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168 2015-10-15T04:11:31 <shesek> does anyone know of an API that takes a date and returns the btc/usd exchange rate (24h average) at the time?
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171 2015-10-15T04:16:29 <shesek> n/m, found one: http://api.coindesk.com/v1/bpi/historical/close.json?start=2015-01-01&end=2015-01-01
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181 2015-10-15T04:36:19 <equil_> i just have to put the address in from bitcoin-cli -testnet getaccountaddress "" to a faucet to get some coins right? how long do they take to come through
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184 2015-10-15T04:53:50 <midnightmagic> equil_: This is not the place for such questions.
185 2015-10-15T04:54:19 <equil_> is this not related to the bitcoin test network
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187 2015-10-15T04:55:35 <equil_> midnightmagic: where should I ask instead?
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189 2015-10-15T04:58:59 <midnightmagic> equil_: Nowhere in any channels that begin with #bitcoin. :)
190 2015-10-15T04:59:33 <equil_> I don't get it
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202 2015-10-15T05:26:56 <moli> equil_: i guess you can google for the testnet faucets, i've seen a few, here's one: https://accounts.blockcypher.com/testnet-faucet
203 2015-10-15T05:27:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o midnightmagic
204 2015-10-15T05:27:34 <equil_> moli: thanks, I had already used one but I wasn't recieving any coins and couldn't figure out whether or not it was an issue on my end or something else
205 2015-10-15T05:29:03 <midnightmagic> Please no faucet discussion in here. They are, often, scams or fraudulent in other ways.
206 2015-10-15T05:29:16 <equil_> it is a faucet for the test network
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210 2015-10-15T05:34:41 <equil_> the coins are worthless and used in development
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212 2015-10-15T05:36:12 <moli> right, test coins have no value, nobody would buy them
213 2015-10-15T05:36:32 <equil_> or scam them
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216 2015-10-15T05:38:23 <equil_> and actually referenced on bitcoin.org https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-examples#testnet
217 2015-10-15T05:39:19 <midnightmagic> I did ask nicely.
218 2015-10-15T05:39:40 <midnightmagic> That URL above is *not* referenced in bitcoin.org at the URL you posted.
219 2015-10-15T05:39:52 <midnightmagic> *he posted.
220 2015-10-15T05:40:11 <equil_> perhaps not, but the usage of faucets is
221 2015-10-15T05:40:19 <equil_> which I thought was the whole issue to begin with
222 2015-10-15T05:40:26 <equil_> not the specific faucet, but any faucet
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224 2015-10-15T05:45:12 <equil_> it's OK to admit you don't understand
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318 2015-10-15T09:06:42 <equil_> does anyone have any testnet coins they could send me please?
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324 2015-10-15T09:23:08 <Luke-Jr> equil_: address?
325 2015-10-15T09:23:26 <equil_> Luke-Jr: I got one sent to me, thanks
326 2015-10-15T09:23:31 <equil_> Luke-Jr: also it was my RAM
327 2015-10-15T09:23:44 <Luke-Jr> bad RAM?
328 2015-10-15T09:23:56 <equil_> it's been funny for a while
329 2015-10-15T09:24:20 <equil_> http://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Vengeance-Desktop-Memory-CML8GX3M2A1600C9/dp/B00569K7LM
330 2015-10-15T09:24:27 <equil_> but gets hardware errors running at 1600
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332 2015-10-15T09:25:46 <Luke-Jr> ah, we're in the wrong channel for this topic XD
333 2015-10-15T09:26:38 <equil_> my bad
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349 2015-10-15T10:56:11 <warren> I've been crazy busy on something else, and I've seen chat or list posts of 2-3 different moderation plans now
350 2015-10-15T10:56:26 * warren needs to sleep
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355 2015-10-15T11:06:12 <wumpus> I've been crazy busy this week too, really need some rest now that 0.11.1 is out of the door
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444 2015-10-15T14:17:42 <jonasschnelli> is OP_CODESEPARATOR standard?
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479 2015-10-15T14:50:42 <bsm1175321> jonasschnelli: in terms of IsStandard(), OP_CODESEPARATOR is not standard.
480 2015-10-15T14:50:51 <bsm1175321> According to this, it's also useless: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34013/what-is-op-codeseparator-used-for
481 2015-10-15T14:51:02 <jonasschnelli> bsm1175321: Thanks!
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483 2015-10-15T14:53:12 <bsm1175321> I like the idea behind it though...A use case came up for it for me yesterday...
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548 2015-10-15T16:40:16 <jtimon> in freimarkets we used it as op_delegation_separator
549 2015-10-15T16:40:27 <jtimon> maybe #wizards
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551 2015-10-15T16:46:28 <maaku> jtimon: different semantics though
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559 2015-10-15T16:54:05 <maaku> morcos: objections to moving the SEQUENCE_LOCKTIME_SECONDS_FLAG to a different bit position, 1 << 22?
560 2015-10-15T16:54:50 <morcos> maaku: one sec
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562 2015-10-15T16:56:25 <maaku> that is the highest it can go without making seconds-denominated relative lock-time a 4-byte push
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567 2015-10-15T16:57:29 <morcos> ok i was trying to figure out the logic here... hadn't looked through the new code yet. so you made the secuence number encoded in the the low order 2 bytes.
568 2015-10-15T16:58:11 <maaku> correct, 16 bits for the relative time-lock, one bit for the unit flag (bit #17)
569 2015-10-15T16:58:38 <maaku> i'm suggesting making that bit #23 instead, since that's the highest it can go without moving to 4-byte pushes
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574 2015-10-15T17:01:03 <maaku> it divides the unused bit portion in a sortof ugly way, but it allows up to 22 bits of relative lock time to be used on a sidechain with very clean compatability
575 2015-10-15T17:02:19 <morcos> yeah i guess i'm not understanding the down side of pushing 4 bytes?
576 2015-10-15T17:02:33 <maaku> e.g. on a Alpha or Liquid like federated sidechain you could have 8s blocks, 8s granularity and still support a year of relative lock-time, and existing code would still work
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578 2015-10-15T17:02:58 <maaku> morcos: it saves a byte in transaction size
579 2015-10-15T17:03:09 <maaku> when using relative lock-time with CSV
580 2015-10-15T17:03:48 <morcos> but you'd only need to push 4 bytes if you ended up deciding to soft fork below 8 sec resolution right
581 2015-10-15T17:04:09 <maaku> no, because you need to set SEQUENCE_LOCKTIME_SECONDS_FLAG
582 2015-10-15T17:04:26 <morcos> oh, i see
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584 2015-10-15T17:05:18 <maaku> 3 bytes = 24 bits, but pushes are signed so 23 bits, that leaves 1 bit for the flag, 22 bits for relative lock-time (only low 16bits enforced now)
585 2015-10-15T17:06:28 <morcos> and you think you should encode the sequence in bits 1-16 instead of 7-22?
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587 2015-10-15T17:07:21 <morcos> but no i dont' think i have an objection
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589 2015-10-15T17:07:36 <maaku> morcos: yes, because then height-based lock times are 1- or 2-byte pushes
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591 2015-10-15T17:08:07 <maaku> and the code generation is easy. for height based just push the desired age
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593 2015-10-15T17:08:08 <morcos> ah, it just works because the number is less than 1<<22
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595 2015-10-15T17:08:16 <maaku> right
596 2015-10-15T17:08:37 <maaku> for seconds, the push is 0x40 + <two-byte lock-time>
597 2015-10-15T17:09:17 <morcos> so it'll get a bit wonky looking code to actually have finer granularity then huh
598 2015-10-15T17:09:25 <maaku> so no bit shifting needed in implementations... unless we decide to make use of bits 17..22
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601 2015-10-15T17:10:01 <maaku> yeah, but I seriously don't think we'll ever have higher granularity on bitcoin blockchain
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603 2015-10-15T17:10:19 <maaku> on the other hand, a protocol written for bitcoin would work out of the box but faster on a faster network, e.g. Liquid
604 2015-10-15T17:10:25 <morcos> yeah i'm wondering what is more likely , we use 17..22 for finer granularity or for some different meaning, and if its a different meaning, then maybe nicer to leave them to the left of the SECONDS_FLAG
605 2015-10-15T17:10:30 <morcos> ah
606 2015-10-15T17:11:13 <morcos> so how ugly is it if you leave it at 17 to have finer granularity
607 2015-10-15T17:11:13 <maaku> (because that network if it has 2x faster blocks, redefines its own granularity to be 256s instead of 512s)
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609 2015-10-15T17:11:37 <maaku> morcos: it gets ugly if you want to keep 1 year of maximum lock time
610 2015-10-15T17:11:45 <maaku> because the flag bit is in the way
611 2015-10-15T17:12:16 <morcos> so it depends on if you're starting with the finer granularity, then sure i agree
612 2015-10-15T17:12:29 <morcos> but i think if you're soft forking in finer granularity, then its going to be ugly either way right?
