1 2015-10-13T00:00:40 <dhill> can someone run decodescript 6a5451 on bitcoin core tip (last 7 days or so)
2 2015-10-13T00:02:09 <petertodd> 9~
3 2015-10-13T00:02:15 <petertodd> dhill: one sec
4 2015-10-13T00:02:24 <dhill> yes, with your nulldata changes
5 2015-10-13T00:02:31 <dhill> is that nonstandard or nulldata
6 2015-10-13T00:02:56 <petertodd> dhill: nulldata
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8 2015-10-13T00:03:12 <petertodd> dhill: numeric pushes are nulldata
9 2015-10-13T00:03:22 <petertodd> dhill: I mean, like OP_1, OP_4, etc.
10 2015-10-13T00:03:24 <dhill> sweet, so my tests are good
11 2015-10-13T00:03:45 <dhill> it was nonstandard before your changes, yes?
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13 2015-10-13T00:03:50 <petertodd> dhill: yup
14 2015-10-13T00:03:55 <dhill> nice
15 2015-10-13T00:04:08 <petertodd> dhill: well, at least if you had two of them, one numeric constant push was standard for obscure reasons
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224 2015-10-13T07:27:50 <paulo_> if I wanted to write an altcoin from scratch with just the bare essentials, is there anything I should be wary of?
225 2015-10-13T07:28:08 <paulo_> I have a mostly complete understanding of how bitcoin works
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227 2015-10-13T07:28:43 <midnightmagic> paulo_: Yes, altcoins are offtopic in a good chunk of the #bitcoin* hierarchy.
228 2015-10-13T07:28:56 <paulo_> but stuff like spam protection and security edge cases are where i'm lacking
229 2015-10-13T07:29:38 <paulo_> oh ok. thanks though
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482 2015-10-13T16:20:19 <Cocodude> This is almost certainly a dumym question, but why do we have LOCK()s on what appear to be const read-only functions like CWallet::IsMine ?
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484 2015-10-13T16:22:26 <cfields> Cocodude: other functions touch class vars, looks like mapWallet in that case.
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487 2015-10-13T16:23:47 <Cocodude> cfields: Ah right, I'll look a little deeper, thanks
488 2015-10-13T16:24:35 <Cocodude> I'm looking into parallelising something but it's looking to be pretty tricky
489 2015-10-13T16:24:43 <cfields> Cocodude: locking isn't related to changing a var. The question is: can variables in this function change values in another thread while i'm looking at them here?
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491 2015-10-13T16:25:29 <cfields> er, isn't related to const'ness, i should say
492 2015-10-13T16:26:30 <Cocodude> My const, I really meant "no side effects", but I didn't look into the mapWallet stuff (I have no idea what that does yet)
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500 2015-10-13T16:37:50 <KutmasteR> the creator of the Ledger wallet in here at all? Couple questions
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561 2015-10-13T18:35:27 <andytoshi> OxADADA: replying to your -wizards stuff here
562 2015-10-13T18:35:45 <andytoshi> OxADADA: my library is https://github.com/apoelstra/rust-bitcoin which is actively maintained
563 2015-10-13T18:36:04 <OxADADA> andytoshi: thx
564 2015-10-13T18:36:06 <andytoshi> OxADADA: the wallet that exposed the script-tracing stuff over RPC is https://github.com/apoelstra/wizards-wallet and pretty-much needs to be rewritten
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566 2015-10-13T18:37:14 <OxADADA> ah, you're Andrew Poelstra, we just read your Altcoin treasise in my bitcoin class ;p
567 2015-10-13T18:37:18 <andytoshi> OxADADA: documentation for the lib is at https://www.wpsoftware.net/rustdoc/bitcoin/ ... looks like i forgot to put that in the github readme
568 2015-10-13T18:37:25 <andytoshi> o.O really? where?
569 2015-10-13T18:37:30 <OxADADA> MIT
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571 2015-10-13T18:37:48 <andytoshi> wow, i'm pretty flattered by that :P
572 2015-10-13T18:37:51 <OxADADA> andytoshi: http://blockchain.media.mit.edu/syllabus.html
573 2015-10-13T18:37:57 <OxADADA> its on the syllabus
574 2015-10-13T18:39:07 <OxADADA> neat.
