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65 2015-10-29T01:42:02 <paulo_> i would just like to praise the code, it's very readable
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177 2015-10-29T05:12:11 <rusty> CodeShark: Hi! I'm working on a simpler implementation of versionbits, BTW.
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182 2015-10-29T05:26:48 <CodeShark> rusty: oh?
183 2015-10-29T05:27:08 <CodeShark> simpler how?
184 2015-10-29T05:29:11 <rusty> CodeShark: yes, I think it can be significantly simplified. See https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin/tree/bip-9-versionbits
185 2015-10-29T05:29:32 <rusty> Just got the unit tests to compile now: almost certainly terminally broken.
186 2015-10-29T05:32:03 <rusty> It also doesn't do any caching, that's a separate patch on top/
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188 2015-10-29T05:33:14 <CodeShark> hmm
189 2015-10-29T05:35:08 <CodeShark> you mean using a table?
190 2015-10-29T05:35:17 <CodeShark> is that the crux of the idea?
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193 2015-10-29T05:39:53 <rusty> CodeShark: that's a big part, yes. Also having BIP be an object, so you can ask if it's active fairly trivially.
194 2015-10-29T05:40:08 <rusty> CodeShark: the table for versionbits makes sense, so you can add them trivially.
195 2015-10-29T05:40:44 <CodeShark> I decided against treating the BIPs as objects because the state of the BIP depends on the blockchain branch
196 2015-10-29T05:41:09 <sipa> agree - separate code and data
197 2015-10-29T05:42:19 <sipa> (this is a very uninformed comment, and may or may not be relevant for the code being discussed)
198 2015-10-29T05:43:05 <rusty> sipa: That's OK, you're allowed to be wrong :) virtual bool Active(const CBlockIndex* pblockIndex) const is the only BIP method.
199 2015-10-29T05:43:38 <CodeShark> the state of the BIP is a property of the block - I instead was thinking of the deployments themselves as describing the transition rules
200 2015-10-29T05:43:46 <CodeShark> not the state
201 2015-10-29T05:44:28 <sipa> rusty: you expect these BIP objects being instantiated in main/consensus logic then?
202 2015-10-29T05:44:31 <sipa> as globals?
203 2015-10-29T05:44:44 <rusty> sipa: well, probably softforks.cpp (the new file), but yeah.
204 2015-10-29T05:45:32 <rusty> sipa: for versionbits, (aka struct VersionBitsBIP: public BIP) this is most logical.
205 2015-10-29T05:46:00 <CodeShark> you can describe the transition rules using tables, like you've done - and perhaps that can simplify the description in some ways for the specific cases we're interested in...but we lose polymorphic flexibility
206 2015-10-29T05:46:06 <CodeShark> perhaps that's not so important, though
207 2015-10-29T05:47:35 <CodeShark> we can still wrap this mechanism in an abstract interface, I suppose
208 2015-10-29T05:48:03 <sipa> i'll let you guys come up with something, and review when you agree :p
209 2015-10-29T05:48:06 <rusty> CodeShark: yeah, we're going to want a C++ wrapper when this logic moves into libconsensus anyway.
210 2015-10-29T05:48:38 <CodeShark> I'd love to hear your opinions in any case, sipa :)
211 2015-10-29T05:50:00 <CodeShark> one of the main goals I had was hiding all the specifics of the deployment mechanism from the likes of main.cpp
212 2015-10-29T05:50:24 <CodeShark> i.e. looking at main.cpp there's no trace whether a particular soft fork was deployed using ISM, versionbits, or something else
213 2015-10-29T05:50:37 <sipa> rusty: i really don't care about the actual libconsensus API at this point; but good design will keep chain-specific data separate in chainstate, fork-enabled logic within consensus code, ...
214 2015-10-29T05:51:21 <sipa> CodeShark: that's usually neat software engineering, but i'm not convinced it's something we should thrive for in consensus code... abstractions often hide what is actually going on
215 2015-10-29T05:51:31 <sipa> (not convinced about the opposite either, to be clear)
216 2015-10-29T05:52:02 <CodeShark> sipa: the main reasoning here was that we would be able to support further extensions or variations on the scheme or new schemes without having to touch main.cpp at all
217 2015-10-29T05:52:26 <CodeShark> the logic would be in separate units
218 2015-10-29T05:52:46 <sipa> having the decision logic for softforks itself separated is useful
219 2015-10-29T05:53:03 <sipa> but the code enabled by specific forks... that is just consensus code; hiding it away is a bad idea imho
220 2015-10-29T05:53:13 <CodeShark> oh, yeah - I wasn't suggesting that at all
221 2015-10-29T05:53:26 <CodeShark> for now I've kept the actual consensus code itself in main.cpp
222 2015-10-29T05:53:43 <CodeShark> it's only the decision of whether or not to apply a particular rule that has its logic in a separate unit
223 2015-10-29T05:54:29 <CodeShark> by consensus code, meaning the actual enforcement of the rule itself
224 2015-10-29T05:55:07 <CodeShark> or not just main.cpp - but whatever other units take part in checking the rules
225 2015-10-29T05:55:18 <CodeShark> i.e. script stuff
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228 2015-10-29T06:00:43 <CodeShark> the decision logic should probably actually be part of the block tree index logic - each block header should have associated with it the rules that should be enforced - and the actual checking of blocks done once the block header has been added to the tree
229 2015-10-29T06:02:35 <CodeShark> having a dual block index is sort of ugly...but I wanted to be as noninvasive as possible to existing structures
230 2015-10-29T06:02:59 <sipa> i think the current CBlockIndex is very ugly because it does so many different things
231 2015-10-29T06:03:31 <sipa> it has validation information, disk position information, block headers themselves, and proof-of-work related metadata (chainwork)
232 2015-10-29T06:03:36 <CodeShark> right
233 2015-10-29T06:04:42 <CodeShark> I'd like to redo much of that - but it would require substantial changes to consensus code
234 2015-10-29T06:05:00 <sipa> first things first
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238 2015-10-29T06:08:28 <CodeShark> I'd go as far as not even having a CBlock that inherits from CBlockHeader
239 2015-10-29T06:09:02 <CodeShark> and have a CBlockIndex that points to CBlockHeader instances
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242 2015-10-29T06:10:56 <CodeShark> with caching capabilities
243 2015-10-29T06:12:12 <CodeShark> CBlock should actually consist of a pointer to a CBlockHeader and a transaction vector
244 2015-10-29T06:15:55 <CodeShark> but in the interest of being as noninvasive as possible, I'm using a separate map from CBlockHeader* to rule states (which is not very pretty but requires only a handful of changes to consensus code)
245 2015-10-29T06:16:28 <sipa> that sounds perfectly reasonable to me
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251 2015-10-29T06:33:52 <rusty> Dumb codingstle question: the p and n prefixes.. is there a list of semantics somwhere?
252 2015-10-29T06:34:23 <rusty> And capitalization rules.
253 2015-10-29T06:34:24 <Luke-Jr> rusty: one of the coding style docs, before it was removed
254 2015-10-29T06:34:37 <Luke-Jr> p = pointer; n = number
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256 2015-10-29T06:34:42 <rusty> Luke-Jr: those damned moderators! Oh, wait...
257 2015-10-29T06:36:49 <Luke-Jr> rusty: it's called hungarian notation, but google didn't find the exactly flavour we had quickly
258 2015-10-29T06:37:11 <rusty> Luke-Jr: yeah, I know it, but wondered what variation.
259 2015-10-29T06:37:27 <Luke-Jr> it's not required anymore, in any case
260 2015-10-29T06:38:19 <CodeShark> there's something to be said for prefixing pointers with p, but I always found the n to be a little superfluous :)
261 2015-10-29T06:39:16 <CodeShark> I don't think it's necessary for the variable name to contain the type - pointers do make some sense because it helps with dereferencing
262 2015-10-29T06:39:51 <CodeShark> and to remind you to delete and null
263 2015-10-29T06:40:38 <Luke-Jr> pointers already have * and -> for that ;)
264 2015-10-29T06:41:12 <CodeShark> yeah, point is that it tells you whether to use -> or .
265 2015-10-29T06:41:27 <CodeShark> pobject->method(); vs. object.method();
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269 2015-10-29T06:51:56 <rusty> OK, tests pass. Need to test alerts, add caching and clean up commits. But I've pushed to branch.
270 2015-10-29T06:52:40 <Luke-Jr> Core with Lightning builtin?
271 2015-10-29T06:53:25 <aj> Luke-Jr: that would come under "add caching" i think...
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273 2015-10-29T06:53:46 <Luke-Jr> aj: at least it sounds close by!
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335 2015-10-29T09:10:35 <btcdrak> rusty: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/developer-notes.md
336 2015-10-29T09:12:29 <rusty> btcdrak: thanks!
337 2015-10-29T09:13:03 <btcdrak> rusty: Note your patch has tabs instead of 4xspaces indentation too.
338 2015-10-29T09:13:16 <rusty> btcdrak: yeah, thanks. I'll roll in a fix.
339 2015-10-29T09:14:54 <rusty> sipa: Hmm, I want to make a minor mod to BIP 009. It refers to GetMedianTimePast() of the block in the new period, it should be GetMedianTimePast() on the last block in the period.
