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  30 2015-11-29T01:11:58  <wizkid057> yeah, Eligius will be v4 within the next couple of hours
  31 2015-11-29T01:12:31  <gmaxwell> wizkid057: cool.
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  35 2015-11-29T01:32:14  <btcdrak> wizkid057: +1
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  67 2015-11-29T03:10:39  <wizkid057> alright, all set.  next block will be v4 :)
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  69 2015-11-29T03:13:59  <Newyorkadam> wizkid057: grats :p
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  72 2015-11-29T03:14:38  <wizkid057> thanks.  I don't want to hold up the show like I did with v2->v3 :P
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 129 2015-11-29T06:20:44  <jtoomim> what is the default nSequence value for transactions created by Core?
 130 2015-11-29T06:20:54  <jtoomim> what is the default nSequence value for transactions created by other wallets?
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 132 2015-11-29T06:24:02  <gmaxwell> INT_MAX, and INT_MAX-1 (e.g. neigher are implicated by opt in rbf)
 133 2015-11-29T06:25:13  <jtoomim> k, thanks
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 143 2015-11-29T06:42:25  <jtoomim> by the way, i coded up an RPC a couple of days ago into XT to change the block size soft limit for a mining full node without restarting bitcoind. should i submit it as a PR for Core?
 144 2015-11-29T06:42:37  <jtoomim> do you guys think it would be useful and uncontroversial?
 145 2015-11-29T06:43:52  <jtoomim> the code would need to be slightly different from what I used for XT, but it would look mostly like this: https://github.com/jtoomim/bitcoinxt/commit/86b978a42b0a5bd3d47e0b0b29e8dadf90b274b8
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 150 2015-11-29T06:51:06  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: quick glance at your patch .. what lock protects nBlockMaxSize?
 151 2015-11-29T06:51:54  <jtoomim> cs_main
 152 2015-11-29T06:52:17  <jtoomim> locked either in CNB or GBT, IIRC
 153 2015-11-29T06:52:19  <jtoomim> i think GBT
 154 2015-11-29T06:52:32  <jtoomim> also locked in setblockmaxsize()
 155 2015-11-29T06:52:40  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: and jtimon might have more opinions around making mining parameters runtime settable (e.g. should there be an rpc or a setpolicy call?) but beyond correctness and interface considerations, I don't think there is anything controversial with making existing settings runtime settable.
 156 2015-11-29T06:53:18  <gmaxwell> For non-settable things there may be deeper assumptions; for existing settings the only extra thing to worrk about is locking.
 157 2015-11-29T06:53:38  <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: sounds reasonable, but I suggest making a setconfig RPC that can change any mapArgs
 158 2015-11-29T06:54:02  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: thats going to end up data racy.
 159 2015-11-29T06:54:14  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: with a mutex?
 160 2015-11-29T06:54:38  <jtoomim> each variable might have a different mutex
 161 2015-11-29T06:54:43  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: it means you'd need to go add a lock on all use of args in the code, which might have performance implications.
 162 2015-11-29T06:54:58  <gmaxwell> (though if so, they should probably be hoisted from innerloops)
 163 2015-11-29T06:55:04  <Luke-Jr> hm, they're not already in cs_main?
 164 2015-11-29T06:55:08  <jtoomim> i think it's probably safer to code each one individually
 165 2015-11-29T06:55:17  <gmaxwell> There may be other assumptions that they don't change, e.g. we have data structures that are init-time sized from them.
 166 2015-11-29T06:55:25  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: we have code that runs without cs_main.
 167 2015-11-29T06:55:25  <jtoomim> many of them would be under cs_main right now, but we might not want everything under one lock for all eternity
 168 2015-11-29T06:55:33  <gmaxwell> Maybe all the args accesses have it? I dunno.
 169 2015-11-29T06:55:37  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: yes, we don't need to support using it in every possible way; it's just simpler to code
 170 2015-11-29T06:56:20  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I'm sympathetic to that thinking, but it's also a bit of a trap. What happens when somethign is sized at init time (changing doesn't work,okay) AND that size is used again later?
 171 2015-11-29T06:56:39  <gmaxwell> would be a lot of work to review. might be best but not a small change at least.
