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 654 2015-10-16T04:56:24  <SourabhL> hello
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 703 2015-10-16T06:53:45  <Luke-Jr> cfields: any chance you can write up gitian-compatible depends/ for BFGMiner dependencies if you get a chance?
 704 2015-10-16T06:53:50  <Luke-Jr> particularly targetting Mac
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 809 2015-10-16T10:56:59  <Sigals> I've installed bitcoind on my server and set it to testnet, it's up to date with the latest block but I don't seem to be able to query for transactions, for example https://www.blocktrail.com/tBTC/tx/299f7839e65696441bde7b86a4637298514ae13c3aaff8fc4454a0afb0f7071e this transaction, If I run "bitcoin-cli gettransaction 299f7839e65696441bde7b86a4637298514ae13c3aaff8fc4454a0afb0f7071e" it says error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid or
 810 2015-10-16T10:57:28  <Luke-Jr> gettransaction is a wallet method, it only accesses your own wallet
 811 2015-10-16T10:57:48  <Luke-Jr> getrawtransaction is what you probably want, and it only works reliably with txindex=1 in bitcoin.conf (which requires a reindex)
 812 2015-10-16T10:57:55  <Luke-Jr> (and takes up more disk space)
 813 2015-10-16T10:58:42  <Sigals> I tried getrawtransaction too error: {"code":-5,"message":"No information available about transaction"}
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 815 2015-10-16T10:59:37  <Sigals> If I try listtransactions, nothing shows up either
 816 2015-10-16T11:01:14  <Sigals> Oh, it seems to be working now for some strange reason... lol
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 820 2015-10-16T11:03:47  <matsjj> whats a reasonable bandwidth requirement to run something behind tor? Currently designing some specs around lightning.. Is 100kb/s constant load up and down too much? Where would you define a threshold for a network, such that it can be said to be decentralised, as everyone can run it from home? I'm rather biased by my rather fast connection
 821 2015-10-16T11:03:51  *** nivah has joined #bitcoin-dev
 822 2015-10-16T11:07:18  <matsjj> trying to find these 'bathtubs limits'.. 1kb/s can easily be said to allow for strong decentralisation, while 100MB/s will only allow centralised services
 823 2015-10-16T11:13:27  <kuzetsa> O_O
 824 2015-10-16T11:14:16  <kuzetsa> tor-specific bitcoin usage case isn't something I figured was a core development / operations / design goal for bitcoin
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 826 2015-10-16T11:14:36  <matsjj> Talking about lightning nodes ;)
 827 2015-10-16T11:14:47  <kuzetsa> I might be biased and buy into the fear of bitcoin being associated with "the darknet" and not want to really discuss it though
 828 2015-10-16T11:16:04  <kuzetsa> is lightning a bitcoin client
 829 2015-10-16T11:16:09  <kuzetsa> not heard of it
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 831 2015-10-16T11:16:36  <matsjj> Oh, no it's an overlayer network for instant payments without custodian risks. lightning.network
 832 2015-10-16T11:17:18  <kuzetsa> hmm
 833 2015-10-16T11:17:19  <matsjj> As a plus side, lightning nodes are deeply incentivised to run full bitcoin nodes as well, so it might really solve the problem of the ever dropping node count
 834 2015-10-16T11:17:22  <kuzetsa> sidechain?
 835 2015-10-16T11:17:30  <matsjj> nah, payment channels
 836 2015-10-16T11:17:30  <kuzetsa> is there a lightning BIP?
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 838 2015-10-16T11:17:58  <matsjj> It's mostly about engineering, not much BIP to it. We need CLTV+CSV though
 839 2015-10-16T11:18:11  <matsjj> and malleability fix would be ideal
 840 2015-10-16T11:18:43  <Luke-Jr> eh, there's plenty to BIP for Lightning..
 841 2015-10-16T11:19:02  <matsjj> but apparently bitcoin nodes take easily 200kb/s constant bandwidth, so designing with 100kb/s should be good for now
 842 2015-10-16T11:19:16  <kuzetsa> BIPs 68, 112 ... hmm
 843 2015-10-16T11:19:17  <matsjj> Luke-Jr: plenty?
