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57 2015-10-06T01:58:33 <jcorgan> waiting for bitcoin-dev list to break out into the intellectual heights of "Is not!" "Is too!" argumentation. Oh wait...
58 2015-10-06T01:59:12 <alpalp> screw you guys, im going home!
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71 2015-10-06T02:27:04 <instagibbs> Time like these when batch mode isn't enough to keep sanity
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73 2015-10-06T02:29:44 <floopflorg> if I have a bitcoind instance running with -disablewallet enabled, what is the best way to see incoming transactions? Is polling the rawmempool RPC call the best way? On that note, are there any good alternative bitcoind implementations better suited for running for a service?
74 2015-10-06T02:31:05 <jimpo> I belive there is a ZMQ socket with transaction notifications https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/zmq.md
75 2015-10-06T02:34:08 <jcorgan> yes, this was recently merged into master, however
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81 2015-10-06T02:46:48 <floopflorg> jimpo: That is exactly what I was looking for. jcorgan: indeed, it looks like this was added just 20 days ago.
82 2015-10-06T02:47:45 <floopflorg> jcorgan: if it is in master, will it be included in the next release?
83 2015-10-06T02:48:14 <jcorgan> yes
84 2015-10-06T02:48:41 <floopflorg> meanin 0.12 or 0.11.1?
85 2015-10-06T02:48:45 <jcorgan> 0.12
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87 2015-10-06T02:49:06 <jcorgan> which i think is tentatively planned around end of year, but i'm not positive on that
88 2015-10-06T02:49:50 <floopflorg> ok, I imagine this project would be in dev till at least then anyway. It would be feasible to run with zmq compiled from master on testnet right?
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91 2015-10-06T02:51:23 <jcorgan> sure
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110 2015-10-06T03:12:22 <floopflorg> jcorgan: Thanks for the help, and the work, I see you started that
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112 2015-10-06T03:12:55 <jcorgan> yeah, a long time ago. jgarzik improved it substantially.
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115 2015-10-06T03:13:41 <floopflorg> well, there will be at least one person banging on that code soon
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117 2015-10-06T03:14:36 <jcorgan> it existed as a PR for a very long time, i think some others have been using it in production
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123 2015-10-06T03:19:32 <floopflorg> well good, hopefully I will not have to bug you or jgarzik about it too much then
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236 2015-10-06T05:42:32 <hardyred> Hey quick question - if I am playing around with the bitcoin RPC interface what is the best method for finding the balance of a random account's address? Should I just sum the spendable UTXO's or is there a better way?
237 2015-10-06T05:43:53 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: bitcoin addresses do not have balances
238 2015-10-06T05:44:01 <Luke-Jr> despite the misinformation various notorious websites show
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240 2015-10-06T05:45:00 <hardyred> I meant the keys associated with the address Luke-jr
241 2015-10-06T05:45:06 <hardyred> Poor phrasing sorry
242 2015-10-06T05:47:17 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: keys also do not have balances; I know what number you are asking about, but my point is that number is meaningless
243 2015-10-06T05:48:36 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Well.. Luke I am playing around with Bitcoind for the first time here so bear with me. I am trying to figure out how to reflect ACCOUNT BALANCES - in your opinion what would be the most efficient way to calculate this?
244 2015-10-06T05:49:13 <Luke-Jr> account balances can be seen with the getbalance RPC, but accounts are deprecated
245 2015-10-06T05:49:34 <hardyred> I mean for accounts that are not your own
246 2015-10-06T05:49:35 <Luke-Jr> if you need accounts, you should probably implement them yourself in some SQL database
247 2015-10-06T05:49:50 <hardyred> What is used now, wallets?
248 2015-10-06T05:49:58 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: uh, ask whoever runs the accounts?
249 2015-10-06T05:50:05 <Luke-Jr> the blockchain contains ZERO information about accounts
250 2015-10-06T05:50:20 <Luke-Jr> that is entirely local to the PC running them
251 2015-10-06T05:50:39 <hardyred> My terminology is poor Luke-Jr I really do get that and I apologize
252 2015-10-06T05:51:28 <Luke-Jr> to get information about someone else's wallet, you also need (some) private information from their wallet
253 2015-10-06T05:52:53 <hardyred> So let's take a very basic "regular" user site like (don't kill me for saying this Luke-Jr, Blockchain.info or blockexplorer.com) - do they just calculate the addresses by using a database to import the blocks
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255 2015-10-06T05:53:15 <hardyred> and then just recalculate based on transactions to and from each individual address?
