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21 2015-11-05T00:44:12 <dcousens> !
22 2015-11-05T00:44:19 <dcousens> ignore
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116 2015-11-05T04:10:09 <dcousens> when I run with -txindex, it still shows 'TxIndex disabled', unless I put it in my bitcoin.conf
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118 2015-11-05T04:10:23 <dcousens> But I'm pretty sure it *is* actually enabled
119 2015-11-05T04:10:46 <dcousens> Is that just it printing what it loads from bitcoin.conf before it gets to the CLI options?
120 2015-11-05T04:13:58 <dcousens> nvm, it only displays that on the first init, after that it shows as enabled
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264 2015-11-05T09:56:28 <wumpus> dcousens: misreporting it on first start is still a (low prio) bug
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317 2015-11-05T12:01:47 <andytoshi> can there be an option in core to stop representing decimals as json floats in rpc?
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325 2015-11-05T12:17:11 <benjyz1> hi. I have a simple problem. I want to find the outputs of a given address
326 2015-11-05T12:17:20 <benjyz1> like so: blockchain.info/unspent?active=1KFHE7w8BhaENAswwryaoccDb6qcT6DbYY&format=html
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328 2015-11-05T12:17:39 <benjyz1> bitcoin api does not offer it. bitcoinJ does not offer it.. AFAIK
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331 2015-11-05T12:20:00 <jonasschnelli> andytoshi: Do you would prefer a string for monetary values? Or what is the issue your are facing? Scientific notation (like 1e-8, etc.)?
332 2015-11-05T12:20:19 <jonasschnelli> benjyz1: bitcoind and bitcoinj do not provide an address index
333 2015-11-05T12:20:40 <jonasschnelli> benjyz1: it's very expensive to allow querying every address.
334 2015-11-05T12:20:59 <jonasschnelli> If you just wan't to focus serval addresses, use bitcoind's/bitcoin-qt's "importaddress" RPC call.
335 2015-11-05T12:21:23 <andytoshi> jonasschnelli: the issue i'm facing is a json parser that reads numbers into a fixed-width floating type (which i'm aware is inconsistent with json's "agnostic about numbers" attitude but it is what it is)
336 2015-11-05T12:21:25 <andytoshi> strings would be fine
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338 2015-11-05T12:21:37 <andytoshi> satoshis would be better
339 2015-11-05T12:21:50 <jonasschnelli> this would be a heave API change
340 2015-11-05T12:21:54 <jonasschnelli> heavy
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342 2015-11-05T12:22:51 <andytoshi> i'm aware .. but i could probably find complaints about the current format from 5 years ago
343 2015-11-05T12:22:52 <jonasschnelli> andytoshi: i think the current float (actually, in json there is no float, its a "Number" which is specified as double)
344 2015-11-05T12:23:00 <jonasschnelli> ... is okay for most cases
345 2015-11-05T12:23:10 <wumpus> note that bitcoin core doesn't parse it as float either
346 2015-11-05T12:23:28 <andytoshi> jonasschnelli: parsing as a float is definitely not right, i will definitely misread numbers
347 2015-11-05T12:23:35 <jonasschnelli> but i agree satoshis would be better.
348 2015-11-05T12:23:44 <andytoshi> as wumpus says, bitcoin core has its own json parser with a decimal type
349 2015-11-05T12:25:43 <benjyz1> thx. so is there basically some kind of open explorer which integrates well with bitcoinJ e.g.?
350 2015-11-05T12:25:57 <benjyz1> I'm using python-bitcoin
351 2015-11-05T12:26:04 <wumpus> see the function ParseFixedPoint - it's not rocket science, but also entirely triviial: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/utilstrencodings.cpp#L573
352 2015-11-05T12:26:09 * jonasschnelli is thinking about an transition to satoshis for all values in RPC,... first, add a "amount_satoshis" field and deprecate the amount field (or similar)
353 2015-11-05T12:26:16 <jtimon> cfields: I've been thinking about having a consensus module with what's currently in libconsensus separated from util, common, etc. Does that makes sense to you?
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356 2015-11-05T12:26:36 <wumpus> nah, I doubt we should change the API that much at this point, too much relies on the current state of things
357 2015-11-05T12:26:49 <jonasschnelli> right,... agreed
358 2015-11-05T12:26:54 <wumpus> I've tried to add an option to accept satoshis, even have a pull for it somewhere, but it got nowhere
359 2015-11-05T12:27:02 <andytoshi> wumpus: it's not entirely trivial for me to fork a json parser and add a decimal type, which is what i'm having to do
360 2015-11-05T12:27:03 <wumpus> no one cared deeply enough to change it, it's not worth persuing
361 2015-11-05T12:27:05 <jonasschnelli> And it works... one might need to fiddle with the json parser
362 2015-11-05T12:27:16 <andytoshi> ugh, i've been complaining about this for years
363 2015-11-05T12:27:34 <jtimon> cfields: there are 2 .h that are used in libconsensus whose corresponding .cpp are not (amount.h and script_error.h due to CFeeRate and a toString respectively)
364 2015-11-05T12:27:36 <jonasschnelli> andytoshi: you could change your personal bitcoin-core fork to support satoshis for the methods your using
365 2015-11-05T12:28:06 <andytoshi> jonasschnelli: this is true, i suppose
366 2015-11-05T12:28:10 <wumpus> andytoshi: it's easy enough to do btw: just change the functions ValueFromAmount and AmountFromValue in rpcserver.cpp, that's all
367 2015-11-05T12:28:23 <andytoshi> yeah, i see, that's not too much work to maintain
368 2015-11-05T12:28:23 <jonasschnelli> right,.. it's a 5min thing.
369 2015-11-05T12:28:25 <wumpus> all conversion from JSON values to satoshi amounts is centralized there
370 2015-11-05T12:28:39 <wumpus> (and vice versa)
371 2015-11-05T12:28:53 <jonasschnelli> you could even add a startup argument and it might allows so to sneak into master
372 2015-11-05T12:29:03 <wumpus> that's what I tried
373 2015-11-05T12:29:32 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: hah. Didn't knew that. Closes PR?
374 2015-11-05T12:29:36 <jonasschnelli> Closed
375 2015-11-05T12:29:40 <wumpus> after extensive shedpainting i even ended up with four settings: satoshis as number, satoshis as string, eecimal as number, decimal as string
376 2015-11-05T12:29:49 <jtimon> cfields: that way the consensus package doesn't depend on the util package, for example, and if someone includes say util.h in script/script.cpp, the build would fail at linking time
377 2015-11-05T12:29:58 <wumpus> believe me, its not worth persuing these kind of things, they're too ingrained
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379 2015-11-05T12:30:30 <wumpus> the interface is what it is and you'll have to design things around it (so many people already did, somewhat unfortunately)
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381 2015-11-05T12:31:31 <andytoshi> wumpus: ok, thanks for your experience
382 2015-11-05T12:31:34 <andytoshi> i will avoid it :)
383 2015-11-05T12:32:09 <moveonin> Hello guys, I currently operate about 40-50 full nodes at any given time with the number growing constantly. I ran into an issue recently though which will most likely lead to shutting down of most of them unless I figure it out
384 2015-11-05T12:32:18 <jtimon> jonasschnelli: andytoshi: ack on amount_satoshis but is work and as wumpus says nobody seems interested in doing it
385 2015-11-05T12:32:19 <moveonin> I need to severely reduce the memory usage
386 2015-11-05T12:32:20 <jonasschnelli> andytoshi : heres the PR if you don't want to do the typing: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3759
387 2015-11-05T12:32:56 <jonasschnelli> moveonin: what version are you running?
