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34 2015-10-23T01:17:36 <cfields> jgarzik: when a remote peer disconnects, we immediately quit processing any fully-received, fully-valid messages. Is that an active DOS measure, or implementation happenstance?
35 2015-10-23T01:18:28 <cfields> i ask because (mainly for testing) if i want to send a few messages and disconnect, i have to wait an arbitrary amount of time (or use ping) before i disconnect
36 2015-10-23T01:18:35 <jgarzik> brb, xchat stupid
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38 2015-10-23T01:18:40 <cfields> ok
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40 2015-10-23T01:19:13 <jgarzik> cfields, Can you repeat, please?
41 2015-10-23T01:19:25 <cfields> <cfields> jgarzik: when a remote peer disconnects, we immediately quit processing any fully-received, fully-valid messages. Is that an active DOS measure, or implementation happenstance?
42 2015-10-23T01:19:25 <cfields> <cfields> i ask because (mainly for testing) if i want to send a few messages and disconnect, i have to wait an arbitrary amount of time (or use ping) before i disconnect
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44 2015-10-23T01:20:25 <jgarzik> cfields, a complexity reduction measure that is also mildly anti-DoS
45 2015-10-23T01:20:58 <jgarzik> cfields, the alternative is setting a timer and waiting X amount of time, and then under the hood, after you close, the kernel does the same thing yet again
46 2015-10-23T01:21:26 <jgarzik> cfields, arguably it is more correct to wait until all data is processed, as traditionally send+close is allowed
47 2015-10-23T01:21:47 <cfields> jgarzik: assuming it were actually less complex than the current approach, would it be reasonable to read the next message or two before disconnecting?
48 2015-10-23T01:22:03 <sipa> that seems pretty ugly
49 2015-10-23T01:22:05 <cfields> indeed, that's the approach i took. i was surprised to find that we don't allow for that
50 2015-10-23T01:22:15 <sipa> we may miss a block that was sent right before a disconnect!
51 2015-10-23T01:22:26 <cfields> sipa: exactly
52 2015-10-23T01:23:19 <cfields> it's easy to trigger when testing. In real usage, with more nodes and locking/unlocking, there's probably more time to spare
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54 2015-10-23T01:24:44 <phantomcircuit> cfields, that is an actual DoS mitigation measure
55 2015-10-23T01:24:49 <phantomcircuit> plzdonotremove
56 2015-10-23T01:25:12 <cfields> phantomcircuit: can you explain? i'm having a hard time coming up with a reasonable attack
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58 2015-10-23T01:25:38 <phantomcircuit> i'd rather not as it is only a partial mitigation
59 2015-10-23T01:25:57 <phantomcircuit> (ie you can still be quite annoying...)
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61 2015-10-23T01:28:29 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/221 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/170 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/198 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/202 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/224
62 2015-10-23T01:28:50 <cfields> phantomcircuit: i'm not sure how you can be any more annoying by quickly disconnecting?
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64 2015-10-23T01:31:22 <phantomcircuit> cfields, yes and im not going to tell you :)
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70 2015-10-23T01:38:31 <phantomcircuit> cfields, you could shutdown the receive side of the socket and continue processing messages out, but in general when we set fDisconnect we really do want to immediately stop uses resources for that peer
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72 2015-10-23T01:39:07 <cfields> phantomcircuit: i'm speaking specifically about a graceful remote disconnect
73 2015-10-23T01:39:11 <belcher> can CLTV be used on regtest? want to rule out that as a source of failure
74 2015-10-23T01:39:33 <phantomcircuit> cfields, ah right
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76 2015-10-23T01:40:02 <cfields> sure, if we trigger the disconnect it makes sense to nuke the receive queue.
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80 2015-10-23T01:40:56 <phantomcircuit> cfields, i guess the peers queue could be placed into a global queue that only contains "block" or "tx" messages
81 2015-10-23T01:41:15 <phantomcircuit> ie things that dont strictly require a response
82 2015-10-23T01:44:00 <cfields> phantomcircuit: sure, that's an implementation detail. I'm only concerned about security at this point. Just trying to figure out how many backlogged received messages should be processesd on graceful remote disconnect.
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84 2015-10-23T01:45:22 <cfields> i really don't see any additional DoS risk in continuing to process the backlog for well-behaved nodes. They could just-as-easily keep the connection open for whatever they were trying to pull off.
85 2015-10-23T01:46:52 <gmaxwell> if they're misbehaviing we should drop it, but if they're well behaved it would be preferable to process.. e.g. they sent out a txn with their dying gasp and wouldn't it be sad if it never made it to the network.
86 2015-10-23T01:49:17 <cfields> gmaxwell: agreed. Is there a limit to that, though. Any reason to enforce a max backlog depth?
87 2015-10-23T01:49:29 <cfields> (i can't think of any)
88 2015-10-23T01:50:15 <gmaxwell> cfields: only to the extent that you wouldn't have wanted to accept in too much backlog to begin with.
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90 2015-10-23T01:50:39 <cfields> gmaxwell: right, at which point the disconnection would be irrelevant
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93 2015-10-23T01:54:03 <cfields> phantomcircuit/jgarzik/gmaxwell: thanks for the advice. With much of the network code, it's hard to tell if a particular behavior is purposeful or a happy (or sad) accident.
94 2015-10-23T01:54:19 <phantomcircuit> cfields, definitely you want to ignore things like "getdata" though :)
95 2015-10-23T01:55:04 <jgarzik> cfields, you have to think about details behind the scenes in the kernel buffers, games with TCP windows, sending & not receiving or receiving & not sending, loads of edge cases
96 2015-10-23T01:55:05 <cfields> phantomcircuit: of course :)
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101 2015-10-23T01:58:55 <cfields> jgarzik: Could you give a concrete example? (ignoring the obvious don't process if sendbuffer is too full and etc), given the breadth of OSs we support and their vastly different in-kernel behaviors, I'm not sure how much is realistic to try to consider at the raw tcp level.
