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785 2015-11-30T11:13:01 <rook520> Are we the next 1%?
786 2015-11-30T11:13:20 <chmod755> possibly
787 2015-11-30T11:13:32 <rook520> This is amazing..
788 2015-11-30T11:13:34 <Diablo-D3> yes
789 2015-11-30T11:13:39 <jeremias> depends who you mean by "we"
790 2015-11-30T11:13:50 <sipa> #bitcoin please
791 2015-11-30T11:14:04 <rook520> Active bitcoin farmers trying to farm as much as possible...?
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913 2015-11-30T13:51:54 <BW^-> 0.11.2 gives me "Leaving block file [N]: CBlockFileInfo(blocks=0, size=0, heights=0...0, time=1970-01-01...1970-01-01)"
914 2015-11-30T13:52:02 <BW^-> it said 1970 for all block files until now
915 2015-11-30T13:52:22 <BW^-> i don't know if anything is broken about my leveldb implementation but if not then that date report is clearly a bug?
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917 2015-11-30T13:52:30 <sipa> BW^-: known bug
918 2015-11-30T13:52:39 <sipa> not sure if it's already fixed in master
919 2015-11-30T13:52:48 <sipa> it's harmelss
920 2015-11-30T13:52:51 <sipa> *harmess
921 2015-11-30T13:52:54 <sipa> **harmless
922 2015-11-30T13:52:57 <BW^-> aha ot it.
923 2015-11-30T13:52:58 <BW^-> super. thanks.
924 2015-11-30T13:53:17 <BW^-> good to know there's not like random bitrot going on in my installation so there could be unexpected surprises later - thanks.
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933 2015-11-30T14:03:02 <tulip> sipa: it's fixed in master.
934 2015-11-30T14:03:29 <sipa> good
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1001 2015-11-30T15:11:46 <btcdrak> BlueMatt: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uugeu/bip65_is_66_on_the_way_to_first_activation/cxhvupi?context=3
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1282 2015-11-30T20:30:05 <jtimon> sdaftuar: what do you mean in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6312/files#r46195041 isn't it made in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6312/files#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR644 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6312/files#diff-7ec3c68a81efff79b6ca22ac1f1eabbaR972 ?
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1284 2015-11-30T20:31:06 <sdaftuar> ah i think i missed that
1285 2015-11-30T20:31:17 <sdaftuar> thanks
1286 2015-11-30T20:32:29 <sdaftuar> (comment redacted)
1287 2015-11-30T20:34:44 <jtimon> sdaftuar: thanks
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1318 2015-11-30T21:34:05 <ploopkazoo> can someone eli5 how a hypothetical very large block size would cause problems? if, for example, the size were raised to 1GB, would 1GB blocks magically appear even though there aren't 1GB of transactions?
1319 2015-11-30T21:35:07 <Prattler> they could appear if malicious miner wanted it. You can create transactions in your own block for free, if you want to.
1320 2015-11-30T21:35:53 <Prattler> this is, of course, hypothetical, haven't been such attacks so far, except by Luke-Jr perhaps
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1322 2015-11-30T21:38:52 <ploopkazoo> how is a malicious miner putting transactions in their own block different from any given node making transactions?
1323 2015-11-30T21:39:33 <Prattler> miner's transactions are going into the blockchain and utxo, whereas a regular node has no such power (wihout paying fees)
1324 2015-11-30T21:40:16 <ploopkazoo> ah
1325 2015-11-30T21:40:33 <sipa> ploopkazoo: every node in the network has the process the transactions that miners put into blocks; at some point, the costs for running them may disincentivize people from actually running them
1326 2015-11-30T21:41:06 <ploopkazoo> so if there were no block size limit, a large pool owner could just generate terabytes of valid transactions and put them in their own block to massively inconvenience everyone?
1327 2015-11-30T21:41:14 <sipa> yes
1328 2015-11-30T21:41:26 <Prattler> For example, hypothetically a miner could offer a "backup data on blockchain". They would offload their costs to the network full nodes, profit themselves and destroy bitcoin.
1329 2015-11-30T21:41:55 <sipa> would they do so? maybe not, it is controversial whether there are incentives for that, but there is no need why full nodes would accept that
1330 2015-11-30T21:42:32 <Prattler> ploopkazoo, not only inconvenience, but they would be earning profit themselves and causing financial damage to all full nodes. In theory. Maybe..
