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 562020-04-09T05:35:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #18572: Wallet: Accept "changedata" db key as an alias to "destdata" (master...changedata_forwardcompat) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18572
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 802020-04-09T07:43:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18333: build: Drop deprecated ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS variable (master...20200311-deprecated-amflags) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18333
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 872020-04-09T08:01:36  <jonasschnelli> Can someone restart https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/32034256?
 882020-04-09T08:01:51  <jonasschnelli> Or tell me how to do it? I logged in but don't have a restart build button
 892020-04-09T08:01:58  <fanquake> done
 902020-04-09T08:02:09  <sipa> fanquake beat me to it
 912020-04-09T08:02:17  <fanquake> how unusual
 922020-04-09T08:02:24  <sipa> not really
 932020-04-09T08:02:46  <jonasschnelli> heh... bored in quarantaine?
 942020-04-09T08:04:00  <fanquake> jonasschnelli: I'm not sure how to get you a restart button. Are you authed via github, or a different method?
 952020-04-09T08:04:15  <jonasschnelli> I just logged in via github, yes.
 962020-04-09T08:04:33  <jonasschnelli> I haven't manually added a project,.. which I think i don't have to do?
 972020-04-09T08:04:59  <jonasschnelli> well,... i won't use it too much. So no urgency.
 982020-04-09T08:05:11  <fanquake> I don't think so, but can't quite remember.
 992020-04-09T08:05:26  <fanquake> I've currently lost my Travis restart button, which is much more annoying.
1002020-04-09T08:05:43  <fanquake> Re-authing didn't seem to help either.
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1052020-04-09T08:39:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #18573: [RFC] bitcoin-asmap utility (master...202004_asmap_tool) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18573
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1092020-04-09T09:12:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #18574: getinfo: call getbalances.ismine.trusted instead of getwalletinfo.balance (master...getinfo-call-getbalances-instead-of-getwalletinfo-balances) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18574
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1142020-04-09T09:35:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic closed pull request #18570: rpc: return block hash in getbalances json (master...return-blockhash-with-wallet-calls) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18570
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1172020-04-09T09:52:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic reopened pull request #18570: rpc: return block hash in getbalances json (master...return-blockhash-with-wallet-calls) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18570
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1422020-04-09T12:08:04  <wumpus> unless anyone disagrees strongly I'm going to merge #18553 and tag rc1 in a bit
1432020-04-09T12:08:06  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18553 | Avoid non-trivial global constants in SHA-NI code by sipa · Pull Request #18553 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1442020-04-09T12:08:15  <wumpus> (after branching off 0.20 etc ofc)
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1462020-04-09T12:09:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/661bd5dea3d0...dcef5ad6ec10
1472020-04-09T12:09:58  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa68a3e MarcoFalke: appveyor: Enable minimal unit test logging to aid debugging
1482020-04-09T12:09:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa7af33 MarcoFalke: ci: Run unit tests sequential once
1492020-04-09T12:09:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dcef5ad MarcoFalke: Merge #18562: ci: Run unit tests sequential once
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1522020-04-09T12:10:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18562: ci: Run unit tests sequential once (master...2004-qaFixTestTeardown) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18562
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1572020-04-09T12:22:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/dcef5ad6ec10...87374d80a71d
1582020-04-09T12:22:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa5e973 MarcoFalke: test: Set -use_value_profile=1 when merging fuzz inputs
1592020-04-09T12:22:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 87374d8 MarcoFalke: Merge #18566: test: Set -use_value_profile=1 when merging fuzz inputs
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1622020-04-09T12:23:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18566: test: Set -use_value_profile=1 when merging fuzz inputs (master...2004-fuzzValueProfile) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18566
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1662020-04-09T12:40:29  <fanquake> wumpus: sounds good
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1692020-04-09T12:44:28  <wumpus> the other option would be to skip #18553 for now
1702020-04-09T12:44:30  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18553 | Avoid non-trivial global constants in SHA-NI code by sipa · Pull Request #18553 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1712020-04-09T12:45:19  <wumpus> as some people think it invokes strange undefined C++ behavior maybe that's better, though I'm not sure it's strictly worse than calling optional instruction sets in the initializers
1722020-04-09T12:46:11  <wumpus> but I don't want to block 0.20 for it for days
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1992020-04-09T13:18:42  <wumpus> fanquake: we might want a linter at some point that checks for init.* sections in the object files for optional instruction sets
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2012020-04-09T13:19:37  <fanquake> wumpus: interesting
2022020-04-09T13:19:39  <wumpus> i mean,  .text.startup sections
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2102020-04-09T13:24:34  <wumpus> a quick hack using "find -name \*.o -print0 | xargs -0 grep -l '.text.startup'" doesn't seem to find any others that might be problematic
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2132020-04-09T13:27:42  <fanquake> wumpus: I see these sections in a fairly recent master https://gist.github.com/fanquake/90bfbed7d8e31e2191ec806cb67b78cf
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2152020-04-09T13:29:16  <wumpus> sections such as .text.startup won't be in the final executable (the linker map collapses them)
2162020-04-09T13:29:42  <wumpus> but it's fine to have them in .o's compiled with the default compiler options
2172020-04-09T13:29:52  <fanquake> ah I see. I do have a map
2182020-04-09T13:30:00  <fanquake> I see:
2192020-04-09T13:30:08  <fanquake>  .rela.text.startup
2202020-04-09T13:30:08  <fanquake>  *(.text.startup .text.startup.*)
2212020-04-09T13:30:08  <fanquake>  .text.startup  0x0000000000001090       0x74 /tmp/ccjlo7po.o
2222020-04-09T13:32:04  <fanquake> Was playing around with this for #17929. We are going to swap to just passing the  optimization flags to the linker, and I was examining the differences in the binaries.
