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  39 2015-10-22T01:16:01  <rusty> kanzure: you have GPG?
  40 2015-10-22T01:16:22  <kanzure> http://heybryan.org/pubkey.txt
  41 2015-10-22T01:25:18  <rusty> kanzure: sent
  42 2015-10-22T01:25:32  <rusty> jgarzik: OK, should we pull the trigger and send the post?
  43 2015-10-22T01:25:40  <kanzure> rusty: received
  44 2015-10-22T01:25:41  <jgarzik> rusty, ack
  45 2015-10-22T01:26:25  <jgarzik> release early, release often, rapidly iterate based on feedback received :)
  46 2015-10-22T01:26:39  <jgarzik> blame me if things go wrong
  47 2015-10-22T01:26:45  <kanzure> and all iterations funded by jgarzik
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  49 2015-10-22T01:28:11  <jcorgan> http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0x473077BC671DA2F7
  50 2015-10-22T01:28:52  <rusty> OK, everyone is moderated.  Now I'll send post (which I shiould have to manually let through)
  51 2015-10-22T01:30:35  <kanzure> where's the moderator interface? or only by mail reply?
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  53 2015-10-22T01:32:20  <rusty> kanzure: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/admindb/bitcoin-dev
  54 2015-10-22T01:32:36  <rusty> I'm despamming the queue now...
  55 2015-10-22T01:32:38  <kanzure> are pending moderation requests sent by email?
  56 2015-10-22T01:33:19  <rusty> kanzure: hmm, they should.  There's a setting where you can say where to sned IIRC
  57 2015-10-22T01:34:15  <kanzure> are the rejects automatically sent to the correct mailing list?
  58 2015-10-22T01:36:47  <rusty> kanzure: no, you need to click the "forward" button and put in the address.  Let me send a test for you...
  59 2015-10-22T01:37:51  <kanzure> ah that is an important detail. i would have neglected that.
  60 2015-10-22T01:41:11  <rusty> kanzure: OK, look now.  Forward to  	  bitcoin-dev-moderation@lists.ozlabs.org
  61 2015-10-22T01:43:12  <kanzure> requests: (1) modification request notifications, (2) automatic forwarding, or at least a default in the admin interface
  62 2015-10-22T01:43:18  <kanzure> s/modification/moderation
  63 2015-10-22T01:45:25  <rusty> kanzure: you can set these yourself?
  64 2015-10-22T01:45:33  <morcos> thanks all of you for doing this!
  65 2015-10-22T01:45:47  <kanzure> rusty: probably requires access to the mailman implementation? i don't have this.
  66 2015-10-22T01:47:11  <jcorgan> rusty: in mailman you'll need to add our email addresses to the moderator config box for it to send us email notifications of pending moderation requests
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  77 2015-10-22T02:08:46  <rusty> jcorgan: you could do that, too... one sec, seding password
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  79 2015-10-22T02:09:00  <rusty> Sorry, was AFK
  80 2015-10-22T02:09:15  <jcorgan> i have it
  81 2015-10-22T02:09:20  <jcorgan> i'll do mine
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  83 2015-10-22T02:09:48  <jcorgan> done
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  87 2015-10-22T02:14:00  <rusty> jcorgan: me too.  I also put mdoeration rules into welcome message.
  88 2015-10-22T02:15:23  <jcorgan> istr there was a plan to have a URL with each list and its policies on it somewhere, maybe at LF
  89 2015-10-22T02:15:34  <jcorgan> if so we could link to that
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  99 2015-10-22T02:23:38  <rusty> jcorgan: that's a good idea, for the moment just point to the opening post at http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011591.html
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 207 2015-10-22T07:13:09  <btcdrak> sipa: gmaxwell: sdaftuar: any chance you could take a look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6566
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 532 2015-10-22T16:38:53  <FullAnGel> 1Cx2yGrC5c1QUXFMPNKarpgURQhUwCVBz2
 533 2015-10-22T16:39:01  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o jcorgan
 534 2015-10-22T16:39:06  *** jcorgan sets mode: +b *!*4e19791b@*.78.25.121.27
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 537 2015-10-22T16:40:36  <jcorgan> jgarzik: do we have a policy for -dev ML regarding cross-posting to other lists?  I don't think it is an issue, but wanted to check.
 538 2015-10-22T16:40:48  *** jcorgan sets mode: -o jcorgan
 539 2015-10-22T16:40:57  <jgarzik> that's fine
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 545 2015-10-22T16:48:53  <btcdrak> jgarzik: I think it's fine too but I'm not sure it continues to be fine when the discussion should be moved to github as is the case with the current memory leak thread
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 548 2015-10-22T16:49:45  <jgarzik> sure. and that's not a CC issue that's a "stop sending to this list (and/or any other lists) and send to github"
 549 2015-10-22T16:49:46  <btcdrak> jgarzik: i mean it's turned into a semi support thread. I think we should say something tbh
 550 2015-10-22T16:49:50  <jgarzik> imo
 551 2015-10-22T16:50:27  <btcdrak> jgarzik: yes, I agree.
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 556 2015-10-22T16:53:41  <btcdrak> I might post something like "I think this thread has gotten to the stage where it should be moved to an issue tracker and not continue to CC bitcoin-dev list (or any other list tbh)."
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 638 2015-10-22T19:00:05  <sipa> meeting time?
 639 2015-10-22T19:00:09  <gmaxwell> Thu Oct 22 19:00:00 UTC 2015
 640 2015-10-22T19:00:13  *** mjerr has joined #bitcoin-dev
 641 2015-10-22T19:00:25  <btcdrak> yup
 642 2015-10-22T19:00:36  <sipa> brb
 643 2015-10-22T19:00:38  <btcdrak> ping wumpus
 644 2015-10-22T19:00:41  <petertodd> hi
 645 2015-10-22T19:00:57  <btcdrak> greetings petertodd
 646 2015-10-22T19:01:19  <btcdrak> petertodd: how's the RBF rebase going?
 647 2015-10-22T19:01:39  <petertodd> btcdrak: was just working on that...
