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72022-11-07T00:13:46 <sugarpuff> could someone explain sipa's reply here to the idea of adding txn expiry dates to txns? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26438#issuecomment-1304896255
82022-11-07T00:13:57 <sugarpuff> I don't get what he means by the reorg risk. Is he saying there's no difference? I don't think that's true, there is a difference - in the current scenario the user is completely in the dark with no guarantees whatsoever as far as when they can expect their txn to go through or be returned to them. In the proposal they do have such a guarantee. Even if their block is re-org'd out - I thought they were supposed to wait 6
92022-11-07T00:13:57 <sugarpuff> blocks anyway.
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122022-11-07T00:48:40 <sipa> @sugarpuff If you want to cancel a transaction, you can pre-sign a double-spend of it.
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142022-11-07T00:50:20 <sipa> But adding expiration times to transactions means even absent double-spends, transactions can randomly become invalid if they're mined close to their expiration.
152022-11-07T00:50:51 <sipa> Because a reorg could push them to another chain's block which has a later timestamp, past the expiration.
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262022-11-07T02:28:59 * luke-jr wonders if reorg'd transactions will replace non-reorg'd ones right now
272022-11-07T02:29:14 <luke-jr> maybe it would make sense to block RBF on transactions that have ever been in a block
282022-11-07T02:34:48 <_aj_> luke-jr: those seem like opposite questions? the latter is "will a new tx replace a tx that was in a reorg'ed block", the former is "will a tx that was in a block that's being reorg'd replace a tx in the mempool" - but if a tx conflicts with a tx in the blockchain it shouldn't be in the mempool in the first place?
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332022-11-07T02:55:27 <luke-jr> _aj_: my thought is, when we reorg, any transactions in those blocks should get "pinned" into the mempool, so they can not be replaced period
342022-11-07T02:55:55 <luke-jr> but yes, I agree, the first one seems clearly impossible to have otherwise
352022-11-07T02:56:13 <_aj_> luke-jr: seems good for the network, but not something miners would particularly want
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372022-11-07T02:59:01 <_aj_> i mean: good for the network in that, while it doesn't stop an attacker from doublespending as part of a reorg, it prevents other attackers from opportunistically taking advantage of a reorg that someone else is doing
382022-11-07T02:59:56 <luke-jr> _aj_: what is good for the network, is often good for miners too
392022-11-07T03:00:14 <luke-jr> it's unfortunate so many seem to have short-sighted views on this
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462022-11-07T03:22:11 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ariard closed pull request #26305: Enable `mempoolfullrbf=1` by default (master...2022-10-activate-fullrbf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26305
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552022-11-07T04:18:17 <_aj_> luke-jr: i suppose there could be a spam vector with that if you had a tx included in a low-work block during ibd which is then immediately reorged out, but gives that tx protection. i'm not sure if we ignore all blocks that aren't in a minwork headers chain; if we do that'd prevent that. could also only protect it from eviction for 2000 blocks or set it to expire at 14 days after the block's MTP
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572022-11-07T04:59:55 <PaperSword> Is there a better way to get the length of a univalue object than .get_str.length()?
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692022-11-07T05:29:28 <_aj_> PaperSword: if it's an object/vector, you want .size()? if it's a string (or number?) that seems fine?
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712022-11-07T05:47:01 <PaperSword> I am working on merging ParseHashOrHeight into getblock() as to allow the getblock call to accept a height or a hash. Instead of just a hash.
722022-11-07T05:49:12 <PaperSword> as such I need to take the univalue for request.param[0] and determine the length. If the length == 64 then the param is a block hash. If the param is less than 64 it can be parsed as an int that represents an attempt to parse at a block height.
732022-11-07T05:49:13 <_aj_> PaperSword: https://github.com/ajtowns/bitcoin/tree/202206-getblock-at-height
742022-11-07T05:50:33 <_aj_> PaperSword: past feedback has been that that's better done on the client side, so that branch implements in bitcoin-cli and the gui, rather than serverside. #16439
752022-11-07T05:50:35 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16439 | cli/gui: support "@height" in place of blockhash for getblock on client side by ajtowns · Pull Request #16439 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
762022-11-07T05:56:23 <PaperSword> For all intents an purposes this is just to speed up one of my scripts that is getting block info for blocks 0 to tip, as such right now I am making two calls, one to get hash from height. Then passing that into getblock.
772022-11-07T05:57:29 <PaperSword> Not to sound completely ignorant why even use the @block? Can the type of param[0] be changed to height_or_hash?