2232020-04-09T13:32:05  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17929 | build: add --enable-linker-optimizations configure flag by fanquake · Pull Request #17929 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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2412020-04-09T14:21:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/87374d80a71d...1ae366ecb067
2422020-04-09T14:21:00  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 97ba77a Hennadii Stepanov: ci: Add native s390x
2432020-04-09T14:21:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6136a96 Hennadii Stepanov: ci: Rename RUN_CI_ON_HOST to DANGER_RUN_CI_ON_HOST
2442020-04-09T14:21:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1ae366e MarcoFalke: Merge #18569: ci: Add big endian native s390x build
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2472020-04-09T14:21:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18569: ci: Add big endian native s390x build (master...20200326-allow-s390x) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18569
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2502020-04-09T14:22:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1ae366ecb067...081dcbde6623
2512020-04-09T14:22:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faede1b MarcoFalke: test: Properly raise FailedToStartError when rpc shutdown before warmup fi...
2522020-04-09T14:23:00  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 081dcbd MarcoFalke: Merge #18561: test: Properly raise FailedToStartError when rpc shutdown be...
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2552020-04-09T14:23:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18561: test: Properly raise FailedToStartError when rpc shutdown before warmup finished (master...2004-qaFailedToStartConnectionReset) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18561
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3022020-04-09T16:53:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18575: bench: Remove requirement that all benches use same testing setup (master...2004-benchNoGlobalReg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18575
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3372020-04-09T18:20:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gzhao408 opened pull request #18576: wip [test] use unittest for test_framework unit testing (master...framework-unittests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18576
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3532020-04-09T18:46:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] yahiheb opened pull request #18577: doc: Correct scripted-diff example link (master...correct-link) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18577
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3582020-04-09T19:00:05  <wumpus> #startmeeting
3592020-04-09T19:00:05  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  9 19:00:05 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3602020-04-09T19:00:05  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
3612020-04-09T19:00:12  <sipa> hi
3622020-04-09T19:00:22  <elichai2> hi
3632020-04-09T19:00:44  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
3642020-04-09T19:00:46  <wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
3652020-04-09T19:00:51  <achow101> hi
3662020-04-09T19:00:52  <jonasschnelli> hi
3672020-04-09T19:00:52  <jonatack> hi
3682020-04-09T19:00:55  <hebasto> hi
3692020-04-09T19:00:58  <jkczyz> hi
3702020-04-09T19:01:05  <aj> hola
3712020-04-09T19:01:05  <MarcoFalke> hi
3722020-04-09T19:01:12  <sdaftuar> hi!
3732020-04-09T19:01:38  <MarcoFalke> (sorry, merge bot incoming in a few secs)
3742020-04-09T19:01:39  <cfields> hi
3752020-04-09T19:01:53  <amiti> hi
3762020-04-09T19:01:55  <wumpus> any proposed topics?
3772020-04-09T19:02:11  <jnewbery> hi
3782020-04-09T19:02:12  <MarcoFalke> wen release?
3792020-04-09T19:02:16  <wumpus> looks like there's one by achow101: deprecating signrawtx RPCs
3802020-04-09T19:02:28  <sipa> low priority topic if there's time: future of asmap?
3812020-04-09T19:02:31  <wumpus> MarcoFalke:depends on whether  #18553 is a blocker
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3832020-04-09T19:02:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/081dcbde6623...405713d00fb4
3842020-04-09T19:02:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5560845 Pieter Wuille: Make a fuzzer-based copy of the prevector randomized test
3852020-04-09T19:02:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eda8309 Pieter Wuille: Assert immediately rather than caching failure
3862020-04-09T19:02:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18553 | Avoid non-trivial global constants in SHA-NI code by sipa · Pull Request #18553 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3872020-04-09T19:02:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 402ad5a Pieter Wuille: Only run sanity check once at the end
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3902020-04-09T19:02:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18529: Add fuzzer version of randomized prevector test (master...202004_prevector_fuzz) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18529
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3922020-04-09T19:03:06  <achow101> rc1 soon?
3932020-04-09T19:03:11  <MarcoFalke> I wish rebroad could ACK it, since they reported the issue
3942020-04-09T19:03:16  <hebasto> why 18553 could be a blocker?
3952020-04-09T19:03:23  <wumpus> it's the only PR left that is tagged for 0.20
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3972020-04-09T19:03:47  <wumpus> hebasto: because if your system doesn't support the instruction it'll just crash before main()
3982020-04-09T19:04:11  <MarcoFalke> Does anyone have that CPU to test?
