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 166 2015-10-12T08:00:42  <jmcn> would running the 32bit version of bitcoind use significantly less memory?
 167 2015-10-12T08:01:23  <jmcn> (I have a dedicated machine (Intel Atom) with 2Gb memory and it's really not coping)
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 175 2015-10-12T08:13:28  <Luke-Jr> jmcn: #bitcoin
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 211 2015-10-12T09:46:15  <jmcn> Luke-Jr> thanks
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 300 2015-10-12T13:20:49  <harding> Hey, wumpus created an alert for Bitcoin.org about the upnp vulnerability.  Is anyone able to do a quick review before we go live?  https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1086
 301 2015-10-12T13:21:52  <harding> Oh, wait, maybe he was preparing that in advanced for when the 0.11.1/etc binaries go up.
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 317 2015-10-12T13:52:41  <wumpus> well review is good; but yes we should have at least rc binaries up before it can go live
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 326 2015-10-12T14:02:45  <harding> Ok.  Sorry, this took me by surprise and I thought it was more urgent.
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 387 2015-10-12T15:58:42  <OxADADA> did the new email list get created yet?
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 394 2015-10-12T16:02:40  <bsm1175321> There's supposed to be a meeting about it today.
 395 2015-10-12T16:03:00  <maaku> did the old list ever get shut down? you could just point people there ;)
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 397 2015-10-12T16:03:11  <jamesob> is the new list for devs, or general discussion/soapboxing?
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 400 2015-10-12T16:03:26  <maaku> general discussion, no soapboxing
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 402 2015-10-12T16:03:36  <jamesob> amen
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 422 2015-10-12T16:30:05  <cjcj> Question about python-bitcoinlib: I can sign a transaction and pass a check in VerifyScript just fine, but when I try to broadcast with sendrawtransaction I get the following error: mandatory-script-verify-flag-failed (Non-canonical DER signature)'  code: -26. Does someone know what I am doing wrong?
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 463 2015-10-12T17:05:28  <warren> Meeting regarding dev/discuss list policy in 1 hour 55 minutes.
 464 2015-10-12T17:07:35  *** CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-dev
 465 2015-10-12T17:08:12  <Texploit> @warren When is the HK dev shops? I need to know so i can get back from china in time. i know the main shop is dec. 6-7 but todd told me that there is something just before
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 470 2015-10-12T17:19:39  <floopflorg> how immediate is the "walletconflict" property filled on wallet transactions? I see that the "time" property is the same, but how reliable is it to be there when the transaction(s) first enter the mempool?
 471 2015-10-12T17:20:31  <floopflorg> (also, I am not sure if this an appropriate room to ask questions about tangeltal bitcoin dev such as this, but the main #bitcoin channel has generally not been help[ful on matters like this)
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 478 2015-10-12T17:28:59  <maaku> cjcj: what is going wrong is you have a non-canonical DER signature
 479 2015-10-12T17:29:09  <maaku> sign it with something else
 480 2015-10-12T17:29:34  <maaku> bitcoind can sign for you, with private keys passed in by JSON-RPC
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 482 2015-10-12T17:35:26  <floopflorg> So I am seeing that it gets the -1 conf and the conflict array when it is neither in the blockchain, nor the mempool. How long would that generally take from the time it is initially seen?
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 486 2015-10-12T17:40:01  <cjcj> maaku: Yes, I understand that, but is there something wrong with python-bitcoinlib then? I can see that it uses openssl for signing, but I am not savvy enough to locate where the issue might lie.
 487 2015-10-12T17:40:59  <cjcj> maaku: I'll try using the rpc for now, but am curious what is wrong with python-bitcoinlib
 488 2015-10-12T17:41:03  <cjcj> maaku: thanks
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 490 2015-10-12T17:42:14  <maaku> cjcj: maybe. this isn't really a python-bitcoinlib channel
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 492 2015-10-12T17:44:01  <cjcj> maaku: Ok, sorry
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 496 2015-10-12T17:52:24  <instagibbs> what's the best way to check current mempool size?
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 499 2015-10-12T17:53:18  <Apocalyptic> instagibbs, which mempool ?
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 501 2015-10-12T17:53:28  <instagibbs> local bitcoind instance?
 502 2015-10-12T17:54:08  <Apocalyptic> the "getmempoolinfo" rpc command
 503 2015-10-12T17:54:34  <Apocalyptic> (also this is #bitcoin material)
 504 2015-10-12T17:55:00  <instagibbs> huh, must have been looking at old list, and sorry
 505 2015-10-12T17:55:17  <instagibbs> It's for PR testing, but agreed
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 563 2015-10-12T18:57:58  <btcdrak> ping warren:
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 565 2015-10-12T18:59:51  <warren> btcdrak: let's see who is here.  I forgot this is a national holiday of 2+ countries when this date was set...
 566 2015-10-12T19:00:00  <warren> if we don't have enough people we need to reschedule
 567 2015-10-12T19:00:37  <btcdrak> ping jcorgan: jgarzik: wumpus:
 568 2015-10-12T19:01:24  <btcdrak> warren: what is to be discussed?
 569 2015-10-12T19:01:38  <warren> btcdrak: set policy for dev/discuss lists
 570 2015-10-12T19:02:27  <btcdrak> might have been better if we'd sent a heads up reminder earlier today
 571 2015-10-12T19:02:40  <wumpus> warren actually did
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 573 2015-10-12T19:03:03  <jcorgan> here
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 575 2015-10-12T19:03:45  <btcdrak> oops
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 577 2015-10-12T19:05:41  <warren> I move that we reschedule this meeting.  How about Thursday, one hour before the other meeting?
 578 2015-10-12T19:05:58  <wumpus> who do we need that is missing?