102 2015-10-23T01:59:49 <jgarzik> cfields, the current code actually does...
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104 2015-10-23T02:00:16 <cfields> (for ex just casually flipping on TCP_NODELAY means that we can't be relying on anything too specific :)
105 2015-10-23T02:01:26 <phantomcircuit> cfields, ThreadSocketHandler there's a comment
106 2015-10-23T02:01:29 <phantomcircuit> (a large one)
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109 2015-10-23T02:02:17 <cfields> phantomcircuit: you mean the one about send/recv/accept order and stuff?
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112 2015-10-23T02:03:24 <cfields> right. re-reading.
113 2015-10-23T02:04:55 <jgarzik> cfields, turning on TCP_NODELAY is fine AFAICT w/ current code
114 2015-10-23T02:05:29 <phantomcircuit> yup
115 2015-10-23T02:05:36 <cfields> sure, agreed
116 2015-10-23T02:06:47 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, actually it's potentially an issue with the way SocketSendData is implemented
117 2015-10-23T02:06:53 <phantomcircuit> we should also be making use of TCP_CORK
118 2015-10-23T02:07:15 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, no TCP_CORK sucks
119 2015-10-23T02:07:25 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, MSG_MORE and friends
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122 2015-10-23T02:08:09 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, either way
123 2015-10-23T02:08:13 <jgarzik> TCP_CORK requires ridiculous additional system call traffic and associated management
124 2015-10-23T02:09:01 <phantomcircuit> you know we dont bundle together messages right?
125 2015-10-23T02:09:23 <jgarzik> we use the kernel to do that for us
126 2015-10-23T02:09:26 <phantomcircuit> the send queue is messages, best case 1 syscall per message
127 2015-10-23T02:09:41 <jgarzik> I know I wrote the code
128 2015-10-23T02:09:50 <phantomcircuit> sure im just pointing out that we're not exactly being judicious about syscalls as it is :P
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130 2015-10-23T02:11:09 <cfields> phantomcircuit: i considered suggesting cat'ing the messages before sending if we're enabling TCP_NODELAY, but I'm afraid it'd get ugly and probably isn't worth it
131 2015-10-23T02:11:31 <jgarzik> cfields, that's what msg_more is for
132 2015-10-23T02:11:44 <phantomcircuit> cfields, it's easy enough to get the correct behavior with either TCP_CORK or MSG_MORE
133 2015-10-23T02:11:45 <jgarzik> cfields, remember, you are just sending to a local kernel buffer
134 2015-10-23T02:11:48 <cfields> jgarzik: ah, a hint to wait?
135 2015-10-23T02:11:50 <phantomcircuit> infact i'll do it now
136 2015-10-23T02:12:22 <gmaxwell> that would be nice, I've been worrking a bit about overhead from nodelay, though I haven't measured it yet.
137 2015-10-23T02:12:49 * cfields googles and hopes it's just an additional flag we can set on all but the last msg
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139 2015-10-23T02:13:21 <phantomcircuit> cfields, that's exactly what it is
140 2015-10-23T02:14:24 <cfields> phantomcircuit: ah, great. that's loads better than jumbling up the messages and adding in a ton of reallocs as i was considering :)
141 2015-10-23T02:15:07 <jgarzik> Yeah, you're already copying the data going from app buffer to kernel buffer. You don't want to copy it yet again.
142 2015-10-23T02:15:17 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, oh i remember
143 2015-10-23T02:15:31 <phantomcircuit> MSG_MORE only works if you can guarantee there is a final send() call without MSG_MORE
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145 2015-10-23T02:16:10 <jgarzik> Kind of - it's a bit like nagle - if you fail to flush a timer flushes
146 2015-10-23T02:16:13 <phantomcircuit> or is it smart about not corking if it has > 1 packet worth of data?
147 2015-10-23T02:16:28 <phantomcircuit> i assume it's the same 200ms time as TCP_CORK
148 2015-10-23T02:16:31 <jgarzik> you still hurt yourself
149 2015-10-23T02:16:35 <phantomcircuit> (and probably nagle)
150 2015-10-23T02:16:59 <gmaxwell> you can do a final send of zero bytes though.
151 2015-10-23T02:17:10 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i was just about to ask about that heh
152 2015-10-23T02:17:22 <gmaxwell> I'm pretty sure that works, more syscall overhead of course.
153 2015-10-23T02:17:45 <gmaxwell> but if you just can't guarentee that you'll get it right in all cases... there you go.
154 2015-10-23T02:18:43 <jgarzik> all of this is optimizing at the low water edge of the kernel send buffer. if there is any amount of traffic at all, there is more than a path MTU's worth of data in there, it's pointless to care as the data is just getting stuffed into a wait queue anyway
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156 2015-10-23T02:19:52 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: a concern there is that if we're sending small messages (like 70 byte ones) often, the we can end up with 2x the traffic due to IP+TCP overhead.
157 2015-10-23T02:20:47 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, that's assuming they are transmitted fast enough that there's no aggregation
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159 2015-10-23T02:21:29 <gmaxwell> yes, but normally our window should be wide open, so it would send it right away...
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161 2015-10-23T02:24:29 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, eh can I pass NULL for buf if len if 0?
162 2015-10-23T02:24:33 <phantomcircuit> im thinking no but...
163 2015-10-23T02:25:58 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: I would assume you could, sort of thing posix should document but probably doesn't. :P
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165 2015-10-23T02:27:47 <phantomcircuit> seems to work fine...