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4002020-04-09T19:04:26  <elichai2> MarcoFalke: I'm surprised this is the first time we're hearing about this issue. I would've thought everyone without SSE* support will get this error
4012020-04-09T19:04:27  <sipa> i'm not sure the problem will appear in every build (it may be compiler dependent)
4022020-04-09T19:04:39  <wumpus> no, bitcoind master runs fine even on my oldest pc, but it might depend on compiler too
4032020-04-09T19:04:41  <sipa> would i understand how our existing code is broken for systems that do not have sse4
4042020-04-09T19:04:58  <sipa> *but i understand
4052020-04-09T19:05:13  <wumpus>  movaps is SSE2, right?
4062020-04-09T19:05:16  <promag> hi
4072020-04-09T19:05:36  <wumpus> if the init code contained *SSE4* oh sure we'd have noticed
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4092020-04-09T19:05:51  <cfields> *sse2
4102020-04-09T19:05:54  <cfields> wumpus: right
4112020-04-09T19:06:08  <sipa> i suspect he is executing an sse4 instruction
4122020-04-09T19:06:10  <wumpus> almost(?) all amd64 processors support SSE2
4132020-04-09T19:06:14  <sipa> because his system has sse2
4142020-04-09T19:06:18  <wumpus> oh
4152020-04-09T19:06:32  <wumpus> okay in that case we don't know if the PR fixes theproblem at all
4162020-04-09T19:06:40  <sipa> it does
4172020-04-09T19:06:41  <wumpus> I suggest we just move on with the branch-off and rc1
4182020-04-09T19:06:58  <cfields> ah, I guess if we're targetting sse4 it's free to ignore the sse2 intrinsic. Annoying that those are only hints.
4192020-04-09T19:07:14  <sipa> wumpus: the sha256-shani module is compiled with sse4 on, so any code the compiler produces in that module is allowed to have sse4 instructions
4202020-04-09T19:07:24  <sipa> the fact that it has a global initializer is a bug regardless
4212020-04-09T19:07:30  <wumpus> sipa: yes, I agree
4222020-04-09T19:07:45  <wumpus> I'm the person who ACKed that PR, I think it's a good change
4232020-04-09T19:07:46  <elichai2> anyways the current code is somewhat broken
4242020-04-09T19:07:53  <elichai2> even if that's not his specific problem
4252020-04-09T19:08:01  <sipa> we don't know the exact conditions to reproduce it (which is hard, as it's compiler dependent), but i believe my PR is a bugfix independently of that
4262020-04-09T19:08:09  <elichai2> sipa: exactly
4272020-04-09T19:08:12  <wumpus> yes
4282020-04-09T19:08:29  <wumpus> it makes sense no matter what
4292020-04-09T19:08:46  <wumpus> even reduces code size a bit
4302020-04-09T19:09:03  <sipa> but if we want to make sure rebroad's issue is fixed in 0.20... we have no choice but to wait for him
4312020-04-09T19:09:07  <sipa> i think we can do that in rc1
4322020-04-09T19:09:13  <jarthur> If anyone needs time on a machine w/ hardware SHA-NI for profiling/memory sanitization, send me your SSH pubkey and I'll give you a VM
4332020-04-09T19:09:26  <sipa> i have one too
4342020-04-09T19:09:36  <wumpus> I'm not going to hold up rc1 on them testing it
4352020-04-09T19:09:39  <sipa> a machine without sse4 would be more useful :p
4362020-04-09T19:10:00  <luke-jr> (proposed topic: change destdata)
4372020-04-09T19:10:01  <sipa> there are very few x86_64 systems without sse4 i think
4382020-04-09T19:10:12  <luke-jr> although maybe better for wallet meeting tomorrow
4392020-04-09T19:10:21  <wumpus> true, even my old dev machine has "sse4a"
4402020-04-09T19:10:29  <luke-jr> (but does relate to 0.20)
4412020-04-09T19:12:41  <elichai2> jarthur: I would like to run some UB sanitizer on the patch, just because I'm a bit uncomfortable with C++'s alignment rules
4422020-04-09T19:13:05  <wumpus> in that case, let's do rc1 without it
4432020-04-09T19:13:11  <sipa> ack
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4452020-04-09T19:13:32  <cfields> elichai2: if you're that uncomfortable, there's an intrinsic that doesn't require alignment.
4462020-04-09T19:13:46  <luke-jr> should probably get at least #18572 into 0.20
4472020-04-09T19:13:48  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18572 | Wallet: Accept "changedata" db key as an alias to "destdata" by luke-jr · Pull Request #18572 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4482020-04-09T19:13:56  <cfields> compiler might even auto-upgrade it?