782022-11-07T05:59:23 <_aj_> height_or_hash is pretty awkward with bitcoin-cli, you have to say '"00000abcdef12345.."' so that an int looks different to a string
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832022-11-07T06:07:34 <PaperSword> A hash will always be a str of length 64 correct?, is there any reason to not attempt to convert a str of length < 64 to an int if the value is less than the max of getInt?
842022-11-07T06:09:37 <_aj_> if you're only accepting strings, might as well have the prefix, so it's unambiguous which you're talking about? *shrug*
852022-11-07T06:10:02 <_aj_> getblockstats is the only thing that accepts a hash or a height currently, and it does it by checking the argument type
862022-11-07T06:11:19 <PaperSword> BTW thanks for your time.
872022-11-07T06:11:56 <PaperSword> Exploring the RPC has helped me learn much more about the inner workings of the RPC server, it's quite cool.
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932022-11-07T06:21:46 <PaperSword> In regard to ambiguity, The thought I had is due to the fact that the block height will not encroach onto the same hex representation space of being 64 characters for 1.9*10^58 years. It would be hard to fathom the block height ever reaching that.
942022-11-07T06:22:09 <_aj_> you could also just say "is the first character 0? hash."
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982022-11-07T06:25:51 <PaperSword> Not saying it would be useful for my implementation to optimize my dev node. If it possible to ever have a difficulty value that would accept a hash with a 0x2... or something similar. Not asking if it would ever happen, but is it possible?
992022-11-07T06:26:08 <PaperSword> Is it*
1002022-11-07T06:27:34 <PaperSword> That would mean 1 in 2 hashes would produce a block.
1012022-11-07T06:27:43 <PaperSword> wait wrong sorry.
1022022-11-07T06:27:46 <_aj_> no, powLimit in chainparams.cpp forces 8 leading 0's (5 for signet, 1-leading-0-bit for regtest)
1032022-11-07T06:28:30 <PaperSword> That is quite clever.
1042022-11-07T06:28:47 <PaperSword> Thanks again for these bits of knowledge.
1052022-11-07T06:28:53 <_aj_> so yeah, regtest has blocks that don't start with 0, so that wouldn't work
1062022-11-07T06:35:22 <PaperSword> Regtest blocks could start with 0x0... - 0x7...
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1202022-11-07T08:47:09 <gleb07122> I'm noticing another race condition with p2p tests... do you know what might be the reason? @lightlike MacroFake https://cirrus-ci.com/task/6687915036639232?logs=functional_tests#L1436
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1232022-11-07T08:49:07 <gleb07122> I can probably just replace wait_until bytesrecv_per_msg -> wait_until log message and see if that passes, but i kinda wanna understand what's wrong too.
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1422022-11-07T10:14:10 <vasild> gleb07122: self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo()[-1] -> list index out of range
1432022-11-07T10:14:35 <vasild> I am poor pythoner but I guess that means that either nodes[] or getpeerinfo()[] arrays are empty
1442022-11-07T10:15:17 <vasild> I cant see how nodes[] could be empty, so it must be the getpeerinfo()[] array and if that is empty it means no peers are connected at the timem it executes
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1462022-11-07T10:15:53 <vasild> what about waiting for the array to become non-empty?
1472022-11-07T10:17:46 <vasild> that is to change `wait_until(lambda : "sendtxrcncl" in self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo()[-1]...` to something like `wait_until(lambda : peerinfo = self.nodes[0].getpeerinfo(); return len(peerinfo) > 0 && "sendtxrcncl" in peerinfo[-1]...`
1482022-11-07T10:18:38 <vasild> this would fix it if the problem is that this wait runs too early before anybody has connected, but if the problem is elsewhere it will probably timeout after 60 secs
1492022-11-07T10:29:38 <gleb07122> I think your explanation helps, thank you!
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1922022-11-07T10:49:00 <vasild> yw :)
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2242022-11-07T15:19:23 <fanquake> * [new tag] v23.1rc1 -> v23.1rc1
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2262022-11-07T15:27:38 *** test_ is now known as _flood
2272022-11-07T15:30:59 <luke-jr> _aj_: sounds reasonable
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2502022-11-07T18:44:16 <sugarpuff> @sipa "If you want to cancel a transaction, you can pre-sign a double-spend of it." <- Does that work now? Is it enforced by all miners? If so this is the first time I'm hearing of it, and I bet it's the first time most people are hearing about it because I've never seen it implemented in any wallet, and I've never seen it mentioned in any article. Seems important.