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614 2015-10-15T17:13:13 <morcos> bc the bits of your sequence number will be out of order if you soft fork down to 8s later, since you have to continue using 1-16 for the high order bits
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617 2015-10-15T17:17:39 <morcos> i don't have a strong opinion, it if was up to me bit 17 woudl be SECONDS_FLAG and bits 32-18 = 00.00 would indicate BIP 68. then evolving to finer granularity of say 8 seconds would be a soft fork where bits 32-24 = 0 and bits 23-18 represent the low order bits, and 16-1 the high order bits
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619 2015-10-15T17:17:46 <morcos> but at this point its all nitpicking
620 2015-10-15T17:18:00 <morcos> i think as long as you're saving the bits, we can hack in what we need later, so no objections
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629 2015-10-15T17:25:46 <maaku> morcos: interesting question -- do we want to bias in favor of height-based or time-based relative lock-time?
630 2015-10-15T17:26:22 <maaku> or do we remove bias by putting the flag in bit 0
631 2015-10-15T17:26:44 <morcos> the counting method we've been using doesn' thave a bit 0. :)
632 2015-10-15T17:26:54 <maaku> er, yeah bit 1
633 2015-10-15T17:27:28 <morcos> i think there are 2 questions:
634 2015-10-15T17:28:36 <morcos> 1) does whatever semantics you pick preclude things that other semantics wouldn't. In this case, I think you're precluding haveing more than 31 bits available for non BIP 68 semantics, but I htink we all agree thats ok. And as far as I can tell, nothing else is precluded, some things are just more hacky
635 2015-10-15T17:29:18 <maaku> correct
636 2015-10-15T17:30:18 <morcos> 2) which semantics allow for nicer code and i agree, things like smaller txs are a big win. That questions should be asked primarily with regards to the 512 second granuarlity but should also be considered for whatever we expect the next use of the 14 bits to be
637 2015-10-15T17:30:59 <morcos> i don't have a good feel for whether that is more likely to be finer granularity or some different soft fork.
638 2015-10-15T17:31:09 <morcos> i'm not sure there is a RIGHT answer
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640 2015-10-15T17:32:45 <maaku> my own view: it's interesting to note that higher granularity can be soft-forked in, but I don't think this will ever happen on bitcoin block chain. I DO think that we should optimize for code reuse on sidechains and/or alts that have lower interblock times or different consensus models
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643 2015-10-15T17:33:51 <maaku> (And I have a conflict of interest here, although I assert this would be my view anyway and can probably find citations of me arguing for code reuse sensitivity pre-blockstream)
644 2015-10-15T17:33:53 <morcos> so one thing to consider there is what do those alt chains do about the block height
645 2015-10-15T17:34:50 <morcos> oh is that why you asked that above? b/c now in order to still have a year of range, they need more high order bits.
646 2015-10-15T17:34:57 <maaku> meaning? no system I have seen has a concept of fractional block height, although there are theoretical stuff discussed on wizards
647 2015-10-15T17:35:03 <maaku> morcos: right
648 2015-10-15T17:35:31 <morcos> so they can start with that i suppose, but they can't soft fork it in right?
649 2015-10-15T17:36:50 <maaku> Best explained by example. Alpha has approximately 1min blocks. Let's round up to 64 sec.
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651 2015-10-15T17:37:55 <maaku> What an Alpha-like chain can do is add 3 high order bits so bits 1..19 encode relative lock time.
652 2015-10-15T17:38:17 <maaku> And make the seconds granularity 64s instead of 512s
653 2015-10-15T17:39:11 <maaku> Now any protocol written for Bitcoin would just work out of the box on this hypothetical system, but with relative lock-time timeouts 1/8 as long
654 2015-10-15T17:39:54 <maaku> And that is safe as long as you remember to poll spend status 8x as frequently
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660 2015-10-15T17:47:14 <Iriez> is 0.11.1 updated on github? I get this: Remote branch 0.11.1 not found in upstream origin
661 2015-10-15T17:47:21 <Iriez> when trying to upgrade
662 2015-10-15T17:49:08 <morcos> maaku: i don't think i have a strong opinion, i haven't thought enough about how this is used in practice. so if you're hoping for my independent opinion, then best i can say is i can't make an argument that it would be worse.
663 2015-10-15T17:49:43 <maaku> ok thanks
664 2015-10-15T17:49:45 <morcos> sdaftuar was actually just convincing me that my preferred solution above is not obviously a good idea
665 2015-10-15T17:50:05 <maaku> yeah you have to mask out those bits, not mandate they are zoro
666 2015-10-15T17:50:12 <maaku> not sure if that is what sdaftuar is saying
667 2015-10-15T17:50:26 <morcos> so now i'd go so far as to say i have no idea what i'd pick if it was up to me, so i'd go with what you think is best and lets see if anything comes up in review
668 2015-10-15T17:50:32 <morcos> thanks for bringing it up though
669 2015-10-15T17:51:21 <morcos> no i was particularly meaning to set them all to 0. so that if you then wanted another soft fork within BIP 68. what you're actually doing is applying BIP 68 and NewSoftFork at the same time to some of the remaining bit space
670 2015-10-15T17:51:47 <morcos> but thats maybe a little less secure in that there are now 2 consensus rules that non updated code would not be evaluating
671 2015-10-15T17:52:09 <maaku> morcos: that would make those bits inaccessible to CSV, no?
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673 2015-10-15T17:52:52 <maaku> CSV would have to fail if those bits are set, which means you could no longer soft-fork extend CSV; you'd have to use a new opcode
674 2015-10-15T17:53:02 <morcos> you mean if the additional soft fork was finer granularity... hmmm
675 2015-10-15T17:53:14 <morcos> yes i hadn't thought about that
676 2015-10-15T17:53:23 <morcos> oh yeah for anything
677 2015-10-15T17:55:38 <morcos> so i'm not sure i thought through fully how to soft fork in finer granularity with CSV in your proposal
678 2015-10-15T17:55:41 <morcos> but it can be done?
679 2015-10-15T17:56:41 <maaku> yes because in current implementation of #6312 bits without assigned meaning are simply masked out
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682 2015-10-15T17:57:50 <maaku> so CSV and LockTime's view of nSequence is : 0xxxxxxxxxxxxxxULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
683 2015-10-15T17:58:08 <morcos> so CSV is also changed to mask out bits in the pushed number?
684 2015-10-15T17:58:22 <maaku> bit 32 must be 0, bit 17 determines units, bits 1..16 provide lock-time, bits 18..31 can take any value
685 2015-10-15T17:58:26 <maaku> yes
686 2015-10-15T17:58:49 <maaku> although I haven't pushed that because I have to rewrite all the unit tests (a task for today)
687 2015-10-15T17:59:28 <morcos> ok that makes sense
688 2015-10-15T18:00:16 <morcos> why don't you send an email to the ML proposing to move units bit to 23 and see if anybody has any objection
689 2015-10-15T18:00:21 <maaku> ok
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693 2015-10-15T18:05:24 <GreenIsMyPepper> the idea being we've passed those bits already in time, right?
694 2015-10-15T18:06:13 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: you're the one I want to talk to. do you see height-based or time-based timeouts being used more frequently in lightning (or other applications)?
695 2015-10-15T18:06:17 <btcdrak> maaku: or we could just discuss the bits in the IRC meeting today
696 2015-10-15T18:06:29 <GreenIsMyPepper> i don't see time based timeouts used at all
697 2015-10-15T18:06:46 <GreenIsMyPepper> relative i mean
698 2015-10-15T18:06:47 <btcdrak> morcos: in general are you more happy to ACK BIP68?
699 2015-10-15T18:07:20 <GreenIsMyPepper> for absolute nLockTime/CLTV, yes I see the need for timestamps, and the block averaging timestamp thing makes a LOT of sense
700 2015-10-15T18:07:31 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: interesting. what about permissioned sidechains where interblock times may not be as reliable (e.g. blocks not mined unless transactions are available)?