4492020-04-09T19:14:11  <sipa> cfields: i don't think it can
4502020-04-09T19:14:14  <wumpus> the current solution has 0 overhead at least
4512020-04-09T19:14:18  <elichai2> cfields: I'm not saying it's UB/ID just that I don't know the rules well enough :) I assume the unaligned load is costlier
4522020-04-09T19:14:31  <sipa> elichai2: on most systems they have the same cost, but not all
4532020-04-09T19:14:33  <wumpus> it even generates the same code as before
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4552020-04-09T19:15:14  <elichai2> sipa: I thought SIMD instructions do require aligned pointers. unlike regular loads/stores
4562020-04-09T19:15:22  <elichai2> (x86/x86_64)
4572020-04-09T19:15:23  <cfields> yeah, I'm not really understanding the concern. We use alignment tricks in sse4 as well.
4582020-04-09T19:15:26  <sipa> elichai2: correct
4592020-04-09T19:15:33  <luke-jr> depends on the CPU in my expereince
4602020-04-09T19:15:43  <wumpus> yes, alignas(__m128i) should just work
4612020-04-09T19:15:46  <sipa> elichai2: movdqa requires alignment, movdqu does not
4622020-04-09T19:16:11  <elichai2> Ok, if other people are confident in this than I'm ACK too
4632020-04-09T19:16:15  <luke-jr> for a long time at least, Mesa and glibc used ssse3 for memcpy-type stuff, even when unaligned - and it broke on (IIRC) Sandy Bridge
4642020-04-09T19:16:15  <sipa> but still on most systems they have the same cost; the distinction was made because on early CPUs they differed
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4662020-04-09T19:17:28  <wumpus> we use alignas() in a few other places too
4672020-04-09T19:17:43  <wumpus> if the compier ignores it, we're screwed with regard to UB in either case
4682020-04-09T19:17:46  <sipa> yeah, i'm not worried about the alignment thing
4692020-04-09T19:17:59  <wumpus> (prevector comes to mind)
4702020-04-09T19:19:06  <elichai2> wasn't there a UB in a version of prevector?
4712020-04-09T19:19:43  <wumpus> yes, that was solved using the current explicit construction
4722020-04-09T19:19:52  <sipa> elichai2: the kind of technically-UB-by-the-C++-spec-but-not-on-any-real-platform one only, afaik
4732020-04-09T19:20:04  <wumpus> it wasn't alignas()'s fault
4742020-04-09T19:20:07  <elichai2> isn't that the worse kind? :P
4752020-04-09T19:20:28  <sipa> elichai2: i think bugs that affect production code are just *slightly* more serious
4762020-04-09T19:20:30  <elichai2> right it's a pragma thing
4772020-04-09T19:21:11  <elichai2> anyhow, we're talking about this too much :) I'm ACK if people feel confident, my lack of understanding shouldn't stop anything
4782020-04-09T19:21:16  <jeremyrubin> just noting that there is a pragma free version of prevector that could be written and has no UB; but it's a bigger refactor
4792020-04-09T19:21:27  <cfields> elichai2: nothing wrong with being paranoid.
4802020-04-09T19:21:33  <sipa> of course
4812020-04-09T19:21:50  <wumpus> #topic deprecating signrawtx RPCs (achow101)
4822020-04-09T19:22:11  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: we're not discussing refactoring prevector again :)
4832020-04-09T19:23:01  <achow101> so multisig signrawtransaction workflows don't work with descriptor wallets
4842020-04-09T19:23:20  <achow101> I was thinking that because we have psbt now, we should deprecate the signrawtx RPCs
4852020-04-09T19:23:35  <MarcoFalke> completely or only for multisig?
4862020-04-09T19:23:38  <jonasschnelli> can you quickly elaborate why it won't work with desc. wallets?
4872020-04-09T19:23:40  <wumpus> I'm not generally in favor of depracating signrawtx RPCs, many people use the raw transactions workflow
4882020-04-09T19:23:48  <achow101> it should be a longer deprecation cycle because it's so widely used
4892020-04-09T19:23:53  <wumpus> if we do it should be *very* well documented first
4902020-04-09T19:24:00  <sipa> i'm not so convinced here
4912020-04-09T19:24:00  <jonasschnelli> agree with wumpus
4922020-04-09T19:24:20  <sipa> i believe it's good to "nudge" people towards PSBT, but deprecation is probably too hard a hammer for that
4932020-04-09T19:24:28  <luke-jr> [19:23:38] <jonasschnelli> can you quickly elaborate why it won't work with desc. wallets?
4942020-04-09T19:24:29  <wumpus> like make a blog post how to *old thing* in *new way*
4952020-04-09T19:24:33  <achow101> jonasschnelli: because of the separation of watchonly things, currently we can't create a wallet that has both the multisig script and keys to sign for it
4962020-04-09T19:24:36  <wumpus> yes, I agree
4972020-04-09T19:24:51  <achow101> so doing a multisig becomes a half assed psbt workflow
4982020-04-09T19:25:09  <sipa> achow101: i don't understand why we'd want descriptor wallets to not support private keys for multisig
4992020-04-09T19:25:46  <achow101> sipa: the issue is with exporting the private keys to the multisig
5002020-04-09T19:25:59  <achow101> IIRC there was contention about exporting keys that used unhardened derivation
5012020-04-09T19:26:06  <jonasschnelli> are those technical or conceptual limitations?
