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 722020-07-17T05:53:47  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c57dc566b060...19aaf7945e89
 732020-07-17T05:53:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cb31ee0 gzhao408: [test] feefilter during and after IBD
 742020-07-17T05:53:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 19aaf79 MarcoFalke: Merge #19423: test: add functional test for txrelay during and after IBD
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 772020-07-17T05:54:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19423: test: add functional test for txrelay during and after IBD (master...ibd-txrelay-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19423
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 842020-07-17T06:25:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/19aaf7945e89...c04485850e72
 852020-07-17T06:25:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6457361 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Fix QFileDialog for static builds
 862020-07-17T06:25:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c044858 fanquake: Merge #19536: qt, build: Fix QFileDialog for static builds
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 892020-07-17T06:26:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19536: qt, build: Fix QFileDialog for static builds (master...200716-fqd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19536
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1282020-07-17T09:50:54  <jonatack> wumpus: thanks! (for 18044)
1292020-07-17T09:51:22  <jonatack> wumpus: your stats script that goes through getpeerinfo and categorizes them by in/out × ipv4/ipv6/tor would be handy for me right now
1302020-07-17T09:51:45  <jonatack> wumpus: any chance you could link me to it?
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1322020-07-17T09:53:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #19542: Revert "refactor: replace CConnman pointers by references in net_processing.cpp" (master...2020_07_revert_19174) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19542
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1392020-07-17T10:02:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #19465: Use LevelDB paranoid_checks option unconditionally (master...200708-ldb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19465
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1592020-07-17T11:57:37  <wumpus> jonatack: sure, let me see
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1612020-07-17T12:02:06  <wumpus> jonatack: https://gist.github.com/laanwj/5d77c8d0ed4b3ca3ed009727fe6c2f67
1622020-07-17T12:06:18  <wumpus> (it makes some assumptions that cannot be stated in general, like "every connection that comes from 127.0.0.1 comes from tor")
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1642020-07-17T12:09:14  <wumpus> also tor should be 'onion' in the new command line option wording
1652020-07-17T12:09:23  <jonatack> wumpus: thanks! yes, i've been wondering what is the best criteria for tor, was thinking "addrlocal contains .onion"
1662020-07-17T12:10:39  <wumpus> that's an interesting criterion; on one hand i think that works? on the other, it relies fully on what the peer sends for your local address, not the actual network circumstances
1672020-07-17T12:14:18  <jonatack> I'm looking at how to make CConnman::AttemptToEvictConnection() Tor-aware
1682020-07-17T12:15:06  <jonatack> so how to know which inbounds are onion conns
1692020-07-17T12:15:08  <wumpus> the only real solution to this would be #8973
1702020-07-17T12:15:09  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8973 | Incoming tor connections should use alternative port · Issue #8973 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1712020-07-17T12:15:31  <wumpus> incoming tor connections to use an alternative, local-only port or even better, a UNIX socket to connect
1722020-07-17T12:16:47  <wumpus> jonatack: but until that i guess some kind of 'connects to 127.0.0.1 AND has .onion in addrlocal' heuristic works fine
1732020-07-17T12:17:14  <wumpus> i do think that for eviction, only using 'what addrlocal it sends' is too easy to manipulate
1742020-07-17T12:17:16  <jonatack> super helpful -- i'll see what i can do with that
1752020-07-17T12:18:46  <jonatack> would a mix of 'connects to 127.0.0.1 AND has .onion in addrlocal' be manipulable?
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1772020-07-17T12:21:12  <jonatack> idea being to specifically protect some onions so they aren't penalised for higher minping / lower uptime vis-a-vis clearnet peers
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1792020-07-17T12:24:30  <jnewbery> wumpus: can you wait for cfields to review before merging 19542 please?
1802020-07-17T12:26:39  <cfields> I was just commenting there... will review in detail today. I suspect I was wrong with the concept nack anyway...
