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912022-04-07T09:06:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/41720a1f540e...d844b5e79994
922022-04-07T09:06:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09f32cf glozow: [docs] package feerate
932022-04-07T09:06:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 17a8ffd glozow: [packages/policy] use package feerate in package validation
942022-04-07T09:06:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1b93748 glozow: [validation] try individual validation before package validation
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972022-04-07T09:06:21 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24152: policy / validation: CPFP fee bumping within packages (master...package-cpfp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24152
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1002022-04-07T09:07:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d844b5e79994...5c80d9b72d6b
1012022-04-07T09:07:35 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b72925e fanquake: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint
1022022-04-07T09:07:35 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5c80d9b fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24790: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint
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1052022-04-07T09:07:49 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24790: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint (master...remove_qt_lint) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24790
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1142022-04-07T09:56:00 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5c80d9b72d6b...323d4c09c090
1152022-04-07T09:56:00 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fff9141 phyBrackets: refactor: Remove deduplication of data in rollingbloom bench
1162022-04-07T09:56:00 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 323d4c0 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24784: refactor: deduplicate integer serialization i...
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1192022-04-07T09:56:17 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24784: refactor: deduplicate integer serialization in RollingBloom benchmark (master...rebased_fixedd_24088) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24784
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1302022-04-07T10:44:18 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #24159: tests: commit-script-check.sh - use gsed if exists (master...1643135199-test-lint-comit-script) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24159
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1392022-04-07T11:35:09 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24697: refactor: Address relay time refactors (master...2203-refactor-addr-relay-time-ð¦) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24697
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1472022-04-07T11:58:19 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24796: lint: misc updates & fixes (master...spelling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24796
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1572022-04-07T12:36:27 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24796: lint: misc updates & fixes (master...spelling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24796
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1632022-04-07T13:33:11 <laanwj> huh
1642022-04-07T13:33:39 <laanwj> oh, misdetected merge
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1672022-04-07T13:54:56 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #24797: test: compare `/chaininfo` response with `getblockchaininfo` RPC (master...2022-04-compare-blockchaininfo-rest-chaininfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24797
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1702022-04-07T14:11:17 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #24798: [POC] build: Hello Qt 6 (master...220406-qt6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24798
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1892022-04-07T15:42:41 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #24799: Add test case mimicking issue 24765 (master...202204_try24765) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24799
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2002022-04-07T16:18:34 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] KevinMusgrave opened pull request #24800: lint: convert lint-python-mutable-default-parameters.sh to Python (master...port-lint-script-to-python) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24800
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2162022-04-07T18:12:23 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Eunoia1729 opened pull request #24802: lint: convert format strings linter test to python (master...lint-format-strings-py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24802
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2232022-04-07T19:00:17 <laanwj> #startmeeting
2242022-04-07T19:00:17 <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Apr 7 19:00:17 2022 UTC. The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
2252022-04-07T19:00:18 <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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2272022-04-07T19:00:38 <hebasto> hi
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2292022-04-07T19:00:55 <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
2302022-04-07T19:00:57 <laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
2312022-04-07T19:01:04 <jonatack> Â hi
2322022-04-07T19:01:06 <fanquake> hi
2332022-04-07T19:01:07 <laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
2342022-04-07T19:01:08 <sipa> hi
2352022-04-07T19:01:18 <cfields> hi
2362022-04-07T19:01:42 <laanwj> no meeting topics have been proposed in advance (you can propose meeting topics with #proposedmeetingtopic <topic> during any time of the week)
2372022-04-07T19:01:49 <laanwj> any last minute ones?
2382022-04-07T19:01:54 <jonatack> #proposedmeetingtopic approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (e.g. adjusted time)
2392022-04-07T19:02:18 <laanwj> ok!
