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402021-01-08T01:28:13 <ajonas> luke-jr: To piggyback on sipa's comment re the release notes, maybe I'm being too sensitive, but why would telemetry be ever be included? The mere mention puts me on edge.
412021-01-08T01:28:31 <ajonas> Also, soliciting opposition on Taproot in the release notes seems somewhat out of place.
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712021-01-08T02:45:56 <fanquake> I agree with sipa & ajonas. Really not sure about the addition of that paragraph
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742021-01-08T02:54:14 <luke-jr> ajonas: I mentioned it because it wouldn't be good if users got the false impression we were using telemetry
752021-01-08T02:54:32 <luke-jr> contructive would be suggesting how to rephrase it better :P
762021-01-08T02:55:16 <ajonas> Thatâs fair.
772021-01-08T02:57:20 <ajonas> I think just dropping that part would be best.
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792021-01-08T03:05:06 <luke-jr> ajonas: won't people assume there is telemetry then?
802021-01-08T03:05:47 <sipa> why would they?
812021-01-08T03:06:18 <sipa> you make it sound like there is a reason to :)
822021-01-08T03:08:41 <sipa> i don't think the adoption of 0.21.0 is any indication specifically about how safe a softfork _in another release_ is
832021-01-08T03:13:04 <luke-jr> it sets a minimum bound if we advise people treat it as one
842021-01-08T03:13:51 <luke-jr> normally if someone says they're measuring usage of software, it's via telemetry
852021-01-08T03:14:24 <fanquake> sets a minimum bound of what?
862021-01-08T03:15:00 <luke-jr> fanquake: if we say "treat 0.21 as Taproot" and 85% upgrade within a month, we can probably assume a month is a safe timeframe to begin signalling
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882021-01-08T03:16:34 <sipa> i don't think saying that makes that true
892021-01-08T03:16:45 <sipa> most people don't read release notes
902021-01-08T03:17:18 <luke-jr> sipa: if they don't, then it's only likely to be a slower upgrade than 0.21.Taproot
912021-01-08T03:17:47 <sipa> so?
922021-01-08T03:18:10 <luke-jr> so then it's (eg) 2 months, and only 1 month is needed; that's a safe error
932021-01-08T03:18:20 <sipa> you seem to want to use adoption of bitcoin core as telemetry (even if not through an explicit call-home)
942021-01-08T03:18:27 <sipa> i don't think we can do that, at all
952021-01-08T03:18:51 <luke-jr> why not?
962021-01-08T03:19:43 <sipa> because putting something about taproot in the release notes doesn't make "upgrading to 0.21.0" equivalent to "taproot will be safe"
972021-01-08T03:19:55 <sipa> even if you hope it is
982021-01-08T03:20:05 <luke-jr> it's a reasonable basis for a guess
992021-01-08T03:20:15 <luke-jr> _nothing_ can provide a guarantee
1002021-01-08T03:20:59 <sipa> i really don't like telling people that a completely unrelated software update will be used as a signal for something unrelated
1012021-01-08T03:21:46 <luke-jr> we have nothing else to go on?
1022021-01-08T03:22:10 <luke-jr> if not past upgrades, then what?
1032021-01-08T03:22:23 <sipa> how has the ecosystem in the past decides that softforks are safe?
1042021-01-08T03:23:15 <luke-jr> pure fiat
1052021-01-08T03:23:37 <sipa> rough consensus
1062021-01-08T03:24:26 <luke-jr> that's only been to determine if a softfork should happen or not
1072021-01-08T03:24:48 <luke-jr> and "rough consensus" with no inputs would still be arbitrary fiat
1082021-01-08T03:26:33 <sipa> that's fair
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1102021-01-08T03:27:08 <sipa> (that rough consensus is the standard for doing a softfork or not, not for determining a safe timeline)
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1122021-01-08T03:27:33 <sipa> but i think that a safe timeline should be based on historical data, not about upgrades to a specific software version
1132021-01-08T03:28:11 <luke-jr> I don't have such historical data, but I suspect it isn't pretty :/
1142021-01-08T03:28:26 <sipa> maybe
1152021-01-08T03:28:55 <sipa> it's important that an economically relevant part of the ecosystem updates before activation
1162021-01-08T03:29:20 <sipa> but it's hard to see how that translates to software upgrade (of an unrelated major release, of one implementation)
