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202022-10-27T02:09:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ViralTaco opened pull request #26399: Fix #24049: signed integer overflow in `SeenLocal` (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26399
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1122022-10-27T10:03:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ec92d23fb892...2242de16cc59
1132022-10-27T10:03:08 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0cc23fc Elichai Turkel: Fix typo in comment SHA256->SHA512
1142022-10-27T10:03:08 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2242de1 glozow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26394: Fix typo in comment SHA256->SHA512
1152022-10-27T10:03:21 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow merged pull request #26394: Fix typo in comment SHA256-SHA512 (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26394
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1392022-10-27T11:58:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack closed pull request #26369: rpc: fix `getblockstats` for genesis block (master...202210-rpc-support_getblockstats_for_genesis_block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26369
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1472022-10-27T12:38:46 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow pushed 2 commits to 24.x: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bb5bcf32baeb...d22cc74837a3
1482022-10-27T12:38:47 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/24.x e23def8 dergoegge: [net processing] Handle IsContinuationOfLowWorkHeadersSync return value co...
1492022-10-27T12:38:47 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/24.x d22cc74 glozow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26382: [24.x] p2p: Handle IsContinuationOfLowWorkHea...
1502022-10-27T12:39:09 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow merged pull request #26382: [24.x] p2p: Handle IsContinuationOfLowWorkHeadersSync return value correctly when new headers sync is started (24.x...2022-10-backport-26355) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26382
1512022-10-27T12:56:59 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2242de16cc59...39710f563558
1522022-10-27T12:57:00 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b8b59ff w0xlt: gui: update the screen after loading wallet
1532022-10-27T12:57:00 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 39710f5 Hennadii Stepanov: Merge bitcoin-core/gui#665: Switch to the selected wallet after loading
1542022-10-27T12:57:00 *** dermoth <dermoth!~dermoth@user/dermoth> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1552022-10-27T12:57:02 <bitcoin-git> [gui] hebasto merged pull request #665: Switch to the selected wallet after loading (master...load_wallet_signal) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/665
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1652022-10-27T14:01:43 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mruddy reopened pull request #24957: prune, import: allow pruning to work during loadblock import (master...issue_23852_import_prune) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24957
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1672022-10-27T14:17:12 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/39710f563558...bd478890c513
1682022-10-27T14:17:12 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7028365 Hennadii Stepanov: ci: Make `getopt` path architecture agnostic
1692022-10-27T14:17:12 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master da16893 Hennadii Stepanov: ci: Use `macos-ventura-xcode:14.1` image for "macOS native" task
1702022-10-27T14:17:12 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd47889 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26388: ci: Use `macos-ventura-xcode:14.1` image for ...
1712022-10-27T14:17:27 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #26388: ci: Use `macos-ventura-xcode:14.1` image for "macOS native" task (master...221025-ventura) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26388
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1882022-10-27T15:34:18 <NorrinRadd> Is there any group development that occurs, where some devs can actively learn from other devs?
1892022-10-27T15:35:02 <sipa> https://bitcoincore.reviews/
1902022-10-27T15:41:38 <Earnestly> NorrinRadd: Consider also https://bitcoinops.org/ which provides more digest summaries about various efforts
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1932022-10-27T16:19:18 <NorrinRadd> sipa, Earnestly, thanks, I'll check both of those out
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2042022-10-27T17:18:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bd478890c513...551c8e9526d2
2052022-10-27T17:18:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eb679a7 w0xlt: rpc: make `address` field optional
2062022-10-27T17:18:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 551c8e9 Andrew Chow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26349: rpc: make `address` field optional `list{tran...
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2112022-10-27T17:58:30 <luke-jr> FWIW, I'm finding some of the arguments against full RBF to be semi-convincing - as reasons to leave the default off, but not to remove the option
2122022-10-27T17:59:06 <luke-jr> (note, not fully convincing :p)
2132022-10-27T18:00:24 <_aj_> luke-jr: hey, why does knots have a service bit for full rbf but no preferential peering?
2142022-10-27T18:01:09 <instagibbs> potentially preferentially non-peering to fullrbf? :)
2152022-10-27T18:01:24 *** jonatack <jonatack!~jonatack@user/jonatack> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2162022-10-27T18:02:10 <_aj_> luke-jr: (or is it just "patches welcome" ?)
2172022-10-27T18:07:19 <luke-jr> _aj_: no particular reason; didn't seem important enough?
2182022-10-27T18:07:41 <_aj_> luke-jr: what's the point of the service bit without preferential peering?
2192022-10-27T18:07:51 <luke-jr> _aj_: and the code paths are such that I'd prefer to have anything in that area reviewed :x
2202022-10-27T18:08:12 <luke-jr> _aj_: so other nodes can preferentially peer
2212022-10-27T18:08:20 <_aj_> luke-jr: ah that's not quite "patches welcome" but near enough
2222022-10-27T18:08:23 <luke-jr> eg, petertodd used to maintain one
2232022-10-27T18:15:34 <lightlike> having the service bit also allows manual preferential peering via "addnode"
2242022-10-27T18:18:01 <luke-jr> lightlike: you could do that without a service bit tho?
2252022-10-27T18:18:58 <lightlike> but how would you know peers supporting full-rbf if they don't advertise that in their service bits?
