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 106 2015-11-14T03:13:05  <kanzure> jgarzik: it seems that if we are not quick enough to reject an email from someone, the next time they send an email the moderation action applies to both emails at the same time...
 107 2015-11-14T03:13:18  <jgarzik> odd
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 131 2015-11-14T04:11:55  <jcorgan> i think if you click on the numbered link you can apply mod actions individually
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 133 2015-11-14T04:19:43  <kanzure> oh okay. also, i thought i was in the other channel when i said that- oops.
 134 2015-11-14T04:19:50  <kanzure> (namely, #bitcoin)
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 327 2015-11-14T06:26:19  <BlueMatt> jtoomim: "putting validating nodes between spv miners and spv clients" <--- you seem to be suffering from some misunderstanding of security model here
 328 2015-11-14T06:26:40  <BlueMatt> this introduces explicit trust on the part of spv clients to the specific, random, often malicious node they're connected to
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 330 2015-11-14T06:27:07  <BlueMatt> sure, if its a node you do actually trust (ie many large merchants operate this way - bitcoin core nodes on the network and their own spv infrastructure that connects only to their own bitcoin core instances) fine
 331 2015-11-14T06:27:15  <BlueMatt> but this is almost never the case for the average spv client
 332 2015-11-14T06:27:32  <BlueMatt> and you do NOT want to have to trust the first node you happen to connect to on the network or Bad Things Happen (TM)
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 443 2015-11-14T08:13:21  <b-itcoinssg> can anyone point me a utxo set parser? preferably in nodejs, but C++ is ok too.
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 449 2015-11-14T08:40:17  <Luke-Jr> b-itcoinssg: that.. doesn't really make any sense
 450 2015-11-14T08:40:31  <Luke-Jr> the UTXO set doesn't have a well-defined format (yet)
 451 2015-11-14T08:41:16  <b-itcoinssg> K
 452 2015-11-14T08:41:18  <wumpus> right - the format of the UTXO set at this point doesn't matter because blocks don't commit to it
 453 2015-11-14T08:41:45  <wumpus> implementations can use any storage format this is efficient for them
 454 2015-11-14T08:42:14  <wumpus> s/this/that
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 457 2015-11-14T08:46:58  <b-itcoinssg> thanks, since I have your attention, I had a question about merkle tree construction, I am wondering why old leafed tree is resolved by duplicating it rather than treating it as a separate branch
 458 2015-11-14T08:47:09  <b-itcoinssg> here is a link to an example https://github.com/chainpoint/chainpoint/issues/8#issuecomment-136762999
 459 2015-11-14T08:48:09  <Luke-Jr> b-itcoinssg: because Satoshi didn't design his merkle trees very well; it's a defect we maintain only because changing the protocol is difficult
 460 2015-11-14T08:48:26  <b-itcoinssg> ok
 461 2015-11-14T08:48:39  <gmaxwell> making it different in size makes the computation irregular, e.g. harder to vectorize.  Though that it also doesn't commit to the member count is unfortunate and results in a second preimage.
 462 2015-11-14T08:49:18  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: well, you could always pad with zeros too
 463 2015-11-14T08:51:01  <wumpus> ah yes, he should have added a distinguisher between leaf nodes and intermediate nodes
 464 2015-11-14T08:51:43  <wumpus> do not learn merkle trees from satoshi's implementation - we have an explicit comment about that at the appropriate place in the source code :)
 465 2015-11-14T08:51:47  <Luke-Jr> that too, but it wouldn't fix the problems with duplicating the hash I think
 466 2015-11-14T08:52:54  <wumpus> it would IIRC.. intermediate node: <00> <hash1> <hash2>  leaf node: <01> <datahash>   .. no longer possible to swap them
 467 2015-11-14T08:52:56  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: if there was a tag to code interior vs leaf it could also code the number of children, and then it doesn't matter if you copy or use zeros.
 468 2015-11-14T08:52:59  <wumpus> or maybe you're talking about a differnet issue
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 470 2015-11-14T08:53:22  <gmaxwell> wumpus: there are two different second preimage problems. He's referring to the other one.
 471 2015-11-14T08:54:47  <wumpus> okay
 472 2015-11-14T08:55:11  <Luke-Jr> speaking of which, did we decide to do anything about the more recently discovered one?