 579 2015-10-12T19:06:25  <btcdrak> I thought we had this pretty clear about list definitions already tbh
 580 2015-10-12T19:07:01  <morcos> i wasn't really planning on joining this meeting, but in my mind you haven't made it absolutely clear who the moderators of each list are.  are they the same?
 581 2015-10-12T19:07:01  <warren> jgarzik? morcos? petertodd? other people who were involved in list policy discussion.  I don't know, it just feels like we have too few people
 582 2015-10-12T19:07:23  <Luke-Jr> after the other meeting may be better
 583 2015-10-12T19:07:35  <warren> Luke-Jr: I personally have a meeting at that time
 584 2015-10-12T19:07:58  <jcorgan> you sent a meeting notice by email and i presume people accepted
 585 2015-10-12T19:08:02  <Luke-Jr> k, before should be fine too as long as someone notifies the ML of the time
 586 2015-10-12T19:08:09  <wumpus> it's usuallly impossible to schedule a meeting where everyone can be present, just plan a time and stick with it :)
 587 2015-10-12T19:08:19  <morcos> i think jgarzik is an important person to take the lead on this, he's a committer, he's viewed relatively neutrally with respect to this block size mess, and he's willing to put his foot down.  i'm hoping he'll take a bit of the lead here, at least on the bitcoin-dev list
 588 2015-10-12T19:08:24  <warren> I forgot today was a holiday
 589 2015-10-12T19:08:26  <warren> people are mising
 590 2015-10-12T19:08:29  <cfields> here
 591 2015-10-12T19:08:47  <btcdrak> cfields: here to talk about the new list policy
 592 2015-10-12T19:08:54  <cfields> roger
 593 2015-10-12T19:09:08  <warren> ok, who else other than jgarzik do folks think should be here?
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 595 2015-10-12T19:09:38  <morcos> CodeShark had offered to moderate as well i think, but we have enough people if we have enough volunteers.
 596 2015-10-12T19:09:41  <btcdrak> warren: are we talking about the administrators of bitcoin-dev@ ?
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 598 2015-10-12T19:10:16  <warren> ok, who will be the group of moderators?  how about we decide now who they are, and they decide on policy.
 599 2015-10-12T19:10:38  <morcos> to that point i'd say we start by splitting this in two.  if we have a couple of people who will take responsibility for one list and a couple for the other, then yes, agreed warren
 600 2015-10-12T19:10:52  <morcos> but is it the same moderators for each list, i'm still not clear on that.
 601 2015-10-12T19:11:04  <Luke-Jr> warren: eh, not sure policy should be decided by the mods..
 602 2015-10-12T19:11:34  <jcorgan> i'll be happy to mod the -dev list, but not the -discuss one
 603 2015-10-12T19:11:42  <btcdrak> warren: I think what is more important is to set what is on topic for  each list, much moire important than moderators.
 604 2015-10-12T19:12:08  <morcos> btcdrak: part of my point is many of us might not care what the topic is for the -discuss list
 605 2015-10-12T19:12:26  <morcos> i think the topic for the -dev list is relatively clear right?
 606 2015-10-12T19:12:34  <morcos> _technical_ development
 607 2015-10-12T19:12:39  <Luke-Jr> same as this channel, IMO
 608 2015-10-12T19:12:42  <btcdrak> morcos: I am of the view that anything goes on -discuss, but -dev should be quite specific
 609 2015-10-12T19:12:45  <Luke-Jr> except more strictly on-topic
 610 2015-10-12T19:12:54  <btcdrak> morcos: yes
 611 2015-10-12T19:13:29  <jcorgan> also, "anything goes" is not appropriate for -discuss, there is proper list etiquette and decorum for any list
 612 2015-10-12T19:13:58  <warren> OK, we don't need to decide on exactly who now
 613 2015-10-12T19:14:01  <Luke-Jr> jcorgan: well, "anything goes" in terms of topics accepted is not an invitation to violate proper etiquette
 614 2015-10-12T19:14:02  <btcdrak> So bitcoin-dev, technical discussion relating to bitcoin development and the protocol. bitcoin-discuss for general discussions about bitcoin
 615 2015-10-12T19:14:06  <warren> and it was a little short sighted to let them set policy
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 617 2015-10-12T19:14:28  <warren> How do we do this better than last time?
 618 2015-10-12T19:14:29  <morcos> we need to try to decide on who
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 620 2015-10-12T19:14:45  <warren> bitcoin and bistoin-test list existed at sourceforge.  nobody used it.
 621 2015-10-12T19:14:46  *** complete has joined #bitcoin-dev
 622 2015-10-12T19:15:08  <Luke-Jr> IMO whoever is willing to try to be unbiased and enforce the policy
 623 2015-10-12T19:15:15  <morcos> agreed
 624 2015-10-12T19:15:15  <btcdrak> usual "dont be a dick" rules apply for etiquette surely: i.e. no personal attacks on either lists, no doxxing, etc.
 625 2015-10-12T19:15:27  <Luke-Jr> (preferably not people who have better things to spend time on)
 626 2015-10-12T19:15:34  *** complete is now known as Nothing-
 627 2015-10-12T19:15:49  * warren finds URL
 628 2015-10-12T19:16:13  <warren> https://lwn.net/Articles/659221/
 629 2015-10-12T19:16:29  <jcorgan> i do think that the -dev list serves to increase the productivity of actual developers, so anything that detracts from that goal should be frowned upon
 630 2015-10-12T19:16:51  * Luke-Jr in #bitcoin [19:16:24] <Luke-Jr> anyone semi-technical who might be able to contribute to moderating the dev ML please join #bitcoin-dev especially if you can't contribute code
 631 2015-10-12T19:17:07  <morcos> yikes
 632 2015-10-12T19:17:20  <warren> TLDR: Linux kernel mailing list has been known for being a brutal place.  Sarah Sharp @ Intel tried to improve the expected standard of respect between developers and ended up quitting.  Should we attempt to set a higher standard for our own dev list?