5022020-04-09T19:26:17  <sipa> achow101: so use hardened derivation?
5032020-04-09T19:26:22  <achow101> jonasschnelli: conceptual and current implementation limitations
5042020-04-09T19:26:51  <sipa> i understand there may be UI issues on how to make this easy
5052020-04-09T19:27:20  <sipa> but say you have a private key, even generated manually or whatever... you should be able to import a descriptor for a multisig based on it, and have that private key in the same wallet
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5072020-04-09T19:28:01  <achow101> sipa: sure
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5092020-04-09T19:28:13  <sipa> and that would work fine with signraw*, right?
5102020-04-09T19:28:17  <achow101> (this is also partly in the context of making all of the RPC tests work)
5112020-04-09T19:28:31  <achow101> sipa: yes
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5132020-04-09T19:29:35  <sipa> ok
5142020-04-09T19:30:01  <achow101> but conceptually, it feels like psbt should be a directly replacement to raw txs, so we should move to remove those eventually
5152020-04-09T19:30:31  <jonasschnelli> I could understand why the signraw commands could refuse to work for BIP44-ish descriptor wallets (due to the hardening violation),... though for manual privkey-ckd it should work
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5172020-04-09T19:30:58  <sipa> jonasschnelli: once you have all the right things in a descriptor wallet, it doesn't matter - hardened or not
5182020-04-09T19:31:14  <sipa> (is my understanding)
5192020-04-09T19:31:58  <sipa> achow101: i think my preference would be to mark signraw* as in "maintenance mode" or so, where they don't receive new features (e.g. they wouldn't support taproot signing when that gets in)
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5212020-04-09T19:32:10  <instagibbs> +1
5222020-04-09T19:32:29  <sipa> but i feel like deprecation is kind of ruthless
5232020-04-09T19:32:38  <achow101> I was thinking of an extra long deprecation cycle
5242020-04-09T19:32:40  <wumpus> yes
5252020-04-09T19:32:52  <instagibbs> imo I think the tooling is too widely used and PSBT still has an adoption curve to hit
5262020-04-09T19:32:58  <wumpus> agree
5272020-04-09T19:33:00  <achow101> like 2 releases with a note saying it's deprecated, but don't disable yet. then 2 releases with it hidden behind -deprecatedprc. then remove
5282020-04-09T19:33:02  <instagibbs> the tooling meaning *raw*
5292020-04-09T19:33:05  <wumpus> maybe in a few years bring this up again :)
5302020-04-09T19:34:08  * achow101 adds to 2022 calendar
5312020-04-09T19:34:33  <jonasschnelli> I can't completely follow why we should remove/deprecate it since in many use cases those commands work fine.
5322020-04-09T19:34:57  <jonasschnelli> (the accounting system had conceptual flaw in contrast)
5332020-04-09T19:35:02  <jonasschnelli> *flaws
5342020-04-09T19:35:08  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: what flaws?
5352020-04-09T19:35:09  <wumpus> yes
5362020-04-09T19:35:20  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i think the reasoning is "it's hard to make it work nicely with descriptors, and there is a better system already... would be easy to just get rid of it"
5372020-04-09T19:35:24  <luke-jr> the accounting system worked fine AFAIK, just nobody cared to maintain it
5382020-04-09T19:35:30  <wumpus> accounting system discussion is off topic
5392020-04-09T19:35:34  <luke-jr> true
5402020-04-09T19:36:00  <luke-jr> couldn't signrawtx be reimplemented as a wrapper around PSBT?
5412020-04-09T19:36:01  <jonasschnelli> is the plan to only support descriptor wallets in the future?
5422020-04-09T19:36:02  <jonasschnelli> with some sort of migration
5432020-04-09T19:36:14  <sipa> luke-jr: yes (and probably should), but that wouldn't solve the problem
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5452020-04-09T19:36:24  <achow101> my plan is to make descriptor wallets the default wallet type
5462020-04-09T19:36:27  <achow101> eventually
5472020-04-09T19:36:55  <jonasschnelli> this would be fine. As long as "legacy" wallets are still supported, signwith* commands shound't go away?
5482020-04-09T19:37:33  <sipa> the issue (as i understand it) is constructing a descriptor wallet that has all the same pieces of information as a current legacy wallet is unclear (where do the keys come from, how to import without reintroducing mixed wallets or watching the wrong kind of things...)
5492020-04-09T19:37:54  <achow101> sipa: yes
5502020-04-09T19:38:01  <sipa> i believe it would be nice to spend some time on actually solving that... because there is no technical reason why a descriptor wallet couldn't have that information
5512020-04-09T19:38:16  <jonasschnelli> exactly
5522020-04-09T19:38:35  <sipa> achow101: FWIW, i think your envisioned workflow (having two wallets, one with the multisig, and one with the private keys) is also pretty suboptimal
5532020-04-09T19:38:37  <jonasschnelli> we shouldn't enforce modes of use due to solvable technical imitations
5542020-04-09T19:38:42  <MarcoFalke> If the call doesn't work with descriptor wallets, it should be disabled for those wallets, not for legacy wallets as well.