2262022-10-27T18:21:28 *** Zenton <Zenton!~user@user/zenton> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2272022-10-27T18:28:34 <sipa> lightlike: I'm not sure you should be using rumoured IP addresses as targets manual connection in the first place... it works of course, but manual connections are more intended for nodes for which you have out-of-band reasons to know.
2282022-10-27T18:32:20 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 closed pull request #26349: rpc: make `address` field optional `list{transactions, sinceblock}` response (master...issue_26338) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26349
2292022-10-27T18:32:52 <_aj_> sipa: the only thing is they don't get discouraged/disconnected for misbehaviour (weak form of noban) isn't it?
2302022-10-27T18:33:38 <sipa> Well and they get separate connection slots.
2312022-10-27T18:33:51 <sipa> With separate rules for deciding how they're used.
2322022-10-27T18:34:15 <_aj_> sipa: preferential peering would probably get extra connection slots too (and obviously have separate rules) though?
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2342022-10-27T18:36:32 <_aj_> sipa: (which maybe just reduces it to "i'm not sure you should do preferential peering, whether manual or automatic", i guess)
2352022-10-27T18:37:14 <sipa> Wait maybe we're talking about different things.
2362022-10-27T18:37:26 <sipa> I was just talking about the distinction between manual and automatic connections.
2372022-10-27T18:39:02 <lightlike> btw jonatack did a twitter poll about this recently - almost 50% of the respondents that used manual connections at all used them to connect to unknown peers: https://twitter.com/jonatack/status/1524377548062351360
2382022-10-27T18:39:07 <jonatack> Yes IIRC addnode connections have 8 separate slots in addition to the 8 regular + 2 block relay + temporary ones
2392022-10-27T18:39:44 <luke-jr> lightlike: so anchors?
2402022-10-27T18:40:04 <jonatack> lightlike: yes, I've attempted to communicate to the larger community that addnode conns are intended for trusted peers as an anti-eclipse protection
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2432022-10-27T18:40:57 <_aj_> sipa: right, trying to understand what exactly the (unexpected/undesirable) consequences are though. is using an extra connection slot problematic? i could see it being bad if everyone did it, for sure...
2442022-10-27T18:41:28 *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2452022-10-27T18:42:37 <sipa> _aj_: My point is more that it's not all that useful; if all you're doing is picking rumoured peers to connect to, why not let the automatic connection mechanism do its job?
2462022-10-27T18:42:41 *** yanmaani2 <yanmaani2!~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2472022-10-27T18:43:00 <_aj_> sipa: you're filtering the rumoured peers by an uncommon service bit
2482022-10-27T18:43:16 <sipa> Doing the job the software should be doing for you :p
2492022-10-27T18:43:28 <sipa> But ok, fair, that's a benefit.
2502022-10-27T18:43:34 <_aj_> sipa: sure, but luke just said he'd want more review of a patch to fix that than he expects to get :)
2512022-10-27T18:43:42 <sipa> Fair enough.
2522022-10-27T18:43:43 <jonatack> lightlike: that twitter poll only had 160 respondants; it may be interesting to do one from an account with more reach like the bitcoin core org one
2532022-10-27T18:43:44 <lightlike> sipa: you can pick networks that way. automatic peering gives you no guarantees to have outbound connections to each network you like, it just picks random addrs from addrman
2542022-10-27T18:44:18 <luke-jr> jonatack (& anyone else): happy to retweet polls like this if you want to ping me with them ;)
2552022-10-27T18:44:43 <luke-jr> at least in my experience, my polls tend to get a lot of responses
2562022-10-27T18:45:14 *** NorrinRadd <NorrinRadd!~me@188.215.95.225> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2572022-10-27T18:45:23 <jonatack> luke-jr: sgtm. laanwj was also happy to retweet. we can do some.
2582022-10-27T18:46:28 <jonatack> lightlike: yes. i have manual conns with tor, i2p and cjdns for instance.
2592022-10-27T18:47:13 <luke-jr> I have 3 addnodes, 1 probably dead (Eligius), and 2 I don't remember XD
2602022-10-27T18:48:41 *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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2622022-10-27T18:59:21 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] omahs opened pull request #26402: Fix: typos (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26402
2632022-10-27T19:02:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o core-meetingbot
2642022-10-27T19:02:12 <laanwj> #startmeeting
2652022-10-27T19:02:12 <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 27 19:02:12 2022 UTC. The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
2662022-10-27T19:02:12 <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
2672022-10-27T19:02:21 <brunoerg> hi
2682022-10-27T19:02:24 <instagibbs> oh hi
2692022-10-27T19:02:29 <luke-jr> hi
2702022-10-27T19:02:30 <vasild> hi
2712022-10-27T19:02:32 <ariard> hi
2722022-10-27T19:02:35 <josie[m]> hi
2732022-10-27T19:02:35 <hebasto> hi
2742022-10-27T19:02:37 <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard b10c BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo
2752022-10-27T19:02:39 <laanwj> moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
2762022-10-27T19:02:45 <achow101> hi
2772022-10-27T19:02:50 <lightlike> hi
2782022-10-27T19:02:53 <laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
2792022-10-27T19:02:55 <jarolrod> Hi
2802022-10-27T19:02:58 <ajonas> hi
2812022-10-27T19:03:01 <sipa> hi
2822022-10-27T19:03:06 <fjahr> hi
2832022-10-27T19:03:32 <Murch> hi
2842022-10-27T19:03:35 <pablomartin_> hello
2852022-10-27T19:03:43 <laanwj> no meeting topics have been proposed this week, but we still have some from last week from achow101: Adding (more) maintainers as GitHub org owners, Moratorium on refactors that are not part of larger projects that bring tangible features and fixes
2862022-10-27T19:03:50 <laanwj> any last minute ones?