 633 2015-10-12T19:17:48  <morcos> i don't think we're at that problem right now.
 634 2015-10-12T19:17:50  <GreenIsMyPepper> wait is the meeting for -discuss now or is it moved to thurs?
 635 2015-10-12T19:18:06  <morcos> i think our problems are more basic
 636 2015-10-12T19:18:06  <Luke-Jr> warren: there is such a thing as taking it too far also
 637 2015-10-12T19:18:17  <btcdrak> yes. people like sipa have unsubscribed exactly because the list became a rabble.
 638 2015-10-12T19:18:23  <warren> GreenIsMyPepper: it's possible we're making substantive progress on deciding what we want, in addition to meeting to planning the next meeting
 639 2015-10-12T19:18:28  <GreenIsMyPepper> ok
 640 2015-10-12T19:18:42  <morcos> ok, so jcorgan volunteered for -dev, do you want to connect with jgarzik, and the two of you find a 3rd moderator if you want and then take it from there
 641 2015-10-12T19:18:56  <jcorgan> it's not up to me
 642 2015-10-12T19:19:00  *** n0n0__ has quit IRC
 643 2015-10-12T19:19:01  <morcos> we can always un annoint you moderator if you suck
 644 2015-10-12T19:19:05  <morcos> :)
 645 2015-10-12T19:19:26  <morcos> i'm just trying to move us towards having a usable -dev list again
 646 2015-10-12T19:19:33  <jcorgan> agree entirely.
 647 2015-10-12T19:19:46  <warren> morcos: we do have more basic problems like on-topicness enforcement not happening yet, but I wonder if we should also use this opportunity to set expectations
 648 2015-10-12T19:19:52  <warren> of professional conduct
 649 2015-10-12T19:19:54  <morcos> once -discuss exists, and someone is willing to boot people off -dev if they don't willingly move to -discuss, thats the critical first step
 650 2015-10-12T19:20:00  <morcos> we can improve the rest as we go
 651 2015-10-12T19:20:02  <wumpus> warren: linux mailing list is different problem, uncomparable imo
 652 2015-10-12T19:20:05  <jcorgan> my only issue is timeliness, and we should have multiple moderators to provide coverage
 653 2015-10-12T19:20:11  <Luke-Jr> morcos: boot threads, not people
 654 2015-10-12T19:20:24  <wumpus> problem with bitcon-dev is not so much that it's a 'brutal place', but that it's wildly off topic for development
 655 2015-10-12T19:20:25  <stonecoldpat> the biggest problem with the list today is just personality attacks or steering off-topic
 656 2015-10-12T19:20:31  <morcos> well thats a good question, do we boot people if they repeatedly violate the topic
 657 2015-10-12T19:20:31  <stonecoldpat> (from my perspective)
 658 2015-10-12T19:21:00  <jcorgan> i'm in favor of giving people exactly one opportunity to demonstrate they can change their behavior
 659 2015-10-12T19:21:07  <Luke-Jr> morcos: if they ever contribute anything on-topic, we shouldn't boot them
 660 2015-10-12T19:21:24  <btcdrak> warren: it's important we preserve the way the dev list used to be. A place not only for discussion about the bitcoin protocol, of BIPs but also a place where people would publish their technical papers. The list was, until recently a pretty reliable, and low traffic place others in the ecosystem could keep up to date of technical developments, and progress.
 661 2015-10-12T19:21:33  <Luke-Jr> morcos: also, people should never be blocked from reading
 662 2015-10-12T19:21:51  <wumpus> everyone can read the archives
 663 2015-10-12T19:21:55  <warren> rusty mentioned that he uses a different approach for expectation setting on lightning-dev list, perhaps we should think about it for -dev list.
 664 2015-10-12T19:21:55  <morcos> Luke-Jr: there has to be some kind of consequnce. i think people should be warned (i'd have maybe said more than one strike) but then they are tempoarily banned if they can't change behavior.  its to protect the rest of us
 665 2015-10-12T19:22:31  <btcdrak> warren: what is rusty's method?
 666 2015-10-12T19:22:39  <warren> rusty sets the moderation bit enabled by default for new subscribers.  Their first post gets stuck, he sends a personal message about expectation setting (on-topic rules, etc) and approves the message and unsets moderation bit.
 667 2015-10-12T19:23:08  *** alpalp has quit IRC
 668 2015-10-12T19:23:18  <jcorgan> that works well ime but is labor intensive
 669 2015-10-12T19:23:22  <warren> That sounds OK-ish for a new list, might have drawbacks though.  Unpopular on-topic posts might be silenced entirely.
 670 2015-10-12T19:23:51  *** supasonic has joined #bitcoin-dev
 671 2015-10-12T19:24:18  <btcdrak> warren: I would not like that on bitcoin-dev. Rather we should do it the other way round. If someone does not conform to the wishes of the moderators, then they get the moderation bit set on their account
 672 2015-10-12T19:24:25  <jcorgan> popularity/unpopularity of a topic should never be a criteria, only on-topicness and professional behavior
 673 2015-10-12T19:24:27  <morcos> btcdrak: +1
 674 2015-10-12T19:24:30  *** tawster_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
 675 2015-10-12T19:24:32  <morcos> jcorgan: +!
 676 2015-10-12T19:25:27  <morcos> warren: what does it take to make -discuss live?