388 2015-11-05T12:33:07 <andytoshi> thanks
389 2015-11-05T12:33:21 <wumpus> andytoshi: jonasschnelli: mind that it's for a previous JSON implemetation and older string parsing functions, so nowadays it would be slightly different
390 2015-11-05T12:33:26 <moveonin> 0.95 at this moment however I am also testing out a build with 0.11 and the issue seems to be present as well
391 2015-11-05T12:33:41 <jonasschnelli> wumpus: good point, .. so andytoshi needs to do the typing. :)
392 2015-11-05T12:33:50 <andytoshi> wumpus: well, json spec more-or-less says that it's my parser's fault
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394 2015-11-05T12:34:04 <moveonin> The memory just grows constantly at some point filling up the ram and jumping into swap while at the same time crashing my other apps due to excesive memory usage
395 2015-11-05T12:34:04 <andytoshi> but the people maintaining my parser are getting antsy at me about allocating for numbers
396 2015-11-05T12:34:09 <jonasschnelli> moveonin: the current master includes a mempool limiting patch... 0.12 should make things better (aim for a release in decemnber)
397 2015-11-05T12:34:13 <moveonin> I have 4GB of ram
398 2015-11-05T12:34:30 <jonasschnelli> OS?
399 2015-11-05T12:34:32 <wumpus> moveonin: have you tried changing the minrelayfee?
400 2015-11-05T12:35:07 <moveonin> Yes, that seems to have improved it a bit as well as dbcache maxconnections all the stuff in laawnj's gist. Any other ideas until the 0.12 release?
401 2015-11-05T12:35:11 <wumpus> moveonin: see also this: https://gist.github.com/laanwj/efe29c7661ce9b6620a7
402 2015-11-05T12:35:19 <moveonin> Already done all those
403 2015-11-05T12:36:08 <wumpus> moveonin: you may be seeing this: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/6876
404 2015-11-05T12:36:11 <moveonin> Currently sitting at 1265M but still seems to be growing, I'll wait some more I guess to see if it ends up filling it all again
405 2015-11-05T12:36:25 <wumpus> moveonin: including export MALLOC_ARENA_MAX=1? that one is new
406 2015-11-05T12:37:13 <nkuttler> so wrt to CLTV, should i do anything with my testnet faucet to ensure the recipients will be on the main chain?
407 2015-11-05T12:38:04 <moveonin> Thanks wumpus I'll check that also
408 2015-11-05T12:38:19 <moveonin> I was actually a bit reluctant for that one as I have other compiled programs on my system
409 2015-11-05T12:38:32 <wumpus> only do it before you start bitcoind, e.g. in a script
410 2015-11-05T12:38:39 <moveonin> scared of negatively affecting those but I guess I'll have to test it
411 2015-11-05T12:38:46 <moveonin> Oh, it resets on system reboot?
412 2015-11-05T12:38:56 <wumpus> no, it only affects the current shell/environment
413 2015-11-05T12:39:24 <wumpus> just make a script bitcoin.sh that does tha texport line and calls bitcoind
414 2015-11-05T12:39:32 <wumpus> won't affect any other programs
415 2015-11-05T12:39:42 <moveonin> ok so I can actually modify my bitcoind start command to something more like export MALLOC_ARENA_MAX=1 && bitcoind?
416 2015-11-05T12:40:02 <wumpus> 'MALLOC_ARENA_MAX=1 bitcoind' should already work
417 2015-11-05T12:40:17 <moveonin> Thanks, I will give it a try
418 2015-11-05T12:40:52 <wumpus> though it will reduce other program's memory use too, if they use threads
419 2015-11-05T12:41:04 <wumpus> *if* you use it glboally (but I wouldn't recommend it either)
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432 2015-11-05T13:02:59 <jtimon> nkuttler: upgrade to support CLTV yourself ?
433 2015-11-05T13:03:42 <jtimon> I mean, that won't ensure anything about your recipients, but it will ensure you are on the main chain
434 2015-11-05T13:06:28 <nkuttler> jtimon: i guess that makes sense
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690 2015-11-05T17:26:41 <benjyz1> hello. I'm interested in payment channels and am studying bitcoinJ
691 2015-11-05T17:27:18 <benjyz1> have channels been used in practise yet?
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700 2015-11-05T17:48:18 <zmanian_> benjyz: unidirectional payment channels are widely supported in Bitcoin ecosystem. See projects like Streamium for user experiences built on top of the technology
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729 2015-11-05T18:31:28 <instagibbs> I assume the purpose of mapMasterKeys is to somehow have multiple passphrases unlock the wallet? Anyone know the intention for it? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet/wallet.cpp#L524
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736 2015-11-05T18:37:14 <gmaxwell> instagibbs: bluematt question mostly; but my belief is that the format would support e.g. the concatination of multiple encrypted wallets, that had different keys. From a UI perspective this isn't supported, however. Also, bitcoin-core specific questions in #bitcoin-core-dev
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738 2015-11-05T18:37:46 <instagibbs> gotcha. Found the commit in question
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751 2015-11-05T18:47:49 <gmaxwell> davec: Your plans for a CLTV enabled release soon, do yo ualso have BIP113 / MedianTimePast -- it's a mempool only policy, no strict need for it, but I'd like to see it go out in the next wave of soft-forks so ideally it should be otherwise inhibited first.
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754 2015-11-05T18:50:31 <BlueMatt> instagibbs: naa, you were right, it was to have multiple master keys
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756 2015-11-05T18:50:51 <BlueMatt> instagibbs: that half was never implemented, obviously, however
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765 2015-11-05T19:01:01 <sipa> meeting?
766 2015-11-05T19:01:40 <wumpus> #startmeeting
767 2015-11-05T19:01:40 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 5 19:01:40 2015 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
768 2015-11-05T19:01:40 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
769 2015-11-05T19:01:58 <wumpus> any topics that need to be discussed?
770 2015-11-05T19:02:13 <jonasschnelli> Topics?
771 2015-11-05T19:02:33 <sipa> suggested topic: sigcache performance (i've been doing benchmarks)
772 2015-11-05T19:02:48 <sipa> suggested topic: softfork
773 2015-11-05T19:02:55 <wumpus> yes, makes sense
774 2015-11-05T19:03:00 <gmaxwell> suggested topic: 0.11.2 / 0.10.4 releases.
775 2015-11-05T19:03:15 <wumpus> ok, first sigcache performance
776 2015-11-05T19:03:23 <wumpus> #topic Sigcache performance
777 2015-11-05T19:03:29 <gmaxwell> "Ouch"
778 2015-11-05T19:03:51 <sipa> so, what i did was benchmark the hitrate of the sigcache for various sigcache sizes
779 2015-11-05T19:04:01 <wumpus> on a reindex?
780 2015-11-05T19:04:05 <sipa> no, live
781 2015-11-05T19:04:19 <gmaxwell> As in, when a block comes in, what is the sigcache hitrate for that block?
782 2015-11-05T19:04:27 <wumpus> somewhat offtopic: is there a good way to reproduce live usage deterministically?
783 2015-11-05T19:04:31 <sipa> obly counting the block ones, not mempool ones
784 2015-11-05T19:04:48 <sipa> wumpus: morcos and suhas have a simulator to replay recorded data iirc
785 2015-11-05T19:04:52 <wumpus> e.g. has anyone implemented storing P2P traffic, replay?