2402022-04-07T19:02:34 <lightlike> hi
2412022-04-07T19:02:56 <laanwj> let's start with high priority for review as usual
2422022-04-07T19:03:01 <laanwj> #topic High priority for review
2432022-04-07T19:03:02 <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
2442022-04-07T19:03:38 <laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 10 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK
2452022-04-07T19:03:58 <fanquake> I'll add #22380. Should probably get that in at some point
2462022-04-07T19:03:58 <laanwj> anything to add/remove, or that is on the list and almost ready for merge?
2472022-04-07T19:03:59 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22380 | build: add and use C_STANDARD and CXX_STANDARD in depends by fanquake · Pull Request #22380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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2492022-04-07T19:04:55 <laanwj> fanquake: ok
2502022-04-07T19:07:02 <laanwj> oh PSA: i've started testing BIP324 P2P v2 (#24545) on a node, let me know if you want to also test and connect
2512022-04-07T19:07:04 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24545 | BIP324: Enable v2 P2P encrypted transport by dhruv · Pull Request #24545 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2522022-04-07T19:07:17 <jonatack> laanwj: +1
2532022-04-07T19:07:19 <laanwj> (in private is fine, this is not a meeting topic)
2542022-04-07T19:07:22 <jonatack> great, i plan to
2552022-04-07T19:07:50 <laanwj> cool!
2562022-04-07T19:08:10 <lightlike> maybe #21726 could be close (after next rebase)?
2572022-04-07T19:08:13 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21726 | Improve Indices on pruned nodes via prune blockers by fjahr · Pull Request #21726 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2582022-04-07T19:08:42 <sipa> note that BIP324's spec is undergoing some changes still... the protocol will likely not be interoperable
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2602022-04-07T19:09:25 <laanwj> lightlike: it does still have some unaddrssed comments, agree it's close though
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2622022-04-07T19:10:06 <laanwj> sipa: right, that's good to make clear
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2642022-04-07T19:11:52 <laanwj> #topic Approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (jonatack)
2652022-04-07T19:11:52 <core-meetingbot> topic: Approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (jonatack)
2662022-04-07T19:12:03 <jonatack> hi! i've prepared a dozen lines on this then propose we open up for discussion
2672022-04-07T19:12:11 <jonatack> there has been discussion recently on the topic of removing the adjusted time code
2682022-04-07T19:12:21 <jonatack> which has been been in bitcoin core since the first commit in the git log
2692022-04-07T19:12:33 <jonatack> there is some good refactoring that can be done
2702022-04-07T19:12:38 <jonatack> nevertheless, i'm somewhat uncomfortable with the approach i'm seeing
2712022-04-07T19:12:57 <jonatack> in that we may be making what are essentially product management decisions, to drop a feature and configuration option
2722022-04-07T19:13:21 <jonatack> without a deprecation period or optionality for users
2732022-04-07T19:13:52 <laanwj> i like the approach to first default the setting to 0
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2752022-04-07T19:13:55 <jonatack> the idea seems to be based eagerness to get started removing it and on on speculation or hand-wavey logic about what users would do (or never do)
2762022-04-07T19:14:07 <jonatack> i worry that it's not necessarily a good basis for making these decisions, and in some contexts a flimsy one
2772022-04-07T19:14:16 <jonatack> istm users aren't necessarily logical, and if users can do something, then some likely will
2782022-04-07T19:14:23 <jonatack> i checked in with a couple of well-known Bitcoin PMs today and they aren't aware
2792022-04-07T19:14:24 <jonatack> of any Bitcoin Core user studies on this topic (which doesn't seem surprising,
2802022-04-07T19:14:24 <jonatack> and maybe they are busy in miami atm, but the answer was: "no idea")
2812022-04-07T19:14:26 <laanwj> my main problem with adjusted time is that it just doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it is a false promise, and unsafe
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2832022-04-07T19:15:09 <sipa> i wouldn't consider time adjustment to be a user-visible feature
2842022-04-07T19:15:19 <jonatack> yes. though if we don't know if people depend on it, perhaps we can proceed on that basis
2852022-04-07T19:15:21 <fanquake> Yes. This isn't quite like deprecating a well-used RPC
2862022-04-07T19:15:27 <sipa> removing/changing it shouldn't affect user experience
2872022-04-07T19:15:28 <laanwj> how can people *depend* on it?