 844 2015-10-16T11:19:38  <Luke-Jr> matsjj: anything that requires interoperability between different implementations
 845 2015-10-16T11:20:16  <matsjj> I'll rather expected a list of all of those.. ;)
 846 2015-10-16T11:20:39  <Luke-Jr> I don't know enough about how Lightning is being implemented to go into detail :P
 847 2015-10-16T11:20:47  <kuzetsa> I've never really explored bip 112 before today. not sure what it has to do with tor though
 848 2015-10-16T11:20:51  <matsjj> kuzetsa: As I said, we are ready to go with CLTV+CSV - no further BIPs are needed luckily
 849 2015-10-16T11:21:19  <matsjj> a sighash for normalized txid would be great, but just as a bonus
 850 2015-10-16T11:21:36  <Luke-Jr> matsjj: for example, there'd need to at least be a BIP describing how two wallets negotiate the payment
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 852 2015-10-16T11:22:08  <matsjj> Hm right. I guess I always thought about BIPs as actual consensus changes
 853 2015-10-16T11:22:21  <matsjj> And not as design specifications
 854 2015-10-16T11:22:35  <Luke-Jr> nope, most deal with non-consensus standards
 855 2015-10-16T11:22:52  <matsjj> Good to know. We will have plenty of BIPs then
 856 2015-10-16T11:22:58  <Luke-Jr> ☺
 857 2015-10-16T11:23:07  <kuzetsa> unicode emoji?
 858 2015-10-16T11:23:12  <matsjj> wow
 859 2015-10-16T11:23:14  <matsjj> thats so small
 860 2015-10-16T11:23:20  <Luke-Jr> … emoji didn't exist when ☺ was made in the 80s
 861 2015-10-16T11:23:27  <kuzetsa> ツ
 862 2015-10-16T11:23:39  <kuzetsa> becauase tsu doubles as an emoji, apparently :)
 863 2015-10-16T11:24:07  <kuzetsa> tsu was around before computers :)
 864 2015-10-16T11:24:56  <azku> Does anyone know of bitcoin clients/nodes/libraries that are written in Erlang?
 865 2015-10-16T11:25:20  <matsjj> Luke-Jr: just for the record, would you agree with 100kb/s should be doable by anyone on the world without too much effort?
 866 2015-10-16T11:26:00  <matsjj> Even behind TOR maybe
 867 2015-10-16T11:26:13  <kuzetsa> matsjj: I would say it's not doable by anyone in the world
 868 2015-10-16T11:26:17  <kuzetsa> that's pretty heavy
 869 2015-10-16T11:26:27  <Luke-Jr> matsjj: I think lots of people are stuck behind 56k modems and 2G cellular towers
 870 2015-10-16T11:26:51  <Luke-Jr> realistically, you *won't* get everyone on the world
 871 2015-10-16T11:26:57  <kuzetsa> some people get their internet connections over mobile networks (smartphone tethering, etc.) and with moderate to poor signal, 100kb/s is a tough requirement
 872 2015-10-16T11:27:19  <matsjj> yea I guess that was a bad call - I guess 50% of the world is good already fwiw
 873 2015-10-16T11:27:22  <kuzetsa> 40kb/s is more doable
 874 2015-10-16T11:27:58  <Luke-Jr> indeed, typical high-end 4G in the US is 5 GB/mo, which is under 2 kB/s..
 875 2015-10-16T11:28:11  <kuzetsa> I try not to do streaming radio at higher than 40kb/s if I want my music to keep playing during the commute, for instance
 876 2015-10-16T11:28:35  <matsjj> I guess a better question would be - Is 100kb low enough for most areas in the world to achieve? Income from running a lightning node might vary between $50-$500, depending on the setup
 877 2015-10-16T11:28:47  <kuzetsa> what?
 878 2015-10-16T11:28:52  <kuzetsa> income?
 879 2015-10-16T11:28:54  <matsjj> yep
 880 2015-10-16T11:28:58  <kuzetsa> ...
 881 2015-10-16T11:28:59  <matsjj> thats what I said with incentives
 882 2015-10-16T11:29:02  <kuzetsa> early adopter style?
 883 2015-10-16T11:29:06  <matsjj> No, constant
 884 2015-10-16T11:29:10  <matsjj> for handling transactions
 885 2015-10-16T11:29:10  <kuzetsa> weird
 886 2015-10-16T11:29:13  <kuzetsa> huh ok
 887 2015-10-16T11:29:24  <matsjj> 0.0001% + 1 satoshi
 888 2015-10-16T11:29:26  <matsjj> thought big
 889 2015-10-16T11:29:27  <kuzetsa> I need to leave actually (that commute I mentioned. gonna be late)
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 906 2015-10-16T12:14:20  <Cocodude> Hello. What precisely is nTimeSmart in the wallet? A lot of time resyncing is spent trying to figure this out in AddToWallet.