786 2015-11-05T19:04:58 <wumpus> ok
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789 2015-11-05T19:05:18 <sipa> this is on master, with mempool limiting
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791 2015-11-05T19:05:40 <sipa> and with the patch that deletes sigcache entries when they are seen in a block
792 2015-11-05T19:05:49 <gmaxwell> master + the sigcache efficiency improvement + the delete on hit, to be specific.
793 2015-11-05T19:06:05 <sipa> my sigcache was remarkably stable for days with a max of 68 MiB that way
794 2015-11-05T19:06:17 <sipa> resulting in a 15% miss rate
795 2015-11-05T19:06:26 <sipa> wait, 3%
796 2015-11-05T19:06:52 <wumpus> that's useful, so we can now compare the different pulls by perf numbers?
797 2015-11-05T19:07:17 <sipa> though some blocks have extremely high miss rates (over 60%)
798 2015-11-05T19:07:22 <sipa> while others have 0.0000%
799 2015-11-05T19:07:41 <sipa> which indicates that the miners are running different policies
800 2015-11-05T19:08:00 <jgarzik> meta - did the meeting get moved -1 hour ?
801 2015-11-05T19:08:12 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: your time did, US daylight savings time.
802 2015-11-05T19:08:19 <Luke-Jr> ^
803 2015-11-05T19:08:20 <wumpus> no, DST changed, meeting is in UTC
804 2015-11-05T19:08:25 <sipa> meeting is 7pm iceland time :)
805 2015-11-05T19:08:29 <wumpus> yep
806 2015-11-05T19:08:54 <sipa> so, then gmaxwell suggested *always* running script verification for mempool txn
807 2015-11-05T19:09:01 <sipa> even for policy rejected ones
808 2015-11-05T19:09:02 <jgarzik> ah UTC, good
809 2015-11-05T19:09:11 <wumpus> for the 60% miss rate blocks - any idea where the transactions come from? maybe the miners are taking them from their own pushtx interface and not from the network at all
810 2015-11-05T19:09:32 <sipa> which can be justified because fetching the inputs from utxo is already a significant portion of the work anyway
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812 2015-11-05T19:09:40 <gmaxwell> The observation with the stable size is that the size was stable within a very small band, perhaps a few hundred K. There was a guess that most of that 68MB was cruft from before the mempool limiting kicked in that was never being cleared. Though that isn't confirmed. It seems likely.
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814 2015-11-05T19:09:54 <wumpus> heh
815 2015-11-05T19:09:54 <sipa> the result is now that even a 300 MiB only gets down to 15% miss rate
816 2015-11-05T19:09:58 <gmaxwell> "significant portion of the work" especially with libsecp256k1.
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818 2015-11-05T19:10:21 <sipa> so there is just too much crap being relayed to keep it in any reasonably sized cache
819 2015-11-05T19:10:38 <wumpus> that's my experience as well
820 2015-11-05T19:10:40 <gmaxwell> so clearly just verifying rejects and treating them the same is not a good call. :) I'd like to try changing the cache to be a map instead of a set to allow smarter expiration.
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822 2015-11-05T19:11:13 <sipa> another observation is that (with libsecp) the time to not verify is equivalent to around a 25% miss rate
823 2015-11-05T19:11:39 <sipa> or in other words, 1/5th of the work is not script validation
824 2015-11-05T19:11:51 <morcos> sipa: over what time frame did you wait for the miss rate to stabilize
825 2015-11-05T19:11:51 <gmaxwell> I have a specific concern here in that (1) there are some dos attacks if we do not verify rejected transactions, (2) not checking rejected transactions at all _increases_ your misrate if you set a policy which is more restrictive than the typical network, which might result in some race to the bottom.
826 2015-11-05T19:12:01 <sipa> morcos: a day
827 2015-11-05T19:12:13 <morcos> obviously as the mempool is going from 0 -> 300MB you get tons of txs in there that might not be mined for a long time
828 2015-11-05T19:12:14 <gmaxwell> sipa: I assume its still running now two days later?
829 2015-11-05T19:12:19 <sipa> yes
830 2015-11-05T19:12:22 <morcos> over time though those should stay near the bottom
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832 2015-11-05T19:12:29 <wumpus> topic for later: secp256k1 verification readyness
833 2015-11-05T19:12:31 <morcos> i bet it might do better over a longer period of time
834 2015-11-05T19:12:47 <morcos> i'd also like to discuss other connect block latency improvements
835 2015-11-05T19:12:54 <morcos> so we have some goal of what might be reasonable for 0.12
836 2015-11-05T19:13:24 <sipa> anyway, i need to try some other strategy
837 2015-11-05T19:13:35 <gmaxwell> morcos: right now a problem is that the eviction doesn't prefer to kick out old things that are never getting mined. So if crap is has a 'high' ratio to useful things, the cache must be huge to work well.
838 2015-11-05T19:14:03 <sipa> but it seems reasonable that priming the sigcache with transactions that we do not accept into mempool, but who were close, may be worth it
839 2015-11-05T19:14:24 <sipa> however, doing that fot every single transaction is the wrong approach
840 2015-11-05T19:14:49 <wumpus> I think we should be careful not to merge risky performance imporovements last-minute for 0.12 - we will regret those if there turns out to be bugs. May be better to merge them after the release branch, dec 1
841 2015-11-05T19:15:11 <morcos> wumpus: i think most of these things are not risky, and the performance improvements are HUGE
842 2015-11-05T19:15:15 <jgarzik> nod - prioritize getting 0.12 out the door and not blocking it
843 2015-11-05T19:15:15 <sipa> well i think the PR i have out for sigcache changes is a net win
844 2015-11-05T19:15:24 <jgarzik> 0.12 -already- has a lot of net win
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846 2015-11-05T19:15:52 <gmaxwell> I think the existing PR is an obvious win. Also, without sigcache improvements I'm concerned that mempool limiting may have bad effects on the network.
847 2015-11-05T19:16:10 <wumpus> morcos: I'm really risk-averse before releases, master (as in git now) is pretty much stable and would make a good release, I really don't want to regret merging anything now
848 2015-11-05T19:16:20 <gmaxwell> Because right now hitting high miss rates is not very acceptable... but it's much less bad with libsecp256k1 at least.
849 2015-11-05T19:16:24 <morcos> i'd strongly like to include secp256k1, the changes to skip looking up your own txs id (BIP30 and modifyNewCoins, and the sigcache improvements
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852 2015-11-05T19:16:32 <morcos> the hot cache stuff is still far from proven
853 2015-11-05T19:16:38 <sipa> morcos: agree
854 2015-11-05T19:16:59 <wumpus> yes I still like to include secp256k1 for 0.12 too (but that's not the topic now :-)
855 2015-11-05T19:17:04 <gmaxwell> with openssl it only takes a miss rate of a couple percent to totally dominate block verification time.
856 2015-11-05T19:17:05 <morcos> also the CreateNewBlock rewrite is only for miners, but it improves total time from about 3 seconds down to 150ms now on a 300MB mempool
857 2015-11-05T19:17:08 <morcos> we can't leave that out
858 2015-11-05T19:17:22 <morcos> well these things all go together
859 2015-11-05T19:17:33 <morcos> no reason putting in secondary performance gains if you're missing the bigone
860 2015-11-05T19:17:36 <morcos> :)
861 2015-11-05T19:17:43 <jgarzik> I love the CNB change but that seems lower priority than making 0.12 rock solid otherwise - miners can patch up
862 2015-11-05T19:17:53 <gmaxwell> in any case, I think we've covered sigcache for now. Current work is a big improvement, but more work is needed.