 648 2015-10-22T19:02:10  <petertodd> btcdrak: was more of a rewrite, because the new tx package tracking is useful for it
 649 2015-10-22T19:02:58  <sipa> suggested topic: mempool memory usage due to chainstate cache
 650 2015-10-22T19:03:01  <sdaftuar> petertodd: not sure if it's useful, but i'm working on ancestor package tracking as well
 651 2015-10-22T19:03:08  <BlueMatt> sipa: yea, was just about to say that
 652 2015-10-22T19:03:13  <sipa> suggested topic: leveldb seems unmaintained, do we look for replacements?
 653 2015-10-22T19:03:19  <gmaxwell> sipa: seconded.
 654 2015-10-22T19:03:22  <petertodd> sdaftuar: descendent tracking is the only thing rbf needs as far as i can tell
 655 2015-10-22T19:03:23  <BlueMatt> answer: yes
 656 2015-10-22T19:03:25  <BlueMatt> wait, not yet
 657 2015-10-22T19:03:49  <cfields> jonasschnelli might like to weigh in here
 658 2015-10-22T19:03:51  <btcdrak> ping maaku
 659 2015-10-22T19:04:02  <jgarzik> suggested topic: FYI bitcoin-dev now moderated
 660 2015-10-22T19:04:10  <btcdrak> who is going to operate the meetingbot?
 661 2015-10-22T19:04:12  <gmaxwell> To be clear,  seconded, on Mempool/chainstate, leveldb.
 662 2015-10-22T19:04:30  <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Any discussion on bitcoin-dev or should we just note that?
 663 2015-10-22T19:05:11  <btcdrak> #startmeeting
 664 2015-10-22T19:05:11  <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Oct 22 19:05:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is btcdrak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 665 2015-10-22T19:05:11  <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 666 2015-10-22T19:05:50  <jgarzik> gmaxwell, just note
 667 2015-10-22T19:06:10  <jonasschnelli> replacement for leveldb is a good topic IMO
 668 2015-10-22T19:06:13  <jgarzik> Just letting devs know to resubscribe :)     (unless someone wants to discuss)
 669 2015-10-22T19:06:40  *** nwilcox has quit IRC
 670 2015-10-22T19:06:43  <jonasschnelli> so. Topics?
 671 2015-10-22T19:07:03  <btcdrak> let's start with mempool memory usage
 672 2015-10-22T19:07:13  <btcdrak> #topic mempool memory usage
 673 2015-10-22T19:07:16  <sipa> so
 674 2015-10-22T19:07:25  <sipa> a few things that BlueMatt and i discovered
 675 2015-10-22T19:07:26  <jgarzik> paste wumpus's gist
 676 2015-10-22T19:07:48  <sipa> there is a discrepancy between the mempool limit that is configured and actual memory usage
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 680 2015-10-22T19:08:08  <sipa> investigating turned up that just transaction processing can pull in large amounts of utxo cache data
 681 2015-10-22T19:08:15  <sipa> which is only flushed after block processing
 682 2015-10-22T19:08:24  <sipa> so it can temporarily exceed the limit
 683 2015-10-22T19:08:52  <sipa> also, -checkmempool pulls in all mempool dependencies into the utxo cache, which also can blow it out of bounds
 684 2015-10-22T19:09:02  <morcos> sipa: to be clear there are two limits, utxo dbcache limit and mempool limit and the utxo dbcache limit is exceeded right?
 685 2015-10-22T19:09:07  <sipa> morcos: correct
 686 2015-10-22T19:09:10  *** YoY has quit IRC
 687 2015-10-22T19:09:22  <sipa> there is an obvious solution to this, namely just enforcing the utxo limit the whole time
 688 2015-10-22T19:09:45  <sipa> however, that means that if you misconfigure your mempool limit, an attack can basically blow away your utxo cache
 689 2015-10-22T19:09:51  <BlueMatt> well, there are two obvious solutions: always flush utxo cache, or limit mempool in parallel with utxo cache
 690 2015-10-22T19:09:56  *** mkarrer has quit IRC
 691 2015-10-22T19:09:56  <BlueMatt> eg https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/2315cbca8b74197aac022126f0dc0527024c64c9
 692 2015-10-22T19:09:58  <sipa> which has a significant impact on block validation/propagation
 693 2015-10-22T19:09:59  *** bendavenport has quit IRC
 694 2015-10-22T19:10:17  <BlueMatt> (but this opens you up to txn in mempool eating WAY more "space" than others, allowing then to more easily kick out other txn)
 695 2015-10-22T19:10:38  *** YoY has joined #bitcoin-dev
 696 2015-10-22T19:10:44  <morcos> aren't there in between answers
 697 2015-10-22T19:10:45  <gmaxwell> sipa: since the utxo cache impact of a mempool transaction can be larger than the transaction itself; do we have an issue that strictly enforcing that limit would slow block verification by resulting in not all mempool txn being cached?
 698 2015-10-22T19:11:02  <morcos> such as not putting into pcoinstip cache utxos for txs which weren't actually accepted into the mempool
 699 2015-10-22T19:11:04  <BlueMatt> morcos: yes
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 701 2015-10-22T19:11:30  <morcos> also if the mempool limit and utxo limit are closer to the same size... then it should be hard for the actual mempool to blow up the utxo limit, modulo eviction
 702 2015-10-22T19:11:33  <sipa> gmaxwell: indeed.. basically... we want the chainstate cache to closely match what is in the mempool as an expectation of the next block
 703 2015-10-22T19:11:36  <sdaftuar> we could also be smarter about what we flush, based on what is in the mempool/likelhiood of being mined?
