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18 2015-10-19T00:41:24 <bedeho> is dust limit a consensus rule?
19 2015-10-19T00:41:38 <phantomcircuit> no
20 2015-10-19T00:41:55 <gmaxwell> bedeho: Can you please explain why you're asking?
21 2015-10-19T00:42:03 <gmaxwell> It's a weird question that you'd even think that.
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26 2015-10-19T00:44:02 <bedeho> gmaxwell, will a block with a tx with a dust output be rejected? why is that weird question?
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29 2015-10-19T00:44:49 <gmaxwell> bedeho: because the definition of dust is not fixed, it _cannot_ be a consensus rule.
30 2015-10-19T00:45:03 <gmaxwell> So no, as phantomcircuit said, it isn't and a block will never be rejected on that basis.
31 2015-10-19T00:45:47 <bedeho> I must be misunderstanding what the dust test checks then, I thought it just checks if the #satoshies was below some magic number?
32 2015-10-19T00:46:53 <gmaxwell> bedeho: sort of, it checks if its below some small multiple of the minimum feerate a node would relay as a non-free transaction.
33 2015-10-19T00:47:16 <bedeho> ah ok
34 2015-10-19T00:47:17 <gmaxwell> (In other words "this pays so little, that spending it would be a loss for the reciever, according to my current behavior")
35 2015-10-19T00:47:38 <bedeho> good to know
36 2015-10-19T00:47:43 <phantomcircuit> bedeho, there are two classes of rules; consensus rules (ie the block is invalid) and policy (ie you refuse to relay those transactions)
37 2015-10-19T00:47:46 <gmaxwell> (and it uses a very permissive estimate of what would be a loss)
38 2015-10-19T00:47:51 <phantomcircuit> the dust limit is a policy not a consensus rule
39 2015-10-19T00:48:19 <bedeho> yes, I get that, I thought the test was not related to relay policy
40 2015-10-19T00:48:22 <bedeho> but thank you
41 2015-10-19T00:48:27 <bedeho> why were those two things even linked?
42 2015-10-19T00:48:31 <gmaxwell> anything to do with fees and amounts is policy; as embedding something with arbritary economic scaling (price of bitcoin) in consensus would be crazy.
43 2015-10-19T00:48:50 <bedeho> yes thats a good point
44 2015-10-19T00:49:15 <gmaxwell> bedeho: for the rational I just gave-- that no fee paying spend of it would even get relayed by the node without causing a loss for the spender... (e.g it would be a bad idea to ever spend the txout)
45 2015-10-19T00:49:41 <gmaxwell> which means unending utxo set bloat then its better for people to just forget about or delete wallets than spend all the coins in them.
46 2015-10-19T00:52:04 <bedeho> hmm, but just because you wouldnt relay a spend doesnt mean someone else wouldnt mine it, at which point it would not bloat your utxo when you see the block with that spend?
47 2015-10-19T00:53:23 <gmaxwell> bedeho: you wouldn't relay a non-funds losing spend, so you don't relay the thing creating the mess the spend wouldn't clean up.. Other people might relay/mine both.
48 2015-10-19T00:53:38 <gmaxwell> It matches them up, if no one will relay/mine the spend, then no one will relay/mine the bloat.
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50 2015-10-19T00:54:31 <gmaxwell> (well kind of-- it's very permissive, and allows outputs a significant amount smaller than it should; "just in case")
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53 2015-10-19T00:57:42 <bedeho> I see, thank you.
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147 2015-10-19T04:18:45 <kyuupichan> Why do the mining pools continue to add txs to blocks that pay almost no fees (0.0001 BTC) and create dozens or hundreds of dust UTXOs. I don't understand why they persist in doing this.
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150 2015-10-19T04:22:46 <kuzetsa> kyuupichan: some of the miners feel that the "dust" UTXOs being created aren't "way too cheapskate" enough to add (price per kilobyte) to the block chain to be considered spammy or whatever
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155 2015-10-19T04:39:27 <kyuupichan> kuzetsa: May be so, but 0.0001 BTC seems cheap to create > 100 utxos. Apparently they don't care about chain size.
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157 2015-10-19T04:39:59 <kyuupichan> IMO creation of new UTXOs is underpriced
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172 2015-10-19T05:35:37 <Luke-Jr> kyuupichan: I don't know how many miners care about Bitcoin anymore.
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185 2015-10-19T06:47:21 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, they are profit maximizing of course
186 2015-10-19T06:47:29 <phantomcircuit> exactly as any sane person would expect
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195 2015-10-19T07:06:58 <kyuupichan> phantomcircuit: I doubt scraping 0.0001 BTC to make your block 20-50k bigger is a good long-term profit-maximising plan
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199 2015-10-19T07:12:52 <sturles> kyuupichan: No sane pools do this. Only some Chineese pools that I know of. Don't use them.