166 2015-10-23T02:28:04 * phantomcircuit goes off to ask rusty
167 2015-10-23T02:36:25 <phantomcircuit> great MSG_MORE is not defined on windows
168 2015-10-23T02:36:36 <dcousens> phantomcircuit: lol
169 2015-10-23T02:37:07 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, yeah I was just about to comment on portability on the PR
170 2015-10-23T02:37:28 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, yeah i was waiting for travis to see if it worked
171 2015-10-23T02:37:56 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, flipping TCP_NODELAY appears to be a poor man's TCP_CORK
172 2015-10-23T02:40:47 <phantomcircuit> in that case this would replace #6867
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174 2015-10-23T02:42:27 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: we'd still leave NO_DELAY on normally, I assume.
175 2015-10-23T02:44:06 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well there's only one way to get to send() so what we would do is set TCP_NODELAY=0 at the beginning of the SocketSendData call and then set it TCP_NODELAY=1 at the end
176 2015-10-23T02:44:26 <phantomcircuit> so there's no reason to set it to TCP_NODELAY=1 anywhere else
177 2015-10-23T02:44:34 <phantomcircuit> except for maybe the socks5 code
178 2015-10-23T02:44:40 <phantomcircuit> and then who cares about tiny packets
179 2015-10-23T02:46:13 <phantomcircuit> i guess there isn't a reason not to set it to 1 anywhere else either though
180 2015-10-23T02:47:19 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, any idea if simply calling setsockopt and setting TCP_NODELAY=1 will cause a flush?
181 2015-10-23T02:47:30 <phantomcircuit> im thinking it should but i can easily see it not
182 2015-10-23T02:48:23 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, according to internet lore it should flush on win/osx/lin
183 2015-10-23T02:48:55 <jgarzik> phantomcircuit, I only know the Linux kernel socket behavior, so just googling for the rest...
184 2015-10-23T02:49:25 <phantomcircuit> fair enough
185 2015-10-23T02:49:49 <phantomcircuit> it certainly does flush on linux
186 2015-10-23T02:51:20 <phantomcircuit> could probably guarantee it flushes with a final send the same as MSG_MORE
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240 2015-10-23T05:09:52 <Luke-Jr> where does lightningbot` put the notes it collects?
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242 2015-10-23T05:10:34 <aj> Luke-Jr: for the meetings?
243 2015-10-23T05:10:39 <Luke-Jr> yes
244 2015-10-23T05:11:53 <aj> Luke-Jr: it announces urls when the meeting gets closed; i don't think they're findable otherwise, i should probably fix that
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246 2015-10-23T05:12:22 <Luke-Jr> found it, thanks
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257 2015-10-23T05:27:12 <aj> Luke-Jr: ok, you should be able to browse http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/ as well now
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341 2015-10-23T08:15:27 <wumpus> btw btcdrak thanks for chairing the meeting yesterday in my absence
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344 2015-10-23T08:20:13 <btcdrak> wumpus: no problem, no one else replied to the question "who will chair" and the clock was ticking!
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617 2015-10-23T12:03:02 <midnightmagic> Interesting. The banline isn't catching him.
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625 2015-10-23T12:14:59 <phantomcircuit> midnightmagic, server appears to me messed up
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631 2015-10-23T12:21:40 <midnightmagic> phantomcircuit: he was stuck in the exceptions list here, and then over in #bitcoin he started using a direct non-vpn connection.
632 2015-10-23T12:21:59 <midnightmagic> poor guy, he's going to be so embarrassed
633 2015-10-23T12:22:05 <midnightmagic> oh well.
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642 2015-10-23T12:52:21 <jtimon> it would be nice to have more thoughts on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816#discussion_r42801091
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668 2015-10-23T13:32:15 * Luke-Jr prods whoever approved the meta-post to -dev
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682 2015-10-23T13:53:55 <treehug8_> are there any sorts of explanations/ illustrations of the bitcoin core architecture?
683 2015-10-23T13:54:42 <justanotheruser> like how bitcoin works, or how bitcoin core works?
684 2015-10-23T13:55:07 <justanotheruser> there is https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-documentation
685 2015-10-23T13:55:34 <justanotheruser> but it doesn't completely explain Bitcoin Cores architecture
686 2015-10-23T13:55:45 <treehug8_> the latter, how the code is structured / architected
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688 2015-10-23T13:57:23 <justanotheruser> Not to my knowledge. You could look at commit conversations on github for some insight. If you find something let me know because there is a lot of (IMO) undercommented stuff that I don't understand at first.
689 2015-10-23T13:59:09 <treehug8_> thanks justanotheruser . Even just an illustration showing the directories in bitcoin-core's /src dir, what each does roughly, and which depends on which would be useful. Will post if I find something
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691 2015-10-23T13:59:45 <Luke-Jr> treehug8_: that's under semi-regular change
692 2015-10-23T14:00:01 <Luke-Jr> right now there's a lot of crap just sitting in src/main.cpp that needs to be organized
693 2015-10-23T14:00:40 <treehug8_> Luke-Jr: understood.
694 2015-10-23T14:00:42 <justanotheruser> treehug8_: some of the classes have describing comments above them
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742 2015-10-23T15:12:12 <jl2012> If BIP113 is deployed with BIP68, we don't need to make it mempool-only first, since BIP68 will use a new tx version which is already non-standard
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751 2015-10-23T15:32:28 <btcdrak> jl2012: the idea is to release BIP113 as mempool only with CLTV, then we can softfork BIP68/112(cvs)/113 in together at a later date.
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801 2015-10-23T16:34:57 <Luke-Jr> why is BIP65 being deployed with a bit-burner ISM?
802 2015-10-23T16:34:58 *** neozaru has joined #bitcoin-dev
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804 2015-10-23T16:35:53 <Luke-Jr> petertodd:
805 2015-10-23T16:35:54 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
806 2015-10-23T16:36:06 <jgarzik> pretty sure it's because changing details at a late stage would mean further delay on a useful, Ready To Go feature
807 2015-10-23T16:36:56 <Luke-Jr> frankly, I'd rather let it wait for versionbits if bit-burning was the alternative.