2512022-11-07T18:45:00 <sugarpuff> @sipa "transactions can randomly become invalid if they're mined close to their expiration." <- So what? Isn't this true of regular transactions too? Couldn't they be re-org'd out and not appear in the re-org'd block?
2522022-11-07T18:45:22 <sipa> @sugarpuff That has always worked.
2532022-11-07T18:45:26 <sipa> Since opt-in RBF.
2542022-11-07T18:46:04 <sugarpuff> sipa: Why does no wallet support it?? Why is it never mentioned in any article on stuck transactions??
2552022-11-07T18:46:42 <sipa> Usually the way to unstuck a transaction is to make it go through, not cancel it.
2562022-11-07T18:46:49 <sipa> Through either RBF or CPFP.
2572022-11-07T18:47:35 <sugarpuff> I understand this, I even wrote a blog post on it way back in March 2016: https://fixingtao.com/2016/03/bitcoin-keep-calm-and-rbfcpfp-on/ ;;;; but it doesn't fully solve the problem
2582022-11-07T18:48:02 <sugarpuff> the subsequent RBF txn might not go through either, and someone might decide they don't want to pay higher fees, or CPFP might not be supported
2592022-11-07T18:48:38 <sugarpuff> Saying "RBF/CPFP is the only way to fix this" also creates an arms race in fees
2602022-11-07T18:48:58 <sugarpuff> unnecessarily inflating them when someone might decide they'd prefer to cancel and try again at a later date
2612022-11-07T18:49:37 <sipa> Right now there is no reason to assume a reorged transaction wouldn't end up accepted in the other chain too (assuming it wasn't double spent), because valid transactions always remain valid.
2622022-11-07T18:50:20 <sipa> The complexity of reasoning about mempool transactions and recently confirmed ones is far worse for everybody is transactions can revert to being invalid.
2632022-11-07T18:51:08 <sugarpuff> only if they're assuming 1-conf is something to be relied upon
2642022-11-07T18:51:29 <sugarpuff> and again, normal transactions can be not included in a re-org'd block, right?
2652022-11-07T18:51:32 <sipa> reorgs of more than 1 deep are also a problem
2662022-11-07T18:51:54 <sugarpuff> this is a problem for regular txns too, right? they can not appear in a re-org'd block in certain situations, true?
2672022-11-07T18:52:15 <sipa> and that's not the only issue .. e.g. do you relay a transaction close to its expiration, because our DoS protection relies on the assumption that something relayed is eligible for confirmation, and thus pays a nontrivial fee
2682022-11-07T18:52:25 *** noxim <noxim!~AdminUser@43.224.169.86> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2692022-11-07T18:53:33 <sugarpuff> sure, relay something unless it's expired. that might even reduce pressure on DoS, right? since fewer transactions would be relayed, theoretically
2702022-11-07T18:53:35 <sipa> this gets even worse when taking cpfp and other dependencies into account... as now you need transitive reasoning as children may become invalid as their unconfirmed parent expires
2712022-11-07T18:54:25 <sipa> The same issues exist around mempool replacement... a transaction close to expiration is unlikely to be mined, and should therefore probably not be considered for replacing another transaction
2722022-11-07T18:54:32 <sipa> but where do you out the threshold
2732022-11-07T18:55:19 <sugarpuff> what about this question: "they can not appear in a re-org'd block in certain situations, true?" (referring to normal txns)
2742022-11-07T18:55:43 <sugarpuff> ("normal" i.e. without expiry)
2752022-11-07T18:55:54 <sipa> What are "they" ?
2762022-11-07T18:56:06 <sugarpuff> today's txns without expiry
2772022-11-07T18:56:22 <sugarpuff> today's txns without expiry built into them
2782022-11-07T18:57:00 <sipa> Well, yes, they could be double-spent, or the fee market after the reorg could be so radically different that miners don't pick it up.
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2802022-11-07T18:57:37 <sugarpuff> ok, so the concern you brought up earlier, of txns not being included in re-org'd blocks due to close expiry, also applies to today's non-expiring txns...
2812022-11-07T18:59:16 <sipa> I don't think that's comparable.
2822022-11-07T18:59:27 <sugarpuff> why not?
2832022-11-07T18:59:40 <sipa> Sure, there is no guarantee that a tx after a reorg still makes it in.