200 2015-10-19T07:13:10 <kyuupichan> sturles: Slush seems to do it too
201 2015-10-19T07:13:18 <sturles> Hmm.
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203 2015-10-19T07:14:44 <zexos> If any developers with the knowledge of crypto daemons, php, sql etc are interested in creating a platform (blackhat project) that has proven profitability in the past (proof available), I am looking for a partnership. Previous partner is no longer around, need new partner to carry on with these projects. PM if interested, i'll give you contact info there.
204 2015-10-19T07:14:52 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, what makes you think they're optimizing for long term?
205 2015-10-19T07:15:13 <kyuupichan> phantomcircuit: It's true in the short term too
206 2015-10-19T07:16:16 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, no it's not
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210 2015-10-19T07:21:02 <kyuupichan> phantomcircuit: Oh, so what's breakeven additional space for 0.0001 BTC according to you?
211 2015-10-19T07:25:29 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, roughly zero when you're connected to >50% of the network over a lan
212 2015-10-19T07:26:02 <zexos> phantom
213 2015-10-19T07:26:04 <zexos> whats your problem?
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215 2015-10-19T07:27:52 <phantomcircuit> zexos, you're a criminal
216 2015-10-19T07:28:04 <zexos> nope
217 2015-10-19T07:28:10 <zexos> found a loophole
218 2015-10-19T07:28:14 <zexos> and i am exploiting it
219 2015-10-19T07:28:53 <phantomcircuit> a loophole in....
220 2015-10-19T07:29:08 <phantomcircuit> there's virtually no chance you can answer that question without you being a criminal
221 2015-10-19T07:29:10 <phantomcircuit> !ops
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223 2015-10-19T07:29:48 <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, ^
224 2015-10-19T07:29:54 <zexos> actually it isn't a loophole
225 2015-10-19T07:30:01 <zexos> simply stating the obvious in terms and conditions
226 2015-10-19T07:30:03 <kyuupichan> phantomcircuit: Hard to take you seriously. Also given your scaling bitcoin talk.
227 2015-10-19T07:30:03 <zexos> which no one reads
228 2015-10-19T07:30:10 <zexos> that is the loophole
229 2015-10-19T07:30:17 <zexos> it is completely legal
230 2015-10-19T07:30:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o gmaxwell
231 2015-10-19T07:30:24 <phantomcircuit> first it's blackhat, then you're selling black hats, then it's a scam, now it's a loophole, BUT WAIT NO ITS NOT!
232 2015-10-19T07:30:29 <zexos> so now i say [fuck off] to you :)
233 2015-10-19T07:30:32 *** gmaxwell sets mode: +b *!*@gateway/web/freenode/ip.27.33.19.55
234 2015-10-19T07:30:32 *** zexos was kicked by gmaxwell (zexos)
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236 2015-10-19T07:30:41 <phantomcircuit> lol timing
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239 2015-10-19T07:33:25 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, btw i've seen lots of nonsense from that datacenter so i banned it's entire range in #bitcoin
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241 2015-10-19T07:37:12 <phantomcircuit> kyuupichan, uhh my talk was entirely serious
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243 2015-10-19T07:38:09 <phantomcircuit> if you disagree with the results please present your own findings
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246 2015-10-19T07:44:05 <phantomcircuit> thought so..
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382 2015-10-19T11:07:58 <jtimon> CodeShark: let's discuss C API (the currently implemented option) vs C++ API for libconsensus here
383 2015-10-19T11:09:08 <jtimon> it was already decided (and partially implemented) that a C API was simplest for some languages to interface with
384 2015-10-19T11:09:39 <jtimon> I'm sorry that you missed that discussion, but I really see no good arguments in favor of making it a C++ API instead...