 704 2015-10-22T19:11:43  <sipa> so it makes sense to only have one limit that governs both
 705 2015-10-22T19:12:07  <gmaxwell> morcos: though if we reject them and they are still mined, that again will result in lower block verification speed.  (though I agree they're second class citizens for sure)
 706 2015-10-22T19:12:11  <morcos> sdaftuar: yes, exactly.  first approx, whats actually in the mempool (and not things that got checked but didn't make it) .  next remove things that are evicted
 707 2015-10-22T19:12:18  <BlueMatt> morcos: well, yes, you can do thinks like only kick out cache entries as the txn leave mempool (eg https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoin/commit/5b90ba0da0e6bb086bf5e793634bd105b2bc45ca )
 708 2015-10-22T19:12:26  *** ericmuyser has quit IRC
 709 2015-10-22T19:12:31  <sipa> two ideas so far for getting closer to that: when a tx is evicted from the mempool, also kick them out of the chainstate cache (if they are not dirty)
 710 2015-10-22T19:12:50  <BlueMatt> the above commit does that
 711 2015-10-22T19:13:05  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: what about ones that never go in?
 712 2015-10-22T19:13:05  <sipa> and not letting failed-to-accept-to-mempool's dependencies go into the cache
 713 2015-10-22T19:13:12  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: dont think so
 714 2015-10-22T19:13:14  <BlueMatt> fixing now
 715 2015-10-22T19:13:46  <sipa> i think a better solution is to turn the chainstate cache into a LRU, and be able to on the fly evict things from it
 716 2015-10-22T19:13:55  <sipa> when there are better things to put in
 717 2015-10-22T19:13:59  <BlueMatt> ehhh, i dont think that fixes it?
 718 2015-10-22T19:14:03  <sipa> it's part of it
 719 2015-10-22T19:14:08  <BlueMatt> you dont care about lru here, you care about used-in-high-feerate-txn
 720 2015-10-22T19:14:15  <sdaftuar> BlueMatt: agreed
 721 2015-10-22T19:14:22  <sipa> right, that's independent
 722 2015-10-22T19:14:22  <morcos> BlueMatt: by defniniton that will be LRU
 723 2015-10-22T19:14:26  <morcos> otherwise it'll be mined
 724 2015-10-22T19:14:30  <BlueMatt> morcos: huh? no
 725 2015-10-22T19:14:41  <sipa> you want to give priority to the cache for things in the mempool
 726 2015-10-22T19:14:45  <BlueMatt> morcos: over long timespans, sure, but what about something that barely doesnt get mined for a while
 727 2015-10-22T19:14:57  <BlueMatt> we want to keep it, because its more likely than something for which there is a lot of churn at the bottom of the mempool
 728 2015-10-22T19:14:59  <sipa> but outside of that, you want to be able to evict things from the cache when more space in it is needed for mempool txn
 729 2015-10-22T19:15:01  <BlueMatt> but it may be a while before its mined
 730 2015-10-22T19:15:25  <morcos> how much of a practical problem is this right now
 731 2015-10-22T19:15:53  <morcos> lets say you set dbcache to 2x mempool limit
 732 2015-10-22T19:16:06  <BlueMatt> right now utxo cache is unlimited
 733 2015-10-22T19:16:12  <morcos> do you really get much of a problem, i think there might be more low hanging fruit
 734 2015-10-22T19:16:19  <morcos> only unlimited between blocks though
 735 2015-10-22T19:16:22  <BlueMatt> sure
 736 2015-10-22T19:16:24  <sipa> the problem is that the utxo cache is per tx
 737 2015-10-22T19:16:25  <sipa> not per txout
 738 2015-10-22T19:16:43  <sipa> so if you are spending outputs from large transactions, the impact on the cache is proportionally way larger
 739 2015-10-22T19:16:43  <BlueMatt> but if you create a tx that spends 100 txos from different very-large-txo-set txn, you can pull in a lot of memory
 740 2015-10-22T19:17:06  <morcos> i think if we could do the simple thing of not letting non-accepted txs populated the utxo cache, we'll have closed most of the problem
 741 2015-10-22T19:17:10  <sipa> i believe i've seen single transactions pull in over 10 MB of chainstate cache
 742 2015-10-22T19:17:29  <sipa> though i need to investigate further
 743 2015-10-22T19:17:36  <morcos> still, i mean what kind of attack is that
 744 2015-10-22T19:18:06  <morcos> its pretty tough to do that with a big chunk of txs from the mempool
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 748 2015-10-22T19:18:53  <morcos> anyway, i should rebase #5967, as i think it might be good for doing some of this
 749 2015-10-22T19:19:03  <morcos> that allows the intermediate cache to be flushed
 750 2015-10-22T19:19:24  <sipa> ok
 751 2015-10-22T19:19:25  <morcos> so pcoinstip doesn't need to have coins just b/c viewmempool does
 752 2015-10-22T19:20:08  <jgarzik> ### 1/3 of meeting complete
 753 2015-10-22T19:20:29  <btcdrak> so are there any action points for this topic?
 754 2015-10-22T19:20:41  <gmaxwell> okay I think people are going to continue existing work to research and optimize here.
 755 2015-10-22T19:20:49  <BlueMatt> yea, lets move forward
 756 2015-10-22T19:20:50  *** caktux has quit IRC
 757 2015-10-22T19:20:52  <btcdrak> #action continue research
 758 2015-10-22T19:20:55  *** bendavenport has joined #bitcoin-dev
 759 2015-10-22T19:20:57  <btcdrak> next topic
 760 2015-10-22T19:21:03  <btcdrak> #topic leveldb replacement
 761 2015-10-22T19:21:12  <CodeShark> is that really a topic? :)
 762 2015-10-22T19:21:20  *** caktux has joined #bitcoin-dev
 763 2015-10-22T19:21:21  <sipa> being discussed in #bitcoin-core-dev now
 764 2015-10-22T19:21:25  <sipa> it's more a mention
 765 2015-10-22T19:21:28  <CodeShark> I know - lol
 766 2015-10-22T19:21:37  <sipa> seems several people are interested in investigating this
 767 2015-10-22T19:21:44  *** ThomasV has quit IRC
 768 2015-10-22T19:21:52  <gmaxwell> This is pretty bitcoin core specific. Leveldb durrability is not good, and we also suffer from its performance... it is also not (apparently) actively maintained anymore (and the FS layer stuff seems to have not really been maintained for sometime).
 769 2015-10-22T19:21:55  <sipa> not sure there is much to say about it any more
 770 2015-10-22T19:21:57  <gmaxwell> People are investigating alternatives.
