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 617 2015-11-26T16:51:27  <dermoth> Hi there... I'm wondering why bitcoin devs aren't cross-signing their release keys
 618 2015-11-26T16:53:04  <dermoth> Bitcoin 11.2 is signed with yet another key... I trust the old keys release keys but they haven't signed the new key, so I cannot know if the new key can be trusted or not (and since it came form the same place as the release, there is no point in checking a signature as anyone replacing the binary could have replaced the key too)
 619 2015-11-26T16:53:25  <sipa> wumpus: ^
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 623 2015-11-26T16:56:30  <jonasschnelli> dermoth: do you talk about https://bitcoin.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.11.2/SHA256SUMS.asc?
 624 2015-11-26T16:56:44  <jonasschnelli> or do you mean the windows or osx code signature?
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 626 2015-11-26T16:57:24  <jonasschnelli> a quick check told me that https://bitcoin.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.11.2/ used the same key then https://bitcoin.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.11.0
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 628 2015-11-26T17:01:30  <dermoth> jonasschnelli, yes, and two other keys for previous releases...
 629 2015-11-26T17:01:46  <dermoth> I'm still running 10.2, and besides I might have verified it using Armory
 630 2015-11-26T17:02:33  <sipa> dermoth: you may be interested in the gitian signatures, which is generally a stronger mechanism
 631 2015-11-26T17:02:51  <sipa> dermoth: multiple developers there sign the hashes of the resulting binaries of a determinstic build process
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 633 2015-11-26T17:02:57  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/gitian.sigs
 634 2015-11-26T17:03:16  <sipa> so it doesn't so strongly rely on the developer who publishes the release
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 636 2015-11-26T17:04:33  <dermoth> yeah i've read about it, pretty interesting idea, and also offer some mitigation against infected compilers (as long as not all devs are infected anyway....)
 637 2015-11-26T17:05:29  <sipa> well you can repeat the gitian process yourself, and verify the hashes
 638 2015-11-26T17:05:41  <sipa> though it's cumbersome admittedly
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 659 2015-11-26T17:39:18  <jtimon> why server needs to be build before common?
 660 2015-11-26T17:42:55  <sipa> jonasschnelli: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commits/realconflicts
 661 2015-11-26T17:43:08  <sipa> jonasschnelli: absolutely untested, but I believe you've already done some testing work for this?
 662 2015-11-26T17:44:23  <sipa> it may need a rescan though to detect historical conflicts :(
 663 2015-11-26T17:44:53  <jonasschnelli> sipa: wow. That was quick. Maybe take my rpc mempool evict test?
 664 2015-11-26T17:45:11  <jonasschnelli> (from the now superseded pr)
 665 2015-11-26T17:45:37  <sipa> well the code doesn't look at the mempool at all anymore, so that shouldn't matter
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 667 2015-11-26T17:45:53  <sipa> sec
 668 2015-11-26T17:46:31  <jtimon> but wallet and wt can be built after server
 669 2015-11-26T17:46:38  <jtimon> s/wt/qt/
 670 2015-11-26T17:47:14  <sipa> jtimon: i would expect that the order in which libs are built is not relevant, as they don't depend on each other (only linking needs all libs)
 671 2015-11-26T17:47:53  <jtimon> sipa: I would expect the same, but https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/compare/consensus-build...jtimon:consensus-build-full
 672 2015-11-26T17:48:09  <sipa> jonasschnelli: so that commit i wrote changes the meaning of negative confirmations to mean "conflicts with a transaction that deep in the chain"
 673 2015-11-26T17:48:28  <jtimon> I mean, I will just reorder common and server first without doing anything else to confirm my suspicions
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 675 2015-11-26T17:49:01  <jonasschnelli> (Phonetyping) I'll have a look at it soon. But IIRC we need a solution that does not mark evicted tx as conflicted.
 676 2015-11-26T17:49:37  <sipa> jonasschnelli: this doesn't; evicting doesn't do anything at all, as the confirmation count becomes completely independent of the mempool
 677 2015-11-26T17:50:34  <jonasschnelli> Okay. This is nice. Then it should pass the rpc test I wrote (don't mark evicted transactions as conflicted).
 678 2015-11-26T17:50:55  <jonasschnelli> (Need to look at the code, but sucks on the phone)
 679 2015-11-26T17:51:12  <sipa> ideally, we have a test to see whether a reorg + accept of conflicting tx also marks it as negative confirm
 680 2015-11-26T17:52:23  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i think i can incorporate some of your conflicting code to get an approximation for older conflicts
 681 2015-11-26T17:52:29  <jonasschnelli> I'll can do the testing. Submit a PR when you think it is ready... I can try to create a/some rpc test(s)
 682 2015-11-26T17:53:30  <jonasschnelli> IIRC your code only detects conflicts that where originally submitted over the SyncTransaction signal?
 683 2015-11-26T17:54:20  <sipa> yes
 684 2015-11-26T17:54:34  <sipa> or reindex
 685 2015-11-26T17:54:56  * jonasschnelli needs to go afk, will answer later
 686 2015-11-26T17:55:08  <sipa> oh, no
 687 2015-11-26T17:56:43  <sipa> jtimon: oh, sorry, the order inside LDADD? that absolutely does matter: they need to be in dependency order
 688 2015-11-26T17:57:09  <sipa> jtimon: things depended upon must go later
 689 2015-11-26T17:57:16  <jtimon> sipa: but it seems to be inverse?
 690 2015-11-26T17:57:21  <jtimon> why inverse?