385 2015-10-19T11:09:39 <Diablo-D3> I agree with that decision and I dont even know what libconsensus is
386 2015-10-19T11:09:39 <CodeShark> While I agree that it's easier for some languages to interface with a C API, I don't think that's what's most important right now for Bitcoin Core
387 2015-10-19T11:09:48 <Diablo-D3> and btw
388 2015-10-19T11:09:52 <Diablo-D3> you CAN have a c++ api
389 2015-10-19T11:09:57 <Diablo-D3> just call the c one with it
390 2015-10-19T11:10:17 <jtimon> Diablo-D3: currently libconsensus is just one C function: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/bitcoinconsensus.h#L56
391 2015-10-19T11:10:21 <CodeShark> it's a huge stylistic change that distracts from far more important issues of dependencies, a layered architecture, and better code organization
392 2015-10-19T11:10:45 <CodeShark> nobody is really asking for a C libconsensus - this is for our own use. we can always write C wrappers
393 2015-10-19T11:10:56 <Diablo-D3> jtimon: lol
394 2015-10-19T11:11:24 <jtimon> CodeShark: currently it's not so huge, really (unless we make it harder like you are doing with #6816)
395 2015-10-19T11:11:26 <CodeShark> I'm not opposed to eventually supporting a C API - I just think trying to force a C API right now is getting the priorities backwards
396 2015-10-19T11:12:23 <jtimon> CodeShark: when we discussed what the API for libconsensus should be, we decided for C, at least cfields_ sipa BlueMatt and wumpus were involved in that discussion
397 2015-10-19T11:12:41 <Diablo-D3> yeah and they all probably said C for the same reason I did
398 2015-10-19T11:12:47 <Diablo-D3> if you want to have wrappers in other languaes
399 2015-10-19T11:12:53 <Diablo-D3> C is literally your only choice
400 2015-10-19T11:13:23 <CodeShark> it's like deciding on what paint color you're going to use before you've got solid foundations for your house
401 2015-10-19T11:13:41 <jtimon> Diablo-D3: exactly, simpler wrappers in other languages was precisely the main reason to decide for C
402 2015-10-19T11:13:44 <btcdrak> jtimon: I also think it's not the right time to be trying to marshall every PR to conform to something that is not yet even created or finalised. When we work on libconsensus in earnest that is the time for refactoring.
403 2015-10-19T11:13:49 <CodeShark> API wrappers and language bindings can always be added to a good architecture - it's VERY hard to go in the other direction
404 2015-10-19T11:14:20 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: uh, wrong
405 2015-10-19T11:14:25 <Diablo-D3> you cant add wrappers to c++
406 2015-10-19T11:14:54 <Diablo-D3> you clearly have never looked at how the c++ abi works
407 2015-10-19T11:15:07 <CodeShark> you're missing the point completely
408 2015-10-19T11:15:16 <Diablo-D3> a shitload of wrappers in other languages write their wrappers in c and just call the c++ from them
409 2015-10-19T11:15:19 <Diablo-D3> which is idiotic as hell
410 2015-10-19T11:15:23 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: not at all
411 2015-10-19T11:15:29 <btcdrak> jtimon: it's hard enough to get code reviewed as it is, without complicating it with not yet existing libconsensus nits.
412 2015-10-19T11:15:49 <Diablo-D3> your argument is "with well written code, it doesnt matter how big of a mistake you make early on, it can be fixed"
413 2015-10-19T11:16:09 <btcdrak> jtimon: I think there is a time and a place for it, but that it isnt now. We havent even agreed a highlevel plan for refactoring yet.
414 2015-10-19T11:16:11 <Diablo-D3> my argument is "its easier to just not make a mistake in the first place"
415 2015-10-19T11:16:11 <CodeShark> ok, if you want to believe that's what I said go ahead...I am not going to argue this
416 2015-10-19T11:16:15 <CodeShark> I have other stuff to do
417 2015-10-19T11:16:39 <Diablo-D3> CodeShark: okay so, which one of us has experience in a dozen different languages, and has made a shitton of money as a professional programmer?
418 2015-10-19T11:16:41 <Diablo-D3> hint: its me
419 2015-10-19T11:16:51 <jtimon> btcdrak: I believe I was relatively close to a finalised libconsensus (with a C API) in March (see #5946), but it will never happen if we keep undoing the work that's been already merged
420 2015-10-19T11:16:53 <Diablo-D3> I agree with any decision that involves making a highly portable library in C.
421 2015-10-19T11:17:02 <Diablo-D3> you dont even need to use C for the whole library
422 2015-10-19T11:17:05 <Diablo-D3> just for the public functions
423 2015-10-19T11:17:13 <btcdrak> Diablo-D3: that;s a really poor argument, "I made lots of money so I'm right"
424 2015-10-19T11:17:29 <Diablo-D3> let me rephrase
425 2015-10-19T11:17:29 <btcdrak> Diablo-D3: let's not degenerate into logical fallacies please.
426 2015-10-19T11:17:31 <jtimon> I'm working on a document with a detailed plan for libconsensus (with pictures, as suggested by CodeShark)
427 2015-10-19T11:17:39 <Diablo-D3> the bitcoin community paid me a lot of money because Im right.
