12021-04-08T00:01:00 <fanquake> sipa: I often see similar timeouts with descriptor related tests
22021-04-08T00:01:33 <fanquake> Ideally the CreateWallet tests shouldn't take > 3 minutes, regardless of disk speed
32021-04-08T00:06:20 <achow101> phantomcircuit: do you happen to know what the actual difference between synchronous=FULL and synchronous=NORMAL is?
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52021-04-08T00:12:10 <sipa> according to the docs, normal doesn't always sync, and thus has a small risk of corruoting the database if power fails at just the wrong timr
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72021-04-08T00:12:26 <sipa> (unless WAL, which is safe in combination with normal)
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122021-04-08T00:17:03 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cb79cabdd9d9...2e9031f95d2b
132021-04-08T00:17:04 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94c7dd9 Yerzhan Mazhkenov: doc: Fix typos from codespell lint
142021-04-08T00:17:04 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2e9031f fanquake: Merge #21626: doc: Fix typos from codespell
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172021-04-08T00:17:22 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21626: doc: Fix typos from codespell (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21626
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202021-04-08T00:19:08 <achow101> it looks like normal is 1 sync while full is 2 syncs. but changing to normal still results in a timeout
212021-04-08T00:22:09 <achow101> i guess for tests we could just do synchronous=off
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462021-04-08T01:24:26 <midnight> sipa: ping, can you re-center your hashrate graphs?
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482021-04-08T01:28:28 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21634: tests: Skip SQLite fsyncs while testing (master...optimize-sqlite) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21634
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552021-04-08T02:20:42 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18194: Bugfix: GUI: Remove broken ability to edit the address field in the sending address book (master...bugfix_gui_edit_sendaddr) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18194
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732021-04-08T03:48:29 <phantomcircuit> achow101, no i don't, it's pretty vague
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992021-04-08T06:00:04 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18909: [0.20] Fix release tarball (0.20...fix_release_tarball-0.20) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18909
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1082021-04-08T06:10:51 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #19120: QA: Support making RPC calls with different authentication (master...qa_rpc_with_auth) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19120
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1212021-04-08T07:09:28 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2e9031f95d2b...6664211be2b6
1222021-04-08T07:09:28 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9044522 Russell Yanofsky: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366
1232021-04-08T07:09:29 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6664211 MarcoFalke: Merge #21574: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366
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1262021-04-08T07:09:48 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21574: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366 (master...pr/simpreq) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21574
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1522021-04-08T09:28:39 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #21445: cirrus: Use SSD cluster for speedup (master...2103-ciSSD) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21445
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1592021-04-08T10:16:58 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #19048: test: changing signature of wait_until(). (master...fixing-waituntil) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19048
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1682021-04-08T11:00:43 <Kiminuo> sdaftuar, Hi, is there a reason why lines L288 and L289 were not deleted in PR #12127 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12127/files#diff-f4f454edbfa1a878a9d4ad4371611c6c2812b7c77d2bd01baa66606524b61f9eL290)?
1692021-04-08T11:00:45 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12127 | Remove unused mempool index by sdaftuar · Pull Request #12127 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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1842021-04-08T12:52:51 <NiamhOnMars> hi I was wondering why the original bitcoin code had some irc related code to join the #bitcoin IRC channel
1852021-04-08T12:54:49 <elichai2> NiamhOnMars: IIRC it was used to find other peers (before the dns seeding)
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1912021-04-08T13:37:09 <_flow_> that
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2602021-04-08T18:57:46 <luke-jr> #proposedmeetingtopic attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8
2612021-04-08T19:01:11 <wumpus> #startmeeting
2622021-04-08T19:01:14 <jonasschnelli> hi
2632021-04-08T19:01:19 <sipsorcery> hi
2642021-04-08T19:01:34 <hebasto> hi
2652021-04-08T19:01:51 <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
2662021-04-08T19:01:53 <wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
2672021-04-08T19:02:01 <jonatack> hi
2682021-04-08T19:02:03 <amiti> hi
2692021-04-08T19:02:06 <fjahr> hi
2702021-04-08T19:02:08 <jeremyrubin> hallo
2712021-04-08T19:02:22 <phantomcircuit> uhm hello
2722021-04-08T19:02:33 <achow101> hi
2732021-04-08T19:02:39 <jnewbery> hi
2742021-04-08T19:02:41 <luke-jr> hi
2752021-04-08T19:02:51 <wumpus> one proposed meeting topic: attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
2762021-04-08T19:02:55 <wumpus> any last minute suggestions?
2772021-04-08T19:03:04 *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2782021-04-08T19:03:22 <wumpus> (as a reminder: you can propose a meeting topic with #proposedmeetingtopic <topic> at any time during the week)
2792021-04-08T19:03:59 <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
2802021-04-08T19:03:59 <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
2812021-04-08T19:04:12 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 has 11 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
2822021-04-08T19:04:23 <wumpus> anything to add, remove, or that is ready to merge?