575 2015-10-13T18:39:18 <andytoshi> very neat
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577 2015-10-13T18:40:45 <OxADADA> thx, i'll check those projects out.
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584 2015-10-13T18:48:15 <andytoshi> please do. pull requests are welcome for the library. for the wallet i dunno what to do about it, if you are actually interested in fixing it you should probably just fork it and take over
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628 2015-10-13T19:42:39 <castorsky> hi, I write software which need verify btc payment. For example check(payment, "0.3BTC") returned true if payment is valid, or false if not. It is possibly?
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630 2015-10-13T19:43:11 <castorsky> without blockchain
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638 2015-10-13T19:48:06 <Cocodude> Hello again. Question about locks and wallets again.
639 2015-10-13T19:49:05 <Cocodude> In wallet.cpp, in IsMine, there's a mutex lock. I don't see why it's there though as I don't think we're changing anything (even pointers / iterators) to do with the mapWallet. Am I missing something?
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641 2015-10-13T19:49:22 <jonasschnelli> Cocodude: which line?
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643 2015-10-13T19:49:50 <jonasschnelli> Do you mean: LOCK(cs_wallet);
644 2015-10-13T19:50:07 <Cocodude> jonasschnelli: Yes
645 2015-10-13T19:50:12 <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet/wallet.cpp#L793
646 2015-10-13T19:50:37 <jonasschnelli> The lock is there because we are reading from mapWallet
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648 2015-10-13T19:51:05 <jonasschnelli> Cocodude: reading also needs the lock
649 2015-10-13T19:51:21 <Cocodude> jonasschnelli: Oh yes, in case it changes in another thread
650 2015-10-13T19:52:01 <jonasschnelli> Cocodude: Right.
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653 2015-10-13T19:52:48 <Cocodude> I'm changing something in the initialisation section (regarding scanning) where I think there won't be any writing to the mapWallet, or at least I might be able to work around things, so I may write an alternate IsMine
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659 2015-10-13T19:56:01 <Cocodude> Actually, this might be harder than I thought. It looks like anything involving the wallet is pretty hard to parallelise
660 2015-10-13T19:57:17 <jonasschnelli> Cocodude: The wallet works fine with multiple threads accessing it. The locking is suboptimal.
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662 2015-10-13T20:00:20 <Cocodude> Will investigate further and see what can be done. Thanks.
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667 2015-10-13T20:07:35 <Cocodude> jonasschnelli: Just bouncing this off you - is there any possibility that I could change the locks on the wallet to require a shared mutex (reads) or unique mutex (writes)?
668 2015-10-13T20:10:07 <jonasschnelli> Cocodude: Not sure. Try it. :)
669 2015-10-13T20:10:23 <Cocodude> Great, will do
670 2015-10-13T20:11:15 <Cocodude> Do we use shared mutexes anywhere in core at all?
671 2015-10-13T20:11:28 <Cocodude> I can't see anything in sync.h
672 2015-10-13T20:12:15 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-dev
673 2015-10-13T20:13:07 <jonasschnelli> logdb, a new file backend for the/a wallet uses it: https://github.com/jonasschnelli/bitcoin/commit/d810c6fde476f2177c92b41675f1b4da2be5e20d
674 2015-10-13T20:13:27 <jonasschnelli> (untested code)
675 2015-10-13T20:13:38 <jonasschnelli> Its the only place i'm aware of.
676 2015-10-13T20:13:48 <jonasschnelli> but it's not in bitcoin-core master
677 2015-10-13T20:14:45 <Cocodude> Interesting. OK, thanks. On the face of it, it looks near trivial to use shared mutexes actually, and some new SLOCK(x) analogies to LOCK(x) could quite easily be created... in theory
678 2015-10-13T20:15:37 *** moli has joined #bitcoin-dev
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680 2015-10-13T20:16:50 <cfields> Cocodude: iirc, that's been rejected in the past due to the overhead of boost's implementation
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683 2015-10-13T20:18:13 <Cocodude> cfields: Shame, that puts a dampner on that plan
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688 2015-10-13T20:20:53 <jtimon> have we decided on consensus code moving towards C++11 or C ?