 473 2015-11-14T08:55:35  <Luke-Jr> I forget :/
 474 2015-11-14T08:56:38  <gmaxwell> I wrote a patch but was waiting for figures on the simulation.
 475 2015-11-14T08:56:48  <gmaxwell> fell off my radar, pushing it back on.
 476 2015-11-14T08:57:50  *** roxtrongo has quit IRC
 477 2015-11-14T08:59:59  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: IIRC we concluded that it was very difficult and had not already occurred accidentally
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 482 2015-11-14T09:03:29  <b-itcoinssg> n'way, thanks guys, super helpful as usual, Luke-Jr & Gmaxwell: are you guys on twitter?
 483 2015-11-14T09:04:17  * Luke-Jr hates Twitter.
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 485 2015-11-14T09:05:03  <b-itcoinssg> hehe
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 491 2015-11-14T09:07:57  <wumpus> ideally there would be some document or book we can refer people to that want to learn merkle trees the right way
 492 2015-11-14T09:08:12  <wumpus> it's a pretty common question
 493 2015-11-14T09:08:23  <gmaxwell> I refer people to the certificate transparncy RFC.
 494 2015-11-14T09:08:50  <Luke-Jr> someone could write up a merkletree hardfork BIP that never leaves Draft status :P
 495 2015-11-14T09:09:05  <Luke-Jr> (a wiki article may be a better option)
 496 2015-11-14T09:11:13  <wumpus> bleh, the wikipedia article (not very useful in itself for an introduction) has a patent as reference :s
 497 2015-11-14T09:11:38  * wumpus refuses to even look at it
 498 2015-11-14T09:11:41  <Luke-Jr> I meant Bitcoin Wiki :p
 499 2015-11-14T09:12:14  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it's the best kind of patent: an expired one.
 500 2015-11-14T09:12:31  <gmaxwell> (one filed a few days before I was born...)
 501 2015-11-14T09:12:48  <Luke-Jr> lol
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 513 2015-11-14T09:41:16  <wumpus> hah! that's good to hear
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 524 2015-11-14T10:04:27  <jtoomim> BlueMatt: in theory, it takes only one validation from a trusted party for the probability of an invalid block to be zero. In practice, "trust" is a context-dependent metric that varies between 0 and 1 that reflects the probability that one party is trying to screw the other party over.
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 526 2015-11-14T10:05:01  <jtoomim> "trust" increases in contexts in which it is difficult to steal without getting caught
 527 2015-11-14T10:05:44  <jtoomim> if you completely trust a node, then you could take what it says about block validity to be true without further questioning, but that is rarely the case and not the scenario we should be planning for
 528 2015-11-14T10:06:27  <jtoomim> however, we may be able to set up the network in such a way that it is difficult for a node to deceive without getting caught
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 530 2015-11-14T10:07:26  <jtoomim> one way is to have each spv node communicate with multiple full nodes and to cross-reference their responses
 531 2015-11-14T10:08:02  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: we have a mechrnism for that, thats what the proof of work in bitcoin solves; iff participants are validating. (/ you wait for several confirmations instead of just a few)
 532 2015-11-14T10:08:06  <jtoomim> another way to build trust is to ask a bunch of innocuous questions mixed in with a few questions that matter
 533 2015-11-14T10:08:49  <jtoomim> how do you prove that the participants are validating?
 534 2015-11-14T10:08:52  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: there is no way to know you're even talking to seperate nodes, eclipse attacks are very easy in p2p networks in general; and software that has done a lot more to stop them than bitcoin are still fairly easily exploited. :(
 535 2015-11-14T10:08:58  <jtoomim> there is only the assumption there that they are
 536 2015-11-14T10:09:12  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: it's a security assumption of the bitcoin system.
 537 2015-11-14T10:09:34  <jtoomim> is it actually defended by anything?
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 539 2015-11-14T10:10:17  <jtoomim> what's to stop an attacker from participating in the SPV mining network by posing as a medium-small miner, grabbing invalid blocks when they happen, and using them for their own benefit?