2882022-04-07T19:15:51 <jonatack> in conclusion, it seems like a deprecation process for configuration options would be of help here, and maybe save us discussion going forward.
2892022-04-07T19:15:54 <fanquake> If we want a period of deprecation, I'm also unsure how changing the default helps things? That isn't going to communicate anything to users who are actually setting it right?
2902022-04-07T19:16:21 <laanwj> i would agree for user visible wallet features and such
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2922022-04-07T19:16:57 <sipa> RPC / REST / Wallet behavior / UI features / ... changes need a deprecation plan
2932022-04-07T19:17:28 <laanwj> yes
2942022-04-07T19:17:30 <sipa> but time adjustment is just an internal algorithm... if we believe that not doing it is better than what we have, we should get rid of it
2952022-04-07T19:17:45 <fanquake> and if the feature is broken, and that brokenness is leaking out into other parts of the codebase, it would just seem better to remove it.
2962022-04-07T19:18:33 <fanquake> for anyone following along the related PRs are #24606 and #24662
2972022-04-07T19:18:35 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24606 | Change -maxtimeadjustment default from 70 minutes to 0 by jonatack · Pull Request #24606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2982022-04-07T19:18:36 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24662 | addrman: Use system time instead of adjusted network time by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #24662 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2992022-04-07T19:18:39 <jonatack> istm that starting by changing the default first, for a release or so, reduces risk and provides optionality for us (i.e. code reversion) and for users -- unless there is an urgent need for change, or unless we are certain that it no one uses or depends on it
3002022-04-07T19:18:49 <laanwj> there are some things we'd really want to be careful around, like anything that potentialy causes coins to be unspendable, or makes old wallets unusable
3012022-04-07T19:19:45 <sipa> if we're unsure that not doing adjustment is better than what we have, defaulting it to max 0 minutes at first makes it somewhat easier to reintroduce
3022022-04-07T19:20:01 <laanwj> yes
3032022-04-07T19:20:03 <sipa> but that's more about how certain we are it's an improvement, than about user expectations
3042022-04-07T19:22:35 <laanwj> in any case, i'm fine with first defaulting it to 0 for a release, then if no one reports problems due to that (however unlikely), really remove it a major release later
3052022-04-07T19:22:52 <fanquake> I think turning the option into a no-op, without making it somehow apparent to users who are currently using it, would surely also just undermine user expectations if anything?
3062022-04-07T19:23:12 <laanwj> no, if you remove it, specifying it should be an error
3072022-04-07T19:23:16 <laanwj> silently ignoring options is really bad
3082022-04-07T19:23:34 <fanquake> by no-op I mean changing the default to 0
3092022-04-07T19:23:56 <fanquake> then we'd have an option that is confusing / doesn't do anything for new users
3102022-04-07T19:23:58 <laanwj> yes, but you can mention it in the release notes
3112022-04-07T19:24:08 <fanquake> and for anyone already setting it, they just wont notice anyway
3122022-04-07T19:24:28 <fanquake> if anything you'd probably be better off with just the release note?
3132022-04-07T19:24:30 <laanwj> that if they rely on the feature (unlikely), they can specify the option for now
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3152022-04-07T19:24:45 <laanwj> well if it causes problems they can report it as an issue?
3162022-04-07T19:24:50 <laanwj> then set the setting
3172022-04-07T19:25:03 <laanwj> it's easier to do without recompile
3182022-04-07T19:25:06 <sipa> if we want people to complain if they're intentionally setting the option, because they rely on it, we should remove the option to configure it first
3192022-04-07T19:25:29 <sipa> ... but I can't imagine that being the case, really
3202022-04-07T19:25:31 <laanwj> yea, ok...