1172021-01-08T03:29:22 <luke-jr> eg, today only 39% of the network seems to run a current version (including most recent 0.18 and 0.19)
1182021-01-08T03:30:21 <luke-jr> almost 44% run 0.20.x
1192021-01-08T03:30:56 <luke-jr> based on this data, it would suggest we may need a year or longer before signalling even starts
1202021-01-08T03:31:17 <sipa> i don't have much of an opinion on that
1212021-01-08T03:31:32 <luke-jr> my hope of adding to 0.21 relnotes, is to encourage users to upgrade faster and reveal that we can be less slow about it
1222021-01-08T03:32:17 <sipa> that doesn't mean they'll also be faster when 0.21.taproot comes out
1232021-01-08T03:32:54 <luke-jr> right, but I'd hope if people upgrade specifically because of that relnote, that they will follow through with 0.21.taproot as well
1242021-01-08T03:32:57 <sipa> (or alternatively, people may in fact update to a minor release faster than a major one, because they want to wait for the first bugfixes)
1252021-01-08T03:33:15 <luke-jr> it's okay if 0.21.taproot is faster than 0.21.0
1262021-01-08T03:33:21 <luke-jr> the problem would only be if it was slower
1272021-01-08T03:33:39 <sipa> i'm just saying it's a shitty way to measure regardless
1282021-01-08T03:33:49 <sipa> and i'm not even sure that what we measure is relevant
1292021-01-08T03:33:59 <sipa> observable nodes aren't necessarily economically relevant
1302021-01-08T03:34:17 <luke-jr> perhaps, but I don't have anything better to form an informed opinion from
1312021-01-08T03:36:02 <sipa> perhaps, but putting something in the release notes isn't going to change that
1322021-01-08T03:39:37 <luke-jr> it will make 0.21.0's upgrade rate more positive and informative
1332021-01-08T03:39:43 <luke-jr> a new data point to work with
1342021-01-08T03:40:00 <luke-jr> (probably; at worst, no new data)
1352021-01-08T03:42:41 <sipa> i still find it very strange to mention that in the release notes
1362021-01-08T03:42:43 <sipa> it's so unrelated
1372021-01-08T03:44:54 <luke-jr> how else would we encourage such an effect?
1382021-01-08T03:45:59 <sipa> i'm not sure that we should
1392021-01-08T03:47:21 <sipa> and mentioning it just sounds like a weirdly pushy way to upgrade; people should upgrade because they're comfortable with it, not because of what implications their observable node version will have on the network
1402021-01-08T03:47:33 <luke-jr> hmm
1412021-01-08T03:48:20 <luke-jr> maybe a link to a web poll would be better - but it's harder to anonymise that trustlessly
1422021-01-08T03:48:45 <luke-jr> and we have no idea how many don't do the poll
1432021-01-08T03:49:03 <sipa> indeed, it's an inherently hard problem
1442021-01-08T03:49:39 <queip> sorry if bad idea, but, perhaps include specific option like --signal-taproot, that appends to user agent information visible in p2p (pro/against/ignore, defaulting to ignore) and mention *that* flag, along with info re taproot, in release notes?
1452021-01-08T03:49:59 <luke-jr> queip: many people just use the GUI
1462021-01-08T03:50:06 <luke-jr> and way too late to add such a thing anyway
1472021-01-08T03:50:10 <queip> (and GUI checkbox in options?)
1482021-01-08T03:50:42 <sipa> and this is _not_ about acceptance/objection to the idea
1492021-01-08T03:50:47 <sipa> this is about whether upgrading is safe
1502021-01-08T03:50:49 <luke-jr> sipa: well, we are about to release 0.20.2 also; we could mention that as an alternative way to show upgrade speed?
1512021-01-08T03:51:07 <sipa> i'd prefer to not mention it
1522021-01-08T03:51:12 <sipa> it's just confusing
1532021-01-08T03:51:51 <luke-jr> then we have nothing :|
1542021-01-08T03:52:12 <sipa> i don't see the problem
1552021-01-08T03:52:19 <sipa> why is it so important?
1562021-01-08T03:52:47 <luke-jr> most people don't want to wait until 2022-2023 for Taproot?
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1582021-01-08T03:52:56 <sipa> okay?
1592021-01-08T03:53:13 <luke-jr> and that's the soonest our current data suggests would be safe
1602021-01-08T03:53:19 <sipa> i don't see why
1612021-01-08T03:53:48 <sipa> node count on the network is a very weak measurement of economically relevant upgrade activity at best
1622021-01-08T03:54:45 <luke-jr> it's all we have
1632021-01-08T03:55:27 <sipa> we have companies that are known to support it
1642021-01-08T03:55:40 <luke-jr> so companies decide Bitcoin protocol rules now?
