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  23 2015-11-16T00:30:06  <coin> hello
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  32 2015-11-16T00:35:46  <coin> hey
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  41 2015-11-16T00:47:47  <btcdrak> hello coin:
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  63 2015-11-16T01:21:39  <rusty> jgarzik: I'm setting the mod bit on everyone posting on the Peter-R thread, and composing a mail about it and suggesting bitcoin-discuss.  Any objections?
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  65 2015-11-16T01:21:48  <jgarzik> ack
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  69 2015-11-16T01:26:07  <kanzure> rusty: jcorgan and btcdrak and i were thinking to also set moderation bit on /everyone/
  70 2015-11-16T01:26:22  <kanzure> but perhaps that's for another a different trial period
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  75 2015-11-16T01:29:53  <Luke-Jr> I wonder if the ideal solution consists of having each subscriber choose to receive moderated or unmoderated mail, and having a large set of approvers
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  86 2015-11-16T01:35:04  <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: we just need to stop being weak about it. Ban troublemakers and be done with it.
  87 2015-11-16T01:35:17  <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
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 155 2015-11-16T02:43:37  <dgenr8> btcdrak: i haven't posted anything since moderation.  nobody likes to waste time writing something that might be thrown away.
 156 2015-11-16T02:51:52  <rusty> dgenr8: if only everyone was so worried about wasting time!
 157 2015-11-16T03:00:58  <dgenr8> rusty: may I recommend /dev/null, it's a quick read
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 162 2015-11-16T03:07:02  <Luke-Jr> dgenr8: thank you for not writing garbage that is questionable enough to be moderated out
 163 2015-11-16T03:07:35  <Luke-Jr> sorry, I should have said that on #bitcoin
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 175 2015-11-16T03:44:33  <nan`> MyContract.new({from: primaryAccount, data: contract.code}, function(error, contract){
 176 2015-11-16T03:44:37  <nan`> ewps
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 353 2015-11-16T08:59:37  <cubicearth> I have a couple questions about accidental forks.  Is anyone here?
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 357 2015-11-16T09:01:23  <jonasschnelli> cubicearth: Sure. Try to ask your question.
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 359 2015-11-16T09:05:10  <cubicearth> I'll start off broadly:  Is the main risk that half the miners would build on one chain and half one the other?  A 50/50 split, or close to it?  If a 10% miner had buggy code and mined a block that the other 90% saw as invalid, there would be a 10% chain and a 90% chain?  Is that correct?  Wouldn't the impact mostly be limited to the 10% miner, who would go on mining their own branch?
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 364 2015-11-16T09:12:26  <cubicearth> If there were 5 different implementations of the protocol, each with roughly 20% of the hash power, it seems like unintentional forks would be more common, but the impact or them wouldn't be too severe.  Is that a sound understanding, or am I missing something?
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 367 2015-11-16T09:18:00  <gmaxwell> The main impact in your first case is lite wallets especially users that accept at under ten confirmations.
 368 2015-11-16T09:18:30  <gmaxwell> Miners will just lose a bit of income that they might not have had anyways, users that get false confirmations have potentially unbounded losses.
 369 2015-11-16T09:18:51  <gmaxwell> For your seperate question, different implementations usually have faults in common.
 370 2015-11-16T09:20:05  <gmaxwell> E.g. BIP66 covered up incompatibility in btcd that was the same as one in bitcoin-ruby and (I think) libbitcoin.
 371 2015-11-16T09:20:30  <gmaxwell> When there are multiple issues an attacker can craft the triggers to carve up the network in complex ways, e.g. arranging groups of forks.
 372 2015-11-16T09:21:05  <gmaxwell> One fun trick is to fork a merchants implementation and just a single miner. Then that miner will mine blocks, and the merchant will accept them, and both will ignore the rest of the network.
 373 2015-11-16T09:21:41  <gmaxwell> (e.g. that miner effectively becomes your captive tool to mine an alternative reality for your particular victims)
 374 2015-11-16T09:24:30  <cubicearth> Okay, that makes sense, but it would be pretty easy to detect just on the basis of slower blocks.  And - please don't mistake this as advocacy for more rapid blocks - but the faster the block interval, the sooner statistically significant evidence of reduced hash power should be available? Yes?
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 376 2015-11-16T09:25:41  <gmaxwell> even with a much faster interval like 2 minutes reliably detecting that the hashrate is only 10% takes a long time, e.g. many hours. And faster block intervals greatly exacerbate mining unfairness and such, so they're not a free parameter.