340 2015-10-29T09:15:14 <rusty> sipa: I thought GetMedianTimePast(x) was the median for the 11 blocks *before* x. My bad...
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390 2015-10-29T11:10:14 <jtimon> rusty: re notation also f is for booleans (flag), as has been said it is no longer necessary, but I like that one
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394 2015-10-29T11:16:13 <jtimon> CodeShark: rusty sipa does https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bitcoin:master...jtimon:softforks make sense to you as an skeleton for a bip9 implementation? what's new in chain.o (VersionBitsIndex) is unimplemented, as well as AreVersionBitsRecognized() and CalculateState() in softforks. Many things taken from CodeShark's branch but making it libconsensus-freindly (tm). Note that VersionBitsIndex is not used in softforks and
395 2015-10-29T11:16:14 <jtimon> it's out of the consensus folder and namespace (I don't care about having it in chain.o or a new file, I was just being lazzy and didn't want to create a new file).
396 2015-10-29T11:17:52 <jtimon> the most important parts are the Consensus::VersionBits::State struct and the modifications to Consensus::Params, I think that should be enough to implement all the functionality but feel free to propose more things to put there (no pointers though, please)
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399 2015-10-29T11:22:25 <jtimon> I created the consensus dir and Consensus namespace to help with libconsensus work, please don't mess with that: all files in the consensus dir should be almost-consensus-ready (tm), which means they only have unwanted dependencies that are trivial to solve like util.o, or they depend on CBlockIndex or CCoinsViewCache
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401 2015-10-29T11:24:20 <jtimon> please don't put anything that is not "almost-consensus-ready (tm)" in the consensus dir, if there's no hurry to complete libconsensus, then don't hurry in putting things in the consensus dir (although everything on my version of consensus/softfork.o is almost-libconsensus-ready)
402 2015-10-29T11:29:14 <jtimon> I'm sure I can refactor CodeShark's branch to fit my skeleton without altering functionality (that's what I've been doing in small increments), but if we can agree on a skeleton as a common base, I think that would be very helpful for effective collaboration (and if it's that skeleton I would be already satisfied no matter how much C++ stuff you use in the implementation of AreVersionBitsRecognized(), CalculateState() and specially
403 2015-10-29T11:29:14 <jtimon> VersionBitsIndex)
404 2015-10-29T11:29:32 <jtimon> does that make sense to you guys?
405 2015-10-29T11:31:51 <jtimon> in my libconsensus document with pictures I want to be able to say things like "everything in the consensus dir..." so please don't put VersionBitsIndex (or another statefull class) in the consensus dir
406 2015-10-29T11:33:04 <jtimon> cfields: I'm interested in your opinion on this as well (since you've removed a lot of "statefull" dependencies from consensus code already)
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478 2015-10-29T13:32:58 <jbisch> wumpus: Regarding #6900. Don't know if you saw the initial Debian guest support in gitian-builder. Might be good to look at switching to Debian guests long term. Jessie has newer binutils and is supported until 2020 through Debian LTS initiative.
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484 2015-10-29T13:35:56 <wumpus> jbisch: haven't seen that - if gitian supports debian that might be something to consider
485 2015-10-29T13:36:05 <treehug88> is there a document that explains the architecture of bitcoin core?
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491 2015-10-29T13:38:09 <jbisch> wumpus: It only is KVM atm. And the changes to vmbuilder that allow it to work haven't hit the official Ubuntu package yet. Will be in 16.04 soon. So people would need to install vmbuilder from source to build.
492 2015-10-29T13:39:02 <wumpus> well once 16.04 is out, we can just as well use that
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494 2015-10-29T13:39:26 <wumpus> treehug88: not that I know
495 2015-10-29T13:39:52 <treehug88> that's a shame. Thanks wumpus
496 2015-10-29T13:40:47 <jbisch> wumpus: Yeah, sure. I was also thinking about Debian's reproducible build initiative. Might be good to look at switching anyway at some point, because of that.
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501 2015-10-29T13:42:42 <mcelrath> treehug88: Just start with the wikis: e.g. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_documentation and then https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Category:Technical
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506 2015-10-29T13:45:50 <skyzer> I got bitcoin core strange behaviour again, can't figure out what to do
507 2015-10-29T13:46:33 <skyzer> https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/tx/649de2497dedcd5e655c30c9729b39310f3ac407e1cd156e590b2e94968b4a7b/ that transaction is double-spend, which was seen by my node. But the malleated transaction which got eventually confirmed c811ec was never seen by my node so I never received a walletnotify for that.
508 2015-10-29T13:47:02 <wumpus> you should have received it when it ended up in a block
509 2015-10-29T13:47:11 <skyzer> nope, did not receive
510 2015-10-29T13:47:50 <skyzer> I have discussed similar situation, gmaxwell or luke-jr told that the confirmed malleated transaction was seen first time in block with already 2 confirms, therefore I never received walletnotify on 0 or 1st confirm.
511 2015-10-29T13:48:05 <skyzer> I wonder how this can be sovled, that is popping up every week
512 2015-10-29T13:49:02 <wumpus> that sounds like a reorg - so you don't get notification for transactions that pop up in a reorg? it's possible...
513 2015-10-29T13:49:32 <skyzer> yeah, and people depositing to my web wallet are never being credited because of that
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515 2015-10-29T13:49:43 <skyzer> hurts bitcoin, my website and so on
516 2015-10-29T13:49:45 <dansmith_btc> Running a node with -prune=550 i do with bitcoin-cli getblock 380968 (i checked with getinfo that this is the last downloaded block), the error i get is error: {"code":-5,"message":"Block not found"}. Weren't getblock was supposed to be removed for pruned mode?
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519 2015-10-29T13:51:53 <wumpus> dansmith_btc: getblock works fine with pruning, just not with blocks that are pruned
520 2015-10-29T13:52:27 <wumpus> also getblock takes a hash, not a number, do 'getblockhash' first
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685 2015-10-29T18:25:34 <complexring> i'm trying to build bitcoin-qt from source. but am getting a the following (similar) type errors: "clang: error: unknown argument: '-framework QtNetwork' "
686 2015-10-29T18:26:01 <complexring> using a mac osx, el capitan. installed Qt-5.6.0alpha from source
687 2015-10-29T18:26:44 *** brson has quit IRC
688 2015-10-29T18:26:57 <complexring> Qt frameworks are installed in /usr/local/Qt-5.6.0/lib (default for Qt installed from source if taken from the git repo)
689 2015-10-29T18:27:14 <complexring> surely i am just missing some compiler flag to look for the frameworks in this directory ?
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692 2015-10-29T18:28:37 <complexring> should be around for awhile. let me know if anyone has suggestions.
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706 2015-10-29T18:38:49 <complexring> also, appears to be an issue when calling `OBJCXX qt/bitcoin-qt' (which is sitting inside src).
707 2015-10-29T18:39:09 <complexring> anyway, conference talk time. i'll leave this up if anyone can help
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719 2015-10-29T18:58:55 <dstadulis> meeting happening soon, yes?
720 2015-10-29T18:59:11 <jgarzik> da
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722 2015-10-29T18:59:41 <dstadulis> here's the google doc if there isn't anything else being used (meeting bot etc) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t3kGkAUQ-Yui57P29YhDll5WyJuTiGrUhCW8so-E-iQ/edit?usp=sharing
723 2015-10-29T19:01:00 <sipa> present
724 2015-10-29T19:01:04 *** porquilho has quit IRC
725 2015-10-29T19:01:41 <petertodd> I managed to schedule a call... so I'm here, yet not here :)
726 2015-10-29T19:01:53 <jeremyrubin> I'm here for once, probably won't say anything tho
727 2015-10-29T19:02:06 *** evoskuil has joined #bitcoin-dev
728 2015-10-29T19:02:13 <warren> here
729 2015-10-29T19:02:33 <petertodd> if anyone brings up my RBF patches, I'll look at the issues raised soon as I can, and mostly agree with them (though I want to keep the patch really simple - can be improved later)
730 2015-10-29T19:02:44 <wumpus> #meetingstart
731 2015-10-29T19:02:49 <evoskuil> here
732 2015-10-29T19:02:58 <wumpus> #startmeeting
733 2015-10-29T19:02:58 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 29 19:02:58 2015 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
734 2015-10-29T19:02:58 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
735 2015-10-29T19:03:15 *** sontol has quit IRC
736 2015-10-29T19:03:20 <Luke-Jr> .
737 2015-10-29T19:03:29 <wumpus> anything to discuss?
738 2015-10-29T19:03:37 <gmaxwell> Hm.
739 2015-10-29T19:03:52 *** zooko has joined #bitcoin-dev
740 2015-10-29T19:03:58 <sipa> suggested topic: upcoming softfork?
741 2015-10-29T19:04:10 <wumpus> #topic upcoming softfork
742 2015-10-29T19:04:14 <morcos> suggeted topic: do we have sufficient agreement on new chain limts
743 2015-10-29T19:04:19 <gmaxwell> There were a couple things I wanted to discuss but my mind is blank at the moment.
