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 33 2015-11-13T00:58:52  <jtimon> sipa: "estimation unfortunately relies on knowing other's policies", not necessarily, we shouldn't make assumption's about the input requirements or sophistication of policies at all
 34 2015-11-13T01:00:43  <jtimon> there are concieable policies that don't rely on knowing other's policies (ie random policy, which will be included in bitcoin JT0.12)
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 36 2015-11-13T01:01:06  <phantomcircuit> jtimon, you have to make some kind of guess about what the miners average policy is
 37 2015-11-13T01:02:25  <jtimon> phantomcircuit: ?
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 39 2015-11-13T01:03:46  <phantomcircuit> jtimon, randomly selecting transactions as policy has some pretty comical negative side effects :P
 40 2015-11-13T01:04:11  <jtimon> I think of a policy interface that returns true or false with each call (with cute error strings in validationState when false, analogous to libconsensus)
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 42 2015-11-13T01:04:37  <sipa> jtimon: sure, but that doesn't mean that you do a good fee estimation if miners adopt it
 43 2015-11-13T01:05:30  <sipa> jtimon: if everyone adopted their own policies of various kinds, of various complexity, and of varying competence... fee estimation would be pretty useful
 44 2015-11-13T01:05:46  <sipa> *useless
 45 2015-11-13T01:05:54  <jtimon> phantomcircuit: no denial, but I claim that the trivial implementation of a random policy is a good signal of a good encapsulation and potentially also interesting for testing
 46 2015-11-13T01:06:42  <sipa> jtimon: i think we're talking about different things
 47 2015-11-13T01:07:16  <sipa> jtimon: what encapsulation a miner uses for its policy interface implementation has nothing to do with how well others can estimate their parameters
 48 2015-11-13T01:07:40  <jtimon> sipa: of course I don't expect miners to adopt a random policy, at most use it as a template for their own policy that maybe extends default policy (but doesn't need to)
 49 2015-11-13T01:08:09  <sipa> jtimon: i'm just saying that the less you know about other's policies, the worse fee estimation will work
 50 2015-11-13T01:08:31  <sipa> jtimon: that's not a reason against having configurable policies... just an unfortunate side effect
 51 2015-11-13T01:08:45  <jtimon> the first random policy in bitcoin jt will be unfortunately limited to 3 functions
 52 2015-11-13T01:08:53  <jtimon> in policy/policy
 53 2015-11-13T01:11:08  <jtimon> I don't know anything about any policy, I just know about existing code in bitcoin core that could be put together and encapsulated (sound similar but it's not the same) in the policy dir
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 57 2015-11-13T01:13:26  <sipa> jtimon: i don't really believe in good encapsulation for policy; what you can call policy is defined by the logic that calls it
 58 2015-11-13T01:13:33  <jtimon> I know it's currently trivial to do so from master (of course with very limited policy functionality) so jt0.12 will have it, but let's stop advertising my personal software fork
 59 2015-11-13T01:13:53  <sipa> yes, i know it's possible in the current code
 60 2015-11-13T01:14:02  <jtimon> then you don't believe encapsulation is generally good
 61 2015-11-13T01:14:11  <sipa> i'm sure it's also possible in the final 0.12 code, but perhaps in a completely different way
 62 2015-11-13T01:14:53  <jtimon> I'm not asking for this to be included in 0.12
 63 2015-11-13T01:15:37  <sipa> i guess maybe encapsulation isn't the word to use; but i don't think it can be a stable interface
 64 2015-11-13T01:15:53  <sipa> policy is just whatever is left to configure in a sane way after implementing the logic
 65 2015-11-13T01:16:14  <sipa> if that logic now allows replacement, fine, your policy may need means to configure what is replacable
 66 2015-11-13T01:16:33  <jtimon> it's just a branch, like petertodd did with full RBF for a while (btw, will he keep doing it after optin RBF?)
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 68 2015-11-13T01:17:13  <sipa> whatever policy configuration you want, it will break
 69 2015-11-13T01:17:14  <jtimon> well, certainly it cannot be stable now
 70 2015-11-13T01:17:17  <sipa> ok,
 71 2015-11-13T01:17:35  <sipa> then i think it's a distraction to work on it
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 74 2015-11-13T01:18:27  <jtimon> that's why I closed my only remaining policy-encapsulation PR at least until 0.12
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 76 2015-11-13T01:22:26  <sipa> ok
 77 2015-11-13T01:23:10  <jtimon> but after 0.12 I'm going to try restore some of the policy encapsulation work I continued and improved from luke in my latest abandoned longest branch, maybe it will not have minrelayfee as policy option yet, but isdust and other globals can turn into DefaultPolicy attributes
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183 2015-11-13T03:07:14  <dcousens> Anyone here recommend any libraries to analyze the blockchain?
184 2015-11-13T03:11:09  <dcousens> my fastest parsers still takes ~25s to parse the entire chain atm
185 2015-11-13T03:11:23  <dcousens> mostly IO bound tho :/
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191 2015-11-13T03:25:29  <phantomcircuit> dcousens, 25 seconds to load 50+GB of data is pretttty good
192 2015-11-13T03:26:18  <dcousens> phantomcircuit: I remember reading people were saying they had it under 10s? Was that just on a 2014 chain haha
193 2015-11-13T03:26:29  <phantomcircuit> yes...