 540 2015-11-14T10:10:19  <gmaxwell> No, it's an assumption; like the other things in level 0 bitcoin assumptions, there is an "economic incentives" argument, but they're not especially strong.
 541 2015-11-14T10:11:11  <jtoomim> if we permit relay of unverified blocks, we make it a little easier to get invalid blocks with valid PoW for attacks like these, but practically not too much easier
 542 2015-11-14T10:11:19  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: bitcoin.pdf assumes no such thing exists as a "spv mining network", because it assumes that the cost of validating is negligible.
 543 2015-11-14T10:11:22  <jtoomim> it's not really much different from connecting to matt's relay network
 544 2015-11-14T10:12:00  <jtoomim> in practice, the cost of validation is small, but not quite negligible
 545 2015-11-14T10:12:00  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I know, I pointed that out. :) the verificationless mining is it's own problem; I don't think it's a reason to not agressively forward.
 546 2015-11-14T10:12:42  <jtoomim> so my opinion is that we should stop fighting it and try to figure out how to do it as safely as possible
 547 2015-11-14T10:12:47  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: there are many complications, including the presence of dumb issues and "unknown sources of delay"; and mining with verification is the most expident, fully general "solution" to a hundred different potential sources of delay.
 548 2015-11-14T10:13:10  <gmaxwell> And it's one that you can deploy with only a very limited understanding of the bitcoin system (it's actually easier the less you know)
 549 2015-11-14T10:14:02  <jtoomim> (p.s. i had a bit of ethanol earlier, so i'm not as sharp as i could be, sorry)
 550 2015-11-14T10:14:47  <jtoomim> sorry, i'm not sure i know what kind of delay you're talking about
 551 2015-11-14T10:14:59  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: Making it safe requires no SPV users accepting small numbers of confirmations. Attempting to magically solve the sybil problems "somehow" is to discard decades of failed attempts to invent p2p ecash, which absent the POW solution were all failures. :)
 552 2015-11-14T10:15:01  <jtoomim> do you mean propagation delay, or delay in the certainty of a transaction confirmation?
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 554 2015-11-14T10:16:15  <jtoomim> i don't see SPV transactions as needing to be 100% safe in order to be useful
 555 2015-11-14T10:16:28  <jtoomim> I see there being a different level of acceptable risk for different types of transactions
 556 2015-11-14T10:16:32  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I mean anything that would result in you getting orphaned. There are MANY places in the pipeline from network to mining chip and back again that can add delays. And mining off other pools' stratum fragments or headers is a 50 line of code bypass for 3/4th of them that doesn't require you to understand or optimize much of anything.
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 560 2015-11-14T10:17:08  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I never said that, but that kind of probablistic reasoning doesn't work too usefully against intentional attacks, at least much less than it does for random failures.
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 567 2015-11-14T10:17:22  <jtoomim> speaking from a business perspective, that is. a merchant can look at their losses due to attacks, and choose the level of verification that causes the amount of inconvenience ot their customers (and consequently lost revenues) that does not exceed their fraud expoure
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 571 2015-11-14T10:17:40  <jtoomim> in terms of the game theory, it's a multi-round game
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 573 2015-11-14T10:17:56  <jtoomim> letting the attackers win gives them an incentive to try again
 574 2015-11-14T10:18:03  <gmaxwell> Say your webpage has a billion pixels on it, but due to a bug 1 pixel sends 0.01 BTC from your wallet to the clicker.  Now, 1 in a billion, that sounds like pretty good odds in your favor. And perhaps for six months you'll be fine, but then someone finds the pixel and you're bankrupt in an hour.
 575 2015-11-14T10:18:06  *** splix has quit IRC
 576 2015-11-14T10:18:18  <jtoomim> but it also gives the defenders a chance to change their security policies to adapt to the environment
 577 2015-11-14T10:18:25  *** splix has joined #bitcoin-dev
 578 2015-11-14T10:18:27  <jtoomim> sorta like a market for inconvenience
 579 2015-11-14T10:18:40  <gmaxwell> Attackers are adaptive, they are not random. And as a result security percentages have a nasty habbit of being very two sided.. 100% or 0%, especially when the attacker has many degress of freedom.
