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395 2015-11-19T12:41:09 <therethere> Hello can anyone tell me some tips to reduce memory usage of the bitcoin client? I'm gonna re-compile it now
396 2015-11-19T12:41:51 <sipa> therethere: master branch has significant memory reductions, but is probably not ready for production
397 2015-11-19T12:42:54 <wumpus> therethere: https://gist.github.com/laanwj/efe29c7661ce9b6620a7
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399 2015-11-19T12:43:43 <sipa> wumpus: you may want to remove the "maxorphanblocks" there :)
400 2015-11-19T12:43:52 <wumpus> good idea
401 2015-11-19T12:44:32 <therethere> I tried the dbcache trick, it improved the memory usage but not substantially
402 2015-11-19T12:44:51 <therethere> It still gets to ±2GB after 10hrs aprox
403 2015-11-19T12:44:54 <therethere> which is huge
404 2015-11-19T12:45:06 <sipa> therethere: try increasing the minimum relay fee
405 2015-11-19T12:45:20 <wumpus> I see I haven't included the minrelayfee suggestion from the 0.11 release notes
406 2015-11-19T12:45:36 <sipa> therethere: 0.12 will automatically do that, though
407 2015-11-19T12:47:12 <therethere> I'll up the minrelayfee some more I guess as for the "export MALLOC_ARENA_MAX=1" any chances of this messing up other programs?
408 2015-11-19T12:48:22 <wumpus> not if you only set it when executing bitcoind
409 2015-11-19T12:48:47 <therethere> And if there's something I can modify directly in code can anyone direct me to it before I compile this new version? I ran several full nodes and while I'd like to support the network further, their main purpose is for wallet functionality and if the RAM usage becomes problematic I might have to switch to something else and shut down the nodes :(
410 2015-11-19T12:48:48 <wumpus> no guarantees what will happen if you add it to some top-level script (eg .profile or rc.local) so don't do that
411 2015-11-19T12:49:07 <therethere> Is that doable in a cron?
412 2015-11-19T12:49:09 <therethere> oh ok
413 2015-11-19T12:49:41 <sipa> therethere: if you're running a production wallet, better not use the master branch
414 2015-11-19T12:49:42 <wumpus> just make a script that sets it and then calls bitcoind
415 2015-11-19T12:49:57 <sipa> therethere: in which case you can just use 0.11.3, no need to recompile
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417 2015-11-19T12:53:01 <therethere> Yes this is for production wallets. So should I just get latest binary (0.11.2 ?). I do like squeezing every last bit of performance which compiling should achieve in theory
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420 2015-11-19T12:54:15 <sipa> therethere: it won't, not unless taking significant risks by compiling with experimental optimization flags
421 2015-11-19T12:56:03 <therethere> Alright. Thanks a lot for the help!
422 2015-11-19T12:56:36 <wumpus> also there's nothing in manual compiling that will reduce memory usage significantly, e.g. making the executable smaller would only count for very little
423 2015-11-19T12:57:42 <sipa> therethere: though by all means feel free to try the master branch, it should be both significantly faster and use less memory
424 2015-11-19T12:57:47 <sipa> s/try/test/
425 2015-11-19T12:59:38 <therethere> Thanks sipa I am compiling it now and will definitely test it out and in the meantime I'll go with stable releases + higher minrelayfee for production.
426 2015-11-19T13:01:48 <wumpus> if it is a wallet with a lot of transactions that may cause lots of memory usage too
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429 2015-11-19T13:07:32 <therethere> So should I "reset" the wallet every x transactions?
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433 2015-11-19T13:11:27 <sipa> therethere: how many transactions are we talking about?
434 2015-11-19T13:11:56 <wumpus> there are companies doing that, yes, but that's talking about 100,000+ transactions
435 2015-11-19T13:12:58 <wumpus> IMO, 2GB of memory usage shouldn't be something you should worry about in a serious production setting, although monitoring it is good
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441 2015-11-19T13:21:03 <therethere> I have under 10k right now
442 2015-11-19T13:21:56 <therethere> Well 2GB is alright now considering before it used to climb up to 3+ and my systems run on 4GB
443 2015-11-19T13:23:12 <sipa> 10k shouldn't hurt
444 2015-11-19T13:24:01 <therethere> Finished compiling it , I get this tor: Disconnected from Tor control port 127.0.0.1:9051, trying to reconnect
445 2015-11-19T13:24:10 <therethere> Any ideea what this is?
446 2015-11-19T13:24:53 <wumpus> just ignore it
447 2015-11-19T13:25:47 <wumpus> that's https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7035
448 2015-11-19T13:25:57 <noamh> does anyone know how I can regenerate the src/test/data/*.json files?
449 2015-11-19T13:26:16 <wumpus> noamh: which ones specifically?
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452 2015-11-19T13:26:30 <sipa> noamh: some are generated with code, but most are hand written
453 2015-11-19T13:26:33 <wumpus> there are some of the json files (base58, part of the tx tests) that can be generated, the rest is human-written
454 2015-11-19T13:26:36 <wumpus> right
455 2015-11-19T13:26:50 <noamh> transaction_tests for example
456 2015-11-19T13:27:39 <noamh> II know how to do it for script_tests using the define UPDATE_JSON_TESTS
457 2015-11-19T13:27:53 <sipa> those are hand written, afaik
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459 2015-11-19T13:28:18 <wumpus> right, if it doesn't have anything like UPDATE_JSON_TESTS then they are hand written
460 2015-11-19T13:28:44 <wumpus> if it doesn't have anything like UPDATE_JSON_TESTS then they are hand written, I was confused with the script tests then, but check the respective source file to be sure
461 2015-11-19T13:28:59 <wumpus> better question: why are you trying to do this?