 771 2015-10-22T19:21:58  <btcdrak> jeff is researching sqlite as an option
 772 2015-10-22T19:22:03  <jgarzik> Argument - leveldb not so well maintained.     I should have a patch for sqlite by the end of the day.
 773 2015-10-22T19:22:12  <CodeShark> SQLite is a fine replacement for bdb for the wallet stuff - but for a blockchain store, not sure
 774 2015-10-22T19:22:17  <sipa> i look forward to benchmarking
 775 2015-10-22T19:22:25  <kanzure_> so would that be sqlite + leveldb?
 776 2015-10-22T19:22:30  <sipa> without benchmark results, any discussing is probably worthless
 777 2015-10-22T19:22:37  <btcdrak> the problem is leveldb is not being maintained.
 778 2015-10-22T19:22:41  <gmaxwell> (also I vind the leveldb code to be very difficult to review :) )
 779 2015-10-22T19:22:41  <kanzure_> and also, would there be an automatic migration from leveldb to sqlite
 780 2015-10-22T19:22:45  <BlueMatt> so i think the action is benchmark lots of things, come back and report (in -core-dev) with results
 781 2015-10-22T19:22:46  <jgarzik> sqlite appears to perform better than bdb for large numbers of records, according to the sqlite key/value store wiki benchmarks page.
 782 2015-10-22T19:22:49  *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 783 2015-10-22T19:23:02  <jcorgan> it's pretty much a guarantee that sqlite perf will be much lower than leveldb, but i'd be happy to be surprised
 784 2015-10-22T19:23:08  <luke-jr_> UTXO storage db is part of the consensus protocol, so it really isn't Core-specific
 785 2015-10-22T19:23:10  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: I don't really agree there, in any case. I think all we need to do is note this is being discussed and explorered.
 786 2015-10-22T19:23:16  <jgarzik> jcorgan, the benchmarks pages disagrees
 787 2015-10-22T19:23:24  <kanzure_> sqlite also has in-memory database which could be strangely useful for unit testing (sqlite://:memory:)
 788 2015-10-22T19:23:32  <sipa> sqlite is better for synchronous storage, slower for batch updates, faster for random-access reads
 789 2015-10-22T19:23:41  <sipa> all of which are things we rely on very heavily
 790 2015-10-22T19:23:45  <jonasschnelli> sqlite seems not to be the type we'd like to have for a leveldb replace. What about other non-sql solutions?
 791 2015-10-22T19:23:46  <sipa> so i don't know the result
 792 2015-10-22T19:23:49  <jgarzik> kanzure_, yes.  that is easily wrapped into the current wrapper, newly s/CLevelDBWrapper/CDBWrapper/
 793 2015-10-22T19:23:54  <maaku> sipa: benchmarks https://www.sqlite.org/cvstrac/wiki?p=KeyValueDatabase
 794 2015-10-22T19:23:54  <jcorgan> as i mentioned before, my main reason for advocating sqlite is to be able to use the sqlcipher fork for full db encryption
 795 2015-10-22T19:24:04  <maaku> (sqlite is crazy slow compared with bdb)
 796 2015-10-22T19:24:17  <kanzure_> jcorgan: and where would the keys go?
 797 2015-10-22T19:24:20  <kanzure_> oh, wallet. nevermind.
 798 2015-10-22T19:24:22  *** luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
 799 2015-10-22T19:24:25  <jgarzik> maaku, except for large numbers of records, as shown on that page
 800 2015-10-22T19:24:37  <sipa> jcorgan: encryption for public data seems pointless
 801 2015-10-22T19:25:03  <kanzure_> well maybe for watches or something..
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 804 2015-10-22T19:25:11  <jonasschnelli> I agree with sipa: first we need some research, there are other solutions like RocksDB, etc. We need an overview with benchmarks to evaluate more
 805 2015-10-22T19:25:19  <sipa> ok
 806 2015-10-22T19:25:22  <sipa> next topic?
 807 2015-10-22T19:25:23  <btcdrak> #action continue research and benchmarking
 808 2015-10-22T19:25:34  <btcdrak> #topic versionbits
 809 2015-10-22T19:25:42  <btcdrak> CodeShark wanted to discuss his implementation
 810 2015-10-22T19:25:58  <CodeShark> #6816 needs more reviews :)
 811 2015-10-22T19:26:05  <kanzure_> gmaxwell: how much better is sqlite source code for legibility?
 812 2015-10-22T19:26:37  <btcdrak> CodeShark, are you planning to add some RPC tests?
 813 2015-10-22T19:26:41  <gmaxwell> kanzure_: we're on a new topic. will respond later.
 814 2015-10-22T19:27:00  <CodeShark> btcdrak: I added versionbits info to the getblockchaininfo RPC
 815 2015-10-22T19:27:01  <btcdrak> Also, for the record, what's the status of the implementation?
 816 2015-10-22T19:27:21  <CodeShark> the implementation should be ready for integration barring any issues I'm unaware of
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 819 2015-10-22T19:28:06  <btcdrak> ok is there anything else to discuss on this topic?
 820 2015-10-22T19:28:17  <sipa> we should review implementation
 821 2015-10-22T19:28:25  <btcdrak> #action review versionbits implementation https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816
 822 2015-10-22T19:28:25  <sipa> that includes me
 823 2015-10-22T19:28:43  <btcdrak> next topic?
 824 2015-10-22T19:28:51  <btcdrak> I'd like to mention the mailing list for the record
 825 2015-10-22T19:28:58  <btcdrak> #topic mailing list
 826 2015-10-22T19:29:15  <kanzure_> have users been moved to bitcoin-discuss, or is that voluntary sign-up only?
 827 2015-10-22T19:29:20  <btcdrak> We finalised the moderation rules for bitcoin-dev
 828 2015-10-22T19:29:23  *** kgk has joined #bitcoin-dev
 829 2015-10-22T19:29:27  <btcdrak> and have started a 3 month moderation period
 830 2015-10-22T19:29:38  <CodeShark> have those rules been posted anywhere?