428 2015-10-19T11:18:17 <jtimon> Diablo-D3: that's still an argument of authority (fallacy)
429 2015-10-19T11:19:03 <Diablo-D3> okay fine, Ive written an absolute fuckton of C, and Ive also written wrappers of libraries in other languages
430 2015-10-19T11:19:19 <Diablo-D3> calling anything but C, well, its easier to just commit suicide, less pain too
431 2015-10-19T11:19:30 <jtimon> Diablo-D3: and we don't need fallacies because we have the right arguments for a C API instead of a C++ API (so far I haven't heard any valid argument from CodeShark in favor of a C++ API fr libconsensus)
432 2015-10-19T11:19:52 <btcdrak> jtimon: we are coming towards the end of the 0.12 development cycle, I think we should make a decision and enforce them after we branch 0.12 off. Until then, let's not get in the way of progress. I find all this libconsensus stuff very distracting from getting things done.
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434 2015-10-19T11:20:37 <jtimon> btcdrak: I think not having consensus code currently encapsulated is a great barrier for progress
435 2015-10-19T11:21:08 <Diablo-D3> jtimon: the thing is, you COULD have native c++ and a c++ api... but just also have a built in c api, ie, the c++ code is written with the c api in mind
436 2015-10-19T11:21:24 <Diablo-D3> jtimon: a few c++ libraries have done this
437 2015-10-19T11:21:43 <jtimon> you can have c++ implementation and c API, right (that's what we currently have)
438 2015-10-19T11:21:59 <CodeShark> I already offered to help with a C API if it turns out there's demand for it - but I don't want any distractions from getting this stuff merged right now
439 2015-10-19T11:22:02 <Diablo-D3> as long as the c api is a first class citizen, you're fine
440 2015-10-19T11:22:03 <jtimon> but #6816 is not done with a C API in mind
441 2015-10-19T11:22:13 <CodeShark> I don't think I need a better argument than that
442 2015-10-19T11:22:17 <Diablo-D3> but it means the c++ api cant do anything magic
443 2015-10-19T11:22:34 <Diablo-D3> the c api HAS to be able to do everything the c++ api can with the same amount of effort
444 2015-10-19T11:22:43 <jtimon> CodeShark: "i there's demand" there's currently some users of libconsensus and they're using the C API (the only one it has!!)
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447 2015-10-19T11:25:54 <jtimon> anyway, I'll focus on my document and finishing libconsensus on my own branch, so that people can't say " is not yet even created or finalised" anymore
448 2015-10-19T11:26:11 <jtimon> it could have been finalized long ago if there was more interest in it
449 2015-10-19T11:27:09 <jtimon> when I publish my document and still no code movements are done before 0.12, I will start my own fork
450 2015-10-19T11:27:30 <jtimon> maybe before 6816 if it gets merged as is
451 2015-10-19T11:27:57 <jtimon> mhmm, maybe I should create a libconsensus-friendly alternative to 6816 myself...
452 2015-10-19T11:29:41 <jtimon> given that CodeShark doesn't want to follow my suggestion of using just a static-sized array of a methodless struct in Consensus::Params
453 2015-10-19T11:29:57 <CodeShark> jtimon: have you even looked at the SoftForkDeployments class?
454 2015-10-19T11:30:49 <jtimon> CodeShark: yes, have you even looked at #5995 ?
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457 2015-10-19T11:37:15 <CodeShark> jtimon, I'll help you with all this refactoring stuff after 0.12. For now please don't let these nits get in the way of deploying stuff we really need
458 2015-10-19T11:37:34 <btcdrak> ^
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460 2015-10-19T11:40:00 <btcdrak> jtimon: there's a good compromise, let's not get overly worried until the libconsensus plan is finalised, and you have a promise from CodeSkark he will help you a lot with the refactoring necessary come the time. Meantime, let's really focus on getting stuff we need now, merged.
461 2015-10-19T11:41:11 <btcdrak> jtimon: I know all this has been quite frustrating for you for a good year regarding this stuff, but there is definitely light at the end of the tunnel once we have a set plan for post 0.12.
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525 2015-10-19T14:19:03 <wumpus> we all had a frustrating year, can't wait for it to end...
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537 2015-10-19T14:35:44 <btcdrak> wumpus: well at least we're getting our momentum back.