3212022-04-07T19:25:43 <lightlike> I don't really see how changing it globally to 0 reduces risk, I'd think it's more risky. Removing it step by step makes reviewer think about the location it is used, and about possible consequences. And maybe there are completely different things to take into account in validation than in addrman.
3222022-04-07T19:25:43 <laanwj> maybe log a deprecation notice first
3232022-04-07T19:25:47 <_aj_> for this, it seems easier to fix your computer's time than to complain about it...
3242022-04-07T19:26:02 <sipa> +1 aj
3252022-04-07T19:26:17 <laanwj> yes, if you know you have problems with you rsystem time, it's better to fix it at the source
3262022-04-07T19:26:57 <jonatack> users may not behave logically or the way we think they do, though
3272022-04-07T19:27:05 <laanwj> lightlike: agree, in addrman it seems pointless in any case
3282022-04-07T19:27:27 <fanquake> there's not much we can do about a user who just refuses to fix their clock
3292022-04-07T19:27:38 <_aj_> (adding a gui warning if your peers are advertising a different time than you have could be useful, though; i thought that was mentioned in the PRs, can't remember if it went anywhere)
3302022-04-07T19:27:45 <laanwj> the clock can't be *that* far off anyway
3312022-04-07T19:27:47 <fanquake> they've probably got other non-bitcoin issues in that case too
3322022-04-07T19:27:55 <laanwj> as it won't compensate that far
3332022-04-07T19:27:58 <laanwj> right
3342022-04-07T19:28:02 <jonatack> lightlike: that seems orthogonal (reviewer approach)
3352022-04-07T19:28:13 <sipa> being even minutes off probably doesn't hurt much even
3362022-04-07T19:28:28 <sipa> and we don't correct more than 60 or 70 minutes iirc?
3372022-04-07T19:28:36 <laanwj> sipa: right
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3392022-04-07T19:29:24 <laanwj> pretty sure there are many things more time sensitive than bitcoin, e.g. 2fa tokens
3402022-04-07T19:29:40 <sipa> indeed
3412022-04-07T19:29:48 <sipa> that was different in 2009
3422022-04-07T19:30:35 <laanwj> right, i don't think ntp was even default on most OSes back then
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3442022-04-07T19:31:26 <sipa> ntp being unauthenticated is a problem, probably a bigger one than the issues enabled by bitcoin's time adjustment... but nothing we can do about
3452022-04-07T19:33:00 <laanwj> i mean if bitcoin's time adjustment was a serious contender for protecting against ntp attacks things would be different, but it is effectively unmaintained, never reasoned about code, with known unfixed issues for years
3462022-04-07T19:33:30 <laanwj> but i feel we already had this discussion very recently
3472022-04-07T19:34:49 <jonatack> yes, it's more the process that's in question i think
3482022-04-07T19:34:52 <laanwj> i get the idea this gets really blown out of proportion compared to the impact
3492022-04-07T19:35:21 <laanwj> there's probably a few more risky things we merge each week than this particular deprecation
3502022-04-07T19:35:31 <fanquake> Yea. Getting rid of this is hardly like getting rid of getinfo
3512022-04-07T19:35:37 <laanwj> right
3522022-04-07T19:36:10 <sipa> agree
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3552022-04-07T19:37:40 <laanwj> jonatack: how would you propose to move forward with this, then
3562022-04-07T19:39:24 <laanwj> i mean the "set the default to 0" PR is yours so i guess that'd be the first step?
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3582022-04-07T19:39:39 <laanwj> then what next release?
3592022-04-07T19:40:00 <jonatack> laanwj: when i was doing PM at L'Oreal a looong time ago (early 90s) it was hammered into me to never guess or assume what users do. I don't feel competent to say more than that here yet
3602022-04-07T19:41:05 <jonatack> and that's maybe not transferable to this context, but if we're not in a hurry and not sure, yeah
3612022-04-07T19:42:10 <jonatack> i could be wrong of course, and will learn from why
3622022-04-07T19:42:19 <laanwj> i guess that's good general advice, but to do development at all you need to make some assumptions, like in a way a program is a set of assumptions, if not, everyone would have to write their own for their specific context and situation
3632022-04-07T19:42:33 <_aj_> hmm, shouldn't the version messages listening nodes receive be able to give a good indication how out-of-sync random nodes tend to be?
