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119 2015-11-24T05:07:22 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: I think it would be a good idea to merge #245. Regardless of whether the spec is perfected or not, the PR does represent the current implementation and is less confusing for people who might read the wrong version.
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218 2015-11-24T08:04:31 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: Example: for the hardware wallet Im working on, i could use a function where I can pass a script template with pubkeys and keypath (for the one that are controlled by the HWW).
219 2015-11-24T08:05:29 <CodeShark> you can insert literal keys into a template (the pubkeys are not templated)
220 2015-11-24T08:05:42 <jonasschnelli> Example: i have a 2of3 ms input. I'd like to my ms signature. So i need to build the redeem script. The HWW does not derive pubkeys from the other participants, ... so having a pubkey (33bytes comp.) instead of a keypath could make sense?
221 2015-11-24T08:05:54 <jonasschnelli> okay.
222 2015-11-24T08:06:46 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: and your bip does not cover how to pass around partial signed transactions? (IMO this is another things that should have a bip).
223 2015-11-24T08:06:59 <CodeShark> right, I decided to limit the scope of this BIP
224 2015-11-24T08:07:09 <CodeShark> there are a few other problems that also need solving for a complete system
225 2015-11-24T08:07:26 <jonasschnelli> Assumption: i have a partical signed inputs (multisig), ... what standard would be there to pass on the signatures to the next signer.
226 2015-11-24T08:07:49 <CodeShark> right - and given what sipa's been working on, that might change
227 2015-11-24T08:07:55 <jonasschnelli> I need to take a look in how bitcoin-cores rawtransaction handles that.
228 2015-11-24T08:08:06 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: what is he working on?
229 2015-11-24T08:08:33 <CodeShark> for my stuff I've been using empty placeholders for signatures...but I think gmaxwell and sipa have come up with something better
230 2015-11-24T08:08:42 <CodeShark> with segregated witness
231 2015-11-24T08:09:16 <CodeShark> sipa wants to use an input vector containing arbitrary data
232 2015-11-24T08:10:05 <CodeShark> so that would effectively treat input fields separately from the redeemscript
233 2015-11-24T08:10:07 <jonasschnelli> Indeed. A vector/map with arbitrary data would be nice.
234 2015-11-24T08:11:26 <CodeShark> SW has a significant impact in the way signatures are passed around
235 2015-11-24T08:12:14 <CodeShark> in my stuff, I've also been using an internal "normalized hash" where I use empty placeholders for all signatures and hash the unsigned transaction
236 2015-11-24T08:12:34 <CodeShark> with SW, this issue goes away
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238 2015-11-24T08:14:18 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: SW?
239 2015-11-24T08:14:42 <CodeShark> segregated witness, although I've been considering calling it "green monkey" since to most people the name is about as descriptive and it lends itself to cooler branding and logos :p
240 2015-11-24T08:16:21 <CodeShark> you're familiar with the concept, yes?
241 2015-11-24T08:16:25 <aj> CodeShark: "confidential informant" would almost work :)
242 2015-11-24T08:16:36 <CodeShark> almost :)
243 2015-11-24T08:16:47 <btcdrak> snitch
244 2015-11-24T08:18:57 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: I think that the stuff that sipa has implemented for Alpha? https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements/commit/663e9bd32965008a43a08d1d26ea09cbb14e83aa?
245 2015-11-24T08:19:15 <CodeShark> yes, sorta - except Luke-Jr figured out how to make it a soft fork in bitcoin
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247 2015-11-24T08:19:34 <CodeShark> so now it actually looks viable :)
248 2015-11-24T08:19:36 <aj> btcdrak: with the quidditch p2p message allowing you to catch the snitch?
249 2015-11-24T08:20:17 <CodeShark> so chances are the actual implementation will differ markedly from what sipa did in elements alpha
250 2015-11-24T08:21:02 <aj> CodeShark, jonasschnelli: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/segwit is the soft forked segwit code i think?
251 2015-11-24T08:21:03 <gmaxwell> aj: no, you subponea the witness. :P darn you people and your neologisms.
