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42 2015-12-03T01:25:41 <mrkent> Okay I remember reading something about the attack on the OP_CHECKSIG limit or something (to artificially reduce the effective blocksize limit)
43 2015-12-03T01:25:53 <mrkent> Anyone have link to that post?
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337 2015-12-03T12:04:40 <tric3838383838> Hi guys. I am from Cubits, and we tried getting listed on bitcoin.org. So far, nobody helped out with reviewing the wallet, so I wanted to ask for help here. We are a Bitcoin platform, going steady for a year now, with web wallet. In addition, we recently added option to buy Bitcoin at 4500 ATMs in Poland, and Jon Matonis is in our board
338 2015-12-03T12:05:08 <Diablo-D3> tric3838383838: most likely you got ignored because you're doing a web wallet
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340 2015-12-03T12:06:18 <sipa> harding: ^
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342 2015-12-03T12:07:05 <tric3838383838> Yeah, I am aware that it is not a popular choice. On the other hand, others offering similar services got listed in that section. We had no issues for a year now, and we keep user funds in cold storage. I can get CTO to comment if you guys are interested
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363 2015-12-03T12:57:12 <instagibbs> tric3838383838, you may have to ping the thread again. The review process is pretty thourough, but if it's a web wallet the barriers to getting listed will be even higher most likely.
364 2015-12-03T12:58:07 <instagibbs> the only web wallets listed thus far are cross-platform(and probably deprecating) GreenAddress, and other huge VC-backed names.
365 2015-12-03T12:58:20 <instagibbs> also, this is probably #bitcoin
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429 2015-12-03T15:26:25 <jl2012> Why Antpool is not upgrading to BIP65? It is the last major pool to upgrade. Any representative of Antpool here?
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470 2015-12-03T16:08:35 <gmaxwell> jl2012: I heard that they were; they just hadn't yet.
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475 2015-12-03T16:14:10 <jl2012> The adoption of BIP65 is amazingly fast, except for Antpool. Hope it'll be the same for the BIP68 etc later. I guess BIP68 etc is one of the tasks in the after-workshop meetup?
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570 2015-12-03T18:40:09 <gijensen> Is there any reason zapwallettxes and rescan can't be RPC calls? Like if I wrote them would it be as simple as it looks?
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582 2015-12-03T18:52:10 <jonasschnelli> gijensen: for rescan there is a RPC proposal (pull request): https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7061
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584 2015-12-03T18:52:51 <gijensen> jonasschnelli: Thank you
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588 2015-12-03T18:57:25 <jonasschnelli> meeting today or is everyone already in HK?
589 2015-12-03T18:58:02 <wumpus> dunno, I suppose some people are not yet or not going like us
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592 2015-12-03T18:59:43 <wumpus> we can try
593 2015-12-03T18:59:47 <wumpus> #meetingstart
594 2015-12-03T18:59:51 <wumpus> #startmeeting
595 2015-12-03T18:59:51 <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Dec 3 18:59:51 2015 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
596 2015-12-03T18:59:51 <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
597 2015-12-03T19:00:10 <wumpus> anyone topics?
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599 2015-12-03T19:01:26 <jcorgan> bip68-related pull requests?
600 2015-12-03T19:01:44 <jonasschnelli> bip68 is a evergreen here... :)
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602 2015-12-03T19:02:06 <wumpus> yes from last week we have: CLTV activation, BIP68/112 implementation, RBF
603 2015-12-03T19:02:25 <wumpus> action item for CLTV activation was: Post reminder about CLTV deployment next week on social media (btcdrak, 19:28:39)
604 2015-12-03T19:02:52 <btcdrak> wumpus: I did it a couple days ago
605 2015-12-03T19:03:02 <wumpus> awesome
606 2015-12-03T19:03:18 <wumpus> ok, BIP68 it is then
607 2015-12-03T19:03:30 <wumpus> #topic BIP68-related pull requests
608 2015-12-03T19:03:33 <btcdrak> is morcos here?
609 2015-12-03T19:03:36 <gmaxwell> I want to talk briefly about eviction and onion support.
610 2015-12-03T19:03:39 <morcos> yep, justg showed up
611 2015-12-03T19:03:49 <wumpus> action item from last week was Merge BIPs PRs #245 and #248
612 2015-12-03T19:03:57 <btcdrak> wumpus: that was done
613 2015-12-03T19:04:01 <Diablo-D3> wait, wtf?
614 2015-12-03T19:04:03 <wumpus> good
615 2015-12-03T19:04:08 <Diablo-D3> how the hell did we get that many BIPs
616 2015-12-03T19:04:25 <wumpus> we didn't, those refer to pull requests, not to pull numbers
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618 2015-12-03T19:04:56 <btcdrak> wumpus: there is one small correction https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/252
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620 2015-12-03T19:05:08 <btcdrak> if that could be merged it would be dandy.
621 2015-12-03T19:05:12 <morcos> so we're not on the verge of merging 6312 immediately anyway correct?