256 2015-10-06T05:53:47 <Luke-Jr> they might as well make up the misinformation shown
257 2015-10-06T05:54:05 <Luke-Jr> transactions are not from an address ever
258 2015-10-06T05:54:07 <hardyred> I understand that their method is not inherently how Bitcoin works and is not very helpful if you understand the backend. I am just trying to learn what they do in order to get a better understanding
259 2015-10-06T05:54:37 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: everything they do is probably home-grown, which is why it malfunctions constantly
260 2015-10-06T05:54:47 <Luke-Jr> you can find addresses they will claim have negative balances
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262 2015-10-06T05:55:26 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Well I'd be interested to hear your opinion on how a blockchain explorer would function better
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264 2015-10-06T05:55:39 <hardyred> Would you not have it display balances at all?
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266 2015-10-06T05:57:40 <Luke-Jr> probably correct
267 2015-10-06T05:58:46 <Luke-Jr> yes, I can't think of any blockchain-visible balances to show
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269 2015-10-06T06:01:18 <jcorgan> hardyred: an accurate way to present information would be to answer, "what are all the UTXOs I can spend based on the credentials i have stored locally?", or a summary of that
270 2015-10-06T06:02:05 <hardyred> jcorgan: thank you, I am working on a web block explorer as a small project to get familiar with bitcoind/bitcoin in general
271 2015-10-06T06:02:50 <jcorgan> please, please, please, don't ever think or display things in terms of accounts or balances
272 2015-10-06T06:03:03 <hardyred> So if I wanted to make a developers's life any easier what would you display on an explorer then? Information on TXID's, new blocks, old blocks?
273 2015-10-06T06:03:15 <hardyred> Visualization tools?
274 2015-10-06T06:03:17 <jcorgan> all that exists in in bitcoin are UTXOs, some subset of which a user has the ability to spend
275 2015-10-06T06:03:40 <hardyred> jcorgan: Right, I was curious on how the popular blockchain explorers that many users utilized function
276 2015-10-06T06:04:00 <jcorgan> it sounds crazy, but every single one of them get this point wrong
277 2015-10-06T06:04:07 <hardyred> jcorgan: from what I have seen from Blockexplorer is that they just import all the blocks and calculate them from there
278 2015-10-06T06:04:07 <jcorgan> be the first to do it right
279 2015-10-06T06:04:50 <hardyred> jcorgan: I think the reason they do it is because it makes it easier for users to visualize unfortunately
280 2015-10-06T06:05:39 <hardyred> jcorgan: So if I would do it right, do you agree with Luke-Jr and basically never display any kind of balance considering it can be wildly inaccurate?
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283 2015-10-06T06:06:30 <jcorgan> the term "balance" carries with it many assumptions and expections of behavior, which draw users toward actions which can cause them to lose bitcoin
284 2015-10-06T06:07:25 <hardyred> jcorgan: So what would you display if you had to think of an ideal site for an explorer (which I am interested in working on to get a better understanding of working with Bitcoin)?
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286 2015-10-06T06:07:50 <hardyred> jcorgan: And thank you for answering my questions (I'm sure it can be very annoying)
287 2015-10-06T06:07:58 <hardyred> You too Luke-Jr
288 2015-10-06T06:08:06 <jcorgan> no, it's just a pet peeve of mine
289 2015-10-06T06:09:01 <jcorgan> all the data in the blockchain is there to display. there are blocks and transactions, and changes in the spent vs. unspent transaction set.
290 2015-10-06T06:09:35 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: for a txid, you'd show the input UTXO ids, input scriptSig, and for outputs both addresses as well as UTXO indexes
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292 2015-10-06T06:10:30 <Luke-Jr> for an address, you would show the associated txid (if any); if it received more than once, maybe some general idea of which coins are properly confirmed, etc
293 2015-10-06T06:10:42 <Luke-Jr> (note addresses should not receive more than once)
294 2015-10-06T06:11:20 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: They shouldn't but they often do
295 2015-10-06T06:11:35 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: yes, but you wouldn't want to design the page expecting that
296 2015-10-06T06:11:47 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Blockchain.info, still an incredibly popular web wallet does not even try and change regularly
297 2015-10-06T06:11:50 <Luke-Jr> ie, it should display the info, but look best with the expected use
298 2015-10-06T06:12:13 <Luke-Jr> hardyred: broken webwallets are okay looking weird in a proper block explorer :p
299 2015-10-06T06:12:15 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Ok great thank you, you gave a perfect description of useful transaction information
300 2015-10-06T06:12:51 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Is all of that information obtainable through the Bitcoin CMD?