 677 2015-10-12T19:25:32  <jcorgan> agree with btcdrak
 678 2015-10-12T19:25:41  <morcos> even without a moderator, we can all yell at people to move there, once its live
 679 2015-10-12T19:26:19  <btcdrak> as far as policy enforcement goes it should be clear we are only trying to raise the focus and quality of discussion on bitcoin-dev and provide a spillover for more general discussion and philosophy, but that good behaviour is expected on both lists.
 680 2015-10-12T19:26:26  <bsm1175321> FWIW, bitcoin-dev has been fairly civil for the last week. It seems a certain combative poster has stopped or been banned. Open discussion forums can never be 100% signal...perhaps we don't need a new list. If some people learned to ignore bad behavior, is it enough?
 681 2015-10-12T19:26:33  <btcdrak> morcos: -discuss is actually live already
 682 2015-10-12T19:26:41  <GreenIsMyPepper> it might be necessary to have reasonable scope for -discuss though, egregiously bad topics should be discouraged entirely not have -discuss completely as a dumping ground
 683 2015-10-12T19:27:02  <stonecoldpat> GreenIsMyPepper: +1, i wouldnt want -discuss becoming another reddit
 684 2015-10-12T19:27:18  <jcorgan> yeah, i don't think -discuss should be view as spillover, but as a professional discussion list in its own right
 685 2015-10-12T19:27:26  <btcdrak> GreenIsMyPepper: bitcoin discussion, not a support forum for sure, no advertising.
 686 2015-10-12T19:27:38  <btcdrak> jcorgan: +1
 687 2015-10-12T19:27:47  <btcdrak> but maybe not a place for technical discussion
 688 2015-10-12T19:28:00  <morcos> yes and i think we also need moderators to have a strategy for "technical" discussion on -dev which just goes on and on in a back and forth between two people repeating the same thing.
 689 2015-10-12T19:28:02  <warren> jcorgan: I'd like to make professional behavior required, but that's more subjective than on-topic
 690 2015-10-12T19:28:05  <warren> ness
 691 2015-10-12T19:28:19  <warren> morcos: -discuss list already exists
 692 2015-10-12T19:28:56  <btcdrak> warren: we can certainly specify what is considered unprofessional (I already gave some examples above)
 693 2015-10-12T19:29:21  <morcos> i'd think it makes sense for moderators to issue private reminders to people, that although their thread may be on-topic'ish they may want to consider taking it off-list if it doesn't seem like something everyone wants to read.  they'll have to use their judgement of when things have degenerated
 694 2015-10-12T19:29:57  <jcorgan> there is also the point morcos brought up, which is how to terminate a thread that has exhausted its potential and is just going round and round with out progress
 695 2015-10-12T19:30:07  <warren> Another problem: Mailman 2 currently has a shared admin and shared moderator password.  Mailman 3 will have separate accounts for individual admins/mods, but it will be ~6 months before they are ready to upgrade it.
 696 2015-10-12T19:30:12  <jcorgan> that's a much more subjective call
 697 2015-10-12T19:30:22  <Luke-Jr> morcos: blocking the offending messages seems sufficient to "protect" most people
 698 2015-10-12T19:30:50  *** kristofferR has joined #bitcoin-dev
 699 2015-10-12T19:31:07  *** btc_panhandler has quit IRC
 700 2015-10-12T19:31:34  <stonecoldpat> is it possible to post blocked posts to an archive site? so at least people can see what is being blocked?
 701 2015-10-12T19:31:37  <jcorgan> warren: the password situation isn't ideal, but do you see a real issue?
 702 2015-10-12T19:31:38  *** patcon has joined #bitcoin-dev
 703 2015-10-12T19:32:02  <stonecoldpat> that way the list isnt censored as such, just access to our inboxes is restriced
 704 2015-10-12T19:32:21  *** btc_panhandler has joined #bitcoin-dev
 705 2015-10-12T19:32:44  *** snthsnth has joined #bitcoin-dev
 706 2015-10-12T19:33:08  <warren> jcorgan: need to be careful about who is a mod/admin as if someone behaves poorly it could be hard to figure out who did it?
 707 2015-10-12T19:33:11  <jcorgan> stonecoldpat: in the long past that was what killfiles did
 708 2015-10-12T19:34:10  <jcorgan> warren: hmm.  "if put into a position of trust by the community and allowed to be a list moderator, i hereby promise to never take any actions without identifying myself as the actor, if asked"
 709 2015-10-12T19:34:44  <btcdrak> warren: we can start small and see how things go
 710 2015-10-12T19:34:57  <stonecoldpat> jcorgan: im not familiar with killfiles (googled and it appears to be a virus? i doubt it), but how did that approach go generally?
 711 2015-10-12T19:35:08  <btcdrak> I expect the worst of the problems are over anyhow.
 712 2015-10-12T19:35:28  <jcorgan> it was a filter you could use that would redirect mail from certain recipients to /dev/null
 713 2015-10-12T19:36:03  <warren> Other problem: While it would be a major improvement to shunt non-dev discussion from -dev list, I don't think we're being honest about -discuss list.
 714 2015-10-12T19:36:04  <jcorgan> same purpose and semantics as /ignore here on irc
 715 2015-10-12T19:36:28  <btcdrak> stonecoldpat: we have the limitations of mailman. If people get moderated it will be because they have behaved badly and refused to a bait
 716 2015-10-12T19:36:34  <warren> Let's be real, do smart people really want to educate people on -discuss list?
 717 2015-10-12T19:36:36  <warren> Will you do it?
 718 2015-10-12T19:36:38  *** kristofferR has quit IRC
 719 2015-10-12T19:36:42  <warren> If not, this isn't honest, IMHO.
