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29 2015-11-11T00:50:26 <warren> cfields: ping
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42 2015-11-11T01:22:13 <Cyndre> is anyone working on solvable block predicting?
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176 2015-11-11T06:10:24 <mjerr> re weak blocks: rusty, on the mailist list I read it is (more or less) removing those 4% of empty mined blocks, and I guess it is also improving block propagation. what do your results show?
177 2015-11-11T06:10:49 <rusty> mjerr: well, I'm not doing the mandatory version, just using it as a method of network encoding.
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179 2015-11-11T06:11:45 <mjerr> rusty, mandatory version?
180 2015-11-11T06:11:47 <rusty> I use bitcoin-corpus, and simulate the four peers mining with some probability (default, 1 in 30) that one generates a weak block from its mempool.
181 2015-11-11T06:12:33 <rusty> mjerr: the latest bitcoin-dev proposal talks about making it a consensus protocol requirement. That's beyond what I'm doing :)
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184 2015-11-11T06:13:10 <rusty> mjerr: so, with that, and assuming 2 bytes for each tx (simple encoding, 0xFFFF means a literal tx, lower means see the previous weak block), I get:
185 2015-11-11T06:13:26 <mjerr> oh really, I thought it's just an additional protocol
186 2015-11-11T06:14:55 <rusty> mjerr: yeah, normally is, just making sure :)
187 2015-11-11T06:16:03 <rusty> Sorry, just re-running to get stats.
188 2015-11-11T06:17:12 <rusty> So, it ends up with a 704 real blocks, with one peer simulated sending to the other three peers. Normally that would be 812,794,263 bytes.
189 2015-11-11T06:17:37 <rusty> With 30-second weak blocks (and assuming weak blocks propagate instantly!) 37,244,982 bytes.
190 2015-11-11T06:18:09 <rusty> If we further allow the first weak block to be 16 times weaker, that drops down to 21,483,033 bytes.
191 2015-11-11T06:18:28 <mjerr> but that is mainly because of IBLT?
192 2015-11-11T06:18:33 <rusty> That's without IBLT!
193 2015-11-11T06:18:38 <mjerr> :o
194 2015-11-11T06:18:46 <rusty> I've got IBLT down to 17,979,912 bytes, with 95% recovery.
195 2015-11-11T06:19:37 <aj> 37,244,982 is 51kB per block? pretty nice!
196 2015-11-11T06:19:53 <mjerr> I guess I should read the latest posts about it. Why is it that much smaller? Don't the weak blocks have to include the txs?
197 2015-11-11T06:19:55 <rusty> The IBLT simulation is more realistic, IMHO. The "everyone knows about weak blocks" assumption is poor.
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199 2015-11-11T06:20:21 <rusty> mjerr: Oh, yeah, major caveat: that's not the bandwidth for the *weak blocks*, just the *strong ones*.
200 2015-11-11T06:20:52 <rusty> mjerr: since we're optimizing not for total bw use, but for latency of strong block propagation.
201 2015-11-11T06:20:59 <mjerr> ahhh I see
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203 2015-11-11T06:21:11 <rusty> mjerr: whereas IBLT really is total bw
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205 2015-11-11T06:21:47 <mjerr> so we would have the other 800MB between the blocks without IBLT - which is a major improvement anyway
206 2015-11-11T06:21:48 <rusty> aj: I think we really want the "first weak block boost" version, since if mempools are full, first blocks are full.
207 2015-11-11T06:22:08 <mjerr> the 51kb per block is mainly the list of tx included?
208 2015-11-11T06:22:18 <rusty> mjerr: let me check...
209 2015-11-11T06:23:25 <aj> rusty: are weak blocks compressed (based on previous weak blocks) as well? having a latency of ~2 minutes / MB for the weak blocks to be validated and usable might make it pretty realistic?
210 2015-11-11T06:23:41 <rusty> aj: yeah, that's the assumption, but I didn't simualte that.
211 2015-11-11T06:24:18 <rusty> aj: obviously the total bw use will be > currently, if only due to overheads.
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213 2015-11-11T06:25:37 <mjerr> but we need IBLT to not have every miner spam the network with halfly solved blocks, right? it would make the spam pretty low bw at least
214 2015-11-11T06:26:19 <aj> rusty: oh, hey, i guess weak blocks would allow for a fractionally-confirmed transaction (as opposed to 0-conf/unconfirmed)
215 2015-11-11T06:26:42 <rusty> mjerr: it's still hard to generate a weak block.
216 2015-11-11T06:26:51 <rusty> aj: yeah, that's one appeal; insight into mempool.
217 2015-11-11T06:27:02 <gmaxwell> aj: not really; because there is no forcing function to keep including it. It's a hashpower estimator
218 2015-11-11T06:27:16 <gmaxwell> but that isn't equivilent to confirmation.