1331 2015-11-30T21:42:35 <Prattler> Without any limit.
1332 2015-11-30T21:42:39 <sipa> unfortunately, apart from the trust question, the system works _better_ the more centralized it is
1333 2015-11-30T21:42:56 <ploopkazoo> what are the core devs' opinions on timing and amount of block size limit increase?
1334 2015-11-30T21:43:17 <sipa> there is a conference held in hong kong next week about the topic
1335 2015-11-30T21:43:31 <jouke> This saturday even :)
1336 2015-11-30T21:44:05 <sipa> my personal opinion is that we should merge any proposed change which is uncontroversial
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1338 2015-11-30T21:44:46 <ploopkazoo> is there any data on what percentage of full nodes support BIP 101?
1339 2015-11-30T21:45:06 <Prattler> ploopkazoo, xtnodes.com . Some are stealth BIP 101 nodes though.
1340 2015-11-30T21:45:14 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: we've seen considerable and clear degregation of the system ever at current load levels; so we much act with great caution. IMO dicussion about the block size parameter is a distraction from far more significant and severe issues that we face.
1341 2015-11-30T21:45:50 <jouke> ploopkazoo: https://data.bitcoinity.org/bitcoin/block_version/7d?c=block_version&r=hour&t=a
1342 2015-11-30T21:45:55 <ploopkazoo> gmaxwell: which issues?
1343 2015-11-30T21:46:24 <ploopkazoo> I haven't really been paying attention to Bitcoin for several months now
1344 2015-11-30T21:46:45 <tulip> ploopkazoo: given that today a single block can take a minute to verify, 1GB blocks are clearly going to cause problems.
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1346 2015-11-30T21:46:50 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: Fungibility-- specifically in terms of the incredible amounts of coin blacklisting going on, and the ongoing failure of decenteralization as more and more users stop running nodes and instead use centeralized APIs.
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1348 2015-11-30T21:47:43 <Prattler> gmaxwell, shouldn't it be easier to mix coins as there's more users and more tx capacity on the network?
1349 2015-11-30T21:47:43 <gmaxwell> As well as the centeralization of the mining ecosystem; which has transitioned much most strongly to centeralized physical control of hardware and not just mining pool centeralization as we had in the past.
1350 2015-11-30T21:47:44 <ploopkazoo> I was unaware that blacklisting was happening at any notable rate
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1352 2015-11-30T21:48:51 <Prattler> should be easier to implement blacklisting with 1 kB limit vs 1 MB limit, for example
1353 2015-11-30T21:49:36 <Prattler> 10 kB vs 1 MB let's say
1354 2015-11-30T21:49:51 <gmaxwell> Prattler: all of these attacks focus on centeralized chokepoints. When parties are driven by costs to depend on centeralized APIs, as they are already, then pressure to blacklist needs only be applied at those places-- and thats what we're actually seeing now.
1355 2015-11-30T21:50:27 <ploopkazoo> gmaxwell: centeralized physical control of hardware meaning operations like the multi-petahash Chinese mining warehouses?
1356 2015-11-30T21:51:19 <gmaxwell> Prattler: 1MB is at the level of a half million transactions/day; that is enough that it isn't a visible factor in blacklisting. An important insight is that at either extreme the system doesn't work.
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1358 2015-11-30T21:52:09 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: Yes, for example. (thoug chinese operations are just one of the better known bits of consolidation)
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1360 2015-11-30T21:53:07 <gmaxwell> Today block size plays into that in serveral ways. One is that delays in processing and propagating blocks yield non-linear gains to those who hold more hashpower, making them more profitable, allowing them to acquire even more hashpower while difficuly rises push the rest out.
1361 2015-11-30T21:53:31 <Prattler> gmaxwell, who would be doing the blacklisting at 10 MB block limit let's say? Full nodes runners, miners? If you could elaborate please, wanna understand the point. What's the choke point?
1362 2015-11-30T21:53:32 <gmaxwell> And this is a long term trend that we've seen; which appears to have been greatly amplified by the raise of the soft limit from 250k to 750k, unfortunately.
1363 2015-11-30T21:53:46 <tulip> Prattler: services.