538 2015-10-19T14:36:08 <jtimon> CodeShark: thanks for the offer, but my goal is not to delay versionbits. If you think that waht I'm asking for is too hard, I will try to do it myself using your code
539 2015-10-19T14:36:44 <jtimon> but so far you didn't said it is too hard, just that having a C API instead of a C++ API was a mistake in libconsensus in your opinion
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541 2015-10-19T14:38:15 <jtimon> btcdrak: the plan I''m working on has 6 phases and I still have a little hope that the first (mostly move-only) phase can be merged before 0.12 is branched
542 2015-10-19T14:38:24 <CodeShark> jtimon: I don't think a C API ultimately is a bad thing - I just think now is not the time for it. I'd be happy to help you with all the libconsensus refactoring stuff after 0.12
543 2015-10-19T14:39:23 <btcdrak> jtimon: I think the IRC meeting was pretty clear that there would be no big changes this late into the release cycle. We'll get a refactoring window right after branching.
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545 2015-10-19T14:40:06 <jtimon> btcdrak: I have had a plan for libconsenus for very long, it's just that I haven't been able to articulate it correctly (and people have failed to review the relevant PRs, ask the relevant questions and participate in the relevant ml threads), meanwhile we can slightly modify code that has not been merged yet to avoid creating more unnecessary work in the future
546 2015-10-19T14:40:17 <btcdrak> jtimon: there's just no way to justify big code moves at the end of a release cycle, it's really dangerous no matter how careful we are (and I'm pretty liberal minded when it comes to moveonly commits).
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548 2015-10-19T14:40:34 <jtimon> CodeShark: "it's not the time for it" please, again libconsensus' API is currently C!!!!
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550 2015-10-19T14:40:47 <CodeShark> jtimon: I think you're overestimating the amount of work required to create a C API and underestimating the amount of work to release this stuff if we insist on a C API right now
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553 2015-10-19T14:41:44 <jtimon> btcdrak: those movements before forking 0.12 are much better for anyone rebasing from release to release than doing the same changes after 0.12 is released (on the master branch)
554 2015-10-19T14:41:50 <btcdrak> jtimon: the meeting we had about it was really really helpful for your goal because it got you criterion for others to agree on. Things will go more smoothly for you, but definitely we need a merge window where we can have more disruptive changes and then let the dust settle for the rest of the development cycle.
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556 2015-10-19T14:42:23 <jtimon> CodeShark: I'm not asking for a complete C API now, I'm just asking for not making it harder than it currently is for later
557 2015-10-19T14:42:31 <btcdrak> jtimon: I would agree with you, but I'm I very much doubt it will happen. If I were you I would not hold up any hope for that.
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560 2015-10-19T14:43:24 <btcdrak> jtimon: but I dont think any software project of this magnitude would tolerate big refactoring at the end of a release cycle.
561 2015-10-19T14:43:28 <jtimon> CodeShark: and I think you're overestimating the disadvantages of following my suggestion (even though you have not told them to me, besides vague arguments regardging readability and "ease of development")
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563 2015-10-19T14:44:07 <CodeShark> jtimon: it's an obstacle to getting this stuff deployed which doesn't help functionality nor review in any way whatsoever...and we can always do it later
564 2015-10-19T14:44:31 <jtimon> CodeShark: everything can be done later, including versionbits
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566 2015-10-19T14:44:59 <btcdrak> jtimon: and if we have a planned time when it can happen, and we know nothing else will get merged except refactoring, then you'll have all hands on deck. You cant rub against the grain and not expect friction. The plan we discussed at the first IRC meeting seems more palatable for everyone
567 2015-10-19T14:45:03 <jtimon> the thing is, we're doing versionbits now, it's not merged yet. we still can modify it to make things easier later
568 2015-10-19T14:45:12 <btcdrak> jtimon: absolutely not, versionbits is a huge priority
569 2015-10-19T14:46:27 <jtimon> btcdrak: we've suggested many "right times for refactors" but this "nothing else will get merged except refactoring," has never happen and I doubt that it will ever happen (and I personally don't think it's the best way to do things)
570 2015-10-19T14:47:01 <CodeShark> please trust me on this one, jtimon - I think this way is easier overall...and I will definitely help you with the refactoring after 0.12. I know it's very frustrating to have PRs sitting for months without making any inroads - I'll help you put together an effective plan
571 2015-10-19T14:47:05 <btcdrak> versionbits will remove a huge amount of friction to deploying softforks and it looks like there are a lot of things cuing up, stuff we really need in order to improve functionality. libconsensus is very important long term, but it's not more important than enabling the protocol to be extended efficiently
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573 2015-10-19T14:47:27 <jtimon> CodeShark: can you please tell me the disadvantages of my suggestion in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816#issuecomment-148043500 ?
574 2015-10-19T14:47:57 <btcdrak> jtimon: CodeSkark is a man of his word, he will help, and I think you'll need as many hands and eyes looking at refactoring as you can get.