2832021-04-08T19:04:25 <jonatack> #21392 seems closed, remove?
2842021-04-08T19:04:29 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2852021-04-08T19:04:40 <wumpus> jonatack: looks like it
2862021-04-08T19:04:55 <jonatack> (not opining, just info)
2872021-04-08T19:04:56 <achow101> remove for now
2882021-04-08T19:05:23 <wumpus> should we add #21377 instead?
2892021-04-08T19:05:26 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2902021-04-08T19:05:31 <luke-jr> replace with #19573
2912021-04-08T19:05:33 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19573 | Replace unused BIP 9 logic with draft BIP 8 by luke-jr · Pull Request #19573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2922021-04-08T19:05:37 <luke-jr> #21377 is NACK
2932021-04-08T19:05:38 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2942021-04-08T19:05:49 <achow101> We can add 21377 to hi prio
2952021-04-08T19:05:56 <luke-jr> it would be an abuse of position to merge 21377
2962021-04-08T19:06:08 <wumpus> ok never mind...
2972021-04-08T19:06:14 <wumpus> anything else?
2982021-04-08T19:06:25 <achow101> #17331 for me
2992021-04-08T19:06:29 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17331 | Use effective values throughout coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #17331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3002021-04-08T19:06:47 <jeremyrubin> +1 #21377 for high priority for review
3012021-04-08T19:06:50 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3022021-04-08T19:07:02 <wumpus> achow101: added
3032021-04-08T19:07:03 <jeremyrubin> I think irrespective of if it is merged, reviewing it is high priority
3042021-04-08T19:08:06 <wumpus> in the end it's up to the author (ajtowns) if he wants it has high prio, but you're right that is separate from whether it can be merged or not
3052021-04-08T19:08:58 <jeremyrubin> he can ack adding it after the meeting, unclear if he's present
3062021-04-08T19:09:09 <wumpus> yes
3072021-04-08T19:09:58 <wumpus> that concludes high priority for review unless anyone else has suggstions
3082021-04-08T19:10:21 <wumpus> #topic Attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
3092021-04-08T19:10:22 <core-meetingbot> topic: Attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
3102021-04-08T19:10:27 <jonatack> #19521 freshly needs rebase but should be close to ready, it's been through a number of review rounds by provoostenator and i
3112021-04-08T19:10:30 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19521 | Coinstats Index by fjahr · Pull Request #19521 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3122021-04-08T19:10:45 <luke-jr> I find it quite disturbing a few devs are attempting a NYA-like push to make consensus changes outright disregarding the community consensus around BIP 8.
3132021-04-08T19:10:52 <wumpus> jonatack: good to know!
3142021-04-08T19:11:41 <jeremyrubin> As the author behind the quoted "dev muscle", I would like to note that the context in which it was used was referring to sufficient resources to review and audit the corresponding PR
3152021-04-08T19:11:47 <luke-jr> and for no real apparent reason but to spite UASFers by reverting all the improvements made over 2017 - widely acknowledged as improvements until LOT=True began to move forward
3162021-04-08T19:12:13 <jeremyrubin> It is not in the context of devs muscling the community, which i think it has been represented to be in the setting of this topic
3172021-04-08T19:12:21 <jnewbery> As usual, luke-jr is misrepresenting
3182021-04-08T19:12:27 <luke-jr> no, I am not
3192021-04-08T19:12:44 <luke-jr> nor is that usual
3202021-04-08T19:13:44 <achow101> there is a person who has raised an unaddressed objection to BIP 8, therefore it does not have consensus
3212021-04-08T19:13:49 <luke-jr> jnewbery: I don't know what you have against me, but trolling liek that is unproductive and malicious.
3222021-04-08T19:14:01 <jeremyrubin> anyone is free to review the logs for relevent context http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-04-06.log
3232021-04-08T19:14:27 <jnewbery> at the very least you're misrepresenting the intent of jeremy's words
3242021-04-08T19:14:29 <luke-jr> achow101: even if that were true, all but one person is still far more than this MTP nonsense
3252021-04-08T19:14:30 <jeremyrubin> i've also summarized from https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018746.html
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3272021-04-08T19:14:47 <luke-jr> jnewbery: read the log
3282021-04-08T19:14:56 <jnewbery> I've read it, thanks
3292021-04-08T19:15:23 <achow101> at this time, 21377 is in a state where everyone except luke-jr is okay with it, and onlyu luke-jr has stated "no" and "nack" without providing any reasoning behind those statements
3302021-04-08T19:15:34 <achow101> simply asserting "no" and "nack" is not an objection
3312021-04-08T19:15:42 <jnewbery> achow101: +1
3322021-04-08T19:16:00 <luke-jr> achow101: that isn't true
3332021-04-08T19:16:20 <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#conceptual-review
3342021-04-08T19:16:23 <luke-jr> there is practically no community support for 21377, just a handful of devs
3352021-04-08T19:16:36 <jeremyrubin> A NACK needs to include a rationale why the change is not worthwhile. NACKs without accompanying reasoning may be disregarded.