219 2015-11-11T06:27:42 <aj> gmaxwell: that just puts it on the same scale as 0-conf transactions :)
220 2015-11-11T06:28:14 <mjerr> rusty, I see a 5% difficult hurdle. That would mean 20 weak blocks for one solution? Doesn't sound too bad, but might still congest the network without IBLT
221 2015-11-11T06:28:36 <gmaxwell> rusty's figures are assuming miners aren't playing along.
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223 2015-11-11T06:29:53 <rusty> gmaxwell: kind of; I'm generating weak blocks from the real mempools, which are often close. But yeah, there's some surprise blocks, so I guess that's similar to what we'd see in a real deployment.
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225 2015-11-11T06:33:20 <rusty> mjerr: I think it's workable initially without IBLT. Someone just needs to implement it and try :)
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227 2015-11-11T06:33:32 <gmaxwell> rusty: how much of the remaining size is from the 2-byte indexes? those can be shrunk to almost nothing if miners just cooperate in sorting (even if not forced).
228 2015-11-11T06:33:50 <rusty> gmaxwell: indeed :)
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231 2015-11-11T06:34:38 <rusty> gmaxwell: rle should work pretty well if they're in fee-rate order.
232 2015-11-11T06:34:51 <rusty> gmaxwell: let me get that figure...
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235 2015-11-11T06:38:11 <rusty> gmaxwell: ah, that's simple. I assume 2 bytes for every tx, ref or no. So ...
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237 2015-11-11T06:38:38 <rusty> 3,045,258 of refs.
238 2015-11-11T06:39:07 <rusty> 15% or so, which is why I didn't optimize that futher.
239 2015-11-11T06:39:29 <rusty> Damn gtg...
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244 2015-11-11T06:48:35 <hass> get
245 2015-11-11T06:50:18 <hass> $.get(backend)
246 2015-11-11T06:51:00 <hass> mine
247 2015-11-11T06:51:04 <hass> bit
248 2015-11-11T06:51:34 <hass> <q>
249 2015-11-11T06:51:48 <hass> retriev
250 2015-11-11T06:52:00 <hass> clear code
251 2015-11-11T06:52:05 <hass> cleartext
252 2015-11-11T06:52:16 <hass> server
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254 2015-11-11T06:52:30 <hass> open
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298 2015-11-11T07:47:07 <matsjj_> from the P2SH BIP16 "Transactions that redeem these pay-to-script outpoints are only considered standard if the serialized script - also referred to as the redeemScript - is, itself, one of the other standard transaction types." - this is no longer correct, right?
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312 2015-11-11T08:10:22 <Luke-Jr> matsjj_: it is still correct. you may be confusing the IsStandard method (and similar policy logic) in Bitcoin Core with "standard"
313 2015-11-11T08:10:41 <Luke-Jr> matsjj_: policy is a node-specific behaviour, not a protocol rule, and isn't specified by BIPs
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316 2015-11-11T08:11:20 <matsjj_> Oh I guess I am. What is meant with "standard" in the BIP then?
317 2015-11-11T08:11:22 <Luke-Jr> basically that quote is saying "any bare script standard, is hereby incorporated as a P2SH standard" ;)
318 2015-11-11T08:11:47 <Luke-Jr> matsjj_: standards are common things (intended to be) used by multiple cooperating software
319 2015-11-11T08:12:42 <Luke-Jr> so BIP 11, for example, is a standard defining how to do M-of-N transactions
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322 2015-11-11T08:13:07 <Luke-Jr> BIP 16 basically is saying "BIP 11 is now valid in P2SH form"
323 2015-11-11T08:14:54 <matsjj_> I know what standards are in general ;) - so "standard" in the quote has nothing to do with "IsStandard", correct?
324 2015-11-11T08:15:29 <shesek> Luke-Jr, hmm, but there are scripts that are non-standard when used as a regular output script, but are standard when used via p2sh
325 2015-11-11T08:16:50 <Luke-Jr> matsjj_: it may have been intended that way originally, but shouldn't be conflated that way
326 2015-11-11T08:17:10 <Luke-Jr> shesek: no, you're making the same confusion. standards are interoperability stuff, not relay policy.