 580 2015-11-14T10:18:41  <jtoomim> hopefully, lightning will solve the problem completely
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 583 2015-11-14T10:19:21  <jtoomim> but... eh, i should stop rambling
 584 2015-11-14T10:19:24  <jtoomim> too much ethanol
 585 2015-11-14T10:19:31  <jtoomim> sorry, i should have just gone to sleep instead of wasting your time
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 587 2015-11-14T10:19:42  <gmaxwell> I know of bitcoin merchants that had adopted the "I don't need 100%" and had a pile of hurestics and API calls that they used to protect themselves from zero conf attacks... and then came home one night after dinner and found themselves $100k poorer. :(
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 594 2015-11-14T10:20:12  <jtoomim> definitely, merchants of digital goods should be very wary of 0-conf
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 596 2015-11-14T10:20:13  <gmaxwell> So, yea, sometimes you can skirt the middle ground effectively; but its quite a gamble, if you estimate wrong the consequences could be big. :-/
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 656 2015-11-14T10:21:37  <gmaxwell> And for people working on the software, we don't know how everyone will use it-- worse, we know the users can't be expected to full understand it (esp since we don't) ... and we have to resist moral hazards around optimizations that dump risk on the people who may be least equipt to deal with them. No magic solutions.
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 665 2015-11-14T10:23:36  <jtoomim> so the specific concern that we're worried about here with unverified forwarding is that an invalid block will be produced by a mistake, and then forwarded to an attacker who is just waiting for such a block, and has an attack already laid out that uses that block, yes?
 666 2015-11-14T10:23:56  <jtoomim> so perhaps they've set a trap
 667 2015-11-14T10:24:08  <jtoomim> they try to continuously double-spend transactions
 668 2015-11-14T10:24:20  <jtoomim> by sending one transaction to one miner, and a conflicting transaction to another miner
 669 2015-11-14T10:24:21  <gmaxwell> I'm not concerned about unverified forwarding, it has to be tagged, but thats no big deal.
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 672 2015-11-14T10:24:58  <jtoomim> waiting for one to mine one in an invalid block, which they then hear and report incorrectly to a valid block to an SPV wallet in order to doublespend against that wallet?
 673 2015-11-14T10:25:48  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: though, no the invalid block attack pattern is that you rent a modest amount of hashpower, and after some number of days you use it to mine a single block that spends 21 million bitcoins you don't have to _every_ bitcoin service that accepts 1/2/3 conf and will let you round trip the funds right out.
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 676 2015-11-14T10:26:24  <gmaxwell> Since you're making an invalid block you have no limit to the number of coins you spend, so just use infinity coins and attack as many things as you can fit outputs in the block.
 677 2015-11-14T10:26:29  <jtoomim> the issue i see about unverified block forwarding is that it makes it easy to falsely pass it off as a verified block to an unwitting SPV wallet. I don't see it as a big issue. I don't currently see any other issues.
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 679 2015-11-14T10:27:20  <gmaxwell> Now, maybe no one extends your block and you are successful only with the 1 conf things,  though due to verification free mining you have not terrible odds at also picking up 2 and 3, even if non-verifying miners have 30 second timeouts.
 680 2015-11-14T10:27:25  <jtoomim> gmaxwell unverified block forwarding doesn't help the sacrificing-PoW-for-attack-tx attack any as far as i can see
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 685 2015-11-14T10:29:00  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I've told you like a bazillion times that I don't think it matters here.  Matt mostly doesn't like it because verification is something like 1% of the total delay budget, so spending time on that seems like a waste to him, esp since maybe it makes verificationless mining more dangerous. (the latter point, I meh at)
 686 2015-11-14T10:29:34  <jtoomim> eh, my data so far aren't very good, but it sorta looks like verification is more than 1%
 687 2015-11-14T10:29:48  <jtoomim> i should have better data by december 7th though
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 689 2015-11-14T10:30:13  <gmaxwell> I'm only continuing to talk about the verificationless mining because you keep suggesting that it can be made safe, and I think (and simulation results suggest) that the strategies for making it "safe" don't really.