 172 2015-11-29T06:56:44  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: we tell the user "don't do that" :p
 173 2015-11-29T06:57:19  <Luke-Jr> (or fix it, if we want to support it going forward)
 174 2015-11-29T06:57:30  <jtoomim> reviewing each variable might be close to the same amount of work as coding each variable individually.
 175 2015-11-29T06:57:41  <jtoomim> there probably aren't that many variables that people would want to change on-the-fly anyway
 176 2015-11-29T06:58:04  <jtoomim> block size, dust limit, maybe a couple others
 177 2015-11-29T06:58:49  <Luke-Jr> I'm suggesting we don't have to explicitly prevent changing things that won't work. It can simply be documented as only supported for a known set, use at own risk
 178 2015-11-29T06:59:38  <jtoomim> well, i'm not going to code that.
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 180 2015-11-29T07:03:37  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I think there are very few settings that it wouldn't be good to be able to change on the fly. But some are just not realistic.
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 185 2015-11-29T07:06:25  <David__> I want read source code of bitcoin, where to start?
 186 2015-11-29T07:06:35  <David__> does is open source?
 187 2015-11-29T07:06:54  <jtoomim> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/src
 188 2015-11-29T07:07:19  <jtoomim> perhaps main.cpp or init.cpp
 189 2015-11-29T07:07:56  *** kgk has joined #bitcoin-dev
 190 2015-11-29T07:08:50  <jtoomim> gmaxwell luke-jr i'm not saying that having one RPC to change them all would be a bad thing. I'm just saying that it's more work than i want to put into it at the moment.
 191 2015-11-29T07:08:59  *** chmod755 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 192 2015-11-29T07:09:38  <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: in other words "I'm done, take it or leave it" or "that sounds much more difficult" ?
 193 2015-11-29T07:09:43  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: yes, nothing wrong with that.
 194 2015-11-29T07:09:51  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: I think you're reading too much tone into jtoomim's words.
 195 2015-11-29T07:10:16  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: I think you're reading too much tone into my own? :P
 196 2015-11-29T07:10:19  <gmaxwell> He was asking if we're interested and if it would be controversial. The latter, no, but perhaps it's too minor to bother.
 197 2015-11-29T07:10:34  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: okay, then: jtoomim: please don't read too much into luke's tone.
 198 2015-11-29T07:10:39  *** splix has joined #bitcoin-dev
 199 2015-11-29T07:11:52  <tulip> David__: if you're interested in the system, not the current state, the wxBitcoin 0.1 source is considerably easier to read and significantly shorter. it's consensus-incompatible with the network now but the concepts are still the same.
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 201 2015-11-29T07:12:42  <gmaxwell> tulip: it should actually sync the chain with a bdb config change and a version message protocol adapter. Have you tried lately?
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 203 2015-11-29T07:13:50  <gmaxwell> The splitting of script execution was probably an unintentional hard fork. but afaik no one has crated a transaction that would trip up on it.
 204 2015-11-29T07:14:12  <tulip> I'm tempted to give it a go. the node it is syncing to might need the p2p message size relaxed too, or was that a later change than 0.1?
 205 2015-11-29T07:14:49  <gmaxwell> the misbehavior trigger is getheaders, which 0.1 doesn't have at all, IIRC.
 206 2015-11-29T07:15:06  <David__> Hi Tulip, got it. thanks. I am java coder, hope it is not so difficult.
 207 2015-11-29T07:15:08  <tulip> you're right, it doesn't have that p2p message.
 208 2015-11-29T07:15:19  <gmaxwell> though it may get stuck for lack of the 'continue' support when 500 blocks won't fit in 2mb.
 209 2015-11-29T07:15:21  *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
 210 2015-11-29T07:15:47  <tulip> I'll see how it goes, I imagine this will take weeks of CPU time to even find out though.
 211 2015-11-29T07:16:15  <Luke-Jr> huh, was 0.1 really more readable? O.o
 212 2015-11-29T07:16:19  <gmaxwell> Yea, it was a lot slower.
 213 2015-11-29T07:16:24  <gmaxwell> I think it was a lot more readable.
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 215 2015-11-29T07:16:34  <tulip> 0.1 is tiny compared with the size of the code now
 216 2015-11-29T07:16:47  <gmaxwell> Some of it is style preference, but it actually did a lot less.. so there is a lot less distractions.