863 2015-11-05T19:18:05 <sipa> jgarzik: miners won't patch up, and it is in everyone's interest that miner latency is low
864 2015-11-05T19:18:12 <sipa> not just their own
865 2015-11-05T19:18:18 <sipa> ok
866 2015-11-05T19:18:26 <sipa> next topic
867 2015-11-05T19:18:26 <sipa> ?
868 2015-11-05T19:18:27 <wumpus> #topic softfork releases
869 2015-11-05T19:18:30 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: I don't really agree there. Our expirence in production has not been that. Additionally, to the extent they do it creates inequality.. and this slowness has also contributed to verification free mining.
870 2015-11-05T19:18:51 <morcos> wumpus lets stay on performance goals for 0.12 for a second
871 2015-11-05T19:19:04 <morcos> since it ties closely with sigcache which we just covered
872 2015-11-05T19:19:12 <wumpus> I'd really advise against merging last-mintue performance improvements for 0.12
873 2015-11-05T19:19:34 <morcos> is it last minute if we merge it this month?
874 2015-11-05T19:19:40 <gmaxwell> ^
875 2015-11-05T19:19:41 <wumpus> sort of
876 2015-11-05T19:20:08 <gmaxwell> Put another way, if we'd already branched for 0.12 I'd be proposing backporting this work.
877 2015-11-05T19:20:08 <sipa> wumpus: ok, do you mind setting a deadline for performance improvements in master?
878 2015-11-05T19:20:12 <wumpus> but gmaxwell/sipa feel free to merge things if you're absolutely sure about them, I'm not the only one with commit rights
879 2015-11-05T19:20:28 <gmaxwell> OK
880 2015-11-05T19:20:44 <morcos> i'm leaving to go out of town in 2 weeks for a week
881 2015-11-05T19:20:52 <morcos> lets set the deadline for 2 weeks from tomorrow
882 2015-11-05T19:21:01 <wumpus> I'm really careful and would be pissed if we needed e.g. an urgent minor release to fix up 0.12 because something ill advices went in
883 2015-11-05T19:21:08 <morcos> if we don't all agree they're ready we wait
884 2015-11-05T19:21:14 <sipa> wumpus: fair enough
885 2015-11-05T19:21:16 <wumpus> but the deadline is dec 1
886 2015-11-05T19:21:28 <wumpus> that's the feature freeze - 0.12 branch
887 2015-11-05T19:21:32 <sipa> ok
888 2015-11-05T19:21:36 <gmaxwell> wumpus: I will send you flowers if we screw up. :P We do have a pretty conservative release schedule, in my view. :)
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890 2015-11-05T19:21:44 <morcos> ok, well guys, please help me reviewing those pulls then
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892 2015-11-05T19:21:52 <sipa> morcos: will do!
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894 2015-11-05T19:21:56 <morcos> most importantly to make CreateNewBlock work properly
895 2015-11-05T19:21:56 <gmaxwell> Great. Will do.
896 2015-11-05T19:22:02 <morcos> we have to make a decision about priority
897 2015-11-05T19:22:06 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agree, but better be slow than dead :)
898 2015-11-05T19:22:08 <sipa> yes, i believe CNB is important
899 2015-11-05T19:22:14 <morcos> it can't be fast to have priority, unless we fix it to be dynamic or change its definition
900 2015-11-05T19:22:27 <sipa> wumpus: when do you libsecp in at the latest?
901 2015-11-05T19:22:29 <morcos> i'm ambivalent on that choice
902 2015-11-05T19:22:39 * jgarzik agrees CNB is important - just not important enough to delay the release for over a month, if it comes to that.
903 2015-11-05T19:22:40 <wumpus> sipa: same
904 2015-11-05T19:22:48 <sipa> jgarzik: agree
905 2015-11-05T19:22:49 * Luke-Jr thinks CPFP and RBF are more important than optimisations, especially in CNB which can be slow.
906 2015-11-05T19:22:53 <jgarzik> libsecp256k1 - asap!
907 2015-11-05T19:22:54 <wumpus> wel'll cetainly not delay the relaese on that
908 2015-11-05T19:22:54 <phantomcircuit> I don't see any reason for create new block to consider property
909 2015-11-05T19:22:55 <gmaxwell> Can we go to libsecp256k1 for a moment, this will be fast.
910 2015-11-05T19:23:10 <morcos> yes
911 2015-11-05T19:23:12 <jgarzik> libsecp256k1 yesterday :)
912 2015-11-05T19:23:20 <phantomcircuit> Priority
913 2015-11-05T19:23:20 <wumpus> #topic libsecp256k1 now
914 2015-11-05T19:23:24 <gmaxwell> I think we should merge support right now, like today. We can update it incrementally, but we should get more than just our own nodes running this way.
915 2015-11-05T19:23:29 <wumpus> agree
916 2015-11-05T19:23:33 <sipa> agree
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918 2015-11-05T19:23:36 <wumpus> everyone wants that basically
919 2015-11-05T19:23:38 <gmaxwell> Sipa has current patches for the update. PR them please.
920 2015-11-05T19:23:39 <jgarzik> yes
921 2015-11-05T19:23:48 <sipa> i realized it's unfair that i've been running them for months
922 2015-11-05T19:23:48 *** pepesza_ has quit IRC
923 2015-11-05T19:23:55 <Luke-Jr> sgtm
924 2015-11-05T19:24:00 <sipa> will PR
925 2015-11-05T19:24:09 <morcos> fantastic, most productive IRC meeting ever!
926 2015-11-05T19:24:15 <gmaxwell> Our goal on libsecp256k1 has been to have a release of the library ahead of 0.12 but that doesn't have anything to do with when we merge support for it.
927 2015-11-05T19:24:27 <gmaxwell> okay. good. tada.
928 2015-11-05T19:24:27 *** pepesza_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
929 2015-11-05T19:24:29 <Luke-Jr> suggested topic: hardfork
930 2015-11-05T19:24:31 <jgarzik> morcos, was a decision made on priority?
931 2015-11-05T19:24:34 <wumpus> good
932 2015-11-05T19:24:39 <morcos> jgarzik: not yet
933 2015-11-05T19:24:45 <wumpus> #topic transaction priority
934 2015-11-05T19:25:19 <sipa> i feel that we should get rid of the current priority+separate-processing, and replace it with a functioncthat modifies fee or size of transactions
935 2015-11-05T19:25:20 <gmaxwell> Morcos suggested a lossy way of calcualting priority. It's a bit lame but I think somewhat better than dropping it completely.
936 2015-11-05T19:25:25 <morcos> ok, i think the simplest answer here is people decide #6357 is efficient enough and safe
937 2015-11-05T19:25:37 <sipa> will check 6357 then
938 2015-11-05T19:25:41 <wumpus> #action check #6357 is efficient enough and safe
939 2015-11-05T19:25:41 <morcos> that doesn't change the definition, and so we avoid the political debate on a tight timeline
940 2015-11-05T19:25:47 <morcos> however i can't say i've tested it too much
941 2015-11-05T19:25:49 <sipa> sounds good
942 2015-11-05T19:26:03 <morcos> i think take a look, if its no good we revert to a different definion
943 2015-11-05T19:26:08 *** btc_panhandler has quit IRC
944 2015-11-05T19:26:10 <morcos> but gmaxwell, the one i proposed is flawed
945 2015-11-05T19:26:14 <morcos> it fails in the event of a reorg
946 2015-11-05T19:26:27 <sipa> what failure mode?