 377 2015-11-16T09:25:50  *** StormDev has joined #bitcoin-dev
 378 2015-11-16T09:28:23  <gmaxwell> sometimes the network is just unlucky, we go an hour without a block once a week or so... this is necessary for POW consensus to converge (that one fork would get lucky while another gets unlucky is how decisive convergence is eventually possible even though the network is not synchronous)
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 380 2015-11-16T09:29:39  <cubicearth> 2 minutes blocks, 90% reduction in hash power?  I'd guess you'd have a 90% reliability of detection within 20 minutes... but we don't have to guess.  Statistics on poisson distributions are always fun to look at.
 381 2015-11-16T09:29:59  <gmaxwell> and as I mention, in the presence of multiple implementation differences its likely that an attacker can carve the network however he likes, and get 50/50 if he wants it.
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 383 2015-11-16T09:30:18  <gmaxwell> 90% reliablity is crazy, you'd be false positiving all the time.
 384 2015-11-16T09:30:24  <cubicearth> I know faster blocks have many issues, I am just trying to use them as a tool to help understand how forks affect things, and how they can be dealt with.
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 386 2015-11-16T09:31:45  <gmaxwell> in any case, slowdown detection isn't a generalized answer there, owing to the fact that even with many implementations carveouts like 40/60 or what not look like they'd be straight forward. (taking BIP66 as an example).
 387 2015-11-16T09:32:28  <gmaxwell> Also ignoring the idea that network effects result in power law adoptions. I have no clue how you could get uniformity in usage. :(
 388 2015-11-16T09:33:45  <gmaxwell> As a developer going off and working on a new or niche version is requires a huge additional resource investment that isn't easily justified... why reinvent the wheel when you can instead cooperate? except for vanity, and whatnot.
 389 2015-11-16T09:35:08  <cubicearth> I was working on the concept of having bitcoin fail reliably and detectably, so that it wouldn
 390 2015-11-16T09:35:09  <cubicearth> t
 391 2015-11-16T09:35:18  <cubicearth> be such a problem if it did.
 392 2015-11-16T09:35:53  <gmaxwell> Sure, I think ultimately, you'll find this hard because if there was a magical mechnism for that, we could just use it instead of the pow consensus system. :)
 393 2015-11-16T09:36:04  <cubicearth> The other approach is to try to make sure it never does fail.  For the most part, they are mutually compatible.
 394 2015-11-16T09:36:48  <gmaxwell> if they're compatible you're not being creative enough yet. :P
 395 2015-11-16T09:38:05  <gmaxwell> (I mean, its the norm that ideas people have to stop majority hashpower attacks generally open minority hashpower attacks.)
 396 2015-11-16T09:38:44  <cubicearth> The biggest risk with the 50 / 50 split though, is that the miners can't agree on which side should give up and join the others.  That could persist for days... or forever.
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 399 2015-11-16T09:42:35  <gmaxwell> I would worry less about miners than things like "Acidbucks exchange lost 10000 BTC on A and demands B win; NibblePostage lost 10000 BTC on B and demands A win."
 400 2015-11-16T09:43:06  <gmaxwell> if it's just there is two chains, people will work it out; if there are winners and losers ... its another matter.
 401 2015-11-16T09:43:31  <cubicearth> Winners and losers because of the rollback?
 402 2015-11-16T09:43:35  <gmaxwell> and winners and losers can happen fast; so they can arise even if the fork isn't very long lived.
 403 2015-11-16T09:43:39  <gmaxwell> Right.
 404 2015-11-16T09:44:10  <gmaxwell> Basically without consensus bitcoin is (temporarily) not money.
 405 2015-11-16T09:44:33  <gmaxwell> and with conflicts on a fork, some bitcoins people though they had end up forever not-money.
 406 2015-11-16T09:45:13  <gmaxwell> I spent an ungodly amount of time trying to invent a way that forks resulted in inflation (socialized cost) instead of loss; but couldn't ever find one where it didn't incentivize miners to create forks.
 407 2015-11-16T09:45:57  <gmaxwell> (Oddly ethereum deployed one of these schemes with this property, though in a very limited extent; and its inflationary to begin with, so perhaps less of an issue that miners can abuse it by behaving strategically)
 408 2015-11-16T09:47:20  <cubicearth> Yes, but I am still not seeing the need for 100% ... because of the quality of information hashing provides.... so I guess the question back to you is: what size split is just fine?  5% / 95%?  At some threshold, that someone choose to look at some tiny, weak branch would just be their own fault.
 409 2015-11-16T09:48:45  <gmaxwell> It's not a question of "tiny weak branch", when someone mines a new block, at the instant they're at the tip, nothing better exists.