194 2015-11-13T03:26:46  <dcousens> Well, I guess I'll leave my 25s alone then :S
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252 2015-11-13T06:09:14  <csoria> hello
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254 2015-11-13T06:15:36  <csoria> got one question about the script, someone can help me out?
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284 2015-11-13T07:48:46  <dcousens> hmph, 7minutes for a UTXO parse and dump, not the worst :D
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374 2015-11-13T10:38:22  <matsjj_> anyone got site for me where I can view the raw transaction in testnet?
375 2015-11-13T10:38:27  <matsjj_> in hex
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381 2015-11-13T10:47:12  <flyingkiwi> matsjj_, https://testnet.manu.backend.hamburg/memorypool ?
382 2015-11-13T10:49:34  <flyingkiwi> matsjj_, and I've found this endpoint: http://tbtc.blockr.io/api/v1/tx/raw/<txid>
383 2015-11-13T10:49:50  <matsjj_> flyingkiwi: the last one looks perfect, thanks!
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432 2015-11-13T12:15:27  <venzen> good to hear
433 2015-11-13T12:15:46  <venzen> please ignore ^, wrong window
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436 2015-11-13T12:27:59  <Yoghur114> @matsjj_ http://srv4.yogh.io/testnet/
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448 2015-11-13T13:23:38  <matsjj_> just tried making a transaction with OP_CSV on the testnet (currently OP_NOP2, 0xB2), but it's not getting mined (without just that, it is working fine) ... Shouldn't it work on testnet?
449 2015-11-13T13:25:42  <matsjj_> It even was in a P2SH redeemscript
450 2015-11-13T13:27:40  <sipa_> matsjj_: assuming testnet miners have bip112 merged
451 2015-11-13T13:27:52  <sipa_> which isn't even merged in master
452 2015-11-13T13:34:41  <matsjj_> sipa_, I'm not asking for a fully functional OP_CSV ;) I just thought that OP_NOP2 should be included (even in mainnet)
453 2015-11-13T13:35:12  <sipa_> matsjj_: no, unused opcodes are one of the few things that are not accepted, even when isstandard checks are disabled
454 2015-11-13T13:35:24  <sipa_> matsjj_: otherwise we'd have forking risks around the time a softfork that includes them activates
455 2015-11-13T13:37:10  <matsjj_> sipa_, thank you for clarifying, makes indeed perfectly sense! Should probably be listed as 'Disabled' in the wiki then?
456 2015-11-13T13:37:48  <sipa_> no, from the consensus rules' point of view they exist
457 2015-11-13T13:38:05  <matsjj_> oh, so miners not including it is just a policy then
458 2015-11-13T13:38:21  <sipa_> yes
459 2015-11-13T13:38:40  <sipa_> if those opcodes were actually invalid to use, a softfork couldn't change their meaning anymore
460 2015-11-13T13:38:49  <matsjj_> riiight, of course
461 2015-11-13T13:39:03  <sipa_> it's a policy that's enabled even on testnet even, one of the few
462 2015-11-13T13:39:35  <matsjj_> Hm. I guess anyone can mine these anyway, but why is it enabled there?
463 2015-11-13T13:40:09  <sipa_> because they're not implemented using the IsStandard logic, but as a script validation flag that's passed down
464 2015-11-13T13:40:17  <sipa_> no real reason why they would be
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466 2015-11-13T13:41:11  <matsjj_> Hm I see... would be handy for testing though
467 2015-11-13T13:42:55  <matsjj_> Is it documented at least somewhere? ;)
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528 2015-11-13T16:23:11  <mr_burdell> I'm getting build errors with v0.11.2 tag: http://pastebin.com/4u9EXVKW
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530 2015-11-13T16:28:28  <wumpus> mr_burdell: clean your tree and re-run autogen.sh and configure
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534 2015-11-13T16:30:10  <mr_burdell> ah, ok... i guess there were left over files that git didn't handle
535 2015-11-13T16:30:17  <mr_burdell> it's building now
536 2015-11-13T16:30:20  <mr_burdell> thanks
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554 2015-11-13T17:05:29  <btcdrak> matsjj_: you can test CSV with sequencenumbers using by combined branch https://github.com/btcdrak/bitcoin/tree/sequenceandcsv
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595 2015-11-13T18:17:11  <nan`> hello. Why does bitcoin need merkle trees? Why could it no just hash all of the transactions for the block?
596 2015-11-13T18:18:07  <sipa> nan`: it allows for very small proofs that a particular transaction is in a block
597 2015-11-13T18:18:11  <wumpus> because merkle trees allow for compact proof that a transaction is in a block, by passing the hashes along the tree path
598 2015-11-13T18:18:53  <nan`> hm. Thank you wumpus, sipa. I will look into that. Any refs for the proof?