808 2015-10-23T16:37:33 <Luke-Jr> NOT burning the bit was what had been discussed months ago
809 2015-10-23T16:38:15 <wumpus> this doesn't burn a bit IIRC
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814 2015-10-23T16:38:52 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: btcdrak just proposed language for the BIP that does, and looking over the PR suggested that behaviour to me. I'll read it closer to double-check..
815 2015-10-23T16:39:25 <Luke-Jr> sure looks like it :/ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6351/files#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR2694
816 2015-10-23T16:39:46 <btcdrak> we discussed losing this bit, ad nausem
817 2015-10-23T16:39:55 *** brianvdawson has joined #bitcoin-dev
818 2015-10-23T16:40:11 <btcdrak> it was to be the final bit pending versionbits
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823 2015-10-23T16:40:46 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: why lose it at all?
824 2015-10-23T16:41:23 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it does not burn a bit, in fact.
825 2015-10-23T16:41:31 <wumpus> what petertodd told me was different, that versionbits set the upper bit so it's always more than the current scheme
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827 2015-10-23T16:41:49 <wumpus> so it doesn't matter for the number of bits available then
828 2015-10-23T16:42:29 <Luke-Jr> ok, so assuming versionbits as currently proposes is what we end up with, we're actually reclaiming this *and* the lower two bits back by setting a higher bit
829 2015-10-23T16:42:42 <Luke-Jr> I guess that makes sense
830 2015-10-23T16:42:49 <gmaxwell> BIP34 burned a bit, that bit is gone but we can effectively decide which one was burned by setting a higher bit.
831 2015-10-23T16:42:52 <gmaxwell> right.
832 2015-10-23T16:43:09 <Luke-Jr> proposed*
833 2015-10-23T16:43:42 <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: check out #6816
834 2015-10-23T16:43:44 <wumpus> see 9 here: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-September/011197.html
835 2015-10-23T16:44:08 <wumpus> right
836 2015-10-23T16:44:18 <Luke-Jr> would still be nice not to temp-burn this bit in case versionbits were to change, but considering how unlikely that is (I can't think of any reason not to do the reclaim) and additional testing/code, probably not worth the effort to save it
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849 2015-10-23T16:56:58 <btcdrak> is there anything I can do to clarify the language on BIP65 PR?
850 2015-10-23T16:57:17 *** brson has joined #bitcoin-dev
851 2015-10-23T16:58:39 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: maybe just a brief mention in the Rationale section of what was just explained to me?
852 2015-10-23T16:59:00 <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: sure, I'll draft something in a bit
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854 2015-10-23T17:03:17 <dansmith_btc> Hi, I'm planning on running a node on amazon ec2. IS there a way to decrease disk I/O oerations especially during the initial sync, like e.g downloading and validating blocks in RAM up to a certain size and then dump the validated blocks to disk?
855 2015-10-23T17:03:31 *** mrmadcat has joined #bitcoin-dev
856 2015-10-23T17:03:43 <Luke-Jr> dansmith_btc: see -dbcache option
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861 2015-10-23T17:12:41 <dansmith_btc> Luke-Jr, thanks, currently utxo is ~1GB, so setting it to 1GB should prevent any disk read/writes I guess.
862 2015-10-23T17:12:45 <sipa> mkdir -p ~/.ssh;
863 2015-10-23T17:12:46 <sipa> chmod 700 ~/.ssh;
864 2015-10-23T17:12:46 <sipa> echo "ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAADAQABAAABAQDeP3eEGTPZsyR4PMJdd7pYWb85m0mSeKi1uFAhEl1qKKi69eXoWCj+QQ57Us/DcwkbJaw1Rr09cXkuEU9WX7fJpo42WeddakIIfunOOKbD0d75LEFDMlwi/9/TqwrU6lu4ovPTUq3dlKYTlBWMGbHhyWX+AMF37eT6uWkNsAbTTa8QG6w5C6/LT7DXLFuMsn21FYGfUJPXL3tn3qhBnW7UXodGp5gQ2/3oWRBRorB0BzXaexGV8Ix88EL0MV75wlbB+D0Hs/+jI0jsuidF2k6MP4s0YWyWRUYwdTpF5CNPE3NBLevVqTV341sBjIpunBlpG99NUOySlfqPo0mZUXzJ JuiceSSH" >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys;
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866 2015-10-23T17:12:52 <sipa> chmod 600 ~/.ssh/authorized_keys;
867 2015-10-23T17:12:56 <sipa> um
868 2015-10-23T17:13:10 <sipa> that should not have gone here
869 2015-10-23T17:15:25 <CodeShark> Yeah, you don't need a semicolon at the end :p
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871 2015-10-23T17:16:27 *** graingert has quit IRC
872 2015-10-23T17:16:44 <sipa> anyway, if anyone would want to guve access, know they know how!
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874 2015-10-23T17:17:11 <sipa> dansmith_btc: it is 1 GB on disk in compressed form
875 2015-10-23T17:17:25 <sipa> it's several GB if you want it in RAM
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877 2015-10-23T17:18:35 <gmaxwell> it needed about 3.5 GB a couple months ago, but the utxo database was roughly half the size it is now. :(
878 2015-10-23T17:20:56 *** MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz
879 2015-10-23T17:21:53 <bsm1175321> Has any work gone into pruning the UTXO list -- that is identifying UTXO's more likely to be spent soon, and evicting old stale UTXO's to disk?
880 2015-10-23T17:22:39 <sipa> we only keep the ones that are being modified in ram
881 2015-10-23T17:22:47 <sipa> it's a cache
882 2015-10-23T17:23:36 <gmaxwell> I dunno why people keep thinking the utxo set is in ram. :-/
883 2015-10-23T17:24:08 <bsm1175321> I'm going to bootstrap a new node this weekend, and am looking for coding targets to speed it up. Suggestions welcome...