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747 2015-10-29T19:05:06 <gmaxwell> Are there other things not yet in the old release branches that we think need to be in the point releases for the softfork?
748 2015-10-29T19:05:27 <dstadulis> here's the google doc if desired https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t3kGkAUQ-Yui57P29YhDll5WyJuTiGrUhCW8so-E-iQ/edit?usp=sharing
749 2015-10-29T19:05:30 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I have a PR open with 0.11 backports
750 2015-10-29T19:05:49 <Luke-Jr> but I plan to add more to it until the freeze
751 2015-10-29T19:06:05 <Luke-Jr> (at which point, I'll backport them to 0.10 too as applicable)
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755 2015-10-29T19:07:28 <dcousens> is there any coordination in the softfork in regards to other clients? (btcd, bitcoinj, etc)
756 2015-10-29T19:08:23 <jtimon> here
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758 2015-10-29T19:08:25 <gmaxwell> davec (btcd) had previously acked the schedule we'd proposed and IIRC it's ready for it.
759 2015-10-29T19:08:32 <warren> I could be wrong, but bitcoinj didn't implement all the previous validation rules.
760 2015-10-29T19:08:39 *** sontol has joined #bitcoin-dev
761 2015-10-29T19:08:39 <sipa> bitcoinj doesn
762 2015-10-29T19:08:47 <gmaxwell> dcousens: historically bitcoinj has not implemented any softforks.
763 2015-10-29T19:08:47 <sipa> bitcoinj doesn't implement any validation rules, afaik
764 2015-10-29T19:08:55 <Luke-Jr> I saw a PR for bitcoinj to pay attention to the block versions
765 2015-10-29T19:08:58 <gmaxwell> sipa: well it has the not really maintained validation support.
766 2015-10-29T19:09:16 *** pepesza has joined #bitcoin-dev
767 2015-10-29T19:09:20 <sipa> so what exactly is under consideration: just CLTV?
768 2015-10-29T19:09:59 <morcos> +1 to CLTV alone
769 2015-10-29T19:10:08 <warren> Also for context, what is on the soft fork wish list for the medium term?
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771 2015-10-29T19:10:09 <petertodd> +1
772 2015-10-29T19:10:22 <gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not following your question; as you should be aware we'd planned on doing releases with the CLTV soft fork for the 'end of the month'. No other soft-forks are remotely ready right now.
773 2015-10-29T19:10:27 *** pepesza has joined #bitcoin-dev
774 2015-10-29T19:10:30 <gmaxwell> (we also discussed this last week)
775 2015-10-29T19:10:31 <petertodd> i mean, +1 to CLTV alone
776 2015-10-29T19:10:45 <sipa> gmaxwell: that's indeed my assumption, but i want to make sure that's what we're talking about :)
777 2015-10-29T19:10:58 <gmaxwell> I think the mediantime backports haven't been merged in the backport branches yet.
778 2015-10-29T19:11:12 <dcousens> +1 to CLTV alone, CSV is still just complicated enough it may warrant a more in-depth testing first
779 2015-10-29T19:11:14 <sipa> mediantime needs standardness first, right?
780 2015-10-29T19:11:17 <gmaxwell> And thats something I wanted to see in (as a standardness only rule of course)
781 2015-10-29T19:12:01 <gmaxwell> sipa: all thats implemented (and merged in master) is the standardness.
782 2015-10-29T19:12:19 <sipa> ok, so that needs backports too
783 2015-10-29T19:12:24 <Luke-Jr> are we backporting policy in general, or only future-softfork policies?
784 2015-10-29T19:12:29 <gmaxwell> dcousens: That was already discussed last week.
785 2015-10-29T19:12:44 <dcousens> gmaxwell: ok
786 2015-10-29T19:12:48 <gmaxwell> sipa: it's backported at least to 0.11.1 but not merged.
787 2015-10-29T19:12:56 <sipa> ok
788 2015-10-29T19:13:09 <dcousens> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6884 (for 0.11)
789 2015-10-29T19:14:17 <Luke-Jr> (for reference, I'm collecting bugfixes in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6825 )
790 2015-10-29T19:14:35 <Luke-Jr> does anyone know the answer to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6825#issuecomment-147972253 ?
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794 2015-10-29T19:16:39 <jeremyrubin> that sure looks like a bugfix...
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796 2015-10-29T19:16:51 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: ask petertodd
797 2015-10-29T19:16:56 <gmaxwell> We're straying offtopic severely now.
798 2015-10-29T19:17:36 <Luke-Jr> sorry, thought we were falling short on having topics to discuss
799 2015-10-29T19:17:54 <gmaxwell> Okay so beyond medianpast some effort needs to go in and pull in any straggling bugfixes, then a RC for a 0.11.2 / 0.10.x update?
800 2015-10-29T19:18:02 *** rusty has joined #bitcoin-dev
801 2015-10-29T19:18:23 <sipa> ok
802 2015-10-29T19:18:28 <mcelrath> I'd like to discuss leveldb replacement briefly.
803 2015-10-29T19:19:08 <Luke-Jr> imo better to keep that topic until there's a viable replacement.
804 2015-10-29T19:19:15 <gmaxwell> We can talk about that subject; but I want to be clear. At this time we are not considering replacing leveldb in Bitcoin core.
805 2015-10-29T19:19:33 <mcelrath> I want to ask if anyone else is making a branch for testing with an alternative.
806 2015-10-29T19:19:45 <gmaxwell> (People trying out some other things is great and should always continue.)
807 2015-10-29T19:19:53 <mcelrath> I volunteer to make a LMDB branch. jgarzik already has a sqlite branch. We need to make tests.
808 2015-10-29T19:20:04 <jgarzik> 32-bit is a big issue
809 2015-10-29T19:20:10 <sipa> #topic leveldb replacement
810 2015-10-29T19:20:27 <gmaxwell> Holy crap.
811 2015-10-29T19:20:35 <jgarzik> LMDB simply doesn't work on 32-bit
812 2015-10-29T19:20:35 *** bip65 has joined #bitcoin-dev
813 2015-10-29T19:20:40 <gmaxwell> stop.
814 2015-10-29T19:20:48 * gmaxwell bangs gavel
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816 2015-10-29T19:20:50 <mcelrath> Why is 32-bit such a big deal?
817 2015-10-29T19:21:07 <mcelrath> Want to keep running on raspbery pis?
818 2015-10-29T19:21:30 <gmaxwell> I don't think that I was clear enough. We are _NOT_ replacing leveldb at this time. People should happily test other things, the code is abstracted in a way that specifically facilitates that. Have fun, report results.
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820 2015-10-29T19:21:48 <jgarzik> One of my side projects is a from-scratch COW ordered map dbm https://github.com/jgarzik/pgdb2
821 2015-10-29T19:22:07 <sipa> ok, discussion around exploring that seems to be happening now
822 2015-10-29T19:22:09 <mcelrath> gmaxwell: that is clear, just want to make sure I'm not duplicating someone's effort.
823 2015-10-29T19:22:34 <gmaxwell> The thing that spurred this discussion is a specific bug on windows, which people should stop being shitty developers and fix if they care about and have access to windows. Not run off seeking magic beanstalks.
824 2015-10-29T19:23:01 <mcelrath> Also having db code in the core and having to maintain it is not really a good idea.
825 2015-10-29T19:23:03 <sipa> seems magic beanstalks don't exist at this point, but people are welcome to look for them :)
826 2015-10-29T19:23:06 <Luke-Jr> I suggest we end the meeting early and discuss any alternative db stuff off-meeting. :P
827 2015-10-29T19:23:12 <morcos> chain limits?
828 2015-10-29T19:23:18 <Luke-Jr> mcelrath: 32-bit is the future~ (maybe)
829 2015-10-29T19:23:22 <sipa> #topic chain limits
830 2015-10-29T19:23:26 <Luke-Jr> mcelrath: no matter what we use, we will need to maintain it
831 2015-10-29T19:23:42 <morcos> mostly i want to know what we're looking for to have sufficient consensus to merge them, and maybe i can help try to make that happen, or panic if its not going to
832 2015-10-29T19:23:51 <Luke-Jr> (deferring further discussion on db stuff until post-meeting)
833 2015-10-29T19:23:55 <dcousens> sipa: is there any references to data on average chain length in blocks thus far?
834 2015-10-29T19:24:02 <mcelrath> Luke-Jr: would be nice if it had an upstream maintainer and we weren't the only user. (defferring now to post-meeting)
835 2015-10-29T19:24:03 <morcos> i think some people will be angry, but i dont' see an alternative
836 2015-10-29T19:24:03 <gmaxwell> mcelrath: You misunderstand the purpose of the database in the system. This is not a generic database, but a integral part of the implementation of the consensus algorithim. Some challenge cannot be escaped there.
837 2015-10-29T19:24:05 <sipa> dcousens: good question!
838 2015-10-29T19:24:10 <jgarzik> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LevelDB#Bugs_and_Reliability "LevelDB is widely noted for being unreliable and databases it manages are prone to corruption."