462 2015-11-19T13:30:40 <noamh> experimenting with some serialization stuff
463 2015-11-19T13:32:33 <wumpus> ok
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496 2015-11-19T14:44:53 <akrmn> Can some one please explain the ordering of the blocks in the blk*.dat files? For example, I run over blk00000.dat and I keep getting blocks in order hashing the previous blocks, but then after block 2288, instead of block 2289, I get block 2305 according to blockchain.info.
497 2015-11-19T14:45:37 <sipa> akrmn: they are stored in the order they are received
498 2015-11-19T14:45:38 <akrmn> Do I need to use the leveldb databse to tell me where in the files to find the blocks?
499 2015-11-19T14:45:57 <akrmn> o ok...
500 2015-11-19T14:45:58 <sipa> akrmn: you can scan for block markers, but you'll need to build the tree yourself
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508 2015-11-19T14:47:05 <akrmn> ya there was also problems I had with not finding the next magic number after skipping the number of bytes indicated by the blocksize, but that's another issue
509 2015-11-19T14:47:26 <sipa> there can be garbage in between blocks too
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512 2015-11-19T14:47:52 <akrmn> how?
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516 2015-11-19T14:48:17 <akrmn> doesn't the program check that it's valid before writing to the file?
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521 2015-11-19T14:51:46 <wumpus> it does, but it is possible for there to be padding in some cases, to properly scan the block files you need to look for the block markers; see e.g. the scripts in contrib/linearize for an example
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530 2015-11-19T14:58:58 <morcos> wumpus: you can add to your low memory gist that unless you have reason to , don't ever call getblocktemplate.
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532 2015-11-19T14:59:29 <morcos> of course the effect is much reduced with 1 memory arena, but its still pretty bad if you have a decent sized mempool
533 2015-11-19T14:59:42 <morcos> that should be fixed in 0.12 as well
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547 2015-11-19T15:12:12 <wumpus> I don't expect people will be calling getblocktemplate without a good reason
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687 2015-11-19T19:00:11 <wumpus> #meetingstart
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689 2015-11-19T19:00:38 <wumpus> #startmeeting
690 2015-11-19T19:00:38 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 19 19:00:38 2015 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
691 2015-11-19T19:00:38 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
692 2015-11-19T19:01:16 <wumpus> ok, any topics?
693 2015-11-19T19:01:19 <sipa> suggested topic: priority clarification
694 2015-11-19T19:01:42 <wumpus> #topic priority clarification
695 2015-11-19T19:01:44 <sipa> suggested topic: dealing with mempool eviction
696 2015-11-19T19:02:01 <sipa> so it wasn't entirely clear to me after last weekend what the plan was wrt priority
697 2015-11-19T19:02:45 <sipa> but imho, either we stop supporting it for tx creation entirely (meaning estimatepriority etc go away)
698 2015-11-19T19:02:48 <sipa> or it keeps working
699 2015-11-19T19:03:20 <sipa> which also means a mempool area for priority, or there's no way to keep wallet-created priority transactions in
700 2015-11-19T19:03:23 <morcos> sipa: i am ok with either. i vote for stop supporting it for tx creation entirely.
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702 2015-11-19T19:04:14 <morcos> i feel like we will keep going round and round on this issue release after release unless we finally start pulling off the bandaid
703 2015-11-19T19:04:28 <morcos> if we develop a better framework for supporting a similar type metric we can add it back
704 2015-11-19T19:04:47 <morcos> but we waste too much time debating it.
705 2015-11-19T19:05:04 <wumpus> action point for that for last week re: priority was to look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6134
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707 2015-11-19T19:05:47 <jgarzik> it sounded like luke-jr was the only one opposed to ceasing support for it
708 2015-11-19T19:06:12 <wumpus> he's also the person that introduced the priority deltas IIRC
709 2015-11-19T19:06:12 <btcdrak> morcos: we should pull the bandaid now imo
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711 2015-11-19T19:06:27 <morcos> wumpus: yes #6134 is required either way. if we decide to start including priority support, we can make a simple modification to that pull to return the estimate maxed with mempools min priority instead of infinity
712 2015-11-19T19:06:47 <morcos> i think other people (including myself) think the notion has some benefit
713 2015-11-19T19:07:18 <morcos> but its a matter of introducing additional complicatin at this point to continue supportin git
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715 2015-11-19T19:08:21 <gmaxwell> I've decided to stop disliking the complete removal of priority.
716 2015-11-19T19:08:40 <jtimon> I won't insist on this, but everything (including 6134) would just be simpler without having to worry about the priority code
717 2015-11-19T19:08:44 <CodeShark> I never really liked it in the first place
718 2015-11-19T19:08:44 <jgarzik> yay!
719 2015-11-19T19:09:08 <BlueMatt> yay!
720 2015-11-19T19:09:13 <btcdrak> do it
721 2015-11-19T19:09:37 <jtimon> iirc Luke-Jr wasn't so happy about removing it, but not now nor eventually
722 2015-11-19T19:09:39 <BlueMatt> wumpus: we have fee deltas that work in the same way, though
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724 2015-11-19T19:10:22 <wumpus> yes, we can still support a similar delta
725 2015-11-19T19:10:33 <sipa> i'd still like to try adding a "count very small fraction of bitcoin-days-destroyed as extra fee"
726 2015-11-19T19:10:46 <wumpus> txfee rate delta
727 2015-11-19T19:10:57 <morcos> If this is the path we follow (which I agree with), then I would suggest for the mining code we use the lowerBoundPriority concept from 7008 for 0.12.
728 2015-11-19T19:10:58 <sipa> wumpus: fee delta
729 2015-11-19T19:11:09 <CodeShark> clarification: I never really liked the priority code - I only disliked removing it because it was too tangled up
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731 2015-11-19T19:11:29 <sipa> morcos: sounds good to me
732 2015-11-19T19:11:30 <BlueMatt> sipa: I think we can only do that if there is a very low cap
733 2015-11-19T19:11:33 <BlueMatt> at which point its useless
734 2015-11-19T19:11:35 <BlueMatt> so....why?