2872022-10-27T19:03:57 <furszy> hi
2882022-10-27T19:04:40 <jonatack> hi
2892022-10-27T19:05:09 <laanwj> #topic High priority for review
2902022-10-27T19:05:09 <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
2912022-10-27T19:06:04 <b10c> hi
2922022-10-27T19:06:05 <laanwj> https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1/views/1 6 blockers, 5 chasing concept ACK
2932022-10-27T19:06:08 <kouloumos> hi
2942022-10-27T19:06:09 <gleb071> hi
2952022-10-27T19:06:13 <laanwj> anything to add/remove?
2962022-10-27T19:06:39 <instagibbs> #26398 to replace #26265 please?
2972022-10-27T19:06:40 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26398 | Relax MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to preclude 64 non-witness bytes only by instagibbs · Pull Request #26398 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2982022-10-27T19:06:41 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26265 | POLICY: Relax MIN_STANDARD_TX_NONWITNESS_SIZE to 65 non-witness bytes by instagibbs · Pull Request #26265 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2992022-10-27T19:07:38 <gleb071> i have #26359, it's small but still a blocker so may qualify i guess?
3002022-10-27T19:07:40 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26359 | p2p, refactor: #23443 (Erlay support signaling) follow-ups by naumenkogs · Pull Request #26359 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3012022-10-27T19:08:24 <laanwj> instagibbs: as blocker or chasing concept ack?
3022022-10-27T19:08:31 <gleb071> the second batch PR is in draft and need little care, hopefully will be ready for review next week, so this is a good target for now :)
3032022-10-27T19:08:39 <instagibbs> laanwj, ah, i guess remove chasing concept ack on old, add high prio to new
3042022-10-27T19:08:39 <laanwj> gleb071: sure, size isn't important for this
3052022-10-27T19:08:48 <laanwj> instagibbs:ok!
3062022-10-27T19:09:04 <instagibbs> thanks!
3072022-10-27T19:09:20 <instagibbs> gleb071, great seeing forward motion :)
3082022-10-27T19:09:50 <laanwj> gleb071: added
3092022-10-27T19:10:35 <gleb071> thank you! you can drop the "meta-issue" from the last column too; not sure it's useful anymore
3102022-10-27T19:11:02 <gleb071> the issue is hopefully useful, but i think the distribution strategy can be different now
3112022-10-27T19:11:42 <laanwj> right, it's no longer waiting for concept ack
3122022-10-27T19:12:17 <gleb071> apparently i can edit the table? okay
3132022-10-27T19:13:03 <laanwj> the permissions on the github projects changed a while ago
3142022-10-27T19:13:52 <laanwj> i mean, the project boards... they're no longer part of a repository, but global to the organization, and have their own perissions
3152022-10-27T19:14:10 <laanwj> you must be in a team allowed to edit it
3162022-10-27T19:14:35 <gleb071> got it
3172022-10-27T19:15:23 <jarolrod> sound like a good segway into achow101 topic on org owners
3182022-10-27T19:15:55 <laanwj> you're only in "frequent contributors" which should have only read access to high prio for review... that's kinda weird
3192022-10-27T19:16:31 <laanwj> segway hehe
3202022-10-27T19:16:50 <laanwj> #topic Adding (more) maintainers as GitHub org owners (achow101)
3212022-10-27T19:16:50 <core-meetingbot> topic: Adding (more) maintainers as GitHub org owners (achow101)
3222022-10-27T19:17:02 <jarolrod> for reference: https://docs.github.com/en/organizations/managing-peoples-access-to-your-organization-with-roles/roles-in-an-organization#permissions-for-organization-roles
3232022-10-27T19:17:08 <gleb071> laanwj: i tested editing very moderately to not cause some org-wide notifications so it's possible you're right. i'm not interested enough to look further into that, but i can if you wish
3242022-10-27T19:17:26 <achow101> speaking of permissions, of the current owners of the bitcoin and bitcoin-core orgs, only 1 is a current maintainer, the rest former
3252022-10-27T19:18:01 <achow101> so I think it would make sense to have some of the current maintainers be added as owners as well
3262022-10-27T19:18:13 <laanwj> gleb071: i don't particularly care either, i'm sure everyone in the org is responsible enough not to do stupid things with the project board
3272022-10-27T19:18:45 <achow101> aiui, the main thing org owners do is administrative, and clean up spammers
3282022-10-27T19:18:54 <jarolrod> if a maintainer is an owner, and drops commit access, seems sane to drop org ownership as well
3292022-10-27T19:19:06 <luke-jr> but we should have more than 1
3302022-10-27T19:19:11 *** bomb-on <bomb-on!~bomb-on@user/bomb-on> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3312022-10-27T19:19:13 <luke-jr> eg, in case someone gets hit by a bus
3322022-10-27T19:19:17 *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3332022-10-27T19:19:21 <achow101> luke-jr: yes, that's mainly why I bring this up
3342022-10-27T19:19:28 <vasild> is that list public?