839 2015-10-29T19:24:12 <morcos> dcousens: i posted stats in the pull
840 2015-10-29T19:24:25 <dcousens> morcos: link? (haven't got it open)
841 2015-10-29T19:24:51 <gmaxwell> And if ever something like commited txouts is implemented no off the shelf tool is going to work in any case. So thats just something to get used to there.
842 2015-10-29T19:25:24 <morcos> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011401.html
843 2015-10-29T19:25:36 <morcos> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6771
844 2015-10-29T19:26:06 <morcos> i guess i didn't post all my data, but i have %s of txs that were > than chains of certain lengths for various numbers
845 2015-10-29T19:26:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: Not consistent with our expirence and extensive testing, outside of windows. (I'm familar with the usenix paper, and brought it to our attention when it came out); but among other things our durability requirement is somewhat unusual.
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847 2015-10-29T19:27:06 <gmaxwell> oh I missed the chain limits switch.
848 2015-10-29T19:27:09 <dcousens> morcos: it might be interesting to see the average chain length per block as a graph over time
849 2015-10-29T19:27:34 <dcousens> that will only give us an idea of what was accepted by miners though, and not reflective of the mempool, but, still a good insight?
850 2015-10-29T19:27:37 <sipa> morcos: are these numbers on mempool acceptance, or blocks?
851 2015-10-29T19:27:41 <morcos> dcousens: i'm not sure average is a good measure? there were some very long chains during some of the spam attacks
852 2015-10-29T19:27:54 <sipa> morcos: i would expect that actual blocks don't contain many long chains, even if the mempool usually does
853 2015-10-29T19:28:03 <dcousens> morcos: overlayed with peak maybe?
854 2015-10-29T19:28:10 <morcos> sipa: mempool acceptance (however historically i don't know that anythign got into mempools that didn't end up in blocks, but yes split over multiple blocks maybe)
855 2015-10-29T19:28:40 <morcos> dcousens: oh is that what you were asking about, longest chain in a block, i didn't measure that
856 2015-10-29T19:29:21 <sipa> morcos: assuming retransmits, all that matters is mempool chains that actually get into a single block
857 2015-10-29T19:29:25 <dcousens> morcos: you could also roll the chain window to evaluate over say 3 blocks, assuming the mempool might have been split over that
858 2015-10-29T19:29:36 <dcousens> sipa: true
859 2015-10-29T19:29:54 <gmaxwell> dcousens: that roll check is not very useful, because wallet behavior changes radically at 1 confirm.
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861 2015-10-29T19:30:27 <Luke-Jr> (suggested next topic: block size replacement with cost limits)
862 2015-10-29T19:30:36 <jeremyrubin> btw I'm working on some tools for bitcoin anlaysis on top of spark, I imagine they will help at some point with above analysis. Not cam ready near term, but happy to share what I have if anyone needs that kind of thing sooner.
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864 2015-10-29T19:30:43 <gmaxwell> E.g. bitcoin core tries _very_ hard to avoid ever creating an unconfirmed chain, but does less avoidance of spends at 1 confirm.
865 2015-10-29T19:30:44 <dcousens> gmaxwell: indeed, so maybe just average/peak over blockheights, might be worth seeing for insight on limits?
866 2015-10-29T19:30:52 <dstadulis> dcousens why not a histogram?
867 2015-10-29T19:31:09 *** bip65 has quit IRC
868 2015-10-29T19:31:29 <dcousens> dstadulis: I suppose once we have the data, there are various ways we could visualize it :)
869 2015-10-29T19:31:50 <morcos> ok i can do that i guess. do you think that puts this to bed
870 2015-10-29T19:31:57 <gmaxwell> In any case, 25 is very high. And the recent malleability attacks pretty much would guarentee someone going more than a few deep would be haing a very bad day.
871 2015-10-29T19:32:33 <sipa> my assumption too is that 25 is very high
872 2015-10-29T19:32:45 <jgarzik> +1
873 2015-10-29T19:32:51 <dgenr8> +1 to the more restrictive (but still not very restrictive at all) chain limits
874 2015-10-29T19:32:52 <sipa> but if possible at all, seeing data of how many such chains exist _within a single block_ would be useful
875 2015-10-29T19:33:09 *** Lightsword has joined #bitcoin-dev
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877 2015-10-29T19:33:12 <gmaxwell> From an algorithimic perspective we cannot reasonably support unbounded depth (at least not right now), and depth to the point where it can't even fit in a block undermines our attack prevention assumptions.
878 2015-10-29T19:33:15 <morcos> sipa: ok, will report back on pull, might be a few days though
879 2015-10-29T19:33:31 <dcousens> +1, 25 is too high
880 2015-10-29T19:33:49 *** pepesza has joined #bitcoin-dev
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883 2015-10-29T19:33:59 <morcos> dcousens: i'm happy with lower
884 2015-10-29T19:34:04 <dcousens> morcos: pm if you need any help
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887 2015-10-29T19:34:41 <gmaxwell> there were, unfortunately people complaining even at this patch. In any case, we could always go with a more conservative number now and lower in the future.
888 2015-10-29T19:34:56 <jtimon> do the descendant limits need to be as low as the ascendant limits?
889 2015-10-29T19:35:07 *** sontol has joined #bitcoin-dev
890 2015-10-29T19:35:28 <morcos> jtimon: yeah i wanted 10 for ancestor and 25 for descendant, but seems people are most concerned about the straight line chians
891 2015-10-29T19:35:36 <morcos> and felt 10 was too small
892 2015-10-29T19:35:41 <gmaxwell> I think that if we could make measurements now (e.g. not for the flooding attacks) we'd find lower numbers on account of the malleability attacks.
893 2015-10-29T19:36:16 <morcos> gmaxwell: i can measure over a long time period, but i'll just do the max chain in a block, b/c otherwise it becomes confusing how you count the 10 txs that are all part of a chian of 10
894 2015-10-29T19:36:40 <sipa> morcos: sounds good
895 2015-10-29T19:36:45 <gmaxwell> morcos: okay, though max is a crummy statistic.
896 2015-10-29T19:37:09 *** damethos has quit IRC
897 2015-10-29T19:37:14 <morcos> but if its over a lot of blocks, i think it'll be useful, i seriously doubt most blocks have signficant chians at all
898 2015-10-29T19:37:35 <gmaxwell> e.g. a single 'blockchaing gambling' thing can keep that perpetually inflated, but its probably worth looking at.
899 2015-10-29T19:37:40 *** asyn has joined #bitcoin-dev
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901 2015-10-29T19:37:44 <dcousens> gmaxwell: what else can we use? in the end it is max we are limiting?
902 2015-10-29T19:37:56 <gmaxwell> dumping a txid for the longest chain would be nice, so we could go see what it appears to be.
903 2015-10-29T19:38:08 <gmaxwell> dcousens: we are not limiting the max of a _block_
904 2015-10-29T19:38:12 *** damethos has joined #bitcoin-dev
905 2015-10-29T19:38:27 <dcousens> true, but, its likely it will have that effect
906 2015-10-29T19:38:28 *** DatBeeDoe has joined #bitcoin-dev
907 2015-10-29T19:38:29 *** pepesza has joined #bitcoin-dev
908 2015-10-29T19:38:36 <asyn> hi everyone. I was thinking about OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY. Will it be possible to send a transaction that freezes funds until a certain block height to any address? Wouldn't that be a problem for exchanges, when they receive funds, credit them but won't be able to spend the funds until a certain block height is reached?
909 2015-10-29T19:38:36 <asyn> Or would using CLTV change the resulting output in a way that it won't result in the deposit address the exchange presented?
910 2015-10-29T19:38:53 <jgarzik> asyn, off topic for meeting
911 2015-10-29T19:38:55 <gmaxwell> asyn: #bitcoin I'll answer you there.
912 2015-10-29T19:39:06 <asyn> sorry
913 2015-10-29T19:39:17 <gmaxwell> dcousens: what I think would be more interesting is how many 'chains' in a block fail the test as a function of the limit. But I don't want to waste morcos' time with a bunch of measurement.
914 2015-10-29T19:39:50 <morcos> gmaxwell: i'll be wasting my time figuring out how to even calculate any of this. :) i'll report all the stats i can reasonably gather
915 2015-10-29T19:41:55 <dcousens> suggested topic, clang format testing, [strictly] enforce style unit testing or not AND jgarzik's suggestion RE a window for those changes to occur initially
916 2015-10-29T19:41:55 <gmaxwell> morcos: sounds good. Sorry, for my care I'm fine with what you have so far, but process wise, we can avoid some controversy by doing a little more homework I think.
917 2015-10-29T19:42:29 <morcos> gmaxwell: yep, i asked for it. :)
918 2015-10-29T19:42:37 *** lnostdal has quit IRC
919 2015-10-29T19:43:18 <gmaxwell> #topic clang format
920 2015-10-29T19:43:29 <gmaxwell> dcousens: what is the proposal here?
921 2015-10-29T19:43:51 <dcousens> gmaxwell: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6839#issuecomment-151663851
922 2015-10-29T19:44:10 <gmaxwell> Clang format behavior changes "randomly" from version to version.