1812020-07-17T12:26:56  <cfields> it's not a big deal, though.
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1832020-07-17T12:28:02  <jnewbery> cfields: thanks!
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1852020-07-17T12:30:17  <cfields> np, these things happen :)
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1872020-07-17T12:33:06  <wumpus> yes, though, "this causes a few PRs to need to be rebased" was another reason to be cautious about merging it in the first place
1882020-07-17T12:34:32  <wumpus> I think we should avoid doing these kind of mass data type changes unless there is a really good rationale and people agree about doing it
1892020-07-17T12:34:50  <wumpus> "increases code quality" is kind of subjective
1902020-07-17T12:38:21  <wumpus> if it's uncontroversial and doesn't impact other people's work, okay, but not sure about this
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1932020-07-17T12:48:19  <jnewbery> wumpus: yes, agree. When I wrote my ACK I originally had a comment about not merging immediately because of conflicts, but I deleted that because I didn't want to tell the maintainers how to do their job
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2022020-07-17T13:02:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.20: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f61398a978ba...8b4093749312
2032020-07-17T13:02:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 8b40937 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Fix QFileDialog for static builds
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2242020-07-17T13:39:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to 0.20: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8b4093749312...cac7a9809a3d
2252020-07-17T13:39:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 cd34ff5 Wladimir J. van der Laan: build: Bump version to 0.20.1rc1
2262020-07-17T13:39:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 5e21c55 Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Regenerate man pages for 0.20.1rc1
2272020-07-17T13:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 cac7a98 Wladimir J. van der Laan: qt: Translation update for 0.20.1rc1
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2312020-07-17T13:42:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed tag v0.20.1rc1: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/v0.20.1rc1
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2332020-07-17T13:42:42  <wumpus> ^^
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2352020-07-17T13:46:23  <hebasto> \o/
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2372020-07-17T13:49:52  <instagibbs> huzzah
2382020-07-17T13:49:56  <jonatack> time to git yer gitian on
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2512020-07-17T14:46:05  <MarcoFalke> when merging I do check all conflicts for reviews, and in this case, all of the conflicts had either, no review, didn't compile, or didn't pass the test suite. So in all cases a rebase or force push wouldn't have been harmful or was needed anyway.
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2582020-07-17T15:05:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c04485850e72...fd59670642f5
2592020-07-17T15:05:08  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9a2f126 Hennadii Stepanov: ci: Add tsan suppression for race in DatabaseBatch
2602020-07-17T15:05:08  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0cdf2a7 Russell Yanofsky: ci: add tsan debug symbols option
2612020-07-17T15:05:09  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fd59670 MarcoFalke: Merge #19538: ci: Add tsan suppression for race in DatabaseBatch
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2642020-07-17T15:05:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19538: ci: Add tsan suppression for race in DatabaseBatch (master...200716-tsan-db) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19538
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3122020-07-17T16:43:31  <achow101> hebasto: I'm seeing a mismatch on your osx build
3132020-07-17T16:44:08  <achow101> - 6e0b29839f86c60bdb4e557ef85339075738d61c6feda333a9c23056f8c4bc32  bitcoin-0.20.1rc1-osx-unsigned.tar.gz
3142020-07-17T16:44:08  <achow101> + 5c1f306192674c607bf44dad4a864e99fcfbef262934d19f93ea5af710595096  bitcoin-0.20.1rc1-osx-unsigned.tar.gz
3152020-07-17T16:46:02  <hebasto> due to the OS upgrade the LXC was also upgraded from 3.0.3 to 4.0.2 -- probably this is an issue. Investigating...
3162020-07-17T16:47:50  <achow101> can you upload the tarfile somewhere?