 907 2015-10-16T12:16:49  <Luke-Jr> Cocodude: a reasonable guess at the time a transaction was done
 908 2015-10-16T12:18:02  <Cocodude> Luke-Jr: Thanks. I don't suppose you have a minute to detail to me how it's trying to guess this?
 909 2015-10-16T12:18:12  <Cocodude> The reverse iterator bit of code is very slow on my profiling
 910 2015-10-16T12:19:09  <Luke-Jr> Cocodude: essentially the receive time, unless it's in a block, then the block time; unless whatever time that is is slightly in the past relative to the last transaction in the wallet (in which case it's moved forward)
 911 2015-10-16T12:19:26  <Luke-Jr> (unless it's in a block at the time it is received*)
 912 2015-10-16T12:19:40  <Cocodude> Seems to take ~ 0.01 - 0.1 seconds in this iterator
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 915 2015-10-16T12:20:30  <Cocodude> Luke-Jr: Right, so if we take the assumption that we're rescanning from a zapped wallet, the comparisons to the "last transaction in the wallet" are meaningless?
 916 2015-10-16T12:20:41  <Cocodude> Oh, and these will always be a block too
 917 2015-10-16T12:20:45  <Luke-Jr> Cocodude: no, because you're adding them to the wallet..
 918 2015-10-16T12:21:05  <Luke-Jr> if you add A before B, then you don't necessarily want B's time to be before A's
 919 2015-10-16T12:21:16  <Luke-Jr> and block times are not guaranteed to be forward-moving
 920 2015-10-16T12:21:49  <Cocodude> Luke-Jr: Why are block times not forward moving?
 921 2015-10-16T12:21:55  <Luke-Jr> because they're not.
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 923 2015-10-16T12:22:15  <Cocodude> But if they build upon each other, then they must be, no?
 924 2015-10-16T12:22:24  <Cocodude> (I know I'm wrong, but why?)
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 926 2015-10-16T12:23:16  <aj> Cocodude: a miner's clock could be wrong, so it thinks it's an hour in the future; allowing times to vary a bit handles that fairly gracefully
 927 2015-10-16T12:24:17  <Cocodude> aj: Ah, I can see that being tricky to handle
 928 2015-10-16T12:25:20  <Cocodude> I still don't get why we can't just assume it's the block time for a new transaction though (from a rescan)
 929 2015-10-16T12:25:54  <Cocodude> Can I have an example?
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 932 2015-10-16T12:27:53  <Luke-Jr> Cocodude: because *usually* you see transactions before they're in a block, and in any case you almost never want time to go *backwards* in your wallet's ledger
 933 2015-10-16T12:29:13  <Cocodude> Indeed. I'm thinking of optimising this for the rescan scenario you see
 934 2015-10-16T12:30:07  <Cocodude> If I can shave off this ~0.05 seconds per add, it stacks up to ~2.5 hours of rescan time
 935 2015-10-16T12:30:18  <Cocodude> (for me, with ~180000 keys)
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 939 2015-10-16T12:33:16  <Cocodude> Do you thus agree that, for rescan purposes only, that the wallet txn time = the block time?
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 957 2015-10-16T13:01:26  <Cocodude> Having done some testing with logs of debug statements, I can confirm that it should be the block time (the min(...) is basically min(blocktime, current real time))
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 960 2015-10-16T13:06:28  <Cocodude> Do you think I could say, "if wtx.nTimeReceived > (blockTime + 1 day) then smartTime = blockTime else smartTime = doIteratorStuff"?
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 963 2015-10-16T13:18:32  <Cocodude> Unless I'm mistaken, this code is really inefficient (although there is a comment saying this)
 964 2015-10-16T13:20:54  <Cocodude> I think it 1. Creates an entirely new map based on wtx->nOrderPos, i.e. iterates over every mapWallet entry to do this (this is in OrderTxItems), and 2. Iterates in reverse over this entire list, without ever breaking out (so I think it iterates right back to wallet entry #1)
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1003 2015-10-16T17:06:50  <kanzure> is there a link to a stream for the devcore workshop going on today?