 217 2015-11-29T07:17:14  <tulip> of the stuff there you can ignore things like irc.cpp and market.cpp, suddenly there's not even many files remaining.
 218 2015-11-29T07:17:39  <jtoomim> luke-jr: mostly the former. I added dynamic blocksize adjustment because i needed it for my testing.
 219 2015-11-29T07:18:06  <jtoomim> as for tone: let me know if we need to settle this through interpretive dance.
 220 2015-11-29T07:18:15  <Luke-Jr> lol
 221 2015-11-29T07:19:02  <sipa> Luke-Jr, gmaxwell: args are not protrcted by any lock. you can't just go change them on the fly in general
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 225 2015-11-29T07:20:12  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: heh sorry for the meta tangent, I just thought it sounded like luke was yelling at you. My bad. :)
 226 2015-11-29T07:22:49  <jtoomim> talk about meta. it sounds like we're now arguing about whether we were having an argument about arguments
 227 2015-11-29T07:22:50  <sipa> Luke-Jr: several are parsed into local variables, or have complex sanity checks done on them, conflict with others, ...
 228 2015-11-29T07:23:59  <sipa> Luke-Jr: i would absolutely love to be able to change all variables on the fly, but it would first require revamping most of the option code, to make it aware of all those checks, interactions, and parsings
 229 2015-11-29T07:24:05  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: You hurt my feelings!!!
 230 2015-11-29T07:24:47  <Luke-Jr> gmaxwell: when have you ever heard me yell? :P
 231 2015-11-29T07:25:04  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: in any case, in your long sought quest to get people to actually set settings, getting them runtime configurable would no doubt help.
 232 2015-11-29T07:25:12  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: online? do you do anything but? :P
 233 2015-11-29T07:25:28  <Luke-Jr> yelling would be quite out of character for me
 234 2015-11-29T07:25:41  <jtoomim> it's a LOCK2(cs_main, mempool.cs); in CreateNewBlock() that protects the one and only use of nBlockMaxSize, by the way.
 235 2015-11-29T07:25:44  <gmaxwell> Only someone who's met you in person would know this.
 236 2015-11-29T07:26:02  <sipa> jtoomim: in another channel i'm in, there is a bot to which you can tell "oa on" or "oa off", to put the channel in or out of overanalysis mode; "oa off" always fails with an error
 237 2015-11-29T07:26:42  <gmaxwell> do people study the error?
 238 2015-11-29T07:26:43  <sipa> jtoomim: cs_main is fine then
 239 2015-11-29T07:26:56  <sipa> gmaxwell: it has been the topic of discussion for sure
 240 2015-11-29T07:27:10  <jtoomim> sipa i bet that's just because the author of the code for that channel tried to perform excessive abstraction in their arbitrary argument getting-and-setting code
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 242 2015-11-29T07:29:44  <David__> what is the difference of bitcoinJ and bitcoin core?
 243 2015-11-29T07:30:04  <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: have we met in person?
 244 2015-11-29T07:30:31  <jtoomim> nope
 245 2015-11-29T07:30:31  <Luke-Jr> David__: Bitcoin Core is literally Bitcoin itself, plus a wallet, and some other stuff; BitcoinJ is just a client library
 246 2015-11-29T07:30:37  <tulip> David__: BitcoinJ is a complete re-write in Java with slightly different aims, generally it is used in "SPV" mode which does very weak validation of network rules.
 247 2015-11-29T07:30:53  <gmaxwell> There is a more complete implementation of the protocol in bitcoinj but it's not normally used and its author will tell you not to use it.
 248 2015-11-29T07:43:03  <Lightsword> does it look the CNB rewrite https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6898 will make it into 0.12?
 249 2015-11-29T07:43:31  <Lightsword> look like*
 250 2015-11-29T07:43:45  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: as you can see, it's milestoned 0.12
 251 2015-11-29T07:45:42  <Lightsword> I see, is it mainly just awaiting code review?
 252 2015-11-29T07:47:51  *** tulip has quit IRC
 253 2015-11-29T07:48:41  <midnightmagic> also, it's not actually SPV.