575 2015-10-19T14:48:08 <jtimon> CodeShark: " I think this way is easier overal" and I disagree, please trust me on this one and follow my suggestion
576 2015-10-19T14:48:48 <jtimon> I'm not asking for help later, I'm asking to get answers to my review of #6816
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578 2015-10-19T14:49:44 <jtimon> btcdrak: libconsensus (specially the encapsulation it requires) is a huge priority that will remove a lot friction too
579 2015-10-19T14:51:17 <jtimon> CodeShark: if you can't answer that question but you still reject to follow my suggestion I can simply create an alternative to #6816 so people can compare (even though it may be hard to undesrtand why my version will be more future-proof with rewards to completing libconsensus)
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581 2015-10-19T14:53:58 <CodeShark> jtimon: I wrote a class called SoftForkDeployments that handles dynamic addition of new soft fork deployments which makes it very clean to initialize in CChainParams. If we want to put that behind a C API, we can always expose it as a regular function and hide the singleton objects behind the C API
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583 2015-10-19T14:54:32 <CodeShark> point is nothing outside of the consensus stuff should have deep knowledge of this stucture except what's needed to initialize it
584 2015-10-19T14:54:45 <jtimon> CodeShark: in my suggestion, Consensus::Params would be still initialized very cleanly in chainparams.cpp
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586 2015-10-19T14:55:18 <jtimon> CodeShark: when you say singleton you mean globals, and no, globals are not library friendly
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588 2015-10-19T14:55:42 <jtimon> not for libconsensus nor for lib-bitcoin (if we ever get to that)
589 2015-10-19T14:56:34 <CodeShark> but point is SoftForkDeployments does a whole heck of a lot more than just hold an array or a vector - it has high level accessor methods that I use copiously elsewhere...and I don't want to expose the individual SoftFork objects as simple structs because it breaks all the safety measures afforded by the encapsulation
590 2015-10-19T14:57:19 <CodeShark> I tried to make the integration as simple as possible - and designed these classes accordingly
591 2015-10-19T14:57:36 <CodeShark> you're asking me to sacrifice all that to conform to some spec for something that doesn't even exist yet
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593 2015-10-19T14:57:47 <jtimon> CodeShark: you can encapsulate things behind functions just as easily as you can encapsulate it behind classes, remember abstract data types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_data_type ? those are older than classes
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596 2015-10-19T14:58:31 <CodeShark> and we can do that after 0.12
597 2015-10-19T14:58:37 <CodeShark> what's the rush to do it now?
598 2015-10-19T14:58:47 <jtimon> CodeShark: can you at least understand that what you think it's "as simple as possible" may actually not be "as simple as possible" or "easier overall"
599 2015-10-19T14:58:48 <CodeShark> doesn't add any functionality, complicates review, delays deployment
600 2015-10-19T14:58:49 <jtimon> ?
601 2015-10-19T14:59:19 <davec> yeah
602 2015-10-19T14:59:47 <jtimon> "doesn't add any functionality", agree "complicates review" disagree, "delays deployment" not much and not in total (doing it wrong now will make libconsensus harder to complete later)
603 2015-10-19T15:01:00 <jtimon> CodeShark: the rush is we're reviewing #6816 now and we cannot change its commits once it's merged (we can fix newly introduced libconsensus-unfriendly changes later, but with new commtis)
604 2015-10-19T15:01:44 <jtimon> still no disadvantages of using my suggestion besides "I think it's simpler this way"
605 2015-10-19T15:02:39 <CodeShark> I think it's a LOT simpler overall...and will take less time and effort in the long run to do it this way. I think that's a pretty good reason
606 2015-10-19T15:03:14 <CodeShark> I told you, I'll help you with the refactor stuff during a dedicated time window when we look specifically at that
607 2015-10-19T15:03:26 <CodeShark> I don't think it's a good idea to mix the refactor stuff with this PR
608 2015-10-19T15:04:25 <CodeShark> I don't think it will add that much more work on your end to do it this way - perhaps what's bugging you is the friction you're experiencing with others
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614 2015-10-19T15:10:20 <jtimon> "I think it's a LOT simpler overall" exactly, you think, and I disagree
615 2015-10-19T15:10:38 <jtimon> " I'll help you with the refactor stuff" thanks again but that's orthogonal
616 2015-10-19T15:11:12 <jtimon> CodeShark: I'm not suggesting to mux refactor stuff with this PR, read my suggestion again: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816#issuecomment-148043500
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618 2015-10-19T15:12:34 <jtimon> CodeShark: what's bugging me is making things harder for libconsensus than they're currently are when we can chose a more libconsensus-friendly alternative for free
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620 2015-10-19T15:13:09 <jtimon> honestly, if you're doing it like this I would even prefer that you don't touch Consensus::Params and use CChainParams and its globals instead
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622 2015-10-19T15:14:14 <jtimon> anyway, it seems this discussion is going nowhere and I will have to implement my suggestion myself
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625 2015-10-19T15:14:55 <jtimon> it will delay my libconsensus plan document further but who cares (apart from me)?