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3202020-07-17T16:54:16  <hebasto> achow101: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FUav60VVO1mBjvyCteRO1IFfcYUTyAbP/view?usp=sharing
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3232020-07-17T16:56:41  <hebasto> achow101: the second run produced the same hashes for macOS files
3242020-07-17T16:58:23  <achow101> the tarfile is actually the one that gets used in signing. it can be found in gitian-builder/inputs
3252020-07-17T16:58:33  <achow101> it's not actually one of the output files
3262020-07-17T16:58:56  <hebasto> oops, reupload now
3272020-07-17T17:00:46  <hebasto> achow101: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19E2gTo4EJFdnG8iaMzcPmULDJbGd_t5_/view?usp=sharing
3282020-07-17T17:00:51  <hebasto> this one?
3292020-07-17T17:01:26  <achow101> yes
3302020-07-17T17:03:47  <hebasto> achow101: SDK also are different
3312020-07-17T17:05:29  <hebasto> mine is https://bitcoincore.org/depends-sources/sdks/MacOSX10.14.sdk.tar.gz
3322020-07-17T17:05:51  <achow101> I think it's expected that the sdk is different due to its construction
3332020-07-17T17:06:12  <achow101> the difference here is in the genisoimage file in the tarball
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3352020-07-17T17:06:41  <achow101> iirc that's something from the depends build
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3432020-07-17T17:13:40  <achow101> maybe clean the cache and rebuild?
3442020-07-17T17:13:43  <hebasto> achow101 did you re-build depends or used cached ones?
3452020-07-17T17:14:14  <hebasto> oh, the same idea :)
3462020-07-17T17:14:39  <achow101> i'm doing a rebuild with a clean cache
3472020-07-17T17:14:40  <hebasto> I built from scratch
3482020-07-17T17:16:56  <MarcoFalke> Current asserts are: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.20.1rc1-osx-unsigned/hebasto/bitcoin-core-osx-0.20-build.assert and https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.20.1rc1-osx-unsigned/emzy/bitcoin-core-osx-0.20-build.assert  and  https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.20.1rc1-osx-unsigned/achow101/bitcoin-core-osx-0.20-build.assert
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3502020-07-17T17:19:31  <MarcoFalke> yeah, looks like the caches are different
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3522020-07-17T17:20:17  <MarcoFalke> oh that makes sense
3532020-07-17T17:20:23  <MarcoFalke> the qt cache is obviously invalid
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3562020-07-17T17:21:57  <MarcoFalke> oh wait, no. depends should detect when a package description changes
3572020-07-17T17:22:39  <midnight> dangit. we're using he new Mac SDK tarball now- but it won't let an end-user download the necessary files without setting up 2FA; except part of 2FA is a trusted phone number which I haven't been convinced yet is safe from simjacking. I'm not entirely sure that requiring a user to enable simjacking on their account is tenable for gitian builders concerned about their account security.
3582020-07-17T17:24:12  <MarcoFalke> no idea what's going on. Needs more diffoscope I guess
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3602020-07-17T17:25:48  <provoostenator> midnight: that's annoying. I don't understand why Apple insists on putting these files behind a registration wall.
3612020-07-17T17:25:50  <achow101> diffoscope of genisoimage https://0bin.net/paste/lt+TgdvNOBuzc2if#kHgLgivqTORFiOANKNMYWwOK0IHFkPSqIP-O1WVQFAc
3622020-07-17T17:26:05  <achow101> everything else in the tarball matches
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3642020-07-17T17:27:32  <midnight> :-(
3652020-07-17T17:28:13  <hebasto> achow101: what does mean that diff?
3662020-07-17T17:28:39  <achow101> it's the diff between the two genisoimage binaries
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3682020-07-17T17:29:15  <hebasto> I mean what is the root of that diff?
3692020-07-17T17:29:31  <achow101> it looks like the difference between the readelf outputs, so probably symbol differences?
3702020-07-17T17:29:57  <achow101> i'm not sure
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3722020-07-17T17:33:13  <achow101> ok.. I got the same result after cleaning the cache
3732020-07-17T17:33:17  <achow101> *same result as hebasto
3742020-07-17T17:34:20  <hebasto> hmm, why cache re-build was not triggered?