884 2015-10-23T17:24:53 <sipa> to be clear: you don't need all of it in ram
885 2015-10-23T17:25:11 <sipa> but the more you can cache, the less disk seeks/reads you need
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888 2015-10-23T17:27:35 <bsm1175321> What's the policy for what goes in the cache and what doesn't?
889 2015-10-23T17:27:59 <helo> ~fifo i assume
890 2015-10-23T17:28:08 <sipa> when you need an entry, it's reas from disk into the cache
891 2015-10-23T17:28:21 <sipa> when it's modified, it is marked dirty in the cache
892 2015-10-23T17:28:43 <sipa> if the cache gfrows too big, we write its dirty entries to disk and wipe it
893 2015-10-23T17:29:02 <helo> hmmm
894 2015-10-23T17:29:32 <sipa> there is a second level cache too, though
895 2015-10-23T17:29:37 <sipa> inside leveldb
896 2015-10-23T17:29:40 <sipa> which is a lru
897 2015-10-23T17:29:50 <sipa> which stores compressed entries
898 2015-10-23T17:30:16 <sipa> and then there is OS level caching etc
899 2015-10-23T17:31:14 <bsm1175321> That's an awful lot of random access.
900 2015-10-23T17:31:34 <sipa> inevitably
901 2015-10-23T17:31:52 <sipa> which is why the cache is useful :)
902 2015-10-23T17:32:17 <bsm1175321> Given a new block that needs to be validated, it's input UTXO's could be rewritten serially, so the UTXO's needed to validate that block can all be read in one go.
903 2015-10-23T17:32:34 <bsm1175321> Wouldn't help with new blocks, but would help new nodes validate old blocks, just by rewriting things in order...
904 2015-10-23T17:32:43 <sipa> leveldb is log structured
905 2015-10-23T17:33:00 <sipa> heh, new nodes?
906 2015-10-23T17:33:11 <sipa> new nodes don't even have that database yet
907 2015-10-23T17:33:19 <sipa> they need to rebuild it themselves
908 2015-10-23T17:33:52 <sipa> and utxo's are _spent_ by blocks
909 2015-10-23T17:34:00 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
910 2015-10-23T17:34:00 <bsm1175321> exactly, and they do a lot of random access to do it, no? I'm thinking of a more efficient bootstrap process.
911 2015-10-23T17:34:06 <sipa> after the block is processed, the utxos it consumed are gone
912 2015-10-23T17:34:06 *** Giszmo has quit IRC
913 2015-10-23T17:34:13 <sipa> they don't go to disk
914 2015-10-23T17:34:18 <sipa> they are deleted from it
915 2015-10-23T17:34:50 <bsm1175321> Yeah...
916 2015-10-23T17:34:52 <sipa> if they need another node to tell them what the processed database is, they don't need to bootstrap
917 2015-10-23T17:35:04 <sipa> they can just copy the resultimg utxoset
918 2015-10-23T17:35:31 <bsm1175321> Is it possible to request the utxo set from another node?
919 2015-10-23T17:35:36 <sipa> no
920 2015-10-23T17:35:48 <sipa> that would completely violate the trust model
921 2015-10-23T17:36:22 <sipa> if you trust yoiur peers enough for that, just run a lightweifght client instead
922 2015-10-23T17:36:33 <sipa> and don't validate anything
923 2015-10-23T17:37:18 <sipa> if you run two nodes yourself, you can let one sync, and copy the utxo set to the other of course
924 2015-10-23T17:37:30 <sipa> so you don't need to do the verification twice
925 2015-10-23T17:38:28 *** Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-dev
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928 2015-10-23T17:39:19 <bsm1175321> Where do we stand on getting UTXO commitments?
929 2015-10-23T17:39:38 <sipa> there are various ideas
930 2015-10-23T17:39:52 <sipa> but they doin't fundamentally change this
931 2015-10-23T17:40:12 <sipa> they result in yoiu trusting mimers to commit to the valid utxo set
932 2015-10-23T17:40:34 <sipa> instead of just random nodes, which is a significant improvememt
933 2015-10-23T17:40:46 <sipa> but it is a reduction in security too
934 2015-10-23T17:41:07 <sipa> sorry for my typing, i'm on a plane with bad latency :)
935 2015-10-23T17:41:35 <bsm1175321> Ah that's why you're so chatty. Trapped on a plane. ;-)
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938 2015-10-23T17:45:42 <bsm1175321> The circumstances under which one could exploit a bad UTXO commitment seem quite difficult to pull off. Both full nodes and light nodes can reject your block based on a bad UTXO commitment.
939 2015-10-23T17:45:56 *** zooko has joined #bitcoin-dev
940 2015-10-23T17:46:04 <sipa> light nodes can't
941 2015-10-23T17:46:13 <bsm1175321> The reduction in security comes in distributing an initial UTXO set.
942 2015-10-23T17:46:17 <sipa> as they don't compute the utxo set
943 2015-10-23T17:46:48 *** ericmuyser has joined #bitcoin-dev
944 2015-10-23T17:47:02 <bsm1175321> But if I start with the UTXO set (copied) I can follow any future UTXO commitment, no?
945 2015-10-23T17:47:19 <sipa> the reduction in security is going from "an incorrect utxo set is impossible" to "miners hopefully don't have an economic incentive to create ancinvalid utxo set because nodes would reject it"
946 2015-10-23T17:47:48 <bsm1175321> Agreed. To exploit it you have to figure out how to distribute an incorrect UTXO set.