3362021-04-08T19:16:42 <luke-jr> and most of you acknowledge height is better
3372021-04-08T19:16:43 <achow101> luke-jr: so all of the people who participated in the meeting yesterday or all devs?
3382021-04-08T19:16:51 <achow101> *are
3392021-04-08T19:17:06 <luke-jr> achow101: I didn't say that, but it's far fewer than the consensus around BIP8
3402021-04-08T19:17:13 <luke-jr> not even comparable
3412021-04-08T19:17:29 <jeremyrubin> numerous ACKs on https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f#gistcomment-3695024 which is nonspecific to height or MTP
3422021-04-08T19:17:59 <luke-jr> the whole point of ST in the first place, was to be a neutral start between the simple disagreement on LOT
3432021-04-08T19:18:09 <luke-jr> throwing away the consensus on everything else defeats the point
3442021-04-08T19:18:18 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: that gist was about height
3452021-04-08T19:18:28 <jnewbery> luke-jr: most people have stopped responding to your outlandish claims because there's almost no point. There's no evidence that your proposal has "community support"
3462021-04-08T19:18:57 <jeremyrubin> it was about harding's proposal https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-March/018583.html
3472021-04-08T19:19:05 <luke-jr> jnewbery: far more evidence than this MTP nonsense
3482021-04-08T19:19:34 <jeremyrubin> which says: " The idea can be implemented on top of either Bitcoin Core's existing BIP9 code or its proposed BIP8 patchset.[6]"
3492021-04-08T19:19:39 <jnewbery> you've had plenty of opportunity to make your case already. What exactly do you hope to achieve in this meeting by restating things you've claimed many times before in many previous meetings?
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3522021-04-08T19:21:40 <jeremyrubin> I'd also invite those unfamiliar to review a different community's operating procedure https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282
3532021-04-08T19:22:04 <achow101> there have been a few people who pop in and nack 21377, however those nacks are always unsubstantiated and no response is provided upon asking for the motivation behind those nacks
3542021-04-08T19:22:40 <luke-jr> the problems with MTP are well-known and shouldn't need ot be repeated constantly
3552021-04-08T19:23:02 <jeremyrubin> I think aj and achow101 adressed them in a very elegent manner
3562021-04-08T19:23:19 <jeremyrubin> so i do not beleive any of the past issues are unaddressed
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3582021-04-08T19:23:42 <jeremyrubin> if you would like to contest the solutions as they are, you should review the current proposed changes and comment on that
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3602021-04-08T19:25:29 <luke-jr> hack after hack is not addressing issues. nor does it justify disregarding community consensus.
3612021-04-08T19:25:33 <achow101> luke-jr: you should repeat them in the context of this proposal specifically. Many contributors/reviewers may not be aware of them because either they occurred in a venue that they were not aware of, or they occurred at a time where they were not active participants in development.
3622021-04-08T19:26:15 <achow101> if they have already been stated in the context of the proposal being reviewed, then please link them
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3642021-04-08T19:26:29 <jeremyrubin> further, there does seem to be a substantial body of agreeing devs on the approach put forward in 21377. so there can hardly be said to be consensus for any other approach either
3652021-04-08T19:26:30 <jnewbery> luke-jr: there is no evidence that your proposal has "community consensus"
3662021-04-08T19:27:10 <luke-jr> jnewbery: that is not true
3672021-04-08T19:27:38 <achow101> asserting it does not make it true or false
3682021-04-08T19:29:14 <jnewbery> luke-jr: I'll ask again: what is your aim for this meeting item? You've had a chance to raise your objections.
3692021-04-08T19:29:22 <achow101> "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
3702021-04-08T19:29:36 <luke-jr> anyone involved in the community knows there is consensus around BIP8.
3712021-04-08T19:29:51 <jeremyrubin> I don't have anything else to add on this matter; I think it should be relatively clear what sort of communications would be required to raise a tangible objection to 21377.
3722021-04-08T19:30:19 <aj> wumpus: (thanks for adding 21377 to hi pri)
3732021-04-08T19:30:46 <jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic meeting notes & timelines implied
3742021-04-08T19:31:50 <luke-jr> wumpus: reminder to add #19573 too
3752021-04-08T19:31:50 <wumpus> #topic Meeting notes & timelines implied (jeremyrubin)
3762021-04-08T19:31:50 <core-meetingbot> topic: Meeting notes & timelines implied (jeremyrubin)
3772021-04-08T19:31:52 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19573 | Replace unused BIP 9 logic with draft BIP 8 by luke-jr · Pull Request #19573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3782021-04-08T19:32:58 <wumpus> luke-jr: ok added
3792021-04-08T19:33:09 <wumpus> jeremyrubin: or was that a topic fo rnext week?