3352022-10-27T19:19:31 <luke-jr> achow101: but they can potentially do a lot more than spammer-triage
3362022-10-27T19:19:52 <jarolrod> org moderators can clean up spammers as well btw
3372022-10-27T19:19:57 <achow101> vasild: maybe? for contributors already part of the org, you can see who the owners are, not sure how public though
3382022-10-27T19:20:38 <vasild> ok
3392022-10-27T19:20:42 <laanwj> no, this isn't public, and maybe it's important to be somewhat discrete about who exactly has owner permissions, for bus factors etc
3402022-10-27T19:21:09 <vasild> then this is not suitable for public irc meeting?
3412022-10-27T19:21:23 <vasild> s/not/semi/
3422022-10-27T19:21:23 <luke-jr> FWIW, lack of bitcoin org ownership prevented me from adding Kalle to the bips repo a while back, but I'm not sure I want that kind of access (in terms of becoming a possible target)
3432022-10-27T19:21:27 <laanwj> i'd agree adding one more maintainer would make sense though
3442022-10-27T19:21:37 <sipa> agree as well
3452022-10-27T19:21:47 <laanwj> not adding a maintainer but to the owners i mean
3462022-10-27T19:21:55 <luke-jr> laanwj: in terms of privacy, maybe it's best if there is no correlation with maintainers then?
3472022-10-27T19:21:56 *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@37.228.225.67> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3482022-10-27T19:22:12 <jonatack> gleb071: i don't have any additional access priveleges and it looks like i could edit the project board too
3492022-10-27T19:22:28 <achow101> I think it would make sense for maintainersto be owners as owners can (force) push to protected branches
3502022-10-27T19:22:44 <jonatack> vasild: yes, it doesn't appear in, say, https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin-core/people that frequent contributors can see higher access privileges
3512022-10-27T19:22:45 <achow101> and so any owner would be a committer, even if their key is not in trusted-keys
3522022-10-27T19:22:59 <laanwj> luke-jr: i don't understand, you mean no one of the owners was available or wanted to add Kalle for you?
3532022-10-27T19:23:11 <luke-jr> laanwj: no, I mean I had to ask an owner to do it
3542022-10-27T19:23:16 <laanwj> oh, sure
3552022-10-27T19:23:26 <luke-jr> which is fine IMO
3562022-10-27T19:24:06 <laanwj> yeah... it doesn't seem like something that often happens, anyhow
3572022-10-27T19:24:16 <achow101> I think knowledge of who the owners are is semi public already, as we all know who to ping to cleanup spam
3582022-10-27T19:24:32 <luke-jr> [19:19:52] <jarolrod> org moderators can clean up spammers as well btw
3592022-10-27T19:24:55 <luke-jr> so ownership of the org seems like a basically useless thing, but something we must maintain to avoid problems XD
3602022-10-27T19:25:04 <jonatack> achow101: yes, istm anyone following the repo closely can see who is cleaning up
3612022-10-27T19:25:27 <jarolrod> ^^ we don't have any moderators currently though
3622022-10-27T19:25:53 <glozow> achow101: to clarify youâre suggesting everyone in trusted-keys should also be org owners?
3632022-10-27T19:26:08 <luke-jr> jarolrod: I assume that's as easy to resolve as adding owners
3642022-10-27T19:26:17 <jarolrod> ^^ that would be too many owners
3652022-10-27T19:26:35 <jarolrod> i think he means of the owners, they should be a subset of current maintainers
3662022-10-27T19:26:40 <luke-jr> ^
3672022-10-27T19:26:44 <achow101> luke-jr: I think org owners are also the only ones that can add new members? and also migrate repos in/out of the org (e.g. we might want to move libmultiprocess into bitcoin-core)
3682022-10-27T19:26:56 <luke-jr> achow101: ah
3692022-10-27T19:27:07 <glozow> oh i see
3702022-10-27T19:27:09 <jonatack> i'd suggest achow101, providing you are willing
3712022-10-27T19:27:33 <jarolrod> i'd suggest a specific maintainer who has a robot :D
3722022-10-27T19:27:49 <achow101> I am willing
3732022-10-27T19:27:59 <vasild> +1
3742022-10-27T19:28:00 <luke-jr> +1 for achow101
3752022-10-27T19:28:13 <ariard> ACK achow101 for org ownership
3762022-10-27T19:28:24 <gleb071> ACK
3772022-10-27T19:28:38 <josie[m]> ACK achow101 for org ownership
3782022-10-27T19:28:39 <b10c> ach ackow101
3792022-10-27T19:28:44 <fjahr> ACK
3802022-10-27T19:28:49 <josie[m]> very game of thrones vibe: "I am willing"
3812022-10-27T19:28:51 <luke-jr> ach? O.o
3822022-10-27T19:28:55 <pablomartin_> ack
3832022-10-27T19:29:00 <jonatack> b10c: nice inversion
3842022-10-27T19:29:09 <jarolrod> ð
3852022-10-27T19:29:55 <laanwj> ok... seems we have agreement on that, at least inside the meeting
3862022-10-27T19:30:06 <glozow> ack
3872022-10-27T19:30:50 <laanwj> #topic Moratorium on refactors that are not part of larger projects that bring tangible features and fixes (achow101)
3882022-10-27T19:30:51 <Murch> +1
3892022-10-27T19:30:51 <core-meetingbot> topic: Moratorium on refactors that are not part of larger projects that bring tangible features and fixes (achow101)
3902022-10-27T19:31:06 <sipa> Like with the question of adding maintainers, I think this is primarily a decision to be made by current maintainers/owners, as they have the best view on where help and of what kind is needed. Personally, ACK achow101.