3752020-07-17T17:34:39  <achow101> sometimes it happens
3762020-07-17T17:35:07  <achow101> it may also be that one of the build tools changed and not the dependency itself
3772020-07-17T17:35:17  <achow101> and so the output changed as well
3782020-07-17T17:35:21  <midnight> Looks like the only real answer is to buy (as anonymously as possible) an SMS-aware new number and then..  **never tell anybody what it is**.. so appleid's 2fa potentially vuln to simjacking (still) via recovery sms. hrm.
3792020-07-17T17:37:15  <achow101> I think emzy will need to rebuild then as he had the same result I did
3802020-07-17T17:37:56  <achow101> midnight: I think there's a prebuilt sdk somewhere if you don't want to construct it yourself
3812020-07-17T17:38:34  <hebasto> midnight:  https://bitcoincore.org/depends-sources/sdks/MacOSX10.14.sdk.tar.gz
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3842020-07-17T17:49:05  <midnight> I saw that. I'm waffling between setting up a pin-protected additional anti-porting number and using the one you guys are using. I'd prefer to maintain independent binary builds as much as possible, jut one of those habits I have like bothering people for additional publishing evidence re: their gitian key. :)
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3882020-07-17T17:50:25  <midnight> (also exercises the SDK construction instructions while I'm at it)
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3972020-07-17T18:28:44  <emzy> achow101: how did you fixed it?
3982020-07-17T18:29:05  <achow101> emzy: deleted gitian-builder/cache and rebuilt
3992020-07-17T18:30:35  <emzy> achow101: ok. I will do that.
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4072020-07-17T19:00:08  <provoostenator> wallet meeting?
4082020-07-17T19:00:14  <meshcollider> #startmeeting
4092020-07-17T19:00:14  <lightningbot> Meeting started Fri Jul 17 19:00:14 2020 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
4102020-07-17T19:00:14  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
4112020-07-17T19:00:17  <achow101> hi
4122020-07-17T19:00:18  <meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
4132020-07-17T19:00:18  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
4142020-07-17T19:00:18  <provoostenator> hi
4152020-07-17T19:00:49  <emzy> hi
4162020-07-17T19:00:56  <meshcollider> Any topic suggestions?
4172020-07-17T19:01:19  <meshcollider> I don't remember anything being suggested during the weeks
4182020-07-17T19:02:39  <achow101> 2020-06-19.log:16:10 < bsm117532> #proposedwalletmeetingtopic descriptor specification for watch-only wallets, and repeated payments without address use via BIP32 paths
4192020-07-17T19:03:02  <meshcollider> Is bsm117532 around?
4202020-07-17T19:04:04  <meshcollider> I guess not
4212020-07-17T19:04:36  <achow101> hmm, that was from a while ago
4222020-07-17T19:04:44  <achow101> did we skip a meeting?
4232020-07-17T19:05:12  <meshcollider> No, but we may have missed the topic?
4242020-07-17T19:05:35  <achow101> probably
4252020-07-17T19:05:37  <meshcollider> achow101: do you want to talk a bit about current status of SQLite replacement
4262020-07-17T19:05:43  <achow101> ok
4272020-07-17T19:06:15  <meshcollider> And provoostenator maybe want to talk about your current goals? Maybe current state of hardware wallet stuff?
4282020-07-17T19:06:30  <provoostenator> Sure, but not much changed.
4292020-07-17T19:06:33  <achow101> #19334 is nominally the last step before the sqlite PR (#19077) is ready
4302020-07-17T19:06:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19334 | wallet: Introduce WalletDatabase abstract class by achow101 · Pull Request #19334 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4312020-07-17T19:06:38  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19077 | wallet: Add sqlite as an alternative wallet database and use it for new descriptor wallets by achow101 · Pull Request #19077 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4322020-07-17T19:06:53  <provoostenator> I'd like some feedback on #16378 now that most of its prerequisites are merged.