923 2015-10-29T19:44:15 <jgarzik> History review: Proposal a while ago was to clang-format file set <a b c ...> Once done, maintain those files' formatting with automation (git hook checks or whatnot)
924 2015-10-29T19:44:28 *** benrcole has quit IRC
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926 2015-10-29T19:44:37 <dcousens> gmaxwell: worth locking down a version then?
927 2015-10-29T19:44:40 <jgarzik> +ends coding style complaints -causes increase in cosmetic traffic
928 2015-10-29T19:44:41 *** d_t has quit IRC
929 2015-10-29T19:44:52 <gmaxwell> This would mean that every contributor ould need the same copy of some selected version of clang format, which seems pretty burdensome to me.
930 2015-10-29T19:44:55 <jgarzik> ends lots of bike shedding and Diapolo (I love you) patches
931 2015-10-29T19:45:06 <jtimon> maybe we need to lock in a version for consistent automation, yes
932 2015-10-29T19:45:09 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: will not end coding style complaints, but might help some of the most uninteresting ones.
933 2015-10-29T19:45:10 <btcdrak> omg I am late
934 2015-10-29T19:45:19 *** DatBeeDoe has quit IRC
935 2015-10-29T19:45:23 * jonasschnelli has mixed up sommer / winter time..
936 2015-10-29T19:45:26 <btcdrak> the clocks went back.
937 2015-10-29T19:45:33 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, it won't end them but we can ignore with greater alacrity ;p
938 2015-10-29T19:45:37 <gmaxwell> it's USes turn nxt week.
939 2015-10-29T19:45:59 <sipa> i really like the idea of a consistent style
940 2015-10-29T19:46:19 <gmaxwell> So-- before we do that we need to have some discussion about style which shouldn't be in this meeting. We use several coding styles which are knon to increase defect rate (e.g. unbraced statements).
941 2015-10-29T19:46:35 <mcelrath> One should then start by clang-formatting the entire repo.
942 2015-10-29T19:46:40 <dcousens> gmaxwell: indeed, this was merely a suggestion to see if its worth getting the ball rolling on that
943 2015-10-29T19:46:45 <wumpus> I really don't like clang-formatting the entire repo
944 2015-10-29T19:46:49 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: contributors only need clang-format if we don't write the code in the proper format initially
945 2015-10-29T19:46:49 <jtimon> but it would be nice if some automation was shared in the repo (with or without fixed version)
946 2015-10-29T19:46:58 <jgarzik> A related and relevant piece of this discussion (as noted in PR): Picking a time window for coding style changes
947 2015-10-29T19:46:58 <jgarzik> wumpus, not at once, certainly
948 2015-10-29T19:47:18 <wumpus> I like code changes to, make actual changes to code, diff noise makes maintenance really annoying
949 2015-10-29T19:47:19 <jgarzik> We can do libconsensus, reformat, other changes inside this time window as discussed previously.
950 2015-10-29T19:47:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: time window suggests at once!
951 2015-10-29T19:47:35 <jgarzik> wumpus, they are separate pull obviously
952 2015-10-29T19:47:38 <wumpus> so I'd prefer to not do clang formatting to existing files
953 2015-10-29T19:47:51 <jgarzik> -1 that doesn't solve problems
954 2015-10-29T19:47:52 <Luke-Jr> is there *anything* that supports only looking at changes for style?
955 2015-10-29T19:48:02 <wumpus> or at all really
956 2015-10-29T19:48:05 <jtimon> ideally coding style would be respected with each PR and "code style fixes" would never be necessary (or at least would stop being necessary at some point)
957 2015-10-29T19:48:07 <mcelrath> -1 bikeshedding
958 2015-10-29T19:48:16 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, ?
959 2015-10-29T19:48:21 <gmaxwell> wumpus: a prudent path might be to spec out something for new files, which would also be acceptable on all. And consider a mass reformat for later if we're happy with the result.
960 2015-10-29T19:48:28 <dcousens> mcelrath: the idea is that will end the constant bikeshedding/nits on PRs
961 2015-10-29T19:48:36 <wumpus> I'd really like to not have a mass reformat
962 2015-10-29T19:48:38 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, if you mean all cosmetics are submitted within same time window - yes that is the point
963 2015-10-29T19:48:41 <rusty> As a newcomer, an existing well-defined style would be good.
964 2015-10-29T19:48:42 <wumpus> but supposedly I'm alone in that
965 2015-10-29T19:48:48 <jonasschnelli> wumpus : +1
966 2015-10-29T19:48:55 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, avoiding current situation of constant-rebase-hell was already discussed
967 2015-10-29T19:49:00 <jonasschnelli> what if we enforce clang format code style for new code?
968 2015-10-29T19:49:04 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I certantly don't want to multiple times.
969 2015-10-29T19:49:09 <jtimon> yep, just respect the style on the lines you are touching anyway and little by little the style will be more respected overall
970 2015-10-29T19:49:13 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: does it support that?
971 2015-10-29T19:49:15 <wumpus> I think it's overkill for what amounts to just cosmetic details
972 2015-10-29T19:49:25 <dgenr8> wumpus: +1. but if you want to make it harder to cherrypick stuff to XT, keep it up with that refactors
973 2015-10-29T19:49:30 <jonasschnelli> let's travis do a diff and check the clang format style of the diff?
974 2015-10-29T19:49:31 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, by extension cosmetics and code movement are rejected outside time window, leaving time for real development with less pain over time
975 2015-10-29T19:49:40 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: please.
976 2015-10-29T19:49:43 <jgarzik> (general rule - there are always exceptions)
977 2015-10-29T19:49:48 <wumpus> dgenr8: I'm ok with *sensible* refactors that move around code to make it easier to maintain, but this code style stuff annoys me
978 2015-10-29T19:49:48 <gmaxwell> Has anyone done the work to see if we can get identical objectfile verification after a clang format?
979 2015-10-29T19:49:59 <jtimon> someone automating that (apply style only on the lines I've touched for this commit) could share the script
980 2015-10-29T19:50:07 <dcousens> gmaxwell: good question
981 2015-10-29T19:50:08 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: i think its possible to get the same output.
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983 2015-10-29T19:50:25 <mcelrath> jtimon: that's probably impossible since context from lines outside the lines you touch decide the amount of whitespace.
984 2015-10-29T19:50:29 <jgarzik> IMO objectfile differences indicate clang-format bug...
985 2015-10-29T19:50:45 <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: if anything, we should be making forks *easier*, not harder. just because one fork is misbehaving is not a reason to discourage forks.
986 2015-10-29T19:50:58 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: not so, assertion macros pepper the code with line numbers. special measures must be taken to avoid the object file changing.
987 2015-10-29T19:51:08 <dcousens> wumpus: if your main concern is git blame history being lost, I'm sure we could squash all code changes such that it is only 1 commit deep
988 2015-10-29T19:51:17 *** Grouver has joined #bitcoin-dev
989 2015-10-29T19:51:21 <gmaxwell> git blame history is already mostly useless in bitcoin core.
990 2015-10-29T19:51:32 *** Grouver has quit IRC
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992 2015-10-29T19:51:38 <wumpus> dcousens: that's not my only concern - I just hate all-over-the-place changes, and the more if they don't really achieve anything
993 2015-10-29T19:51:47 <jtimon> mcelrath you can 1) write down the lines you are changing 2) apply clang on the whole file 3) discard any change in the lines you weren't previously changing
994 2015-10-29T19:51:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: so let's not make it any more useless.
995 2015-10-29T19:52:00 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, good point
996 2015-10-29T19:52:09 <wumpus> 'some windows are broken, let's break them all...'
997 2015-10-29T19:52:13 <jonasschnelli> format everything could ruing the history and make branches/PRs harder to diff. What are the benefits of a clang-format style of every piece of code we have?
998 2015-10-29T19:52:13 <jgarzik> 8 minutes left
999 2015-10-29T19:52:15 <jgarzik> other topics?
1000 2015-10-29T19:52:24 <wumpus> agree jonasschnelli
1001 2015-10-29T19:52:38 <btcdrak> jgarzik: I need to talk about #6312 and #6564 again
1002 2015-10-29T19:52:40 <jtimon> my preference would be to apply purely cosmetic changes ONLY in that way (no time window required)
1003 2015-10-29T19:53:12 <wumpus> people will still find purely cosmetic changes to do after clang-format, there's always something it doesn't do, or not yet
1004 2015-10-29T19:53:15 <jonasschnelli> cosmetic changes might be applied when touching the code because of a refactoring / change.
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1006 2015-10-29T19:53:30 <mcelrath> jtimon: your algorithm discounts the possibility that the line numbers change. e.g. if(foo) { bar; } becoming multiple lines. it's not so obvious.
1007 2015-10-29T19:53:49 <jonasschnelli> and we have already a clang-format checker: Diapolo. :-)
1008 2015-10-29T19:53:58 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
1009 2015-10-29T19:54:08 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: lol
1010 2015-10-29T19:54:13 <dcousens> jonasschnelli: I think if this is to go forward, careful attention will need to be made as to the timing. This wasn't an easy question for sure
1011 2015-10-29T19:54:48 <jonasschnelli> agree
1012 2015-10-29T19:54:57 <wumpus> if the goal is to stop nitpicking about those, then discourage that, not mangle the entire source code to give a few people too franctic about spaces their way
1013 2015-10-29T19:55:02 <sipa> my observation: too little consensus about enforcing a consistent style
1014 2015-10-29T19:55:13 <jtimon> mcelrath: true, not that simple, but it shouldn't be impossible with some weird git magic
1015 2015-10-29T19:55:26 * mcelrath awaits said magic...