252 2015-11-24T08:21:08 <btcdrak> aj: yes, but we have to be careful of House Slytherin, they might plan an attack.
253 2015-11-24T08:21:38 <aj> btcdrak: can we call miners Hash Eaters then?
254 2015-11-24T08:21:45 <CodeShark> aj: yes
255 2015-11-24T08:22:03 <btcdrak> CodeShark: has it been legalised in all states yet?
256 2015-11-24T08:22:11 <CodeShark> we will make it legal :)
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259 2015-11-24T08:29:44 <btcdrak> CodeShak: does that require a soft fork or a hard fork?
260 2015-11-24T08:33:35 <CodeShark> making it legal? :)
261 2015-11-24T08:33:35 <CodeShark> lol
262 2015-11-24T08:33:54 <CodeShark> hard forks are easy - it's merging that's a bitch
263 2015-11-24T08:34:43 <CodeShark> divide and conquer :)
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265 2015-11-24T08:36:06 <CodeShark> there's also slushforks ;)
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267 2015-11-24T08:36:18 <CodeShark> where SPV clients can't tell which chain is legit
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318 2015-11-24T10:39:18 <btcdrak> For anyone not subscribed to the bitcoin-dev ML, I posted "Alternative name for CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY (BIP112)" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011801.html
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321 2015-11-24T10:45:42 <aj> btcdrak: woo, bikeshed thread!
322 2015-11-24T10:46:36 <btcdrak> heh.
323 2015-11-24T10:47:49 <aj> btcdrak: i like delay vs timeout personally; so OP_CHECK_DELAY_VERIFY i guess...
324 2015-11-24T10:48:27 <moa> bounties for winning Op_CODE names could be a great distraction from that 'other' bike shed topic though
325 2015-11-24T10:48:32 <btcdrak> aj: anything non generic will do for me
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327 2015-11-24T10:49:17 <aj> btcdrak: do you think mempool-only bip68 has met all the objections now? guess it's deferred to 0.12.1 though...
328 2015-11-24T10:50:30 <btcdrak> aj: the softfork was always going to be deferred till post 0.12 but the mempool policy can and should be merged now-ish.
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330 2015-11-24T10:53:28 <btcdrak> aj: i do believe the specification is settled. amusingly petertodd read the old spec found some issued and reinvented the new spec which was agreed in October... so i think that may be a good sign.
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332 2015-11-24T10:53:53 <aj> btcdrak: yeah, saw that; does seem +ve
333 2015-11-24T10:56:01 *** melvster has joined #bitcoin-dev
334 2015-11-24T10:57:49 <sipa> btcdrak: OP_RELATIVE_HODL ?
335 2015-11-24T10:58:12 <btcdrak> sipa: yay!
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343 2015-11-24T11:16:55 <moa> OP_RLTVHODL
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345 2015-11-24T11:23:34 <CodeShark> OP_NOP3_PSYCHE_FOOLED_YA
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368 2015-11-24T12:19:59 <btcdrak> OP_ALLYOURCOINSBELONGTOME
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380 2015-11-24T12:48:45 <wachub> Hi.. has anyone looked into a decentralized bitcoin/fiat currency exchange, with peer to peer participants , and a trust system backing it....
381 2015-11-24T12:51:00 <phantomcircuit> wachub, #bitcoin
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435 2015-11-24T15:09:46 <jtimon> cfields_: please tell me up to which commit https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7091 makes sense to you (this is related to what we talked about the other day)
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437 2015-11-24T15:13:01 <jtimon> CodeShark: I remember you saying that libconsensus doesn't exist yet. It's incomplete but it does exist: #7091 makes it much more clear
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440 2015-11-24T15:19:26 <nickler> Did someone already publish code to benchmark blocks that take a long time to validate (f.e. due many checkopsigs, c.f. "A transaction that takes at least 3 minutes to validate")?
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476 2015-11-24T16:44:11 <gavinandresen> nickler: run with -debug=bench and you'll get timing info in debug.log.