327 2015-11-11T08:17:58 <Luke-Jr> standards may *influence* what nodes and miners choose to use for policy, but they are independent from it
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329 2015-11-11T08:18:36 <Luke-Jr> anyone can choose to not relay BIP 11, for example; or (more common) choose to relay OP_RETURN <data> despite no standards existing for that
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335 2015-11-11T08:22:55 <Luke-Jr> perhaps more importantly: standards/BIPs should be designed optimally, and not with regard to what current policies exist on the network
336 2015-11-11T08:23:05 <Luke-Jr> and the latter will be changed if the BIP is accepted
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492 2015-11-11T13:58:13 <isysd> gentlemen, introducing bitjws - bitcoin message signing for JSON Web Signatures
493 2015-11-11T13:58:21 <isysd> https://github.com/deginner/bitjws
494 2015-11-11T13:58:26 *** agricocb has quit IRC
495 2015-11-11T13:58:47 <isysd> and you are all invited to participate in a contest testing the above, with a 1 BTC prize
496 2015-11-11T13:58:52 <isysd> https://github.com/deginner/swagxample/wiki/Capture-The-Flag-Game-1
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743 2015-11-11T17:48:58 <stiell> What's the status on stealth addresses? I know of BIP-47, but it's somewhat complicated by an initial "notification transaction".
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748 2015-11-11T17:57:47 <petertodd> stiell: I'm probably going to formally declare the stealth BIP "abandoned" - I think we've got better ideas of how to do it now, and my thinking is layers on top of bitcoin like Lightning will be more important anyway, including re: privacy
749 2015-11-11T17:58:01 <petertodd> stiell: (specifically, my stealth BIP)
750 2015-11-11T17:58:19 <petertodd> stiell: haven't thought too much about BIP47 personally, been busy with other stuff
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764 2015-11-11T18:18:37 <stiell> petertodd: I have an idea of a protocol where stealth payments are indistinguishable from normal P2PKH transactions, with no communication between parties required (other than the stealth address), and where the recipient can use SPV.
765 2015-11-11T18:18:57 <petertodd> stiell: cool! you should publish it :)
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767 2015-11-11T18:20:07 <gmaxwell> stiell: we intentionally chose to not steal the DSA nonce from the signatures, because then it constrains what _kinds_ of coins you can spend to SA users.
768 2015-11-11T18:20:13 <petertodd> stiell: keep in mind, I didn't invent the hard parts of stealth addresses, so don't think my approval is necessarily what you want to say this is a good idea :) publishing to the bitcoin-dev mailing list is a good idea
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770 2015-11-11T18:20:44 <petertodd> stiell: and yeah, gmaxwell has a good point there
771 2015-11-11T18:21:24 <gmaxwell> In case you were thinking of that. (but perhaps not, it doesn't permit efficient, private, lite clients either)
772 2015-11-11T18:22:10 <petertodd> stiell: something I'm seriously considering is refocusing on stealth where you have to communicate everything to the recipient or the tx just doesn't happen - harder, but it matches schemes which I expect to exist anyway for scalability reasons
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775 2015-11-11T18:24:53 <stiell> I'm thinking about deriving the "ephemeral" keypair by combining the {public,private} key of one input with the {private,public} stealth-address key.
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778 2015-11-11T18:25:25 <petertodd> stiell: right, that's exacty the issue gmaxwell is talking about
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783 2015-11-11T18:28:37 <stiell> A Bloom filer could be applied to the resulting ephemeral address, iterating until a matching address is found.
784 2015-11-11T18:31:34 <stiell> Using the key of an input does put a constraint on the transaction, but is it really a problem, other than appearing slightly hackish?
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792 2015-11-11T18:44:15 <stiell> It's the same idea as in BIP47, which uses "the first pubkey-exposing input" of the notification transaction together with the recipient's key to derive a shared secret.
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803 2015-11-11T19:02:07 <stiell> One problem I haven't figured out is how computationally intense it would be to process the transactions, and how to determine that a transaction is a false positive.
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846 2015-11-11T20:41:21 <stiell> petertodd: "to communicate everything to the recipient or the tx just doesn't happen" -- is that different from what I'm trying, i.e. have all information necessary for the recipient in the tx itself?
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849 2015-11-11T20:43:09 <gmaxwell> stiell: I consider proposers that restrict whom you can sends bitcoins to as a side effect of your own key configuration to be complete non-starters.
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851 2015-11-11T20:43:55 <gmaxwell> the bloom filter thing used today by some lite wallets provides virtually no privacy; and it's a big performance hit on nodes. I expect it to go away and be replaced by something else in the future.
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856 2015-11-11T20:55:40 <stiell> Do those wallets follow the proposed solution in https://eprint.iacr.org/2014/763.pdf ?
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858 2015-11-11T21:01:59 <stiell> gmaxwell: I'm not too familiar with "special" transaction outputs or key configurations. Do you have an example of something that would not work with a protocal that uses "the first pubkey-exposing input"?
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889 2015-11-11T22:17:25 <nickler> stiell: No they don't follow the suggestion from the paper because for the problems with Bloom filters as they are used now there is no simple fix.
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891 2015-11-11T22:17:44 <nickler> stiell: see also https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/bitcoinj/Ys13qkTwcNg/9qxnhwnkeoIJ
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