 691 2015-11-26T17:57:23  <sipa> jtimon: i thought you were talking about build order
 692 2015-11-26T17:57:37  <sipa> jtimon: toplevel things go first, dependencies go last
 693 2015-11-26T17:57:50  <jtimon> yes, I'm talking about build order, the server package seems to need to be built first
 694 2015-11-26T17:58:18  <jtimon> sipa: that's very counter-intuitive to me, I'm used to the opposite
 695 2015-11-26T17:58:27  <sipa> jtimon: confused; on github you're talking about the order in LDADD, not build order
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 698 2015-11-26T17:59:12  <jtimon> if you touch hash.cpp to break it, why should you build main.o before finding out?
 699 2015-11-26T17:59:23  <jtimon> what's the difference?
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 701 2015-11-26T17:59:32  <sipa> the build order shouldn't matter; the order inside ldadd does
 702 2015-11-26T18:00:04  <jtimon> their order seem to be related
 703 2015-11-26T18:00:20  <sipa> how so?
 704 2015-11-26T18:00:29  <jtimon> things that appear first in LDADD seem to be built first
 705 2015-11-26T18:00:42  <sipa> oh, right, autotools puts them in that order
 706 2015-11-26T18:01:11  <sipa> we'll need cfields_ :)
 707 2015-11-26T18:01:39  <jtimon> so why does autotools hate me? (or why do I hate autotools, not sure yet)
 708 2015-11-26T18:01:58  <jtimon> yep, I asked him first, let's wait for his answer
 709 2015-11-26T18:02:47  <jtimon> in any case that was just building-order bike-shedding that was breaking #7091, fixed now
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 711 2015-11-26T18:03:23  <sipa> jtimon: if out modularization was complete, this wouldn't be a problem, because you would only rarely touch the .h files that high-level code depends on, so changing some implementation detail in a low-level package wouldn't cause rebuilds
 712 2015-11-26T18:03:37  <sipa> jtimon: that unfortunately doesn't work with code that puts a lot in .h files
 713 2015-11-26T18:04:16  <sipa> but i see the problem now: you want it to build things in the opposite order as what you're passing to LDADD... not sure if autotools can do that
 714 2015-11-26T18:05:56  <jtimon> I repeat my expample: s/static/staticzzzzzzzzz/ in hash.cpp, wait for main.o to build to find out your typo
 715 2015-11-26T18:06:15  <jtimon> yep, exactly
 716 2015-11-26T18:06:26  <sipa> jtimon: use more cores :)
 717 2015-11-26T18:06:45  <sipa> just touching hash.cpp shouldn't cause a rebuild of main
 718 2015-11-26T18:06:51  <sipa> but touching hash.h would
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 720 2015-11-26T18:08:30  <jtimon> so I guess the question for cfields_ really is "why autotools only allows building-order bike-shedding in the opposite direction jtimon is used to see?" I belive that stupid question may have a revealing answer
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 722 2015-11-26T18:10:32  <sipa> jtimon: my guess is that it's just annoying interaction between tools: in autotools you just list the dependencies, and they go in the same order in the makefile as they go as arguments to ld (where the order is fixed)
 723 2015-11-26T18:10:46  <sipa> s/they go in/are emitted in the output/
 724 2015-11-26T18:11:12  <sipa> jtimon: how many threads do you build with?
 725 2015-11-26T18:11:27  <jtimon> sipa: good point on the more-cores, this laptop is great for travel but I should have bought a pc-computer to levearage my improved interwebs connection long ago, I'm just super-lazzy about looking for hardware pieces and stuff
 726 2015-11-26T18:12:03  <sipa> if you have enough ram you can go crank it up a bit... going higher than your cpu supports won't speed a full build up, but it will give you warning earliers
 727 2015-11-26T18:12:50  <jtimon> sipa: I'll be even able test my own PRs (and others) when I buy this many-core many-gpu-empy-slides machine...
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 730 2015-11-26T18:13:33  <jtimon> I have 2 cores and I build with 4 threads
 731 2015-11-26T18:13:59  <sipa> i have 4 core and 8 hyperthreads, and usually build with -j10 or highe
 732 2015-11-26T18:14:02  <jtimon> that's...great for travel at this nenergy consumption, but when I'm home...
 733 2015-11-26T18:14:45  <jtimon> I guess I didn't tried 4, I did tried 8
 734 2015-11-26T18:14:52  <jtimon> s/4/5
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 739 2015-11-26T18:17:51  <jtimon> I don't need a 20 core computer, but I always dreamt about having my own evolutionary neural network gpu farm at home anyway, sorry, increasingly offtopic...
 740 2015-11-26T18:18:19  <jtimon> s/always/since one day or something
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 754 2015-11-26T18:31:17  <dermoth> sipa, jonasschnelli, actually I could verify the new key using the previous one using https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/924
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 756 2015-11-26T18:31:48  <dermoth> this is as good ad a key signature, nowever the latter can be exported to keyservers and synchronizxed automatically
 757 2015-11-26T18:31:58  <dermoth> *however the latter...
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 777 2015-11-26T18:42:55  <dermoth> my bad, the keys were signed... I'm not used to the UI I'm using, I expected to see signatures below used id's :/
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 802 2015-11-26T18:59:46  <Luke-Jr> are we still having a meeting today? (American holiday)
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 808 2015-11-26T19:00:28  <jonasschnelli> I'm ready.
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 810 2015-11-26T19:00:34  <jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: Thanksgiving?
 811 2015-11-26T19:00:39  <Luke-Jr> yes
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1074 2015-11-26T19:01:58  <jonasschnelli> ^^
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1105 2015-11-26T19:05:33  <Luke-Jr> I'm going to be AFK for the next 20 mins
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1265 2015-11-26T19:11:09  <btcdrak> what a time for a netsplit!