947 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <morcos> my suggestion was to only consider the in-chain input value for any further aging of the tx's priority
948 2015-11-05T19:27:23 *** Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-dev
949 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <morcos> but in a reorg, some in chain value might be no longer in chain
950 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <morcos> and you could be overstating its priority
951 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <sipa> "meh"
952 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <morcos> so maybe thats fine
953 2015-11-05T19:27:23 <jgarzik> meh
954 2015-11-05T19:27:28 <gmaxwell> I think thats probably okay. It does not need to be precise.
955 2015-11-05T19:27:38 <gmaxwell> (though it was nice to think it could only understate)
956 2015-11-05T19:27:38 *** pepesza_ has quit IRC
957 2015-11-05T19:27:39 <Luke-Jr> while it sounds fine for a default policy, the old policy should remain possible; hard-coding policy into mempool structures is a regression.
958 2015-11-05T19:27:44 <morcos> ok, well thats basically a subset of 6357 then
959 2015-11-05T19:27:46 <wumpus> as long as it's not easy to cheat
960 2015-11-05T19:27:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: respectfully disagree
961 2015-11-05T19:27:59 <morcos> the scarier part of 6357 is properly updating that amount on block confirmations and reorgs
962 2015-11-05T19:28:00 <gmaxwell> Suggested topic: sigops flooding attack.
963 2015-11-05T19:28:02 <jgarzik> priority is secondary anyway, yes?
964 2015-11-05T19:28:02 <phantomcircuit> Priority changes mostly slowly why not just cache the value and re calculate in the background
965 2015-11-05T19:28:29 <sipa> next topic?
966 2015-11-05T19:28:34 <morcos> phantomcircuit: its important to make the recalculation not require looking up inputs again
967 2015-11-05T19:28:36 <wumpus> #topic sigops flooding attack
968 2015-11-05T19:28:40 *** pepesza_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
969 2015-11-05T19:29:07 <gmaxwell> So, there is an active attack on the network producing transactions with very high sigops counts and medium/high feerates causing miners to mine blocks with just a couple transactions.
970 2015-11-05T19:29:12 <phantomcircuit> Right
971 2015-11-05T19:29:57 <phantomcircuit> Sounds like they're not profit maximizing...
972 2015-11-05T19:30:02 <wumpus> what would be the proposed mitigation? a change to default mining policy?
973 2015-11-05T19:30:03 <morcos> gmaxwell: your proposal is to just change the mining code to be a bit smarter about that?
974 2015-11-05T19:30:10 *** Burrito has joined #bitcoin-dev
975 2015-11-05T19:30:15 <gmaxwell> I have (going back eons) suggested a simple hurestic where size for feerate is replaced with max(size, sigops*blocksizelimit/feeratelimit); for most transactions this does nothing, but for sigops boms it inflates their cost. It's simular to the post office charging for the largest dimension.
976 2015-11-05T19:31:01 <wumpus> sounds sensible
977 2015-11-05T19:31:04 <gmaxwell> it's a suggestion to scale sigops to it's share of the limit relative to the blocksize limit. e.g. a 10k sigops transaction is 500k of 'size'.
978 2015-11-05T19:31:05 <jgarzik> is there a simple relay filter that doesn't impact normal users?
979 2015-11-05T19:31:24 <sipa> gmaxwell: units mismatch
980 2015-11-05T19:31:26 <morcos> gmaxwell: this would affect everything , including min relay fee?
981 2015-11-05T19:31:34 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: style of the attack transactions has been different.
982 2015-11-05T19:31:43 *** pepesza_ has quit IRC
983 2015-11-05T19:31:53 <Luke-Jr> I also have a bytes-per-sigop limit that filters absolutely, which seems like a better solution for this case, since there is no legit use of such things past a certain ratio (perhaps both gmaxwell's and this make the most sense)
984 2015-11-05T19:31:54 *** phoenix53 has joined #bitcoin-dev
985 2015-11-05T19:32:09 <gmaxwell> er. max(size, sigops*blocksizelimit/sigopslimit) (sorry reading and typing at once.
986 2015-11-05T19:32:36 <morcos> gmaxwell: i think it would be an easy change to make the mining code sort by that
987 2015-11-05T19:32:42 <wumpus> great
988 2015-11-05T19:32:46 *** rdbell_ has quit IRC
989 2015-11-05T19:32:52 <morcos> it would be somewhat more invasive to try to plug that into everything that looks at feerate
990 2015-11-05T19:32:53 *** pepesza_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
991 2015-11-05T19:32:54 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think such a threshold must be uselessly high due to inaccurate sigops accounting.
992 2015-11-05T19:33:08 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
993 2015-11-05T19:33:18 <gmaxwell> morcos: doesn't the new mining code depend on the mempool sort?
994 2015-11-05T19:33:19 *** rodkeys has quit IRC
995 2015-11-05T19:33:21 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I don't understand what you mean by that.
996 2015-11-05T19:33:33 <morcos> its a mempool sort just for mining (another index)
997 2015-11-05T19:33:36 <sipa> gmaxwell: separate index
998 2015-11-05T19:33:37 <morcos> not the same that is used for eviction
999 2015-11-05T19:33:39 *** h3xc0d3r has quit IRC
1000 2015-11-05T19:33:40 <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: txouts checksigs (p2pkh) are counted as sigops.
1001 2015-11-05T19:33:49 <sipa> so it can use different scoring
1002 2015-11-05T19:34:12 *** binaryFateCloud has quit IRC
1003 2015-11-05T19:34:14 <gmaxwell> OKAY, well I think using it for just mining is totally fine.
1004 2015-11-05T19:34:19 <sipa> ok
1005 2015-11-05T19:34:23 <sdaftuar> is this attack large enough that the mempool eviction feerate index needs to be reevaluated?
1006 2015-11-05T19:34:27 <morcos> yeah, ok, at least for now
1007 2015-11-05T19:34:28 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: ok? If that were an issue, this is just policy, and we could exclude them..
1008 2015-11-05T19:34:29 <sdaftuar> ie can you fill up a mempool with this garbage?
1009 2015-11-05T19:34:30 <gmaxwell> as I said, for most transaction it will have little to no effect.
1010 2015-11-05T19:34:39 *** binaryFateCloud has joined #bitcoin-dev
1011 2015-11-05T19:34:39 <phantomcircuit> Could also have a backfiring thread continuously spinning trying to build a block with more fees
1012 2015-11-05T19:34:47 <phantomcircuit> Back ground*
1013 2015-11-05T19:34:53 <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: the transactions are small in any case. but any time mining and mempool are misaligned then you do have backlog growth issues.
1014 2015-11-05T19:35:14 <morcos> 72 hour eviction might be good enough to solve for that
1015 2015-11-05T19:35:21 <morcos> oh, but hmm
1016 2015-11-05T19:35:23 <gmaxwell> (also part of why I'd thought to just change it in all the places)
1017 2015-11-05T19:35:35 <sdaftuar> well it'd be nice to know what fraction of the mempool is being taken up with this stuff
1018 2015-11-05T19:36:18 <morcos> yeah worth thinking about attacks anyway, if their effective mining feerate is very low, but then there is no mempool limiting for them b/c their size only feerate is large, they can just fill up your mempool
1019 2015-11-05T19:37:17 <wumpus> ~20 minutes to go for the meeting
1020 2015-11-05T19:37:27 <gmaxwell> okay, perhaps some more analysis to be done here.