 410 2015-11-16T09:50:17  <gmaxwell> even at 5% you have non-trivial odds of getting 2 blocks before the network gets 2.  I don't think you can say any amount is "safe" but at some point it falls under the normal noise floor of forks happening by chance in the network.
 411 2015-11-16T09:50:42  <gmaxwell> er, getting 1 more block before the network gets 2.
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 416 2015-11-16T09:52:11  <cubicearth> Yes, and now it seems like we are looking at the standard attack-hashpower-table that Meni published.
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 418 2015-11-16T09:56:13  <cubicearth> My intuition is that the system will ultimately  be more stable when there are multiple implementations of the consensus code, hopefully all striving to achieve the same results, but having been written from scratch by different teams.  It's clear this would result in more accidental forks, so for such a system to be functional, there would have to be well developed methods of detecting and handling forks.  Both on the wallet s
 419 2015-11-16T09:56:14  <cubicearth> ide, and on the miner side.
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 421 2015-11-16T09:57:08  <cubicearth> The pressure to never have a bug would be reduced though.
 422 2015-11-16T09:59:30  <gmaxwell> Ethereum seems to be pratical counter evidence to this, with frequent cross implementation disagreements.
 423 2015-11-16T10:00:42  <gmaxwell> But even if so-- seems unlikely to come about, because the cost of creating a correct implementation is astronomic; and that effort could instead be spent innovating in other ways.
 424 2015-11-16T10:01:18  <gmaxwell> Otherwise you'd have 20 much less featureful versions of bitcoin, instead of 20 people working on bitcoin core.
 425 2015-11-16T10:02:55  *** sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
 426 2015-11-16T10:03:18  <cubicearth> Yes, I know you guys are expensive :)  Hopefully in the near future there will be many hundreds of high-quality devs.  Maybe they will be funded by central banks.  I know, dreaming.
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 430 2015-11-16T10:04:30  <gmaxwell> Perhaps! it would be nice, I still dunno how you would then get uniform usage. Look at how competing bitcoin exchanges work out, everyone clustering around a few; and I think software has even more pressure to stick to fewer implementations.
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 433 2015-11-16T10:05:40  <gmaxwell> features, support, tribal knoweldge, cooperation enabling a virtious cycle,  and then add in the bitcoin specific risk that niche implementations are potenitally less consensus safe just because they'd stand alone in a fork.
 434 2015-11-16T10:06:13  <bumbar_> i'm trying to build bitcoin, but am getting an error https://dpaste.de/bGMW , do i need to downgrade boost?
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 437 2015-11-16T10:11:12  <jonasschnelli> bumbar_ : what os? boost version?
 438 2015-11-16T10:15:16  *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
 439 2015-11-16T10:18:58  <bumbar_> jonasschnelli, ubuntu 14.04, boost 1_54
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 445 2015-11-16T10:21:58  <jonasschnelli> bumbar_ : maybe you face the following issue? http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-office/2015-February/002706.html
 446 2015-11-16T10:23:04  <GamerSg> I have a question regarding BIP65, how will Core report received coins which are locked when using listtransactions?
 447 2015-11-16T10:24:13  <GamerSg> Sorry, i meant listsinceblock
 448 2015-11-16T10:25:06  <sipa> GamerSg: not, they're not accepted by the wallet or mempool until they're finalized
 449 2015-11-16T10:25:55  <GamerSg> sipa: could you elaborate on finalized? Do you mean spendable?
 450 2015-11-16T10:26:43  <sipa> GamerSg: finalized means that its nLockTime field is a time or height that lies in the past
 451 2015-11-16T10:27:04  <sipa> transactions are only acceptable in the blockchain if they are finalized
 452 2015-11-16T10:27:52  <sipa> cltv just sets a constraint on what nlocktime a spending transaction can have
 453 2015-11-16T10:28:14  <sipa> which is a time-independent check
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 455 2015-11-16T10:28:53  <sipa> so you can test your question right now already, by creating a transaction with a non-zero nLockTime that is in the future
 456 2015-11-16T10:29:25  <GamerSg> wldnt a output locked by cltv 1000 blocks away still be mined into a block?
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 458 2015-11-16T10:34:31  <GamerSg> sorry if im understanding this wrong, my current understanding for cltv is that i can declare that my outputs cannot be spent until X blocks in the future.  This txn can be mined into the blockchain and prevents me from double spending the same outputs and assures the receiver
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 461 2015-11-16T10:39:09  <bumbar_> jonasschnelli, thanks, i'm rebuild boost now
 462 2015-11-16T10:40:19  <jonasschnelli> bumbar_: Is there a reason to not take the standard packages? "sudo apt-get install libboost-all-dev"?