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 257 2015-11-29T08:03:56  <Lightsword> since TestBlockValidity is the largest source of delay in #6898 would it be safe enough to skip the TestBlockValidity check for the first GBT call after a block change?
 258 2015-11-29T08:05:15  <Lightsword> or to at least do the check after responding to the GBT call so that you know there was a failure
 259 2015-11-29T08:05:27  <jtoomim> lightsword: my proposal is to run TBV in a background thread asynchronously
 260 2015-11-29T08:05:41  <jtoomim> as long as no previous failures of TBV have been observerd
 261 2015-11-29T08:06:27  <jtoomim> i don't think i've ever seen TBV fail
 262 2015-11-29T08:06:33  <gmaxwell> I certantly have.
 263 2015-11-29T08:06:47  <jtoomim> i guess i need to try harder then
 264 2015-11-29T08:07:11  <Lightsword> jtoomim, would you wait for TBV to complete before responding to the GBT call?
 265 2015-11-29T08:07:25  <gmaxwell> I think returning early and running it in the background is reasonable, I don't thing anyone cares if they get one unit of bad work before the processes asserts.
 266 2015-11-29T08:07:27  <jtoomim> lightsword, no i would not
 267 2015-11-29T08:07:43  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, a failed TBV results in a shutdown of core right?
 268 2015-11-29T08:07:48  <gmaxwell> But thats still not as good as just returning an empty template when the whole thing hasn't been precomputed.
 269 2015-11-29T08:08:05  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: yes.
 270 2015-11-29T08:08:08  <jtoomim> if TBV has not failed in, say, the last 24 hours, then i would optimisticly return the blocktemplate via RPC before waiting for TBV to complete
 271 2015-11-29T08:08:37  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: I don't see any reason for that 24 hours, that just results in undiagnosable mysterious behavior changes. :)
 272 2015-11-29T08:08:45  <jtoomim> gmaxwell: pool software can easily create an empty template without GBT
 273 2015-11-29T08:09:10  *** Coinminer34 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 274 2015-11-29T08:09:15  <jtoomim> gmaxwell: oh, i didn't realize TBV closes bitcoind
 275 2015-11-29T08:09:19  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: sure, from the notify. But it's extra work and things to get right (and people have gotten that stuff wrong in the past. :( )
 276 2015-11-29T08:09:31  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, from the looks of it with #6898 the delay difference between the empty template and one with transactions would be negligable if the TBV check is skipped
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 278 2015-11-29T08:10:02  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: we've talked before about having some kinds of failures write a file that inhibits startup until erased. "YOUR_BITCOIN_NODE_IS_SERIOUSLY_BUSTED_DO_NOT_REMOVE_UNTIL_YOU_FIGURE_OUT_WHY.txt"
 279 2015-11-29T08:10:09  <jtoomim> i asked ckolivas and kano about it a while ago, and they said that bitcoind should *not* return an empty template under any circumstances
 280 2015-11-29T08:10:32  <jtoomim> i think the pool software authors have already done that extra work
 281 2015-11-29T08:10:38  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: Then they gave you bad advice.
 282 2015-11-29T08:11:05  <Lightsword> before the spam attacks I don’t think it was a major delay source
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 284 2015-11-29T08:11:24  <gmaxwell> I believe the only pool software publically available that does dummy work generation is eloipool.
 285 2015-11-29T08:11:54  <jtoomim> i think that's true
 286 2015-11-29T08:12:07  <jtoomim> and i think ckpool's authors actively chose not to do it
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 290 2015-11-29T08:12:19  <Lightsword> it’s not just them who actively chose not to do it
 291 2015-11-29T08:12:19  <jtoomim> i think it would be fine if it were a configurable option
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 293 2015-11-29T08:12:36  <Lightsword> eleuthria had similar thoughts on the matter
 294 2015-11-29T08:12:36  <jtoomim> though it makes me feel a little dirty
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 296 2015-11-29T08:13:09  <jtoomim> but i think we can make CNB fast enough that there's no incentive to make empty blocks at all
 297 2015-11-29T08:13:11  <Lightsword> if the benchmarks on #6898 are accurate it shouldn’t really matter
 298 2015-11-29T08:13:21  <Lightsword> if the TBV check is skipped
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 300 2015-11-29T08:13:55  <jtoomim> lightsword the numbers i saw from my own partial rewrite of CNB suggest that those numbers are plausible
 301 2015-11-29T08:14:10  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: maybe, but I am not willing to increase the non-validated blocks to avoid a few harmless empty ones.