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1338 2015-11-26T19:17:05  <btcdrak> wumpus: so no meeting today then?
1339 2015-11-26T19:17:49  <CodeShark> btcdrak: so no wumpus today then? :)
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1342 2015-11-26T19:17:53  <petertodd> btcdrak: since when do you listen to authority? :P
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1344 2015-11-26T19:18:14  <wumpus> don't let it depend on me, but there doesn't seem to be much activity no
1345 2015-11-26T19:18:47  <btcdrak> I just thought the meeting was cancelled or something. but then there was a huge netsplit so maybe that affected things. was just asking.
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1356 2015-11-26T19:22:21  <CodeShark> is there a quorum? or can we meet anyhow? :)
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1358 2015-11-26T19:22:48  <petertodd> CodeShark: I'm in a mcdonalds right now, working on increasing my influence, as measured by mass...
1359 2015-11-26T19:22:53  <petertodd> CodeShark: so yes
1360 2015-11-26T19:23:26  <CodeShark> not sure everyone else appreciates the gravity of the situation...
1361 2015-11-26T19:23:51  <petertodd> topic: CLTV... so it's plausible that we'll have CLTV activate within just a few weeks, as everyone but a few big players has aldopted it
1362 2015-11-26T19:23:58  <btcdrak> I want to ask about #6312 and #6564 again.
1363 2015-11-26T19:23:59  <petertodd> *adopted
1364 2015-11-26T19:24:29  <btcdrak> ok let's start meeting bot then
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1366 2015-11-26T19:24:34  <btcdrak> #meetingstart
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1368 2015-11-26T19:24:37  <petertodd> btcdrak: cool
1369 2015-11-26T19:24:40  <btcdrak> #startmeeting
1370 2015-11-26T19:24:40  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 26 19:24:40 2015 UTC.  The chair is btcdrak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
1371 2015-11-26T19:24:40  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
1372 2015-11-26T19:24:58  <btcdrak> #topic CLTV activation
1373 2015-11-26T19:25:06  <btcdrak> petertodd: the floor is yours
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1378 2015-11-26T19:25:17  <petertodd> right, so it's plausible that we'll have CLTV activate within just a few weeks, as everyone but a few big players has adopted it
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1385 2015-11-26T19:26:03  <petertodd> we've got about 20% of nodes running CLTV-supporting bitcoin core versions... we should do another redit/twitter/etc. push reminding people that they should upgrade to v0.11.2 / v0.10.4
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1388 2015-11-26T19:26:44  <btcdrak> Yes, I was planning to do something today but got sidetracked and forgot. Best to do on Monday/Tuesday for best coverage.
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1411 2015-11-26T19:26:55  <petertodd> btcdrak: sounds like a plan
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1436 2015-11-26T19:27:56  <CodeShark> it will be fun doing an mSIGNA release that supports CLTV :)
1437 2015-11-26T19:27:59  <Luke-Jr> petertodd: well, negative effect of not upgrading for non-miners is just degraded validation, right?
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1440 2015-11-26T19:28:15  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yes, reduced to SPV
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1443 2015-11-26T19:28:31  <Luke-Jr> k
1444 2015-11-26T19:28:38  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: we do not kick peers for sending us a now-invalid nVersion=3 blocks, so the network won't split or anything
1445 2015-11-26T19:28:39  <btcdrak> #action Post reminder about CLTV deployment next week on social media
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1457 2015-11-26T19:29:48  <btcdrak> is this topic concluded?
1458 2015-11-26T19:29:52  <petertodd> I think so
1459 2015-11-26T19:30:05  <btcdrak> ok well I have one :)
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1466 2015-11-26T19:30:13  <petertodd> shoot
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1469 2015-11-26T19:30:21  <btcdrak> #topic BIP68/BIP112 implementation
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1474 2015-11-26T19:31:12  <CodeShark> in retrospect we should have kept the nSequence semantics but still called the opcode OP_RCHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY and use the proper semantics for that ;)
1475 2015-11-26T19:31:15  <btcdrak> So reporting from last week, the BIP68 and BIP112 texts have been updated to match the implementations
1476 2015-11-26T19:31:28  <petertodd> I've done a bit of work on CSV demo's, but that's getting pushed behind scaling bitcoin conf prep: https://github.com/petertodd/csv-demos
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1479 2015-11-26T19:31:49  <petertodd> btcdrak: yeah, new texts look better
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1481 2015-11-26T19:31:56  <btcdrak> I would like to note the implementations are as agreed back in October. The BIP texts have has some peer review and received ACKs.
1482 2015-11-26T19:32:00  <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: never too late to rename..
1483 2015-11-26T19:32:13  <btcdrak> #link BIP68 text https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/245
1484 2015-11-26T19:32:27  <btcdrak> #link BIP112 text https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/248
1485 2015-11-26T19:32:30  <petertodd> I vote we let btcdrak pick a new bikeshed color^H^H^H new name
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1487 2015-11-26T19:32:48  <CodeShark> lol
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1489 2015-11-26T19:33:14  <btcdrak> Regarding the implementations PRs #6312 (BIP68) and #6564 (CSV opcode BIP112), these are up to date and ready. They have also received a number of ACKs
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1492 2015-11-26T19:33:48  <btcdrak> I posted to the list about renaming OP_CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY
1493 2015-11-26T19:33:50  <petertodd> btcdrak: I'm definitely holding off an ACK until I've seen some worked out demos of CSV functionality
1494 2015-11-26T19:33:51  <btcdrak> #link http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011801.html
1495 2015-11-26T19:34:41  <CodeShark> yeah, the only thing that is holding me back from ACKing is that I haven't actually tried constructing CSV transactions
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1502 2015-11-26T19:35:29  <btcdrak> I believe these PRs should be merged soon. For the avoidance of doubt, these are mempool-only implementations, with no softfork deployment code. That should be added later when we are ready to deploy
1503 2015-11-26T19:35:37  <petertodd> it's worth noting that if it were easier to add fields to transactions, this whole review process would be much easier
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1512 2015-11-26T19:35:58  <sipa> petertodd: working on it!