1364 2015-11-30T21:54:05 <ploopkazoo> what do block size and blacklisting have to do with each other?
1365 2015-11-30T21:54:06 <Prattler> services can do that today, what's the difference 1 MB vs 10 MB?
1366 2015-11-30T21:54:37 <Prattler> I don't see the argument for services.
1367 2015-11-30T21:54:38 <gmaxwell> Prattler: there are very few 'full node' runners today relative to the past. It appears to be impossible to find single ordinary merchants that do their own bitcoin payment processing, instead everyone depends on a small number of services.
1368 2015-11-30T21:54:52 <gmaxwell> Prattler: increased node costs have made it impratical for people to go around the services.
1369 2015-11-30T21:54:53 <sipa> ploopkazoo: the harder it is to run a full node and use it to validate yiur own transactions, the more people are incentivzed to just pay one service to do it for them
1370 2015-11-30T21:55:05 <gmaxwell> And even large commercial entities are depending on third party APIs instead of running their own nodes.
1371 2015-11-30T21:56:04 <gmaxwell> Prattler: additionally, there are several large miners talking about varrious kind of blacklisting schemes... which are only viable at the mining level as a result of centeralization there which appears to be in part driven by propagation effects.
1372 2015-11-30T21:56:05 <Prattler> they're not doing that for hardware costs, but for customer service and convenience. So 1 MB or 10 MB doesn't matter at all.
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1374 2015-11-30T21:56:59 <tulip> convenience for the service is related to how difficult it is for them to bother with their own node, if it's expensive and time consuming they will outsource it to their own and their users detriment.
1375 2015-11-30T21:57:02 <Prattler> propagation times are a problem, agreed. But I really see that as the only problem. Still don't understand services.
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1377 2015-11-30T21:58:03 <ploopkazoo> if nodes that blacklist transactions from addresses they don't like are a vast minority, what is the issue? that eventually as individuals without agendas stop running full nodes, blacklisters will become a majority?
1378 2015-11-30T21:58:13 <gmaxwell> Prattler: I'm not sure if you've run a node at commercial scale, it takes effort; and many bitcoin companies do not consider it their domain of expertise; any cost at all is a considerable friction. And it's become completely implausable to run a full node at home or on a low end VPS for many people.
1379 2015-11-30T21:58:45 <sipa> ploopkazoo: the number of nodes is not relevant
1380 2015-11-30T21:58:55 <gmaxwell> (e.g. just running Bitcoin Core blows out the comcast monthly transfer caps, in regions where they've started enforcing those)
1381 2015-11-30T21:58:56 <sipa> ploopkazoo: how much economic activity that relies on them does
1382 2015-11-30T21:59:04 <ploopkazoo> aah
1383 2015-11-30T21:59:06 <Prattler> There would be no barrier of entry for companies to offer full node, wallet, etc services. So that's no way centralized.
1384 2015-11-30T21:59:31 <ploopkazoo> how much economic activity relies on blacklist nodes?
1385 2015-11-30T21:59:34 <tulip> ploopkazoo: if everybody is relying on a remote service for all of their information and storage, it's not up to the user who does blacklisting, it's done on their behalf.
1386 2015-11-30T22:00:04 <Prattler> Hell, if you're worried about it, you should run a full node service yourself and provide it to customers. Problem solved.
1387 2015-11-30T22:00:41 <gmaxwell> Prattler: why would they use it? then you could just steal their coins. The need for trust implies a strong centeralizing force.
1388 2015-11-30T22:00:56 <gmaxwell> And no one can opt out of what mining does.
1389 2015-11-30T22:01:33 <Prattler> Users need to connect to the blockchain somehow. They'd pay you to be their connection, as now they're paying someone else. It's a free market competition.
1390 2015-11-30T22:01:36 <ploopkazoo> wait so, are "blacklist nodes" nodes with a differing protocol that reject transactions from some massive blacklist, or normal nodes that are a part of some service with blacklisting at a higher level that doesn't directly affect the network?
1391 2015-11-30T22:02:13 <tulip> they both have the same effect ultimately.
1392 2015-11-30T22:02:25 <Prattler> Again, I agree about the mininig, the faster blocks propagate, the better for everyone.