735 2015-11-19T19:11:42 <sipa> BlueMatt: i know
736 2015-11-19T19:11:47 <sipa> BlueMatt: i said try
737 2015-11-19T19:11:52 <BlueMatt> fair enough
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739 2015-11-19T19:12:25 <wumpus> ok - next topic?
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741 2015-11-19T19:12:34 <Luke-Jr> I will discourage all miners from upgrading if priority is removed.
742 2015-11-19T19:12:44 <sdaftuar> so do we actually need to modify 6134? i think it's fine in it's current form. we -could- take out futher priority support, but i think it works pretty well as is.
743 2015-11-19T19:12:56 <btcdrak> suggested topic: merge #6312 sequence numbers
744 2015-11-19T19:12:56 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's not removed from mining, only from the wallet
745 2015-11-19T19:12:59 <Luke-Jr> sipa: ok
746 2015-11-19T19:13:13 <sipa> Luke-Jr: though you'll need a sufficiently large mempool to keep priority txn in
747 2015-11-19T19:13:14 <Luke-Jr> that seems acceptable, since nobody is really maintaining the wallet
748 2015-11-19T19:13:21 <morcos> sdaftuar: I think if we remove priority from other tx creation places it'll be equivalently easy to move in from 6134
749 2015-11-19T19:13:38 <morcos> i'd merge 6134 first (after it gets reviewed) and then let people remove priority
750 2015-11-19T19:13:48 <morcos> but 6134 has important fee estimation changes
751 2015-11-19T19:13:51 <sdaftuar> morcos: ok that makes sense to me
752 2015-11-19T19:14:03 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: my offer to help adapting any codebase to a non-priority future still stands (even/spcially if you think that case it's "impossible")
753 2015-11-19T19:14:06 <sipa> wumpus: suggested topic: dealing with evicted wallet transactions
754 2015-11-19T19:14:08 <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't dislike that "count as extra fee", though I think morcos convinced me that it won't make the big improvement I thought it would. (and if we were going to bias a bit it could be utxo destroyed)
755 2015-11-19T19:14:10 <BlueMatt> morcos: i thought this was always the plan?
756 2015-11-19T19:14:52 <sipa> gmaxwell: he convinced me too... but... numbers after trying say more
757 2015-11-19T19:15:53 <wumpus> #topic dealing with mempool eviction
758 2015-11-19T19:16:22 <sipa> so: problem: currently when a wallet transaction is evicted, the wallet considers the resulting transaction as "conflicting" and will happily respend the inputs
759 2015-11-19T19:16:43 <BlueMatt> add a timeout, done
760 2015-11-19T19:16:48 <gmaxwell> We knew when we added the conflicting stuff using the mempool that it would be problematic later. (I checked logs)
761 2015-11-19T19:16:51 <sipa> suggested solution: only when accepttomemorypool fails due to non-existing inputs does the wallet treat the result as conflicting
762 2015-11-19T19:16:53 <BlueMatt> makes the wallet shitty, but we need rbf
763 2015-11-19T19:16:58 <wumpus> I think that's the wrong behavior, it shouldn't automatically regard transactions that you created yourself as respendable
764 2015-11-19T19:17:18 <BlueMatt> sipa: it should consider it respendable at some point later on, though
765 2015-11-19T19:17:24 <jtimon> what's the definition of an evicted tx?
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767 2015-11-19T19:17:35 <Luke-Jr> the wallet code needs to understand when transactions are *actually* conflicted
768 2015-11-19T19:17:39 <Luke-Jr> fix that and the rest just works
769 2015-11-19T19:17:40 <wumpus> just add a way to manually remove transactions if the user doesn't care aout it anymore
770 2015-11-19T19:17:41 <sipa> + add a removewallettransaction function (GUI/RPC) which removes unconfirmed transactions (the GUI version can warn if it's still in the mempool at that point)
771 2015-11-19T19:18:08 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that corresponds exactly (afaik) to failing with missing inputs
772 2015-11-19T19:18:19 <gmaxwell> the 'remove' should perhaps not remove but tag as removed. I am uncomfortable with anything that destroys records.
773 2015-11-19T19:18:26 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: that would be good, too, but I don't like anything involving a timeout
774 2015-11-19T19:18:27 <jgarzik> That will be a big usability improvement for Bitcoin Core users...
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778 2015-11-19T19:18:35 <jgarzik> rename if not remove
779 2015-11-19T19:18:42 <jonasschnelli> removewallettransaction: tag as removed and remove it withing the next x hours when no confirmation come in?
780 2015-11-19T19:18:47 <jonasschnelli> *comes
781 2015-11-19T19:18:52 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I agree, a timeout would not fix the logic here. And even if we added a timeout, we would still need to fix the logic.
782 2015-11-19T19:18:52 <wumpus> gmaxwell: well as long as it's no longer visible
783 2015-11-19T19:18:58 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: any reason to remove vs move to another list?
784 2015-11-19T19:19:04 <jgarzik> s/remove/store it as archived but invisible/
785 2015-11-19T19:19:10 <gmaxwell> archive would be fine.
786 2015-11-19T19:19:10 <petertodd> sipa: rather than remove, maybe have a atomic thing to force acceptance of a double-spend?
787 2015-11-19T19:19:16 <wumpus> as long as it's *effectively* removed
788 2015-11-19T19:19:23 <jgarzik> archivewallettransactions
789 2015-11-19T19:19:32 <petertodd> sipa: remove could give the impression the tx can't be mined in the future...
790 2015-11-19T19:19:45 <wumpus> I mean people use -zapwallettxes now, this deletes all unconfirmed transactions
791 2015-11-19T19:19:46 <sipa> maybe we need something separate that just marks a tx as respendable
792 2015-11-19T19:19:46 <Luke-Jr> if we don't have a "is this transaction conflicted" function, it probably isn't hard to write one..