 690 2015-11-14T10:30:19  <jtoomim> also, verification serializes network transmission, which is a bigger deal
 691 2015-11-14T10:30:31  <jtoomim> you can't upload anything of a block until you've downloaded the whole thing and verified it
 692 2015-11-14T10:30:54  <jtoomim> if you abandon the verification, then you can upload the first packet as soon as you've downloaded the first packet
 693 2015-11-14T10:30:54  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: if you're talking about your testing, the testnet setup you have is quite unrepresentative.
 694 2015-11-14T10:31:07  <jtoomim> that makes the time constant on the exponential growth function much much smaller
 695 2015-11-14T10:31:29  <gmaxwell> No you can't. if you forward without at least checking POW then anyone can knock the network to its kneeds trivially by just sending noise.
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 697 2015-11-14T10:31:46  <jtoomim> gmaxwell of course it is, but it may still be informative, and it's not entirely clear in which way it's unrepresentative
 698 2015-11-14T10:32:04  <jtoomim> no relay network, lots of misconfigured machines, fewer low-bandwidth machines
 699 2015-11-14T10:32:31  <jtoomim> and the big kicker is that with the testnet we have a lot of peers that refuse to forward blocks because they think that >1MB is invalid
 700 2015-11-14T10:32:53  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: Not clear to you, but that just means its more misleading.  The main reasons its not represenative is signature caching, and no one on testnet is running the relay network protocol.
 701 2015-11-14T10:32:59  <jtoomim> but we can still collect the time between getdata complete and updatetip complete
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 703 2015-11-14T10:34:38  <gmaxwell> The relay network protocol converts most 1MB blocks to just a hand full of kilobytes.  (http://bitcoinrelaynetwork.org/stats.html second graph, log scale)
 704 2015-11-14T10:34:52  <jtoomim> yes, i've looked at that
 705 2015-11-14T10:35:13  <jtoomim> except it looks like matt updated the stats
 706 2015-11-14T10:35:20  <jtoomim> last time i looked, the top graphs were unreadably noisy
 707 2015-11-14T10:35:47  <gmaxwell> it just had lots of data, he purged old data after a protocol update which mostly fixed the spam attacks knocking down the hitrate.
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 709 2015-11-14T10:36:00  <gmaxwell> (you can download the raw data)
 710 2015-11-14T10:36:24  <jtoomim> the relay network doesn't work with noncooperative miners who keep transactions secret, so this testing will be slightly more informative on adversarial conditions than cooperative conditions
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 712 2015-11-14T10:37:17  <gmaxwell> well not actually adversarial though, it's testnet after all. :) Actually adversarial conditions involve sending transactions fast where you want them fast; and slow or not at all otherwise. :)
 713 2015-11-14T10:37:27  <gmaxwell> But sure, I don't think it's worthless.
 714 2015-11-14T10:38:03  <jtoomim> well, pure selfish mining is a different thing
 715 2015-11-14T10:38:16  <gmaxwell> Sorry, I'm a little jaded that for three years academic papers have been using numbers about bitcoin network transmission speed from a paper by cdecker that was horribly outdated when he published it and quite litterally 100x slower than the current software. :)
 716 2015-11-14T10:38:24  <jtoomim> volume-enhanced selfish mining is another
 717 2015-11-14T10:38:39  <gmaxwell> There are many more things than "selfish mining" in the world. :)
 718 2015-11-14T10:38:47  <jtoomim> yeah
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 720 2015-11-14T10:39:00  <jtoomim> hey, did you read the blocktorrent proposal i posted on the list about a month ago?
 721 2015-11-14T10:39:29  <jtoomim> oh btw, i have not yet seen any evidence of slow-start-like behavior on our tcp connections
 722 2015-11-14T10:39:37  <gmaxwell> I did, there was an older proposal like it. That approach has a lot of overhead.
 723 2015-11-14T10:39:45  <jtoomim> doesn't mean it isn't there, as my temporal resolution was poor
 724 2015-11-14T10:40:28  <jtoomim> and the combination with weak blocks?
 725 2015-11-14T10:40:57  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: then you must not have any non-low-latency links?  Matt's says he's lucky to get 2mbit for actual timings to a single peer on relay network hub numbers.