1016 2015-10-29T19:55:35 <jgarzik> let's move on to next topic
1017 2015-10-29T19:55:39 <dcousens> sipa: the consensus is lacking over the how to initially enforce it
1018 2015-10-29T19:55:45 <wumpus> any other topics?
1019 2015-10-29T19:55:46 <dcousens> not over enforcement in general, AFAIK
1020 2015-10-29T19:55:47 <jgarzik> ### 5 min
1021 2015-10-29T19:55:54 <gmaxwell> Yes, I'd be fine with doing something in new files, though I don't know what style we'd use. Going further requires research that no one has done, like getting a determinstic object (which I know for a fact will not just work).
1022 2015-10-29T19:55:59 <btcdrak> jgarzik: yes BIP68 and BIP112 implementations
1023 2015-10-29T19:56:08 <sipa> dcousens: seems that gmaxwell for example is opposed to requiring a specific clang-format version; without that, there is no way to do it at all
1024 2015-10-29T19:56:09 <btcdrak> wumpus:
1025 2015-10-29T19:56:10 <dcousens> btcdrak: whats the topic specifically?
1026 2015-10-29T19:56:19 <gmaxwell> dcousens: no, there is a lot more under determined.
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1028 2015-10-29T19:56:50 <gmaxwell> my concern about specific versions would be reduced if someone cooked up a way to make setting up an alien clang format (e.g. cfields dep builder work).
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1031 2015-10-29T19:57:10 <sipa> BIP68: i still dislike the fact that the checklocktime function has a clause for skipping missing inputs, under the assumption that those only happen in the wallet
1032 2015-10-29T19:57:13 <dcousens> gmaxwell: ok, well, maybe something for another time then, I'd like to grab a hard-copy of your concerns if possible though
1033 2015-10-29T19:57:41 <btcdrak> #topic: BIP68 and BIP112 implementations
1034 2015-10-29T19:57:49 <sipa> those behaviours should be separated; i think the function should be pure logic (which takes a list of heights/times, and the different call sites can provide that based on wallet, mempool or chainstate)
1035 2015-10-29T19:58:21 <btcdrak> sipa: have you reviewed the latest PRs for #6312?
1036 2015-10-29T19:58:35 <morcos> sipa: i haven't dived into it yet, but i agree
1037 2015-10-29T19:58:47 <petertodd> sipa: ACK, the skipping missing inputs worries me a lot
1038 2015-10-29T19:58:48 <sdaftuar> i dived into before and i also agree with sipa
1039 2015-10-29T19:59:16 <sipa> btcdrak: it still does that
1040 2015-10-29T19:59:37 <btcdrak> It would be helpful to comment on the PR
1041 2015-10-29T19:59:45 <sipa> btcdrak: i've commented multiple times about it
1042 2015-10-29T20:00:22 <sipa> mark changed the behaviour to making missing inputs cause failure; i commented that that broke the wallet, and then it was reverted to the preexisting skip behaviour
1043 2015-10-29T20:00:57 <morcos> i'd love to get BIP68 and BIP112 merged, but without maaku championing it and being responsible for the code, i think we need to be even more cautious
1044 2015-10-29T20:01:16 <morcos> btcdrak: i'm not sure how much responsbility you are taking for it?
1045 2015-10-29T20:01:17 <btcdrak> well it's important to establish what is really needed to get these merged
1046 2015-10-29T20:01:39 *** MarcoFalke has joined #bitcoin-dev
1047 2015-10-29T20:01:41 <morcos> but i think its important that someone takes up the mantle
1048 2015-10-29T20:01:43 <dstadulis> FYI we're at the one hour mark (keep it going for those who can stick around. if people could take a quick read through of the draft of the meeting notes and tweak and add content where they see fit that would help improve coverage and productivity of the meeting: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1t3kGkAUQ-Yui57P29YhDll5WyJuTiGrUhCW8so-E-iQ/edit
1049 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1050 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 29 20:01:46 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1051 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-29-19.02.html
1052 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-29-19.02.txt
1053 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-10-29-19.02.log.html
1054 2015-10-29T20:01:46 <jgarzik> morcos, I think btcdrak is the sole maintainer/mantle now
1055 2015-10-29T20:01:51 <jgarzik> since maaku is out
1056 2015-10-29T20:01:51 <btcdrak> I also saw some complaints that it's hard to review both #6312 and #6564 separately, so I created a combined branch
1057 2015-10-29T20:02:14 <btcdrak> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/master...btcdrak:sequenceandcsv
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1060 2015-10-29T20:02:56 <btcdrak> morcos: I'm doing my best to get it polished. I was under the impression that the nits for 6312 were addressed
1061 2015-10-29T20:03:23 <rusty> sipa: I like the concept of the patch, but I'll have to review and see what a separation looks like.
1062 2015-10-29T20:03:40 *** noobfikt has joined #bitcoin-dev
1063 2015-10-29T20:03:48 <btcdrak> so the question is if there should be one combined PR with both 6312 and 6564 as one, or to keep the PRs separated
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1065 2015-10-29T20:05:24 <jtimon> I think bip68 goes first and then bip112 or both together, but I don't think bip112 makes much sense without bip68
1066 2015-10-29T20:05:44 <sipa> bip112 is certainly useless without 68
1067 2015-10-29T20:05:49 <rusty> btcdrak: separate is good. They're conceptually related, but it's nice that they split into two parts so cleanly. Certainly reduces review burden. Agreed with jtimon.
1068 2015-10-29T20:05:52 <btcdrak> sipa: how is 6564 in your eyes? It certain seems more straightforward, but it also doesnt make sense without 6312
1069 2015-10-29T20:05:59 <jgarzik> separate-but-dependent
1070 2015-10-29T20:06:09 <sipa> btcdrak: i haven't looked at it; we need 6312 first
1071 2015-10-29T20:06:16 <jtimon> btcdrak: anyway, that's a question of review and you already created the branch with both to help review, right?
1072 2015-10-29T20:06:16 *** pfallenop has joined #bitcoin-dev
1073 2015-10-29T20:06:48 <btcdrak> I created a branch linked above yes, so people who want to review it as one can do so easily
1074 2015-10-29T20:07:02 <btcdrak> I'll keep that rebased if we make any changes to 6312
1075 2015-10-29T20:08:11 <btcdrak> My hope is that once we get those nits fixed, we can get them merged and it can sit in master like CLTV did (renamed to OP_HODL by the way), pending a later softfork.
1076 2015-10-29T20:08:33 *** xpredator has joined #bitcoin-dev
1077 2015-10-29T20:08:56 <sipa> why HODL?
1078 2015-10-29T20:09:20 <jgarzik> because it's internet-cute like kittens
1079 2015-10-29T20:09:31 <jgarzik> (seriously: it's a dumb rename)
1080 2015-10-29T20:09:32 <jtimon> btcdrak: thank you, to me it's helpful
1081 2015-10-29T20:09:38 <btcdrak> sipa: it's a reddit joke reference. Someone asked how to lock their coins
1082 2015-10-29T20:10:03 <btcdrak> sipa: then someone replied saying there is a new feature, but he forgot it's real name, then referred to a joke I'd made calling it OP_HODL.
1083 2015-10-29T20:10:11 <sipa> eh ok
1084 2015-10-29T20:10:25 <btcdrak> sipa: HODL reference: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0
1085 2015-10-29T20:10:36 <btcdrak> but anyway :)
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1090 2015-10-29T20:12:43 <davec> dcousens: I wasn't around, but gmaxwell is correct. In regards to the CLTV softfork, btcd already has the code in master for it
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1094 2015-10-29T20:14:43 <jtimon> versionbits?
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1096 2015-10-29T20:16:07 <jtimon> CodeShark and rusty are probably not around, but if anyone wants to nit the skeleton in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bitcoin:master...jtimon:softforks please do so
1097 2015-10-29T20:16:24 <rusty> jtimon: am here...
1098 2015-10-29T20:16:36 <jtimon> oh, great
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1101 2015-10-29T20:17:30 <rusty> jtimon: I found CodeShark's approach difficult to follow. I have an alternate approach, and I'd like him to consider it. I'm cleaning the commits now for pushing.
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1105 2015-10-29T20:18:54 <jtimon> ok, I want to review that too, but please have a look at that branch and tell me if it makes sense to you
1106 2015-10-29T20:19:14 <jtimon> (when you can)
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1112 2015-10-29T20:21:29 <rusty> jtimon: my approach is completely different. You get a global 'struct BIP', eg. BIP3000. You ask BIP3000.IsActive(Chain *).
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1114 2015-10-29T20:22:18 <rusty> jtimon: struct VersionBitsBIP inherits from struct BIP (we can do similar in C)
1115 2015-10-29T20:22:34 <rusty> jtimon: I think that makes much, much more sense.