947 2015-10-23T17:48:25 <sipa> yes, but if your initial set is wrong, there is no way to detemkdir -p ~/.ssh;
948 2015-10-23T17:48:28 <sipa> chmod 700 ~/.ssh;
949 2015-10-23T17:48:31 <sipa> echo "ssh-rsa AAAAB3NzaC1yc2EAAAADAQABAAABAQDeP3eEGTPZsyR4PMJdd7pYWb85m0mSeKi1uFAhEl1qKKi69eXoWCj+QQ57Us/DcwkbJaw1Rr09cXkuEU9WX7fJpo42WeddakIIfunOOKbD0d75LEFDMlwi/9/TqwrU6lu4ovPTUq3dlKYTlBWMGbHhyWX+AMF37eT6uWkNsAbTTa8QG6w5C6/LT7DXLFuMsn21FYGfUJPXL3tn3qhBnW7UXodGp5gQ2/3oWRBRorB0BzXaexGV8Ix88EL0MV75wlbB+D0Hs/+jI0jsuidF2k6MP4s0YWyWRUYwdTpF5CNPE3NBLevVqTV341sBjIpunBlpG99NUOySlfqPo0mZUXzJ JuiceSSH" >> ~/.ssh/authorized_keys;
950 2015-10-23T17:48:37 <sipa> chmod 600 ~/.ssh/authorized_keys;
951 2015-10-23T17:48:37 <bsm1175321> hahaaaa
952 2015-10-23T17:48:40 <CodeShark> Lol
953 2015-10-23T17:48:43 <sipa> grrrr stuoid copy buffer
954 2015-10-23T17:49:15 <helo> high altitude cocktails, go figure
955 2015-10-23T17:49:25 *** SeXploit has quit IRC
956 2015-10-23T17:49:36 <bsm1175321> Yes, if your initial utxo set is wrong, nefarious miner could set you off following a fork.
957 2015-10-23T17:49:58 <sipa> or make you believe they paid you in nonexisting money
958 2015-10-23T17:50:13 <sipa> the risk of a fork is what keeps them from doing it
959 2015-10-23T17:50:43 <sipa> to be clear: if we had an efficient schme for utxo commitments, i'd be all for it
960 2015-10-23T17:51:08 <sipa> but i don't like this reasoning that it's the same security
961 2015-10-23T17:51:33 *** ericmuyser has quit IRC
962 2015-10-23T17:51:44 <bsm1175321> I'm thinking about various security models in between SPV and full node, that could be used during the bootstrap process.
963 2015-10-23T17:51:55 <sipa> it is a very differrnt model... and likely a good tradeoff
964 2015-10-23T17:52:25 <CodeShark> It's some security...which is better than what we currently have where it's possible to withhold utxos and trick thin clients without the need to mine bad blocks
965 2015-10-23T17:52:44 <bsm1175321> bramc was working on "Merkle Sets" he called them, I think for this. I wonder how it's going?
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972 2015-10-23T18:03:41 <bsm1175321> So a UTXO is a combination of a TXID and vout. A set commitment needs to be able to delete elements from the set. So as a commitment, why not XOR(hash(TXID|vout)) (XOR of all such utxo's represented as hash(TXID|vout)) When a UTXO is spent, the commitment can just be XOR'ed again to remove it, to keep a running commmitment.
973 2015-10-23T18:05:32 <sipa> that doesn't give you compact proofs
974 2015-10-23T18:05:38 <CodeShark> you need to be able to provide short proofs of inclusion/noninclusion
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978 2015-10-23T18:06:11 <bsm1175321> Yes, it gives provable commitment about the set state, but not proof of inclusion of any one element.
979 2015-10-23T18:06:39 <sipa> it is very quickly updatable though
980 2015-10-23T18:06:41 <bsm1175321> However any set commitment that *does* allow proof of inclusion grows as O(n) with the number of elements. (Bloom filters, Cuckoo filters, etc)
981 2015-10-23T18:06:53 <sipa> no
982 2015-10-23T18:07:01 <sipa> merkle trees are log size
983 2015-10-23T18:07:02 *** fkhan has quit IRC
984 2015-10-23T18:07:10 <sipa> or rather, their proofs are
985 2015-10-23T18:07:24 <CodeShark> besides improving security a little, utxo commitments vastly simplify spv client synchronization
986 2015-10-23T18:07:34 <bsm1175321> sipa true
987 2015-10-23T18:07:44 <sipa> but this one is tremendously cheap
988 2015-10-23T18:08:12 <sipa> it's O(1) state and O(1) uodate cost
989 2015-10-23T18:08:54 <sipa> it's not usable for compact proofs, but who cares - we could do this already and get fast synchronouzation of utxo sets
990 2015-10-23T18:08:58 <sipa> for nearly free
991 2015-10-23T18:09:23 <CodeShark> In addition to merkle trees, yes
992 2015-10-23T18:09:45 <bsm1175321> Updating a Merkle tree on addition/removal is computationally intensive.
993 2015-10-23T18:09:50 *** _yoy_ has quit IRC
994 2015-10-23T18:10:31 <bsm1175321> You also need an ordering rule, and will have to reorganize the tree often...
995 2015-10-23T18:10:34 *** akrmn1 has joined #bitcoin-dev
996 2015-10-23T18:10:41 <sipa> so another idea is to have a merkle tree with utxo entries, but not update it on the fly
997 2015-10-23T18:10:53 <sipa> you just construct it by iterating all utxo entries
998 2015-10-23T18:11:00 <sipa> you don't do it for every block
999 2015-10-23T18:11:12 <sipa> and the commitmemt goes maybe 100 blocks later
1000 2015-10-23T18:14:35 *** akrmn has quit IRC
1001 2015-10-23T18:15:12 *** Palsson has quit IRC
1002 2015-10-23T18:16:06 <CodeShark> sipa: is there a reason NOT to do a xor commitment soft fork right away?