5552020-04-09T19:38:46  <MarcoFalke> agree with jonasschnelli
5562020-04-09T19:38:53  <sipa> it isn't a technical limitation
5572020-04-09T19:39:02  <sipa> it's an unsolved UI question
5582020-04-09T19:39:12  <sipa> (where UI includes RPC and workflows)
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5602020-04-09T19:42:03  <achow101> i suppose it is
5612020-04-09T19:42:57  <sipa> i don't think disabling signraw* for descriptor wallets would even solve the root of the issue - users would still need a workaround to do what they could before (having two wallets, and run PSBT RPCs on both)
5622020-04-09T19:43:08  <jonasschnelli> achow101: maybe you could write a short gist/paper about the issue for help us to understand it better?
5632020-04-09T19:43:32  <sipa> can i try in 3 lines?
5642020-04-09T19:43:36  <jonasschnelli> plz
5652020-04-09T19:43:49  <achow101> jonasschnelli: sure. I should write release notes for descriptor wallets anyways and there should be section on known limitations
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5692020-04-09T19:44:53  <wumpus> +1
5702020-04-09T19:45:04  <sipa> currently you can construct a legacy wallet which has (1) a private key for one key and (2) watchonly records for multisigs involving that public key - this is crazy (because it means payments to the individual single key will be treated as incoming money, unable to separate it from the multisig funds), but it works great: you have the script information (the the multisig watchonly) and the private
5712020-04-09T19:45:10  <sipa> key for one of the keys in one wallet,...
5722020-04-09T19:45:13  <sipa> so it can do everything
5732020-04-09T19:46:58  <sipa> in descriptor wallets, you'd need to explicitly import a descriptor for the multisig, and then add a private key for one - you can't have started with a wallet that had that private key already as a single-key wallet (because then you reintroduce the mixing of singlekey/multisig funds), and you can't export that private key from another wallet (because we don't want export of non-hardened keys)....
5742020-04-09T19:47:04  <sipa> so where does it come from?
5752020-04-09T19:47:31  <sipa> i think the only question is a UX one around construction of such wallets
5762020-04-09T19:47:55  <sipa> </fin>
5772020-04-09T19:48:22  <jonasschnelli> I see. So one would need a watch-only-ms desc wallet and a single-key desc wallet for signing the PSBT (or whatever)
5782020-04-09T19:48:50  <achow101> yes
5792020-04-09T19:48:59  <achow101> and with both psbt and raw tx, the workflow is the same
5802020-04-09T19:48:59  <sipa> right, that would work - and the PSBT would carry the script information from the watch-only-ms wallet to the signing-key wallet
5812020-04-09T19:49:04  <instagibbs> user stories may help cover cases, I tend to only think about MY use case
5822020-04-09T19:49:18  <jonasschnelli> Which the signraw commands could construct in the background (assume providing all the infos)?
5832020-04-09T19:49:21  <luke-jr> aren't the multisig funds classified as watchonly?
5842020-04-09T19:49:53  <sipa> luke-jr: right, fair - that's the reason watchonly exists
5852020-04-09T19:49:56  <achow101> you go to the watch-only-ms wallet with a psbt or rawtx, it adds the scripts. then you go to the single-key wallet and sign it. it's the same workflow, but psbt is better suited for carrying this data
5862020-04-09T19:50:14  <sipa> but it's ridiculous that you currently can't do multisig stuff without also having payments to individual keys as balance in your wallet
5872020-04-09T19:50:35  <jonasschnelli> sipa: though that is rarely used, right?
5882020-04-09T19:50:45  <sipa> jonasschnelli: "used" ?
5892020-04-09T19:50:47  <sipa> it's an attack
5902020-04-09T19:51:10  <sipa> you can send funds to a individual key in a multisig, and the user may think it's paid to the multisig
5912020-04-09T19:51:16  <luke-jr> so we need a way to have can-sign non-ismine descriptors
5922020-04-09T19:51:22  <jonasschnelli> Kida. Yes. I see. Agree that it is a flaw/ridiculous
5932020-04-09T19:51:31  <sipa> luke-jr: descriptor wallets already do that
5942020-04-09T19:51:35  <achow101> luke-jr: we already do that. it's a question of the scripts
5952020-04-09T19:51:58  <sipa> we just need a good way to import a multisig descriptor + individual key into a descriptor wallet
5962020-04-09T19:51:59  <instagibbs> IsMine implementation in descriptor is a relative beauty :P
5972020-04-09T19:52:25  <sipa> if that works, signraw* and PSBT* will function just as before
5982020-04-09T19:52:34  <sipa> if that doesn't work, it's going to be shitty to use for both
5992020-04-09T19:52:39  <jonasschnelli> Now I see why it's a UX issue. We have set our own limitations which IMO could be worked around by creating the right structures on the fly for the signraw* commands when using desc.-wallets
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6012020-04-09T19:53:10  <instagibbs> achow101, if you do this you're also going to have to get rid of the "private keys disabled" hack we've been using
6022020-04-09T19:53:25  <instagibbs> to detect if we want to do PSBT stuff or try to sign the transaction
6032020-04-09T19:54:19  <achow101> instagibbs: I don't think so. but I'll experiment
6042020-04-09T19:54:40  <achow101> jonasschnelli: which "right structures"
6052020-04-09T19:54:43  <instagibbs> achow101, well, if there exists a private key, it will try to sign and fail unexpectedly, I think, but you can test yes :)
6062020-04-09T19:56:04  <jeremyrubin> BTW: if you have thoughts on BIP-119 Next Steps please submit them in this survey; want to collect feedback from everyone https://forms.gle/rT3v4JjHbdn3RMnL6
6072020-04-09T19:57:03  <instagibbs> The wallet should just probably know explicitly that it should try to auto-sign or return a PSBT, but that's yet another UX q.