689 2015-10-13T20:21:20 * jtimon prefers plain C
690 2015-10-13T20:23:27 * jtimon is thinking about the use of std::map in #6816
691 2015-10-13T20:28:37 *** InternetFriend has joined #bitcoin-dev
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693 2015-10-13T20:33:37 <andytoshi> i strongly prefer C, but i'm barely involved with core so that's all i'll say on that
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696 2015-10-13T20:35:52 <jtimon> I mean, libsecp is also in C, it makes a lot of sense to me
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701 2015-10-13T20:37:36 <jtimon> I'm asking because we should have this clear when making any type of changes to consensus code (sometimes it will be "free" (review and/or test-wise) to move it in one or another direction)
702 2015-10-13T20:37:45 *** InternetFriend has quit IRC
703 2015-10-13T20:38:11 <jtimon> although is specially annoying to not know this when making refactors
704 2015-10-13T20:38:32 <CodeShark> I don't think changing the language is what's most important (or most practical) right now
705 2015-10-13T20:38:41 *** n0n0__ has quit IRC
706 2015-10-13T20:39:15 <CodeShark> the main problem that needs solving is fixing dependency issues and disentangling stuff
707 2015-10-13T20:39:23 <jtimon> but concretely in the context of #6816, if we know we're moving to C++11, std::map is great, if we plan to move to C, we may as well just to waht we would do in C directly instead
708 2015-10-13T20:40:03 <jtimon> agree with it not being a priority, we don't want to do that in the short term due to the risks involved anyway
709 2015-10-13T20:40:37 <jtimon> but knowing where we are going seems important to me
710 2015-10-13T20:40:57 <CodeShark> I have no intention of sacrificing my classes and templates in the near future ;)
711 2015-10-13T20:41:08 <CodeShark> range-based loops and lambdas would be great, too
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714 2015-10-13T20:41:47 <CodeShark> the way I see it, once it's disentangled, reimplementing it in language X is pretty much mechanical stuff
715 2015-10-13T20:41:53 <CodeShark> whatever X may bee
716 2015-10-13T20:41:55 <CodeShark> *be
717 2015-10-13T20:42:12 <CodeShark> but C++ is what we'll probably be most productive in right now
718 2015-10-13T20:42:35 <jtimon> CodeShark I'm not talking about Bitcoin Core, just the consensus code, it is my understanding that we are clearly moving towards C++11 with the non-consensus code, the only thing that it's not clear it's the long term future of libconsensus
719 2015-10-13T20:42:50 <CodeShark> I don't think we need to commit to that yet
720 2015-10-13T20:42:50 <zooko> I'd like to know the answer to this, because of our maintenance of a code-fork for Zcoin.
721 2015-10-13T20:42:56 *** InternetFriend has joined #bitcoin-dev
722 2015-10-13T20:43:10 <zooko> Yeah, I guess we can live without knowing the answer, but maybe if we did know we could make our patches more appealing to you.
723 2015-10-13T20:43:46 <jtimon> CodeShark: the parts of the consensus code that currently depend on C++ features are very small
724 2015-10-13T20:43:55 <CodeShark> the most pressing issue is not the packaging of a C library...but the disentangling of dependencies and isolation of critical paths
725 2015-10-13T20:44:11 <CodeShark> at least that's how I see it
726 2015-10-13T20:45:14 <CodeShark> and a gradual code reorganization is also desirable - but if we do it all at once we're going to make things very hard for others
727 2015-10-13T20:45:33 <jtimon> CodeShark: and I agree with that, but answering this question as soon as possible will not delay the disentangling in any way
728 2015-10-13T20:45:52 <jtimon> uncertainty on this issue makes things harder for ourselves and others
729 2015-10-13T20:46:13 *** Cocodude has left #bitcoin-dev
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731 2015-10-13T20:46:48 <jtimon> cfields already got some nits for removing boost_foreach and I was doing the same for consensus code, for example
732 2015-10-13T20:47:40 <CodeShark> boost_foreach is an extra dependency...but at least it's a stable dependency, so it isn't what I'm most concerned about
733 2015-10-13T20:47:50 <CodeShark> I'd much rather use C++11 range-based loops
734 2015-10-13T20:47:57 <jtimon> in the same sense, it may not make sense to introduce c++ features alike std::map in new consensus features right now if we know we eventually want the consensus code to be C
735 2015-10-13T20:48:00 <CodeShark> but to me this is a minor issue
736 2015-10-13T20:48:18 <CodeShark> to me these issues are primarily stylistic
737 2015-10-13T20:48:24 <CodeShark> not fundamental
738 2015-10-13T20:48:27 <jtimon> because we know consensus code it's hard to change once deployed
739 2015-10-13T20:48:58 <CodeShark> fundamental is, for instance, the entanglement of network code with consensus structures with the wallet
740 2015-10-13T20:49:23 <jtimon> it would be orders of magnitude easier to remove the std::map dependency in #6816 now than it will be once the code is deployed in bitcoin main
741 2015-10-13T20:49:48 <zooko> I'd like to know what the intent/plan/policy is with regard to disentangling network from consensus, and with regard to dependencies, and I'd also like to know what the intent/plan/policy is for C++ vs C.