301 2015-10-06T06:13:05 <Luke-Jr> No.
302 2015-10-06T06:13:17 <Luke-Jr> address lookups are not possible with bitcoind
303 2015-10-06T06:13:17 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: Right now I wrote a basic JSON-RPC link between bitcoind and node.js server
304 2015-10-06T06:13:38 <Luke-Jr> unless you use btcdrak's fork, but be aware it is known to be broken
305 2015-10-06T06:13:51 <hardyred> Luke-Jr: So I would have to import that in to a db and then just query whenever a user searches
306 2015-10-06T06:13:58 <Luke-Jr> probably.
307 2015-10-06T06:13:59 <hardyred> Hopefully use some kind of caching :p
308 2015-10-06T06:14:29 <Luke-Jr> I have a custom-made software to act as an external address index, but it's got sharp edges and I do not plan to finish it
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310 2015-10-06T06:14:52 <hardyred> What language is it written in if you don't mind me asking?
311 2015-10-06T06:14:54 <Luke-Jr> C
312 2015-10-06T06:15:15 <hardyred> Fun fun fun
313 2015-10-06T06:15:18 <Luke-Jr> 1224 LOC total
314 2015-10-06T06:15:35 <hardyred> I haven't touched C/C++ in a few years, been mostly web dev so I will have to refresh my knowledge on that as well
315 2015-10-06T06:15:49 <hardyred> By chance have you read Andreas's book on Bitcoin?
316 2015-10-06T06:15:51 <Luke-Jr> total about 2 GB of index data, as of 1 year ago :p
317 2015-10-06T06:16:16 <hardyred> Asking whether you would recommend it as a refresher/book for technical information
318 2015-10-06T06:16:21 <Luke-Jr> no, he asked me to go over it and make corrections a while ago, but I never found time
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320 2015-10-06T06:16:36 <Luke-Jr> I would recommend the developer docs on bitcoin.org, and the Bitcoin Wiki
321 2015-10-06T06:16:41 <hardyred> Gotcha
322 2015-10-06T06:17:05 <hardyred> So one last question, I can check but unfortunately I have to leave very soon
323 2015-10-06T06:17:29 <hardyred> Earlier you said it would be helpful to display "input UTXO ids, input scriptSig, and for outputs both addresses as well as UTXO indexes" - would this information all be accessible through bitcoind?
324 2015-10-06T06:17:45 <Luke-Jr> if you enable txindex, yes
325 2015-10-06T06:17:46 <hardyred> getrawtransaction
326 2015-10-06T06:17:54 <Luke-Jr> right
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328 2015-10-06T06:18:16 <hardyred> Ok perfect, thank you a ton! I will be playing around for the next few days with this
329 2015-10-06T06:18:19 <Luke-Jr> np
330 2015-10-06T06:18:38 <hardyred> Gonna get off here, I believe you are in NA so have a good rest of the evening
331 2015-10-06T06:19:18 <jcorgan> a good block explorer would help people understand the changes to the subset of the UTXO set they care about, as each block arrived
332 2015-10-06T06:19:20 <Luke-Jr> I am in Florida, USA, where it is 2:19 AM :p
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371 2015-10-06T07:18:39 <btcdrak> warren: any news on the new list?
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381 2015-10-06T07:39:14 <Luke-Jr> ^
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384 2015-10-06T07:48:42 <btcdrak> warren: it's really important we get that setup sooner than later. The noise level is ramping up again.
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413 2015-10-06T08:24:22 <heretolearn> anyone has advice on how wallets should handle deposits/withdrawals properly in light of latest malleability nuisance
414 2015-10-06T08:25:21 <CodeShark> don't rely on the signed hash for tracking them
415 2015-10-06T08:25:27 <CodeShark> instead, use a normalized unsigned hash
416 2015-10-06T08:25:37 <Luke-Jr> …
417 2015-10-06T08:25:51 <Luke-Jr> heretolearn: #bitcoin
418 2015-10-06T08:26:04 <CodeShark> oh, I thought this was #bitcoin, Luke-Jr :p
419 2015-10-06T08:26:19 <heretolearn> Luke-Jr there, thanks
420 2015-10-06T08:26:29 <CodeShark> wrong window...