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 303 2015-11-29T08:15:00  <Lightsword> the other thing I’m thinking is that returning non-empty templates may encourage full validation for those doing the stratum based SPV mining
 304 2015-11-29T08:15:16  <gmaxwell> Empty blocks are harmless, they still drive consensus on the longest validated chain, and they at worse a fraction of a percent capacity loss-- not even when blocks aren't all totally full.  Blocks are a posson process so one block being found doesn't at all delay the next (until retargeting)
 305 2015-11-29T08:15:59  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: if its even a few miliseconds slower it will do the opposite though.
 306 2015-11-29T08:16:53  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, fully validating will always be slower than the stratum based validation skipping mining so there is little advantage unless you have transactions
 307 2015-11-29T08:17:01  <jtoomim> empty blocks increase the difficulty but don't carry any transactions, so they reduce the max tps of the bitcoin network
 308 2015-11-29T08:17:46  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: There is no reason why it needs to be non-trivially slower; as normally the entirety of a block is verfied before you ever got it, whats left is hashing, but thats it.
 309 2015-11-29T08:18:22  <jtoomim> i think a getblocktemplate interface that blocks until the new template is actually ready is easier to work with than an interface that gives different behavior at different times
 310 2015-11-29T08:18:23  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: a negligible amount, e.g. a fraction of a percent. And even small amounts of validation skipping make lite clients far more risky.
 311 2015-11-29T08:18:32  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, well you have to download the block to validate it which the stratum based mining does not do
 312 2015-11-29T08:18:42  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: thats not true.
 313 2015-11-29T08:18:58  <gmaxwell> You already have the content of the block-- it's all the transactions that came before.
 314 2015-11-29T08:18:59  <jtoomim> i.e. if you get an empty result you have to guess about whether the mempool is empty or not, and if it's empty you poll every few ms until you get a full template back? awkward.
 315 2015-11-29T08:19:04  <sipa> Lightsword: the miner creating it does not need to download
 316 2015-11-29T08:19:11  <gmaxwell> This is precisely the optimization that the relay node client does.
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 318 2015-11-29T08:19:36  <Lightsword> sipa, I’m talking about non-self created blocks
 319 2015-11-29T08:19:41  <sipa> ok
 320 2015-11-29T08:19:44  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: everyone already does things like N second polling to get updated transactions.
 321 2015-11-29T08:19:59  <jtoomim> n second, yes, but n millisecond?
 322 2015-11-29T08:20:19  <jtoomim> polling for a few more transactions out of a thousand is one thing. polling for 1 tx versus 1000 is a different thing.
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 324 2015-11-29T08:20:36  <jtoomim> those two scenarios have quantitatively vastly different economic incentives
 325 2015-11-29T08:21:11  <gmaxwell> why do you care about n millisecond. 1 second is a < 1% capacity loss.
 326 2015-11-29T08:21:22  <jtoomim> block validation in UpdateTip should take longer than CreateNewBlock/getblocktemplate
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 328 2015-11-29T08:21:42  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, I’m talking about the system where pools mine off of each others stratum headers before downloading and validating the block
 329 2015-11-29T08:21:44  <jtoomim> once CNB is fully optimized, it should take under 100 ms, i think
 330 2015-11-29T08:21:57  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: no it shouldn't; considering that you cannot CNB until the update has happened, they're cumulative.
 331 2015-11-29T08:22:33  <jtoomim> yes, they're cumulative, which is why returning an empty block is not very helpful
 332 2015-11-29T08:22:38  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: I know you are. And you claimed that to validate a block you must download it. And this just isn't true, today in practice.
 333 2015-11-29T08:22:49  <jtoomim> there is a very short period of time when bitcoind knows what the previous valid block is but doesn't know what transactions can go in the next one
 334 2015-11-29T08:23:36  <gmaxwell> jtoomim: 100ms is a signficant fraction of the updatetip time. E.g. it can make the difference between miners gutting validation and not;  if it doesn't it doesn't sure, and no reason to return an empty result then.