742 2015-10-13T20:52:13 <jtimon> zooko I'm preparing a document (with pictures, since CodeShark sked for them) with a plan for disentangling the consensus code first, then completing libconsensus' API, and finally having Bitcoin Core use libconsensus' C API directly instead of using a git subtree
743 2015-10-13T20:53:02 *** karelk has joined #bitcoin-dev
744 2015-10-13T20:53:23 <jtimon> but the question of whether libconsensus will eventually be implemented in C++11 or C is orthogonal to this document (although it is a very important question in practice IMO)
745 2015-10-13T20:55:35 <zooko> *nod*
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748 2015-10-13T21:03:13 <CodeShark> 6816 has no external dependencies, jtimon, other than chain.h and the standard libs
749 2015-10-13T21:03:21 <CodeShark> so changing std::map is a very simple change
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751 2015-10-13T21:03:45 <CodeShark> it's just replacing one well-tested container with presumably another well-tested container
752 2015-10-13T21:04:38 <CodeShark> what makes changes to consensus code very risky is the intermixing of abstraction layers and the use of unstable dependencies
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754 2015-10-13T21:06:13 <jtimon> I agree with you, but some people think (not unreasonably) that ANY change to consensus code is risky (no matter how unoffensive it looks)
755 2015-10-13T21:07:44 <CodeShark> I've purposely encapsulated all std::map operations inside the class interface to avoid any such difficulties (though I still expose std::set)
756 2015-10-13T21:08:00 <CodeShark> although std::set is even easier to reimplement from scratch if need be
757 2015-10-13T21:08:18 <jtimon> you are using its iterators as well
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759 2015-10-13T21:08:29 <CodeShark> only inside the class implementation
760 2015-10-13T21:08:39 <jtimon> I mean, don't change anything before we have an answer to this
761 2015-10-13T21:09:06 *** kgk has quit IRC
762 2015-10-13T21:09:56 <jtimon> your PR is just another example, I've been pushing for this discussion since I discovered the plan wasn't C for libconsensus C++11 for everything else (which for some reason I assumed)
763 2015-10-13T21:10:23 <CodeShark> I'd even be happy disentangling main.cpp without moving anything to other source files, to be honest ;)
764 2015-10-13T21:10:52 <jtimon> that's why I say the disentangling is orthogonal to this discussion
765 2015-10-13T21:11:04 <CodeShark> of course, we do need to reorganize the code - but I think the approach of doing it little bits at a time is more practical
766 2015-10-13T21:11:18 <jtimon> this is most relevant when creating new consensus functionality (like you're doing)
767 2015-10-13T21:11:53 <CodeShark> a libconsensus with a C interface and other language bindings would be nice...but is not super critical right now
768 2015-10-13T21:12:12 <CodeShark> at least that's how I see it
769 2015-10-13T21:12:22 <jtimon> the implementation is also orthogonal from the API and bindings
770 2015-10-13T21:12:23 <jamesob> what's the impetus to move away from c++? simplicity? just curious
771 2015-10-13T21:12:23 *** molly has joined #bitcoin-dev
772 2015-10-13T21:12:41 <CodeShark> separating mempool stuff from, say, block tree management and the block index IS critical
773 2015-10-13T21:13:13 <jtimon> jamesob: that's a good question that I may not be the best person to answer it
774 2015-10-13T21:13:47 <CodeShark> jamesob: some people like to have a C interface for greater compatibility with more projects
775 2015-10-13T21:14:01 <jamesob> oh, that makes sense
776 2015-10-13T21:14:06 <jamesob> wider portability
777 2015-10-13T21:14:20 <CodeShark> and some think C code is easier to check for correctness (although I think well-written C++ is far easier for a human to review)
778 2015-10-13T21:14:33 <jtimon> apparently C has more tools for static analysis and it's also simpler (specially when it comes to compilers and behaving exactly in the same way in different target machines)
779 2015-10-13T21:15:06 <jamesob> CodeShark agree on the latter point for most cases
780 2015-10-13T21:15:12 <jtimon> CodeShark: jamesob is asking about C implementation, not C API (currently libconsensus has C++ implementation and C API)
781 2015-10-13T21:15:39 *** moli has quit IRC
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783 2015-10-13T21:16:08 <jamesob> is a "C API" just a header file with signatures that're all compatible with a C compiler?