3642022-04-07T19:43:04 <fanquake> my assumption is that basically everyone running a node, other than people in this channel, have likely never even heard of this option, let alone changed it in some meaningful way
3652022-04-07T19:43:33 <sipa> _aj_: the numbers may be skewed because those numbers themselves are subject to adjustment?
3662022-04-07T19:44:38 <_aj_> sipa: and doesn't look like they're logged after the buffer gets filled either
3672022-04-07T19:45:17 <sipa> jonatack: I think we shouldn't think of configuration options themselves as features; they may be part of one, but not on their own. And for configuration options, I like the general advice I once heard: don't add a means to configure if you can't explain or give advice about when someone should set it. For maxtimeadjustment my advice would be: set it to 0, because if you have a need to set it to anything else your system is broken.
3682022-04-07T19:45:33 <laanwj> in any case, that's not a deprecation plan
3692022-04-07T19:45:41 <_aj_> sipa: i guess non bitcoind nodes don't do adjustment, so messages from light clients might give an indication of how many systems are out of sync?
3702022-04-07T19:46:04 <laanwj> sipa: right
3712022-04-07T19:46:28 <sipa> _aj_: That'd only tell us how many light clients are out of sync, which may be very different from how often bitcoin core nodes are.
3722022-04-07T19:46:41 <sipa> (in positive or negative sense)
3732022-04-07T19:47:19 <laanwj> id say light clients would tend to be biased towards phones which have many ways of potential time synchronization
3742022-04-07T19:47:28 <jonatack> sipa: agree. but how to remove a config option once it's there?
3752022-04-07T19:47:53 <fanquake> my deprecation plan would just be to just remove the option, and all of the old, broken code, prior to the 24.x branch off. If anyone who was using it even notices, and then for some reason, can't seem to operate without it, they could remain on 23.x while we figure out a non-broken, actually reasoned about alternative, that we could explain to them how to use (if we even want to do something like that going forward).
3762022-04-07T19:48:03 <laanwj> jonatack: that should be considered on a case by case basis i think, like what and how much effect does it have
3772022-04-07T19:48:08 <jonatack> (this may come up again if we add sat/vB config options to replace BTC/kvB ones)
3782022-04-07T19:48:34 <sipa> jonatack: I think that's different; that's RPC, which is a user interface.
3792022-04-07T19:48:53 <sipa> There we need migration options, and be sensitive on people relying on it.
3802022-04-07T19:48:54 <lightlike> _aj_: the behavior used to be different for inbound/outbound (until #23695). For outbound connections, we always used the unadjusted time I think.
3812022-04-07T19:48:56 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23695 | p2p: Always serialize local timestamp for version msg by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #23695 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3822022-04-07T19:49:22 <laanwj> fanquake: right! we shouldn't forget people always have the option of staying on an older release until something is resolved
3832022-04-07T19:49:23 <sipa> lightlike: Oh, interesting.
3842022-04-07T19:49:52 <laanwj> it's not some kind of cloud service where people are forced to the newest version
3852022-04-07T19:50:48 <fanquake> Yes, and if it comes to it, and there's one stubborn user who just wont budge, I'll buy them a fancy new computer, with a working clock, and we remain forgetful of this code
3862022-04-07T19:50:58 <sipa> A deprecation plan for time adjustment may be (a) just removing it and see who complains (because of a well-reasoned assumption that nobody actually needs it). (b) removing it, but adding for 1 or 2 major releases a trigger if it's set that explains why it was removed, and what to do about it (c) using something like -deprecatedrpc where you inform bitcoind that you're working on getting rid of your dependency on it, but need it for a little while longer.