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633 2015-10-19T15:22:53 <jtimon> CodeShark: could you do that? move softForkDeployments from Consensus::Params to CChainParams ?
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637 2015-10-19T15:24:15 <jtimon> exposing VerifyTx may end up being easier to do than exposing VerifyHeader after all and having that libconsensus-unfriendly code in consensus/params may be a barrier to expose VerifyTx
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644 2015-10-19T15:35:33 <jtimon> CodeShark: for example, how can introducing a new unnecessary global to later remove it be "simpler overall" than just not introducing new globals and not having to remove them later?
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647 2015-10-19T15:36:21 <jtimon> instead of helping me remove globals later, why don't you avoid introducing them now?
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649 2015-10-19T15:37:20 <jtimon> or introduce the global in main, but don't use it as a global within consensus code
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735 2015-10-19T16:33:40 <waxwing> why is the 'basic' multiplication (in ecmult_impl.h) function of the form 'aB +cD', and then the tweak_mult is used for doing a single multiply? (in secp256k1). i guess it's just about optimizations? just curious.
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741 2015-10-19T16:35:13 <gmaxwell> waxwing: not just aB + cD but aG + cD -- one point is fixed the other is variable. And the reason is because multiexp is considerably faster than doing seperate multiplies and adding them.
742 2015-10-19T16:35:28 <gmaxwell> waxwing: as they can share doubling work.
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744 2015-10-19T16:36:22 <waxwing> ok, thanks. and yes, good point, G not anything.
745 2015-10-19T16:36:57 <gmaxwell> because 2*x + 2*y = 2*(x+y) (distributive property)
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747 2015-10-19T16:37:09 <gmaxwell> and G is fixed because it uses a precomputed table for multiples of G.
748 2015-10-19T16:37:27 <waxwing> yes. alles klar.
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752 2015-10-19T16:38:31 <gmaxwell> waxwing: there is a #secp256k1 for the library, incidentally.
753 2015-10-19T16:38:41 <waxwing> oh, will do, cheers
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760 2015-10-19T16:48:36 <cfields_> jtimon_: yes, we agreed on an external C API for libbitcoinconsensus. That has nothing to do with what it's written in though.
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769 2015-10-19T16:58:28 <jtimon_> cfields_: yes, they are related, Params::Consensus will be much harder to be C-API-compatible after introducing Consensus::VersionBits::SoftForkDeployments softForkDeployments in it
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771 2015-10-19T16:59:25 <jtimon_> cfields_: also CodeShark used "libconsensus' API should be C++" as an argument to avoid following my suggestion in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816#issuecomment-148043500
772 2015-10-19T16:59:38 <CodeShark> no
773 2015-10-19T16:59:43 <CodeShark> that's not the argument I gave at all
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776 2015-10-19T17:00:20 <jtimon_> <CodeShark> and nobody is asking for a C libconsensus right now
777 2015-10-19T17:00:20 <jtimon_> <CodeShark> the main user will be the core devs...who are now using C++
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779 2015-10-19T17:00:48 <CodeShark> that's actually an entirely separate issue we can delve into after 0.12
780 2015-10-19T17:01:07 <CodeShark> fwiw, I don't mind so much maintaining g_blockRuleIndex in main...although I'd much prefer to move ALL of those globals to a unit that can manage them with strict accessors
781 2015-10-19T17:01:17 <CodeShark> I really don't like including main.h anywhere, though
782 2015-10-19T17:01:21 <jtimon_> but if you agree now that libconsensus' API should be a C API (what it currently is), then we can move on and forget that part of our discussion
783 2015-10-19T17:01:39 <CodeShark> there is no libconsensus, really
784 2015-10-19T17:02:07 <CodeShark> but anyhow...
785 2015-10-19T17:02:14 <CodeShark> I'm willing to defer that discussion
786 2015-10-19T17:02:14 <jtimon_> CodeShark: I dislike including main.h anywhere too, I really like to remove includes of main.h, but you said yourself that we shouldn't mix refactor changes with versionbits
787 2015-10-19T17:02:31 <jtimon_> CodeShark: yes, there is a libconsensus
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789 2015-10-19T17:02:46 <jtimon_> it's not complete but it exists, please stop saying there's no libconsensus
790 2015-10-19T17:04:10 <jtimon_> CodeShark: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/bitcoinconsensus.h#L56 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/Makefile.am#L387 what is that if not the current libconsensus (with a C API) ?