 831 2015-10-22T19:29:39  <btcdrak> We#d encourage devs to join again
 832 2015-10-22T19:29:46  <btcdrak> #info http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011591.html
 833 2015-10-22T19:29:46  <petertodd> btcdrak: by moderation, does this mean posts have to be manually approved?
 834 2015-10-22T19:29:59  <CodeShark> is there a white list?
 835 2015-10-22T19:30:01  <btcdrak> see the link above
 836 2015-10-22T19:30:09  <gmaxwell> On the subject of "take note" -- bitcoin.org had incorrect release notes for 0.11.1.  It's corrected now. They had posted the release notes for the initial RC and not updated them. Process wise it would be good to watch out for that in the future.
 837 2015-10-22T19:30:11  <kanzure_> petertodd: yes, i have had to manually approve email today
 838 2015-10-22T19:30:21  <jcorgan> only the first
 839 2015-10-22T19:30:24  *** crescendo has joined #bitcoin-dev
 840 2015-10-22T19:30:29  <petertodd> btcdrak: Ah, I missed the "mod bit" part of that message, thanks.
 841 2015-10-22T19:30:29  *** brson has quit IRC
 842 2015-10-22T19:30:32  <jcorgan> then we take the mod bit off that user
 843 2015-10-22T19:30:57  <btcdrak> ok next topic, anyone?
 844 2015-10-22T19:31:03  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: my bad for not bringing it up. I had assumed the only difference was minor, but I should have compared when I noticed it was not identical. :/
 845 2015-10-22T19:31:25  <kanzure_> if we want to have actively used bitcoin-discuss there should be someone who currates content for that mailing list, otherwise i doubt people will use it
 846 2015-10-22T19:31:32  <kanzure_> actually what is the status, has traffic actually been redirected there
 847 2015-10-22T19:31:34  *** InternetFriend has joined #bitcoin-dev
 848 2015-10-22T19:31:45  <kanzure_> "No messages have been posted to this list yet, so the archives are currently empty."
 849 2015-10-22T19:31:46  <btcdrak> kanzure_ please see the posted link
 850 2015-10-22T19:31:49  <sipa> note: there is still a discuss mailing list on SF
 851 2015-10-22T19:31:59  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: in particular it did not have the relay fee bump.
 852 2015-10-22T19:32:01  <sipa> there have been several messages sent there this year
 853 2015-10-22T19:32:01  <kanzure_> which discuss mailing list should have priority?
 854 2015-10-22T19:32:06  <btcdrak> sipa: the new official list is now bitcoin-discuss at LF
 855 2015-10-22T19:32:12  <kanzure_> linuxfoundation has been working well afaik
 856 2015-10-22T19:32:15  <kanzure_> for mailing list hosting
 857 2015-10-22T19:32:34  <jgarzik> #action tell SF list about new lists
 858 2015-10-22T19:32:38  <btcdrak> #link lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-discuss
 859 2015-10-22T19:32:47  <kanzure_> we should find someone who wants to actively run -discuss or something
 860 2015-10-22T19:32:52  <sipa> i did hide the old dev list from SF
 861 2015-10-22T19:32:54  <kanzure_> or replay old -dev messages to -discuss that would have otherwise been moderated
 862 2015-10-22T19:33:07  <sipa> i haven't deleted it yet should we want its archives for whatever reason
 863 2015-10-22T19:33:33  <kanzure_> (for the record i am not interested in running or moderating -discuss, but "go here where nobody is sending email/reading" is not likely to win anyone over)
 864 2015-10-22T19:33:34  <btcdrak> ok I think next topic. I've got one ;)
 865 2015-10-22T19:33:50  <btcdrak> #topic Median Past locktime
 866 2015-10-22T19:34:00  <btcdrak> #link PR https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6566
 867 2015-10-22T19:34:13  <btcdrak> Reviews have been good since last week
 868 2015-10-22T19:34:14  *** aidanh has quit IRC
 869 2015-10-22T19:34:42  <btcdrak> maaku: there are a couple of nits from wumpus and gmaxwell. Has anyone else got concerns for this PR?
 870 2015-10-22T19:34:54  <sipa> concept ack
 871 2015-10-22T19:34:57  <gmaxwell> I am a strong concept ack.
 872 2015-10-22T19:35:04  <gmaxwell> (which I'll also go make clear there)
 873 2015-10-22T19:35:09  <kanzure_> yes same with sipa please
 874 2015-10-22T19:35:26  <Luke-Jr> I'll try to finish reviewing it ASAP
 875 2015-10-22T19:36:11  <btcdrak> #action review https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6566
 876 2015-10-22T19:36:12  <gmaxwell> There is lots going on in lots of PRs, but I can't think of any that need to be elevated to here.
 877 2015-10-22T19:36:32  <btcdrak> I only bring up 6566 because we talked about adding it to the CLTV softfork
 878 2015-10-22T19:36:44  <btcdrak> we're getting close to that now
 879 2015-10-22T19:36:53  <gmaxwell> Topic suggestion: Where are we on CLTV soft-fork deployment?
 880 2015-10-22T19:37:03  <btcdrak> #topic CLTV softfork deployment
 881 2015-10-22T19:37:16  <petertodd> btcdrak: re: CLTV softfork, I'm likely not going to have time to be doing more rebasing/rework on that going forward, so either merge it or someone else should be prepared to take over
 882 2015-10-22T19:37:20  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: that PR is just mempool behavior.
 883 2015-10-22T19:37:29  <petertodd> (I no longer have funding for bitcoin core work)
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 885 2015-10-22T19:38:05  <CodeShark> fwiw, #6816 will make merging the soft fork logic itself pretty straightforward ;)
 886 2015-10-22T19:38:33  <btcdrak> We agreed to roll out the CLTV softfork at the end of October.
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 889 2015-10-22T19:39:16  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: no one forgets what the objective was there, but what is the status?
 890 2015-10-22T19:39:22  *** kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
 891 2015-10-22T19:39:34  <btcdrak> I believe for master the PR is ready to merge
 892 2015-10-22T19:39:35  <sipa> what needs to be done?
 893 2015-10-22T19:39:45  <btcdrak> there are 0.10 and 0.11 PRs for the packports also
 894 2015-10-22T19:39:51  <btcdrak> so they just need to be merged.