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1010 2015-10-16T17:17:04  <job_> kanzure that'd be awesome
1011 2015-10-16T17:17:16  <job_> I'm in SSF but have to work today :\
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1020 2015-10-16T17:34:25  <alexor> hello
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1023 2015-10-16T17:42:42  <cfields> sdaftuar: ping
1024 2015-10-16T17:44:12  <cfields> sdaftuar: i suspect that the proposal i gave for #221 is daft, but it traces out ok in my head
1025 2015-10-16T17:47:47  <sdaftuar> cfields: i was just about to respond -- someone brought up that suggestion, of sending the message before verack, in yesterday's IRC discussion
1026 2015-10-16T17:48:08  <cfields> sdaftuar: i saw that someone mentioned sending it directly _after_ verack
1027 2015-10-16T17:48:16  <cfields> i didn't see the discussion about before
1028 2015-10-16T17:48:28  <sdaftuar> hm i recall someone being concerned with software not handling messages before a verack
1029 2015-10-16T17:48:35  <sdaftuar> one sec
1030 2015-10-16T17:49:38  <sdaftuar> 15:12 < sipa> can we require the message be sent between version and verack?
1031 2015-10-16T17:49:41  <sdaftuar> 15:13 < sipa> or would this trip up older clients that expect nothing in between
1032 2015-10-16T17:49:44  <sdaftuar> 15:13 < davec> that would probably break older clients
1033 2015-10-16T17:49:47  <sdaftuar> 15:13 < sdaftuar> well we only send it if the recipient's version is high enough
1034 2015-10-16T17:49:50  <sdaftuar> 15:13 < wumpus> I think that will cause potential problems
1035 2015-10-16T17:50:20  <cfields> sdaftuar: 2 things there:
1036 2015-10-16T17:50:22  <sdaftuar> so maybe a compatibility issue with non-core clients?
1037 2015-10-16T17:50:53  <cfields> 1. i believe core can already send out messages in-between those two.
1038 2015-10-16T17:51:29  <cfields> 2. other software is going to have to update to deal with sendheaders anyway. But I suppose that's irrelevant since we don't want to break anything that doesn't
1039 2015-10-16T17:51:35  <cfields> sec, poking at #1
1040 2015-10-16T17:53:00  <sdaftuar> looks like we PushMesage("verack") in the version processing code...
1041 2015-10-16T17:53:21  <sdaftuar> so unless we are sending messages before a version, i don't think #1 is true, maybe there's an edge case i'm missing?
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1044 2015-10-16T17:56:30  <cfields> sdaftuar: ping is the one i'm thinking of, but that might've been a bug in my current code
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1046 2015-10-16T17:59:42  <cfields> ok yea, i had that mixed up
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1055 2015-10-16T18:17:16  <lclc> hi, is there any reason adding sendrawtransaction to the HTTP REST API over GET is a bad idea?
1056 2015-10-16T18:17:31  <lclc> or is the only reason it's not there yet that nobody did it
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1084 2015-10-16T18:53:23  <cfields> sdaftuar: aha, that's what i was thinking of. on the receiving side, after receiving version, it doesn't wait for verack before sending ping/getheaders
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1087 2015-10-16T18:54:51  <sdaftuar> ah
1088 2015-10-16T18:54:56  <sdaftuar> but we will send the verack ourselves first?
1089 2015-10-16T18:58:36  <cfields> yea
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1110 2015-10-16T19:42:39  <sdaftuar> cfields: sorry was afk for a bit.  thinking about this more, since the BIP says this message is totally optional anyway for a peer to respond to, i'm not sure it buys us much to constrain it further (eg by specifying when you're allowed to send it, etc)
1111 2015-10-16T19:43:02  <sdaftuar> seems easier to just specify that in the implementation, and have the wiggle room to change it reasonably within the constraints of a more permissive BIP
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1113 2015-10-16T19:43:33  <sdaftuar> the implementation in #6494 sends a "sendheaders" just after the verack
1114 2015-10-16T19:43:42  <sdaftuar> but accepts a sendheaders from a peer at any time
1115 2015-10-16T19:44:01  <sdaftuar> if there's a reason int he future to ignore sendheaders messages not sent just after the verack, i think we can decide then whether that's what we want to do?
1116 2015-10-16T19:44:07  <sdaftuar> the BIP doesn't require us to honor the request
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1118 2015-10-16T19:48:50  <cfields> sdaftuar: i don't like it at all being unconstrained. But i'm finding it tough to come up with a reason other than "matter of principle" as an argument. And that's not a good argument.