 720 2015-10-12T19:36:57  <GreenIsMyPepper> i think it'd be more interesting to frame it as a discussion about meta bitcoin topics. i.e. not reddit. perhaps this can be reframed by calling the list bitcoin-meta, names are important..
 721 2015-10-12T19:37:21  <warren> A better approach might be to collaboratively work on a FAQ so the educative function is better automated.
 722 2015-10-12T19:38:08  <GreenIsMyPepper> (but i concede that's a little bit aggressive in limiting the scope of the list)
 723 2015-10-12T19:38:15  <jcorgan> that might be true, but -discuss should serve more than just "educating people"
 724 2015-10-12T19:38:30  <btcdrak> warren: -discuss should not be a place to educate others or give support. it's definitely not the purpose of the list. The purpose is to be a place for the non-technical/protocol discussions/philosophy debates.
 725 2015-10-12T19:38:54  *** snthsnth has quit IRC
 726 2015-10-12T19:39:31  <warren> btcdrak: good luck with that
 727 2015-10-12T19:39:39  <warren> you can state it
 728 2015-10-12T19:39:56  <jcorgan> i see mailing lists as a tool to increase productivity.  for -dev, it is to increase the productivity of developers with development related discussions.  for bitcoin users -discuss should help them be more productive with using bitcoin, whether that be help or debating philosophy
 729 2015-10-12T19:40:40  <jcorgan> #bitcoin used to be like that
 730 2015-10-12T19:40:43  <warren> Who is willing to put time into making the -discuss list actually used?
 731 2015-10-12T19:40:54  *** cjcj has quit IRC
 732 2015-10-12T19:40:59  <warren> I don't see this as particularly honest if the smart people ignore it entirely
 733 2015-10-12T19:41:04  <jcorgan> what does that actually mean?
 734 2015-10-12T19:41:18  <jcorgan> of course there are smart people who aren't developers?
 735 2015-10-12T19:41:31  <warren> telling people to "go there" where all the other garbage that is ignored is posted?
 736 2015-10-12T19:41:39  *** Ducky- has quit IRC
 737 2015-10-12T19:41:44  <wumpus> smart people can pay attention to it if they like, no way to force them
 738 2015-10-12T19:41:50  <warren> These non-dev lists have existed before, nobody used it.
 739 2015-10-12T19:41:51  *** Syntax360 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 740 2015-10-12T19:42:07  <warren> that being said, we don't have a better option, so we do it.
 741 2015-10-12T19:42:27  <morcos> warren: why is it the responsibility of people that want a highly focused technical list to address the unknown needs of other people who may want to discuss something else
 742 2015-10-12T19:42:37  <wumpus> and people can talk with each other there... I don't see it as realistic that everything would be ignored
 743 2015-10-12T19:42:54  <stonecoldpat> warren: i dont think you need the smartest people in a -discuss, and id be surprised if a subset of -dev did not follow it anyway
 744 2015-10-12T19:42:59  <warren> morcos: technically it isn't, I'm just pointing out that trying to state a purpose for the other list is kind of over optimistic
 745 2015-10-12T19:43:34  <warren> Let's go back to the action items.
 746 2015-10-12T19:43:41  <jcorgan> i don't think you make technical discussions off-topic in bitcoin, people should be free to engage that way there
 747 2015-10-12T19:43:59  <warren> jcorgan: huh?  nobody suggested that
 748 2015-10-12T19:44:15  <jcorgan> that didn't come out right
 749 2015-10-12T19:44:29  <jcorgan> i mean, -discuss shouldn't be assumed to be "less technical"
 750 2015-10-12T19:44:40  <warren> Who were the moderators that we agreed upon for -dev list?
 751 2015-10-12T19:44:51  <stonecoldpat> for the -dev, it may be good to propose ways to post to the list, i.e. professional, quoting parts of the proposal that you want to discuss, etc. Some of the e-mails that make the list aren't always clear what exactly they are discussing in the proposal
 752 2015-10-12T19:45:23  <GreenIsMyPepper> jcorgan: i agree, that's a very important point, there especially shouldn't be a "move this to -dev"
 753 2015-10-12T19:45:25  *** Nothing- is now known as Nothing_
 754 2015-10-12T19:46:04  <GreenIsMyPepper> unless it was proposing changes to bitcoin/code etc
 755 2015-10-12T19:46:44  <jcorgan> i'm willing to help -discuss become what we're suggesting here, i just may not have the timeliness to deal with an expected high volume of traffic, and would expect there to be multiple mods
 756 2015-10-12T19:47:06  <jcorgan> surely i'm not the only masochist here
 757 2015-10-12T19:47:20  <stonecoldpat> jcorgan: i'm willing to help either as well, so you won't be alone :)
 758 2015-10-12T19:47:22  <GreenIsMyPepper> i'm also willing to help, but with the caveat that i only check email twice daily
 759 2015-10-12T19:47:34  <warren> who is stonecoldpat, btw?
 760 2015-10-12T19:47:46  <morcos> warren: i proposed jcorgan, who volunteered, jgarzik, who isn't heare, but volunteered earlier, and some unnamed 3rd that the two of them found.  for -dev mods
 761 2015-10-12T19:47:54  <jcorgan> a diversity of trusted moderators with overlapping styles and time zones would be a good thing
 762 2015-10-12T19:48:01  <stonecoldpat> warren: i'm a phd student @ newcastle uni
 763 2015-10-12T19:48:41  <warren> I nominated GreenIsMyPepper as mod, mainly because he was there at that moment and seemed like a good idea in my mind.
 764 2015-10-12T19:50:32  <jcorgan> i'm not wedded to the idea, happy to help out if i can, but it's really up to you guys
 765 2015-10-12T19:50:43  *** GuruMonk has joined #bitcoin-dev
 766 2015-10-12T19:51:01  <warren> wumpus: would it be reasonable to ask the project leader to make a decision here?