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480 2015-11-24T16:57:57 <nickler> gavinandresen: So in regtest mode I would create a 955kb tx that executes many checksigs, then mine it with 'generate' and record the -bench ConnectBlock duration.
481 2015-11-24T16:58:58 <gavinandresen> nickler: yup, that would work. You could save the blockchain and use invalidateblock/reconsiderblock to re-run the benchmark....
482 2015-11-24T16:59:46 <sipa> yeah, though that wouldn't flush the signature cache (if the signature validation is something you want to include in the benchmark)
483 2015-11-24T17:00:15 <gavinandresen> nickler: git HEAD also has a src/benchmark/ framework that I wrote, but a some of the code you want to benchmark relies on global state so writing benchmarks isn't as easy as it should be.
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486 2015-11-24T17:02:22 <gavinandresen> Yes, depending if you do or don't want the signature cache to be warm you'd need to either sendrawtransaction all the transactions first (if you want them in the cache) or invalidateblock, shutdown, restart, then reconsiderblock. I think....
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488 2015-11-24T17:03:59 <nickler> so the signature cache is not saved to disk?
489 2015-11-24T17:04:17 <sipa> nickler: no, it's in memory only, and uses random eviction
490 2015-11-24T17:04:49 <sipa> nickler: also, the signature cache is only a replacement for actual ECDSA verification; sighash computation is not cached
491 2015-11-24T17:05:35 <nickler> I want to research the worst-case so I'll try the invalidate and restart method
492 2015-11-24T17:05:54 <sipa> nickler: i can write a very simple patch for you to invalidate the sigcache if you need it
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495 2015-11-24T17:06:32 <gavinandresen> ... can also run with a very small signature cache, right?
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497 2015-11-24T17:06:53 <sipa> gavinandresen: true!
498 2015-11-24T17:06:54 <nickler> sipa: I'd prefer not to modify bitcoind
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500 2015-11-24T17:07:15 <sipa> gavinandresen: though that may negatively impact performance in other areas too
501 2015-11-24T17:07:35 <phantomcircuit> nickler, many OP_CHECKSIG ops is not worst case actually
502 2015-11-24T17:07:44 <sipa> nickler: by adding a separate RPC to wipe the sigcache?
503 2015-11-24T17:07:56 <nickler> sipa: by restarting?
504 2015-11-24T17:08:09 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: what IS the worst case?
505 2015-11-24T17:08:32 <nickler> phantomcircuit: OP_CHECKMULTISIG 1/20 ?
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507 2015-11-24T17:08:48 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, the one with the CVE
508 2015-11-24T17:09:03 <phantomcircuit> by a huge margin
509 2015-11-24T17:09:10 <phantomcircuit> CVE-2013-2292
510 2015-11-24T17:10:37 <gavinandresen> phantomcircuit: that IS many OP_CHECKSIGs....
511 2015-11-24T17:10:49 <nickler> "bitcoind and Bitcoin-Qt 0.8.0 and earlier allow remote attackers to cause a denial of service (electricity consumption) by mining a block to create a nonstandard Bitcoin transaction containing multiple OP_CHECKSIG script opcodes."
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513 2015-11-24T17:12:24 <phantomcircuit> gavinandresen, yeah if you use multisig you can get more hashing into a single tx
514 2015-11-24T17:12:54 <gavinandresen> Speaking of CVE-2013-2292... the thread on bitcoin-dev talking about mitigating validation cost went nowhere. Does nobody have an opinion, are people keeping their opinions quiet so they have something to say in Hong Kong?
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517 2015-11-24T17:17:09 <nickler> If you mean the 'validation-cost metric' thread, I am currently working with maaku and instagibbs on the talk. If anyone has a suggestion we would definitely like to hear it.
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520 2015-11-24T17:18:12 <phantomcircuit> nickler, he's not
521 2015-11-24T17:18:29 <phantomcircuit> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-July/009494.html
522 2015-11-24T17:18:58 <gavinandresen> No, I'm talking about the thread started by maaku that I replied to.
523 2015-11-24T17:19:34 <instagibbs> there were two threads, I think.
