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92021-03-11T01:13:11 <fanquake> I'm aware of some large companies that are using zmq extensively in production
102021-03-11T01:18:07 <jeremyrubin> the ZMQ interface we have always struck me as a bit weird
112021-03-11T01:18:15 <jeremyrubin> I guess if it works for people it works
122021-03-11T01:18:33 <jeremyrubin> but I think phantomcircuit your intuition is correct that it might be used wrongly
132021-03-11T01:18:37 <sipa> it'd be saner if it contained just txids/block hashes
142021-03-11T01:18:44 <sipa> and didn't contain any actual data
152021-03-11T01:20:46 <phantomcircuit> fanquake, then they are risking financial loss
162021-03-11T01:20:57 <phantomcircuit> the zmq interface has zero reliability guarantees
172021-03-11T01:21:15 <fanquake> let us know what you plan on replacing it with
182021-03-11T01:21:19 <phantomcircuit> sipa, even then it's pointless, you need to poll to guarantee consistency, so why not just poll?
192021-03-11T01:21:40 <phantomcircuit> fanquake, let me know whose using it so i can not use them
202021-03-11T01:23:02 <sipa> phantomcircuit: depending on the application it's perfectly fine to poll infrequently, and also poll immediately when a zmq notification comes in
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222021-03-11T01:26:01 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the class of application for which that's ok is basically restricted to the websites displaying the mempool
232021-03-11T01:26:18 <phantomcircuit> sipa, if the zmq interface was narrowed to be a single bit "you want to poll" that would be fine
242021-03-11T01:26:22 <phantomcircuit> but also nobody would use that
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262021-03-11T01:27:40 <instagibbs> sipa, there are multiple subscriptions for just hashes, "sequence" notifier also lets you detect dropped messages and fallback to a poll
272021-03-11T01:28:16 <sipa> right, that was added
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572021-03-11T03:34:16 <phantomcircuit> instagibbs, yes but that means you have a system where failing to do something results in a synchronization failure instead of a system where you're polling
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692021-03-11T04:14:27 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jarolrod opened pull request #21414: doc: update macOS depends platform triplets (master...macOS-platform-triplets) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21414
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792021-03-11T06:04:14 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21415: refactor: remove Optional & nullopt (master...remove_optional_wrapper) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21415
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812021-03-11T06:09:09 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: i don't want to remove zmq, i really like to have a notification mechanism that is not 'call out to a process'
822021-03-11T06:09:30 <wumpus> phantomcircuit: that is the thing i dislike deeply so let's just agree to disagree
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842021-03-11T06:11:38 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, how about not sending actual data
852021-03-11T06:11:43 <wumpus> *all* notification mechanisms have some degree of unreliability, there is no such thing as 100% reliable notification
862021-03-11T06:12:05 <wumpus> the sequence numbers solve most concerns it pretty well imo and yes you *can* use it wrong
872021-03-11T06:12:16 <wumpus> we had this discussion soo many times
882021-03-11T06:13:56 <wumpus> i like having actual data this is good for low-latency default path
892021-03-11T06:15:42 <wumpus> there are valid reasons for using different kinds of designs, different compromises
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962021-03-11T07:18:22 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #21408: doc: Explain how NACK commit_id works (master...2103-docNack) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21408
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1102021-03-11T08:47:22 <vasild> "1 ACK" label :)
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1122021-03-11T08:57:19 <jnewbery> wumpus: I agree. We know that people and companies use ZMQ so there'd need to be a much stronger reason to remove it than some other people don't like it. If you don't like ZMQ, don't use it.
1132021-03-11T09:00:13 <MarcoFalke> I don't think we've ever had issues with ACK spam
1142021-03-11T09:00:33 <MarcoFalke> Yes, there are issues where bot click the GitHub approve button
1152021-03-11T09:00:45 <MarcoFalke> But that doesn't influence ACKs in any way
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1172021-03-11T09:04:09 <MarcoFalke> Currently it is impossible to find out whether a pull has at least one ACK without loading the page and going through all comments
1182021-03-11T09:04:50 <fanquake> Any relevant ACK will always have to be within the most recent few comment no?
1192021-03-11T09:05:19 <MarcoFalke> Sure, so you'll have to find the most recent commit and then read the comments from there
1202021-03-11T09:05:25 <jonatack> My impression was ACK quality > quantity (even CONTRIBUTING.md discusses weighing by merit)
1212021-03-11T09:05:51 <MarcoFalke> Of course the number of ACKs doesn't say anything about their quality
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1232021-03-11T09:06:08 <jonatack> (or quality of feedback... I've invalidated 7 ACKs before to address review feedback)
1242021-03-11T09:07:20 <MarcoFalke> We have contributors complain that the pull request process (or what state a pull request is in) is not transparent, so I don't see why an attempt to make it more transparent is rejected so strongly
1252021-03-11T09:08:03 <MarcoFalke> bitcoinacks already does that, so the label is just bringing that to the "native GitHub" feel
1262021-03-11T09:09:26 <jonatack> The process can sometimes be confusing (what does this mean, what is the appropriate response, etc). It's a human one, after all.