784 2015-10-13T21:16:14 <CodeShark> yes
785 2015-10-13T21:16:31 <jtimon> jamesob: you may want to ask in #secp256k1 why libsecp256k1 is written in C instead of C++ and you may get better answers
786 2015-10-13T21:16:53 <CodeShark> that's different, though, jtimon, because that's largely about performance
787 2015-10-13T21:16:58 *** copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-dev
788 2015-10-13T21:17:04 <CodeShark> well, it's not completely different
789 2015-10-13T21:17:16 <jamesob> jtimon gotcha. I think the issue of wider potential use sounds compelling.
790 2015-10-13T21:17:18 <CodeShark> but some parts of libsecp256k1 are written in in-line assembly
791 2015-10-13T21:17:34 <jamesob> but human-reviewability is pretty huge too ;)
792 2015-10-13T21:17:45 <jtimon> if it was my decision, it would be written in rpython (compilable to C, see pypy) and C for low level functions (ie for libsecp256k1)
793 2015-10-13T21:17:56 <cfields> CodeShark: fwiw, i started to complain about the chain.h dependency, but ultimately decided not to for now
794 2015-10-13T21:17:57 *** malduron has joined #bitcoin-dev
795 2015-10-13T21:18:15 <cfields> i think it would be easy-ish to avoid, and would make that code consensus-friendly
796 2015-10-13T21:18:28 *** Fusselwurm has quit IRC
797 2015-10-13T21:18:32 <CodeShark> cfields: I wasn't too happy about that either...but I have other plans for the block index
798 2015-10-13T21:19:04 <cfields> CodeShark: good, that's why i decided not to bother. a crippled wrapper would be ugly, but a general solution would be much appreciated
799 2015-10-13T21:19:35 <jtimon> CodeShark: if I understand the issues involved correctly is more about provable correctness than about performance
800 2015-10-13T21:19:45 <CodeShark> in this instance yes
801 2015-10-13T21:19:51 <CodeShark> in the case of libsecp256k1 both are important
802 2015-10-13T21:20:20 <CodeShark> in the case of 6818, we're FAR from the performance bottleneck
803 2015-10-13T21:20:51 <CodeShark> we can afford to be far less efficient than theoretically possible
804 2015-10-13T21:20:56 <jtimon> well, we should probably also consider performance when deciding for libconsensus' future
805 2015-10-13T21:21:16 *** cyphase has joined #bitcoin-dev
806 2015-10-13T21:21:33 <CodeShark> I do consider performance - it's just that there are some places where performance is far more critical
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809 2015-10-13T21:21:47 <CodeShark> i.e. tight loops that run for many iterations
810 2015-10-13T21:21:48 <jtimon> and I would prefer to chose asap for the whole library instead of ad-hoc for each concrete case
811 2015-10-13T21:22:46 <jtimon> if we decide for C++11, that's fine too, but I would like to know asap (and I think it will be productive for review that we know asap too)
812 2015-10-13T21:23:24 <CodeShark> I don't think it's going to happen that way, jtimon - we will not be seeing a wholesale reimplementation of the consensus code in C in the very near term
813 2015-10-13T21:24:59 <CodeShark> or even reimplementation in C++ for that matter ;)
814 2015-10-13T21:25:23 <jtimon> CodeShark: I believe it will only happen (and this applies to both migrating to C++11 or C) in a very slow way while doing other changes (and maybe refactors if we know before libconsensus is complete), which is partly why I think it's important that we know where we are going asap
815 2015-10-13T21:25:35 <zooko> CodeShark: I think there's a difference between asking whether we should ultimately head toward C++ or head toward C, vs. suggesting that we start rewriting things in order to change the implementation now.