1513 2015-11-26T19:35:59  <CodeShark> :)
1514 2015-11-26T19:35:59  <CodeShark> segwit might fix that, PT
1515 2015-11-26T19:36:11  <Luke-Jr> sipa: hah, I was thinking just that
1516 2015-11-26T19:36:14  <petertodd> sipa: yes, I was thinking about segwit when I said that :)
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1518 2015-11-26T19:36:41  <CodeShark> in the end it might turn out that we don't even need the nSequence field ;)
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1520 2015-11-26T19:36:47  <petertodd> sipa: though if I understood your code, you haven't yet made tx hashing be oer a tree yet
1521 2015-11-26T19:36:56  <btcdrak> So we can never have enough review, I can never say the PRs are ready, but, since there has been a lot of ACKs and we're not merging a consensus change, I really want to ask for #6312 and #6564 to get merged
1522 2015-11-26T19:36:59  <sipa> petertodd: i changed that
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1524 2015-11-26T19:37:13  <sipa> petertodd: though it's still broken
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1526 2015-11-26T19:37:29  <btcdrak> So that's my monologue done.
1527 2015-11-26T19:37:41  <petertodd> btcdrak: so, I'd suggest you write out in the pull-req what exactly is your plan for handling a change to the rules after it's merged - in a dev branch I don't think that's a big deal, but if we release a mempool-only version that can be ugly
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1530 2015-11-26T19:38:21  <petertodd> btcdrak: merging after v0.12.0 is forked off would be safest
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1536 2015-11-26T19:38:40  <petertodd> btcdrak: IIRC that's supposed to happen in about a week or so
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1560 2015-11-26T19:39:08  <btcdrak> petertodd: OK. I'm pretty confident we're not changing the rules, BIP68 has been in the bike-shed long enough and pretty much everyone's requests have been incorporated.
1561 2015-11-26T19:39:08  <petertodd> sipa: we should talk at scaling bitcoin about this; I've done a lot of thinking re: this stuff for my proofchains work
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1565 2015-11-26T19:39:30  <sipa> petertodd: sure
1566 2015-11-26T19:39:49  <CodeShark> I actually am presenting on extensibility using segwit
1567 2015-11-26T19:39:55  <btcdrak> I would be happy with it being merged right after 0.12 is branched off. But it really needs to get merged... I cant insist enough
1568 2015-11-26T19:39:56  <CodeShark> although it is not in the program yett
1569 2015-11-26T19:39:58  <petertodd> btcdrak: but I asked for the bikeshed to be painted the color of an eldritch horror!
1570 2015-11-26T19:40:14  <petertodd> CodeShark: cool!
1571 2015-11-26T19:40:29  <petertodd> CodeShark: send me what you have; may be relevant to my presentation
1572 2015-11-26T19:40:36  <btcdrak> I certainly do want to change the name of the opcode, but that's an easy change
1573 2015-11-26T19:41:02  <btcdrak> wumpus: sipa: gmaxwell: coments/thoughts?
1574 2015-11-26T19:41:15  <sipa> btcdrak: i disagree with the need to be merged... at this point we have to wait anyway
1575 2015-11-26T19:41:34  <CodeShark> PT: sure - as soon as I have something ;)
1576 2015-11-26T19:41:38  <sipa> btcdrak: not saying that it shouldn't, and i understand that waiting and rebasing is annoying
1577 2015-11-26T19:41:39  <petertodd> btcdrak: next rebase is on me :)
1578 2015-11-26T19:41:43  <btcdrak> sipa: with all due respect it's almost 6 months. it's getting painful.
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1583 2015-11-26T19:42:15  <petertodd> btcdrak: hey, CLTV took a year, two if you count from the initial implementation
1584 2015-11-26T19:42:16  <sipa> btcdrak: i completely understand that, but that is not a reason... i have a feeling people only recently started actually looking into it seriously
1585 2015-11-26T19:42:24  <petertodd> sipa: agreed :(
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1587 2015-11-26T19:43:01  <petertodd> anyway the remarkable speed that CLTV is being adopted makes me worry less about getting CSV ready in time for things that might use it
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1589 2015-11-26T19:43:20  <btcdrak> sipa: fair enough. Can the BIP texts get merged. They are an accurate representation of the current implementations and it's already confused a couple of people who read the version in master not realising it was an old version.
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1593 2015-11-26T19:43:33  <petertodd> btcdrak: +1 on merging BIP texts
1594 2015-11-26T19:43:44  <sipa> btcdrak: no reason why the bip texts can't be merged
1595 2015-11-26T19:43:50  <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: BIP changes should be merged as soon as the author(s) ACK them
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1597 2015-11-26T19:44:03  <btcdrak> even if there are minor amendments to make to the BIP texts it's a heck of a lot better than the current status
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1599 2015-11-26T19:44:10  <Luke-Jr> remind me when I get home tonight if that's the case
1600 2015-11-26T19:44:15  <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: I am the author of BIP112
1601 2015-11-26T19:44:17  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: oh, all authors? we should make that clear in the instructions
1602 2015-11-26T19:44:35  <Luke-Jr> petertodd: AFAIK just one
1603 2015-11-26T19:44:44  <btcdrak> and really maaku has handed over the proposals to me so it is not reasonable to expect him to ACK BIP68
1604 2015-11-26T19:44:51  <Luke-Jr> but clarifying it would be nice
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1606 2015-11-26T19:45:09  <CodeShark> btcdrak: can you rebase your BIP112 PR?