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702 2015-10-15T18:07:40 <GreenIsMyPepper> err the doesn't go backwards block time thing
703 2015-10-15T18:07:52 <GreenIsMyPepper> oh, you mean when you want to sync multiple chains?
704 2015-10-15T18:07:57 <GreenIsMyPepper> on a relative basis?
705 2015-10-15T18:08:25 <GreenIsMyPepper> ok, maybe for liquid, which is why i've never disputed the need to do so, as in I think there might be some kind of theoretical need for it
706 2015-10-15T18:08:31 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: maybe that's interesting, but no I just meant e.g. RCLTV on Alpha
707 2015-10-15T18:08:32 <GreenIsMyPepper> but for LN in particular, the timeouts for channels are asynchronous
708 2015-10-15T18:09:01 <maaku> we have a mode that BlueMatt turned on for his functionary node where he doesn't generate blocks if there aren't transactions to put in it
709 2015-10-15T18:10:01 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: ok but on the bitcoin block chain you definately prefer height over time? interesting
710 2015-10-15T18:10:59 <GreenIsMyPepper> so if you timeout on one chain at a particular time and timeout on another chain at another time it's no problem -- from a finance perspective, I suspect there is no real need for inter-chain *relative* locking if you presume the financial system is scriptable (you *absolutely* need timestamps for hard non-relative times though), but that may be too aggressive to say :P
711 2015-10-15T18:11:07 <maaku> I would have thought the opposite, because e.g. a client may need to poll periodically and the time-based locktime (with BIP 113) gives a calculable polling frequency
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713 2015-10-15T18:12:24 <GreenIsMyPepper> i think time-based locks are very messy and am okay with that kind of breakage because I assume a certain level of outsourcability, do you think that perspective is too naive?
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716 2015-10-15T18:13:51 <maaku> I've been deep in the weeds and not thinking about it to be honest.
717 2015-10-15T18:13:56 <GreenIsMyPepper> i'm preferring block-based to encourage future timestop things (irrespective of whether you think that particular idea is a good way to solve particular problems)
718 2015-10-15T18:14:15 <morcos> btcdrak: ha, no, its not even updated yet, for current changes let alone new proposals, but yes, concept ACK
719 2015-10-15T18:14:35 <GreenIsMyPepper> maaku: oh to be precise, i'm not AGAINST timestamps in nSequence
720 2015-10-15T18:15:00 <GreenIsMyPepper> i think it's better to include it rather than not because hard timelocks have it too, and it's better to be similar in functionality
721 2015-10-15T18:15:01 <morcos> GreenIsMyPepper: how important is solving the timestop problem, that seems difficult to me
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723 2015-10-15T18:15:25 <maaku> The question comes up because the location and meaning of the units flag determines whether a CSV push must be 3 bytes vs possibly 1-byte or 2-byte
724 2015-10-15T18:16:10 <maaku> morcos: #6312 is updated, except perhaps the switch from bit #17 -> bit #23
725 2015-10-15T18:16:27 <GreenIsMyPepper> morcos: not sure. i think it's OK with micropayments and a moderately small unused reserve in every channel. if people don't use reserves or the predominant uses on a dollar value basis is inter-exchange arbitrage, the importance goes up.
726 2015-10-15T18:16:28 <morcos> maaku: yes, but he asked about BIP 68.
727 2015-10-15T18:16:39 <maaku> morcos: he meant the PR
728 2015-10-15T18:16:42 <btcdrak> morcos: I need a slap, i meant the PR.
729 2015-10-15T18:17:11 <morcos> in that case i haven't rereviewed it. i'll wait until we decide on bit 17/23
730 2015-10-15T18:17:39 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: with current #6312, a height-based CSV <127 fits in 1 byte, otherwise usually 2 bytes. time-based CSV is always a 3-byte push
731 2015-10-15T18:17:53 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: that can be reversed (so time-based is shorter), hence my question
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733 2015-10-15T18:18:36 <btcdrak> maaku: you want the maximum flexibility for use cases since you cannot predict all future use/need.
734 2015-10-15T18:18:39 <maaku> OR the flag bit could be put in bit 0, and then it's symmetrical (both can fit in 1- or 2-bytes) but 1-byte push is limited to 63 (blocks, or *512seconds)
735 2015-10-15T18:18:48 <GreenIsMyPepper> i will take a look and comment on that pull req now
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740 2015-10-15T18:20:35 <GreenIsMyPepper> so clarification while i was thinking about nVersion. it's not used because it's hard to push that data into the script validation, correct?
741 2015-10-15T18:20:42 <GreenIsMyPepper> and would become messy?
742 2015-10-15T18:21:22 <nwilcox> Why doesn't doc/build-unix.md mention ./depends at all?
743 2015-10-15T18:21:47 <nwilcox> -or to put my question more clearly: why isn't building/linking against ./depends not the default instruction?
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745 2015-10-15T18:22:44 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: can you clarify your question? I'm not understanding
746 2015-10-15T18:23:30 <GreenIsMyPepper> those bit flags aren't in nVersion, is it because pushing that data into the script validation parts is messy? as in OP_CSV wouldn't know how to behave?
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748 2015-10-15T18:24:08 <GreenIsMyPepper> i realized that might be the case when reviewing it but just want to double check on why :P
749 2015-10-15T18:24:28 <maaku> ... why would those flags be in nVersion
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751 2015-10-15T18:25:17 <maaku> aside from burning an nVersion bit, that would require all inputs to have the same units (seconds vs blocks) which is actually a significant loss
752 2015-10-15T18:25:28 <GreenIsMyPepper> you could put the the bits anywhere theoretically, right?
753 2015-10-15T18:25:50 <maaku> GreenIsMyPepper: BIP 68 is per-input. There's only one nVersion field
754 2015-10-15T18:25:58 <GreenIsMyPepper> i see, the purpose is to keep it per-input
755 2015-10-15T18:26:13 <GreenIsMyPepper> alright
756 2015-10-15T18:26:35 <GreenIsMyPepper> that is a very important property, you're right.
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773 2015-10-15T18:45:55 <btcdrak> maaku: can you elaborate in the ML email what the change allows for in terms of blocktimes and maximum locktime.
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775 2015-10-15T18:46:30 <maaku> btcdrak: neither are affected
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777 2015-10-15T18:47:02 <btcdrak> maaku: so it's about 1 yr RCLTV as before
778 2015-10-15T18:47:24 <maaku> btcdrak: nothing changes, it's just where the bits are in the field
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782 2015-10-15T18:49:54 <btcdrak> maaku: then I'm not sure what the disadvantage could be
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789 2015-10-15T19:00:38 <sipa> meeting time?
790 2015-10-15T19:00:38 <sdaftuar> meeting starting now?
791 2015-10-15T19:00:44 <wumpus> yes
792 2015-10-15T19:00:47 <BlueMatt> morning all
793 2015-10-15T19:00:50 <jonasschnelli> hi
794 2015-10-15T19:00:53 <wumpus> I can't be there all the time though; anyone wants to chair today?
795 2015-10-15T19:00:53 <btcdrak> wumpus: will you be controlling meetbot?
796 2015-10-15T19:01:00 <wumpus> #startmeeting
797 2015-10-15T19:01:00 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 15 19:01:00 2015 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
798 2015-10-15T19:01:00 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
799 2015-10-15T19:01:09 <sipa> evening all
800 2015-10-15T19:01:15 <btcdrak> evening all
801 2015-10-15T19:01:23 <GreenIsMyPepper> morning all
802 2015-10-15T19:01:27 <GreenIsMyPepper> afternoon
803 2015-10-15T19:01:27 <sipa> do we have topics?
804 2015-10-15T19:02:02 <wumpus> mempool limiting, as usual, I suppose
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807 2015-10-15T19:02:10 <BlueMatt> not much to discuss there
808 2015-10-15T19:02:10 *** CodeShark has quit IRC
809 2015-10-15T19:02:14 <BlueMatt> but, sure....