599 2015-11-13T18:19:07  <sipa> nan`: any light wallet client :)
600 2015-11-13T18:19:15  <nan`> ok
601 2015-11-13T18:19:16  <sipa> nan`: see BIP37
602 2015-11-13T18:19:42  <sipa> though that's not the simplest form of the proof
603 2015-11-13T18:20:22  <sipa> nor very understandably explained there
604 2015-11-13T18:22:25  <nan`> did it always use merkle trees or were they thought of later
605 2015-11-13T18:22:50  <nan`> their use thought of later, that is
606 2015-11-13T18:23:01  <wumpus> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-guide#term-merkle-tree
607 2015-11-13T18:23:13  <wumpus> it was used in block headers since the beginning
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615 2015-11-13T18:32:59  <jtoomim> sipa what is the current status of libsec256k1? is it still used only for transaction signing?
616 2015-11-13T18:33:37  <sipa> see #6954
617 2015-11-13T18:33:41  <jtoomim> ok
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619 2015-11-13T18:35:58  <petertodd> jtimon: yes, I'll keep publishing a full-RBF w/o opt-in branch (and with preferential peering) until full-RBF w/o opt-in is the default in Bitcoin Core (or you don't need preferential peering to get your full-RBF txs to miners)
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694 2015-11-13T21:08:10  <midnightmagic> sigh. Still failing to match linux gitian sigs.
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697 2015-11-13T21:16:43  <midnightmagic> v0.10.3rc2 ..
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718 2015-11-13T21:52:26  <Kireji> 0.11.2 release, linux 64 bit from https://bitcoin.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.11.2/bitcoin-0.11.2-linux64.tar.gz has a soft link in the root of the tar directory "bitcoin-0.11.2 -> ./bitcoin-0.11.2/"
719 2015-11-13T21:52:47  <Kireji> I think that's a mistake
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744 2015-11-13T22:40:26  <jtoomim> who is running the BIP65/v4 block tests on testnet? I'd like to coordinate our tests with them to avoid stepping on their toes.
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748 2015-11-13T22:48:15  <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: in what sense? stepping on toes seems like a useful test :P
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751 2015-11-13T22:50:23  <Luke-Jr> Kireji: I don't see it
752 2015-11-13T22:50:30  <jtoomim> luke-jr: in the sense that it might result in escalating hashrate
753 2015-11-13T22:50:37  <morcos> jtoomim: i was doing some mining on testnet today with master, but don't feel comfortable leaving my GreenIsMyPepper paper-clip special plugged in over the weekend, so its all you now
754 2015-11-13T22:51:01  <jtoomim> ok
755 2015-11-13T22:51:07  <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: aren't you testing BIP101 anyway? once you get a >1MB block, nothing you do can mess up the main chain
756 2015-11-13T22:51:10  <morcos> i probably wasn't the only one though
757 2015-11-13T22:51:11  <jtoomim> last time i checked, difficulty was kinda high (400k ish)
758 2015-11-13T22:51:17  <jtoomim> should we timewarp and get it down a bit?
759 2015-11-13T22:52:02  <jtoomim> luke-jr yes, but i don't leave it forked all the time
760 2015-11-13T22:52:14  <jtoomim> i want to test borderline hashrate scenarios if i get a chance
761 2015-11-13T22:52:43  <jtoomim> and i also want to bring the v3/v4 chains back up to overtake BIP101 every now and then so we can fork again
762 2015-11-13T22:52:52  <jtoomim> maybe i'm addicted to forks. i should try spoons sometime.
763 2015-11-13T22:53:02  <Luke-Jr> sounds like the escalating hashrate does just that?
764 2015-11-13T22:53:19  <jtoomim> but escalating hashrate costs other people money
765 2015-11-13T22:53:26  <jtoomim> i see no reason to cost money
766 2015-11-13T22:53:48  <jtoomim> chaos is great and all, but chaos on testnet can be free
767 2015-11-13T22:54:16  <Luke-Jr> :p
768 2015-11-13T22:54:42  <Luke-Jr> when it comes to mining, the money they're costed, is money someone else is making ;)
769 2015-11-13T22:55:01  <Luke-Jr> (ok, maybe not if they're using obsolete hardware)
770 2015-11-13T22:55:14  <jtoomim> i'm a bit of a newbie with timewarping, though. i just realized it could be done a few days ago (is there any documentation of it?) and i'm not sure i understand everything correctly
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772 2015-11-13T22:55:31  <jtoomim> so you go forward 20 minutes, go forward 20 minutes again, then go back and forward 20 minutes indefinitely, right?
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775 2015-11-13T22:55:51  <jtoomim> and the difficulty is recalculated based on the work done, which will be low with diff 1 blocks?
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788 2015-11-13T23:12:47  <jtoomim> oh, it looks like we just forked
789 2015-11-13T23:13:05  <jtoomim> i wasn't paying enough attention
790 2015-11-13T23:13:05  <jtoomim> http://ml.toom.im/
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800 2015-11-13T23:30:56  <jtoomim> and our blocks got orphaned, as we don't have enough hashrate
801 2015-11-13T23:31:16  <jtoomim> i guess this is the borderline hashrate scenario already
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