1021 2015-11-05T19:37:31 <morcos> yep, agreed
1022 2015-11-05T19:37:37 <morcos> topic suggestion chain limits
1023 2015-11-05T19:37:42 <gmaxwell> I'm glad to hear that people are generally okay with this sort of direction.
1024 2015-11-05T19:37:52 <wumpus> #topic chain limits
1025 2015-11-05T19:38:00 <morcos> sdaftuar ran some analysis
1026 2015-11-05T19:38:04 <sdaftuar> heh. i'm furiously trying to upload my data right now
1027 2015-11-05T19:38:07 <morcos> lots of blocks have big chains
1028 2015-11-05T19:38:24 *** roxtrong_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1029 2015-11-05T19:38:24 <morcos> 40% of blocks have a chain > our proposed limits
1030 2015-11-05T19:38:29 <sipa> do we have idea of what those chains are?
1031 2015-11-05T19:38:43 <sipa> like, who creates them
1032 2015-11-05T19:38:45 <jgarzik> what lengths are revealed in the data?
1033 2015-11-05T19:38:48 <sipa> what kind of use case they look like
1034 2015-11-05T19:38:57 <morcos> the one i looked at in detail seemed to be a service paying the fees on other txs
1035 2015-11-05T19:39:12 *** paulo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1036 2015-11-05T19:39:17 <morcos> it occurred to me that we might should contact some of the exchanges and wallet services
1037 2015-11-05T19:39:17 <gmaxwell> really surprising to find this, since those transactions are highly malleability vulnerable.
1038 2015-11-05T19:39:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I think at least some iOS wallet gladly spends unconfirmed change
1039 2015-11-05T19:39:30 <morcos> its possible that these long chains are delivered to miners out of band
1040 2015-11-05T19:39:43 *** Bkil has joined #bitcoin-dev
1041 2015-11-05T19:39:46 <morcos> if thats the case, they'd be unaffected by relay policy limits anyway
1042 2015-11-05T19:39:52 <wumpus> right
1043 2015-11-05T19:39:57 *** Bkil has quit IRC
1044 2015-11-05T19:40:00 <gmaxwell> and by mallability (or less so at least)
1045 2015-11-05T19:40:23 *** Grouver has joined #bitcoin-dev
1046 2015-11-05T19:40:29 <morcos> the problem is we HAVE to do something
1047 2015-11-05T19:40:35 <morcos> longer chains are a disaster waiting to happen
1048 2015-11-05T19:40:51 <sipa> yes
1049 2015-11-05T19:40:52 <morcos> one thing i noticed from sdaftuars data is that a small bump doesn't make the problem go away
1050 2015-11-05T19:41:02 <morcos> at 50, 25% of blocks, at 100 15% of blocks
1051 2015-11-05T19:41:02 *** pepesza_ has quit IRC
1052 2015-11-05T19:41:11 <phantomcircuit> How long are the chains?
1053 2015-11-05T19:41:11 <sipa> which indicates that it is a small percentage of *very* long chains
1054 2015-11-05T19:41:21 <sipa> rather than an organic distribution of chain lengths
1055 2015-11-05T19:41:28 <sipa> ?
1056 2015-11-05T19:41:41 *** h3xc0d3r has joined #bitcoin-dev
1057 2015-11-05T19:41:54 <morcos> about 4% of the txs in block would violate the limit
1058 2015-11-05T19:42:06 *** pepesza_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1059 2015-11-05T19:42:09 <morcos> this makes sense given the 6% number for txs in the mempool i posted earlier
1060 2015-11-05T19:42:32 <morcos> so yes, the vast majority of txs would not have an issue
1061 2015-11-05T19:43:00 <morcos> when sdaftuar gets his data out there people can look at it and draw their own conclusion
1062 2015-11-05T19:43:03 *** nelisky_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1063 2015-11-05T19:43:03 <morcos> s
1064 2015-11-05T19:43:17 <morcos> should i or someone else reach out to some of the businesses directly and get their viewpoints
1065 2015-11-05T19:43:19 *** nelisky has quit IRC
1066 2015-11-05T19:43:19 *** nelisky_ is now known as nelisky
1067 2015-11-05T19:43:23 <jouke> We create cpfp transactions when we reaceive bitcoins from an unspent chain.
1068 2015-11-05T19:43:26 <jgarzik> At a higher level, trying to move forward, there is always going to be a small percentage outside the limit. Communicate the limit that seems reasonable in a release note, push the change, gauge reaction.
1069 2015-11-05T19:43:46 *** pepesza_ has quit IRC
1070 2015-11-05T19:43:48 <morcos> i kind of like jgarzik's idea
1071 2015-11-05T19:43:54 <morcos> merge now
1072 2015-11-05T19:43:56 <wumpus> jouke: makes sense
1073 2015-11-05T19:43:58 <gmaxwell> jouke: does this result in 40 deep unconfirmed chains.
1074 2015-11-05T19:44:02 <morcos> and announce more clearly
1075 2015-11-05T19:44:03 <jgarzik> perfection is unattainable
1076 2015-11-05T19:44:07 <jouke> gmaxwell: no
1077 2015-11-05T19:44:19 *** pepesza_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1078 2015-11-05T19:44:21 <morcos> but that sets the right tone, of look, this isn't just a preference, its something that really needs to be done
1079 2015-11-05T19:44:22 <wumpus> merge - what pull?
1080 2015-11-05T19:44:24 <jgarzik> "release early, release often" + "communicate early, communicate often"
1081 2015-11-05T19:44:26 <gmaxwell> okay lets just see how that goes, announce and see what happens.
1082 2015-11-05T19:44:29 <morcos> and if the sky falls in, we can rethink
1083 2015-11-05T19:44:31 <sipa> i agreed
1084 2015-11-05T19:44:39 <Luke-Jr> reminder: policy is not a developer decision; let miners deal with figuring out what is ideal
1085 2015-11-05T19:44:47 <morcos> #6771
1086 2015-11-05T19:44:53 <wumpus> #action merge #6771
1087 2015-11-05T19:45:14 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, absolutely - all the more reason to communicate early, let people reason through things on their own, based on their own situations
1088 2015-11-05T19:45:26 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's a command-line flag :)
1089 2015-11-05T19:45:27 <gmaxwell> So we haven't talked about softfork releases / 0.11.2+0.10.4
1090 2015-11-05T19:45:33 <morcos> should i email again the dev list then?
1091 2015-11-05T19:45:37 *** matsjj has quit IRC
1092 2015-11-05T19:45:44 <Luke-Jr> yeah, just saying, going overboard on defaults by contacting businesses etc is too much :P
1093 2015-11-05T19:45:46 <wumpus> #topic softfork releases / 0.11.2+0.10.4
1094 2015-11-05T19:45:51 <gmaxwell> Perhaps we merge and just announce the merge, if someone shows up with something convincing we can back it out.
1095 2015-11-05T19:45:51 *** mengine has quit IRC
1096 2015-11-05T19:45:52 <jgarzik> morcos, can't hurt
1097 2015-11-05T19:46:02 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, merge + list mail
1098 2015-11-05T19:46:03 <morcos> ok, i will email post merge, next
1099 2015-11-05T19:47:03 <gmaxwell> Okay, so are we waiting for any other commits for 0.11.2 to cut an RC there?