793 2015-11-19T19:20:03 <gmaxwell> yes, archive then, and effectively removes it. I'm concerned that either will be seen as canceled but we could allow archival only once confirmed or conflicted?
794 2015-11-19T19:20:03 <Luke-Jr> might be more expensive though, if we're not careful
795 2015-11-19T19:20:20 <gmaxwell> lets perhaps not do design in the meeting (/me guilty look)
796 2015-11-19T19:20:52 <jonasschnelli> should we agree on adding a function (RPC/GUI) that can remove/archive an transaction? specs. done later?
797 2015-11-19T19:20:54 <jtimon> sipa: yeah, like an opt-in RBF or something but for non-respendable transactions...
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799 2015-11-19T19:21:22 <sipa> well the important part is being able to mark a transaction as respendable
800 2015-11-19T19:21:32 <sipa> whether that also archives/deletes/hides... is extra functionality
801 2015-11-19T19:21:48 <petertodd> giveupontx
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803 2015-11-19T19:21:55 <jtimon> yeah, sorry the important part is to free the inputs
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805 2015-11-19T19:22:27 <jtimon> freeinputstransaction ?
806 2015-11-19T19:22:31 <wumpus> bleh
807 2015-11-19T19:22:31 <gmaxwell> indeed, it shouldn't be silent because you may need to resend the payment.
808 2015-11-19T19:22:41 <gmaxwell> archive sounded fine to me.
809 2015-11-19T19:22:48 <petertodd> jtimon: free is way too overloaded for this space :)
810 2015-11-19T19:22:53 <sipa> bitcoin wallet for android has a "respend with higher fee" function
811 2015-11-19T19:22:58 <sipa> i think
812 2015-11-19T19:22:59 <jtimon> petertodd: fair enough
813 2015-11-19T19:23:00 <gmaxwell> also archiving transactions could (eventually) improve performance of listtransactions and such.
814 2015-11-19T19:23:17 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that would be a nice feature regardless of removal
815 2015-11-19T19:23:22 <wumpus> I would like an option to just forget about a transaction completely - but yes, that's unrelated to the mempool eviction thing
816 2015-11-19T19:23:24 <sipa> but we need a minimal viable idea for 0.12 (as morcos said)
817 2015-11-19T19:23:40 <jtimon> yeah respendtransaction seems cooler than archivetransaction
818 2015-11-19T19:24:36 <Luke-Jr> minimum viable idea IMO is to fix the "isconflicted" method
819 2015-11-19T19:24:50 <Luke-Jr> whatever we do otherwise, we still need that fixed
820 2015-11-19T19:24:52 <gmaxwell> do we have other topics (we can discuss this more later. I think minimum viable is what sipa suggests.
821 2015-11-19T19:24:54 <sipa> Luke-Jr: that means you still get coins that may be locked up for infinity
822 2015-11-19T19:25:01 <gmaxwell> that we detect conflict instead of non-mempooling.
823 2015-11-19T19:25:08 <jtimon> but archivetransaction and then spend seems equivalent (assuming you can chose one of the inputs from the archived transaction)
824 2015-11-19T19:25:13 <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, that's not a regression
825 2015-11-19T19:25:45 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it's still a regression wrt 0.11, where wallet transactions wouldn't be kicked out of the mempool until they were actually conflicted
826 2015-11-19T19:25:54 <gmaxwell> sipa: luke means the and-immediately-respendable, part as we have now.
827 2015-11-19T19:26:00 <sipa> ok
828 2015-11-19T19:26:18 <gmaxwell> sipa: luke is saying we detect actual conflict instead of non-mempoolability and leave the coins immediately respendable.
829 2015-11-19T19:26:21 <sipa> no other suggested topicks afaik
830 2015-11-19T19:26:28 <wumpus> I don't think we have any other topics
831 2015-11-19T19:26:32 <gmaxwell> Which I agree is the essential first step.
832 2015-11-19T19:26:35 <btcdrak> suggested topic: sequence numbers..
833 2015-11-19T19:26:48 <jonasschnelli> suggested topic: bdb replacement
834 2015-11-19T19:26:54 <morcos> gmaxwell: important though that if we add that step, we note we've now locked up inputs that perviously would have been freed
835 2015-11-19T19:27:06 <sipa> yes, that was my point too ^
836 2015-11-19T19:27:06 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: that's a Core-specific matter
837 2015-11-19T19:27:07 <morcos> also given the tight deadlines, hopefully somebody volunteers to work on this
838 2015-11-19T19:27:07 <jgarzik> I like both those topics :)
839 2015-11-19T19:27:22 <Luke-Jr> (also, FWIW I need to go in 4 minutes.)
840 2015-11-19T19:27:22 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, we handle plenty of Core-specific stuff in this meeting
841 2015-11-19T19:27:25 <jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr : agreed.
842 2015-11-19T19:27:42 <wumpus> #topic sequence numbers
843 2015-11-19T19:28:08 <btcdrak> what's left to get this merged?
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845 2015-11-19T19:29:01 <sipa> btcdrak: why do we need it merged? we need to wait until BIP113 is deployed as standardness so 68/112/113 can go in a softfork
846 2015-11-19T19:29:05 <gmaxwell> because of soft fork feature binding I think I want to move in a direction where we don't soft fork in major versions.
847 2015-11-19T19:29:12 <jtimon> I just posted a little nit to sipa's latest commit
848 2015-11-19T19:29:27 <jgarzik> As mentioned in one of the PRs, my biggest concern was nascent projects already using sequence numbers, and this would introduce a new behavior into the field
849 2015-11-19T19:29:28 <gmaxwell> but we should still be moving this code to maturity.