4332020-07-17T19:06:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16378 | The ultimate send RPC by Sjors · Pull Request #16378 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4342020-07-17T19:06:55  <achow101> but I'd like to do #19335 and #19102 first
4352020-07-17T19:06:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19335 | wallet: Cleanup and separate BerkeleyDatabase and BerkeleyBatch by achow101 · Pull Request #19335 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4362020-07-17T19:06:59  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19102 | wallet: Introduce and use DummyDatabase instead of dummy BerkeleyDatabase by achow101 · Pull Request #19102 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4372020-07-17T19:07:07  <achow101> both of those need 19334
4382020-07-17T19:07:39  <provoostenator> Still waiting for more blessings (and re-reviews) of #15382
4392020-07-17T19:07:42  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15382 | util: add RunCommandParseJSON by Sjors · Pull Request #15382 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4402020-07-17T19:08:32  <meshcollider> Ah yes!
4412020-07-17T19:08:43  <meshcollider> I almost forgot about that one
4422020-07-17T19:08:51  <provoostenator> I see it needs _another_ rebase...
4432020-07-17T19:09:55  <meshcollider> Do either of the new projects need updating with new PRs btw?
4442020-07-17T19:10:10  <provoostenator> Oh and I need to work something out with AppVeyor :-)
4452020-07-17T19:10:30  <phantomcircuit> i dont really see the purpose of sqlite as a backend unless the database interface is changed to actively query the database when you need things
4462020-07-17T19:10:43  <phantomcircuit> for sure sqlite is better than bdb, but are we really going to drop bdb support?
4472020-07-17T19:10:57  <provoostenator> meshcollider: the merged stuff can go: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/15
4482020-07-17T19:11:03  <achow101> meshcollider: 19334 and 19335 need to be added
4492020-07-17T19:11:03  <jonatack> hi
4502020-07-17T19:11:27  <achow101> phantomcircuit: the goal is to actively query the database at some point
4512020-07-17T19:11:28  <provoostenator> phantomcircuit: there's some earlier (IRC) discussion about this, which should probably be linked from that PR
4522020-07-17T19:11:37  <achow101> and maybe use the relational stuff too
4532020-07-17T19:12:06  <achow101> I would like to drop bdb eventually
4542020-07-17T19:12:14  <phantomcircuit> achow101, sure, but that's going to require significant changes to the way the wallet works, also im not sure how useful that's really going to be, even for huge wallets
4552020-07-17T19:12:35  <sipa> i don't think the actual db stuff is useful
4562020-07-17T19:12:36  <sipa> for us
4572020-07-17T19:12:52  <achow101> phantomcircuit: my next major project is going to be significant changes to how transactions and stored and loaded (i.e. not loading every single tx into memory)
4582020-07-17T19:12:56  <sipa> but i think sqlite is just the most well-tested storage layer thete is
4592020-07-17T19:13:29  <sipa> exactly designed for the sort of app-level compatibility requirements we have
4602020-07-17T19:13:47  <phantomcircuit> achow101, you need to have all of the script pubkeys to quickly scan a block, is it really going to reduce memory usage that much to avoid loading the entire transaction?