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1120 2015-10-16T19:50:09  <sdaftuar> cfields: i guess it doesn't make you any happier with it if we say additional constraints are implementation-defined? :)
1121 2015-10-16T19:50:39  <cfields> heh. that would help, actually
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1124 2015-10-16T19:50:53  <cfields> at least that's saying "don't rely on any particular behavior here"
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1126 2015-10-16T19:51:12  <sdaftuar> yeah i don't think i'd object to adding language along those lines
1127 2015-10-16T19:51:20  <sdaftuar> the intent is for this to be a totally optional thing
1128 2015-10-16T19:51:44  <sdaftuar> ok, i'll add something and update the pull
1129 2015-10-16T19:53:00  <cfields> sdaftuar: understood. though i would argue that more implementions would be likely to opt-in if they could set up the behavior at node-setup time and be done with it.
1130 2015-10-16T19:54:21  <Luke-Jr> cfields: libcurl, libjansson, libpdcurses, hidapi, libmicrohttpd, libevent, libusb
1131 2015-10-16T19:54:39  <sdaftuar> you mean, if we did something like require these kinds of "capability" flags before the verack, say?
1132 2015-10-16T19:54:54  <sdaftuar> i agree with you that seems cleaner, but that seems like a heavier lift to avoid breaking other people's software :(
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1134 2015-10-16T19:55:47  <sdaftuar> my only concern with changing this to a generic "capabilities" message is that i think we'll run into the same synchronization problems with changing it in the future, that we're running into now with say extending the version message or something
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1136 2015-10-16T19:56:13  <sdaftuar> (and i don't have a use case in mind for something in the future, but presumably other people do)
1137 2015-10-16T19:56:29  <treehug88> Is it valid to use an output with 0 satoshis as an input to a transaction? I think the answer is "no" but I'm making sure for 'reasons'
1138 2015-10-16T19:56:50  <Luke-Jr> treehug88: it's fine
1139 2015-10-16T19:57:01  <Luke-Jr> you can't create them, though
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1141 2015-10-16T19:57:24  <treehug88> can't create what, a 0 satoshi output?
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1143 2015-10-16T19:58:01  <Luke-Jr> right
1144 2015-10-16T19:58:06  <treehug88> great, thanks
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1148 2015-10-16T19:58:44  <morcos> Luke-Jr: huh?  you can create 0 satoshi outputs
1149 2015-10-16T19:59:15  <sdaftuar> i think he's saying they're non-standard?
1150 2015-10-16T19:59:30  <Luke-Jr> morcos: per the consensus rules, yes, but afaik not a single node considers them policy-okay, and they're almost certain to violate the social agreement
1151 2015-10-16T20:00:45  <treehug88> Luke-Jr, morcos : so technically they could be used as inputs to a transaction too (except for 'standard transaction' rejections)?
1152 2015-10-16T20:01:03  <aj> it fails IsDust, right?
1153 2015-10-16T20:01:07  <morcos> treehug88: that i'm not sure about, but don't see why not
1154 2015-10-16T20:01:29  <morcos> dust is also just policy
1155 2015-10-16T20:01:35  <Luke-Jr> treehug88: it can be used as inputs cleanly, afaik
1156 2015-10-16T20:02:00  <Luke-Jr> I don't know of any policy code that prevents using them as inputs.
1157 2015-10-16T20:02:23  <maaku> IsDust is only checked for outputs
1158 2015-10-16T20:02:35  <treehug88> ok, so the summary is - you can create 0 satoshi outputs, and use them as inputs to another transaction, but (many) miners will reject 0 satoshi output transactions as being non-standard?
1159 2015-10-16T20:02:56  <treehug88> ... and it's dust
1160 2015-10-16T20:03:27  <morcos> that sounds right to me
1161 2015-10-16T20:03:45  <treehug88> thanks morcos and everyone
1162 2015-10-16T20:04:13  <aj> treehug88: also, most nodes won't relay them, so miners won't even see them (i think)
1163 2015-10-16T20:04:27  <treehug88> aj sounds legit, thanks again
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1165 2015-10-16T20:06:29  <cfields> sdaftuar: sorry, phone, back in a few
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1215 2015-10-16T21:59:54  <cfields> sdaftuar: understood and agreed on all counts
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1276 2015-10-16T23:34:39  <PRab> Anyone have any ideas about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6840? I'm still stuck.
1277 2015-10-16T23:35:01  <PRab> Oops, I meant to put that in #bitcoin.
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