3802021-04-08T19:34:35 <wumpus> #endmeeting
3812021-04-08T19:34:35 <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
3822021-04-08T19:34:35 <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr 8 19:34:35 2021 UTC.
3832021-04-08T19:34:35 <core-meetingbot> Minutes: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-04-08-19.01.moin.txt
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3862021-04-08T19:36:10 <jnewbery> thanks wumpus!
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3892021-04-08T19:38:47 <jeremyrubin> Hi
3902021-04-08T19:38:55 <jeremyrubin> not sure if my previous messages made it through
3912021-04-08T19:39:12 <jeremyrubin> i got booted right after proposing a meeting topic and was unable to rejoin/reauth
3922021-04-08T19:39:14 <aj> nothing after your meeting topic made it through, so wumpus ended the meeting
3932021-04-08T19:39:29 <jeremyrubin> wumpus: it was intended to be for today
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3952021-04-08T19:39:45 <jeremyrubin> aj: do you think it needs to be discussed today?
3962021-04-08T19:40:06 <jeremyrubin> or is next week sufficient?
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3982021-04-08T19:40:46 <aj> jeremyrubin: could just ask outside of the meeting? waiting 'til next week probably answers the question on its own though...
3992021-04-08T19:42:45 <jeremyrubin> I think more or less -- for those who are still reading -- the point is that the rough timeline from the 1st meeting still seems viable, so short of something unexpected that's probably what people are working towards
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4012021-04-08T19:44:51 <jnewbery> jeremyrubin: what is that timeline?
4022021-04-08T19:44:56 <jeremyrubin> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-March/018715.html rough timeline is here
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4042021-04-08T19:45:37 <jeremyrubin> starttime is relatively flexible, as with endtime (nothing wrong with capturing signals earlier because min active height)
4052021-04-08T19:46:15 <jnewbery> thanks!
4062021-04-08T19:46:44 <jeremyrubin> the activation height should just be something around 707616, but the exact value doesn't matter that much
4072021-04-08T19:48:56 <jeremyrubin> (well, it does matter, we can pick whatever n*2016 looks like it will be near mid novemeber)
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4422021-04-08T21:20:42 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6664211be2b6...0c9597ce7db2
4432021-04-08T21:20:42 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 84912d4 Carl Dong: build: Remove spaces from variable-printing rules
4442021-04-08T21:20:43 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 44f6d4f Carl Dong: guix: Record precious directories and add guix-clean
4452021-04-08T21:20:45 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8f8b96f Carl Dong: guix: Update hint messages to mention guix-clean
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4482021-04-08T21:21:01 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21304: guix: Add guix-clean script + establish gc-root for container profiles (master...2021-02-guix-clean-script) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21304
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4532021-04-08T21:33:56 <jeremyrubin> does testmempoolaccept handle the case of [A -> B, B->C, C->D] etc?
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4552021-04-08T21:34:33 <jeremyrubin> or is each considered independently
4562021-04-08T21:34:37 <glozow> jeremyrubin: what do you mean?
4572021-04-08T21:34:41 <jeremyrubin> (Not packages)
4582021-04-08T21:34:42 <glozow> are A, B, C, and D transactions?
4592021-04-08T21:34:47 <jeremyrubin> outputs
4602021-04-08T21:35:02 <jeremyrubin> like assuming A->B is testmempool accept = true
4612021-04-08T21:35:10 <glozow> what does A->B mean?
4622021-04-08T21:35:12 <jeremyrubin> can B->C be true?
4632021-04-08T21:35:18 <jeremyrubin> Some output A creates some output B
4642021-04-08T21:35:38 <jeremyrubin> can there be dependencies between the txs in the array
4652021-04-08T21:35:42 <glozow> yes
4662021-04-08T21:35:45 <glozow> with #20833 i mean
4672021-04-08T21:35:53 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20833 | rpc/validation: enable packages through testmempoolaccept by glozow · Pull Request #20833 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4682021-04-08T21:36:01 <jeremyrubin> packages is a different thing
4692021-04-08T21:36:02 <glozow> on master you can only submit 1 at a time
4702021-04-08T21:36:05 <jeremyrubin> that's considering CPFP
4712021-04-08T21:36:33 <jeremyrubin> 1. rawtxs (json array, required) An array of hex strings of raw transactions.
4722021-04-08T21:36:51 <glozow> rawtxs can only have 1 tx on master
4732021-04-08T21:37:15 <jeremyrubin> ahh ok "Length must be one for now."
4742021-04-08T21:37:25 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: how is this distinct from packages?