 767 2015-10-12T19:51:51  *** tawster_ has quit IRC
 768 2015-10-12T19:51:52  *** weems has quit IRC
 769 2015-10-12T19:52:17  *** InternetFriend has quit IRC
 770 2015-10-12T19:53:27  <btcdrak> I think some input from wumpus is essential.
 771 2015-10-12T19:54:17  <warren> OK, the REAL meeting is Thursday, one hour prior to the other meeting.
 772 2015-10-12T19:54:35  <btcdrak> golly, a whole hour before?
 773 2015-10-12T19:55:01  <wumpus> what do you need me to say here?
 774 2015-10-12T19:55:18  <jcorgan> i might miss the beginning, but said mostly what i wanted to say here already
 775 2015-10-12T19:55:22  *** weems has joined #bitcoin-dev
 776 2015-10-12T19:55:27  <wumpus> I like the bitcoin-discuss idea, have been in favor of splitting up the mailing list from the beginning
 777 2015-10-12T19:56:25  <warren> wumpus: 1) decide on who are the -dev moderators 2) decide on list policy, or delegate who drafts the policy 3) decide on who approves the list policy
 778 2015-10-12T19:56:35  <wumpus> I have no time or inclination to play babysitter though
 779 2015-10-12T19:57:17  <warren> I proposed to LF that they host a simple static website for the lists, which will 1) list all the lists 2) host the policy 3) allow github pull requests to update it
 780 2015-10-12T19:57:31  <wumpus> I think we should just pick some people for moderators that are interested in this and bother to be here
 781 2015-10-12T19:57:45  <cfields> warren: i don't think those burdens fall on a particular implementation's maintainer
 782 2015-10-12T19:58:32  <warren> cfields: then somebody make a decision, or whoever bothers to show up on Thursday votes on ratifying that decision
 783 2015-10-12T19:58:54  *** nwilcox has quit IRC
 784 2015-10-12T19:59:17  <wumpus> as for list policy, that's not really my thing, would prefer if someone else writes that
 785 2015-10-12T19:59:37  *** molly has joined #bitcoin-dev
 786 2015-10-12T20:00:05  <warren> I need to move on to <another meeting>, we talk about this again 1 hour prior to the Thursday meeting.
 787 2015-10-12T20:00:14  <warren> I don't know that time in UTC.
 788 2015-10-12T20:00:30  *** nwilcox has joined #bitcoin-dev
 789 2015-10-12T20:01:30  <morcos> sigh... jcorgan and jgarzik as initial -dev mods.  GreenIsMyPepper is welcome to join if he wants
 790 2015-10-12T20:01:45  <btcdrak> yeah fine with me
 791 2015-10-12T20:01:47  <morcos> all in favor.  aye
 792 2015-10-12T20:01:52  <btcdrak> aye
 793 2015-10-12T20:02:15  <wumpus> yeah
 794 2015-10-12T20:02:19  *** moli has quit IRC
 795 2015-10-12T20:02:26  <GreenIsMyPepper> warren: 18:00 UTC / 11:00 Pacific
 796 2015-10-12T20:02:56  <warren> https://lwn.net/Articles/659884/  SCSI subsystem maintainer James Bottomley has posted a different view on the issue of civility on the kernel's mailing lists. "So, by and large, I’m proud of the achievements we’ve made in civility and the way we have improved over the years. Are we perfect? by no means (but then perfection in such a large community isn’t a realistic goal). However, we have passed our stress test: that an individual with b
 797 2015-10-12T20:02:56  <warren> ad patches to several mailing lists was met with courtesy and helpful advice, in spite of serially repeating the behaviour."
 798 2015-10-12T20:03:38  <warren> Hmm, OK, I guess if we did focus the topic on -dev list, we aren't nearly as brutal as lkml.
 799 2015-10-12T20:04:23  <GreenIsMyPepper> morcos: sure / aye
 800 2015-10-12T20:04:49  *** tawster_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
 801 2015-10-12T20:04:50  *** CodeShark has quit IRC
 802 2015-10-12T20:05:04  <jcorgan> heh, i don't think lkml gets much in the way of "the purpose of linux is <my specific ideological hobby horse> and you must be evil to want to change it".
 803 2015-10-12T20:05:08  <jcorgan> or maybe it does :-)
 804 2015-10-12T20:05:19  <btcdrak> warren: you know it might be a good idea to ask sipa what kind of conditions would make him more willing to rejoin the -dev list again. Frankly the list have been severely neutered with key people no longer reading it.
 805 2015-10-12T20:05:19  *** CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-dev
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 807 2015-10-12T20:05:22  <kanzure> jcorgan: before linux there was already pre-existing understanding of what kernels were
 808 2015-10-12T20:06:11  <warren> btcdrak: ok, I'll ask
 809 2015-10-12T20:06:13  <morcos> btcdrak: i agree we want people like sipa to rejoin, but i think we all know what it takes. lets not put more responsibility on their plates.  if he doesn't rejoin after these guys clean up the list
 810 2015-10-12T20:06:22  <morcos> then we can say, what haven't we done yet
 811 2015-10-12T20:06:37  <GreenIsMyPepper> jcorgan: you mean comp.os.minix? :^)
 812 2015-10-12T20:06:55  <btcdrak> morcos: for me personally, there's no point in the dev list if key people dont read it. My priority is to try fix that.