 463 2015-11-16T10:40:23  <jonasschnelli> also check: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-unix.md
 464 2015-11-16T10:41:24  <bumbar_> latest version i can get from standard package is 1.55
 465 2015-11-16T10:42:58  <cubicearth> gmaxwell: I've calculated  out the scenario we discussed, with 2-minute blocks and 10% hashrate for a few example cases.  For a 20-minute interval, @ 100% hashpower the chance of having FOUR OR MORE blocks is 98.9%    ---->  1.89%  chance of the same when  actual hashpower is reduced to 10%
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 467 2015-11-16T10:44:11  <cubicearth> For a 1-hour interval, and 10 BLOCKS OR MORE, the odds go from 99.997% --->  0.11%
 468 2015-11-16T10:46:12  <jonasschnelli> bumbar_ : 1.55 is fine.
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 470 2015-11-16T10:49:27  <sturles> The new policy of basing mining on fees only, and deprecate priority, means longer waiting for purchases paid with bitcoin, right?  In the past, if I trusted a sender, I would know a transaction would finally get confirmed as the priority increased.  As long as I could trust the sender not to double spend.  Will the next version have some way to indicate if a received transaction has enough fees
 471 2015-11-16T10:49:33  <sturles> to likely get mined within n blocks, or should merchans have to wait for the first confirmation no matter how trusted the sender is?
 472 2015-11-16T10:50:25  <sturles> Not that I ever send money before a transaction has been confirmed, but merchants using my system may send goods.
 473 2015-11-16T10:51:07  <sturles> It is their own risk, but the risk is many times higher without the priority concept.
 474 2015-11-16T10:52:02  <sturles> It would be very useful if Bitcoin Core could give an indication of how high the risk is for each transaction, as it will obviously increase a lot.
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 484 2015-11-16T11:11:28  <midnightmagic> So my gitian problem is still a problem; it *appears* as though the results of building the 0.10.3rc* are actually just plain 0.10.3, so they don't match up with anything. Therefore, when I build them again I'll submit what I now believe are *current* gitian hashes after all.
 485 2015-11-16T11:12:15  <midnightmagic> (don't match up with the other gitian sigs I mean, which presumably were built at some prior time.)
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 504 2015-11-16T11:53:52  <matsjj> I read (a fairly dated) explanation about the algorithm of sending inv messages here ( http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3273/when-does-the-main-client-relay-its-knowledge-of-txs-in-inv-message ) ... Is this still correct? Is there an option to relay inv messages about all received objects to another (set) node? What are the chances of one node receiving an inv within X seconds?
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 589 2015-11-16T14:19:10  <jtimon> hurray! libsecp256k1 validation!
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 606 2015-11-16T14:54:43  <btcdrak> jtimon: bitcoin core just got it's go-faster-stripes. vrooooom
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 609 2015-11-16T14:56:22  <jtimon> btcdrak: plus removing openSSL as a consensus dependency, that's pretty big too
 610 2015-11-16T14:57:00  <btcdrak> yeah, wow, broken free from the shackles of legacy
 611 2015-11-16T14:57:12  <kanzure> btcdrak: more stripes, at least. there have been other improvements of course.
 612 2015-11-16T14:57:27  <btcdrak> bitcoin zebra
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 779 2015-11-16T18:57:13  <Q65> Hello everyone, was hoping to get an answer from an expert..
 780 2015-11-16T18:57:23  <Q65> Concerning BIP65: Say I am running a wallet service on an outdated 0.11 node. Now one of my addresses receives an incoming transaction that cannot be spent until some point in the far future.
 781 2015-11-16T18:57:31  <Q65> This transaction however will get mined and receive confirmations(?). So the RPC Call GetBalance 1abc[...] 6 f.e. would return the balance, even if it is unspendable?
 782 2015-11-16T18:57:41  <Q65> Would a wallet service have to change its payment verification? Any hint would be highly appreciated!
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 786 2015-11-16T19:00:34  <PRab> Q65: I'll be happy to answer over in #bitcoin
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 789 2015-11-16T19:02:02  <gmaxwell> (It's technical enough that I'll take it here) Q65: the answer is simple, 0.11 (and 0.12) for that matter will never emit an address that uses CLTV, so you cannot ever recieve a payment using it.
 790 2015-11-16T19:02:15  <gmaxwell> And so the situation you are asking about is impossible.