1116 2015-10-29T20:23:33 <jtimon> why? you need an array with all the per-chain configurable stuff in Consensus::Params, which should be always available as a const ref in the relevant code
1117 2015-10-29T20:23:46 <jtimon> and then another array for the states, done
1118 2015-10-29T20:24:37 <jtimon> then you may want an index of those state arrays for given blockindexes for reorgs and stuff
1119 2015-10-29T20:25:13 <jtimon> std::map<const CBlockIndex*, Consensus::VersionBits::State> ruleStateMap;
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1121 2015-10-29T20:25:36 <rusty> jtimon: a BIP can tell internally if it never applies to a chain.
1122 2015-10-29T20:26:11 <sipa> BIPs are text, I think the structures should be called rules or forks :)
1123 2015-10-29T20:26:14 <jtimon> "internally" it's just semantics, there's no need to encapsulate the attributes here
1124 2015-10-29T20:26:22 <rusty> sipa: yeah, but BIP is *short*
1125 2015-10-29T20:26:22 <jtimon> a function can do just the same
1126 2015-10-29T20:26:31 <sipa> rusty: agree there :)
1127 2015-10-29T20:26:45 <jtimon> CodeShark was using Softfork, which I maintain
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1129 2015-10-29T20:26:59 <rusty> jtimon: asking a bip if it is active at some point is the obvious and clear way to do it.
1130 2015-10-29T20:27:21 <jtimon> but that doesn't contain the state (since Consensus::Params will get to you as const)
1131 2015-10-29T20:27:21 <rusty> jtimon: exposing tables is a terrible ABI.
1132 2015-10-29T20:27:22 <sipa> rusty: i'm not sure i like that overloading in consensus logic
1133 2015-10-29T20:27:26 <Luke-Jr> rusty: but BIPs are not necessarily softforks.
1134 2015-10-29T20:27:44 <sipa> rusty: though your approach seems pretty clean in general (and short!)
1135 2015-10-29T20:28:08 <rusty> sipa: well, in C code it becomes a function pointer rather than a method. But still trivial.
1136 2015-10-29T20:28:25 <sipa> rusty: it would need to be BIP.IsActive(Chainparams&, CBlocKindex*), right?
1137 2015-10-29T20:28:27 <sipa> rusty: same thing
1138 2015-10-29T20:28:34 <sipa> rusty: it hides what is actually being done
1139 2015-10-29T20:28:49 <jtimon> rusty you mean myClass.UseRule() is more obvious and clear than UseRule(myStruct) ?
1140 2015-10-29T20:28:53 <rusty> sipa: well, we could make chainparams explicit; I'm using the Params() at the moment.
1141 2015-10-29T20:29:05 <sipa> rusty: yeah you need to make chainparams explicit
1142 2015-10-29T20:29:11 <rusty> sipa: why?
1143 2015-10-29T20:29:15 <sipa> rusty: a library form won't have a global params you can ask
1144 2015-10-29T20:29:27 <rusty> sipa: why not?
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1146 2015-10-29T20:29:35 <rusty> sipa: do you hate your users?
1147 2015-10-29T20:29:36 <jtimon> rusty: because we're getting rid of the use of Params() (which is just hiding a global)
1148 2015-10-29T20:29:40 <sipa> rusty: please
1149 2015-10-29T20:29:49 <jtimon> see #5970
1150 2015-10-29T20:29:51 <rusty> sipa: seriously, that's a horrible, horrible API.
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1153 2015-10-29T20:31:12 <rusty> sipa: avoiding a global does allow you to use the library simulatenously on multple different chains in a threaded program without a lock.
1154 2015-10-29T20:31:42 <sipa> rusty: allow you to use multiple different chains simulataneously at all
1155 2015-10-29T20:31:56 <jtimon> that's why we want to avoid Params() which is the global, const CChainParams& chainparams as a parameter on the other hand is not
1156 2015-10-29T20:31:57 <rusty> sipa: no, you can trivially write a wrapper to override.
1157 2015-10-29T20:32:09 <sipa> rusty: not in a threaded program
1158 2015-10-29T20:32:16 <rusty> sipa: hence my comment above, yes.
1159 2015-10-29T20:32:34 <rusty> sipa: pain for the tiny percentage of users who want to do that, but simplicity for everyone els.e
1160 2015-10-29T20:32:58 <sipa> rusty: there is a bigger problem
1161 2015-10-29T20:33:04 <rusty> sips/jtimon: is the consensus library going to need other state?
1162 2015-10-29T20:33:17 <jtimon> apart from what?
1163 2015-10-29T20:33:34 <rusty> jtimon: chainparams? If so, you probably want a context arg instead.
1164 2015-10-29T20:33:55 <sipa> rusty: that is that if the versionbits logic needs access to a Params() (regardless of how it is implemented), it depends on all of the chainparam's dependencies
1165 2015-10-29T20:34:00 <jtimon> libconsensus only needs Consensus::Params, not CChainParams
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1167 2015-10-29T20:34:22 <sipa> rusty: if you want clean modularization, you can create a VersionBitsParams which is passed to the versiobits module
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1169 2015-10-29T20:34:47 <sipa> and the caller can extract that from the full structure chainparams, which contains versionbitsparams
1170 2015-10-29T20:34:56 <jtimon> when you call libconsensus you provide a Consensus::Params
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1172 2015-10-29T20:35:49 <rusty> sipa: there's one value, so that seems overkill?
1173 2015-10-29T20:35:50 <jtimon> yes, that would work as well, you can just put a VersionBitsParams in Consensus::Params as well
1174 2015-10-29T20:36:19 <sipa> rusty: ok, so it can take that value as a parameter instead
1175 2015-10-29T20:36:27 <sipa> rusty: without depending on all of chainparams
1176 2015-10-29T20:36:28 <jtimon> rusty please read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bitcoin:master...jtimon:softforks#diff-bc9415451d733499187a3fe59e0fd7e6R77 it's not one value
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1178 2015-10-29T20:37:21 <jtimon> and if by "one value" you mean the current state for a given blockindex, the state shouldn't be in consensus/params
1179 2015-10-29T20:37:40 <rusty> jtimon: https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin/commit/393c87b58838be62000c34dd1bb6a392cecde828
1180 2015-10-29T20:37:42 <jtimon> you need your own struct (array) for the current states for each bip
1181 2015-10-29T20:38:30 <jtimon> that's one, what about SoftFork vDeployments[MAX_VERSION_BITS_DEPLOYMENTS]; ?
1182 2015-10-29T20:39:15 <jtimon> and struct SoftFork {int32_t nBit;uint32_t nDeployTime;uint32_t nExpireTime; };
1183 2015-10-29T20:39:29 <rusty> jtimon: you're looking at CodeShark's code. Don't do that...
1184 2015-10-29T20:39:55 <rusty> Child waking, got to go. Code is done and tested, will push for review once I've squished commits.
1185 2015-10-29T20:39:57 <jtimon> which is basically your BIP struct without the current state (which you don't need to duplicate)
1186 2015-10-29T20:39:58 <jtimon> ???
1187 2015-10-29T20:40:20 <jtimon> please look at my code
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1205 2015-10-29T21:09:27 <paulo_> hodl or sell?
1206 2015-10-29T21:10:26 <btcdrak> paulo_: wrong channel #bitcoin-pricetalk
1207 2015-10-29T21:10:49 <paulo_> oops thought this was price talk
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1220 2015-10-29T21:29:13 <complexring> hello all. trying to compile bitcoin-qt on el capitan. have a compiled qt-5.6.0 from source a la git (standard default install location), but am receiving the following error: "fatal error: 'QLabel' file not found" -- i have passed the QTDIR environment variable and some includes to configure. seems like i am missing something simple. using clang.
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1223 2015-10-29T21:32:06 <jonasschnelli> complexring: did you try install Qt5.5 over homebrew?
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1228 2015-10-29T21:38:40 <complexring> jonasschnelli: i did use brew at some point, and it worked. but then some other projects failed with the homebrew install, so i went with the option of getting the latest qt from their git repo to make qt work with them. also, installing from the downloaded .dmg from qt's site worked as well. in the git install, i can in fact pass the include directory that does contain QLabel, but then run into some clang errors saying : " clang:
1229 2015-10-29T21:38:40 <complexring> error: unknown argument: '-framework QtNetwork' " -- ditto for -framework QtNetwork, QtWidgets, QtGui, QtCore, QtDBus -- and i do pass the -F$QTLOCFRAMEWORKLOCATION flag as well. this part fails on : " OBJCXXLD qt/bitcoin-qt " , so clang doesn't like -framework flag being passed for objective c++ ?
1230 2015-10-29T21:39:41 <jonasschnelli> complexring : ah right.. i also saw this problem on my system... had to go back to qt5.4
1231 2015-10-29T21:39:42 <complexring> so, seems like might be an issue with installing qt from source on mac. but all the files, etc. are installed somewhere (default location), and i would think i just am missing some flag to pass to the compiler.