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1608 2015-11-26T19:45:57  <btcdrak> CodeShark: to what, they all show as mergeable
1609 2015-11-26T19:46:22  <CodeShark> I guess it's mergeable - but we merged in something recently
1610 2015-11-26T19:46:22  <petertodd> you know, a better procedure for draft BIP's might be to have a placeholder link in bitcoin/bips pointing to the authors' presonal repo...
1611 2015-11-26T19:46:26  <btcdrak> #action Merge BIPs PRs #245 and #248
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1616 2015-11-26T19:47:00  <Luke-Jr> CodeShark: rebasing for no reason whatsoever is just annoying :/
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1618 2015-11-26T19:47:17  <CodeShark> ok, I see there are no conflicts
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1621 2015-11-26T19:47:35  <CodeShark> btcdrak: specifically, I changed a couple things in the Retroactive Invalidation section that got merged but it does not conflict with your PR
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1624 2015-11-26T19:48:03  <btcdrak> sipa: in your view, what remains for the implementations to get merged?
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1627 2015-11-26T19:49:46  <btcdrak> ### 10 minutes left. are there any other topic suggestions?
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1630 2015-11-26T19:50:01  <petertodd> btcdrak: rbf
1631 2015-11-26T19:50:28  <btcdrak> ok then let's end this topic
1632 2015-11-26T19:50:32  <btcdrak> #topic RBF
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1635 2015-11-26T19:50:57  <btcdrak> petertodd: please go ahead
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1637 2015-11-26T19:51:00  <petertodd> so, I've been running RBF nodes with the mempool limiter turned way down to stress test... and no issues reported
1638 2015-11-26T19:51:04  <CodeShark> anyone have a topic that pays a higher fee? :)
1639 2015-11-26T19:51:13  <petertodd> CodeShark: lol
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1641 2015-11-26T19:51:31  <Luke-Jr> this fee is too low, I'm leaving early!
1642 2015-11-26T19:51:34  *** sword_smith_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1643 2015-11-26T19:51:34  <Luke-Jr> :P
1644 2015-11-26T19:51:50  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: here's a (non)-alcoholic beverage of your choice
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1646 2015-11-26T19:52:40  <Luke-Jr> petertodd: is the current PR easy to merge FSS and full-unconditional on top of as options?
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1658 2015-11-26T19:52:54  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: sure is, and I invite people to do exacty that
1659 2015-11-26T19:53:29  <sipa> petertodd: sorry, haven't reviewed it... we have a bit of more urgent changes to make still
1660 2015-11-26T19:53:30  <CodeShark> I haven't had a chance to review your stuff yet, petertodd, but strongly support the effort ;)
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1664 2015-11-26T19:53:59  <petertodd> cool, reviews so this can get into v0.12.0 much appreciated...
1665 2015-11-26T19:54:03  <btcdrak> RBF is another PR which seems to have a ton of support and ACKs iirc.
1666 2015-11-26T19:54:17  <petertodd> btcdrak: note, concept acks and utacks, not much full acks
1667 2015-11-26T19:54:18  <jtimon> btcdrak: totally agree on bip68, if it's going to survive longer as unmerged we should condider separate releases ala eternal petertodd's RBF instead of just an eternal PR
1668 2015-11-26T19:54:49  <petertodd> jtimon: rbf works as a separate release, bip68 doesn't
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1670 2015-11-26T19:55:33  <Luke-Jr> it would be nice if bitcoin.org and similar sites were designed to convey multiple Core-based branches/releases
1671 2015-11-26T19:55:36  <btcdrak> iirc from the previous meetings RBF is scheduled for 0.12 anyhow.
1672 2015-11-26T19:55:40  <btcdrak> any action points petertodd?
1673 2015-11-26T19:55:56  <btcdrak> ### 5 minutes remaining
1674 2015-11-26T19:55:57  <jtimon> petertodd: it could be implemented, I'm just pointing out how unfortunate would be to require that unnecesary additional work
1675 2015-11-26T19:55:59  <petertodd> #action another one or two ACKS on opt-in RBF
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1677 2015-11-26T19:56:23  <btcdrak> what's the PR link again?
1678 2015-11-26T19:56:30  <petertodd> btcdrak: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6871
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1692 2015-11-26T19:56:48  <jtimon> petertodd: I always celebrated all RBF releases, and at the same time lament them
1693 2015-11-26T19:56:49  <btcdrak> #action test and ACK RBF https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6871
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1696 2015-11-26T19:57:30  <petertodd> jtimon: separate RBF releases do help make the point that the Bitcoin Core devs do not have absolute control of Bitcoin
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1707 2015-11-26T19:58:05  <Luke-Jr> ^ moving away from a single master branch would make that point better
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1709 2015-11-26T19:58:26  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: we did that already, github.com/bitcoin and github.com/bitcoinxt :)
1710 2015-11-26T19:58:27  <Luke-Jr> but that will take some changes to be practical long-term
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1712 2015-11-26T19:58:40  <Luke-Jr> petertodd: the latter isn't Bitcoin so not really
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1714 2015-11-26T19:58:59  <Luke-Jr> petertodd: LJR is a better example there, but suffers from the rebase-abuse issue ;P
1715 2015-11-26T19:59:08  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: yeah, it's a pity that had to happen with a protocol change too, confuses the issue
1716 2015-11-26T19:59:14  <btcdrak> inb4 everyone shills their own fork btcdrak addrindex fork for example...