 813 2015-10-12T20:07:27  <warren> jcorgan: btcdrak: are your GPG keys well connected?  need to know where/how to send the passwords securely
 814 2015-10-12T20:07:29  <kanzure> for the non-dev mailing list, if you want it to stick and hold, then i recommend getting a few non-development-related emails from the recent archives, and queue them up to seed the other mailing list
 815 2015-10-12T20:07:38  <jcorgan> not really
 816 2015-10-12T20:07:40  <kanzure> this way there is some amount of activity that you can point to, showing tha the mailing list is not dead
 817 2015-10-12T20:07:42  <warren> I'll separately send the list admin passwords to wumpus
 818 2015-10-12T20:07:46  <btcdrak> warren: mine is signed by petertodd
 819 2015-10-12T20:07:56  <morcos> btcdrak: mine too!  thats why i'm trying to move this towards action instead of talking.  sipa doesn't want to be responsible for determining the topic and mods of the list (at least thats my guess).  nobody wants to make decisions for everyone else
 820 2015-10-12T20:07:59  <bsm1175321> Sipa has little patience. That's his problem. I don't think engineering a list to his standards is a reasonable goal. We all have to learn to ignore a certain amount of noise, and not engage the trolls.
 821 2015-10-12T20:08:28  <morcos> bsm1175321: that's unfair, but we've gotten off topic
 822 2015-10-12T20:08:29  <kanzure> part of the problem is that none of the developers are extremely interested in a non-dev mailing list, and they tend to be the one writing the most emails anyway, so... anyway, taking action like i proposed would be necessary to convince others to actually use another mailing list (unless you want to use the banhammer a lot, which is fine, but exhausting)
 823 2015-10-12T20:08:33  <btcdrak> morcos: right, but I mean if we understand his criterion (that make him comfortably being on the list) it helps us make decisions.
 824 2015-10-12T20:08:34  <wumpus> it's not about him specifically
 825 2015-10-12T20:08:51  <CodeShark> Just got here and caught up with the convo...
 826 2015-10-12T20:08:54  <bsm1175321> +1 kanzure.
 827 2015-10-12T20:09:08  <bsm1175321> I don't want any part of bitcoin-discuss.
 828 2015-10-12T20:09:30  <kanzure> you can use pre-existing email from bitcoin-dev mailing list recent history to seed the other mailing list
 829 2015-10-12T20:09:39  <kanzure> you can either replay the emails or just put them in the archive (i dunno which would be better)
 830 2015-10-12T20:10:13  <wumpus> but telling people to just 'we have to learn to ignore noise' is unreasonable, not everyone has time to track a high-traffic mailing list with lots of non dev related talk to find e.g. BIP proposals
 831 2015-10-12T20:10:32  <CodeShark> the idea of -discuss arose in a very specific context...one of discord and acrimony between core devs
 832 2015-10-12T20:10:42  <bsm1175321> How many times has lkml forked and reformed because of the noise there?
 833 2015-10-12T20:10:47  <warren> it's usually very rude to auto-subscribe people to a discussion list
 834 2015-10-12T20:10:59  <btcdrak> wumpus: I agree with you. And the -dev list never used to be this rowdy. it only started this the blitz
 835 2015-10-12T20:10:59  <wumpus> lkml doesn't have that much noise at all, it's all about linux kernel development
 836 2015-10-12T20:11:11  <kanzure> in the future we will have far more developers that are completely unfamiliar with how communication in open-source projects tends to work
 837 2015-10-12T20:11:19  <CodeShark> If not for that, there'd be no pushbash to just having little tolerance to nontech talk in -dev
 838 2015-10-12T20:11:30  <bsm1175321> wumpus: in the early days it had a lot more noise.  But nose makers were ignored, and the list became more technical.
 839 2015-10-12T20:11:33  <wumpus> if you start a topic there about the e.g. economics of linux you're going to have trouble very soon
 840 2015-10-12T20:11:44  <warren> bsm1175321: lkml has sub-lists for focused discussion of certain things prior to it being ready for lkml
 841 2015-10-12T20:11:54  <kanzure> you should nominate not just a moderator for the -discuss mailing list, but someone who will actively source contributions and tend to that garden (in a productive way). nobody wants to subscribe to a "send cypherpunk spam here" mailing list.
 842 2015-10-12T20:12:12  <morcos> what actually has to happen to give jcorgan, jgarzik and GreenIsMyPepper mod powers for -dev?
 843 2015-10-12T20:12:18  <btcdrak> bsm1175321: ignoring noise is just not a reasonable option, sorry.
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 845 2015-10-12T20:12:25  <warren> kanzure: that was my point earlier ...
 846 2015-10-12T20:12:40  <wumpus> btcdrak: problem is also that noise amplifies noise, people that want to make noise reply to other people that want to make noise
 847 2015-10-12T20:12:53  <wumpus> not all problems go away by ignoring them
 848 2015-10-12T20:12:59  <warren> morcos: sending them the password, and someone needs to draft the policy, we need to ratify it and post it
 849 2015-10-12T20:13:32  <btcdrak> wumpus: and then the noise buries the on topic replies in a thread. Becomes impossible, I agree.
 850 2015-10-12T20:13:53  <morcos> can we send them the password?  lets not let the perfect be enemy of the good here.  once those 3 people feel like its their responsibility to clean up the list, we'll be on our way
 851 2015-10-12T20:14:13  <wumpus> agree morcos
 852 2015-10-12T20:14:16  <bsm1175321> +1 morcos
 853 2015-10-12T20:14:28  <kanzure> how does lkml handle large quantities of content? surely there's >1k emails/day generated about kernel development.
 854 2015-10-12T20:14:41  <kanzure> i don't think they all get sent to lkml. so where do they go?