850 2015-11-19T19:29:30 <CodeShark> sipa: I think he's just sick of rebasing it :)
851 2015-11-19T19:29:43 <btcdrak> BIP113 standardness already is being mined by 36% of the network and rising fast
852 2015-11-19T19:29:43 * jgarzik did a scan of projects and it seemed manageable
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855 2015-11-19T19:30:38 <sipa> gmaxwell: absolutely
856 2015-11-19T19:30:41 <jtimon> well, merging bip68, would also make bip112 esier to review
857 2015-11-19T19:30:43 <petertodd> btcdrak: what do you mean there?
858 2015-11-19T19:30:43 <sipa> CodeShark: understably!
859 2015-11-19T19:30:59 <btcdrak> *bad language, I mean, 36% of miners so far appear to be applying policy
860 2015-11-19T19:31:05 <petertodd> btcdrak: ah, thanks
861 2015-11-19T19:31:29 <sipa> CodeShark: that's a portmonteau of "understandably" and "stable"
862 2015-11-19T19:31:42 <CodeShark> :)
863 2015-11-19T19:32:15 <btcdrak> I would like to see bip68 and 112 merged, then we dont have to worry about the PRs rotting or keeping up with all refactoring.
864 2015-11-19T19:32:19 <gmaxwell> going back to my earlier comment, 68/112 could go in as standardness rules though (113 already is)
865 2015-11-19T19:32:33 <gmaxwell> if we feel they are sufficiently reviewed and mature.
866 2015-11-19T19:32:46 <jgarzik> downstream payment channels code -does- make use of lower sequence numbers, but that is usually pre-broadcast
867 2015-11-19T19:32:47 <btcdrak> cltv sat merged for 11 months before we deployed the softfork.
868 2015-11-19T19:32:55 <sipa> btcdrak: we'll need to rebase it for backports anyway... no need to keep it up the whole time
869 2015-11-19T19:33:06 <sipa> (though if people ack it, it should go in, of course)
870 2015-11-19T19:33:07 <jgarzik> +1 for standardness rules
871 2015-11-19T19:33:08 <gmaxwell> btcdrak: do we have a summary of final gripes about the design of them?
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876 2015-11-19T19:33:37 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: well as of today, as I understood it, sipa patched it according to his preference.
877 2015-11-19T19:33:42 <gmaxwell> It's also the case that we can add them as unused code even without the standardness rule.
878 2015-11-19T19:33:51 <btcdrak> so to my knowledge it's good to go.
879 2015-11-19T19:34:13 <jgarzik> +1 on standardness roll out
880 2015-11-19T19:34:25 <gmaxwell> btcdrak: sipa's gribes were implementation related, not the protocol design. If there are no gripes about the protocol design we haven't looked hard enough, there always should be some. :)
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882 2015-11-19T19:34:59 <CodeShark> or we've just given up on doing anything about them :p
883 2015-11-19T19:35:06 <sipa> i have little opinion about bip68 itself; if people feel it's good, it's fine
884 2015-11-19T19:35:07 <gmaxwell> We should perhaps call for gripes on the design. I believe petertodd had some but they were really mild.
885 2015-11-19T19:35:24 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: well thats the point, its fine to go forward with residual gripes but we should know that we are and do so intentionally.
886 2015-11-19T19:36:02 <jtimon> well, even as unused code I think would simplify things, but I still don't see the "wait for bip113 to be widely used to merge bip68 as a policy thing in master"
887 2015-11-19T19:36:20 <jtimon> we need the backports for consensus, not for policy
888 2015-11-19T19:36:35 <morcos> but we all agree we don't need the policy before the soft fork right?
889 2015-11-19T19:36:36 <CodeShark> I personally don't really care how relative locktime is deployed anymore as long as the functionality is there and I can wrap it in my code so that I don't have to look at the ugliness :p
890 2015-11-19T19:36:37 <sipa> jtimon: bip68 is already nonstandard
891 2015-11-19T19:36:42 <morcos> it might not hurt, but its not required
892 2015-11-19T19:37:09 <gmaxwell> Seperate concerns, we should not isstandard enforce unless we're reasonably confident the protocol design will not change.
893 2015-11-19T19:37:22 <gmaxwell> morcos: right we don't need policy before the soft fork, but it can be better than merging dead code.
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895 2015-11-19T19:37:41 <gmaxwell> and allows more (insecure) testing of the protocol.
896 2015-11-19T19:38:13 <jtimon> sipa: ??
897 2015-11-19T19:38:19 <sipa> jtimon: it needs v2 transactions
898 2015-11-19T19:38:26 <sipa> jtimon: which are nonstandard
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900 2015-11-19T19:38:55 <gmaxwell> Okay so I think we should try to see if we can find any gripes, and move towards merging, and turn on as standard after next meeting if the gripes we can find are not convincing at all.
901 2015-11-19T19:38:56 <jtimon> but what is exactly the harm if it gets merged before bip113 is widely used?
902 2015-11-19T19:39:00 <jgarzik> Related - any opinion on reserving bits for TX versions, like version bits does for blocks?
903 2015-11-19T19:39:03 <morcos> wait wait
904 2015-11-19T19:39:05 <sipa> jtimon: nothing
905 2015-11-19T19:39:11 <morcos> sorry i haven't looked at BIP68 in a while
906 2015-11-19T19:39:25 <morcos> but the text does not reflect what i thought was the agreed upon semantics, i haven't checked the code
907 2015-11-19T19:39:27 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: the widely used comment was we cannot softfork 113 until 113 is desployed as isstandardness (well we can but it's preferrable to not)
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909 2015-11-19T19:39:44 <sipa> jtimon: i'm saying we don't need a long wait between deploying bip68 as standardness and doing a softfork for it (like with bip113)
910 2015-11-19T19:39:50 <gmaxwell> morcos: see. okay thats fine, so lets address that.