810 2015-10-15T19:02:14 <wumpus> ok
811 2015-10-15T19:02:19 <sipa> i'm benchmarking BlueMatt's current patch
812 2015-10-15T19:02:22 <sdaftuar> i'd like to get direction for the sendheaders BIP so i can move forward with the related pull
813 2015-10-15T19:02:34 <wumpus> #topic mempool limiting
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815 2015-10-15T19:02:38 <btcdrak> maaku posted a question to the list about BIP68 which could be discussed, it's easy too
816 2015-10-15T19:02:39 <BlueMatt> #6722 is looking for review
817 2015-10-15T19:02:52 <wumpus> #action review #6722
818 2015-10-15T19:02:53 <morcos> BlueMatt: s/review/merge/ :)
819 2015-10-15T19:02:55 <sdaftuar> i'm close to ACKing :) running some final tests
820 2015-10-15T19:02:56 <BlueMatt> those who had avoided it previously because it was still churning should go ahead and do that
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823 2015-10-15T19:03:07 <sipa> i'm seeing transactions that take 200ms to accept into the mempool
824 2015-10-15T19:03:19 <sipa> but it seems those may just be very large transactions
825 2015-10-15T19:03:20 <BlueMatt> sipa: oh? I didnt see anything that bad when i was looking? :(
826 2015-10-15T19:03:20 <morcos> whoa
827 2015-10-15T19:03:37 <sipa> BlueMatt: i don't think it's because of your pull - i never benchmarked mempool acceptance before
828 2015-10-15T19:03:42 <sipa> but i'd like to know for sure
829 2015-10-15T19:03:46 <sdaftuar> hm. could it be the package code?
830 2015-10-15T19:03:47 <morcos> ok to be honest i never benchmarked 6722, but nothing in it should be slower than other things i benchmarked
831 2015-10-15T19:03:51 <btcdrak> sipa: dont see how it could be related to that pull
832 2015-10-15T19:03:57 <morcos> 2ms is appropriate amount of time to be accepted to mempool
833 2015-10-15T19:04:09 <BlueMatt> dunno, when i looked at it it was 100% sig checking
834 2015-10-15T19:04:12 <BlueMatt> well, 95
835 2015-10-15T19:04:48 <morcos> ok, i can do some performance testing of it.., sipa, you saw like a few outliers taking that long or what? either way thats bad
836 2015-10-15T19:04:58 <gmaxwell> No gdoc today?
837 2015-10-15T19:05:05 <sipa> the average is around 4ms, but very strong outliers
838 2015-10-15T19:05:09 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: just meetbot
839 2015-10-15T19:05:23 <sipa> this is with libsecp validation merged
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841 2015-10-15T19:05:41 <morcos> yeah me too
842 2015-10-15T19:05:49 <sipa> i'll benchmark more and comment on the pr
843 2015-10-15T19:05:57 <CodeShark> is there a list of the topics for discussion?
844 2015-10-15T19:06:15 <btcdrak> CodeShark: ad hoc today
845 2015-10-15T19:07:15 <btcdrak> my only comment/nit on 6722 was I wasnt sure why we should revert the minrelay in that particular PR.
846 2015-10-15T19:07:41 <jonasschnelli> If there are non *important* topics i would be interested to brainstorm additional services on the p2p network protected over ECDH. But only if it makes sense to discuss it off-mailing-list
847 2015-10-15T19:07:43 <sipa> i understand that it reverts it, because the raising of it was a temporary measure
848 2015-10-15T19:07:50 <BlueMatt> btcdrak: well 5000 no longer makes sense, and to avoid having a huge discussion on the proper value, I just picked the previous one
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851 2015-10-15T19:08:21 <sipa> but i do think that the relayfee which influences dust should be floating as well, or the dust limit becomes ineffective
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854 2015-10-15T19:09:01 <wumpus> CodeShark: if you have any suggestions, go ahead
855 2015-10-15T19:10:00 <CodeShark> regarding mempool limiting? or regarding topics?
856 2015-10-15T19:10:04 <btcdrak> Can we discuss this today: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011555.html (or hear any objections)
857 2015-10-15T19:10:09 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: could we talk about it after the meeting? I'd like to understand what you're thinking.
858 2015-10-15T19:10:12 <wumpus> #topic sdaftuar's sendheaders BIP
859 2015-10-15T19:10:50 <sdaftuar> so i don't feel strongly about how to move forward. theuni proposed extending the version message; seems like that's not a popular idea though
860 2015-10-15T19:11:10 <sdaftuar> i think the "flags" message idea that gmaxwell suggested has the same synchronization problem as anything else
861 2015-10-15T19:11:11 <wumpus> I'd prefere not extending the version message
862 2015-10-15T19:11:11 <sipa> i am pretty strongly opposed to overloading the version message further
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864 2015-10-15T19:11:21 <gmaxwell> I do not think extending the version message is good.
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867 2015-10-15T19:11:25 <btcdrak> ditto
868 2015-10-15T19:11:27 <CodeShark> agreed
869 2015-10-15T19:11:28 <wumpus> what was wrong with using a special message to signal support for it?
870 2015-10-15T19:11:49 <sdaftuar> perhaps nothing? i think the objection was having network messages that change state
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872 2015-10-15T19:12:14 <sdaftuar> but as the state only changes once, and the way it's implemented, it only chnages right after the verack's are sent i think,
873 2015-10-15T19:12:15 <sipa> i don't understand that concern
874 2015-10-15T19:12:22 <gmaxwell> We could however add an "options" message that can send flags. I wouldn't be opposed to that. But I don't see a strong advantage over just having a message.
875 2015-10-15T19:12:23 <sipa> the protocol is already badly stateless
876 2015-10-15T19:12:26 <sipa> eh, statefull
877 2015-10-15T19:12:37 <wumpus> well you can require that it happens between version and any other messages
878 2015-10-15T19:12:44 <gmaxwell> Also, the message is advisory, so if its handled out of order thats okay.
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880 2015-10-15T19:12:56 <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: yes, i agree
881 2015-10-15T19:13:00 <wumpus> to prevent it from becoming a 'change state' message
882 2015-10-15T19:13:01 <sipa> can we require the message be sent between version and verack?
883 2015-10-15T19:13:29 <sipa> or would this trip up older clients that expect nothing in between
884 2015-10-15T19:13:45 <davec> that would probably break older clients
885 2015-10-15T19:13:46 <sdaftuar> well we only send it if the recipient's version is high enough
886 2015-10-15T19:13:46 <wumpus> I think that will cause potential problems
887 2015-10-15T19:14:02 <wumpus> just require that it happens before getheaders
888 2015-10-15T19:14:04 <wumpus> problem solved.
889 2015-10-15T19:14:27 <sipa> is there a problem even with it being a state change?
890 2015-10-15T19:14:38 <sdaftuar> i don't think there is, from the perspective of the code change that implements it
891 2015-10-15T19:14:52 <sipa> receiving the message and understanding it sets a bit 'this peer supports X'. there is no way to unset it
892 2015-10-15T19:14:54 <wumpus> it's not nice to have it possible to change the state back and forth
893 2015-10-15T19:15:03 <sdaftuar> it can't go the other way
894 2015-10-15T19:15:08 <sdaftuar> ie you can enable it, but you can't disable it
895 2015-10-15T19:15:19 *** maraoz has joined #bitcoin-dev
896 2015-10-15T19:15:22 <sipa> exactly
897 2015-10-15T19:15:23 <wumpus> a connection should have well-defined propreties, ideally negotiated in the beginning
898 2015-10-15T19:15:25 <wumpus> ok
899 2015-10-15T19:15:29 <gmaxwell> sipa: I think as long as it's clear that it doesn't necessarily have immediate effect, then the concern there is moot. Though we might want to consider uniformity with future optional extensions.
900 2015-10-15T19:15:39 <sipa> gmaxwell: fair enough
901 2015-10-15T19:16:03 <wumpus> what do you mean with 'immediate effect'? I think it can be required that it applies to messages sent after it?
902 2015-10-15T19:16:11 <sipa> just say that 'optional feature negotiation' happens immediately after verack, and before any 'data' messages
903 2015-10-15T19:16:14 <sipa> ?
904 2015-10-15T19:16:23 <wumpus> what would be the point in having it, say, take effect 5 seconds later?
905 2015-10-15T19:16:31 <sdaftuar> wumpus: announcing via headers isn
906 2015-10-15T19:16:37 <davec> I'd rather have it one way as well. Otherwise it adds a bunch of complexity for something that, in my opinion, wouldn't even be very useful
907 2015-10-15T19:16:43 *** Lightsword has joined #bitcoin-dev
908 2015-10-15T19:16:47 <btcdrak> for the log, sendheaders link on the ML http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011184.html
909 2015-10-15T19:16:49 <sdaftuar> 't guaranteed to happen. there are situations where it falls back to inv (eg if you don't know where your peer is)
910 2015-10-15T19:16:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: it doesn't matter if it takes effect 5 seconds later.
911 2015-10-15T19:17:01 <sipa> davec: well it would be optional!