1393 2015-11-30T22:02:49 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: you're the only person in here who used that term (blacklist nodes) but whats common right now is blacklisting at a higher level; what some miners are talking about is blacklisting at other levels.
1394 2015-11-30T22:02:50 <ploopkazoo> tulip: if I understand correctly, the former wouldn't really have any affect on people unless they became a majority
1395 2015-11-30T22:03:49 <sipa> ploopkazoo: if you can get 5 services today to implement a particular blacklist it would already affect a majority of bitcoin users, i believe
1396 2015-11-30T22:04:08 <tulip> ploopkazoo: not really, you don't have to completely wipe out a behaviour to make it unfeasible, simply making it uncomfortable enough to make people go with the desired flow of perceived legitimately is enough.
1397 2015-11-30T22:04:11 <Prattler> miners cannot blacklist, or if they do, that's the 51% attack, correct?
1398 2015-11-30T22:04:27 <tulip> miners have free choice of the transactions they include, majority or no.
1399 2015-11-30T22:04:58 <Prattler> if one miner doesn't want my tx, some other miner will. Only way to censor a tx is do a 51% attack.
1400 2015-11-30T22:04:59 <gmaxwell> Prattler: there is no "the 51% attack" usually when people say "the 51% attack" they refer to replacing a chain with another that has conflicting transactions.
1401 2015-11-30T22:05:02 <ploopkazoo> but excluded transactions could then be confirmed by a different miner in subsequent blocks, right?
1402 2015-11-30T22:05:07 <ploopkazoo> ah
1403 2015-11-30T22:05:46 <ploopkazoo> what are some examples of services that implement blacklists?
1404 2015-11-30T22:05:53 <gmaxwell> Right now it takes only 2-3 parties in physical control of hashpower to be a supermajority. And technically only about 33% hashpower is required to change the economics for everyone else and make them operate at a loss (see the selfish mining paper)
1405 2015-11-30T22:06:00 <tulip> ploopkazoo: like I said, you don't have to eliminate something to make it undesirable, simply obstructing something to a high enough degree will turn people away.
1406 2015-11-30T22:06:00 <Prattler> gmaxwell, how does a miner censor a transaction that's already in the blockchain? Invalide the block and build on the previous block. No other way.
1407 2015-11-30T22:06:36 <gmaxwell> Prattler: by prefering blocks that don't contain it. And if you are at least a third of the hashpower and do this, it will be profitable for you and force the miners including the transaction to operate at a loss.
1408 2015-11-30T22:06:37 <Prattler> That's what I mean by 51% attack.
1409 2015-11-30T22:06:55 <gmaxwell> and if you are rolling your income back into more hashpower that means you will grow and they will shrink.
1410 2015-11-30T22:07:10 <Prattler> ok, so that's selfish mining attack or smth. Dunno how you call it.
1411 2015-11-30T22:07:21 <gmaxwell> (or if it's multiple parties making up the 30%, the colluding side will grow and the rest will shrink)
1412 2015-11-30T22:08:06 <gmaxwell> In any case, miners themselves censoring is a near term future risk that exists only because of incredible centeralization which is amplified through node operating costs and propagation effects.
1413 2015-11-30T22:08:10 <gmaxwell> Prattler: Do you mine?
1414 2015-11-30T22:08:19 <Prattler> not at the moment
1415 2015-11-30T22:08:40 <gmaxwell> If you were, would you be in control of your transaction selection?
1416 2015-11-30T22:09:28 <gmaxwell> Am I the only person active in this channel right now that mines? Am I the only person in this channel active right now whos software independantly selects the transactions that go into their blocks?
1417 2015-11-30T22:09:33 <Prattler> I'd delegate my hashpower to a pool which policies I supported.
1418 2015-11-30T22:10:27 <ploopkazoo> gmaxwell: what do you mine with?
1419 2015-11-30T22:10:52 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: SP20s with my own transaction selection (on P2Pool)
1420 2015-11-30T22:11:37 <Prattler> I would solo mine if had great confidence I wouldn't suffer from block propagation rates. So there needs to be headers-first or thin blocks or smth and well tested out solutions. Hopefully they will come.
1421 2015-11-30T22:12:49 <gmaxwell> sadly, p2pool has implemented efficient propagation for years and when it had enough hashrate to measure had easily the lowest orphan rate of any pool.