911 2015-11-19T19:39:51 <jtimon> sipa: I got confused with this "we need to wait until BIP113 is deployed as standardness so 68/112/113 can go in a softfork"
912 2015-11-19T19:40:03 <morcos> i thought there was going to be 512 second resolution on the time part
913 2015-11-19T19:40:15 <morcos> thats the last thing maaku discussed before leaving the project
914 2015-11-19T19:40:16 <sipa> jtimon: bip113 needs to be deployed as standardness rule before we can softfork it, to make sure nothing breaks
915 2015-11-19T19:40:33 <morcos> i'm not sure whats in the code, but the BIP needs to be what we all agree on before we even talk about merging the code
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917 2015-11-19T19:40:46 <jtimon> sipa: yeah thanks now I get what you meant
918 2015-11-19T19:40:52 <gmaxwell> morcos: yup yup. okay, so we need to take a spin on that.
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920 2015-11-19T19:41:30 <sipa> seconds_offset is 5
921 2015-11-19T19:41:39 <sipa> so time is specified in a multiple of 30 seconds?
922 2015-11-19T19:41:45 <sipa> eh, 32
923 2015-11-19T19:41:46 <morcos> the code appears to have the 512 seconds
924 2015-11-19T19:42:12 <morcos> but i refuse to even review the code until the BIP is right, how can you check if the code properly implements the BIP if they describe different things
925 2015-11-19T19:42:22 <sipa> ok, so look at the bip
926 2015-11-19T19:42:59 <morcos> this was the same complaint i had a couple of months ago and i just blew off continuing to look at it because everytime i checked the BIP and the code were describing different things and iw anted to wait for the design to settle down
927 2015-11-19T19:43:08 <morcos> i'm not sure if the design has settled or not
928 2015-11-19T19:43:17 <morcos> and if it has settled, can someone tell me what it settled on
929 2015-11-19T19:43:27 <sipa> it certainly hasn't changed in a long time, and afaik, there are also no other outstanding concerns
930 2015-11-19T19:43:31 <morcos> sorry for getting a bit worked up about this... but why do we keep talking about merging something
931 2015-11-19T19:43:40 <morcos> what hasn't changed in a long time?
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933 2015-11-19T19:43:47 <sipa> bip68
934 2015-11-19T19:43:57 <morcos> does it match the code, maybe i just read it wrong?
935 2015-11-19T19:44:06 <jtimon> morcos: only implementation details have changed recently
936 2015-11-19T19:44:24 <jtimon> morcos: if it doesn't please say so
937 2015-11-19T19:44:48 <sipa> it doesn't match
938 2015-11-19T19:44:56 <sipa> i was not aware
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940 2015-11-19T19:45:30 <btcdrak> I thought maaku had updated that. The PR has the right details. In any case, this is minor to update.
941 2015-11-19T19:45:31 <sipa> bip uses shift 5, implementing shift 9
942 2015-11-19T19:45:40 <sipa> well, that's not good!
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944 2015-11-19T19:45:43 <jtimon> I also got lost in the time resolution discussion so I assumed the code would contain whatever was decided
945 2015-11-19T19:45:48 <wumpus> good to discover that at least before merging...
946 2015-11-19T19:45:51 <morcos> sipa, no, bip uses shift 5, implementing is shift 5+9 with granularity 9
947 2015-11-19T19:46:08 <morcos> i think.
948 2015-11-19T19:46:33 <sipa> so does anyone even know what "the plan" is?
949 2015-11-19T19:46:36 <morcos> oh maybe i'm wrong
950 2015-11-19T19:46:43 <morcos> i assume the code is "the plan"
951 2015-11-19T19:46:53 <btcdrak> what do you mean "the plan". The code is the correct specification.
952 2015-11-19T19:47:00 <jtimon> morcos: let's assume they have to say the same thing
953 2015-11-19T19:47:03 <morcos> but "the plan" should be described in the BIP so we can all decide if we agree on it
954 2015-11-19T19:47:17 <gmaxwell> yes, BIP must be correct.
955 2015-11-19T19:47:25 <btcdrak> It got chanegd so much according to people nits regarding the spec. The last change was the granularity so that BIP68 could be supported on chains with faster blocktimes
956 2015-11-19T19:47:26 <sipa> btcdrak: then what's the point of having a BIP?
957 2015-11-19T19:47:34 <gmaxwell> (or rather there at least must be no known errors in the thing, even if the code is normative!)
958 2015-11-19T19:47:37 <morcos> jtimon: i just meant the current notion of the plan is the same as whats in the code right now, i think
959 2015-11-19T19:47:48 <gmaxwell> also the code is only normative once its network consensus. :P
960 2015-11-19T19:47:51 <btcdrak> I will edit the bip, it's just an oversight, I thought it has been updated by maaku
961 2015-11-19T19:48:07 <morcos> yeah but this is important to get right
962 2015-11-19T19:48:12 <jtimon> morcos: then the specification must be corrected, no?
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966 2015-11-19T19:48:54 <morcos> sipa, i think the code and the BIP are actually completely different
967 2015-11-19T19:49:07 <sipa> why is the SECONDS_FLAG = (1 << 22)?
