr: bitcoin doesn't use "all of Qt". for example, my libqt5core is only 6 MB. and given that the default desktop isn't qt-based, qt may be loaded solely for bitcoin in case it is dynamically linked
6142020-03-12T22:14:22  <luke-jr> ysangkok: worst case scenario, it's the same as if it was static linked, yes; but best case (and likely) scenario is better
6152020-03-12T22:14:45  <sipa> if 6 MB is a problem, you probably shouldn't be running bitcoin core
6162020-03-12T22:15:16  <luke-jr> heh, true
6172020-03-12T22:15:28  <sipa> i agree in principle - there are advantages to dynamic libraries
6182020-03-12T22:15:46  <sipa> but i don't see how they weigh up against the disadvantages in this case
6192020-03-12T22:15:47  <luke-jr> one or two of the distros have a page explaining why it's bad to static link
6202020-03-12T22:15:56  <luke-jr> sipa: what disadvantage?
6212020-03-12T22:16:12  <sipa> luke-jr: reproducible binaries that can be compared with everyone
6222020-03-12T22:16:17  <sipa> being the major one
6232020-03-12T22:16:39  <luke-jr> there's no practical advantage to that when comparing to OS vendor built
6242020-03-12T22:16:53  <luke-jr> unless the OS itself is deterministic, which none are yet
6252020-03-12T22:17:29  <luke-jr> hmm, Debian claims static "renders some security measure less effective (ASLR for example)."
6262020-03-12T22:17:32  <luke-jr> is that actually true?
6272020-03-12T22:21:44  <sipa> i don't know
6282020-03-12T22:25:02  <luke-jr> I would think PIE would at least get us *some* level of ASLR
6292020-03-12T22:29:07  <elichai2> Haven't tested this tool yet, but if it works correctly probably other people here will find it very useful :) https://github.com/tummychow/git-absorb/blob/master/README.md
6302020-03-12T22:29:37  <elichai2> (it basically automates fixing commits after review without the need to interactive rebase and fix one by one)
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6342020-03-12T22:47:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18337: init: Remove boost::thread_group (master...2003-NoBoostThreadGroup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18337
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