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794 2015-10-19T17:05:26 <jtimon_> CodeShark: I would prefer to just remove the use of globals completely, but I wouldn't complain about moving them to globals/server.o, globals/common.o etc in the meantime
795 2015-10-19T17:05:38 <CodeShark> right
796 2015-10-19T17:06:02 <jtimon_> CodeShark: globals are bad with or without "strict accessors"
797 2015-10-19T17:06:14 <CodeShark> well, they are singletons, strictly speaking
798 2015-10-19T17:06:46 <jtimon_> not really, they are globals, but terminology...
799 2015-10-19T17:07:13 <CodeShark> accessors at least can make sure they don't get strangely modified in some random place
800 2015-10-19T17:07:40 <CodeShark> the point is to avoid side effects
801 2015-10-19T17:08:05 <jtimon_> unless you can use the accessor from any random place just like you could use the global directly, but whatever...
802 2015-10-19T17:08:28 <CodeShark> but the accessors can ensure internal structure consistency or make it read-only
803 2015-10-19T17:08:45 <CodeShark> or allow you to add tracers
804 2015-10-19T17:09:05 <CodeShark> all in all, debuging is a hell of a lot easier
805 2015-10-19T17:09:06 <jtimon_> yes, and passing the variables directly anbd explicitly to the functions that need them is the way to remove the globals, not "strict accessors"
806 2015-10-19T17:09:31 <CodeShark> I don't disagree
807 2015-10-19T17:09:42 <jtimon_> function parameters can also be read-only (see my changes to your patch)
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809 2015-10-19T17:10:47 <jtimon_> for example https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commit/6971b23a47840842f1e67f065d77ff13893c19a4#diff-5d812cf49e92aa2ce97088ba68121c4cR30
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811 2015-10-19T17:11:40 <jtimon_> CodeShark: if you don't disagree, please don't use globals inside new functions/methods (like your patch is currently doing)
812 2015-10-19T17:12:41 <jtimon_> for old methods...well, we can fix that later. But introducing things that you already know you will want to change and in which way makes no sense IMO
813 2015-10-19T17:13:09 <CodeShark> jtimon_: I fully agree with getting rid of the globals and passing stuff as parameters
814 2015-10-19T17:15:24 <jtimon_> CodeShark: Great, feel free to squash or use my code the way you think it's best
815 2015-10-19T17:17:35 <jtimon_> I will keep working on making your patch more libconsensus-friendly (without changing functionality) before it is merged
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875 2015-10-19T18:28:24 <warren> jgarzik: you there?
876 2015-10-19T18:28:26 <warren> jgarzik: which GPG key is current? I have exmulti.com and bitpay.com
877 2015-10-19T18:28:30 <warren> I'll just send it to wumpus for now and he'll send it to whoever he thinks should have it.
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897 2015-10-19T18:50:34 <jgarzik> warren, jgarzik@pobox.com, the one on bitcoin.org & has been used in open source for 20 years :)
898 2015-10-19T18:50:45 <jgarzik> warren, bitpay.com one works also
899 2015-10-19T18:51:47 <jgarzik> warren, Cross-signed security envelope: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1074
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927 2015-10-19T19:36:39 <jcorgan> warren: commit 7d325b9de is signed by the right key
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1037 2015-10-19T22:28:40 <warren> jgarzik: where is the key on bitcoin.org? I looked for your key in bitcoin source https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/gitian-downloader but it's missing here
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1042 2015-10-19T22:32:24 <jgarzik> warren, This PR gives the link https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1074
1043 2015-10-19T22:33:07 <jtimon_> has anyone else been able to reproduce the memory losses issue? is there an issue for it on github?
1044 2015-10-19T22:33:32 <EagleTM> jtimon_: memory losses? like large mempool?
1045 2015-10-19T22:35:19 <gmaxwell> jtimon_: the people going on about memory leaks on the list are very likely confused.
1046 2015-10-19T22:35:41 <gmaxwell> they're seeing mempool bloat and the fact that prior to (git master) the mempool stats command didn't report overheads.
1047 2015-10-19T22:35:58 <gmaxwell> One of the people reporting ran under valgrind, and, as expected saw no leak.
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1049 2015-10-19T22:36:25 <gmaxwell> The numbers they're reporting sound typical for nodes without relay fee increased.
1050 2015-10-19T22:37:05 <EagleTM> even minrelaytxfee=0.000011 helps quite a bit :)
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1093 2015-10-19T23:52:45 <brand0> if they're running old versions of bitcoind that would explain it
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