 895 2015-10-22T19:39:57  <sipa> merge PR, do v4 block ISM softwarez done?
 896 2015-10-22T19:40:06  <btcdrak> sipa: yes
 897 2015-10-22T19:40:07  <sipa> i will review then
 898 2015-10-22T19:40:15  <sipa> but i expect i will be fine
 899 2015-10-22T19:40:24  <sipa> this is the sort of thing to discuss on the ML though
 900 2015-10-22T19:40:28  <btcdrak> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6707
 901 2015-10-22T19:40:35  <btcdrak> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6706
 902 2015-10-22T19:40:53  <btcdrak> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6351
 903 2015-10-22T19:41:11  <btcdrak> Those are the PRs. If petertodd isnt around to rebase, one of us can just do it.
 904 2015-10-22T19:41:20  <sipa> yeah
 905 2015-10-22T19:41:36  <btcdrak> if we want to add media-past-locktime then there is still time
 906 2015-10-22T19:42:02  <gmaxwell> #action review #6707 #6706 #6351 for CLTV deployment.
 907 2015-10-22T19:42:25  <gmaxwell> Has code even been writeen for MPL enforcement as part of that soft fork? if not, someone needs to take the task of doing it.
 908 2015-10-22T19:42:28  <btcdrak> do we want to try for median-past-locktime with this or just wait?
 909 2015-10-22T19:42:52  <btcdrak> I would have assume maaku would do it, he was just waiting for the mempool PR to be merged
 910 2015-10-22T19:42:52  <petertodd> btcdrak: median past is the type of boring change that'd be an excellent way to deploy versionbits actually
 911 2015-10-22T19:43:11  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: there are three possibilities in my mind.
 912 2015-10-22T19:43:16  <petertodd> btcdrak: there's no rush to do it and it's uncontroversial
 913 2015-10-22T19:43:24  <gmaxwell> no MPL. MPL mempool only. MPL in softfork.
 914 2015-10-22T19:43:32  <gmaxwell> I strongly believe we should not do the first.
 915 2015-10-22T19:43:46  <gmaxwell> well somewhat strongly.
 916 2015-10-22T19:43:59  <kanzure> so short-term median-past-locktime mempool only, then median-past-locktime soft-fork using versionbits?
 917 2015-10-22T19:44:00  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: at the least, I would love MPL as mempool together with BIP68 and OP_CSV as mempool.
 918 2015-10-22T19:44:11  <maaku> gmaxwell: the MPL pull is specifically written to not require further code for soft-fork, just setting a flag bit undre a ISM condition
 919 2015-10-22T19:44:20  <gmaxwell> actually, for same reason, MPL-mempool only should be done instead of the softfork. Rational: right now miners will currently mine MPL violations.
 920 2015-10-22T19:44:25  <btcdrak> deployment is easy
 921 2015-10-22T19:44:40  <sipa> yes, MPL should be deployed mempool-only first
 922 2015-10-22T19:44:56  <petertodd> gmaxwell: oh right, that's a good point... further delays MPL deployment, which again is an argument to do it with versionbit
 923 2015-10-22T19:45:04  <gmaxwell> maaku: I know I read the code. But there is no patch to actually set the flag and enforce it. But thats okay at the moment. We should mempool only it first.
 924 2015-10-22T19:45:15  <sipa> same with BIP68, no?
 925 2015-10-22T19:45:27  <gmaxwell> sipa: CSV enforcement is flagged.
 926 2015-10-22T19:45:31  <sipa> current miners will accept bip68 violations
 927 2015-10-22T19:45:46  <sdaftuar> BIP68 is only active for higher tx version right?
 928 2015-10-22T19:45:48  <petertodd> sipa: requires nVersion=2
 929 2015-10-22T19:45:49  <gmaxwell> sipa: no, requires a tx version flag.
 930 2015-10-22T19:45:55  <sipa> right, separate tx version
 931 2015-10-22T19:46:00  <sipa> which is already nonstandard
 932 2015-10-22T19:46:01  <sipa> nvm!
 933 2015-10-22T19:46:06  <maaku> gmaxwell: there's no patch because it'd presumably be part of #6351 if rolled out together, so I didn't create a separate PR
 934 2015-10-22T19:46:36  <gmaxwell> maaku: thats okay, I think based on the observation that miners would currently mine violations we'll only do mempool only immediately.
 935 2015-10-22T19:47:08  <gmaxwell> (which also still has the positive effect of stopping new CLTV locktime users from depending on the to-be-replaced behavior.
 936 2015-10-22T19:47:13  <gmaxwell> )
 937 2015-10-22T19:47:33  <btcdrak> how about we merge all three mempool PRs and release them with the CLTV deployment to get them out in the wild. We can then consider another ISM or versionbits deployment after?
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 939 2015-10-22T19:47:57  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: the mempool related PRs are more or less 0.12 only.
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 941 2015-10-22T19:48:23  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: but we can backport?
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 943 2015-10-22T19:48:26  <gmaxwell> They depend on git master exclusive major changes to the mempool code.
 944 2015-10-22T19:48:31  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: I don't think that would be prudent.
 945 2015-10-22T19:48:40  <btcdrak> we have to backport for softfork deployments anyway
 946 2015-10-22T19:48:40  <Luke-Jr> we can release backported policy patches
 947 2015-10-22T19:48:49  <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: consensus and policy are not the same
 948 2015-10-22T19:48:56  <gmaxwell> I would recommend 'backporting' TCP_NODELAY.  (which I will gladly do, of course) :P  if you're looking for upgrade sweetener.
 949 2015-10-22T19:48:58  <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: ah, I understand
 950 2015-10-22T19:49:05  <CodeShark> should I start working on #6816 backports?
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 952 2015-10-22T19:49:25  <btcdrak> CodeShark I would get #6816 merged first.
 953 2015-10-22T19:49:39  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: perhaps wait until the first round of review unless you're itching and won't mind redoing it if you get asked to change the design?