4752021-04-08T21:37:37 <jeremyrubin> packages is a superset of this
4762021-04-08T21:37:50 <luke-jr> ?
4772021-04-08T21:37:54 <jeremyrubin> I'm not interested in applying CPFP logic
4782021-04-08T21:38:12 <glozow> do you define packages as just an array of transactions?
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4802021-04-08T21:38:29 <luke-jr> does 20833 do CPFP?
4812021-04-08T21:38:38 <sipa> cpfp is a transaction selection policy
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4832021-04-08T21:38:46 <luke-jr> "the expectation is that the results returned from testmempoolaccept are identical to what you'd get from test-then-submitting each transaction individually, in that order"
4842021-04-08T21:38:47 <sipa> that's independent from menpool acxwptance policies
4852021-04-08T21:38:55 <luke-jr> 20833's description suggests it doesn't do CPFP logic
4862021-04-08T21:39:12 <glozow> CPFP happens after mempool submission
4872021-04-08T21:39:19 <jeremyrubin> testmempoolaccept can fail due to insufficient fee tho correct?
4882021-04-08T21:39:21 <sipa> cpfp doesn't apply to mempool accwptance
4892021-04-08T21:39:28 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: yes
4902021-04-08T21:39:35 <sipa> jeremyrubin: tgat's where packages come in
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4922021-04-08T21:39:50 <jeremyrubin> that's my point
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4942021-04-08T21:40:04 <glozow> yes, but it's a small addition to make `testmempoolaccept` use the descendant feerate instead of base feerate
4952021-04-08T21:40:05 <luke-jr> â¦
4962021-04-08T21:40:28 <sipa> jeremyrubin: so i have no idea what you're asking about
4972021-04-08T21:40:45 <jeremyrubin> testmempoolaccept does check fees
4982021-04-08T21:40:50 <sipa> yes
4992021-04-08T21:40:51 <glozow> yes, obviously
5002021-04-08T21:40:58 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: for each tx, individually
5012021-04-08T21:41:06 <sipa> for now
5022021-04-08T21:41:14 <jeremyrubin> well only one tx is allowed for now anyways
5032021-04-08T21:41:15 <glozow> testmempoolaccept only takes 1 transaction right now.
5042021-04-08T21:41:17 <luke-jr> sipa: if it does anything different later, it should be optional IMO
5052021-04-08T21:41:26 <glozow> are we talking about behavior or master or?
5062021-04-08T21:41:28 <jeremyrubin> so if I have A -> B paying 10000 feerate, i'm not worried about if it can go in or not
5072021-04-08T21:41:34 <jeremyrubin> based on fees
5082021-04-08T21:41:38 <luke-jr> I imagine the use case is, you want to submit A now, B later
5092021-04-08T21:41:44 <jeremyrubin> but I still want to test if B -> C is valid
5102021-04-08T21:41:45 <luke-jr> and not wait for B, for A to get confirmed
5112021-04-08T21:41:52 <glozow> yes
5122021-04-08T21:42:32 <jeremyrubin> so I'm trying to figure out how I can test the validity of a child transaction from a parent I don't want in the mempool
5132021-04-08T21:42:39 <jeremyrubin> i just want to test it
5142021-04-08T21:42:40 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: using that PR
5152021-04-08T21:42:44 <glozow> then use 20833
5162021-04-08T21:42:56 <jeremyrubin> Ok, but there's no current way to do this?
5172021-04-08T21:42:58 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: if you need to bypass fee checks, use Knots
5182021-04-08T21:43:03 <glozow> no, there isn't
5192021-04-08T21:43:07 <jeremyrubin> no the fees aren't important
5202021-04-08T21:43:12 <glozow> except to disconnect your node
5212021-04-08T21:43:18 <jeremyrubin> I'm asking about the dependency graph
5222021-04-08T21:43:21 <luke-jr> actually, I didn't get 20833 in Knots yet :/
5232021-04-08T21:43:27 <jeremyrubin> glozow: that's probably the best bet for now
5242021-04-08T21:43:30 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: then 20833 is enough�
5252021-04-08T21:43:38 <glozow> 20833 works with dependencies
5262021-04-08T21:43:57 <jeremyrubin> 20833 would do it, I was just asking if there's something that works today that doesn't cover CPFP
5272021-04-08T21:44:02 <luke-jr> aha
5282021-04-08T21:44:10 <luke-jr> but 20833 does work today ;)
5292021-04-08T21:44:20 <glozow> :D
5302021-04-08T21:44:27 <glozow> needs review
5312021-04-08T21:44:34 <jeremyrubin> I'll take a look
5322021-04-08T21:44:44 <glozow> thanks!