6082020-04-09T19:57:37  <wumpus> 3 minutes to go
6092020-04-09T19:57:57  <jonasschnelli> achow101: maybe I get it wrong. But if someone invokes a signraw, depending on the input, you could create either a watch-only-ms wallet or a single-privkey wallet in the background and use the PSBT workflow
6102020-04-09T19:58:36  <achow101> but where does the multisig script come from?
6112020-04-09T19:59:01  <sipa> jonasschnelli: the question is not about signraw* or PSBT*; the question is constructing a wallet that has the right information
6122020-04-09T19:59:08  <achow101> it's not hard to wrap signrawtx around psbts so it uses psbt internally. but it just doesn't have all of the data there
6132020-04-09T19:59:24  <luke-jr> descriptor wallets can or can't have multiple descriptors?
6142020-04-09T19:59:36  <jonasschnelli> provide it manually or provide it via a second wallet
6152020-04-09T19:59:55  <sipa> luke-jr: can; change and payments in general will come from distinct descriptors
6162020-04-09T20:00:12  <instagibbs> luke-jr, you can import any number of descriptors, there are 6 "Active" ones, aka keypool, by default
6172020-04-09T20:00:30  <achow101> luke-jr: can, but having a descriptor wallet contain both multisig and single key descriptors goes back to the mixed watchonly wallet thing
6182020-04-09T20:00:39  <instagibbs> legacy/p2sh-segwit/bech32 x internal/external
6192020-04-09T20:00:49  <luke-jr> achow101: not if you flag the single-keys descriptor as non-ismine?
6202020-04-09T20:00:54  <wumpus> sorry, time to wrap up the meeting
6212020-04-09T20:00:56  <achow101> jonasschnelli: yes, and that's the shitty ux sipa was talking about
6222020-04-09T20:01:06  <wumpus> #endmeeting
6232020-04-09T20:01:06  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr  9 20:01:06 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
6242020-04-09T20:01:06  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-09-19.00.html
6252020-04-09T20:01:06  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-09-19.00.txt
6262020-04-09T20:01:06  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-04-09-19.00.log.html
6272020-04-09T20:01:24  <instagibbs> luke-jr, what you need is a way to import a key and say "yeah it's not an address", right
6282020-04-09T20:01:38  <instagibbs> that's what people were discussing
6292020-04-09T20:01:58  <sipa> instagibbs: and also how do you then come up with that key
6302020-04-09T20:02:11  <luke-jr> [19:51:16] <luke-jr> so we need a way to have can-sign non-ismine descriptors [19:51:31] <sipa> luke-jr: descriptor wallets already do that
6312020-04-09T20:02:12  <luke-jr> :/
6322020-04-09T20:02:31  <sipa> luke-jr: the internals can do this fine
6332020-04-09T20:02:35  <sipa> the question is UX
6342020-04-09T20:02:40  <achow101> luke-jr: given a psbt with the redeemScript, a descriptor wallet without the multisig can sign the psbt
6352020-04-09T20:02:48  <instagibbs> if you have a privkey, and it can sign something, it does. So single-key desc wallet can sign a multisig
6362020-04-09T20:02:55  <instagibbs> but that's a 2 wallet solution
6372020-04-09T20:03:11  <sipa> but it there shouldn't need to be any single-key desc wallet whatsoever
6382020-04-09T20:03:19  <instagibbs> right
6392020-04-09T20:03:21  <sipa> there should just be one multisig wallet with one of the keys
6402020-04-09T20:03:22  <instagibbs> "just a key"
6412020-04-09T20:03:28  <luke-jr> achow101: descriptor wallet w/ multisig descriptors ismine + singlekey descriptors non-ismine?
6422020-04-09T20:03:37  <jonasschnelli> I think that -> <sipa> there should just be one multisig wallet with one of the keys
6432020-04-09T20:03:43  <achow101> luke-jr: can't do that
6442020-04-09T20:03:47  <luke-jr> why not?
6452020-04-09T20:03:57  <sipa> luke-jr: my point is that's even a stretch; there shouldn't be a singlekey descriptor at all
6462020-04-09T20:04:09  <sipa> a descriptor is a way to encode information about scriptPubKeys
6472020-04-09T20:04:14  <sipa> there is no interesting scriptPubKey here
6482020-04-09T20:04:25  <jnewbery> sipa: we didn't get to it in the meeting, but is the future of asmap to fork https://github.com/sipa/asmap to https://github.com/bitcoin-core/asmap ?