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 956 2015-10-22T19:50:14  <CodeShark> the backports should be pretty easy, I think - so it can wait
 957 2015-10-22T19:50:15  <kanzure> does median-past-locktime mempool-only also require lots of master-only 0.12 mempool changes that are not in the older versions? re: backporting
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 960 2015-10-22T19:50:28  <CodeShark> the backports can wait, that is - the reviews can't ;)
 961 2015-10-22T19:50:46  <gmaxwell> Kireji: no.
 962 2015-10-22T19:50:48  <gmaxwell> er
 963 2015-10-22T19:50:50  <gmaxwell> kanzure: no.
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 965 2015-10-22T19:50:58  <gmaxwell> are there any in flight backportable bug fixes which we should hammer down before we do backport updates for the CLTV soft-fork?
 966 2015-10-22T19:51:17  <sipa> gmaxwell: which "mempool related PRs" are not backportable?
 967 2015-10-22T19:51:55  <gmaxwell> sipa: I assume btcdrak is mostly talking about matt's limiter, which depends on the major data structure changes in the mempool.  Do you think we should actually backport all that?
 968 2015-10-22T19:52:08  <sipa> gmaxwell: hell no
 969 2015-10-22T19:52:14  <petertodd> sipa: +1
 970 2015-10-22T19:52:14  <sipa> but we're talking about softforks here
 971 2015-10-22T19:52:27  <btcdrak> I think the point is, if we get the mempool PRs merged in master, then we can start working on backporting them. The actual softfork deployment can be done at any time thereafter at our convenience.
 972 2015-10-22T19:52:42  <gmaxwell> oh dear! okay. I was wires crossed. I thought btcdrap was talking about mempool capacity management.
 973 2015-10-22T19:52:45  <btcdrak> this way we're doing a pure CLTV release first.
 974 2015-10-22T19:52:54  <sipa> i think that btcdrak is referring to the BIP68/112/113 mempool-only changes with "mempool PRs"
 975 2015-10-22T19:52:56  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: no :)
 976 2015-10-22T19:52:58  <maaku> kanzure: I don't believe any of #6312, #6564 or #6566 depend on master changes
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 978 2015-10-22T19:53:02  <petertodd> also, if a backport is going to take a lot of work, you might want to ask miners first if they really want it...
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 980 2015-10-22T19:53:11  <maaku> I'm not sure what gmaxwell is referring to
 981 2015-10-22T19:53:12  <btcdrak> yes, sorry that's my mistake, I was referring to BIUP68/112/113
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 983 2015-10-22T19:53:49  <gmaxwell> as I said, I thought he was referring to the mempool limits and friends.
 984 2015-10-22T19:53:50  *** rolandnsharp has quit IRC
 985 2015-10-22T19:53:53  <sipa> OK
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 987 2015-10-22T19:53:56  <btcdrak> thing is MPL is quite a trivial patch, it would easily backport and be part of the CLTV softfork...
 988 2015-10-22T19:54:14  <gmaxwell> I do not think there is a reason to mempool only any of them except median right now, as they're already non-standard.
 989 2015-10-22T19:54:33  <gmaxwell> The concern I have is that if we deploy a mempool only CSV then now we have a problem if the interperation of the field changes.
 990 2015-10-22T19:54:52  <gmaxwell> (because we may need to first make it non-standard again)
 991 2015-10-22T19:54:55  <maaku> do we have reason to believe the interpretation of the field will change?
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 994 2015-10-22T19:55:18  <CodeShark> maaku: the last few weeks :p
 995 2015-10-22T19:55:30  <gmaxwell> Deploying it as mempool only in the soft fork backport when its already non-standard carries basically only risk.
 996 2015-10-22T19:55:35  <btcdrak> BIP68 has been refined.
 997 2015-10-22T19:56:02  <btcdrak> I think everyone nits were addressed for BIP68, so itr should be considered final
 998 2015-10-22T19:56:10  <petertodd> gmaxwell: w/ CLTV, the plan was to s/OP_NOP2/OP_NOP3/ - the equivalent for CSV's redefinition of what nSequence means might be to use nVersion>=3 rather than nVersion>=2
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1002 2015-10-22T19:57:05  <gmaxwell> petertodd: indeed, thats true.
1003 2015-10-22T19:57:14  <gmaxwell> But again, I do not see the gain.
1004 2015-10-22T19:57:19  *** zooko has quit IRC
1005 2015-10-22T19:57:26  <gmaxwell> At least in the context of the CLTV softfork release.
1006 2015-10-22T19:57:39  <petertodd> gmaxwell: it's not a gain, just a backup plan if a mempool-only release turns out to need to be changed because the behavior was wrong
1007 2015-10-22T19:57:42  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: so you're suggesting we properly softfork MPL, and bip68/CSV right off the bat
1008 2015-10-22T19:58:08  <gmaxwell> petertodd: I meant I do not see the gain in putting out CSV mempool only at the same time as CLTV softfork.
1009 2015-10-22T19:58:16  <petertodd> gmaxwell: ah, yeah, neither do I
1010 2015-10-22T19:58:18  <gmaxwell> But I agree with your backup plan, good observation.
1011 2015-10-22T19:58:26  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: the original discussion is to have CLTV + MPL
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1013 2015-10-22T19:58:33  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: No. backup.
1014 2015-10-22T19:58:50  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: I am saying, there will be a CLTV soft fork release which also has mempool only MPL.
1015 2015-10-22T19:59:14  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: ok, understood.
1016 2015-10-22T19:59:15  <gmaxwell> The latter because MPL violates current 'standard' behavior, so we would prefer to have that violation dead in the network before MPL soft-fork moves forward.
1017 2015-10-22T19:59:30  <gmaxwell> For CSV mempool it's already non-standard, so the same argument doesn't apply.
1018 2015-10-22T19:59:46  <btcdrak> in that case, maaku needs to work on backporting MPL to 0.11 and 0.10 asap.
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1021 2015-10-22T20:00:05  <gmaxwell> And we're awfully close right now to the last semantic changes, so I'd rather hold for that. (could still go in mempool only first, but just not in the CLTV soft fork release)
1022 2015-10-22T20:00:18  <kanzure> was the mempool limiting stuff something that needs to be discussed? the thing that was misconfused above.