5332021-04-08T21:44:46 <jeremyrubin> I understood 20833 to be focused on the CPFP issue
5342021-04-08T21:44:56 <jeremyrubin> but it's clear it's even more important now :)
5352021-04-08T21:45:41 <glozow> ð
5362021-04-08T21:46:00 <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: 20833 is explicitly not CPFP related
5372021-04-08T21:46:50 <jeremyrubin> does it apply CPFP rules?
5382021-04-08T21:47:07 <glozow> CPFP rules are applied during block template building
5392021-04-08T21:47:25 <glozow> i guess the answer to your question is no
5402021-04-08T21:47:35 <glozow> *not yet
5412021-04-08T21:48:04 <jeremyrubin> Ok, so the testmempoolaccept 20833 will fail if tx 0 of a chain pays low fee?
5422021-04-08T21:48:51 <glozow> yes, if the base feerate is too low, it will fail
5432021-04-08T21:48:51 <glozow> the fix for that is to just use descendant feerate instead, which I'm saving for a followup to 20833
5442021-04-08T21:49:01 <jeremyrubin> great, that answers my q
5452021-04-08T21:49:12 <glozow> cool!
5462021-04-08T21:49:38 <jeremyrubin> FWIW i think the way I define packages is cuts through the transaction graph which can be mined within a block
5472021-04-08T21:50:18 <jeremyrubin> so an array of txns is not a package nesc because there are arrays of txns which can't mine within a block (relative time locks, too many MB, etc)
5482021-04-08T21:50:34 <glozow> so if there are conflicts -> not a package?
5492021-04-08T21:50:46 <jeremyrubin> example?
5502021-04-08T21:50:53 <jeremyrubin> like [A -> B, A->C]?
5512021-04-08T21:50:56 <glozow> [A->B, A->C]
5522021-04-08T21:50:58 <glozow> yeah
5532021-04-08T21:51:05 <jeremyrubin> yeah I don't consider that a package?
5542021-04-08T21:51:11 <glozow> mm
5552021-04-08T21:51:17 <glozow> what about [B->C, A->B] ?
5562021-04-08T21:51:34 <jeremyrubin> well I think that depends on what your brackets mean
5572021-04-08T21:51:44 <glozow> i.e., does order matter?
5582021-04-08T21:52:17 <jeremyrubin> I think it would be wise to make sure that core only ever outputs packages in increasing ancestor order
5592021-04-08T21:52:26 <jeremyrubin> but that we should accept them in any order
5602021-04-08T21:52:44 <jeremyrubin> in particular, when mining you generate them in reverse order
5612021-04-08T21:53:00 <luke-jr> huh?
5622021-04-08T21:53:03 <Murch> hum?
5632021-04-08T21:53:05 <glozow> ?
5642021-04-08T21:53:17 <jeremyrubin> When you're mining you pick the thing with the best feerate and then take all the ancestors
5652021-04-08T21:53:22 <Murch> Nope
5662021-04-08T21:53:29 <jeremyrubin> and then later you sort them into ancestor order
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5682021-04-08T21:53:33 <Murch> Transactions must be sorted in topological order
5692021-04-08T21:53:34 <glozow> you pick by ancestor feerate, and you mine the ancestors first
5702021-04-08T21:53:45 <jeremyrubin> yeah you sort them after
5712021-04-08T21:54:02 <jeremyrubin> but the packages are visited reverse order
5722021-04-08T21:54:04 <Murch> You pick whole ancestor packages
5732021-04-08T21:54:32 <glozow> is that necessarily true? you could have parent with higher ancestor feerate than child, and you'd pick the parent first
5742021-04-08T21:54:54 <jeremyrubin> it is true -- you won't pick the child till later then
5752021-04-08T21:54:58 <Murch> Yeah, but then the parent would have a higher ancestor feerate and take precendence by itself anyway
5762021-04-08T21:56:45 <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0c9597ce7db28f5272a69bf0fbb36ce6b2520566/src/miner.cpp#L404
5772021-04-08T21:58:50 <jeremyrubin> anyways it's not super important, once they're in the block they're in consensus order
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5792021-04-08T21:59:25 <Murch> It groups each transaction with all of the transactions it depends on
5802021-04-08T21:59:48 <Murch> Then it picks the best of these ancestor packages per ancestorfeerate (i.e. the effective feerate of the whole package)
5812021-04-08T21:59:52 <Murch> then updates the mempool
5822021-04-08T22:01:34 <jeremyrubin> I don't see that in the code?
5832021-04-08T22:01:38 <jeremyrubin> Can you point me to a line
5842021-04-08T22:01:40 <jeremyrubin> What i see is:
5852021-04-08T22:01:50 <jeremyrubin> pick by ancestor score
5862021-04-08T22:02:18 <jeremyrubin> make sure the package fits
5872021-04-08T22:02:22 <Murch> Yeah, but transactions without ancestors are an ancestorpackage by themselves
5882021-04-08T22:02:42 <jeremyrubin> compute all the ancestors
5892021-04-08T22:02:59 <jeremyrubin> add them to the block in block sort order
5902021-04-08T22:03:08 <Murch> yes?