1422 2015-11-30T22:13:21 <Prattler> yes, I used p2pool 2 years ago and it was great!
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1424 2015-11-30T22:13:45 <sipa> so why didn't p2pool become succesful?
1425 2015-11-30T22:14:18 <ploopkazoo> gmaxwell: what exactly is transaction selection in a non-malicious sense? don't you just include all valid transactions?
1426 2015-11-30T22:15:19 <gmaxwell> sipa: Three reasons, in my expirence (dunno which had the most effects); (1) it's a pain in the ass to get started with, largely because step 1 is start your own full node, (2) Many pieces of hardware came out which were incompatible due to high latency, p2pool forked to be more compatible, but even more crappy hardware was released, (3) pervasive misunderstanding mining as a race, strongly drives
1427 2015-11-30T22:15:25 <gmaxwell> many miners to the largest pools they can find.
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1429 2015-11-30T22:16:45 <gmaxwell> ploopkazoo: sure, More or less: valid, ordered by feerate... and subject to some minimal behavior based filtering for common DOS attacks (e.g. dust payments to those well known private keys).
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1432 2015-11-30T22:17:53 <gmaxwell> I used to mine with a patch that deprioritized address reuse; but I got tired of maintaining it.
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1436 2015-11-30T22:19:05 <gmaxwell> (it resulted in more equitable sharing of space; e.g. some party that self identified as a single party making a lot of transactions at once; it would use their self-identification to give them a fair share; at the cost of some fees to me.)
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1453 2015-11-30T22:32:28 <waxwing> what decides when estimatefee switches to an estimate rather than -1.0? (i'm asking for regtest; i know it can work since i had an estimate coming out at one point)
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1456 2015-11-30T22:37:26 <tulip> waxwing: it means it doesn't have enough information to make an informed decision.
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1458 2015-11-30T22:37:57 <waxwing> tulip: yes, i know. that's not my question.
1459 2015-11-30T22:38:43 <tulip> waxwing: right, sorry.
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1463 2015-11-30T22:43:17 <Luke-Jr> Prattler: I would appreciate if you didn't imply-slander me, thanks.
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1466 2015-11-30T22:44:10 <Prattler> Luke-Jr, did you not use the blockchain to store information?
1467 2015-11-30T22:44:16 <Prattler> non-financial information
1468 2015-11-30T22:44:21 <Luke-Jr> Prattler: nope
1469 2015-11-30T22:44:33 <Luke-Jr> in fact, I'm one of the more vocal devs against that
1470 2015-11-30T22:44:51 <tulip> it's hard to imagine a worse place to try to store information than Bitcoins block chain.
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1472 2015-11-30T22:47:26 <gmaxwell> waxwing: sorry I don't know the exact threshold, but the way ir works is watching mempool transactions to see when they get confirmed. So presumably there must be a mempool.
1473 2015-11-30T22:47:48 <sipa> waxwing: ask morcos :)
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1475 2015-11-30T22:48:27 <waxwing> right. i guess it can still have an estimate after mempool is cleared out though, if there were txs in it earlier? seems like must be as when i queried it a while back pretty sure it was empty.
1476 2015-11-30T22:48:35 <waxwing> but anyway, very edgy edge case i know :)
1477 2015-11-30T22:48:45 <gmaxwell> it carries cached data across restarts.
1478 2015-11-30T22:49:09 <waxwing> k, makes sense
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1480 2015-11-30T22:50:24 <morcos> waxwing: for fee estimates it has to average at least 1 tx per block roughly over the last 500 blocks , so you'll need a bare minimum of 500 txs i think
1481 2015-11-30T22:50:51 <waxwing> morcos: thanks, i'll try that
1482 2015-11-30T22:51:09 <morcos> 500 that have been included in a block that is
1483 2015-11-30T22:51:20 <morcos> and were previously in your mempool
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1485 2015-11-30T22:52:43 <morcos> but yes the data is saved in fee_estimates.dat so you could use that from mainnext and have estimates in regtest i think
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1488 2015-11-30T22:54:40 <waxwing> morcos: ah, nice idea, thanks
1489 2015-11-30T22:59:18 <Prattler> Luke-Jr, I did some education on the subject and learned something knew, I was wrong. Sorry!
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