4612020-07-17T19:14:01  <achow101> phantomcircuit: transactions are big, keys are small
4622020-07-17T19:14:23  <phantomcircuit> sipa, sure and i agree that sqlite is *better* than bdb, but we're gonna end up supporting both forever and that seems kind of sad to me
4632020-07-17T19:14:34  <achow101> rescans are usually a one time thing, not something people do routinely
4642020-07-17T19:14:48  <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'd day that in maybe 2-3 years the bdb support can move to some comversion tool
4652020-07-17T19:15:19  <phantomcircuit> achow101, you need the script pubkeys to scan a block as they come in
4662020-07-17T19:15:36  <meshcollider> Yeah we talked about that before, eventually it should be okay
4672020-07-17T19:15:44  <phantomcircuit> if you're reloading those from the database every time you see a new block, you're gonna have a bad time (tm)
4682020-07-17T19:16:27  <achow101> phantomcircuit: sure. for now, everything is still being loaded into memory. I would like to move the less used stuff like old txs, address book data, etc. to be loaded as needed
4692020-07-17T19:16:59  <meshcollider> This also reminds me of #16910
4702020-07-17T19:17:00  <achow101> you don't need to load that tx where every output has already been spent. we don't need those unless someone is digging through their history, in which case we can fetch it. and that doesn't really need to be performant
4712020-07-17T19:17:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16910 | wallet: reduce loading time by using unordered maps by achow101 · Pull Request #16910 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4722020-07-17T19:17:12  <meshcollider> We should try and get that in
4732020-07-17T19:17:14  <phantomcircuit> sure, but it seems like that work, which is certainly more annoying to do, should be done before adding another database format
4742020-07-17T19:17:33  <sipa> phantomcircuit: seems orthogonal to me
4752020-07-17T19:17:54  <achow101> I don't see how they're related
4762020-07-17T19:18:15  <achow101> now seems to be a good-ish time to introduce sqlite wallets for descriptor wallets only because that's a new thing for storage
4772020-07-17T19:18:16  <meshcollider> Plus the database work has already been done so it's kinda too late to say that ;)
4782020-07-17T19:19:41  <phantomcircuit> what's the point of another database unless you can leverage that it's a relational database?
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4802020-07-17T19:20:12  <achow101> well the point is to get away from bdb
4812020-07-17T19:20:17  <achow101> at least initially
4822020-07-17T19:20:28  <sipa> phantomcircuit: no crazy flushing all the time to harness bdb in not needing active maintenance
4832020-07-17T19:20:35  <sipa> phantomcircuit: not needing db environments
4842020-07-17T19:20:48  <sipa> not needing a whole directory per wallet
4852020-07-17T19:21:00  <sipa> not relying on 10 year old software
4862020-07-17T19:23:02  <achow101> meshcollider: I think 18971 can be moved to "Design" in the sqlite project
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4902020-07-17T19:23:55  <meshcollider> achow101: done
4912020-07-17T19:24:20  <meshcollider> sipa: is there any wallet relevant discussion re taproot at this stage?
4922020-07-17T19:24:41  <meshcollider> I've vaguely seen a lot more activity around it on twitter
4932020-07-17T19:25:05  <achow101> can we support taproot for descriptor wallets only?
4942020-07-17T19:25:12  <sipa> achow101: yes please
4952020-07-17T19:25:28  <sipa> meshcollider: not at this stage, i think
4962020-07-17T19:25:32  <provoostenator> Whaha, did anyone seriously think of adding taproot to legacy wallets?
4972020-07-17T19:25:32  <achow101> it would just mean the only waallet changes are descriptor changes
4982020-07-17T19:25:33  <achow101> I think
4992020-07-17T19:26:02  <provoostenator> We're still cleaning up the complexity from adding SegWit to that...
5002020-07-17T19:26:07  <sipa> things like musig signing integration may be a bit more involved, as it requires stateful signers
5012020-07-17T19:26:20  <sipa> but even that doesn't need to be supported in a very initial versiin
5022020-07-17T19:26:20  <provoostenator> Musig would be real cool
5032020-07-17T19:26:31  <sipa> it'll be a lot easier with musig2 ;)
5042020-07-17T19:27:32  <meshcollider> What's musig2?
5052020-07-17T19:29:07  <sipa> an improved version that is as of yet unpublished, but only needs 2 rounds, and supports transparent nesting (so if you have musig-in-musig you don't need to reveal to your cosigners that you in fact consist of multiple signers yourself)
5062020-07-17T19:30:36  <meshcollider> Ooh that sounds very nice
5072020-07-17T19:31:45  <meshcollider> With the same security assumptions as musig?