1272021-03-11T09:10:42 <jonatack> I don't have an answer to it, though.
1282021-03-11T09:12:14 <promag> phantomcircuit: in doc/zmq.md "Therefore, subscribers should validate the received data since it may be out of date, incomplete or even invalid"
1292021-03-11T09:13:31 <vasild> MarcoFalke: I like the "1 ACK" label, would it be invalidated by a force-push? Should it be?
1302021-03-11T09:13:58 <promag> phantomcircuit: production code should not rely just on zmq, I'd expect people using pubsub zmq would know that
1312021-03-11T09:14:09 <vasild> "1 outdated ACK" label :)
1322021-03-11T09:14:09 <MarcoFalke> Yes, my idea was to only count the ACKs that are also counted in a merge commit
1332021-03-11T09:14:37 <promag> phantomcircuit: but its a great way to avoid frequent polling
1342021-03-11T09:15:39 <vasild> so you wrote some script to deduce if a PR has at least one ACK (on the latest topmost commit)?
1352021-03-11T09:16:03 <MarcoFalke> the script isn't written yet. It was an idea from yesterday
1362021-03-11T09:16:11 <vasild> you did that manually?
1372021-03-11T09:16:28 <MarcoFalke> yes, for two pull requests
1382021-03-11T09:17:42 <vasild> I think that is (would be) very useful
1392021-03-11T09:18:32 <vasild> maybe even (feature creep!) "2 ACKs", "3 ACKs", "many ACKs"
1402021-03-11T09:18:50 <promag> sorry guys, but what is the goal of those labels?
1412021-03-11T09:19:24 <MarcoFalke> (1) to see in conflicts how many ACKs they have (and how many acks would be invalidated)
1422021-03-11T09:19:57 <MarcoFalke> (2) to see if a pull request has $n ACKs and might be ready for merge
1432021-03-11T09:23:26 <promag> ty
1442021-03-11T09:23:36 <vasild> (3) (maybe that is just me) Sometimes I am in the mood of reviewing pristine PRs (no ACKs yet) and sometimes in the mood of helping with some PR that is on the brink of a merge and may need just one more ACK
1452021-03-11T09:25:31 <vasild> ... or sometimes PRs that have numbers that end in ...55 or commits that begin with fa...
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1572021-03-11T09:55:08 <promag> MarcoFalke: how about having a gh project for that? there you would have a auto managed column with cards ordered by "maturity" or so
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1632021-03-11T10:18:44 <MarcoFalke> I think the number of ACKs doesn't say how mature a pull is. It also depends on what code the pull is touching
1642021-03-11T10:19:24 <MarcoFalke> For example a test-only change with one ACK is likely more mature than a versionbits change with two ACKs
1652021-03-11T10:20:00 <MarcoFalke> s/is likely/may be/
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1692021-03-11T10:50:16 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 13 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/63314b8211d7...767bb7d5c56b
1702021-03-11T10:50:17 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a04aac4 Carl Dong: validation: Remove extraneous LoadGenesisBlock function prototype
1712021-03-11T10:50:18 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d0de61b Carl Dong: miner: Pass in chainstate to BlockAssembler::CreateNewBlock
1722021-03-11T10:50:18 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 46b7f29 Carl Dong: scripted-diff: Invoke CreateNewBlock with chainstate
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1752021-03-11T10:50:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21270: [Bundle 4/n] Prune g_chainman usage in validation-adjacent modules (master...2020-09-libbitcoinruntime-v6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21270
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1812021-03-11T10:52:22 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 12 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/767bb7d5c56b...e828fc8f528d
1822021-03-11T10:52:23 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d769b33 fanquake: build: only pass -optimized-tools to qt in debug mode
1832021-03-11T10:52:24 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3272e34 Hennadii Stepanov: build: Add xkbcommon 0.8.4
1842021-03-11T10:52:25 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 06cd0da fanquake: build: qt 5.12.10
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1872021-03-11T10:52:40 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21376: depends: Qt 5.12.10 (master...qt_5_12_10_enhanced) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21376
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1892021-03-11T10:52:47 <hebasto> \o/
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1942021-03-11T11:10:59 <promag> MarcoFalke: right, I'm not saying maturity is # of acks, but there could be multiple columns for each sorting criteria
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1962021-03-11T11:13:48 <promag> (#-of-updated-ack x sum-of-label-weigthts) / (1 + #-conflicts)
1972021-03-11T11:14:02 <promag> X)
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2712021-03-11T14:28:33 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #21417: Misc external signer improvement and HWI 2 support (master...2021/03/hwi2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21417
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2742021-03-11T14:28:54 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e828fc8f528d...92cf3a22e3c7
2752021-03-11T14:28:55 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 612f746 Wladimir J. van der Laan: util: Add RAII TokenPipe
2762021-03-11T14:28:55 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c3e6fde Wladimir J. van der Laan: shutdown: Use RAII TokenPipe in shutdown
2772021-03-11T14:28:55 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e017a91 Wladimir J. van der Laan: bitcoind: Add -daemonwait option to wait for initialization
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2802021-03-11T14:29:13 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21007: bitcoind: Add -daemonwait option to wait for initialization (master...2021-01-daemonwait) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21007
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2832021-03-11T14:34:38 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #21418: contrib: Make systemd invoke dependencies only when ready (master...2021-03-systemd-daemonwait) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21418
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3412021-03-11T18:10:38 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/92cf3a22e3c7...e9b6400a1ef2
3422021-03-11T18:10:38 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3a16b5e Jon Atack: test: add missing logging to wallet_groups.py
3432021-03-11T18:10:39 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c62f9bc Jon Atack: test: use fewer blocks in wallet_groups and move sync call
3442021-03-11T18:10:40 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e9b6400 MarcoFalke: Merge #21411: test: add logging, reduce blocks, move sync_all in wallet_ g...