1100 2015-11-05T19:47:03 <wumpus> imo: asap, #6948 is merged, will test #6948 on windows tomorrow to see if it gets rid of (most) corruption on crashes
1101 2015-11-05T19:47:14 *** fuc has joined #bitcoin-dev
1102 2015-11-05T19:47:16 <gmaxwell> The things I was tracking was leveldb fixes, and MTP, and both are in.
1103 2015-11-05T19:47:27 <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I have a PR with a bunch of fixes for 0.11.2
1104 2015-11-05T19:47:32 <gmaxwell> If we RC we can get more windows testers, (almost universally they need binaries)
1105 2015-11-05T19:47:38 <wumpus> eh one of them is the undo flush fix, don't know the number by head
1106 2015-11-05T19:47:44 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, well... by back out do you mean massively increase the limit?
1107 2015-11-05T19:47:49 <gmaxwell> ah undo flush isn't in okay.
1108 2015-11-05T19:47:52 <wumpus> that one needs to go in too
1109 2015-11-05T19:47:56 <wumpus> right.
1110 2015-11-05T19:47:59 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6825
1111 2015-11-05T19:48:05 *** phoenix53 has quit IRC
1112 2015-11-05T19:48:07 *** binaryFateCloud has quit IRC
1113 2015-11-05T19:48:34 <wumpus> then roll out 0.11.2 and 0.10.4 tomorrow
1114 2015-11-05T19:48:53 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: should I update this PR before then, or just merge what's there?
1115 2015-11-05T19:48:58 *** allah_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1116 2015-11-05T19:48:59 *** MrHodl has quit IRC
1117 2015-11-05T19:49:10 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: sure
1118 2015-11-05T19:49:14 <gmaxwell> We need to move fairly quickly on this, as there are miners on mainnet now running master who will begin CLTV voting (I haven't checked if any are in the chain, but there are public stratum servers returning v4 work). Not _urgently_, mind you, as it still takes a lot of blocks to trigger, but we cannot delay much. :)
1119 2015-11-05T19:49:30 <wumpus> hence ,tomorrow
1120 2015-11-05T19:49:32 <gmaxwell> Tomrrow sounds good to me.
1121 2015-11-05T19:49:36 <gmaxwell> (not just good, great).
1122 2015-11-05T19:49:44 <Luke-Jr> sure = update first, or just merge what's there now?
1123 2015-11-05T19:49:47 *** binaryFateCloud has joined #bitcoin-dev
1124 2015-11-05T19:50:02 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: I'd suggest just leaving it at is, not make last minute changes, so people cna review it
1125 2015-11-05T19:50:06 <Luke-Jr> k
1126 2015-11-05T19:50:06 *** nwilcox has joined #bitcoin-dev
1127 2015-11-05T19:50:34 <gmaxwell> okay, sounds good, will review luke's patches.
1128 2015-11-05T19:50:42 <Luke-Jr> ok, removed [WIP] tag from it to indicate final state
1129 2015-11-05T19:50:51 <wumpus> #action review #6825 ASAP
1130 2015-11-05T19:50:52 * btcdrak is late again
1131 2015-11-05T19:50:54 <gmaxwell> (oh also, testnet is CLTV locked already and constantly forking...)
1132 2015-11-05T19:51:03 <Luke-Jr> I'll go do an equivalent branch for 0.10 with only the same commits
1133 2015-11-05T19:51:16 *** btc_panhandler has joined #bitcoin-dev
1134 2015-11-05T19:52:08 <wumpus> ok, thanks
1135 2015-11-05T19:52:21 <wumpus> I think that concludes this topic, anything else?
1136 2015-11-05T19:52:53 <gmaxwell> Okay luke wanted to discuss 'hardfork', and I think this really meant scaling bitcoin things. The closing date for proposals for the workshop is the 9th, and several people have BIPs/proposals in flight (including myself). I dunno if there is anything more to discuss on that in this meeting.
1137 2015-11-05T19:53:05 *** johnsoft has quit IRC
1138 2015-11-05T19:53:11 <wumpus> there's 10 minutes left - I don't think that's enough for 'hardfork' discussion
1139 2015-11-05T19:53:23 <wumpus> *less than
1140 2015-11-05T19:53:25 <morcos> i'd like cover briefly one thing regarding mempools and mining
1141 2015-11-05T19:53:33 <wumpus> #topic mempools and mining
1142 2015-11-05T19:53:35 <gmaxwell> Agreed.
1143 2015-11-05T19:53:38 <jgarzik> +1 skip Scaling/hardfork discussion in this meeting
1144 2015-11-05T19:53:42 <jgarzik> maybe after
1145 2015-11-05T19:54:05 <morcos> when we did most of our analysis of limited mempools, we assumed a CPFP mining algo. however that proved a bit ambitious for 0.12, and i opted fro just speeding up the existing algo
1146 2015-11-05T19:54:26 <morcos> so that that means is we haven't really analyzed matt's pull (forget the number) in the context of the existing mining algorithm
1147 2015-11-05T19:54:43 <morcos> its not clear that there isn't some abuse possible
1148 2015-11-05T19:55:08 <gmaxwell> oh suggested topic: "Should we be working on getting the opt-in RBF for 0.12?"
1149 2015-11-05T19:55:11 <morcos> i will try to spend some time thinking about this, but just wnated to flag it for other people as well.
1150 2015-11-05T19:55:34 <wumpus> #action topic for next week: "Should we be working on getting the opt-in RBF for 0.12?"
1151 2015-11-05T19:55:41 <gmaxwell> morcos: okay, important thing to determine is what form the abuse takes if so.. e.g. getting excess priority from it is probably not very concerning.
1152 2015-11-05T19:56:23 <morcos> gmaxwell: yeah i think the concern is artificially boosting the relay, or DoS miners with computationaly complexity or free bandwidth relay
1153 2015-11-05T19:56:33 <morcos> btw, +1 to RBF for 0.12
1154 2015-11-05T19:57:02 <morcos> i know this is a lot of big stuff in the next month, but its just scratching the tip of the iceberg for all we have to do, so lets do it!
1155 2015-11-05T19:57:33 *** bedeho has quit IRC
1156 2015-11-05T19:57:37 <gmaxwell> That my view too, we can discuss more next week, but I'll take that as a tenitive as we should move towards that... see where things are next week.
1157 2015-11-05T19:58:10 <btcdrak> +1 for RBF in 0.12
1158 2015-11-05T19:58:19 <sdaftuar> for advancing the ball on RBF, is it time to get opinoins from people who were opposed to earlier versions?
1159 2015-11-05T19:58:38 <btcdrak> sdaftuar: I think the optin already deal with that
1160 2015-11-05T19:58:48 <phantomcircuit> agreed
1161 2015-11-05T19:58:49 <jgarzik> I would be for full-bore RBF if we could rope in Coinbase and Bitpay
1162 2015-11-05T19:58:56 <jgarzik> it's mainly a network-user-impact question, to me
1163 2015-11-05T19:58:57 <jtimon> yep, ACK RBF (I didn't say anything but I would happily ack the removal of priority as well...)
1164 2015-11-05T19:59:07 <wumpus> me too, I prefer full RBF, but any RBF would be a step forward
1165 2015-11-05T19:59:12 <jgarzik> long term ACK RBF
1166 2015-11-05T19:59:21 <phantomcircuit> jgarzik, it's opt in only, doesn't effect anybody on the network today
1167 2015-11-05T19:59:21 <gmaxwell> Opt-in had the "then don't use it" answer which I think is essential to make progress.