 855 2015-10-12T20:14:47  <btcdrak> morcos: yes. especially because the new list is already active to
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 857 2015-10-12T20:16:16  <kanzure> btcdrak: the number of complaints about signal/noise is only going to increase in the future. some individuals are completely opposed to any noise whatsoever, even if they would miss high signal items by accidently classifying those contributions as noise. not sure what to do about this long-term.
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 860 2015-10-12T20:17:20  <btcdrak> kanzure: we can improve the quality of the list very easily.
 861 2015-10-12T20:17:36  <CodeShark> the situation would be a lot less delicate were it not for the bitterness that arose between some core developers...and all this ultimately is a proxy battle, imho
 862 2015-10-12T20:18:02  <kanzure> i have noticed that many complaints about noise have been entirely unrelated to xt stuff
 863 2015-10-12T20:18:15  <btcdrak> CodeShark: there is no bitterness between core developers. There is bitterness from protagonists against people who do not share their views.
 864 2015-10-12T20:18:44  <helo> bitcoin is prime bikeshed land
 865 2015-10-12T20:19:23  <wumpus> helo: yes, it's as if no one ever agrees on anything
 866 2015-10-12T20:19:25  <bsm1175321> We are never going to agree on an appropriate signal/noise ratio, nor what constitutes signal or noise. Once upon a time this was handled personally using a kill file. The less time spent arguing over this, the better. So let's have those 3 share a password for now, and move on. I'll be happy to point people to procmail tutorials so they can dump offensive posters.
 867 2015-10-12T20:19:26  <kanzure> wumpus: some people seem to be better at reading high-volume traffic. i suggested a while back the concept of emailing summaries to the development list. individuals who can't read the noise would instead prefer to read from people summarizing recent developments.
 868 2015-10-12T20:20:04  <kanzure> killfiles are a good way to block totally unreliable sources of noise, but not a good way when you just want to ignore random "lol" comments from an otherwise good contributor
 869 2015-10-12T20:20:36  <wumpus> helo: difficult proposals sometimes go unheeded, but every little detail needs to be discussed to death
 870 2015-10-12T20:20:38  <btcdrak> warren: are we done for this meeting?
 871 2015-10-12T20:20:42  <kanzure> one of the tests that i use in my head is "will this solution work if there were 20,000 developers? what about 50,000?" and the answer is usually no.
 872 2015-10-12T20:20:54  <bsm1175321> kanzure: I've always relied on lwn.net for summaries of lkml development.  I love it. I wish someone would start a similar site for bitcoin.
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 874 2015-10-12T20:21:11  <kanzure> bsm1175321: actually i was thinking of summaries slightly shorter than that, but point taken.
 875 2015-10-12T20:21:27  <btcdrak> bsm1175321: someone started doing summaries of the weekly IRC meetings, they are pretty good.
 876 2015-10-12T20:21:34  <GreenIsMyPepper> so far the summaries of the #bitcoin-dev IRC meeting minutes have been excellent
 877 2015-10-12T20:21:58  <bsm1175321> They are good.  Here in NYC we do a biweekly meetup (BitDevsNYC) where we go over recent developments, but it doesn't make it onto the intertubes.
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 880 2015-10-12T20:23:05  <kanzure> is there any particular individual that anyone could recommend for proactively contributing to -discuss? e.g. like congress whip.
 881 2015-10-12T20:23:25  <kanzure> oh wait, no, wrong analogy
 882 2015-10-12T20:25:20  <bsm1175321> For reference, this is what Jonathan Corbet compiles from lkml on a weekly basis.  Would anybody here be willing to blog or summarize -dev and post to -discuss? http://lwn.net/Articles/658288/
 883 2015-10-12T20:25:34  <kanzure> summaries of -dev should be sent to -dev
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 885 2015-10-12T20:26:07  <bsm1175321> kanzure: the point is to move some discussion away from -dev.  ;-)
 886 2015-10-12T20:26:27  <kanzure> that's slightly more thorough than i was aiming for, i was actually thinking just two-four sentences per topic, then a link to where the contribution is from. but a few paragraphs per topic is fine with me, i don't care.
 887 2015-10-12T20:26:38  <kanzure> bsm1175321: i think the idea is to keep development discussion on -dev.
 888 2015-10-12T20:27:55  <bsm1175321> There's a set of people who don't/won't/can't contribute to development who still want to read about it. Having a reasonable place for them to discuss, without the temptation of the "reply" button would be nice.
 889 2015-10-12T20:28:33  <kanzure> i don't understand
 890 2015-10-12T20:29:05  <bsm1175321> ?
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 894 2015-10-12T20:34:44  <helo> summarizing the list would be quite an undertaking, but i bet it would help the quality of the list (particularly if comments were enabled) in the long run
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 896 2015-10-12T20:38:22  <kanzure> yes i should clarify that i don't mean comprehensive summaries, but rather summaries of whatever you happen to be interested in
 897 2015-10-12T20:39:15  <kanzure> high quality buckets of related content, some that might have been from a week or two ago, is much more valuable than a list of "here are all of the emails that were received this week" :-)
 898 2015-10-12T20:40:08  <kanzure> and also, doesn't have to be weekly; progress in privacy, anonymity, cryptography, etc. doesn't often happen on a regular schedule.
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 901 2015-10-12T20:41:56  <kanzure> for example, https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010759.html
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 903 2015-10-12T20:47:10  <jcorgan> there's someone doing something like that now for the weekly meeting, i imagine it is useful
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 906 2015-10-12T20:51:41  <jgarzik> btcdrak, sorry, couldn't physically be in IRC anytime sooner :(
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 908 2015-10-12T20:51:53  <jgarzik> warren, ^
 909 2015-10-12T20:51:58  <btcdrak> jgarzik: np. check the logs
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 926 2015-10-12T21:06:55  <morcos> jgarzik: i volunteered you.  :)
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