2842022-11-07T18:59:51 <sipa> But there is a big difference between no guarantee, and a prohibition.
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2862022-11-07T19:00:30 <sugarpuff> but that is the entire point of adding an expiry - is to give users a guarantee
2872022-11-07T19:00:42 <sugarpuff> they will be relieved to know that their bitcoins will be back by a certain time, or spent
2882022-11-07T19:00:47 <sugarpuff> right now they will be panicking
2892022-11-07T19:00:53 <sipa> It cuts both ways. I don't think this helps.
2902022-11-07T19:01:24 <sugarpuff> i honestly don't see the downside
2912022-11-07T19:01:46 <sipa> With expiry it's also possible that in a reorg the timestamps are lower, and thus an expired transaction becomes valid again.
2922022-11-07T19:02:29 <sugarpuff> but what is the margin on this? like less than 10 min right?
2932022-11-07T19:02:40 <sipa> To me, monotonicity of tx validity is such a fundamental principle underlying bitcoin, that I'd need a very good reason to even consider acking it.
2942022-11-07T19:02:49 <sugarpuff> compare to the current situation: a margin or *days* not knowing whether or not your txn will be confirmed
2952022-11-07T19:03:02 <sipa> And I don't think it fixes anything
2962022-11-07T19:03:30 <sugarpuff> how does being given a guarantee by which time your txn will be spent or returned not fix anything? How is not knowing what happens to your coins for *weeks* a good thing?
2972022-11-07T19:04:24 <sipa> You can fee bump it.
2982022-11-07T19:04:25 <sipa> Many wallets today support that.
2992022-11-07T19:04:43 <sugarpuff> but what if the fees are like $100???
3002022-11-07T19:04:49 <sugarpuff> or more??
3012022-11-07T19:05:14 <sugarpuff> what if you bought a toy for $20, and the fees are $200???
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3032022-11-07T19:06:26 <sipa> If the tx drops out of your mempool, you can abandon it and spend the funds again later.
3042022-11-07T19:06:54 <sipa> If the current fee market is so much higher than what you paid, there's no reason to assume your transaction will be included.
3052022-11-07T19:08:08 <sugarpuff> so you decide to "spend the funds again later", and wait for them to return, and make decisions on the assumption that you'll be able to spend them later (whatever those decisions might be, who knows), and then after 10 days your txn confirms and your funds are gone. Now what?
3062022-11-07T19:08:15 <sugarpuff> How is that a good user experience?
3072022-11-07T19:08:29 <sugarpuff> If the txn had an expiry you could reason about this situation. But it doesn't
3082022-11-07T19:09:56 <sugarpuff> This has to do with hard forks doesn't it?
3092022-11-07T19:10:00 <sugarpuff> is adding an expiry a hard fork?
3102022-11-07T19:10:32 <sipa> You can sign an RBF with higher feerate to send back to yourself too. It doesn't even need to match the current market feerate at the time of spending, just beat the transaction being replaced.
3112022-11-07T19:10:48 <sipa> Either neither makes it in, or the replacement makes it in.
3122022-11-07T19:11:04 <sipa> No, that can easily be done with a softfork
3132022-11-07T19:12:27 <sugarpuff> but the RBF txn isn't guaranteed to go through, and the fees might be so high that you decide you don't want to pay them. so you end up deciding to just not deal with it, and not know the fate of your txn. This is frustrating to both businesses and customers and users. IMO, it should be fixed and can be easily fixed with an expiry. I'm glad to hear it's not a hard fork. even the base unit of the Internet (packets) have a
3142022-11-07T19:12:27 <sugarpuff> TTL
3152022-11-07T19:13:27 <sugarpuff> DNS records have a TTL... txns should too
3162022-11-07T19:14:14 <sipa> Sorry, I don't find this a convincing argument
3172022-11-07T19:14:36 <sugarpuff> ok, well, maybe when enough people complain you'll change your mind. i tried *shrug*
3182022-11-07T19:15:04 <sipa> You don't need to convince me, thankfully.
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3202022-11-07T19:24:03 <sugarpuff> sipa: oh, one more thing, sorry I didn't realize this. You keep saying that RBF is the solution to this, but even that isn't completely true AFAIK since RBF isn't enabled by default on txns, right? So for a large number of users they literally have zero recourse right now
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3712022-11-07T23:38:14 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #26467: bumpfee: Allow the user to choose which output is change (master...bumpfee-choose-change-txout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26467
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