3912022-10-27T19:32:26 <laanwj> yeah... but it's good to have broad agreement i guess
3922022-10-27T19:32:59 <achow101> We briefly discussed at coredev to reduce the number of refactors opened as they can have quite an effect on rebasing and review
3932022-10-27T19:33:36 <achow101> so perhaps we should stop opening refactoring prs that are not well motivated in the context of doing something larger that requires refactoring
3942022-10-27T19:34:11 <vasild> Such a moratorium seems like a blanket NACK on a vaguely defined set of changes. Who is deciding whether something is tangible?
3952022-10-27T19:34:23 <achow101> (this is both an effort to make it easier/faster to get things merged, and reduce the number of prs open)
3962022-10-27T19:34:36 <sipa> I agree it's pretty vague, and hard to decide anything about in general.
3972022-10-27T19:34:48 <sipa> But maybe you do have something more specific in mind (a few examples?)
3982022-10-27T19:34:54 <laanwj> it seems somewhat vague... maybe encourage people to nack specific refactors they disagree with?
3992022-10-27T19:35:09 <luke-jr> seems more like a vague suggestion
4002022-10-27T19:35:10 <instagibbs> or encourage people to state up front goals in refactoring PRs
4012022-10-27T19:35:20 <luke-jr> NACK is too strong - more like just silence on the PRs :P
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4032022-10-27T19:35:52 <achow101> I suppose this is more of a "state your motivations" kind of suggestion, and perhaps think before refactoring
4042022-10-27T19:36:02 <laanwj> no i mean really nack, as in "yes it's a minor improvement but it's not worth it to change this many files" and things like that
4052022-10-27T19:36:03 <josie[m]> instagibbs: +1 , i think making a compelling argument for why you are doing something, and how it impacts further work is always a good idea
4062022-10-27T19:36:04 <_aj_> "-0 -- what is this building towards?" or something
4072022-10-27T19:36:29 <vasild> I think the current scheme works well: 1. if somebody bothered to write the code and 2. enough people think it is important enough and bother to review it and 3. some maintainer decides to merge it => then it is ok to have it in master
4082022-10-27T19:36:35 <sipa> I think it's generally helpful if there were more concept acks/nacks, even ones motivated as "unclear motivation".
4092022-10-27T19:37:01 <brunoerg> vasild: +1
4102022-10-27T19:37:06 <sipa> (certainly something I'm guilty off to, I prefer to stay silent on things I don't strongly dislike...)
4112022-10-27T19:37:07 <gleb071> The only two clear things we can do here is to say is to hear. I do share the opinion sometimes the refactorings are not justified given our review capacity. I will do my part in not producing such refactors.
4122022-10-27T19:37:20 <achow101> one example of such a refactor was a getInt thing in unvalue(?) from a few months ago that caused rebasing for no clear reason
4132022-10-27T19:37:40 <jonatack> it's hard to see this being more than a general encouragement, given the ad hoc nature of how we (prefer to work), but in general if the why doesn't make sense then the what probably doesn't matter, so that is always a good reason to well motivate PR descriptions
4142022-10-27T19:37:45 <gleb071> "is to say and to hear" i meant...
4152022-10-27T19:37:46 <luke-jr> achow101: I did NACK that, and got ignored
4162022-10-27T19:37:51 <lightlike> what is the intention behind "moratorium"? Disallow them periodically in a certain time span for each release cycle, or disallow them indefinitely "for now"?
4172022-10-27T19:38:12 <josie[m]> luke-jr: i kinda wished more people would NACK rather than be silent, so long as they take the time to explain why. it can be kinda frustrating with just silence because you dont know if people disagree or are just too busy
4182022-10-27T19:39:01 <luke-jr> josie[m]: I'd put refactoring moratorium as "just too busy" more than "disagree" IMO
4192022-10-27T19:39:36 <achow101> lightlike: indefinitely "for now"
4202022-10-27T19:39:57 <gleb071> We can think of inventing a new means of communication. Say, if you lack reviewes, you explicitly tag relevant devs. Then they feel better giving low-prio-nack.
4212022-10-27T19:41:35 <achow101> mainly this topic was to seed the ideas of either stop opening refactors, or be more agressive aboue nacking things
4222022-10-27T19:41:43 <vasild> The section "### Refactoring" in CONTRIBUTING.md is relevant to this and IMO is very well written
4232022-10-27T19:42:41 <ajonas> My concern is that a lot of the refactors that you may have in mind are authored by people not at this meeting. I think the best way to enforce would probably be to leave comments pushing for better motivation or NACKing (which requires work) and wait for the next kill, shill, merge session. Over time, that gets absorbed though it will also turn many newcomers away.
4242022-10-27T19:43:33 <jonatack> lightlike: there have been proposals in the past to concentrate refactorings at certain parts of the release cycles, but that didn't go further for the same reason as here (probably): an ad hoc approach seems more conducive to this open source project than top-down project management
4252022-10-27T19:43:39 <laanwj> newcomers really shouldn't open refactors :)
4262022-10-27T19:43:50 <_aj_> ajonas: (kill/shill/fulfill?)