5912021-04-08T22:03:23 <Murch> But the "ancestorscore" is the effective feerate of a transaction with its ancestors
5922021-04-08T22:03:55 <glozow> before block assembly starts, the txns already know their ancestor fees and size. you just call `CalculateMempoolAncestors` to grab the mempool entries
5932021-04-08T22:04:30 <jeremyrubin> Yes, and the order those are visited in shows up in a reversed order
5942021-04-08T22:04:55 <jeremyrubin> this is relevent because the epoch memepool patches will literall put them in order of [B -> C, A->B]
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5962021-04-08T22:05:42 <jeremyrubin> So gloria's question is, is [B->C, A->B] still a package, or must it be [A->B, B->C]
5972021-04-08T22:05:57 <jeremyrubin> my answer is diff algorithms will generate a package set in different orders
5982021-04-08T22:06:08 <jeremyrubin> so we should recognize any order they show up in
5992021-04-08T22:06:18 <glozow> i mean a package communicated between peers
6002021-04-08T22:06:21 <jeremyrubin> but that we should also be careful to pick a single order if we ever e.g. print them out
6012021-04-08T22:06:38 <glozow> that's what we'd be interested in formalizing the definition for
6022021-04-08T22:07:05 <jeremyrubin> it's a good question, there's a DoS argument for picking a defined order because it's O(n log n) to sort self-side v.s. O(n) to verify
6032021-04-08T22:07:22 <glozow> what's n?
6042021-04-08T22:07:30 <Murch> Number of txs?
6052021-04-08T22:07:33 <jeremyrubin> I think n is the number of inputs
6062021-04-08T22:08:03 <jeremyrubin> but maybe it's just # of txs, would need to draw out the actual dependency calculating algorithm
6072021-04-08T22:09:09 <glozow> no, it'd depend on number of inputs
6082021-04-08T22:09:32 <jeremyrubin> there's also a good question of if we should have a canonical ordering that a package must be in, more so than block order
6092021-04-08T22:09:39 <jeremyrubin> since blocks are not canonically ordered
6102021-04-08T22:10:22 <Murch> Do you mean topologically ordered but with canonical order when there is multiple possibilities?
6112021-04-08T22:10:35 <jeremyrubin> correct
6122021-04-08T22:10:46 <jeremyrubin> e.g., input/vout order
6132021-04-08T22:10:48 <glozow> it would matter if you had package IDs
6142021-04-08T22:11:05 <jeremyrubin> glozow: good point, should prolly make a canonical ordering then :)
6152021-04-08T22:11:09 <jeremyrubin> glozow: I'd say figure out if there's any algorithmic advantage for having the txns in a specific order on the receiving side
6162021-04-08T22:11:33 <glozow> i'd say require them to be ordered
6172021-04-08T22:11:40 <glozow> it's pretty easy to figure out if a package is ordered correctly
6182021-04-08T22:11:44 <Murch> Well, topological order would be nice, not sure whether it's worthwhile to further restrain it
6192021-04-08T22:11:49 <glozow> should be the sender's burden to sort them
6202021-04-08T22:11:53 <jeremyrubin> Murch: package IDs
6212021-04-08T22:12:06 <jeremyrubin> if you want them to be hashable you need a canonical order
6222021-04-08T22:12:23 <glozow> e.g. topological order (by # of ancestors within package), lexicographic by txid to break ties
6232021-04-08T22:12:29 <jeremyrubin> but glozow in theory it's not that bad, a dirty client can always send you crap
6242021-04-08T22:12:39 <glozow> if they send you crap, just reject it
6252021-04-08T22:12:49 <glozow> the package - maybe not the txs within it
6262021-04-08T22:13:12 <Murch> Why would we need package ids?
6272021-04-08T22:13:15 <jeremyrubin> Anyways that seems like an OK plan, maybe lexicographic by wtxid tho
6282021-04-08T22:13:34 <glozow> to announce packages/getdata
6292021-04-08T22:13:48 <Murch> mh
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6312021-04-08T22:14:58 <Murch> Doesn't that mean that you could send a peer the same txs a bunch of times by generating each valid subset and announcing it as a separate package?
6322021-04-08T22:15:28 <jeremyrubin> Murch: correct, but you can ban peers which send you packages containing crap you already have I suppose?
6332021-04-08T22:15:34 <glozow> yeah
6342021-04-08T22:15:41 <jeremyrubin> You can also generate the subsets yourself and add their IDs to your bloom filter
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6362021-04-08T22:15:52 <jeremyrubin> altho idk if that's worth doing at all
6372021-04-08T22:15:54 <Murch> not if they send them from smal lto large
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6392021-04-08T22:16:10 <Murch> I'd say, only allow connected graphs to be sent as packages
6402021-04-08T22:16:24 <jeremyrubin> I think that's already a contstraint
6412021-04-08T22:16:38 <jeremyrubin> glozow: did you ever get the notes suhas and I put together last year about this stuff?