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1718 2015-11-26T19:59:58  <jtimon> petertodd: absolutely, please help me document it as an example in bip99, even if it's just as an example of software fork vs consensus fork
1719 2015-11-26T20:00:04  <btcdrak> time is up.
1720 2015-11-26T20:00:14  <Luke-Jr> ttyl, going to join family
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1722 2015-11-26T20:00:20  <petertodd> Luke-Jr: have fun!
1723 2015-11-26T20:00:24  <btcdrak> #endmeeting
1724 2015-11-26T20:00:24  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov 26 20:00:24 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1725 2015-11-26T20:00:24  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-26-19.24.html
1726 2015-11-26T20:00:24  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-26-19.24.txt
1727 2015-11-26T20:00:24  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-11-26-19.24.log.html
1728 2015-11-26T20:00:25  <btcdrak> #meetingend
1729 2015-11-26T20:00:25  <btcdrak> oh ffs, not this problem again
1730 2015-11-26T20:00:46  <petertodd> jtimon: what do you need to do to document it?
1731 2015-11-26T20:00:47  <btcdrak> cu Luke-Jr
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1734 2015-11-26T20:01:58  <btcdrak> jtimon: I agree. BIP68/BIP112 really got stuck. I think many people had difficultly in understanding it because both BIPs really need to be seen as one.
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1736 2015-11-26T20:02:11  <jtimon> petertodd: whatever you think would fit in bip99 I will happilly review nad ack/nit
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1738 2015-11-26T20:02:20  <jtimon> s/nadand
1739 2015-11-26T20:02:28  <jtimon> s/nad/and
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1741 2015-11-26T20:02:59  <btcdrak> we're suffering from not enough engineers syndrome too because there is so much work, so much is important and a priority and on top we need to find time to review PRs.
1742 2015-11-26T20:03:19  <petertodd> jtimon: alright, I'll have a think about it - probably consittutes a "controversial non-consensus change"
1743 2015-11-26T20:03:46  <petertodd> btcdrak: and the priorities span multipel timescales too
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1746 2015-11-26T20:05:26  <sipa> btcdrak: well i'm fine with the code now, but i really don't feel confident that people have looked in detail at the bips (perhaps because i myself haven't). I don't know why that is, and I understand it's very frustrating, but I still very much don't like feeling like people find this "has to be merged"...
1747 2015-11-26T20:05:43  <btcdrak> petertodd: understood. BIP65 got delayed because of BIP66 priority, and then the community blew itself up.
1748 2015-11-26T20:06:15  <btcdrak> (referring to the XT cafuffle)
1749 2015-11-26T20:06:18  <aj> sipa: anything in particular that would give more confidence?
1750 2015-11-26T20:06:19  <sipa> and right now we have scaling bitcoin coming up, a softfork, a new release, and holidays
1751 2015-11-26T20:06:21  <petertodd> btcdrak: yup
1752 2015-11-26T20:06:26  <jtimon> btcdrak: I think everyone saw an opotunity to refactor things further, which doesn't say anything bad about the original PR, minimal as it was, I think I resisted very well the temptation, but, really, all those improvements would be closer to be merged if we had it merged  already (not to mention the people that even think about touching anywhere those lines until there's some "permantent" base)
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1754 2015-11-26T20:07:06  <petertodd> sipa: "this has to be merged" looks a lot better when there's code using the feature that people want to use in production
1755 2015-11-26T20:07:12  <jtimon> btcdrak: I though implemeting things as policy only was a short-cut to getting in bitcoin core
1756 2015-11-26T20:07:13  <aj> btcdrak: ("kerfuffle" fwiw)
1757 2015-11-26T20:07:18  <petertodd> sipa: !@#$ annoying chicken and egg problem of course, but that's life :(
1758 2015-11-26T20:07:49  <sipa> the only reason i wouldn't want merging is because i don't know whether nothing will be changed, and there is no benefit to having it in
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1761 2015-11-26T20:08:42  <btcdrak> sipa: CLTV was merged into master for the best part of a year...
1762 2015-11-26T20:08:44  <CodeShark> there's a benefit for those who have to keep rebasing it if it doesn't get merged ;)
1763 2015-11-26T20:08:49  <jtimon> petertodd: yep, a section on non-consensus controversial software fork would be awesome for bip99 I think
1764 2015-11-26T20:08:51  <petertodd> note how the experience of CLTV w/ XT's use of nVersion showed that having multiple competing things using the same feature makes analysing what will happen very difficult
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1767 2015-11-26T20:09:30  <sipa> btcdrak: so? it also was not merged for a long time
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1770 2015-11-26T20:10:12  <btcdrak> sipa: but it did get merged and remained in master for a long time because the code was considered complete. I think you have to draw a line somewhere or it may never get done.