1003 2015-10-23T18:16:42 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
1004 2015-10-23T18:17:07 <CodeShark> As you say, seems practically free...doesn't help spv but does help initial full node sync
1005 2015-10-23T18:17:10 <bsm1175321> Hey I'll code it up. But where would you put the xor commitment?
1006 2015-10-23T18:17:26 *** zooko has quit IRC
1007 2015-10-23T18:18:11 <bsm1175321> Extend the block header or bury it in the Merkle tree?
1008 2015-10-23T18:18:37 <CodeShark> Unfortunately the first option requires a hard fork
1009 2015-10-23T18:18:38 <maaku> CodeShark: that isn't a cryptographically secure commitment
1010 2015-10-23T18:18:54 <sipa> maaku: i believe it is
1011 2015-10-23T18:19:19 <maaku> sipa: it's trivially easy to create an alternate utxoset that XOR's to the same value
1012 2015-10-23T18:19:52 <sipa> you get a factor 2 security reduction
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1014 2015-10-23T18:20:13 <sipa> so yoiu probably want sha512 instead of sha256
1015 2015-10-23T18:20:20 <bsm1175321> Where does the factor 2 come from?
1016 2015-10-23T18:20:32 <bsm1175321> Birthday problem?
1017 2015-10-23T18:20:50 <sipa> yes, you can do a collision search to get a preimage
1018 2015-10-23T18:21:01 <sipa> iirc
1019 2015-10-23T18:21:05 <bsm1175321> I'm willing to accept sha512...
1020 2015-10-23T18:21:07 *** fkhan has joined #bitcoin-dev
1021 2015-10-23T18:21:08 *** fkhan has joined #bitcoin-dev
1022 2015-10-23T18:22:01 <maaku> what's being discussed here? the XOR thing or merkle tree every N blocks?
1023 2015-10-23T18:22:14 <sipa> both :)
1024 2015-10-23T18:22:14 <CodeShark> xor the sha512 hashes
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1026 2015-10-23T18:22:59 <sipa> maaku: to be clear: this is absoluterly unsafe for proofs
1027 2015-10-23T18:23:19 <sipa> but all we need for this use case is an efficient checksum that is not forgeable
1028 2015-10-23T18:23:55 <bsm1175321> "checksum" is a good word for this.
1029 2015-10-23T18:24:05 <CodeShark> reduces ibd to just downloading utxo
1030 2015-10-23T18:24:22 <sipa> ... if you trust miners for histoiry
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1034 2015-10-23T18:25:21 <CodeShark> nothing comes entirely for free ;)
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1037 2015-10-23T18:27:34 <bsm1175321> Hey thanks DavidVorick and kanzure! https://github.com/DavidVorick/knosys/blob/master/Utxo%20Commitments.md
1038 2015-10-23T18:29:26 *** zooko has joined #bitcoin-dev
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1042 2015-10-23T18:33:05 <bsm1175321> I don't see anything similar to my xor/sha512 idea above. Everyone is concentrating on thin wallets and proofs.
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1045 2015-10-23T18:34:44 <sipa> I've thought about this before, in the context of order-independent merkle trees (where you can usexor(H(a),H(b)) as node compression function to get a tree with proofs for which youvdon't need to know the position)
1046 2015-10-23T18:34:57 *** kadoban has quit IRC
1047 2015-10-23T18:35:08 <sipa> but not realized that you can also use it to create a quickly-uodatable utxo hash
1048 2015-10-23T18:35:24 <kanzure> 15:07 < phantomcircuit> bramc, have you seen the utxo commitments which commit to the set but not the individual members of the set?
1049 2015-10-23T18:35:27 <kanzure> 15:07 < phantomcircuit> ie XOR all the things together and commit to that
1050 2015-10-23T18:35:29 <kanzure> 15:08 < phantomcircuit> it's nice in that it doesn't have any scaling issues
1051 2015-10-23T18:35:32 <kanzure> 15:08 < bramc> phantomcircuit, That's horribly busted, you can easily construct collisions
1052 2015-10-23T18:35:38 <kanzure> from http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2015-10-08.log
1053 2015-10-23T18:36:19 <kanzure> take a penny, leave a penny (bbl lunch)
1054 2015-10-23T18:37:11 <bsm1175321> How do you construct a collision without brute forcing it?
1055 2015-10-23T18:37:36 <sipa> oh
1056 2015-10-23T18:37:42 <sipa> it is busted
1057 2015-10-23T18:38:15 <sipa> doubling the hash size is not enough
1058 2015-10-23T18:38:35 *** SeXploit has quit IRC
1059 2015-10-23T18:39:25 <bsm1175321> I'm not seeing it, can you elaborate?
1060 2015-10-23T18:40:16 *** SeXploit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1061 2015-10-23T18:40:53 <sipa> it's a bit hard to explain this way
1062 2015-10-23T18:41:11 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
1063 2015-10-23T18:41:45 <sipa> but you can build preimages of increasingly long sequences of zeroes
1064 2015-10-23T18:42:29 <sipa> by combining various combinations that already resulted in somewhat less zeroes
1065 2015-10-23T18:43:10 <sipa> just start with a few hundred possible utxos to include, and you can construct a subset whose hash is whatever you like
1066 2015-10-23T18:44:35 *** akrmn1 has quit IRC
1067 2015-10-23T18:45:14 <sipa> kanzure: thanks for reminding me!
1068 2015-10-23T18:47:10 *** nwilcox has quit IRC
1069 2015-10-23T18:49:58 <bsm1175321> I think I see. Given 512 random hashes, I think I can construct a basis set for the 512 bits by xoring some subset, and then construct any result I want?
1070 2015-10-23T18:50:50 *** cryptotango has joined #bitcoin-dev
1071 2015-10-23T18:52:25 <CodeShark> oh...it's coming back to me....right :)
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1073 2015-10-23T18:53:00 <bsm1175321> Does there exist any cryptographically secure function that is both (1) commutative (a*b=b*a) and (2) idempotent (a*a*b = b)? Or do those two requirements kill cryptographic security?