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3482021-03-11T18:11:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21411: test: add logging, reduce blocks, move sync_all in wallet_ groups (master...wallet_groups-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21411
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3542021-03-11T18:44:54 <bitcoin-git> [gui] MarcoFalke merged pull request #188: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode (master...bin-mode-psbts) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/188
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3582021-03-11T18:45:13 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e9b6400a1ef2...b972913c330a
3592021-03-11T18:45:13 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cc3971c Andrew Chow: GUI: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode
3602021-03-11T18:45:14 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b972913 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin-core/gui#188: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode
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3682021-03-11T19:00:32 <wumpus> #startmeeting
3692021-03-11T19:00:32 <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 11 19:00:32 2021 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
3702021-03-11T19:00:33 <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
3712021-03-11T19:00:35 <jonasschnelli> hi
3722021-03-11T19:00:36 <achow101> hi
3732021-03-11T19:00:50 <hebasto> hi
3742021-03-11T19:00:50 <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
3752021-03-11T19:00:52 <sipa> hi
3762021-03-11T19:00:52 <wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
3772021-03-11T19:00:58 <sipsorcery> hi
3782021-03-11T19:01:13 <luke-jr> hi
3792021-03-11T19:01:25 <wumpus> no proposed meeting topics this week it seems (http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt), any last-minute things anyone would like to discuss?
3802021-03-11T19:01:30 <jnewbery> hii
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3822021-03-11T19:01:36 <meshcollider> hi
3832021-03-11T19:01:45 <jonatack> hi
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3862021-03-11T19:02:17 <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
3872021-03-11T19:02:17 <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
3882021-03-11T19:02:28 <fjahr> hi
3892021-03-11T19:02:30 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 9 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
3902021-03-11T19:02:48 <wumpus> anything to add / remove or (almost) ready for merge ?
3912021-03-11T19:04:02 <wumpus> or does anyone want to plug their already added to-review PR :)
3922021-03-11T19:04:17 <sipa> i hope #20861 is close :)
3932021-03-11T19:04:20 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20861 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses by sipa · Pull Request #20861 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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3952021-03-11T19:04:32 <wumpus> good !
3962021-03-11T19:04:40 <wumpus> yes, that one was in the review club
3972021-03-11T19:05:44 <achow101> I'd like to plug #21083 so that I can move on to taproot activation as my hi prio
3982021-03-11T19:05:46 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21083 | wallet: Avoid requesting fee rates multiple times during coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #21083 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3992021-03-11T19:06:00 <jnewbery> sipa: I'm planning to leave a full review very soon
4002021-03-11T19:06:06 *** warren_ is now known as warren
4012021-03-11T19:06:12 <sipa> jnewbery: aight
4022021-03-11T19:06:14 <warren> hi
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4042021-03-11T19:06:48 <wumpus> achow101: that one *sounds* quite straightforward at least
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4062021-03-11T19:07:44 <luke-jr> iirc it isn't as straightforward as it sounds - but probably not very hard either
4072021-03-11T19:07:53 <wumpus> okay if nothing else, that concludes the meeting, thanks everyone for attending and see you next week
4082021-03-11T19:07:59 <luke-jr> XD
4092021-03-11T19:08:22 <jnewbery> thanks wumpus. Short and sweet!
4102021-03-11T19:08:27 <wumpus> #endmeeting
4112021-03-11T19:08:28 <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
4122021-03-11T19:08:28 <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 11 19:08:27 2021 UTC.
4132021-03-11T19:08:28 <core-meetingbot> Minutes: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-03-11-19.00.moin.txt
4142021-03-11T19:08:30 <aj> hi
4152021-03-11T19:08:34 <aj> oops :)
4162021-03-11T19:09:09 <aj> wumpus: #21380 for hipri?
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4182021-03-11T19:09:11 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21380 | Add fuzzing harness for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4192021-03-11T19:10:24 <jonasschnelli> aj: added
4202021-03-11T19:10:34 <aj> jonasschnelli: tnx
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