1771 2015-11-26T20:10:19  <sipa> btcdrak: i would like to see people say they completely understand the semantics
1772 2015-11-26T20:10:27  <CodeShark> sipa, could we somehow entice you to look at the bips in detail? :)
1773 2015-11-26T20:10:40  <sipa> btcdrak: i don't, because i wasn't even aware the bip was not up to date
1774 2015-11-26T20:10:44  <petertodd> sipa: and part of why it took awhile, was because I myself said we shouldn't merge it without some demos of it in actual use
1775 2015-11-26T20:10:53  <sipa> CodeShark: i will, after scaling bitcoin and 0.12
1776 2015-11-26T20:11:30  <jtimon> petertodd: and RBF is the perfect example, well documented, it would take you more time to correct my two paragraphs section than to write it yourself I think, but thankful of only the review if you don't have time for more
1777 2015-11-26T20:11:33  <btcdrak> sipa: I am confident the specification has been honed. It's had 6 months, we bikeshedded the bit allocation. I think it's time to draw the line at further bikeshedding there (and actually no-one has had any complaints since maaku added the new flags)
1778 2015-11-26T20:11:50  <sipa> btcdrak: two people were aware of that discussion, afaik
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1781 2015-11-26T20:13:25  <btcdrak> sipa: here's what happens. We have ML discussions about it, stuff gets done, people then forget about it, we have IRC meetings about it have to remind then it gets forgotten again - all because there is such a long passage of time. This is not the case for all things but this is what has happened to BIP68/112. I'm simply trying to find out how to move this
1782 2015-11-26T20:13:25  <btcdrak> along.
1783 2015-11-26T20:13:31  <petertodd> btcdrak: I'm increasingly skeptical of calling discussions like that "bikeshedding" - the fact that I realised CLTV could just be an equality comparison months into the process shows this stuff is subtle
1784 2015-11-26T20:13:48  <tommygunner> this might be slightly off topic: is there a difference how quickly txs to multisig addresses are mined compared to standard txs?
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1787 2015-11-26T20:14:04  <petertodd> tommygunner: no
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1789 2015-11-26T20:15:09  <btcdrak> If there are specific criterion like, person a and b *must* review and ACK the code, then I'm fine with that. but so far there hasnt been any specific, "you still need to fulfil criterion x".
1790 2015-11-26T20:15:14  <petertodd> one structural problem with this whole process is the skillset required to do changes like CLTV and CSV, and the skillset required to write applications that actually use those new featurres, seems to be quite different
1791 2015-11-26T20:15:27  <petertodd> btcdrak: unknown unknowns :)
1792 2015-11-26T20:15:47  <jtimon> petertodd: I mean, no hurry with bip99, at some point, hopefully, there will be an uncontroversial hardfork, but I only have timewarp fix ready for deployment for now
1793 2015-11-26T20:16:25  <btcdrak> sipa: also please remember you may not be aware of some of the discussions around BIP68 because iirc you unsubscribed from the ML, something I really dont blame you for, but it's just an example of how communication lines got scuppered.
1794 2015-11-26T20:16:28  <petertodd> btcdrak: anyway, like I said, my criteria for CSV that I think we're blocked on is demos of it actually in use, which I'm trying to finish
1795 2015-11-26T20:16:47  <sipa> btcdrak: that's true
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1797 2015-11-26T20:17:03  <btcdrak> petertodd: cool. that's great and I agree that would really help allay worries.
1798 2015-11-26T20:17:05  <petertodd> btcdrak: and yes, I think in hindsight more of that should have been done for CLTV as well
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1801 2015-11-26T20:18:02  <btcdrak> petertodd: I get it, this is actually quite scary stuff, because consensus changes have to be right, and if there are errors well we may have to live with silly bugs or worse forever.
1802 2015-11-26T20:19:17  <btcdrak> well, all good :)
1803 2015-11-26T20:19:47  <CodeShark> the worse consensus failure to date was the ML itself ;)
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1805 2015-11-26T20:20:28  <btcdrak> CodeShark: haha
1806 2015-11-26T20:20:29  <btcdrak> CodeShark: speaking of another essential cog in the machine, what's happening with versiobits? I can see were going to be congested soon without it :)
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1808 2015-11-26T20:20:58  <btcdrak> although we could so another ISM with nVersion=5 as pointed out by petertodd
1809 2015-11-26T20:21:28  <CodeShark> unfortunately I had hoped to have something finished by last month (and I did have an implementation) but this month I've had too much other stuff to do to be able to dedicate much time to it
1810 2015-11-26T20:22:43  <petertodd> CodeShark: same, I haven't had a chance to look at it at all
1811 2015-11-26T20:23:34  <btcdrak> we're gathering quite a laundry list of softforks :)
1812 2015-11-26T20:23:40  <aj> petertodd: looking at your csv-demos repo; looks like you've just got CLTV (as NOP2) so far, no CSV?
1813 2015-11-26T20:24:42  <petertodd> aj: ha, forgot to push!
1814 2015-11-26T20:25:07  <petertodd> aj: it really is in an ugly half-finished state though
1815 2015-11-26T20:25:19  <petertodd> aj: lots more to be done
1816 2015-11-26T20:25:39  <aj> "class HodlWallet"
1817 2015-11-26T20:25:44  <btcdrak> CSV demo: https://github.com/petertodd/csv-demos
1818 2015-11-26T20:25:50  <btcdrak> <3
1819 2015-11-26T20:25:56  <petertodd> aj: I'd be surprised if the code worked at all :)
1820 2015-11-26T20:26:28  <btcdrak> aj: what's your preference for opcode name?
1821 2015-11-26T20:26:34  <petertodd> aj: this one for CLTV does work though: https://github.com/petertodd/checklocktimeverify-demos/blob/master/hodl.py
1822 2015-11-26T20:29:09  <aj> btcdrak: weak preference for CHECKMATURITYVERIFY since it's short despite keeping the CHECK*VERIFY pattern. RCHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is my least favourite, it's both long and kind of obscure
1823 2015-11-26T20:29:56  <CodeShark> you think it's obscure?