912 2015-10-15T19:17:03 <wumpus> gmaxwell: ok
913 2015-10-15T19:17:25 <davec> I meant in regards to toggling it back off after it has been enabled
914 2015-10-15T19:17:29 <wumpus> yes, it would be optional, so if you don't think it is useful, don't implement it
915 2015-10-15T19:17:33 <gmaxwell> I think it should be one way.
916 2015-10-15T19:17:57 <sipa> davec: i don't think that should be supported at all; either just a message to enable it at any time, or even stricter and require that it happens during some early handshake
917 2015-10-15T19:18:07 <davec> we agree
918 2015-10-15T19:18:09 <sipa> but no disabling
919 2015-10-15T19:18:19 <sipa> #agree no unsetting sendheaders
920 2015-10-15T19:18:19 <wumpus> that's already what is in the BIP
921 2015-10-15T19:18:36 <gmaxwell> I think it might be polte to require it be up front, but take care that it doesn't interact poorly with other optional things like it.
922 2015-10-15T19:19:06 <sipa> sdaftuar: what do you think about requiring sendheaders be sent right after verack, and before anything else?
923 2015-10-15T19:19:09 <gmaxwell> e.g. if you expect it to be up front but in the future you get ver/verak sendfrogs sendheaders ... you shouldn't reject the send headers because it came after the sendfrogs that you don't understand.
924 2015-10-15T19:19:11 <morcos> i think we're over constraining this
925 2015-10-15T19:19:20 *** jzk has joined #bitcoin-dev
926 2015-10-15T19:19:30 <sipa> morcos: maybe
927 2015-10-15T19:19:38 <wumpus> sipa: how wil that interact with future messages?
928 2015-10-15T19:19:49 <morcos> its entirely possible some future optimization may say, i want to send sendheaders to these peers b/c they announce a lot of new stuff to me and not these others b/c they don't
929 2015-10-15T19:20:05 <wumpus> sipa: I don't think being toos trict there is a good idea, especially as it crosses between concerns
930 2015-10-15T19:20:16 <morcos> maybe you want to wait and send it later once you have some data
931 2015-10-15T19:20:17 <wumpus> sipa: e.g. who cares if it is sent before or after an 'alert' message
932 2015-10-15T19:20:29 <sipa> ok, so no problem with state changing, as long as it's unidirection, but we don't care when it happens?
933 2015-10-15T19:20:42 <sipa> fine by me
934 2015-10-15T19:21:00 <gmaxwell> Yea, it's unidirection and no proposes when it happens or if it happens at all.
935 2015-10-15T19:21:01 <morcos> ok, and to be clear why does it have to be unidirectional?
936 2015-10-15T19:21:07 *** harding has joined #bitcoin-dev
937 2015-10-15T19:21:14 <morcos> i mean i don't see any reason for bidirectionality now
938 2015-10-15T19:21:18 <morcos> but why impose it?
939 2015-10-15T19:21:19 <wumpus> unless there would be some clear negotiation phase in which *all* extra negotiation happens, but I don't think it's worth locking that down for this
940 2015-10-15T19:21:26 <CodeShark> you mean add another message donotsendheaders?
941 2015-10-15T19:21:29 <wumpus> I think this topic is done
942 2015-10-15T19:21:33 <sipa> ok
943 2015-10-15T19:21:42 <CodeShark> can we throw in versionbits as a topic?
944 2015-10-15T19:21:43 <morcos> ok sure
945 2015-10-15T19:21:44 <sdaftuar> it sounds like everyone is ok with the BIP as drafted then?
946 2015-10-15T19:21:57 <wumpus> yes
947 2015-10-15T19:21:59 <gmaxwell> I think so.
948 2015-10-15T19:22:02 <davec> yes
949 2015-10-15T19:22:08 <wumpus> it's uncontroversial and clear
950 2015-10-15T19:22:11 <sdaftuar> ok great
951 2015-10-15T19:22:12 <btcdrak> yes
952 2015-10-15T19:22:24 <gmaxwell> PR the BIP for number assignment.
953 2015-10-15T19:22:28 <sdaftuar> will do
954 2015-10-15T19:22:33 <sipa> well, the only person with concerns was cfields, who doesn't seem to be here :)
955 2015-10-15T19:22:44 <gmaxwell> sipa: he can raise concerns later too!
956 2015-10-15T19:22:46 <cfields> dammit!
957 2015-10-15T19:22:49 <wumpus> #topic versionbits
958 2015-10-15T19:22:53 <sipa> cfields: too late!
959 2015-10-15T19:22:54 <gmaxwell> ha
960 2015-10-15T19:23:07 <cfields> did i really miss my third one of these in a row?
961 2015-10-15T19:23:22 <btcdrak> CodeShark: you have the floor.
962 2015-10-15T19:23:24 <gmaxwell> I have not read the versionbits implementation yet.
963 2015-10-15T19:23:30 <gmaxwell> (sorry)
964 2015-10-15T19:23:34 <cfields> sorry all
965 2015-10-15T19:23:39 <wumpus> me neither
966 2015-10-15T19:23:46 <sipa> i have looked at it briefly, but i'd like to see how it integrates with the consensus code in main
967 2015-10-15T19:23:57 <wumpus> #action review versionbits implementation
968 2015-10-15T19:23:58 <sipa> though i'll review the code that is there
969 2015-10-15T19:24:06 *** afk11 has quit IRC
970 2015-10-15T19:24:06 <CodeShark> so right now it's just a unit that implements the versionbits logic but does not demonstrate its usage
971 2015-10-15T19:24:21 <CodeShark> I thought it would be better to actually integrate in a separate PR, but I can add a demonstration
972 2015-10-15T19:24:25 <btcdrak> versionbits PR is https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816
973 2015-10-15T19:24:53 <sipa> CodeShark: separate commit, same PR - i think we need something that's mergable as a whole, to be able to see whether the whole thing easily backports
974 2015-10-15T19:25:03 <btcdrak> sipa: agree
975 2015-10-15T19:25:19 <sipa> (is my preference, i don't feel very strongly)
976 2015-10-15T19:25:19 <warren> Proposed for last topic: dev/discuss list policy followup
977 2015-10-15T19:25:51 <wumpus> #topic dev/discuss list policy followup
978 2015-10-15T19:26:18 <CodeShark> well, the integration I was envisioning also depends on $5747
979 2015-10-15T19:26:19 <CodeShark> err
980 2015-10-15T19:26:23 <CodeShark> #6747
981 2015-10-15T19:27:08 <wumpus> what is the state there warren?
982 2015-10-15T19:27:19 <CodeShark> err, are we done with versionbits?
983 2015-10-15T19:27:21 <CodeShark> I still had more
984 2015-10-15T19:27:31 *** uiop has joined #bitcoin-dev
985 2015-10-15T19:27:34 <CodeShark> sorry, crappy keyboard hard to type
986 2015-10-15T19:27:37 <wumpus> CodeShark: no one has apparanetly reviewed it yet, so I don't think there's much more to discuss
987 2015-10-15T19:27:38 *** uiop has quit IRC
988 2015-10-15T19:27:49 <CodeShark> I just wanted to address sipa's concern
989 2015-10-15T19:27:52 <btcdrak> The new list was created bitcoin-discuss, warren was supposed to distribute the admin password to jgarzik and someone else.
990 2015-10-15T19:27:53 <warren> We had a sort of meeting Monday to discuss this, jgarzik couldn't make it, we came to some rough consensus on some points, but since then I've seen mention of 2+ other proposals and I've been too busy with other things to follow what is happening. My fault.
991 2015-10-15T19:28:19 *** twbt has joined #bitcoin-dev
992 2015-10-15T19:28:22 *** uiop has joined #bitcoin-dev
993 2015-10-15T19:28:22 <warren> Was jgarzik's list post the result of some other discussion?
994 2015-10-15T19:28:28 *** uiop has quit IRC
995 2015-10-15T19:28:35 <warren> There was also mention that rusty had a separate proposal, did that happen?
996 2015-10-15T19:28:51 <btcdrak> warren: I think we are at risk of bikeshedding the issue. We have discussed moderation a lot over the last weeks and jeff seemed pretty keen and willing to pick up the bat. We just need to see how it plays out from now imo.