3872022-04-07T19:51:38 <sipa> But there is more at stake here than just removing the "be tolerant to bad clocks" feature - having it in the first place I think is a (albeit small) risk on itself to the network.
3882022-04-07T19:51:42 <_aj_> ("secure ntp" aka "nts" is a thing these days apparently)
3892022-04-07T19:52:34 <laanwj> _aj_: which is the place where this should be solved, by people who study it and are specialized in it, fixing internet time sync is out of scope for bitcoin
3902022-04-07T19:53:49 <laanwj> i tend toward either (1) default the option to 0 for 24.0, then remove it entirely in 25.0 or 2) just remove it entirely for 24.0, we'll see if people complain
3912022-04-07T19:54:15 <laanwj> with 'remove it' i mean removing both the option and the functionality
3922022-04-07T19:54:44 <sipa> _aj_: So, actually, we can observe how much nodes are off just fine, on inbound connections, because bitcoind on outbound seems to not be using adjusted time.
3932022-04-07T19:54:49 <fanquake> My vote is for 2), and the further refactoring / code improvements it will enable
3942022-04-07T19:54:59 <sipa> I'm fine with both (1) and (2).
3952022-04-07T19:55:05 <_aj_> sipa: need to update logging to actually log that info though, yeah
3962022-04-07T19:55:11 <laanwj> fanquake: is it blocking some other things?
3972022-04-07T19:56:36 <fanquake> my understanding is that the affected code overlaps with other addrman / time related refactors, migrating further towards chrono etc
3982022-04-07T19:56:57 <fanquake> unsure about in validation, I don't think there is a PR open for the removal there yet either
3992022-04-07T19:57:16 <laanwj> re: "it's been in there since the first git release", we really shouldn't be sentimental about code, it'll always be there in git history :)
4002022-04-07T19:57:49 <fanquake> in the worst case everything can always just be recovered from there too
4012022-04-07T19:57:58 <fanquake> there are some demons hiding in .git
4022022-04-07T19:58:00 <laanwj> right
4032022-04-07T19:58:22 <jonatack> there is indeed user folklore about it but agree about not being sentimental
4042022-04-07T19:58:44 <jonatack> the folklore can remain without the code
4052022-04-07T19:59:29 <laanwj> exactly!
4062022-04-07T20:00:01 <_aj_> okay, i've got some logging going, see if i catch any peers with a signfiicant delta
4072022-04-07T20:00:31 <laanwj> and with that, we should probably close the meeting
4082022-04-07T20:00:43 <sipa> it is indeed robot time
4092022-04-07T20:00:45 <jonatack> oops, yes
4102022-04-07T20:00:47 <laanwj> #endmeeting
4112022-04-07T20:00:47 <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
4122022-04-07T20:00:47 <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr 7 20:00:47 2022 UTC.
4132022-04-07T20:00:47 <core-meetingbot> Minutes: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-04-07-19.00.moin.txt
4142022-04-07T20:01:00 <sipa> (https://www.robotreboot.com)
4152022-04-07T20:01:25 *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4162022-04-07T20:01:25 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #24781: build, qt: Drop unneeded direct dependency on freetype (master...220406-freetype) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24781
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4182022-04-07T20:01:47 <lightlike> _aj_: might be interesting to look at inbound/outbound peers separately, see if there is a statistical difference.
4192022-04-07T20:03:57 <laanwj> clearly the real solution is to make bitcoin consensus independent of clock time :p
4202022-04-07T20:04:09 <sipa> ACK
4212022-04-07T20:04:36 <fanquake> 1 less dependency
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4232022-04-07T20:06:20 <_aj_> laanwj: from timechain to timelesschain?
4242022-04-07T20:07:31 <_aj_> lightlike: 2022-04-07T20:06:37Z VERSION message delta=-76 nTime=1649361921 ip=XXX inbound ver=70015 subver=/Satoshi:0.20.1/ -- is what i'm getting (ip redacted)
4252022-04-07T20:08:31 <_aj_> + LogPrintf("VERSION message delta=%s nTime=%s ip=%s %s ver=%d subver=%s\n", nTimeOffset, nTime, pfrom.addr.ToString(), pfrom.ConnectionTypeAsString(), pfrom.nVersion, cleanSubVer);
4262022-04-07T20:09:09 <sipa> _aj_: I have a node with 260 incoming connections (no idea if that's a lot or not now). Want me to run that?