1652021-01-08T03:56:10 <sipa> what? this isn't about deciding rules
1662021-01-08T03:56:23 <sipa> this is about coordinating a safe upgrade
1672021-01-08T03:56:38 <luke-jr> safety comes from rule enforcement though
1682021-01-08T03:57:02 <sipa> yes, by econonically relevant nodes
1692021-01-08T03:57:29 <luke-jr> but if companies are taken to be those, then companies could impose other rules on everyone else too
1702021-01-08T03:58:02 <sipa> you're taking this way too far
1712021-01-08T03:58:13 <luke-jr> â¦
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1732021-01-08T03:58:30 <sipa> someone should just propose a reasonable upgrade mechanism, ask for feedback, and do it
1742021-01-08T03:59:29 <sipa> i have no opinion on what that should be, but i don't think upgrade rates of nodes matter much... and certainly not those of an unrelated software release
1752021-01-08T04:01:53 <sipa> and making it sound like upgrade rates will even determine that sounds weird and bad; these things should be decided using a public discussion
1762021-01-08T04:04:29 <luke-jr> there is no forum of discussion for all bitcoin users
1772021-01-08T04:09:27 <sipa> i would just say "Bitcoin Core 0.21.0 includes an implementation of the proposed Taproot (BIP 341-342) consensus rules, without activation for mainnet. Experimenting with Taproot can be done on the new Signet network where it is already active. Activation parameters will likely be included in a future minor release, and the proposed rules will not be enforced without upgrading to it."
1782021-01-08T04:09:43 <sipa> or something like
1792021-01-08T04:09:45 <sipa> that
1802021-01-08T04:10:25 <sipa> that shows how this release is relevant to taproot, without tying upgrade numbers to how activation will be decided (because, imho, it actually shouldn't)
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1822021-01-08T04:16:18 <luke-jr> trusting big business to enforce rules is no better than trusting miners to do it
1832021-01-08T04:16:54 <luke-jr> even if not a perfect metric, node upgrades should be the primary thing to look at to decide when signalling starting is safe
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1852021-01-08T04:18:32 <luke-jr> at the end of the day, businesses need to use what their income/expenses want to pay/be paid with
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1942021-01-08T04:56:10 <dhruvm> Where can I learn more about how the hardcoded seeds in contrib/seeds/nodes_main.txt are chosen each release?
1952021-01-08T04:57:00 <wumpus> dhruvm: #20237 #18506 etc
1962021-01-08T04:57:03 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20237 | net: Hardcoded seeds update for 0.21 by laanwj · Pull Request #20237 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1972021-01-08T04:57:04 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18506 | net: Hardcoded seeds update for 0.20 by laanwj · Pull Request #18506 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1982021-01-08T04:57:53 <dhruvm> Thanks, wumpus
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2022021-01-08T05:12:33 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/86a8b35f321d...76b45d5fd7eb
2032021-01-08T05:12:34 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 107f33d Carl Dong: depends: Delay expansion of per-package vars
2042021-01-08T05:12:35 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3007339 Carl Dong: depends: Pin clang search paths for darwin host
2052021-01-08T05:12:36 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 77b1ef8 Carl Dong: depends: Remove -fuse-ld line
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2082021-01-08T05:12:53 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19683: depends: Pin clang search paths for darwin host (master...2020-08-clang-search-path-robustness) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19683
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2312021-01-08T07:12:37 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #20881: fuzz: net permission flags in net processing (master...2101-fuzzNet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20881
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2392021-01-08T07:37:46 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/76b45d5fd7eb...5082324225bf
2402021-01-08T07:37:46 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a7599c8 Michael Dietz: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled
2412021-01-08T07:37:47 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5082324 MarcoFalke: Merge #20688: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled...
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2442021-01-08T07:38:06 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20688: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled (master...mempool-compatibility-to-miniwallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20688
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2632021-01-08T08:22:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #20124: Missing blockhash prefix (0x) for Testnet and Regtest (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20124
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2702021-01-08T08:41:50 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration (master...2101-fuzzMuhash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20882
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2762021-01-08T09:00:58 <jonasschnelli> achow101: shall I use #20880 for 0.19.0? Or should I stick with my head at c09afdd748816e95843c93609d9e6671c8e92efd (Remove premature make_code_directory) that worked for 0.19.2rc1?
2772021-01-08T09:01:01 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20880 | gitian: Use custom MacOS code signing tool by achow101 · Pull Request #20880 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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3132021-01-08T12:25:35 <jnewbery> luke-jr sipa ajonas fanquake: for what it's worth, I agree with sipa/ajonas/fanquake about the v0.21 release notes. The taproot paragraph seems unsuitable for the release notes.
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3182021-01-08T12:30:48 <michaelfolkson> luke-jr: It would be nice to rely on nodes rather than companies. But nodes are trivially sybilled and companies aren't.