 335 2015-11-29T08:24:04  *** GAit has quit IRC
 336 2015-11-29T08:24:10  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, I’m confused about how you already could have the content of the block especially when a number of pools are mining unseen transactions
 337 2015-11-29T08:24:30  <sipa> Lightsword: they're not 100% unseen, right?
 338 2015-11-29T08:24:37  <Lightsword> sipa, some are AFAIK
 339 2015-11-29T08:24:43  <Lightsword> I think 21 Inc and f2pool
 340 2015-11-29T08:24:55  <Lightsword> maybe btcchina as well
 341 2015-11-29T08:25:09  <sipa> i have a hard time believing that
 342 2015-11-29T08:25:18  <Lightsword> f2pool apparently self-mines all their payouts
 343 2015-11-29T08:25:35  <gmaxwell> 21inc is about half unseen, it's weird. or at least what bc.i says is 21inc.
 344 2015-11-29T08:25:35  <sipa> but that's not the only thing they mine
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 346 2015-11-29T08:25:49  <tulip> sipa: I don't have numbers but they do mine some number of unseen transactions.
 347 2015-11-29T08:25:57  <sipa> ok
 348 2015-11-29T08:26:01  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, I was the one who tagged them on bc.i it is accurate
 349 2015-11-29T08:26:04  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: Unseen things are unseen and have to be transfered, but miners that do that will suffer higher orphan rates for their blocks (for several reasons)
 350 2015-11-29T08:26:33  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: I contacted them and they claimed they run unmodified software with stock settings, so I wondered if maybe it wasn't really their own blocks.
 351 2015-11-29T08:26:51  <sipa> gmaxwell: i'm confused by what you said above; for what amount of time (for TBV) do you think it's reasonable to not do it before CNB returns?
 352 2015-11-29T08:27:04  <tulip> sipa: I've been working on extending -debug=bench to write stats for EC cache hitrates, which is where that is from.
 353 2015-11-29T08:27:21  <sipa> tulip: i see :)
 354 2015-11-29T08:27:23  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, they also couldn’t really be any other pool on bc.i due to the amount of unknowns being incredibly small
 355 2015-11-29T08:27:37  <sipa> tulip: i wrote code for that too, maybe it's still in some branch
 356 2015-11-29T08:27:41  <Lightsword> could they be running some weird relay settings?
 357 2015-11-29T08:28:08  <tulip> sipa: might try and find it and see how you implemented it.
 358 2015-11-29T08:28:18  <sipa> probably not pushed it
 359 2015-11-29T08:28:37  <gmaxwell> sipa: if the output is being continually tested then I don't think about it in terms of time. Its just that if a node of yours is producing bad results you want it to fail immediately so you can fail over to another work source.
 360 2015-11-29T08:28:57  <gmaxwell> a single bad block showing up on the network isn't the end of the world, so long as no one will extend it.
 361 2015-11-29T08:29:33  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, anyways my point is that in practice and even with relay network there is no real way to beat the stratum based method since it completely bypasses bitcoind
 362 2015-11-29T08:30:02  <gmaxwell> sipa: so 'e.g. before the next one', if you ever give bad work you're guarenteed to shut down 'promotly'.
 363 2015-11-29T08:30:14  <sipa> Lightsword: there is absolute no way to beat it, which is said
 364 2015-11-29T08:30:37  <sipa> Lightsword: but there are certainly configurations in which the benefit is marginal enough to hopefully not matter
 365 2015-11-29T08:30:43  <sipa> *sad
 366 2015-11-29T08:31:06  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: thats the whole point of optimizing bitcoind;  To be clear: there are many locally profit maximixing things miners could do at the expense of users of bitcoin, if most miners do them bitcoin _cannot_ work.
 367 2015-11-29T08:31:55  <Lightsword> sipa, yeah that’s why I think there needs to be more of an advantage(like having transactions) to fully validating and why returning an empty template would not help much
 368 2015-11-29T08:32:07  <gmaxwell> So our excercise has always been about optimizing things so that the benefit of rational behavior over alturistic is so small that the other benefits of alturism (like a healthier bitcoin system, decreased risk of attack, friendly relations with professionals, etc.) dominate them.