816 2015-10-13T21:25:53 <jtimon> I wouldn't call it a reimplementation, though, it would be just a slow migration
817 2015-10-13T21:26:06 <zooko> CodeShark: it kind of sounds like you don't want to commit to an ultimate destination because you don't want that to encourage people to do unnecessary or disruptive work now.
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819 2015-10-13T21:26:59 <CodeShark> that's partly it...but more than that I don't think this is a fundamental architectural issue
820 2015-10-13T21:27:06 <CodeShark> to me it's primarily stylistic
821 2015-10-13T21:27:33 <jtimon> I agreed this is not a fundamental architectural priority
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823 2015-10-13T21:28:16 <zooko> Style is important to me, because I'd like to contribute patches with a better chance of acceptance, and because I'd like to have a better prediction of what sorts of changes will be made upstream that we'll have to accomodate.
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825 2015-10-13T21:28:39 <jtimon> but at some point we will have to decide for one of those two (stay on an old C++ implementation is not an option), what better time than before doing all the disentangling?
826 2015-10-13T21:29:01 <CodeShark> with a layered, modular codebase, different parts could be written in different languages for all I really care ;)
827 2015-10-13T21:29:34 <jamesob> as long as that's not done purely for variety's sake :)
828 2015-10-13T21:29:40 <CodeShark> haha
829 2015-10-13T21:30:01 <CodeShark> I'm a pragmatist - whatever code people will be working on, they should be working on using whatever tools help them be the most productive
830 2015-10-13T21:30:26 <jtimon> CodeShark: with a layered, modular codebase, we still have to decide between C++11 and C for libconsensus eventually
831 2015-10-13T21:30:50 <CodeShark> I say let's do both :p
832 2015-10-13T21:30:55 <CodeShark> lol
833 2015-10-13T21:31:01 <jtimon> being a pragmatist, you should agree with me asap it's the best time to decide on that
834 2015-10-13T21:31:20 <jtimon> even if you consider it just "style"
835 2015-10-13T21:31:42 <CodeShark> nah, I say let that evolve...and let's focus on architecture and be conservative on style
836 2015-10-13T21:32:00 <jtimon> but it's not, the stability of libconsensus will depend on some C++11 or C compilers respectively
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838 2015-10-13T21:32:55 <CodeShark> once we solve the dependency issues, we can always reimplement pieces of it without affecting anyone els
839 2015-10-13T21:32:56 <jtimon> given that libconsensus has a C API anyway, I don't see any advantage in moving to C++11 instead of C
840 2015-10-13T21:33:12 <jamesob> jtimon readability
841 2015-10-13T21:33:17 <jtimon> reimplementation of consensus code is always risky
842 2015-10-13T21:33:36 <jtimon> jamesob I'm a strong readability advocate
843 2015-10-13T21:34:33 <jtimon> and for libconsensus, I don't think C hurts redability (people reading this need to be able to think about what machines will do at the lowest level)
844 2015-10-13T21:34:45 <CodeShark> point is with a proper architecture we can always rigorously test pieces and cover pretty much all cases of interest...and the interface can remain the same
845 2015-10-13T21:35:03 <CodeShark> so nobody else outside that unit is really affected as long as the behavior doesn't change
846 2015-10-13T21:36:01 <CodeShark> we can always write a C wrapper, then reimplement it in C later on...
847 2015-10-13T21:36:10 <jtimon> "we can always rigorously test pieces" I'm afraid that's easier said than done
848 2015-10-13T21:36:30 <jtimon> that's why "provably correct" techniques are so interseting for consensus code
849 2015-10-13T21:36:40 <CodeShark> anyhow, we're bikeshedding :p
850 2015-10-13T21:37:17 <jtimon> CodeShark: I disagree: with a layered, modular codebase, we still have to decide between C++11 and C for libconsensus eventually (stay on an old C++ implementation is not an option)
851 2015-10-13T21:37:31 <jtimon> for Bitcoin Core we've already decided: C++11
852 2015-10-13T21:38:01 <CodeShark> the units I write I would prefer to write in C++11 - but I'm not opposed to also using units written in C (i.e. libsecp256k1)
853 2015-10-13T21:38:56 <jtimon> CodeShark: exactly, libconsensus is in the middle but it has to move either to the libsecp256k1 or to the Bitcoin Core side
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855 2015-10-13T21:39:02 <CodeShark> why?