968 2015-11-19T19:49:09 <morcos> the code looks like the low order 16 bits describe the number of 512 second units
969 2015-11-19T19:49:11 <sipa> where does that number come from
970 2015-11-19T19:49:44 <morcos> my numbers, i don't know.... i'm quickly skimming the code now, probably not the best use of everyones time
971 2015-11-19T19:49:56 <sipa> no, i'm looking at the code
972 2015-11-19T19:50:13 <morcos> yeah thats why we need a BIP
973 2015-11-19T19:50:18 <wumpus> anyhow, so the code and BIP looked to be good at, it's certainly not ready yet
974 2015-11-19T19:50:21 <btcdrak> sipa: there was a long conversation months about about conserving as many bits in nsequence as possible
975 2015-11-19T19:50:36 <morcos> right but the conserved bits are kind of all over the place now
976 2015-11-19T19:50:37 <jgarzik> +1 wumpus
977 2015-11-19T19:50:46 <petertodd> wumpus: ack
978 2015-11-19T19:50:50 <btcdrak> wumpus: no I disagree. the code is ready, the BIP needs to be syncronised. It wont take an hour
979 2015-11-19T19:50:53 <morcos> which might be ok, but it needs to be clearly described
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981 2015-11-19T19:51:06 <morcos> btcdrak: this has to be NACK for 0.12. this is crazy
982 2015-11-19T19:51:22 <petertodd> NACK for v0.12.0 doesn't mean a NACK for v0.12.1 after all
983 2015-11-19T19:51:27 <sipa> petertodd: +1
984 2015-11-19T19:51:30 <wumpus> petertodd: right
985 2015-11-19T19:51:38 <btcdrak> morcos: sorry, I disagree. You are making a big fuss over an administration error
986 2015-11-19T19:51:39 *** priidu has joined #bitcoin-dev
987 2015-11-19T19:51:39 <morcos> we have to agreed on the design specification first. some people maybe think they were agreeing on the BIP and soe think they were agreein gon the code
988 2015-11-19T19:51:51 <gmaxwell> in any case, we really can't merge without the bip being believed consistent-- I agree.
989 2015-11-19T19:51:53 <morcos> i agree i'm making a big fuss :)
990 2015-11-19T19:51:53 <btcdrak> morcos: we already agreed the design specification.
991 2015-11-19T19:51:54 <sipa> btcdrak: this is not an administration error. people don't know what the proposal or its intent is
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993 2015-11-19T19:52:14 <gmaxwell> btcdrak: I'm sure many people only read the
994 2015-11-19T19:52:16 <gmaxwell> BIP
995 2015-11-19T19:52:17 <btcdrak> sipa: I'll dig out the mailing list posts, it was agreed. discussed on the IRC meets too
996 2015-11-19T19:52:19 <gmaxwell> and other people only read the code.
997 2015-11-19T19:52:20 *** btc_panhandler has quit IRC
998 2015-11-19T19:52:37 <morcos> i'm not blaming anyone btw... we all want this functionality merged. and you're the only one thats even stepping up to the plate at all, so don't get me wrong
999 2015-11-19T19:52:38 <wumpus> #action look closely at BIP68 and make sure it matches the implementation #6312
1000 2015-11-19T19:52:47 <gmaxwell> and other people don't know what they agreed to. Which is part of why I was suggesting another round of gripe gathering, but that can't happen unless we think the code and bip agree.
1001 2015-11-19T19:52:50 <morcos> but i think we have to be a little bit more careful with this stuff
1002 2015-11-19T19:52:55 <gmaxwell> wumpus: ya. thanks.
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1005 2015-11-19T19:53:37 <petertodd> fwiw, I'm going to be doing some python demo's of CSV functionality, which will help get clarity that it all works as expected
1006 2015-11-19T19:53:44 <gmaxwell> Currently I don't know the actual behavior, I stopped looking when it kept changing. (Though I doubt I have an opinion about those details if they've already satisfied multiple people)
1007 2015-11-19T19:53:51 <jonasschnelli> petertodd: +1!
1008 2015-11-19T19:53:53 <gmaxwell> petertodd: that will help.
1009 2015-11-19T19:53:57 <jgarzik> yep
1010 2015-11-19T19:53:59 <morcos> i'll try to go back and see what the last thing maaku and i discussed on IRC is, and hopefully that matches the code
1011 2015-11-19T19:54:10 <wumpus> good idea petertodd
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1013 2015-11-19T19:54:22 <petertodd> wumpus: btcdrak's idea :)
1014 2015-11-19T19:54:40 <jgarzik> 330 seconds left
1015 2015-11-19T19:54:47 <gmaxwell> Do we have any versionbits things to discuss? I prodded for some start time (due to BIP65 expirence), and progress was made
1016 2015-11-19T19:54:52 <jtimon> suggested topic: optin RBF
1017 2015-11-19T19:55:15 <gmaxwell> Is there anything left to say on optin RBF? I think it's mostly just code pipeline right now.
1018 2015-11-19T19:55:34 <petertodd> jtimon: not much to say there other than I posted a think to the dev list announcing it and got no responses
1019 2015-11-19T19:55:34 <jtimon> gmaxwell: fair enough
1020 2015-11-19T19:55:46 <gavinand1esen> are any wallet devs onboard with optin RBF? Any actively participating in specâing ?
1021 2015-11-19T19:55:50 <gmaxwell> We were GO last week on it, Rusty was confused about the condition and suggested some description change.
1022 2015-11-19T19:56:01 <gmaxwell> gavinand1esen: yes, see the pull req.
1023 2015-11-19T19:56:08 <wumpus> #topic optin RBF
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1025 2015-11-19T19:56:20 <jtimon> yea, I was more like asking what was missing for it to get merged?
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1028 2015-11-19T19:56:28 <jtimon> more review maybe?
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1030 2015-11-19T19:56:35 <gmaxwell> Greenaddress is all over it, and I believe we intend to support replacement in core once its deployed.
1031 2015-11-19T19:56:58 <gmaxwell> Greenaddress I think also did FSS RBF support before or was working on it, but found it not very useful.
1032 2015-11-19T19:57:04 <petertodd> jtimon: mostly it has concept or utACKs; another full ACK would be nice
1033 2015-11-19T19:57:17 <sipa> i haven't looked at the code yet; i will
1034 2015-11-19T19:57:21 <petertodd> sipa: thanks!
1035 2015-11-19T19:57:36 <wumpus> #action #6871 (nSequence-based Full-RBF opt-in) needs more review and testing
1036 2015-11-19T19:57:46 <sipa> (though upcoming mempool changes may cause it to need rebase, and simplify?)