 369 2015-11-29T08:32:27  <sipa> gmaxwell: imho TBV should run outside of the CNB loop, and just test some fraction of work produced; its just is detecting broken software/comnfiguration; not finding imdividual bad results
 370 2015-11-29T08:33:00  <sipa> Lightsword: well there may be incentives that promote having more transactions
 371 2015-11-29T08:33:33  <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't think there is any reason to bother only checking a fraction, once it's not latency critical it doesn't matter. And random sampling is not so effective at systemic errors. :)
 372 2015-11-29T08:35:15  <Lightsword> sipa, well the incentive would be fees mainly IMO and as long as GBT is close enough to the stratum method in terms of delay it could make sense economically to just use GBT and mine those fees rather than sending out blank templates
 373 2015-11-29T08:35:20  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: in any case, my obvjective is only to eliminate incentives to not validate; and minimize fairness disadvantages that smaller miners suffer with higher delays.
 374 2015-11-29T08:36:08  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: unfortunately one downside is that right after a block the pools has been drained of the highest value transactions. Though hopefully the anti-sniping may help some in the future.
 375 2015-11-29T08:36:21  *** shurnormal has joined #bitcoin-dev
 376 2015-11-29T08:37:19  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: another possibility would be to return only the top of the mempool (assuming that ended up considerably faster). Keep in mind that more transactions also take more time to distribute work out to devices; though I don't know if anyone has well characterized those delays.
 377 2015-11-29T08:37:44  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, true although if the transactions aren’t filling the block then CNB should be faster right since it will terminate sooner?
 378 2015-11-29T08:37:46  <sipa> gmaxwell: not a problem if there is not much fee variation, and a consistent backlog of a few blocks wortg
 379 2015-11-29T08:38:08  <sipa> Lightsword: CNB should run in milliseconds, ignoring TBV
 380 2015-11-29T08:38:40  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: yes, it's faster (and the TBV too) with less data.
 381 2015-11-29T08:38:45  <Lightsword> the changes in #6898 should make it so that CNB times are no longer dependent on mempool size right?
 382 2015-11-29T08:39:16  <sipa> they still are for the priority space
 383 2015-11-29T08:39:48  <tulip> sipa: doesn't look like you pushed it, never mind.
 384 2015-11-29T08:40:08  <Lightsword> would it make sense to skip priority on the first GBT call?
 385 2015-11-29T08:40:28  <sipa> Lightsword: it would make sense to set the priority space to 0 imho
 386 2015-11-29T08:40:47  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, stratum delays should be minimal expecially with proxy systems often used by farms
 387 2015-11-29T08:41:02  <Lightsword> sipa, I already do that actually
 388 2015-11-29T08:41:27  <Lightsword> well I just block free transaction relay
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 390 2015-11-29T08:42:07  <jtoomim> stratum just includes the merkle root hash, right? that should be basically O(1) vs number of transactions
 391 2015-11-29T08:42:23  <tulip> no, it includes the whole merkle path to the coinbase.
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 393 2015-11-29T08:42:50  <jtoomim> ok, so log(n)
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 401 2015-11-29T08:52:45  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: Don't be so sure, a lot of software has never been tested for latency...
 402 2015-11-29T08:54:00  * midnightmagic tries to find a way to link to Solyaris' rain in a teacup scene but discovers youtube is now offering to rent it instead.
 403 2015-11-29T08:55:37  <Lightsword> gmaxwell, yeah, I’m probably generalizing a bit but it shouldn’t be an issue for optimized stratum servers, some of the pools like antpool do seem to be pretty inconsistant about block updates even for self-found blocks, although that could just be an internal misconfiguration
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 509 2015-11-29T13:33:18  <niggs> Starting a new project guys. Need some fundings
 510 2015-11-29T13:33:35  <niggs> Shares 20%
 511 2015-11-29T13:35:04  <niggs> ?
 512 2015-11-29T13:35:42  <pigeons> not here
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 514 2015-11-29T13:36:45  <niggs> Need investment for new project guys
 515 2015-11-29T13:36:55  <root-investment> what project?
 516 2015-11-29T13:37:05  <root-investment> and how much do u want?