4272022-10-27T19:43:59 <laanwj> that takes understanding of the code and purpose... we have that documented in CONTRIBUTING.md even
4282022-10-27T19:44:07 <josie[m]> aj: nice
4292022-10-27T19:45:10 *** amovfx <amovfx!~amovfx@node-1w7jr9yi65te69rn8k46zdsox.ipv6.telus.net> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4302022-10-27T19:45:19 <ajonas> laanwj: no argument from me.
4312022-10-27T19:46:27 <josie[m]> ajonas: i think this is a good point, and in any case, being more communicative on PRs can't hurt. im not sure about turning newcomers away tho. at least from my experience, the silence can be more discouraging then someone giving a (constructive) NACK
4322022-10-27T19:47:02 <laanwj> we used to have a lot of out of the blue refactores, which prompted that to be written, it's not a new issue really but also a complicated one
4332022-10-27T19:47:17 <_aj_> maybe point newcomers more at writing additional test coverage for existing code?
4342022-10-27T19:47:34 <luke-jr> I noticed earlier a dumb refactor simply closed with no comment. I imagine that's pretty discouraging <.<
4352022-10-27T19:48:01 <laanwj> josie[m]: i definietly agree to that (from my own experience of outside contributor to projects)
4362022-10-27T19:48:09 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26374
4372022-10-27T19:48:25 <laanwj> "no i don't want this" is better than just silence for months or it lingering for years even
4382022-10-27T19:48:32 <jonatack> maybe a canned response can be given to newcomer refactors. that said, from what i've seen when a newcomer proposes an intelligent|useful cleanup or refactoring, it not only tends to be well-
4392022-10-27T19:48:58 <jonatack> received but also perhaps gets attention and merge more quickly
4402022-10-27T19:49:30 <jonatack> which could encourage more refactoring perhaps
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4422022-10-27T19:49:42 <fjahr> adding tests is good but also fixing actual bugs, there are enough open issues. But for a newcomers that is probably a lot of work and many seem to look for instant gratification.
4432022-10-27T19:49:46 <laanwj> as a contributor you're generally aware not everything will be merged and there can be disagreements
4442022-10-27T19:50:53 <jonatack> as refactoring outwardly may seem easier to review as well and divert review attention (as mentioned a bit earlier above in the meeting)
4452022-10-27T19:51:05 <josie[m]> laanwj: +1
4462022-10-27T19:51:34 <laanwj> fjahr: hah yes... a long time ago there used to be this awful system that paid out per commit... this encouraged a lot of people to try to get *something* into bitcoin core, the most trivial and cosmetic changes
4472022-10-27T19:52:06 <sipa> that was terrible, i remember
4482022-10-27T19:52:14 <josie[m]> jonatack: i think the fact that refactors appear to be easy can also make them very dangerous, as in they might not get as thorough a review there is a non-zero chance they introduce subtle bugs
4492022-10-27T19:52:20 <achow101> jonatack: even "useful cleanups" are detrimental as they can cause conflicts with other things and delay other PRs from being merged
4502022-10-27T19:52:23 <luke-jr> I think we did lose a developer over that being shutdown tho
4512022-10-27T19:52:27 <_aj_> luke-jr: seems like a better pr than solidity got https://github.com/ethereum/solidity/pull/13646 at least
4522022-10-27T19:52:36 <gleb071> hacktoberfest
4532022-10-27T19:52:44 <jonatack> josie[m]: achow101: agree
4542022-10-27T19:52:47 <kanzure> does gh-meta capture comment edits?
4552022-10-27T19:52:51 <luke-jr> _aj_: hahahah lol
4562022-10-27T19:53:06 <ajonas> fjahr: strongly agree here but really hard to find the right entry point. Good first issues has produced varied results.
4572022-10-27T19:53:07 <sipa> kanzure: I think so.
4582022-10-27T19:53:15 <laanwj> kanzure: it should
4592022-10-27T19:53:29 <sipa> luke-jr: I do believe we lost one somewhat-useful contributor over this.
4602022-10-27T19:53:44 <sipa> Who got really demotived when told to reduce the number of commits in PRs.
4612022-10-27T19:53:49 <sipa> *demotivated
4622022-10-27T19:53:50 <jonatack> josie[m]: indeed, refactors have been a real source of non-trivial bugs
4632022-10-27T19:54:08 <vasild> "that was terrible, i remember" -- it can be worse, it can pay per number of added lines.
4642022-10-27T19:54:32 <laanwj> vasild: lol... someone might add a flight simulator!
4652022-10-27T19:54:36 <sipa> jonatack: Do you have an example? (not disagreeing, just kind of wondering what you're thinking of)
4662022-10-27T19:54:41 <vasild> yes :-D
4672022-10-27T19:54:52 <sipa> I think we need built-in tetris in the GUI.
4682022-10-27T19:54:57 <sipa> As RNG source, or something.
4692022-10-27T19:55:04 <laanwj> hehe
4702022-10-27T19:55:21 <laanwj> mempool tetris
4712022-10-27T19:55:23 <vasild> hmm, actually it may make sense to pay per _removed_ lines (off topic, sorry)
4722022-10-27T19:55:26 <josie[m]> id start contributing to the bitcoin GUI if we had built in tetris :D
4732022-10-27T19:55:30 <kanzure> coin selection and tetris are both examples of the same class of problem
4742022-10-27T19:55:34 <ajonas> _aj_: (kill/shill/thrill?)