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858 2015-10-13T21:39:21 <jtimon> because "stay on an old C++ implementation is not an option"
859 2015-10-13T21:40:44 <jtimon> I would probably be happier deciding for C++11 now than deciding for C (my preference) 5 years from now
860 2015-10-13T21:41:43 *** nsh has joined #bitcoin-dev
861 2015-10-13T21:42:20 <CodeShark> I'm not even entirely convinced that libconsensus is where we want to end up - why shouldn't consensus be, say, a runtime service?
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863 2015-10-13T21:42:48 <CodeShark> but I don't think we need to decide that now
864 2015-10-13T21:42:49 <jtimon> (by then I bet C++ will have more "provable correctness" tools)
865 2015-10-13T21:43:55 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
866 2015-10-13T21:45:08 <CodeShark> in any case, if what we're after is provability perhaps we should be looking into Coq or other interactive theorem provers
867 2015-10-13T21:45:27 <jtimon> we "don't have to decide" anything "now", but when making changes to the codebase that affect almost everyone working with the same code, it really helps to know as much as possible about the future
868 2015-10-13T21:45:50 <CodeShark> C and C++ are both rather unsafe languages in many respects
869 2015-10-13T21:46:24 <CodeShark> C++ lets you at least encapsulate all the low-level pointer arithmetic stuff, though
870 2015-10-13T21:46:28 <jtimon> CodeShark: that actually may be interesting for "script2.0", but probably belongs more to #wizards
871 2015-10-13T21:46:45 <jamesob> yeah, I'd argue C++ is harder to be unsafe with
872 2015-10-13T21:47:16 <gavinandresen> who is the âcustomerâ for libconsensus? You should ask them, whoever they are, if theyâd prefer C or C++.
873 2015-10-13T21:47:32 <jtimon> disclaimer I usually prefer high level languages for specifications, like python (or rpython)
874 2015-10-13T21:48:03 <jtimon> gavinandresen: the first "customer" of libconsensus is Bitcoin Core itself
875 2015-10-13T21:48:18 <CodeShark> C and C++ are both fairly portable, integrate tightly with OSes, and can provide language bindings to pretty much any VHLL
876 2015-10-13T21:48:32 <jtimon> Bitcoin Core can evolve faster once the consensus code is encapsulated
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878 2015-10-13T21:48:50 <jtimon> which is the most riskier part to modify
879 2015-10-13T21:49:30 <gavinandresen> mmmmâ¦. my engineering-manager spidey sense is tingling. âJust give us six months to rip things apart and weâll save WEEKS of work in the future!â
880 2015-10-13T21:49:31 <CodeShark> gavinandresen: I think *we're* the immediate customer for libconsensus :)
881 2015-10-13T21:49:45 <CodeShark> this is to make our jobs easier, first and foremost
882 2015-10-13T21:49:59 <gavinandresen> Ok, as a potential customer of libconsensus Iâd vote for C++, then.
883 2015-10-13T21:50:01 <jamesob> "easier" sounds like C++
884 2015-10-13T21:50:08 <zooko> If "bikeshedding" means this isn't an important question, I disagree.
885 2015-10-13T21:50:23 <jtimon> gavinandresen: alternative implementations, say libbitcoin or bitcoinj would also be great users for libconsensus, since they would remove the "consensus bugs" risks by running exaclty the same consensus code
886 2015-10-13T21:50:39 <gavinandresen> mmm. I donât think libbitcoin or bitcoinj are interested, though.
887 2015-10-13T21:51:13 <zooko> I'm a "customer" of libconsensus.
888 2015-10-13T21:51:26 <gavinandresen> zooko: cool, what do you want?
889 2015-10-13T21:51:27 <zooko> Although actually I'd have to ask my engineering team for their preferences on that question, if you wanted to know.
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891 2015-10-13T21:52:30 <zooko> My own preference is C instead of C++, but I would defer to my chief engineer or a consensus of my other engineers.
892 2015-10-13T21:52:52 <CodeShark> zooko: would you be ok with a C API even if the internals are written in C++?
893 2015-10-13T21:52:53 <zooko> But most of all my preference is, as jtimon is saying, that it helps to know what the plan/policy/future is.