 517 2015-11-29T13:37:13  <niggs> 1k btc
 518 2015-11-29T13:37:18  <root-investment> lol
 519 2015-11-29T13:37:41  <root-investment> explain me the pros.and proj
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 525 2015-11-29T13:42:13  <root-investment> anybody wants to contribute for a genuine development project of a new bitcoin wallet service????
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 537 2015-11-29T13:45:11  <root-investment> need investment for a new wallet project??
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 620 2015-11-29T16:54:50  <btcdrak> I spoke with G1lius and harding. We can get the weekly dev summaries on bitcoin.org https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/issues/1147
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 640 2015-11-29T17:20:40  <harding> (Subject to me doing some technical things and the regular PR discussion, of course.)
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 643 2015-11-29T17:24:34  <btcdrak> harding it would also be cool if we could somehow get a feed of merged PRs somewhere.
 644 2015-11-29T17:25:02  <harding> btcdrak: that's available on GitHub.  I subscribe to it myself.
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 646 2015-11-29T17:25:32  <btcdrak> yeah, but get that on this "what's happeing in dev" section we're talking about. So people can get a feel for how much work and progress is getting done.
 647 2015-11-29T17:26:52  <btcdrak> do we have links to the new bitcoin-discuss list on the website yet?
 648 2015-11-29T17:27:35  <harding> btcdrak: No.  Please feel free to PR those, or open an issue and I'll do it.
 649 2015-11-29T17:27:58  <btcdrak> harding: ok cool. just came to mind
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 674 2015-11-29T18:33:21  <Luke-Jr> harding: what are your thoughts on extending the Core stuff to cover other full nodes? (LJR, addrindex, RBF, etc)
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 676 2015-11-29T18:41:26  <harding> Luke-Jr: I think Bitcoin.org should publish any contributed material that is factual and reasonably uncontroversial amongst experts, and that all sounds like it fits the bill.  We can always split stuff out to separate pages later if people don't like having X on the page about Y.
 677 2015-11-29T18:42:21  <Luke-Jr> harding: think any of the web experts working on Bitcoin.org would be interested?
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 679 2015-11-29T18:43:07  <Luke-Jr> (web design isn't really my area)
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 681 2015-11-29T18:44:19  <harding> Mine neither.  I don't think there's any harm in opening an issue and seeing who responds.  That's worked pretty well for us in the past, e.g. when neither saivann nor I wanted to do wallet reviews any more, someone stepped up and started doing a better job than either of us had ever done.
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 700 2015-11-29T19:41:58  <airik> I've had a transaction stuck for several hours, and trying to sign a double-spend (one that pays less change, to give it a higher fee) but bitcoin-cli signrawtransaction keeps just giving "Input not found or already spent"
 701 2015-11-29T19:42:04  <airik> I've cleared my mempool as well
 702 2015-11-29T19:43:26  <sipa> your wallet will resubmit the old one to the wallet
 703 2015-11-29T19:43:42  <sipa> eh, to the mempool
 704 2015-11-29T19:44:01  <airik> Ah, so I should restart it in offline mode?
 705 2015-11-29T19:44:20  <sipa> no, you should use the manual signrawtransaction
 706 2015-11-29T19:44:27  <airik> I am using signrawtransaction
 707 2015-11-29T19:44:36  <sipa> where you give the output to soend as an argument
 708 2015-11-29T19:44:59  <sipa> the problem is not that signrawtransaction doesn't allow you to doublespend
 709 2015-11-29T19:45:03  <sipa> it's that it can't find the output to sign for
 710 2015-11-29T19:45:33  <airik> ah i see, thanks
 711 2015-11-29T19:45:54  <sipa> there's no reason for that though; it should ignore the mempool, because it could easiky find it in the chainstate
 712 2015-11-29T19:46:02  <sipa> do you mind filing a bug for that?
 713 2015-11-29T19:46:18  <airik> don't have a github account :(
 714 2015-11-29T19:46:24  <airik> deleted mine, sorry :(
 715 2015-11-29T19:47:38  <sipa> ok, will try to remember this myself
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 720 2015-11-29T19:57:30  <airik> sipa: Never mind, it was a bug in my code, not bitcoin. It seems to be handling it fine =)
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 725 2015-11-29T20:01:07  <sipa> ok!
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