4752022-10-27T19:55:40 <jarolrod> sipa: that can be accommodated
4762022-10-27T19:55:40 <luke-jr> vasild: [19:48:08] <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26374
4772022-10-27T19:55:50 <_aj_> ajonas: thrill is when it gets mentioned in an optech newsletter
4782022-10-27T19:56:05 <jonatack> sipa: refactorings touching the init order bring to mind a couple
4792022-10-27T19:56:45 <laanwj> yes init order (especially in the gui, as there are lots of hard to test edge cases) is really dangerous to change, agree jonatack
4802022-10-27T19:56:48 <kanzure> is the concern about the set of open PRs being too plentiful, or that an old refactor becomes virtually useless over time due to staleness?
4812022-10-27T19:56:57 <_aj_> oh, i have a question about init (shutdown) order. can wait to post meeting in a few mins
4822022-10-27T19:57:47 <luke-jr> inb4 _aj_ refactors init/shutdown order for no reason (jk)
4832022-10-27T19:57:55 <jarolrod> Play Tetris while core syncs
4842022-10-27T19:57:59 <laanwj> kanzure: i was thinking of transaction selection for blocks, but coin selection works too
4852022-10-27T19:58:08 <_aj_> nah, it's just what seems like a bug
4862022-10-27T19:59:49 <jonatack> laanwj: i think i recall one causing UB and a re-release (nov/dec 2020?) and one causing an addrman corruption issue (july/aug 2021)
4872022-10-27T20:00:21 <laanwj> jonatack: yes, you'er right
4882022-10-27T20:00:30 <laanwj> ok, time to close the meeting
4892022-10-27T20:00:33 <laanwj> #endmeeting
4902022-10-27T20:00:33 <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
4912022-10-27T20:00:33 <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 27 20:00:33 2022 UTC.
4922022-10-27T20:00:33 <core-meetingbot> Minutes: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-10-27-19.02.moin.txt
4932022-10-27T20:00:59 <_aj_> okay, so i feel like i've seen a hang on shutdown a bunch of times -- recently i caught something like it in gdb
4942022-10-27T20:01:05 <kanzure> fyi gnusha was down for a few days, log contributions welcome
4952022-10-27T20:01:16 <kanzure> (i need to install a watcher/notifier)
4962022-10-27T20:01:50 <luke-jr> _aj_: yes, I think I diagnosed one previously - not sure it got fixed
4972022-10-27T20:02:25 <luke-jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23234
4982022-10-27T20:02:25 <_aj_> that one seemed to be traced the parallel script checking threads hanging on shutdown, i think because they were waiting for SyncWithValidationInterfaceQueue() to finish, but it was hanging on the schedule to finish a promise, and the scheduler thread was already stopped
4992022-10-27T20:03:07 <jonatack> _aj_: have been seeing hangs on shutdown too
5002022-10-27T20:04:16 <_aj_> luke-jr: so i fixed that locally by just having SyncWithValidationInterfaceQueue exit early if shutdown's requested; but had to make the promise be a shared_ptr, so that when the scheduler got cleared, it hadn't already been freed
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5022022-10-27T20:04:45 <luke-jr> _aj_: you found a different one then?
5032022-10-27T20:05:10 <_aj_> luke-jr: LimitValidationInterfacequeue calls SyncWithValidationInterfaceQueue, so seems similar?
5042022-10-27T20:06:16 <vasild> _aj_: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26188 is relevant
5052022-10-27T20:06:25 <vasild> to SyncWithValidationInterfaceQueue()
5062022-10-27T20:06:53 <vasild> I found the code surrounding is gives me a headache
5072022-10-27T20:07:11 <vasild> s/is/it/
5082022-10-27T20:08:19 * vasild zZzZ
5092022-10-27T20:08:21 <jeremyrubin> jonatack: i think i proposed having refactor windows a while back, but it was sort of a stopgap of retaining contributors whose utility function is driven by refactors
5102022-10-27T20:09:15 <jeremyrubin> Jan 20th 2022 for the logs
5112022-10-27T20:09:40 <jeremyrubin> https://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/2022-01-20.log
5122022-10-27T20:09:57 <jonatack> jeremyrubin: yes, i had that proposal in mind
5132022-10-27T20:10:09 <luke-jr> I guess that's a risk of refactor moratorium: we might lose people who only do refactoring :x
5142022-10-27T20:10:21 <luke-jr> ideally they'd review other stuff in the meantime, but they might not want to
5152022-10-27T20:11:23 <jeremyrubin> so one of the worst things for refactors is fixing circular deps because it definitely makes rebasing crappy (unless someone has some expert mode git-fu)
5162022-10-27T20:11:46 <jeremyrubin> but it is something that is a part of "a project" to fix bad design/improve compile times or something
5172022-10-27T20:12:42 <_aj_> improving compile times is a larger project, and something you can benchmark to demonstrate the benefit...
5182022-10-27T20:12:49 <luke-jr> I'm not sure a project which has refactoring as its sole purpose, qualifies :P
5192022-10-27T20:14:19 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #26403: Ephemeral anchors (master...ephemeral-anchors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26403
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5212022-10-27T20:18:23 <jeremyrubin> _aj_: sort of -- for circular dependencies you could have module A depending on module B which depends on A and module C which depends on A which depends on B. Cleaning up A's dependency on B would not make any improvement until the work on removing B and A from C (if i've made the example well), but would be progress towards that goal if C is
5222022-10-27T20:18:23 <jeremyrubin> trickier to refactor than A/B.