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 793 2015-11-16T19:05:42  <Q65> Thank you very much gmaxwell!
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 797 2015-11-16T19:07:02  <sipa> Q65: also, CLTV does _not_ change when a transaction becomes valid
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 799 2015-11-16T19:07:23  <sipa> Q65: nLockTime does that, and is already treated correctly by your wallet, as it's a very old feature
 800 2015-11-16T19:07:53  <sipa> Q65: CLTV establishes whether a particular transaction spending an output is valid or not, independent of time
 801 2015-11-16T19:08:07  <sipa> (and does so by constraining nLockTime, but it doesn't constraint the time itself)
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 809 2015-11-16T19:11:10  <Q65> Thank you sipa. I think I am about to understand now :)
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 837 2015-11-16T19:49:58  <kenresti1o> is 0.13 the right version of bitcoinj for developing an app, or should i really be using 0.14-SNAPSHOT? are there major breaking changes between them?
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 839 2015-11-16T19:54:30  <phantomcircuit> kenrestivo, nobody here can help you with that
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 868 2015-11-16T20:07:22  <kenrestivo> haha, is there a #bitcoinj channel?
 869 2015-11-16T20:08:01  <kenrestivo> better question, should i stay away from bitcoinj? has it been disowned?
 870 2015-11-16T20:08:48  <kenrestivo> answered me own first question, there is a #bitcoinj channel. joined. now as for the second question...?
 871 2015-11-16T20:09:24  <haakonn> why do you think it's been disowned?
 872 2015-11-16T20:09:37  <jonasschnelli> kenrestivo: bitcoinj has been used widely. Multibit/Schildbachs wallet, etc. IMO it's a stable SPV library.
 873 2015-11-16T20:09:56  <kenrestivo> thanks.
 874 2015-11-16T20:10:01  <jonasschnelli> But it always depends where you want to use it.
 875 2015-11-16T20:10:28  <jonasschnelli> For a wallet: can make sense. For a online merchant system, better not.
 876 2015-11-16T20:10:58  <kenrestivo> aye. should i be using the reference implementation and json api for merchant, and nothing else?
 877 2015-11-16T20:11:34  <kenrestivo> i am aware of the tradeoffs of SPV vs fully validating.
 878 2015-11-16T20:12:45  <jonasschnelli> kenrestivo: Yes. Of a merchant service or something similar, you have a better stand if you run a fullnode as backend.
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 880 2015-11-16T20:13:11  <kenrestivo> thanks.
 881 2015-11-16T20:13:14  <jonasschnelli> You have full validation, mempool interaction, fee setimations, etc.
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 913 2015-11-16T20:57:18  <amiller_> im trying to build from master to try out the new ibsecp256k1.....   /home/ubuntu/installing/bitcoin/src/key.cpp:206: undefined reference to `secp256k1_ecdsa_recoverable_signature_serialize_compact'
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 915 2015-11-16T20:57:53  <amiller_> i did make clean and configure but didn't totally clobber, i ddunno
 916 2015-11-16T20:58:17  <sipa> you need to git clean -dfx
 917 2015-11-16T20:58:38  <amiller_> oh
 918 2015-11-16T20:58:54  <sipa> the dependency trackign system doesn't see that libsecp256k1 needs to be built with new configure flags
 919 2015-11-16T20:59:10  <sipa> so it doesn't regenerate the subtree's configure script
 920 2015-11-16T20:59:42  <sipa> (git clean -dfx will wipe every single not-checked-in file, be careful)
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1077 2015-11-16T23:05:46  <lipak> hi
1078 2015-11-16T23:05:58  <lipak> i have been trying to understand the deterministic build process of bitcoin
1079 2015-11-16T23:06:37  <lipak> i was able to build bitcoin deterministically and was able to understand the gitian script and bitcoin yml script
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1099 2015-11-16T23:07:03  <lipak> i am now looking at source code commits that might have been required to make the build process deterministic
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1105 2015-11-16T23:07:26  <lipak> however, i am unable to look at an older version of bitcoin source
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1111 2015-11-16T23:08:08  <lipak> can you help me point out a few commits to begin with so that i can understand how bitcoin build process has been deterministic ?
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1115 2015-11-16T23:08:46  <gmaxwell> coryfields can probably comment on this, warren may have some comments.
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1122 2015-11-16T23:10:07  <gappleto97> Hi all. I have a script that I *think* will verify bitcoin addresses as valid, but I'd like to make sure. Can you take a look for me? https://github.com/gappleto97/Senior-Project/blob/master/common/bounty.py#L55
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