 726 2015-11-14T10:41:02  <jtoomim> encoding a block as a set of merkle nodes of various levels, possibly with a few insertions and deletions, could be done in advance by the miner
 727 2015-11-14T10:41:30  <jtoomim> well matt is sending small messages
 728 2015-11-14T10:41:47  <jtoomim> where latency is the most important part of total transit time
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 730 2015-11-14T10:42:07  <jtoomim> total transit = base latency + size/bandwidth, first order approximation
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 732 2015-11-14T10:42:31  <jtoomim> we've got a lot of VPSs in our mix, which means very high bandwidth
 733 2015-11-14T10:42:38  <jtoomim> 100 Mbps to 1 Gbps
 734 2015-11-14T10:42:54  <jtoomim> so does matt
 735 2015-11-14T10:43:19  <jtoomim> so the 70-150 ms base latency is the main determinant for him, and a moderate factor for us
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 737 2015-11-14T10:43:46  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I didn't see you had a combination of weak blocks.  But in any case, normally 95%+ of the data is already transmitted. sending all that data again, and then O(N) more data for hash tree fragments, is a losing proposition.
 738 2015-11-14T10:45:06  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I don't think thats the right way of thinking about that, fairness in the network falls off rapidly with increased delays; yes, a larger amount transmitted gets proportionally less hit from ramping effects, but thats because its taking enormously longer.
 739 2015-11-14T10:45:49  <jtoomim> O(N) more data for hash tree fragments? I don't see that as being true
 740 2015-11-14T10:46:16  <jtoomim> probably sqrt(n)
 741 2015-11-14T10:46:43  <jtoomim> or n/16, perhaps
 742 2015-11-14T10:47:00  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: the total interior nodes in a hashtree is equal to the size of the tree.  There is just a constant factor in there because transactions are variable sizes. :)
 743 2015-11-14T10:47:15  <gmaxwell> Yea, sure, a constant.
 744 2015-11-14T10:47:20  <jtoomim> you can compute the interior nodes from the leaves
 745 2015-11-14T10:47:30  <jtoomim> you can choose which layers of the tree to transmit based on the total size of the block
 746 2015-11-14T10:47:49  <jtoomim> or based on what layers you have seen recently in other miners' weak blocks
 747 2015-11-14T10:48:21  <gmaxwell> Yes, and then you get a constant reduction based on how large your groups are.
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 749 2015-11-14T10:48:55  <jtoomim> and if you have that group in the cache already, then you can avoid downloading those hashes and those transactions
 750 2015-11-14T10:49:29  <jtoomim> or if the sender knows what merkle nodes you have, then they can encode the actual merkle nodes using those nodes plus a diff
 751 2015-11-14T10:50:06  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: ugh. then doing that you get weird edge effects where you can only copy in dyadic chunks. This would require very constrained block construction to get any sharing at all
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 753 2015-11-14T10:50:34  <jtoomim> not necessarily
 754 2015-11-14T10:50:38  <jtoomim> i was worried about that too
 755 2015-11-14T10:50:54  <jtoomim> but you can encode the block as a list of merkle nodes of different levels
 756 2015-11-14T10:50:59  <gmaxwell> This is needlessly complex, it's quite possible to efficiently use already known knoweldge without any constraints on block construction.
 757 2015-11-14T10:51:13  <jtoomim> and just reconstruct the base list, and then go back to the actual merkel tree for the block
 758 2015-11-14T10:51:38  <jtoomim> basically you can just use merkle nodes as a dictionary of transactions
 759 2015-11-14T10:52:03  <jtoomim> you lose the nice property of being able to identify that a hash is part of the root in some ways, but we don't need that
 760 2015-11-14T10:52:23  <jtoomim> mostly what we're doing is just using the merkle hashes as a ready handle for a bundle of txs
 761 2015-11-14T10:52:55  <jtoomim> kind of like a dictionary based compression algorithm
 762 2015-11-14T10:53:04  <gmaxwell> Looking up your post, you said that the IBLT stuff requires strict ordering; that isn't so-- though I can see why thinking that would send you down the hashtree parcel path.  Thats what gavin wrote up, and it simplifies things; but it's not something that was part of my earlier designs in this space. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/block_network_coding
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 764 2015-11-14T10:55:10  <gmaxwell> in any case, the point I was making about your dictionary is that unless the block is constructed in a very predictable ordering, you need an exponentially sized dictionary to map out all the possible ways of mixing and matching.