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5242022-10-27T20:19:28 <jeremyrubin> i also don't know if there is any compile time overhead for circular dependencies, not familiar enough with exactly how it works to know if there is a penalty (seems if LTO is enabled, yes, if not, headers solve for that)
5252022-10-27T20:20:19 <sipa> You do need to distinguish the "module/semantic" circular dependencies and "code inclusion" circular dependencies.
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5282022-10-27T20:33:07 <BlueMatt[m]> is there any reason to think bitcoin core rpc would not return stale forked-off blocks if requested by hash?
5292022-10-27T20:34:48 <_aj_> BlueMatt[m]: pruning?
5302022-10-27T20:36:52 <BlueMatt[m]> yea, i asked about pruning, i dont think that was the issue here. I was just double-checking that no one introduced any kind of "old stale" check before returning block data in rpc
5312022-10-27T20:37:06 <BlueMatt[m]> bug may well be elsewhere, just checking off boxes
5322022-10-27T20:37:12 <sipa> Is this in `getblock` ?
5332022-10-27T20:37:33 <sipa> I don't see any logic in the getblock RPC that would reject requests for non-mainchain blocks.
5342022-10-27T20:37:43 <sipa> It only affects the "confirmation" field.
5352022-10-27T20:37:57 <_aj_> BlueMatt[m]: getting old blocks that are listed in chaintips via getblock is working fine for me fwiw
5362022-10-27T20:38:16 <laanwj> i don't think there's such a check for RPC, it would be really strange, unless it's somehow inherited from P2P where there's checks like that against fingerprinting
5372022-10-27T20:38:23 <instagibbs> wasnt there a PR to make it stop sending these after a month
5382022-10-27T20:38:26 <instagibbs> anti-fingerprinting
5392022-10-27T20:38:33 <instagibbs> or is this just p2p
5402022-10-27T20:38:41 <instagibbs> sorry, ignore
5412022-10-27T20:38:43 <sipa> Just P2P, I believe.
5422022-10-27T20:38:43 <laanwj> it would be kind of bad if that was for RPC
5432022-10-27T20:38:47 <instagibbs> agreed!
5442022-10-27T20:40:05 <BlueMatt[m]> Thanks yâall. Yea, would be bad.
5452022-10-27T20:40:16 <BlueMatt[m]> Oh, thereâs nothing like that in REST either, right v
5462022-10-27T20:40:19 <BlueMatt[m]> ?
5472022-10-27T20:40:58 <laanwj> rest and rpc tend to follow exactly the same path
5482022-10-27T20:41:34 <sipa> Just checked rest, can't see logic there either.
5492022-10-27T20:41:49 <sipa> Except for JSON block output, where again it's used for confirmations.
5502022-10-27T20:43:22 <BlueMatt[m]> hmm, okay, thanks....strange bug, then.
5512022-10-27T20:53:29 <jonatack> instagibbs: i suppose "ephemeral anchors" is vocabulary originating from anchor outputs in lightning, but the term is similar to our existing p2p anchors (last known outbound block-relay-only peers that we try to re-connect to on startup)
5522022-10-27T20:55:08 <jonatack> naming collisions ftw i guess
5532022-10-27T20:58:15 <instagibbs> yeah we can bikeshed for the next year or two, all for it
5542022-10-27T20:58:41 <instagibbs> first, make sure it's not broken
5552022-10-27T20:59:07 <instagibbs> (it's broken)
5562022-10-27T21:08:32 <_aj_> "ephemeral cpfp hook" ? surely it won't take a year or two...
5572022-10-27T21:09:24 <jonatack> _aj_ is good with words; nominated for terms naming
5582022-10-27T21:09:38 <instagibbs> three words now, great.
5592022-10-27T21:10:02 <jonatack> ecpfphook
5602022-10-27T21:10:12 <instagibbs> phook it is
5612022-10-27T21:10:19 <jonatack> yess
5622022-10-27T21:10:20 <_aj_> get phooked?
5632022-10-27T21:10:54 <jonatack> catchy > literal
5642022-10-27T21:11:06 <jonatack> like band names
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5702022-10-27T21:37:37 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #26076: Switch hardened derivation marker to h in descriptors (master...2022/09/descriptors_h) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26076
5712022-10-27T21:37:37 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa reopened pull request #26076: Switch hardened derivation marker to h in descriptors (master...2022/09/descriptors_h) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26076
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5762022-10-27T21:49:16 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/551c8e9526d2...f37bd15d472f
5772022-10-27T21:49:16 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94c0766 furszy: wallet: skip available coins fetch if "other inputs" are disallowed
5782022-10-27T21:49:17 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 37e7887 furszy: wallet: skip manually selected coins from 'AvailableCoins' result
5792022-10-27T21:49:17 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 295852f furszy: wallet: encapsulate pre-selected-inputs lookup into its own function
5802022-10-27T21:49:32 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #25685: wallet: Faster transaction creation by removing pre-set-inputs fetching responsibility from Coin Selection (master...2022_wallet_faster_coin_selection) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25685
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5832022-10-27T22:08:03 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mzumsande opened pull request #26404: test: fix intermittent failure in rpc_getblockfrompeer.py (master...202210_testfix_blockfrompeer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26404
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