1232 2015-10-29T21:39:47 <jonasschnelli> cfields pointed me to https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/commit/fdbb338f2274e093b96209e7ca3ff9bf5460714e
1233 2015-10-29T21:39:53 <complexring> o0
1234 2015-10-29T21:40:03 <jonasschnelli> but didn't went down that path..
1235 2015-10-29T21:40:20 <complexring> let me check that out.
1236 2015-10-29T21:40:27 <cfields> yes, it's just a quoting problem
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1238 2015-10-29T21:40:42 <jonasschnelli> complexring: check this: https://gist.githubusercontent.com/UniqMartin/a54542d666be1983dc83/raw/f235dfb418c3d0d086c3baae520d538bae0b1c70/qtbug-47162.patch
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1240 2015-10-29T21:41:41 <complexring> so that patch should handle the broken pkg-config install?
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1242 2015-10-29T21:43:41 <complexring> this doesn't seem to fix the issue if i have qt-5.6.0alpha or does it?
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1292 2015-10-29T22:35:23 <warren> Other than #5610 and #5865, are people aware of prominent issues, forum or reddit posts where any substantive information about possible causes of the reported Windows db corruption is written?
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1294 2015-10-29T22:37:20 <warren> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=337294.0;all I'm considering repeating something similar to this November 2013 bug bounty for the MacOS X leveldb corruption.
1295 2015-10-29T22:37:54 <warren> I need to know if 1) the issue is real (it seems so) and 2) what information already exists about it before deciding if this is a good idea.
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1300 2015-10-29T22:46:20 <PRab> warren: I'm not sure how useful this is, but I have seen #5610 happen on 2 of 2 Windows machines that I have access to. I posted my log in that issue once, but have seen it occur more times.
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1302 2015-10-29T22:47:40 <warren> PRab: can you document how to reproduce it consistently?
1303 2015-10-29T22:47:46 <warren> PRab: what version of windows?
1304 2015-10-29T22:48:04 <PRab> Windows 7 on one machine and Windows 8 on the other.
1305 2015-10-29T22:48:26 <PRab> Not 100% consistently, but most of the time a hard power down does it.
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1307 2015-10-29T22:48:48 <PRab> Usually I'm gone for a weekend, notice that the power went out, and then it needs to do a rebuild.
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1311 2015-10-29T22:49:30 <warren> PRab: do you have write caching enabled on the drive?
1312 2015-10-29T22:50:02 <PRab> Whatever windows defaults to. Checking now.
1313 2015-10-29T22:50:32 <warren> a Windows 8.1 machine here defaulted to write caching enabled, which surprised me
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1315 2015-10-29T22:51:42 <PRab> Write caching is enabled on my machine (Windows 7)
1316 2015-10-29T22:52:40 <sipa> why would you not enable write caching on any OS?
1317 2015-10-29T22:53:02 <sipa> even DOS 6 did...
1318 2015-10-29T22:53:55 <warren> I guess it depends on the type of write caching if it's safe to do so or not.
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1323 2015-10-29T22:58:57 <btcdrak> is there an historical data of bitcoin full node counts?
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1328 2015-10-29T23:09:31 <dstadulis> btcdrak define historical data
1329 2015-10-29T23:09:59 <dstadulis> btcdrak just a count plot over time?
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1331 2015-10-29T23:10:20 <btcdrak> plot count over time
1332 2015-10-29T23:10:28 <btcdrak> ping CodeShark
1333 2015-10-29T23:11:21 <CodeShark> hello :)
1334 2015-10-29T23:11:38 <CodeShark> yes, what btcdrak said :)
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1359 2015-10-29T23:47:36 <warren> Has it been proposed to have a bitcoin.conf option that causes bitciond to refuse to run until the user edits the config and removes it? I'm thinking about safe packaging standards for Fedora's bitcoin package and I am wondering if that would be a way to force people to configure the system service and not just blindly use it.
1360 2015-10-29T23:48:14 <sipa> warren: you can run without bitcoin.conf now, safely
1361 2015-10-29T23:48:17 *** kadoban has joined #bitcoin-dev
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1363 2015-10-29T23:48:51 <phantomcircuit> warren, why not just an annoying set of defaults? (server=0 for example)
1364 2015-10-29T23:49:14 <sipa> bitcoind ignores server
1365 2015-10-29T23:49:26 <warren> sipa: as a system service shipped in a distro, people want us to ship a systemd .service file. I'm personally against doing so but I may be forced into it.
1366 2015-10-29T23:49:44 <warren> Thus I may want to force them to look at and configure things.
1367 2015-10-29T23:49:57 <phantomcircuit> sipa, server=0 doesn't disable rpc?
1368 2015-10-29T23:50:44 <sipa> phantomcircuit: you can't disabled rpc in bitcoind; -server is a bitcoin-qt option
1369 2015-10-29T23:51:04 <phantomcircuit> ah
1370 2015-10-29T23:51:05 <CodeShark> just automatically create a very long random password for the RPC
1371 2015-10-29T23:51:10 <CodeShark> and stick it in the conf file
1372 2015-10-29T23:51:11 <Belxjander> warren: assign it a non-created user so it always fails at boot until the user is created and the configuration is then to be generated
1373 2015-10-29T23:51:27 <warren> crap, with sys V initscripts it was simple to auto-generate rpcuser and rpcpassword, I'm not sure how to do it with systemd
1374 2015-10-29T23:51:36 <Belxjander> warren: systemd won't launch services without a "home" directory to run them from and fails the launch
1375 2015-10-29T23:51:38 <sipa> warren: you don't need rpcuser and rpcpassword anymore
1376 2015-10-29T23:51:54 <sipa> warren: bitcoind will create a cookie with a token that bitcoin-cli can read
1377 2015-10-29T23:52:07 <warren> oh in datadir?
1378 2015-10-29T23:52:11 <Belxjander> warren: I suggest looking at the znc.service file as one example of running a service within a specific user
1379 2015-10-29T23:52:11 <sipa> yes
1380 2015-10-29T23:52:29 <Belxjander> warren: that also fails until configured
1381 2015-10-29T23:52:49 <gmaxwell> warren: we have autotokens now. actually, I wonder if the presence of autotokens shouldn't cause us to rename the rpcuser/rpcpassword configuration in 0.12.
1382 2015-10-29T23:53:17 <warren> ok this is good
1383 2015-10-29T23:53:30 <Belxjander> gmaxwell: separating to a new option name and marking those deprecated for later removal ?
1384 2015-10-29T23:54:06 <gmaxwell> Belxjander: yes, since now most users should no longer be setting them.
1385 2015-10-29T23:54:19 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: why shouldn't they?
1386 2015-10-29T23:54:38 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you should only be setting them if you want remote access.
1387 2015-10-29T23:54:39 <Luke-Jr> actually, is it even possible for BFGMiner to easily use the autotokens? :x
1388 2015-10-29T23:54:46 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: absolutely.
1389 2015-10-29T23:55:34 <warren> Hmm, the auto-token might not work so well if they intend to query things from this bitcoind from things that aren't bitcoin-cli.
1390 2015-10-29T23:56:07 <gmaxwell> warren: works fine for ntp and other services that do roughly the same thing-- including X11 (xauthority),
1391 2015-10-29T23:56:19 <warren> I guess I add a README to configure RPC manually if they want that, to query from <random other app>
1392 2015-10-29T23:56:26 <Luke-Jr> oh, it's just user:pass in a file
1393 2015-10-29T23:56:27 <gmaxwell> warren: no.
1394 2015-10-29T23:56:35 <gmaxwell> warren: they should go read the token.
1395 2015-10-29T23:56:49 <gmaxwell> warren: and access is controlled by virtue of filesystem permissions.
1396 2015-10-29T23:56:51 <Luke-Jr> hm, not so simple actually
1397 2015-10-29T23:57:11 <warren> gmaxwell: filesystem permission makes it not simple, the random other app shouldn't be able to read anything in the datadir
1398 2015-10-29T23:57:16 <Luke-Jr> right now I just read bitcoin.conf at startup, but that won't work for a token that changes every start
1399 2015-10-29T23:57:26 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: you should do it at connect time.
1400 2015-10-29T23:57:33 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, that's why it's complex
1401 2015-10-29T23:57:38 <gmaxwell> warren: this is a normal construction used by many daemons.
1402 2015-10-29T23:57:45 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: move the functional call from site A to B.
1403 2015-10-29T23:57:46 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: connect-time is for every share/gbt call :/
1404 2015-10-29T23:57:57 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: so?
1405 2015-10-29T23:58:15 <Luke-Jr> just ugly is all
1406 2015-10-29T23:58:16 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it won't be measurably different than opening the connection in the first place.
1407 2015-10-29T23:58:42 <warren> which PR did autotokens go in? I'd like to read the change
1408 2015-10-29T23:58:48 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: right now, connection is only opened once; and that's inside libcurl
1409 2015-10-29T23:59:06 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: great, you only need to read it when the connection is opened.
1410 2015-10-29T23:59:14 <Luke-Jr> yes, but I don't know when that is :P
1411 2015-10-29T23:59:36 <Luke-Jr> I suppose I track dead vs alive.. maybe I can mix it in there
1412 2015-10-29T23:59:46 <sipa> Luke-Jr: then require a password based connection :)