 765 2015-11-14T10:55:37  <gmaxwell> even if you don't even try to prove membership under a block header anymore.
 766 2015-11-14T10:55:48  <jtoomim> yes, you don't want to encode every possible arrangement
 767 2015-11-14T10:57:25  <jtoomim> it's meant to be an approach that works quite well with typical blocks, and devloves to being a little worse than an approach that just sends the block as a bunch of raw bytes in adversarial conditions with 0% cache hit rates
 768 2015-11-14T10:58:10  <jtoomim> except that it allows for better distribution of bandwidth among peers
 769 2015-11-14T10:59:40  <jtoomim> yeah, i'm not sure how important proving membership is before download has been initiated if the encoding hits the recipient's cache
 770 2015-11-14T11:00:03  <gmaxwell> The consequence of not proving membership means you cannot relay until you have all the data.
 771 2015-11-14T11:00:41  <gmaxwell> (else someone tells they have a 'block' and feed you megabytes of linenoise which the whole network spams itself with)
 772 2015-11-14T11:00:45  <jtoomim> you can either miss the cache with a provable encoding, or you can more often hit the cache using an encoding that can only be proven after the cache hit (and maybe a few adjacent ones) has been made
 773 2015-11-14T11:01:38  <jtoomim> you don't need all of the data, just a section that has mod 2^n borders
 774 2015-11-14T11:02:11  <gmaxwell> and then the overhead of the membership proofs for that part.
 775 2015-11-14T11:02:12  <jtoomim> so you can authoritatively forward subsets of what you have downloaded. complicated
 776 2015-11-14T11:02:20  <gmaxwell> Yea.
 777 2015-11-14T11:03:23  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: though there are I think much simpler and more effective schemes for typical blocks; e.g. remember the last N txids you communicated with a peer, then send the difference in the feerate sorted ID list and any missing transactions. This is what the relay network protocol does, though it doesn't even bother with the differential encoding of the indexes, because they're so small.
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 779 2015-11-14T11:03:35  <jtoomim> maybe just sending the block with the most efficient coding and banning peers that send invalid block encodings will likely be sufficient
 780 2015-11-14T11:03:46  <jtoomim> or maybe sending encodings for a provable node
 781 2015-11-14T11:04:04  <jtoomim> and allowing a little bit of overlap
 782 2015-11-14T11:04:14  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: banning is fine, but you cannot couple banning with blind forwarding. (else someone sends in junk then the whole network bans each other. :) )
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 784 2015-11-14T11:05:27  <gmaxwell> And also as I mentioned IBLT doesn't need fixed ordering. It's just if you imagine the ordering is fixed you don't have to communicate the ordering. But if the ordering is pretty predictable (as you assume) then sending the ordering doesn't take much space.
 785 2015-11-14T11:05:38  <jtoomim> yes, i get that
 786 2015-11-14T11:05:49  <jtoomim> well, i get that now
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 788 2015-11-14T11:06:51  <gmaxwell> After the iblt process you have the set of txn but don't know what order, you could feerate order them, then send the set of edits from that. :)  the worst case size is log2(n!) but anything that would have a hope of working with your hashing grouping would be pretty small with a simple run-length encoded edit list.
 789 2015-11-14T11:06:58  <jtoomim> i think there are a lot of optimizations that could be done with the blocktorrent method to compress the data
 790 2015-11-14T11:07:24  <jtoomim> but without them, i think it would use resources a lot more effectively than what we have now, and would not be much more complicated
 791 2015-11-14T11:07:56  <jtoomim> the optimizations are what add the most complexity
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 794 2015-11-14T11:08:44  <gmaxwell> Well if you think it wouldn't be complicated I'd suggest implementing it.  The relay network protocol sounds much simpler than what you suggest, and yet it gets most of the gains of fancier schemes; so I can't argue your point that simple schemes can be much better than the dumbest possible thing (the bitcoin p2p handling of blocks)
 795 2015-11-14T11:09:01  <gmaxwell> (er I can't argue with)
 796 2015-11-14T11:09:39  <jtoomim> it can be implemented as a recursive algorithm fairly easily with a minimal number of p2p messages added or extended
 797 2015-11-14T11:09:59  <jtoomim> i'd like to implement it. time is a finite resource.