4272022-04-07T20:09:49 <jonatack> sipa: how much uptime to get that many? o-O
4282022-04-07T20:10:08 <sipa> $ ./src/bitcoin-cli uptime
4292022-04-07T20:10:08 <sipa> 537246
4302022-04-07T20:10:09 <_aj_> sipa: could be fun? bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq .[].timeoffset | sort -n -- for current connections?
4312022-04-07T20:10:11 <sipa> less than a week
4322022-04-07T20:10:28 <jonatack> huh
4332022-04-07T20:10:34 <laanwj> _aj_: timeisonlyanillusionchain
4342022-04-07T20:11:22 <_aj_> laanwj: time is only an allusion
4352022-04-07T20:11:30 <sipa> $ ./src/bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq '.[] | select(.inbound) | select(.timeoffset>0) | .timeoffset' | wc
4362022-04-07T20:11:30 <sipa> 8 8 20
4372022-04-07T20:11:58 <sipa> 8 out of 253 inbound connections have timeoffset>0
4382022-04-07T20:12:05 <sipa> 2 have timeoffset>1
4392022-04-07T20:12:16 <sipa> those two are 30s and 3788s off
4402022-04-07T20:12:33 <jonatack> i've generally been -4 here per getnetworkinfo
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4432022-04-07T20:13:09 <_aj_> i have a 0.19.0.1 node that claims an offset of 1046 (17min) and a nodes.mom.market:0.2 (?) one that says -1795
4442022-04-07T20:13:29 <sipa> kanzure: gnusha.org logging off this channels seems to have stopped
4452022-04-07T20:15:25 <sipa> the 3788s off one is a /Satoshi:0.16.2/ node
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4472022-04-07T20:27:01 <laanwj> i also have two nodes.mom.market connections that have timeoffsets -1794 and -1795, i think they made a coding mistake where they send the local time instead of utc
4482022-04-07T20:27:17 *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4492022-04-07T20:27:17 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Eunoia1729 opened pull request #24803: linnt: convert submodule linter test to Python (master...lint-submodule-py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24803
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4512022-04-07T20:28:06 <laanwj> though that's... half an hour, no, that wouldn't make sense
4522022-04-07T20:31:11 <lightlike> can you geolocate the ip, if they are from some place on earth with a weird 30min time zone?
4532022-04-07T20:31:21 <jonatack> yes ^^
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4572022-04-07T20:44:53 <laanwj> it seems to be the same node, connected over ipv4 and ipv6, and it's in some datacenter in the Netherlands (UpCloud Ltd)
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4592022-04-07T20:46:31 <laanwj> so no, no explanation
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4622022-04-07T20:55:59 <laanwj> sipa: you probably want to use timeoffset!=0 in your query, not >0
4632022-04-07T20:56:14 <sipa> Oh, right.
4642022-04-07T20:56:28 <laanwj> (no, jq doesn't have an abs function)
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4662022-04-07T20:57:11 <sipa> Sorry, my numbers above are totally off.
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4772022-04-07T21:20:33 <jonatack> â¿ ./src/bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq '.[] | select(.inbound) | select(.timeoffset!=0) | .timeoffset' | wc
4782022-04-07T21:20:33 <jonatack> Â Â Â Â 25Â Â Â Â Â 25Â Â Â Â Â 92
4792022-04-07T21:21:45 <jonatack> out of 45 (27 in, 18 out, node restarted an hour ago)
4802022-04-07T21:23:15 <jonatack> 3 out of 27 in
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4842022-04-07T21:30:32 <jonatack> sorry, 25 out of 27 inbounds have timeoffset != 0
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