894 2015-10-13T21:53:04 <gavinandresen> zooko: a little document from your engineering team with âthis is the API we wish we hadâ would be nifty.
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896 2015-10-13T21:53:34 <zooko> CodeShark, gavinandresen: I was talking about being a "customer" in the sense of maintaining patches against the implementation, contributing patches, doing security audits of the implementation, etc., not in terms of API.
897 2015-10-13T21:53:40 <gavinandresen> There was a /r/programming article on âREADME-driven developmentâ that I thought was good, and reflects how I tend to design APIsâ figure out the code I want to write, then make the API match that.
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899 2015-10-13T21:53:57 <zooko> Yeah, I like that approach for APIs.
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901 2015-10-13T21:54:37 <jtimon> gavinandresen: I think they should be interested in not having unnecessary consensus bugs, sometimes people say "the implementation is the specification" for consensus code, but Bitcoin Core has many more things than consensus code, so it is also a political issue to separate them
902 2015-10-13T21:54:40 <gavinandresen> Thereâs a lot of bad API design from premature optimization or over-generalization....
903 2015-10-13T21:55:00 <zooko> Yeah.
904 2015-10-13T21:55:19 <gavinandresen> jtimon: âmehâ â weâve got a thriving wallet ecosystem, a whole separate mining software stack....
905 2015-10-13T21:55:55 <gavinandresen> ⦠and multiple implementations of the consensus code that keep consensus pretty well.
906 2015-10-13T21:56:55 <jtimon> gavinandresen: wouldn't a library that just (and only) checks the consensus rules (and nothing else Bitcoin Core does) help with such a new stack trend?
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909 2015-10-13T21:58:21 <gavinandresen> jtimon: maybe⦠but just using bitcoind as an âedge routerâ works pretty well.
910 2015-10-13T21:58:52 <gavinandresen> The only reason to have a separate library is if performance is an issue, but I donât see applications where that is a problem (weâre not talking millions of transactions per second)
911 2015-10-13T21:58:59 <jtimon> many people run bitcoin core in the edges of their internal network precisely because their own libraries aren't walways able to strictly follow consensus rules, running libconsensus behind their own ruby or java libraries could remove that need and increase the diversity at the network level
912 2015-10-13T21:59:08 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, at the very least the library work jtimon has been doing makes it significantly easier to fuzz core
913 2015-10-13T21:59:16 <phantomcircuit> it would all be worth it for that alone
914 2015-10-13T21:59:36 <gavinandresen> better testing is always a good thing
915 2015-10-13T22:00:24 <gavinandresen> ⦠so focusing on unit tests for all the stuff that isnât easily unit-testable would be excellent.
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917 2015-10-13T22:01:21 <gavinandresen> I agree that thorough tests for the consensus code would DEFINITELY accelerate development.
918 2015-10-13T22:01:37 <jtimon> well, having a single folder for all the consensus code may not help with testing directly, but it would greatly help with review and with patches proposed (less people would unarvertidly make their patches consensus-risky)
919 2015-10-13T22:02:06 <gavinandresen> okey dokey
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926 2015-10-13T22:08:15 <nwilcox> Hi. I missed a bit of the conversation about implementation language for consensus critical code.
927 2015-10-13T22:08:32 <nwilcox> Any outcome?
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929 2015-10-13T22:08:51 <CodeShark> yes, we decided to use brainf!$@
930 2015-10-13T22:09:37 <jamesob> brainf!$@.js
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933 2015-10-13T22:11:13 <nwilcox> You've got to be kidding. jsfuck is much more widely supported.
934 2015-10-13T22:11:46 <zooko> lol
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936 2015-10-13T22:13:03 <nwilcox> I hope people are leaning towards C over C++(11).
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952 2015-10-13T22:32:18 <jcorgan> make it LLVM intermediate representation
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974 2015-10-13T23:21:53 <jtimon> good to hear more voices in favor of C over C++11 (again, just for the consensus code)
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977 2015-10-13T23:23:01 <jtimon> if I'm interpreting jcorgan correctly
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998 2015-10-13T23:58:08 <Luke-Jr> +1 for carefully-written C. probably the ideal would be a custom language specifically for consensus systems, though.
999 2015-10-13T23:58:46 <Luke-Jr> warren: I wonder if in addition to -dev and -discuss MLs, if a -support ML would be good to have.
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