1168 2015-11-05T19:59:23 <morcos> is opt-in somehow worse than full
1169 2015-11-05T19:59:28 <sdaftuar> morcos: no
1170 2015-11-05T19:59:39 <wumpus> no, opt-in is not worse than full, some other proposals were
1171 2015-11-05T19:59:42 <sdaftuar> i think we need to make clear what users who don't want to accept opt-in transactions need to do
1172 2015-11-05T19:59:46 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: agreed. morcos: no
1173 2015-11-05T19:59:52 <sdaftuar> so that no one is surprised/not ready
1174 2015-11-05T19:59:55 <jgarzik> it is good to make progress towards RBF
1175 2015-11-05T19:59:56 <gmaxwell> We've been talking about this long term for years now but it's too easily politically attacked, where opt-in resolves that.
1176 2015-11-05T19:59:59 <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: sounds good.
1177 2015-11-05T20:00:00 <jgarzik> poke users along
1178 2015-11-05T20:00:01 <jgarzik> gently
1179 2015-11-05T20:00:10 <wumpus> gmaxwell: agree
1180 2015-11-05T20:00:13 <phantomcircuit> morcos, it simply means you have to opt into the transaction being replaceable (of course miners can replace whatever they want already but it makes the *default* be opt into replacement)
1181 2015-11-05T20:00:17 <btcdrak> it's already apparent from the PR ACKs how much it is anticipated
1182 2015-11-05T20:00:35 <morcos> yes, i understood, just trying to parse peoples support for Full RBF also means support for opt-in (full) RBF
1183 2015-11-05T20:00:38 <jtimon> morcos: opt in is more complicated than full, just that
1184 2015-11-05T20:00:56 <jgarzik> nod
1185 2015-11-05T20:01:01 <wumpus> #meetingend
1186 2015-11-05T20:01:03 <gmaxwell> morcos: yes, I think everyone who supports full rbf supports this; I believe I've never heard other wise (after some explination at least)
1187 2015-11-05T20:01:06 <wumpus> #meetingstop
1188 2015-11-05T20:01:07 <gmaxwell> Thanks all.
1189 2015-11-05T20:01:14 <btcdrak> #exitmeeting
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1191 2015-11-05T20:01:22 <mcelrath> Argh daylight savings time.
1192 2015-11-05T20:01:23 <gmaxwell> #nomeetingnonono
1193 2015-11-05T20:01:25 <btcdrak> #meedingexit
1194 2015-11-05T20:01:29 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1195 2015-11-05T20:01:29 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 5 20:01:29 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1196 2015-11-05T20:01:29 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-05-19.01.html
1197 2015-11-05T20:01:29 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-05-19.01.txt
1198 2015-11-05T20:01:29 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-05-19.01.log.html
1199 2015-11-05T20:01:35 <btcdrak> #rekt
1200 2015-11-05T20:01:35 <wumpus> hah btcdrak
1201 2015-11-05T20:01:36 <jonasschnelli> :9
1202 2015-11-05T20:01:39 <sdaftuar> fyi i just posted a link to the data on in-block chains: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kkh0g4kl9qwt1cx/alldata2.gz?dl=0
1203 2015-11-05T20:01:47 <sdaftuar> it's a big file
1204 2015-11-05T20:01:58 <btcdrak> nice work sdaftuar
1205 2015-11-05T20:02:12 <sdaftuar> but it lists for every tx in every block i looked at (roughly a year's worth) the number of in-block ancestors and descendants, and size with ancestors and size with decsendants
1206 2015-11-05T20:02:52 <cfields> ...
1207 2015-11-05T20:03:06 <cfields> i was finally on time for once, i guess dst screwed me?
1208 2015-11-05T20:03:20 <btcdrak> cfield: me too, again
1209 2015-11-05T20:03:25 <gmaxwell> cfields: don't feel bad, so matt was apparently sitting in front of me and I thought he was in the meeting, and he wasn't aware of it!
1210 2015-11-05T20:03:36 <gmaxwell> (though he was the last one to speak in here before it started)
1211 2015-11-05T20:03:50 <gmaxwell> cfields: yes, dst got you, US's turn this week, last week europe got the DST confusion.
1212 2015-11-05T20:04:01 <cfields> heh
1213 2015-11-05T20:04:11 <cfields> ok, will read backlog
1214 2015-11-05T20:04:36 <morcos> cfields: improper use of google calendar
1215 2015-11-05T20:05:12 <cfields> morcos: improper use of mental-reminder. calendar would be an upgrade.
1216 2015-11-05T20:05:16 <cfields> in fact, doing that now
1217 2015-11-05T20:05:19 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: with PT's patch, to get RBF behavior you must set nseq < max-1, which isn't a norm for wallets today.
1218 2015-11-05T20:05:22 <sdaftuar> btw #6494 could use some reviewing love if we want to get headers announcements in for 0.12
1219 2015-11-05T20:05:30 <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: above you made it sound like it applies to all existing txn but that isn't so. :)
1220 2015-11-05T20:05:55 <morcos> wumpus or other commit access people, could we get some 0.12 milestones?
1221 2015-11-05T20:06:21 <gmaxwell> I'm adding some.
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1223 2015-11-05T20:06:57 <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, didn't mean to imply that; thus "opt into"
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1225 2015-11-05T20:07:51 <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: if a wallet sets sequence number on an input in order to opt-in, are eg payment processors going to reject those txes without making changes to their systems?
1226 2015-11-05T20:08:06 <sdaftuar> i assumed they'd need to make a change
1227 2015-11-05T20:08:17 <sdaftuar> (though a simple one)
1228 2015-11-05T20:08:52 <jgarzik> cfields, improper use of google calendar here too - just reset to UTC :)
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1230 2015-11-05T20:09:18 <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: depends on their existing standardness rules, some already would delay these (as they are "locktime transactions")
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1232 2015-11-05T20:09:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: there is no UTC in google calendar, no kidding.
1233 2015-11-05T20:09:28 <sdaftuar> but if the locktime is in the past...
1234 2015-11-05T20:09:50 <sdaftuar> for instance bitcoin core currently sets locktime to be height-10 or something right?
1235 2015-11-05T20:09:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that's why it's planned in iceland time
1236 2015-11-05T20:09:59 <jtimon> sdaftuar: miners (well, all nodes) implementing opt-in RBF policy will only replace conflicts when the replaced tx is marked with the opt-in seq
1237 2015-11-05T20:10:10 <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: yes, but some have previously done this unconditionally. I think it's mostly a communications question, as anyone doing zero conf risk assessment must be very aware of standardness rules and such.
1238 2015-11-05T20:10:46 <sdaftuar> ok, agreed.
1239 2015-11-05T20:11:20 <Luke-Jr> 0.10 backport branch is at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6953
1240 2015-11-05T20:11:28 <gmaxwell> (so if you are not prepared to fairly quickly update your behavior, you've already lost in any case-- and here we'd be giving months notice in any case)
1241 2015-11-05T20:12:13 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I faked it with GMT+0
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1243 2015-11-05T20:12:37 <paulo_> what meeting bot do you use? home made?
1244 2015-11-05T20:12:52 <wumpus> paulo_: http://meetbot.debian.net/Manual.html
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1361 2015-11-05T22:21:44 <esso> What are some people's thoughts on the fact that there is almost no one representing Bitcoin in the W3C Web Payments Interest Group? The Chairman of this group recently said this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rl3f6/the_status_of_bitcoin_in_the_w3c_web_payments/
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