6492020-04-09T20:04:35  <sipa> there should just be a key in the wallet, without a descriptor for the single-key version of that key
6502020-04-09T20:05:06  <luke-jr> sipa: so just multisig descriptor + private seed
6512020-04-09T20:05:13  <sipa> luke-jr: right, something like that
6522020-04-09T20:05:28  <instagibbs> "just"
6532020-04-09T20:05:29  <instagibbs> ;P
6542020-04-09T20:05:52  <sipa> jnewbery: #18573 would make my asmap repo obsolete
6552020-04-09T20:05:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18573 | [RFC] bitcoin-asmap utility by sipa · Pull Request #18573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6562020-04-09T20:06:27  <sipa> we still need infrastructure for determining the mappings we want, which gleb has been working on
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6792020-04-09T22:21:59  <achow101> jonasschnelli: https://gist.github.com/achow101/94d889715afd49181f8efdca1f9faa25 here's a writeup of some of the issues
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6822020-04-09T22:27:45  <sipa> achow101: i think exporting descriptors (without private keys) should always be fine
6832020-04-09T22:28:31  <achow101> sipa: yes, but it's only really useful if unhardened derivation is being used
6842020-04-09T22:28:40  <sipa> agree
6852020-04-09T22:29:18  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
6862020-04-09T22:29:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #18578: gui: Fix itemWalletAddress leak when not tree mode (master...2020-fix-coincontroldialog-leak) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18578
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6882020-04-09T22:29:25  <achow101> so one question is how to support the two use cases in the same wallet
6892020-04-09T22:31:05  <sipa> i *think* that exporting descriptors including private keys is also fine, as it doesn't risk exporting something that leaks the entire wallet while the user thinks it's just a single key (as in: it'll always leak the entire thing)
6902020-04-09T22:31:45  <sipa> but it shouldn't be possible to export derived private keys (except maybe if they're hardened... unsure)
6912020-04-09T22:32:28  <achow101> yes
6922020-04-09T22:33:10  <achow101> but exporting derived keys is necessary for the usual multisig workflow
6932020-04-09T22:33:36  <achow101> otherwise all you can do are ranged multisigs when maybe you just want a one time thing
6942020-04-09T22:34:35  <sipa> i feel that in that case you should also have started from just a single key, rather than an xpub
6952020-04-09T22:34:46  <sipa> i see the complication, but i'm not sure how important it is
6962020-04-09T22:34:56  <achow101> but how would you have started from just a single key?
6972020-04-09T22:35:03  <sipa> that's a great question :p
6982020-04-09T22:41:07  <sipa> it would be great if a ranged multisig setup already just worked
6992020-04-09T22:43:07  <sipa> say there was an RPC generatexpub which would generate an xprv, and import the private key, but not watch anything, and then return the xpub
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7012020-04-09T22:45:19  <achow101> maybe if used a wallet global SigningProvider? so keys aren't associated with the scripts directly
7022020-04-09T22:45:37  <sipa> yeah, i think that makes sense
7032020-04-09T22:46:30  <achow101> ugh, rewriting it all again :(
7042020-04-09T22:47:32  <achow101> i'm not sure that's necessarily useful though
7052020-04-09T22:48:03  <sipa> you'd still need to be able to generate derived private keys
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7082020-04-09T22:51:27  <sipa> alternatively, i think it'd be fine if there was just a way to import descriptors with some public and some private keys... without worrying how someone would obtain those for now
7092020-04-09T22:52:03  <achow101> sipa: yes, but worrying about how someone would obtain those is important
7102020-04-09T22:52:10  <sipa> oh absolutely
7112020-04-09T22:52:37  <sipa> but as a first step... that'd be great already
7122020-04-09T22:59:30  <sipa> fanquake: what is link-time garbage collection?
7132020-04-09T23:00:31  <fanquake> sipa: basically just the use of --gc-sections.
7142020-04-09T23:01:08  <fanquake> Curious, was there anything in particular that prompted you to test building like that?
7152020-04-09T23:06:11  <sipa> fanquake: seeing the size of bitcoin-asmap in #18573
7162020-04-09T23:06:12  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18573 | [RFC] bitcoin-asmap utility by sipa · Pull Request #18573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
7172020-04-09T23:06:48  <sipa> it's around 600 kB, nothing too terrible... but with gc sections etc, it's 100 kB
7182020-04-09T23:07:12  <sipa> i had always assumed we already enabled those options
7192020-04-09T23:07:26  <sipa> so i went to check if it would benefit our existing binaries as well
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7242020-04-09T23:42:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/405713d00fb4...d486991aa59d
7252020-04-09T23:42:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5ca90f8 fanquake: scripts: add MACHO lazy bindings check to security-check.py
7262020-04-09T23:42:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d486991 fanquake: Merge #18295: scripts: add MACHO lazy bindings check to security-check.py
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7292020-04-09T23:43:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18295: scripts: add MACHO lazy bindings check to security-check.py (master...does_noone_care_about_MH_BINDATLOAD_anymore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18295
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