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1825 2015-11-26T20:30:54  <aj> CodeShark: the "R" is pretty important for just 5% of the opcode name :)
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1827 2015-11-26T20:31:19  <CodeShark> yes, granted - but expanding that out makes it even more verbose
1828 2015-11-26T20:31:32  <aj> CodeShark: yep
1829 2015-11-26T20:31:36  <CodeShark> and we already have CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY
1830 2015-11-26T20:31:57  <CodeShark> I'd just go with OP_CLTV and OP_RCLTV and make sure to document it well in the script documentation :)
1831 2015-11-26T20:32:20  <btcdrak> yeah, people alreayd know it well as CLTV
1832 2015-11-26T20:32:56  <aj> btcdrak: (oh, and CSV overlaps with checksigverify as well as .csv files)
1833 2015-11-26T20:33:07  <btcdrak> yeah maybe OP_RCLTV
1834 2015-11-26T20:33:24  <aj> (why RCLTV not CRLTV?)
1835 2015-11-26T20:33:31  <btcdrak> aj: well there's another good reason not to use CSV
1836 2015-11-26T20:33:38  <sipa> CRLF tv?
1837 2015-11-26T20:33:50  <CodeShark> CRLTV looks too much like CTRL-V
1838 2015-11-26T20:33:53  <CodeShark> :p
1839 2015-11-26T20:34:01  <btcdrak>  >.<
1840 2015-11-26T20:34:02  <aj> sipa: ...i'd watch the pilot episode of that.
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1843 2015-11-26T20:35:31  <CodeShark> I prefer RCLTV to CRLTV because prefixes to an existing seme are easier to use
1844 2015-11-26T20:35:54  <CodeShark> i.e are we using absolute or relative locktime?
1845 2015-11-26T20:36:05  <CodeShark> not are we using lock absolute time or lock relative time
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1847 2015-11-26T20:37:47  <CodeShark> although the example isn't exact since your suggestion actually infixes between "check" and "lock", not between "lock" and "time"
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1849 2015-11-26T20:38:20  <CodeShark> but the point still holds :)
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1851 2015-11-26T20:38:36  <vangke> im using multibit for sending bitcoin but now the result is showing on Block Chain is transaction not found ! may i know how to do?
1852 2015-11-26T20:38:43  <aj> CodeShark: in my head, locktime is relative or absolute
1853 2015-11-26T20:38:51  <btcdrak> vangke: ask in #bitcoin please
1854 2015-11-26T20:38:58  <vangke> ok
1855 2015-11-26T20:39:05  <CodeShark> aj: ok,  I see your point
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1857 2015-11-26T20:39:31  <CodeShark> yeah, I guess the pattern is actually check <condition> verify
1858 2015-11-26T20:39:39  <aj> CodeShark: (also, i don't actually care -- if i don't like the name, i'll just make an alias...)
1859 2015-11-26T20:40:28  <aj> CodeShark: CLTV as an acronym is definitely easy to treat as a "seme" and prefix with an R though
1860 2015-11-26T20:40:48  <CodeShark> right,  that's sort of how I was thinking about it
1861 2015-11-26T20:41:11  <aj> CodeShark: i suppose CHECK_MATURITY_TIME_VERIFY  (CLTV vs CMTV)  would be dumb...
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1864 2015-11-26T20:41:16  <CodeShark> but strictly speaking, it breaks the opcode naming convention
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1868 2015-11-26T20:41:39  <CodeShark> RCLTV, that is
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1874 2015-11-26T20:43:59  <CodeShark> the problem I have with maturity is that even though the logic is equivalent to  the coinbase use case, from an app developer standpoint the two are actually quite different
1875 2015-11-26T20:44:17  <sipa> and in the code they are also completely separate
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1878 2015-11-26T20:45:39  <CodeShark> maturity is a feature of the system to limit the disruptive impact of reorgs whereas locktime is a user-definable constraint on spending
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1948 2015-11-26T21:09:48  <frank1e> anyone here managed to get bitcoind running (without having to run the gui client in the background) on mac os x 10.11.1 ?
1949 2015-11-26T21:10:17  <frank1e> or getting it to run in general? or even getting past the "make" step? :D
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1951 2015-11-26T21:13:42  <btcdrak> frankle: probably should be in #bitcoin not sure, but anyway, have you read https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-osx.md ?
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1954 2015-11-26T21:16:54  <frank1e> btcdrak yes that's exactly the guide I followed
1955 2015-11-26T21:17:24  <frank1e> but no luck, some weird errors appear, no luck with any kind of research yet (and I also don't understand them)
1956 2015-11-26T21:17:28  <btcdrak> frankle: I cant be more helpful I am afraid because I dont run OSX
1957 2015-11-26T21:17:49  <btcdrak> ask in #bitcoin
1958 2015-11-26T21:18:11  <frank1e> yeah did, no response yet. wanted to try my luck here. maybe I'll just ask another day then :)
1959 2015-11-26T21:18:18  <frank1e> (in #bitcoin)
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2007 2015-11-26T22:48:08  <aj> btcdrak: do you have a repo that has OP_RELATIVE_HODL enabled?
2008 2015-11-26T22:49:26  <Traumzauberbaum> I want to run a bitcore-node but the bootstrapping is taking forever (est. a week) can it be accelerated? is it risky to download the blockchain from a third party? would that even help? what are the risks?
2009 2015-11-26T22:50:15  <aj> btcdrak: https://github.com/btcdrak/bitcoin/commits/checksequenceverify maybe?
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