1037 2015-11-19T19:57:49 <petertodd> https://github.com/petertodd/replace-by-fee-tools#incremental-send-many <- testing tools
1038 2015-11-19T19:58:01 <jtimon> sipa or viceversa?
1039 2015-11-19T19:58:19 <sipa> jtimon: removing priority should only simplify things i think :)
1040 2015-11-19T19:58:20 <wumpus> although I think it looks pretty well already
1041 2015-11-19T19:58:27 <petertodd> sipa: why would it simplify? it's independent of priority
1042 2015-11-19T19:58:32 <jtimon> sipa: sure
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1044 2015-11-19T19:58:43 <sipa> petertodd: i added a question mark
1045 2015-11-19T19:58:51 <sipa> jtimon: oh, but nvm, only wallet
1046 2015-11-19T19:58:53 <jtimon> sipa: just no need to plan what comes first
1047 2015-11-19T19:59:02 <sdaftuar> sipa: i'm not aware of anything coming up that would affect it fwiw
1048 2015-11-19T19:59:09 <sipa> sdaftuar: ok!
1049 2015-11-19T19:59:13 <sipa> that's good to know
1050 2015-11-19T20:00:01 <sipa> *BANG*
1051 2015-11-19T20:00:04 <sdaftuar> er. i might have spoken too soon.
1052 2015-11-19T20:00:11 <sipa> too late
1053 2015-11-19T20:00:12 <gmaxwell> #doommeeting
1054 2015-11-19T20:00:17 <jonasschnelli> logo
1055 2015-11-19T20:00:20 <jonasschnelli> lol
1056 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1057 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 19 20:00:23 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1058 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-19-19.00.html
1059 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-19-19.00.txt
1060 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-19-19.00.log.html
1061 2015-11-19T20:00:23 <gmaxwell> #rollcredits
1062 2015-11-19T20:00:25 <sdaftuar> petertodd: can you take a look at 7062?
1063 2015-11-19T20:00:47 <petertodd> sdaftuar: sure
1064 2015-11-19T20:00:53 <jtimon> sipa: so what were you worried #6068 would affect?
1065 2015-11-19T20:01:46 <sipa> jtimon: RBF, for example; that doesn't fit in that design
1066 2015-11-19T20:02:11 <sdaftuar> petertodd: i need to re-review RBF but maybe it should use the GetModifiedFee() stuff I'm adding in 7062
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1068 2015-11-19T20:02:14 <jtimon> sipa: I'm pretty sure the rebase will be trivial
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1070 2015-11-19T20:02:40 <jtimon> what design?
1071 2015-11-19T20:02:43 <petertodd> sdaftuar: what does GetModifiedFee() do?
1072 2015-11-19T20:02:54 <sdaftuar> it takes into account any fee delta created using prioritisetransaction
1073 2015-11-19T20:03:10 <btcdrak> re sequence numbers, the last change to the specification was this, requested by morcos and agreed by maaku https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011552.html
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1076 2015-11-19T20:03:46 <jtimon> sipa: #6871 and #6068 hardly affect each other
1077 2015-11-19T20:03:50 <sdaftuar> the idea was to make the eviction code match miner policy
1078 2015-11-19T20:04:14 <petertodd> sdaftuar: ah, yeah, that'd be good to use
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1086 2015-11-19T20:07:33 <sdaftuar> well, i'd be happy to fix up 7062 to update the function calls, i don't really think it should hold up merging 6871 (which has obviously gotten more review than the pull i just opened today)
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1089 2015-11-19T20:13:16 <morcos> sipa: btcdrak: see http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/10/15 starting at 16:54 for discussion on the latest change to BIP 68
1090 2015-11-19T20:14:02 <morcos> That was where maaku proposed using bit 23 for the seconds flag. I didn't reread the whole discussion yet, but I believe it was my opinion at the time that any further discussion over bit locations was bikeshedding
1091 2015-11-19T20:15:08 <morcos> so i have no reason to believe that the code isn't the spec that i thought made sense, but i haven't reviewed it yet, and the BIP is very out of date. i think it makes sense to make the BIP what we want it to be and have everyone agree on that before we can merge policy
1092 2015-11-19T20:16:18 <morcos> I think the BIP should include some reasoning about how future soft forks both within and without the BIP 68 paradigm would use the unused bits
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1094 2015-11-19T20:17:03 <morcos> maaku and I both got confused earlier in the process about whether things like increasing or decreasing granularity could be soft forks...
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1096 2015-11-19T20:20:53 <morcos> btcdrak: that irc conversation should give you some good material for the logic behind the choices for the BIP
1097 2015-11-19T20:22:21 <btcdrak> morcos: I'll re-read it, my mind is a blank atm :)
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1154 2015-11-19T22:07:14 <Abstrct> Has anybody come across a practical limit to transaction size that they don't bother trying to broadcast? would a 130kB tx with a plentiful miner fee have any issues getting confirmed?
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1160 2015-11-19T22:14:38 <Prattler> Abstrct
1161 2015-11-19T22:14:39 <Prattler> static const unsigned int MAX_STANDARD_TX_SIZE = 100000;
1162 2015-11-19T22:14:54 <Prattler> /** The maximum size for transactions we're willing to relay/mine */
1163 2015-11-19T22:15:02 <Prattler> that's the standard bitcoin-core client
1164 2015-11-19T22:15:12 <Prattler> so most full nodes wouldn't relay tx over 100k
1165 2015-11-19T22:15:19 <Prattler> 100 kB
1166 2015-11-19T22:15:22 <Abstrct> perfect
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1168 2015-11-19T22:16:49 <Abstrct> Thanks for the prompt/accurate answer!
1169 2015-11-19T22:17:11 <Prattler> glad to help :)
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