1023 2015-10-22T20:00:19  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: fortunate those backports will be trivial code copying, I believe.
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1026 2015-10-22T20:00:35  <btcdrak> ok so I'll log that as an action point then
1027 2015-10-22T20:00:46  <gmaxwell> kanzure: my wires were crossed, I thought btcdrak brought them up as deployment sweetener for CLTV.
1028 2015-10-22T20:00:52  <kanzure> right
1029 2015-10-22T20:00:59  <kanzure> it was wrong, but does that need to be discussed anyway
1030 2015-10-22T20:01:02  <btcdrak> #action backport MPL to 0.10 and 0.11
1031 2015-10-22T20:01:03  <jgarzik> ###
1032 2015-10-22T20:01:13  <sipa> time's up
1033 2015-10-22T20:01:17  <gmaxwell> we are past time. Thanks everyone!
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1036 2015-10-22T20:01:21  <jgarzik> meeting fini
1037 2015-10-22T20:01:24  <btcdrak> #endmeeting
1038 2015-10-22T20:01:24  <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Oct 22 20:01:24 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1039 2015-10-22T20:01:24  <lightningbot`> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-22-19.05.html
1040 2015-10-22T20:01:24  <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-22-19.05.txt
1041 2015-10-22T20:01:24  <lightningbot`> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-22-19.05.log.html
1042 2015-10-22T20:01:52  <btcdrak> haha gmaxwell that was hectic for a bit, I was confused as hell :)
1043 2015-10-22T20:02:34  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: now that the meeting is over, just wanted to ping you to see if anything is holding up assigning a BIP number for the sendheaders BIP?
1044 2015-10-22T20:02:39  <gmaxwell> kanzure: as far as sqllite, yes I think the code is quite readable, and extensively commented. Their testing is also very impressive.  But I really do not expect the performance to be acceptable...
1045 2015-10-22T20:02:55  <kanzure> haven't looked at either leveldb or sqlite source code
1046 2015-10-22T20:02:56  <jonasschnelli> I think RocksDB could be a way to go
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1048 2015-10-22T20:03:23  <jonasschnelli> Check: https://github.com/facebook/rocksdb/wiki/Performance-Benchmarks
1049 2015-10-22T20:03:28  <jonasschnelli> https://influxdb.com/blog/2014/06/20/leveldb_vs_rocksdb_vs_hyperleveldb_vs_lmdb_performance.html
1050 2015-10-22T20:03:31  <bsm1175321> I re-ran those performance benchmarks sipa mentioned: https://gist.github.com/mcelrath/6952eab246a7c705a0fb
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1052 2015-10-22T20:03:48  <jonasschnelli> RocksDB seems to be maintained.
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1054 2015-10-22T20:04:36  <sipa> jonasschnelli: is it extensively tested on windows?
1055 2015-10-22T20:04:43  <kanzure> i wonder if there's any mozilla people working on sqlite. hm.
1056 2015-10-22T20:05:00  <jonasschnelli> windows: who cares. :) ... no: i think not.
1057 2015-10-22T20:05:14  <sipa> that's the massive problem.with leveldb
1058 2015-10-22T20:05:18  <maaku> jonasschnelli: RocksDB is Leveldb descendent
1059 2015-10-22T20:05:24  <sipa> it seems to consistently corrupt on windows
1060 2015-10-22T20:05:25  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: that was my impression about sqlite but according to the chat in #bitcoin-core-dev, it might perform much better than leveldb for what we need
1061 2015-10-22T20:05:51  <maaku> btcdrak: ?
1062 2015-10-22T20:05:52  <sipa> it may also be much worse
1063 2015-10-22T20:05:58  <maaku> sqlite cannot match leveldb performance
1064 2015-10-22T20:06:01  <sipa> let's move discussion there
1065 2015-10-22T20:06:06  <jonasschnelli> sipa: +1
1066 2015-10-22T20:06:09  <btcdrak> +!
1067 2015-10-22T20:06:10  <btcdrak> +1
1068 2015-10-22T20:06:23  <jonasschnelli> for a wallet, yes. But not for the blockstore
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1070 2015-10-22T20:06:54  <jonasschnelli> (even for a wallet we would consider using a hashed append only db like sipas logdb patch)
1071 2015-10-22T20:07:11  <sipa> we are not talking about the wallet at all
1072 2015-10-22T20:07:19  <jonasschnelli> right
1073 2015-10-22T20:08:41  <Luke-Jr> disagree with moving it to #bitcoin-core-dev, as this is a protocol issue
1074 2015-10-22T20:08:42  <btcdrak> For reference this was the discussion today about sqlite: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-core-dev/2015-10-22/?msg=52492157&page=2
1075 2015-10-22T20:08:50  * btcdrak goes back to #bitcoin-core-dev
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1078 2015-10-22T20:10:57  <BlueMatt> Luke-Jr: HUH?
1079 2015-10-22T20:12:25  <maaku> BlueMatt: consensus code
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1185 2015-10-22T22:42:19  <kanzure> phantomcircuit: trying to decide whether to reject your two-sentence email. tough decision!
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1187 2015-10-22T22:42:51  <phantomcircuit> kanzure, benchmarks :) need more benchmarks
1188 2015-10-22T22:43:14  <kanzure> yeah but... two sentence "+1" email, against how many subscribers? dunno.
1189 2015-10-22T22:43:17  <kanzure> approving anyway..
1190 2015-10-22T22:43:46  <btcdrak> I thought +1's were discouraged
1191 2015-10-22T22:43:55  <kanzure> it's not really a +1
1192 2015-10-22T22:44:00  <kanzure> but it's close :-)
1193 2015-10-22T22:47:11  <Luke-Jr> this moderation thing isn't working out. even now noise is getting approved. :P jk
1194 2015-10-22T22:47:28  <phantomcircuit> ha
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1203 2015-10-22T23:04:39  <btcdrak> kanzure: Luke_Jr: yeah I think we need to be quite strict to set the bar. Certainly that is how I understood Rusty's take on it.
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