997 2015-10-15T19:28:53 <maaku> rusty (who is in australia where it is early AM) had a separate proposal for moderation of bitcoin-dev
998 2015-10-15T19:29:10 <CodeShark> fwiw, we should probably NOT state policy in a message on the ML but post it on some site and just provide the link on the ML
999 2015-10-15T19:29:17 <maaku> jgarzik is not here either so it's hard to confirm, but I think these are separate proposals
1000 2015-10-15T19:29:32 <btcdrak> my recollection of things was that we'll only set the moderate bit on someone who fails to comply with moderator wishes.
1001 2015-10-15T19:29:55 <warren> Yes, a neutrally hosted website for list policy with github pull requests to update it will happen soon. Asked LF to host it as a neutral entity.
1002 2015-10-15T19:30:40 <warren> It may be prudent to see rusty and jgarzik's proposal and to collectively reconvene after all the options are on the table.
1003 2015-10-15T19:31:03 <btcdrak> warren: have you distributed the administration passwords yet?
1004 2015-10-15T19:31:12 <warren> btcdrak: when policy isn't decided on?
1005 2015-10-15T19:31:21 <btcdrak> when are we going to accounce bitcoin-discuss@ ?
1006 2015-10-15T19:31:24 *** Texploit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1007 2015-10-15T19:31:25 <morcos> too much bureaucracy, lets let jeff do it, if he does a bad job, we'll fire him
1008 2015-10-15T19:31:31 *** nsh has quit IRC
1009 2015-10-15T19:31:38 <warren> morcos: who decides? =)
1010 2015-10-15T19:31:41 <btcdrak> warren: I'm really not keen on this bureaucracy.
1011 2015-10-15T19:31:44 <wumpus> tend to agree morcos... see to be overthinking this
1012 2015-10-15T19:32:07 <btcdrak> if jeff falls out of line, we're going to beat him with a stick, so let's just get going
1013 2015-10-15T19:32:17 <BlueMatt> lets let jeff and rusty and anyone else who is talking about this discuss between themselves and let them decide
1014 2015-10-15T19:32:23 <morcos> we are all deciding right now, jeff is the maintainer of list moderation policy and personnel
1015 2015-10-15T19:32:26 *** zooko` has quit IRC
1016 2015-10-15T19:32:26 <BlueMatt> since none of them are even there
1017 2015-10-15T19:32:27 <btcdrak> BlueMatt: agreed
1018 2015-10-15T19:32:27 <sipa> BlueMatt: sgtm
1019 2015-10-15T19:32:36 <warren> If the devs decide in their meeting "just let jeff decide" then fine, that's simple. You folks decide that now, or maybe wait and see what rusty's proposal is first?
1020 2015-10-15T19:32:37 <BlueMatt> here*
1021 2015-10-15T19:32:51 <morcos> yes, we'll tell jeff he should take into account rusty's proposal
1022 2015-10-15T19:33:00 <warren> BlueMatt: +1
1023 2015-10-15T19:33:17 <CodeShark> this policy thing mostly became such a huge issue this year because of certain specific events...and I think it is somewhat of a mistake to try to generalize from this specific experience
1024 2015-10-15T19:33:19 <warren> Isn't BlueMatt's approach reasonable?
1025 2015-10-15T19:33:20 <GreenIsMyPepper> yes, interested parties can discuss and results posted publicly, agreed
1026 2015-10-15T19:33:33 <morcos> someone has to take responsibility or nothing happens
1027 2015-10-15T19:33:37 <btcdrak> I vote we let jeff decide with rusty's input. They both have greater experience of lkm and stuff.
1028 2015-10-15T19:33:40 <BlueMatt> morcos: I think multiple people are?
1029 2015-10-15T19:33:53 <CodeShark> or at least, I think the real causes for the fundamental problems had little to do with the ML
1030 2015-10-15T19:33:54 <BlueMatt> morcos: both jeff and rusty (and others?) are working on proposals and want to move forward
1031 2015-10-15T19:33:56 <GreenIsMyPepper> also, it's assumed -dev policy should be discussed in -discuss, correct?
1032 2015-10-15T19:33:57 <BlueMatt> no reason to cut that off now?
1033 2015-10-15T19:33:58 <wumpus> BlueMatt: they're just not here
1034 2015-10-15T19:34:09 <warren> GreenIsMyPepper: wha?
1035 2015-10-15T19:34:19 <BlueMatt> wumpus: I dunno about jeff, but rusty cannot reasonably be awake at this hour
1036 2015-10-15T19:34:22 <morcos> i find the ML unusable now
1037 2015-10-15T19:34:32 <morcos> i don't feel like we should wait for action
1038 2015-10-15T19:34:39 <morcos> nothing is undoable
1039 2015-10-15T19:34:47 <btcdrak> morcos: I propose we vote on "let jeff decide" now
1040 2015-10-15T19:35:03 *** paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-dev
1041 2015-10-15T19:35:07 <btcdrak> if that doesnt work in a few weeks we can revisit it.
1042 2015-10-15T19:35:12 <BlueMatt> morcos: meh, will we really die if we wait a week?
1043 2015-10-15T19:35:13 <GreenIsMyPepper> warren: it's a common behavior for metadiscussion to be on a different channel, i think metafilter was one of the earliest uses of this and it makes tending the garden far easier, i assume a sepearate ml is unnecessary. but i don't mind either way just wondering?
1044 2015-10-15T19:35:23 <warren> rusty and jeff are both very reasonable people with a lot of experience, I'd like to see what they can come up with together. If they can't agree quickly then we just decide shortly after.
1045 2015-10-15T19:35:38 <morcos> ok, well i will unsubscribe in the meantime
1046 2015-10-15T19:35:40 <morcos> moving on
1047 2015-10-15T19:35:45 <warren> sigh
1048 2015-10-15T19:35:58 <btcdrak> warren: if you think they are reasonable, let them get on with it. We dont need to have all this bureaucracy
1049 2015-10-15T19:35:59 *** Texploit has quit IRC
1050 2015-10-15T19:36:03 <wumpus> ok, any more topics? this seems not to be constructive with the people involved here
1051 2015-10-15T19:36:08 <btcdrak> I'm also considering unsubscribing at this rate.
1052 2015-10-15T19:36:22 <warren> btcdrak: if the decision today is "let the TWO of them decide" that's fine with me
1053 2015-10-15T19:36:27 <wumpus> #action rusty and jgarzik should discuss this, who are not here
1054 2015-10-15T19:36:43 <btcdrak> wumpus: I'd like to discuss http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011555.html
1055 2015-10-15T19:37:07 <wumpus> #topic CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY - We need more usecases to motivate the change
1056 2015-10-15T19:37:46 <CodeShark> lol - I don't think that subject is accurate anymore
1057 2015-10-15T19:37:51 <CodeShark> the usecases are not the issue
1058 2015-10-15T19:37:55 <morcos> my opinion is we just need to settle on exact semantics, i think moving forwad is justified
1059 2015-10-15T19:37:58 <CodeShark> it's the format of the nSequence field that's at issue
1060 2015-10-15T19:38:12 <btcdrak> wumpus: lots of usecases were added to the CSV BIP https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0112.mediawiki#Motivation
1061 2015-10-15T19:38:41 <btcdrak> I think BIP68 is pretty much done (implementation). We changed things to account for concerns last week
1062 2015-10-15T19:39:29 <btcdrak> maaku was suggesting moving one of the bits to allow for other implementations, like sidechains to have better granularity
1063 2015-10-15T19:39:54 <btcdrak> there doesnt appear to be any downside that I can see, but he wanted to know if anyone had objections (see the ML post)
1064 2015-10-15T19:40:25 <maaku> yeah it's just moving a bit around
1065 2015-10-15T19:40:39 <btcdrak> implementation code is here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6312/files
1066 2015-10-15T19:40:45 <maaku> #6312 is done (modulo moving the bit)
1067 2015-10-15T19:41:08 <sipa> maaku: did you see my comment?
1068 2015-10-15T19:41:14 <sipa> about it breaking the wallet
1069 2015-10-15T19:41:32 <CodeShark> can't sidechains use an entirely different mechanism designed from the start into the protocol? Why should sidechains limit themselves to the fields in the original satoshi protocol?
1070 2015-10-15T19:41:44 <gmaxwell> I don't think anyone cares about the nsequence semantics in gretat details; except that it's preferable to use as few a bits as can be used without impact.
1071 2015-10-15T19:41:49 <btcdrak> maaku: this was sipa's two comments: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6312/files#r41899674
1072 2015-10-15T19:41:50 *** afk11 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1073 2015-10-15T19:42:25 *** nsh has joined #bitcoin-dev
1074 2015-10-15T19:42:41 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: I agree. I think we've nailed using as few bits as possible and that should be enough. The semantics are less important
1075 2015-10-15T19:42:47 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
1076 2015-10-15T19:42:49 <maaku> sipa: does the wallet filter out non-final transactions from display?