5082020-07-17T19:31:55  <sipa> mostly
5092020-07-17T19:33:07  <meshcollider> Cool, I like forward to seeing it
5102020-07-17T19:33:09  <sipa> we should have more to show soon (real_or_random and nickler really)
5112020-07-17T19:33:23  <meshcollider> Any other topics?
5122020-07-17T19:34:18  <meshcollider> #endmeeting
5132020-07-17T19:34:18  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri Jul 17 19:34:18 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
5142020-07-17T19:34:18  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-17-19.00.html
5152020-07-17T19:34:18  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-17-19.00.txt
5162020-07-17T19:34:18  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-17-19.00.log.html
5172020-07-17T19:36:30  <provoostenator> sipa: infinite nesting?
5182020-07-17T19:37:42  <sipa> provoostenator: yes
5192020-07-17T19:38:31  <provoostenator> Threshold too?
5202020-07-17T19:39:58  <sipa> it probably helps as a basis for threshold schemes too, but i don't think there is much actual work on that
5212020-07-17T19:48:08  <phantomcircuit> sipa, yes i can see why sqlite is better than bdb, but without completely dropping support i dont see how you get any of the advantages
5222020-07-17T19:48:51  <sipa> phantomcircuit: i think all of those advantages matter to everyone who uses it
5232020-07-17T19:49:18  <sipa> the only thing that we don't get is dropping the complexity and dependency on bdb, which unfortunately needs to wait
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5252020-07-17T19:56:59  <achow101> phantomcircuit: at the very least, all of the bdb nonsense is shoved into its own self contained corner
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5312020-07-17T20:11:11  <bsm117532> Sorry, missed that ping re: wallet descriptors.
5322020-07-17T20:11:46  <bsm117532> Is anyone else interested in this idea? (Basically, making usable xpubs for watch-only wallets)
5332020-07-17T20:12:10  <sipa> that's the point of descriptors
5342020-07-17T20:12:40  <bsm117532> I know. I'm basically talking about slightly formalizing a descriptor specification and recommending its usage in this way.
5352020-07-17T20:12:54  <bsm117532> Has anyone besides bitcoind implemented descriptors?
5362020-07-17T20:14:15  <sipa> i'm hesitant about formalizing descriptors, as i expect there is still a lot of unexplored terrain there
5372020-07-17T20:14:45  <sipa> and aiming for compatibility at this point may set unreasonable expectations and/or complicate improvements
5382020-07-17T20:15:09  <sipa> especially with miniscript extending the language significantly
5392020-07-17T20:15:11  <bsm117532> Well then let's explore it. ;-)
5402020-07-17T20:15:23  <bsm117532> What would you want to see @sipa?
5412020-07-17T20:15:28  <sipa> ?
5422020-07-17T20:16:04  <sipa> i just mean we'll likely encounter more use cases and think "oh i wish this could have made it into the descriptors spec"
5432020-07-17T20:16:17  <sipa> so i'd rather have it develop organically for a while
5442020-07-17T20:16:56  <achow101> we might need some kind of versioning then
5452020-07-17T20:17:39  <achow101> but even just adding new expressions just means that older software throws an error saying it doesn't recognize the descriptor
5462020-07-17T20:17:54  <sipa> my thinking is that a first step of standardization is having some repository of its supported keywords, but have all of them optional
5472020-07-17T20:17:55  <bsm117532> Well I guess then I'm dumping "watch only wallet descriptors" as a use case, at a minimum, and I'd like to see it developed toward a spec and BIP for wallet interoperability.
5482020-07-17T20:18:20  <sipa> so that different software can choose to implement a subset
5492020-07-17T20:18:42  <sipa> and a descriptor will either do the right thing, or fail to parse
5502020-07-17T20:19:08  <sipa> bsm117532: yes, but which descriptors?