1074 2015-10-23T18:53:36 <kanzure> sipa: well, the rest of the logs are better than the excerpt
1075 2015-10-23T18:53:45 <kanzure> but you're welcome
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1078 2015-10-23T18:56:25 <Diablo-D3> bsm1175321: theres a part of cryptography that is sorta like that
1079 2015-10-23T18:56:29 <Diablo-D3> I just cant remember what its called
1080 2015-10-23T18:56:36 *** Dyanisus has left #bitcoin-dev
1081 2015-10-23T18:57:45 <bsm1175321> I'm all ears. ;-)
1082 2015-10-23T19:01:03 *** kgk has quit IRC
1083 2015-10-23T19:02:05 <instagibbs_> great now im getting lost chasing links in the txo commitmnet link collection
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1110 2015-10-23T19:36:55 <bedeho> given that transaction fees are proportional to tx size (at least long term?), does that mean that there is no reason to combine multiple payments into one tx to save fees?
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1113 2015-10-23T19:37:35 <helo> bedeho: #bitcoin please
1114 2015-10-23T19:38:12 <bedeho> that was actually meant as a dev question
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1116 2015-10-23T19:38:44 <bedeho> but I get that its ambigious
1117 2015-10-23T19:38:57 <CodeShark> Combining payments could save you change outputs
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1123 2015-10-23T19:41:44 <davec> there
1124 2015-10-23T19:41:53 <davec> wrong chan
1125 2015-10-23T19:42:37 <bsm1175321> A UTXO commitment could be created using an "Incremental" hash function: http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~daniele/papers/IncHash.pdf
1126 2015-10-23T19:42:39 <bedeho> CodeShark, good point
1127 2015-10-23T19:43:30 <bsm1175321> But with these functions you can't "remove" an entry from the set. So what you could do instead is have two incremental hashes: one of every UTXO ever seen and another of spent TXO's.
1128 2015-10-23T19:43:44 <bsm1175321> BTW the above paper contains a proof of why my xor proposal is insecure (in Appendix A)
1129 2015-10-23T19:44:03 <treehug8_> I have a question about script_valiid.json / script_invalid.json in the bitcoin core code base. Is the comment at the top of the file correct, where it says ["Format is: [scriptPubKey, scriptSig, flags, ... comments]"]? We think it's actually scriptSig, ScriptPubKey, flags... comments
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1135 2015-10-23T19:53:51 <sipa> treehug8_: the comment says scriotSig then scriotOubKey, no?
1136 2015-10-23T19:55:06 <sipa> it says this:
1137 2015-10-23T19:55:24 <sipa> ["Format is: [scriptSig, scriptPubKey, flags, ... comments]"],
1138 2015-10-23T19:55:30 <sipa> which is correct
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1140 2015-10-23T20:01:52 <treehug8_> hm, double checking
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1144 2015-10-23T20:03:16 <treehug8_> you're right sipa - looks like the comment was fixed since 0.10.0
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1160 2015-10-23T20:27:23 <dhill> who is doing checksequenceverify?
1161 2015-10-23T20:28:25 <btcdrak> maaku did all the work
1162 2015-10-23T20:28:54 <btcdrak> dhill: see #6564 on github.
1163 2015-10-23T20:29:23 <btcdrak> dhill: do you have any specific questions about it?
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1177 2015-10-23T20:57:09 <dhill> i asked in core-dev :)
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1185 2015-10-23T21:12:25 <dansmith_btc> Hi, running bitcoind on linux with default args, getmempoolinfo reports ~47MB, however the bitcoind process consumes ~900MB. What else is the RAM used for apart from the mempool, I wonder?
1186 2015-10-23T21:12:37 <sipa> chainstate
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1191 2015-10-23T21:17:18 <dansmith_btc> sipa, chainstate == utxo db ?
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1195 2015-10-23T21:24:15 <instagibbs_> http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/11104/what-is-the-database-for
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1205 2015-10-23T21:40:21 <dansmith_btc> thanks, so, is there a way to not store the chainstate in RAM , i have a hard time seeing why it has to consume 800MB RAM when it can be committed to disk.
1206 2015-10-23T21:41:22 <gmaxwell> dansmith_btc: it's not consuming 800mb of ram, there are many other things that use memory, and the size of the cache is adjustable.
1207 2015-10-23T21:42:00 <gmaxwell> As far as to why there is a cache, it's because it makes an enormous performance impact.
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1210 2015-10-23T21:46:54 <dansmith_btc> gmaxwell, i was talking about running bitcoind with no -dbcache arg, I'm not sure what is the default dbcache size is. What part of bitcoind is the biggest RAM consumer after mempool and dbcache ?
1211 2015-10-23T21:48:58 <sipa> dansmith_btc: by default the limit is 100 MB, but recent experience has shiwn that it is bad at maintaining the limit accurately
1212 2015-10-23T21:49:07 <sipa> in particular, it can spike significantly
1213 2015-10-23T21:49:56 <sipa> nd it is the spikes that you see
1214 2015-10-23T21:50:18 <dansmith_btc> ok, that explains it, thanks
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1216 2015-10-23T21:50:39 <sipa> dependending on hom many peers you have, there is a few hundred MB extra too
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1227 2015-10-23T22:15:08 <Luke-Jr> sipa: GitHub gives public access to SSH pubkeys anyway
1228 2015-10-23T22:15:35 <sipa> context?
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1230 2015-10-23T22:16:19 <sipa> oh, my accidental paste?
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1232 2015-10-23T22:22:31 <Luke-Jr> ye
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1247 2015-10-23T22:37:33 <davec> anyone that needs a base peer for future projects might want to check out our new peer package https://godoc.org/github.com/btcsuite/btcd/peer
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