 798 2015-11-14T11:10:07  <gmaxwell> but if simple is the goal, the block relay protocol basically ticks that box. Hard to be simpler.  If the goal is to be nearly as efficient as possible; the coding-theory based schemes are asymtopically optimal.
 799 2015-11-14T11:11:18  <gmaxwell> maybe the middle is also useful, dunno. I'm doubtful anyone will implement it if you won't: Most people don't actually care about working on any of this, when it comes down to actually doing it.  Alas. :)
 800 2015-11-14T11:11:39  <jtoomim> the goal is to be computationally simple while making good use of bandwidth and engaging a large number of nodes' bandwidth quickly
 801 2015-11-14T11:12:10  <jtoomim> to reduce the time needed to get everybody a copy of the block to be close to the time needed to get one person a copy of the block
 802 2015-11-14T11:12:41  <jtoomim> to be nearly O(1) on the number of network nodes
 803 2015-11-14T11:12:52  <gmaxwell> well on the en.bitcoin.it page above I give a scheme which basically does that network wide while using most of the available cross-sectional bandwidth.
 804 2015-11-14T11:12:58  <gmaxwell> I turns out to end up cpu limited. :(
 805 2015-11-14T11:13:03  <gmaxwell> er s/I/it/
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 807 2015-11-14T11:18:51  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: your scheme with your optimizations and relaxiations starts reminding me of spinal codes, btw. http://nms.csail.mit.edu/spinal/
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 906 2015-11-14T16:16:13  <jtoomim> is there a way to set multiple debug= settings at the same time without doing all of them (e.g. net and bench)?
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 909 2015-11-14T16:18:42  <sipa_> yes
 910 2015-11-14T16:18:52  <sipa_> -debug=x -debug=y
 911 2015-11-14T16:19:40  <jtoomim> and that works in bitcoin.conf too?
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 919 2015-11-14T16:30:30  <sipa_> jtoomim: yes
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 921 2015-11-14T16:30:49  <jtoomim> great, thanks sipa
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 949 2015-11-14T17:47:20  <fredrin> wow, many people, such silence.
 950 2015-11-14T17:48:27  <sipa> such idle
 951 2015-11-14T17:50:10  <fredrin> true
 952 2015-11-14T17:50:25  <fredrin> what are people doing on a saturday?
 953 2015-11-14T17:50:39  <fredrin> Whatching terra news
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 956 2015-11-14T17:58:02  <andre_pt> hy, i m from portugal
 957 2015-11-14T17:58:35  <andre_pt> where can i found more info and inscription?
 958 2015-11-14T17:59:35  <andre_pt> i would like to work with translations and any kund of back office
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 960 2015-11-14T18:02:41  <fredrin> aaaaand he's gone
 961 2015-11-14T18:02:54  <jl2012> hi sipa, would you like to fix OP_IF/NOTIF malleability as part of BIP62, or let it be a seperate BIP?
 962 2015-11-14T18:02:58  <jl2012> https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/master/opifmalleability.mediawiki
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 964 2015-11-14T18:07:24  <sipa> jl2012: i personally plan on retiring bip62, and work on more inclusive solutions like normalized txids or segregated witness instead
 965 2015-11-14T18:07:48  <sipa> bip62 is a rathole... adding new types of transaction may always require more rules
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 972 2015-11-14T18:17:47  <jl2012> sipa: it makes sense
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 976 2015-11-14T18:32:17  <mbruder> http://btcforparis.blogspot.gr/
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 982 2015-11-14T18:34:52  <jcorgan> i think it's about that time we try to populate bitcoin-discuss and shift the macro-goals and blocksize from -dev to -discuss
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1053 2015-11-14T21:32:14  <jcorgan> or not, it seems
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1098 2015-11-14T23:10:10  <nan`> anyone here do ethereum dev? #ethereum-dev is always dead
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1114 2015-11-14T23:27:16  <midnightmagic> Hrm..
1115 2015-11-14T23:28:21  <midnightmagic> It looks like I get the same gitian sigs as 0.10.3 when I build 0.10.3rc2.
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