1077 2015-10-15T19:42:50 <sipa> CodeShark: they shouldn't limit themselves to anything, but being able to reuse code (and having clients being able to reuse their code!) is useful
1078 2015-10-15T19:42:55 *** MiningBuddy has quit IRC
1079 2015-10-15T19:42:58 <GreenIsMyPepper> gmaxwell: +1
1080 2015-10-15T19:42:58 <sipa> maaku: yes
1081 2015-10-15T19:42:58 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: because the bitcoin ecosystem stinks. The problem is that every application reimplements the protocol on its own, so every divergence or change is like walking on a bed of glass. I don't really think its a consideration here; but I do think that if its something we'd want to change in a sidechain thats a sign that its flexibility that might eventually be wanted in bitcoin.
1082 2015-10-15T19:43:27 <maaku> sipa: interesting. ok then honestly I'd rather revert to the prior skip-not-found-inputs behavior
1083 2015-10-15T19:43:41 <maaku> (the breakage was your suggestion btw ;) )
1084 2015-10-15T19:43:46 <sipa> maaku: i would really really prefer a pass-heights-and-times in...
1085 2015-10-15T19:44:02 <maaku> sipa: that's what the view is
1086 2015-10-15T19:44:17 <maaku> but that's not backportable change anyway
1087 2015-10-15T19:44:26 <maaku> so it's something work work on separately
1088 2015-10-15T19:44:34 *** tb_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1089 2015-10-15T19:44:37 <gmaxwell> having non-confirmed tx not show up in the wallet right away isn't a big deal, I think.
1090 2015-10-15T19:44:42 *** ericmuyser has joined #bitcoin-dev
1091 2015-10-15T19:44:50 <maaku> gmaxwell: this is about confirmed tx with spent outputs
1092 2015-10-15T19:44:53 <jonasschnelli> It's mainly that part that needs adaption: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/b94ae81576c199c9a44453b8c9b17e8303f67b72/src/wallet/wallet.cpp#L1319
1093 2015-10-15T19:45:52 <gmaxwell> Though seperately, I think CSV is not on target for the end of the month. The amount of activity and progress has been tremendous and positive; but also demonstrating that the semantics were not quite as mature as we'd hoped.
1094 2015-10-15T19:46:34 <sipa> maaku: view currently isn't adequate, but you only need a few pieces of data from it... i think it's much simpler to just pass those in
1095 2015-10-15T19:46:35 *** uiop has joined #bitcoin-dev
1096 2015-10-15T19:46:37 <morcos> gmaxwell: yes i think thats clear
1097 2015-10-15T19:46:42 *** uiop has quit IRC
1098 2015-10-15T19:47:00 *** uiop has joined #bitcoin-dev
1099 2015-10-15T19:47:27 <wumpus> tend to agree
1100 2015-10-15T19:47:34 <BlueMatt> yup, sadly :(
1101 2015-10-15T19:48:02 *** uiop has joined #bitcoin-dev
1102 2015-10-15T19:48:10 <gmaxwell> Well its good news that we made this progress, not bad news.
1103 2015-10-15T19:48:37 <maaku> what's the topic to be decided here?
1104 2015-10-15T19:49:10 <btcdrak> maaku: whether anyone cares about you moving bits: the answer seems to be go for it
1105 2015-10-15T19:49:12 <gmaxwell> maaku: dunno, btcdrak wanted to talk about it. I don't think there is any decision point on this right now.
1106 2015-10-15T19:49:12 <maaku> I would appreciate reviews and explicit ACK/NACK of the code in #6312
1107 2015-10-15T19:49:13 <wumpus> nothing to be decided AFAIK, people just wanted to discuss it
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1109 2015-10-15T19:49:52 <maaku> I will revert lack-of-utxo to be a pass-though again, to address sipa's nit
1110 2015-10-15T19:49:58 <morcos> maaku: but can you tell us when you're done changing it
1111 2015-10-15T19:49:59 <CodeShark> the short-term benefits of a relative time lock (regardless of semantics) outweighs the long-term concerns I have about eating up bits since I'm hoping eventually we'll have better upgrade mechanisms in the long run :)
1112 2015-10-15T19:50:02 <CodeShark> but perhaps I'm too optimistic
1113 2015-10-15T19:50:07 <gmaxwell> maaku: I can go post that I'm fine with the semantics changes you propose. I think I will be fine with _any_ minor changes to the semantics.
1114 2015-10-15T19:50:10 <maaku> what is the decision point / deadline for BIPS 68, 112, 113?
1115 2015-10-15T19:50:17 <btcdrak> maaku: i's say make the change you suggested on the ML, fix the bug from sipa and then let's review the code again.
1116 2015-10-15T19:50:24 <morcos> for end of oct release, id say we're well past that
1117 2015-10-15T19:50:33 <gmaxwell> So this might be modulated slightly by the recent emergency software updates.
1118 2015-10-15T19:50:44 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: please do post that
1119 2015-10-15T19:50:46 <morcos> maaku: I'm leaning towards sipa's suggested manner of fixing it
1120 2015-10-15T19:51:12 <maaku> morcos: i strongly oppose but it's a moot point: that's not back portable
1121 2015-10-15T19:51:18 <maaku> for the soft-fork it has to be a simple back port
1122 2015-10-15T19:51:25 <maaku> we can fix the api for 0.13
1123 2015-10-15T19:51:49 <gmaxwell> Basically, our prior tennative plan as I understood it was that we were going to look to do a CLTV soft fork prior to 0.12 with end of oct as a close date; with a hope of perhaps getting the other locktime changes in.
1124 2015-10-15T19:51:55 <btcdrak> OT: if we are sure CSV wont make it for the Oct release, I'd say we should proceed with CLTV softfork.
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1126 2015-10-15T19:52:27 <sipa> maaku: i don't think it's specifically hard to back port - it would just add some functions
1127 2015-10-15T19:52:42 <sipa> adding function is easy - changing many calls is hard
1128 2015-10-15T19:52:46 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: it's unrealistic because we need to get backports to 0.11 and 0.10 and also review those, and we dont have any ACKs yet at all on BIP113's implementation sadyly
1129 2015-10-15T19:52:52 <gmaxwell> I think that CSV/friends is almost certantly off for that right now; but I also think that last weeks emergency update may have also modulated the plan slightly for CLTV. (My concern is related to tolerance for revision cycling).
1130 2015-10-15T19:52:53 <wumpus> btcdrak: agree, but let's first wait a bit for 0.11.1 rollout
1131 2015-10-15T19:52:54 <morcos> I think that it makes sense for the semantics and code to be finalized for at least a month before release for consensus code. We still need fixes before we can review again.
1132 2015-10-15T19:53:23 <maaku> if we could at least get 113 in for CLTV that would be great
1133 2015-10-15T19:53:29 <maaku> but no one has reviewed it
1134 2015-10-15T19:53:30 <wumpus> gmaxwell: though the softfork was never meant as a 'normal' revision, it should be softfork only
1135 2015-10-15T19:54:12 <morcos> maaku: that's a good point, has there been any objection at all to 113?
1136 2015-10-15T19:54:14 <btcdrak> Would people be willing to review BIP113's implementation for this week? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6566 median-past locktime
1137 2015-10-15T19:54:16 <wumpus> but yes, not right now immediately
1138 2015-10-15T19:54:20 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I agree sure, but its still a software upgrade for miners.
1139 2015-10-15T19:54:36 <gmaxwell> I think 113 is really great.
1140 2015-10-15T19:54:56 <maaku> I can rebase #6566 to not depend on #6312
1141 2015-10-15T19:54:59 <morcos> gmaxwell partied here
1142 2015-10-15T19:55:00 <wumpus> #action review https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6566 median-past locktime
1143 2015-10-15T19:55:10 <BlueMatt> 5 minutes remaining?
1144 2015-10-15T19:55:11 <sipa> maaku: of the 6 commits in 6566, only the last two are unique to bip113?
1145 2015-10-15T19:55:12 <btcdrak> maaku: do it
1146 2015-10-15T19:55:23 <gmaxwell> I hard stop on the hour, fwiw.