6422021-04-08T22:16:47 <Murch> AFAIU, that restraint has been losened?
6432021-04-08T22:16:57 <glozow> peers can already send you crap, so it's more about limiting how much time you spend looking at crap i think
6442021-04-08T22:17:10 <Murch> mh, good point
6452021-04-08T22:17:24 <jeremyrubin> glozow: I think it's important that packages as a concept are connected components
6462021-04-08T22:17:25 <glozow> jeremyrubin: which notes? I've seen a couple of his gists
6472021-04-08T22:17:34 <jeremyrubin> we can have metapackages that can be split into packages
6482021-04-08T22:17:36 <Murch> But at least they'd only send you announcements once so far and then wouldn't make you download the same transactions again and again?
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6502021-04-08T22:18:12 <jeremyrubin> but the notion of a package as a component is useful, and peers sneaking in unrelated crap to the component should be bannable IMO
6512021-04-08T22:19:03 <jeremyrubin> glozow: I'll try to find the notes
6522021-04-08T22:19:49 <glozow> i think the protocol for correctly-behaving senders would be to build packages as necessary
6532021-04-08T22:19:49 <glozow> and the receiver can try their best to distinguish between, e.g. an extra tx you already knew about and punishable garbage
6542021-04-08T22:20:14 <glozow> e.g. sender creates a package based on `filterinventoryknown` of their peers
6552021-04-08T22:20:28 <glozow> er, what's it called? the bloom filter for invs you've heard from the peer
6562021-04-08T22:21:43 <jeremyrubin> glozow: FWIW, make a hashtable with all txids ( O(n) ), scan all txns inputs against it (O(n)), count txns with all inputs not found
6572021-04-08T22:21:56 <jeremyrubin> I think that algorithm is O(n) and guarantees a single component
6582021-04-08T22:22:02 <jeremyrubin> no matter what order things are in
6592021-04-08T22:22:45 <Murch> I think that would still allow conflicting txs i.e. A and A' that both spend the same input?
6602021-04-08T22:24:12 <jeremyrubin> yep, that's still a component. conflict check can also be done either as a later part of validation or with a similar algorithm
6612021-04-08T22:24:55 <Murch> Right, would still be connected, but not a valid package
6622021-04-08T22:24:57 <glozow> you're doing this with transactions in your mempool you're relaying to peers right?
6632021-04-08T22:25:28 <jeremyrubin> a while ago i did some O(n) algorithm for this during block validation... but it was unpopular
6642021-04-08T22:25:45 <jeremyrubin> it turns out we do all the connection logic in blocks while hitting the utxo caches
6652021-04-08T22:25:57 <jeremyrubin> but you can context-free validate block tx connectivity
6662021-04-08T22:26:40 <glozow> sure. why do you want to do that? check tx connectivity before you start looking at scripts?
6672021-04-08T22:26:48 <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14837
6682021-04-08T22:26:57 <jeremyrubin> it would let you parallelize better
6692021-04-08T22:27:31 <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bitcoin/blob/0425c6409000aeb3270ba8f9c30d2746c5c5b784/src/validation.cpp#L3078-L3086
6702021-04-08T22:28:46 <glozow> you wouldn't even get to this part until after u verify the pow
6712021-04-08T22:29:47 <glozow> why would someone put duplicate inputs + do the pow just for you to verify a tiny bit slower?
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6742021-04-08T22:33:13 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21640: [0.21] Introduce DeferredSignatureChecker and have SignatureExtractorClass subclass it (0.21...0.21-sig-ext) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21640
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6762021-04-08T22:33:47 <jeremyrubin> Ah it's not just that, there are other things you can do when you check all these properties at once
6772021-04-08T22:34:31 <jeremyrubin> i can try to find the experimental branch if you're curious, but don't spend too much time since it seems like a dead end
6782021-04-08T22:35:59 <jeremyrubin> When you're doing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0c9597ce7db28f5272a69bf0fbb36ce6b2520566/src/validation.cpp#L2127
6792021-04-08T22:36:14 <jeremyrubin> you have to process txns in block order, so it's serial O(n)
6802021-04-08T22:36:35 <jeremyrubin> but if you do a small amount of pre-work (which is also O(n), but small c)
6812021-04-08T22:37:20 <jeremyrubin> then you can do the rest of the tx validation in parallel because you're not relying on the UpdateCoins calls being serial
6822021-04-08T22:37:55 <jeremyrubin> not a big deal, but the old PR might be interesting to you for 'algorithms to check properties of groups of txns'
6832021-04-08T22:38:47 <glozow> yeah it's interesting, thanks for sharing
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