524 2015-11-24T17:20:26 <gavinandresen> This thread: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011662.html
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527 2015-11-24T17:22:53 <gavinandresen> .... crickets ....
528 2015-11-24T17:23:58 <sipa> gavinandresen: sorry, i'm no longer on the mailinglist
529 2015-11-24T17:28:55 <gavinandresen> nickler : my current thinking is the benefits of having separate caps on UTXO growth, CPU, and bandwidth outweigh the problems, but if you have a single cost metric scheme that makes sense my mind could easily be changed.
530 2015-11-24T17:29:17 <gavinandresen> nickler: "it is hard, so lets do nothing" is NOT a good answer, in my opinion.
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532 2015-11-24T17:30:11 <gavinandresen> e.g. see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7081 for Yet Another Band-Aid patch ....
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534 2015-11-24T17:31:20 <kanzure> gavinandresen: there's definitely one or two talks about better ways to calculate the cost of validation, probably includes mitigation mentions (bug maaku)
535 2015-11-24T17:32:39 <instagibbs> I doubt there is one metric to Rule Them All, unfortunately.
536 2015-11-24T17:32:53 <sipa> i don't think there can be one
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538 2015-11-24T17:33:54 <sipa> as the relative costs of I/O bandwidth, signature validation, hashing, ... will change over time and across hardware platforms
539 2015-11-24T17:34:01 <jl2012> different technology grows in different rate, so it doesn't make sense to have one metric
540 2015-11-24T17:34:04 <gavinandresen> My full thoughts were in reply to maaku: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011663.html
541 2015-11-24T17:34:27 <sipa> but i don't think it's hard to create a metric that encourages good behaviour over bad behaviour
542 2015-11-24T17:34:37 <instagibbs> jl2012, the GROWTH of the cap clearly won't be consistent, no
543 2015-11-24T17:35:22 <instagibbs> I'd treat any sort of growth thing as separate. We will probably be way off one way or another even in the one dimensional bandwidth case
544 2015-11-24T17:36:49 <gavinandresen> We're talking caps, so we can be off by a factor of two or three for a while and nothing horrible will happen.
545 2015-11-24T17:39:04 <instagibbs> Bounding worst-case behavior is the goal, so as long as that cap isn't too far off, yeah.
546 2015-11-24T17:39:13 <gavinandresen> yup
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548 2015-11-24T17:40:41 <gavinandresen> I'd like to find a way to rationally discuss how to pick a reasonable cap-- I've proposed "pick some arbitrary, commonly-available, recent hardware and then benchmark" -- but I've got to go right now, and those conversations always seem to lead to bad places for some reason I can't fathom.....
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553 2015-11-24T17:47:04 <kanzure> "OP_CHECKWILDCARDSIGVERIFY or "Wildcard Inputs"" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011805.html
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727 2015-11-24T23:13:30 <Lightsword> PR#7087 is an option that miners should run to disconnect SPV clients right?
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740 2015-11-24T23:38:11 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, yes
741 2015-11-24T23:38:47 <phantomcircuit> the entire bloom filter thing is a disaster
742 2015-11-24T23:39:04 <Lightsword> yeah
743 2015-11-24T23:39:04 <phantomcircuit> they are useful for a bunch of the mru set stuff though :)
744 2015-11-24T23:39:39 <Lightsword> mru set?
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746 2015-11-24T23:44:29 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, most recently used
747 2015-11-24T23:44:51 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, things like "have i recently rejected this transaction from the mempool? yes -> great i wont request it again"
748 2015-11-24T23:45:13 <Lightsword> ah
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750 2015-11-24T23:46:21 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, is there a planned replacement for bloom filters for SPV wallets?
751 2015-11-24T23:47:01 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, a replacement was suggested by op_mul which is strictly superior but nobody has actually implemented it yet
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753 2015-11-24T23:47:26 <phantomcircuit> i dont think it would be too hard, but it requires storing a bunch more data
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755 2015-11-24T23:47:34 <phantomcircuit> (although maybe not that much more data)
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757 2015-11-24T23:47:59 <Lightsword> any writeup on it?
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