1147 2015-10-15T19:55:28 <BlueMatt> same
1148 2015-10-15T19:55:28 <maaku> morcos: to my knowledge noone except me has even looked at #6566
1149 2015-10-15T19:55:50 <gmaxwell> (unfortunately the same day we set this meeting time another reoccuring meeting was booked for me immediately after it)
1150 2015-10-15T19:55:58 <sipa> maaku: i wasn't aware it was independent; i'll look now
1151 2015-10-15T19:55:59 <morcos> i reviewed it, but need to again, because i forgot how closely
1152 2015-10-15T19:56:24 <btcdrak> maaku: please rebase it to be independent of 6312
1153 2015-10-15T19:56:28 <maaku> ok
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1155 2015-10-15T19:56:58 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well the point is to keep the meeting within the hour so that should be no problem
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1157 2015-10-15T19:57:14 <wumpus> any last topic?
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1159 2015-10-15T19:57:47 <BlueMatt> i think we're out of time
1160 2015-10-15T19:57:49 <BlueMatt> thanks all
1161 2015-10-15T19:57:51 <wumpus> #meetingexit
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1163 2015-10-15T19:57:56 <wumpus> #exitmeeting
1164 2015-10-15T19:57:58 <wumpus> eh
1165 2015-10-15T19:58:13 <maaku> sipa: well BIP 113 is independent: "locktime checks have an endpoint of GetMedianTimePast() of the prior block"
1166 2015-10-15T19:58:14 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1167 2015-10-15T19:58:14 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 15 19:58:14 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1168 2015-10-15T19:58:14 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-15-19.01.html
1169 2015-10-15T19:58:14 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-15-19.01.txt
1170 2015-10-15T19:58:14 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-15-19.01.log.html
1171 2015-10-15T19:58:54 <maaku> sipa: but that affects both absolute and relative lock-time, so #6566 is written on top of #6312 and does both changes
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1173 2015-10-15T19:59:05 <sipa> maaku: got it
1174 2015-10-15T19:59:18 <maaku> I'll rebase to do only the nLockTime change
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1176 2015-10-15T20:00:35 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: I'd like to see what people think about an option to add flagged nodes (like whitebind). These nodes need to auth over nonce signing with a pre-shared pubkey and use a encrypted channel over ECDH aes key exchange and could therefore access additional services (like wallet related stuff), gain privileges and hide traffic to merkleblock, etc..
1177 2015-10-15T20:00:46 <jonasschnelli> Maybe to far way from reality...
1178 2015-10-15T20:01:17 <sipa> the encryption isn't as important and the authentication
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1181 2015-10-15T20:01:48 <sipa> so you know you're talking to your trusted full node, and being MitM'ed
1182 2015-10-15T20:01:54 <jonasschnelli> sipa: for SPV it would be a nice addition (encryption)
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1184 2015-10-15T20:02:28 <sipa> it would add privacy from passive attackers, yes, and i think that opportunistic encryption is useful anyway
1185 2015-10-15T20:02:53 <jonasschnelli> having an encrypted channel would a node allow to send additional data like access to txindex or addressindex
1186 2015-10-15T20:02:59 <sipa> jonasschnelli: ???
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1188 2015-10-15T20:03:09 <sipa> what does encryption have to do with that
1189 2015-10-15T20:03:22 <sipa> for things like that, you need a server that trusts the client
1190 2015-10-15T20:03:30 <sipa> which is authentication the other way
1191 2015-10-15T20:03:44 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: how would you propose configuring the authentication? And why wouldn't that just use symmetric keying (a question; trying to understand the application)
1192 2015-10-15T20:04:56 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: storing a symmetric key on the node would be a risk IMO. ECDH would kind-of replace the stunnel (etc.) option.
1193 2015-10-15T20:05:37 <sipa> let's talk about encryption and authentication separately
1194 2015-10-15T20:06:03 <jonasschnelli> sipa: right additional services authentication is more important. But i think it should be nice if i could encrypt traffic so my ISP can't listen to my bloomfilters, etc.
1195 2015-10-15T20:06:17 <sipa> you want host authentication for spv clients that talk to a trusted server
1196 2015-10-15T20:06:43 <sipa> you want client authentication for servers that provide potentially expensive indexing services
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1198 2015-10-15T20:06:56 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I'm not clear about the risks you are thinking about. I agree it's preferable, but someone with access to the node necessarily has the power to impersonate it, and mitm it. If you have write access, you can update its access list. Asymetric crypto doesn't meaningfully help these things.
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1201 2015-10-15T20:07:09 <GreenIsMyPepper> increasing the cost of passive attackers is always nice, provided that it's not visually viewed as secure/encrypted in the UI
1202 2015-10-15T20:07:26 <sipa> GreenIsMyPepper: indeed, that's opportunistic encryption
1203 2015-10-15T20:09:52 <jonasschnelli> Okay. let me think about it more detailed... I just want to avoid detaching a wallet the requires p2p and RPC.
1204 2015-10-15T20:10:02 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: wrt stunnel, this sounds like you're talking about replacing RPC?
1205 2015-10-15T20:10:27 <sipa> jonasschnelli: the additional-services-over-p2p thing is somewhat a replacement for rpc
1206 2015-10-15T20:10:41 <jonasschnelli> sipa: right.
1207 2015-10-15T20:11:08 <CodeShark> I've anguished with this problem a lot - because until we have something like TXO commitments (or some mechanism for proving the validity of the query results not requiring full validation) the security model stinks :p
1208 2015-10-15T20:11:28 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: No only but also for RPC. Unencrypted p2p taffic for a SPV->trusted-node connection is somehow bad and would require the avoid bloomfilter to ensure privacy..
1209 2015-10-15T20:11:36 <gmaxwell> In any case, doing a crypto layer for p2p, and doing it well will be a really considerable effort... including not doing things that make nodes gratitiously fingerprintable (e.g. trackable as they change IPs)
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1211 2015-10-15T20:11:54 <sipa> my original thought a long time ago was just to introduce EC host keys, which are advertized in addr messages, and if enabled, used for ECDH to establish a session key for authentication and encryption
1212 2015-10-15T20:12:00 <sipa> but that does make fingerprinting much easier
1213 2015-10-15T20:12:20 <sipa> so you probably want the host keys only to be used when explicitly known to the client beforehand
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1215 2015-10-15T20:13:11 <jonasschnelli> sipa: Yes. I think it would make more sense to initially share them on a different channel.
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1217 2015-10-15T20:13:33 <CodeShark> I am strongly opposed to using the p2p messages for trusted communications
1218 2015-10-15T20:14:04 <CodeShark> but encrypting just for the sake of passive eavesdroppers is ok
1219 2015-10-15T20:14:31 <sipa> it's a pity that you can't even get TOFU security if you want to avoid fingerprinting :(
1220 2015-10-15T20:14:32 <gmaxwell> There are protocols that avoid the fingerprinting; e.g. (the server protectng mode of) https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/54/I-D/draft-ietf-ipsec-jfk-04.txt
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1252 2015-10-15T21:01:30 <warren> Luke-Jr: I was thinking, perhaps similar to your -support list idea, #bitcoin-support might be worthwhile. Could be less noisy than #bitcoin and thus a more productive space for volunteers who want to help. Off-topic discussion can be moved away from it.
1253 2015-10-15T21:02:01 <Luke-Jr> #bitcoin isn't usually that noisy IMO, but ok
1254 2015-10-15T21:02:53 <warren> #bitcoin has no restriction aside from spamming, which makes it perhaps not great for volunteers to follow if they really do want to help.
1255 2015-10-15T21:03:48 <gmaxwell> please do not divert support traffic out of #bitcoin.
1256 2015-10-15T21:03:55 <gmaxwell> If you do that I will forcefully close the channel.
1257 2015-10-15T21:04:21 <gmaxwell> right now the support traffic (that pretty reliably gets answered there) is some of the few things that prevent it from becoming a useless cesspool.
1258 2015-10-15T21:04:59 <gmaxwell> warren: you're talking about a subject which you are not well informed, it is entirely untrie that the channel has no restriction aside from spamming.
1259 2015-10-15T21:05:16 <gmaxwell> It is actively moderated; better than this channel often.
1260 2015-10-15T21:05:56 <warren> gmaxwell: oh ok, closing channel
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1269 2015-10-15T21:21:55 <midnightmagic> fwiw, #bitcoin has *significant* and *strict* rules about discussion, spam, what's on-topic, and *regularly* boots out people who violate even just the civility rule.
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1276 2015-10-15T21:30:06 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: rememebr to post to the ML about sequence number please.
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