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785 2015-10-06T17:57:42 <jgarzik> warren, aaagh
786 2015-10-06T17:57:49 <jgarzik> warren, The noise on bitcoin-dev is driving me crazy.
787 2015-10-06T17:57:56 <jgarzik> warren, What's the status of that new list?
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812 2015-10-06T18:24:53 <stonecoldpat> 30+ emails in 1 day...
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814 2015-10-06T18:25:05 <btcdrak> jgarzik: I think we should start spamming warren hourly
815 2015-10-06T18:25:08 <stonecoldpat> does it cost to set up a new list? (ive never done it before
816 2015-10-06T18:25:27 <btcdrak> stonecoldpat: we're waiting for the list to get setup on LF
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818 2015-10-06T18:25:42 <jgarzik> btcdrak, ;p
819 2015-10-06T18:25:53 <btcdrak> that last email from V whoever he is is just jawdropping
820 2015-10-06T18:26:08 <stonecoldpat> btcdrak: *fingers crossed* its soon
821 2015-10-06T18:27:46 <moa> mind-numbing
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839 2015-10-06T18:52:32 <berndj> this time please don't announce the new list on reddit
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855 2015-10-06T19:10:52 <bsm1175321> Hey, look, I can delete a whole thread at once!
856 2015-10-06T19:11:53 <bsm1175321> Here's a funny idea: require a coding puzzle to join the mailing list. "What is the output of the following program"...
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879 2015-10-06T19:39:42 <jcorgan> whatever the plan is for the new list, it will attract the same bs if it is not strictly moderated
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892 2015-10-06T19:55:29 <jgarzik> jcorgan, A moderation policy will be announced - we are just waiting on the new list to do all that
893 2015-10-06T19:55:56 <jgarzik> jcorgan, (1) announce new policy "stay on topic; off topic goes $here" and (2) create new list $here
894 2015-10-06T19:56:57 <moa> i'm just piping mailing list directly to trash at present
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931 2015-10-06T20:42:49 <instagibbs> Piping in here: Don't be afraid to be a tyrant. I know "open list" sounds great, but seriously, just warn people, give them a few strikes, and nuke from orbit.
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1059 2015-10-06T20:52:49 <jcorgan> +1
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1076 2015-10-06T21:11:39 <EthanB> Hello I am a university student for software engineering interested in learning as much as I can about bitcoin development to hopefully assist in the near-future; where should I start?
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1082 2015-10-06T21:14:56 <btcdrak> ethanB: take a look at the github repo.
1083 2015-10-06T21:16:00 <bsm1175321> EthanB: I also recommend scouring the bitcoin wiki. http://en.bitcoinwiki.org/
1084 2015-10-06T21:16:16 <EthanB> github link?
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1086 2015-10-06T21:16:53 <btcdrak> github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin
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1178 2015-10-06T23:10:23 <harding> When signing a raw transaction spending a P2SH output, what data is temporarily placed in the scriptSig field during the signature operation? For P2PKH I know it's the scriptPubKey of the output being spent; but I just read that for P2SH it's the redeemScript. Is that correct?
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1180 2015-10-06T23:12:44 <phantomcircuit> harding, that doesn't sound right
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1182 2015-10-06T23:13:22 <harding> phantomcircuit: yeah, that sounded odd to me. I thought we'd just sign OP_HASH160 <Hash160(redeemScript)> OP_EQUAL
1183 2015-10-06T23:13:42 <phantomcircuit> yeah im pretty sure we just sign that
1184 2015-10-06T23:14:04 <harding> Thanks. I'll check code to confirm.
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1190 2015-10-06T23:23:41 <SpaceMonkey_> .
1191 2015-10-06T23:24:15 <SpaceMonkey_> Bonjour
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1205 2015-10-06T23:37:15 <harding> Weird, it does seem to sign the serialized redeemscript rather than the scriptPubKey: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/sign.cpp#L95
1206 2015-10-06T23:38:39 <phantomcircuit> harding, uint160
1207 2015-10-06T23:38:45 <harding> Oh.
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1209 2015-10-06T23:39:49 <phantomcircuit> it looks like it's signing just the hash? that seem wrong
1210 2015-10-06T23:39:54 <phantomcircuit> no that's right
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1222 2015-10-06T23:54:47 <warren> btcdrak: the call was rescheduled for Thursday
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1224 2015-10-06T23:55:35 <warren> Is anyone familiar with a previous analysis of bitcoin core software defect rates, and how it compares to other software?
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