5512020-07-17T20:19:21  <sipa> do you mean wsh-multisig only?
5522020-07-17T20:19:39  <bsm117532> The basics encompassing x/y/z pubs, and multisig would be a great start.
5532020-07-17T20:19:39  <sipa> or also 2fa timelocked htlc-based fancy wallets?
5542020-07-17T20:20:03  <sipa> bsm117532: if you use the term ypub/zpub you've missed the point
5552020-07-17T20:20:09  <bsm117532> how so?
5562020-07-17T20:20:30  <sipa> xpubs encode public keys, not what scripts to build with them
5572020-07-17T20:20:44  <sipa> ypub/zpub are imho a silly attempt at doing so, in a completely non-existible way
5582020-07-17T20:20:55  <sipa> descriptors replace that
5592020-07-17T20:21:00  <bsm117532> Of course, so restrict to the most basic of wallets: P2(W)PKH and multisig.
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5612020-07-17T20:21:28  <sipa> pretty sure that all works fine in anything that supports descriptors
5622020-07-17T20:21:29  <bsm117532> Another major problem is keypaths which are highly non-standard (but descriptors take care of).
5632020-07-17T20:21:44  <bsm117532> Point is, almost nothing supports descriptors at present. ;-)
5642020-07-17T20:21:51  <sipa> yes
5652020-07-17T20:21:56  <sipa> that's ok
5662020-07-17T20:22:38  <bsm117532> Would you be opposed to a restricted descriptor specification encompassing P2(W)PKH, multisig P2(W)SH, and corresponding keypaths, solely for watch-only wallets? Scripts can be added later.
5672020-07-17T20:23:12  <sipa> that's literally exactly what is supported now
5682020-07-17T20:23:28  <bsm117532> I know, but the point is to make a BIP and get other wallets to support it too. ;-)
5692020-07-17T20:23:42  <sipa> nack
5702020-07-17T20:23:45  <bsm117532> why?
5712020-07-17T20:24:06  <sipa> i really fear that will make it impossible to make it do actually cool things later
5722020-07-17T20:24:31  <sipa> without everyone going "oh, but can't use that because wallet service X only supports multi/sg/wsh descriptors"
5732020-07-17T20:25:05  <bsm117532> We're going to be stuck with those kinds of wallets for a long time to come, probably forever though.
5742020-07-17T20:25:25  <bsm117532> Arbitrary scripts are an interesting goal, but I think not practical for widespread support.
5752020-07-17T20:25:50  <bsm117532> sipa: what more do you want to add or envision arising for descriptors?
5762020-07-17T20:26:34  <sipa> i'm hopeful that if descriptors are a bit more mature, and there are libraries in multiple languages with reasonable implementations, then pushing for standardization will result in far more actually usable features
5772020-07-17T20:26:47  <sipa> bsm117532: at the very least, miniscript
5782020-07-17T20:27:58  <sipa> or a good formalism for dealing with extensions beyond that
5792020-07-17T20:29:55  <bsm117532> I would like the ability to easily export watch-only wallets, even independent of descriptors and miniscript. Forward-translating any spec for that into a more advanced descriptor or miniscript will always be straightforward.
5802020-07-17T20:30:52  <sipa> ok?
5812020-07-17T20:31:09  <sipa> so you're essentially saying you don't need a standard :)
5822020-07-17T20:31:40  <bsm117532> Standards are about interoperability...so yes, we need a standard.
5832020-07-17T20:31:53  <bsm117532> Even if it's overly simple compared to what's possible.
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5942020-07-17T21:25:15  <achow101> wumpus also has the same osx mismatch
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5992020-07-17T21:52:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fjahr opened pull request #19544: refactor: Add GetBool to rpc/util (master...rpc_bool) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19544
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