3192021-01-08T12:31:43 <michaelfolkson> I guess involving smaller companies is a strategy if you are concerned about big businesses
3202021-01-08T12:34:34 <michaelfolkson> But agree with general premise that interacting with big businesses when there is clear consensus for the soft fork change across the whole ecosystem is very different to interacting with big businesses when there isn't
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3242021-01-08T12:59:30 <fanquake> wumpus / sipa can you block kaycoinsUSA
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3262021-01-08T13:02:10 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5082324225bf...1e078f17b5dc
3272021-01-08T13:02:11 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa44417 MarcoFalke: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration
3282021-01-08T13:02:11 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1e078f1 MarcoFalke: Merge #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration
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3312021-01-08T13:02:30 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration (master...2101-fuzzMuhash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20882
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3472021-01-08T14:16:04 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1e078f17b5dc...9158d6f34153
3482021-01-08T14:16:05 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faecb74 Jon Atack: Expose integral m_conn_type in CNodeStats, remove m_conn_type_string
3492021-01-08T14:16:05 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9158d6f MarcoFalke: Merge #20786: net: [refactor] Prefer integral types in CNodeStats
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3522021-01-08T14:16:24 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20786: net: [refactor] Prefer integral types in CNodeStats (master...2012-net) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20786
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3732021-01-08T16:09:52 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #20884: script: Improve robustness of bitcoind.service on startup (master...210108-systemd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20884
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3962021-01-08T18:17:49 <achow101> jonasschnelli: until 20880 is merged, I think you should stick with the commit I tagged "with-codesign-allocate" which should be your current HEAD
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3992021-01-08T18:31:54 <jonasschnelli> achow101: okay
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4022021-01-08T18:39:59 <jonasschnelli> gitian builders: 0.19.2 detached signatures are pushed.
4032021-01-08T18:42:14 <hebasto> jonasschnelli: only win sigs in https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/tree/0.19
4042021-01-08T18:42:32 <jonasschnelli> hebastohttps://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/tree/v0.19.2
4052021-01-08T18:43:02 <jonasschnelli> I might have forgotten to push the branch itself (only the tag)
4062021-01-08T18:43:16 <jonasschnelli> now also the branch... thanks for pointing out hebasto
4072021-01-08T18:43:19 <achow101> I think you forgot to push the branch
4082021-01-08T18:43:58 <jonasschnelli> indeed. But I guess the tag is whats count. But of couse we want the branch as well
4092021-01-08T18:44:09 <jonasschnelli> done
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4112021-01-08T18:56:48 <jonasschnelli> 0.19.2: a642483bb66fe03be10eef3811f0bd7db43b809933a03517290303281bce90f8 bitcoin-osx-signed.dmg
4122021-01-08T18:57:13 <achow101> match
4132021-01-08T18:57:24 <luke-jr> 0.19.2 was tagged? was there any indication anyone tested the rc?
4142021-01-08T18:58:34 <luke-jr> _one_ node on the network doesn't give me any such confidence :/
4152021-01-08T19:07:51 <sipa> achow101: when i run gitian-build.py it doesn't build signed osx
4162021-01-08T19:07:59 <sipa> "Already up to date"
4172021-01-08T19:08:13 <achow101> missing -s?
4182021-01-08T19:09:02 <sipa> ./gitian-build.py --os o -j 7 -m 7000 --sign --detach-sign --no-commit sipa 0.19.2
4192021-01-08T19:09:34 <sipa> oh, silly me
4202021-01-08T19:09:37 <sipa> it's --os m
4212021-01-08T19:09:38 <achow101> --os m for macos
4222021-01-08T19:16:22 <luke-jr> â¦
4232021-01-08T19:22:11 <sipa> 10:55:17 < wumpus> btw, is it time to tag 0.19.2? doesn't seem another rc is needed
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4402021-01-08T21:29:51 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mjdietzx opened pull request #20889: test: ensure any failing method in MiniWallet leaves no side-effects (master...test-miniwallet-no-side-effects) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20889
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4442021-01-08T21:37:03 <wumpus> luke-jr: no idea, I wouldn't have chosen myself to do a release on an old branch like that, it's always the same story
4452021-01-08T21:37:44 <wumpus> "oh did anyone test the rc at all", no idea, it's possible no one runs it at all and it's purely wasted time
4462021-01-08T21:38:42 <wumpus> in any case if anyone tested it they didn't report any problems with it
4472021-01-08T21:40:06 <sipa> i wonder how common extensive rc processes are for old bacport bugfix releases in other projects
4482021-01-08T21:40:18 <sipa> it's not that they are untested; all our automated testing for them passes
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4512021-01-08T22:00:01 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #20890: doc: Add explicit macdeployqtplus dependencies install step (master...210108-deploy) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20890
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4532021-01-08T22:02:04 <sipa> aj, kallewoof: i added a section about signet to the 0.21 release notes draft; please have a look and maybe expand on it
4542021-01-08T22:10:18 <luke-jr> sipa: true
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4622021-01-08T23:15:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #20891: rpc: Remove deprecated bumpfee behavior (master...rm-bumpfee-deprecated) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20891
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