622 2015-12-03T19:05:25 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: ahh
623 2015-12-03T19:05:30 <morcos> it needs more tested ACKS ?
624 2015-12-03T19:05:31 <morcos> or any
625 2015-12-03T19:05:36 <wumpus> yes
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627 2015-12-03T19:05:39 <btcdrak> morcos: yes
628 2015-12-03T19:05:42 <morcos> i don't want to be the cause of delaying it
629 2015-12-03T19:05:44 <Diablo-D3> wumpus: I was going to say, did I sleep for 10 years or what
630 2015-12-03T19:05:48 <morcos> but i want to throw something out there
631 2015-12-03T19:05:56 <sipa> present, from airport
632 2015-12-03T19:05:57 <wumpus> #action there is one small correction https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/252
633 2015-12-03T19:06:21 <morcos> i'm trying to figure out how to cache and efficiently check BIP68 validity
634 2015-12-03T19:06:22 <btcdrak> morcos: although to be fair, I think we're much closer now. Are we going to leave the CNB optimisations till post merge of #6312?
635 2015-12-03T19:06:37 <wumpus> ok, next topic I guess
636 2015-12-03T19:06:40 <morcos> we'd realized before this is necessary for reorgs, but more importantly its necessary to make CNB fast
637 2015-12-03T19:06:58 <morcos> (sorry i guess i intepreted BIP68 related pulls differently :) )
638 2015-12-03T19:07:10 <btcdrak> wumpus: wait a sec
639 2015-12-03T19:07:14 <morcos> sdaftuar and i are looking at two approaches
640 2015-12-03T19:07:34 <morcos> 1 will probably not change the existing code in 6312 at all (or barely)
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642 2015-12-03T19:07:49 <morcos> the other will refactor LockTime(..) signficiantly
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644 2015-12-03T19:08:10 <sipa> i'd rather see the refactor done uofront
645 2015-12-03T19:08:16 <morcos> I think if we decide the refactored version is better, exactly
646 2015-12-03T19:08:21 <morcos> thats what i was going to say
647 2015-12-03T19:08:33 <btcdrak> sipa: +1
648 2015-12-03T19:08:50 <sipa> so not significantly different code goes into backports
649 2015-12-03T19:08:50 <morcos> ok, so it may be the refactor is not better anyway, but give us a couple of days to try out the two approaches and let people see them
650 2015-12-03T19:09:11 <morcos> sipa: yep, thats what we were discussing
651 2015-12-03T19:09:55 <morcos> ok.. will make sure we ping people when we have something to show then
652 2015-12-03T19:10:10 <btcdrak> morcos: so let's revisit the topic next meeting.
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655 2015-12-03T19:10:18 <morcos> ack
656 2015-12-03T19:10:41 <btcdrak> morcos: if you do make a patch ping me and I'll cherry-pick it into to the PR
657 2015-12-03T19:11:17 <btcdrak> so I guess the action point is look into refactoring for CNB optimisation
658 2015-12-03T19:11:44 <wumpus> #action look into refactoring for CNB optimisation
659 2015-12-03T19:12:01 <morcos> yeah, but since the code is also for backports that doesn't care about cnb optimisation i think we need to make sure the refactor is reasonable standing on its own as well (and b/c its consensus code!)
660 2015-12-03T19:12:13 <btcdrak> morcos: ack
661 2015-12-03T19:12:27 <sipa> i believe that code that works on master/0.12 will be easier to trivially backport than the other way around
662 2015-12-03T19:13:26 <morcos> sipa: sure but interesting to think about the data that we'll be getting out of the refactor, these heights and times and so forth, isn't useful in backports
663 2015-12-03T19:13:56 <sipa> agree
664 2015-12-03T19:14:16 <morcos> new topic PR 7062?
665 2015-12-03T19:14:29 <morcos> i know ppl are going to conference now
666 2015-12-03T19:14:31 <btcdrak> morcos: ack
667 2015-12-03T19:14:39 <wumpus> gmaxwell proposed a next topic already
668 2015-12-03T19:14:40 <gmaxwell> I believe we've seen ~no network visbile use or user comments on backports 0.10.x; so I believe we should backport no further than 0.11.x anymore. (and perhaps announce pending end of support on 0.10 on the list to bring anyone out of the woodwork)
669 2015-12-03T19:14:47 <wumpus> #topic eviction and onions
670 2015-12-03T19:14:51 <morcos> but sooner we merge that into 0.12, the more test coverage it gets.. (ok sorry, all iw anted to say)
671 2015-12-03T19:14:53 *** wh092m has joined #bitcoin-dev
672 2015-12-03T19:15:15 <btcdrak> gmaxwell: yes
673 2015-12-03T19:15:32 <gmaxwell> Brief, w/ auto onion support we'll now have a lot of potentially hostile localhost peers, which our eviction code will currently not evict. #7082 addresses this, but sipa caught me making a locking naughty move.
674 2015-12-03T19:15:48 <wumpus> we usually keep to one version back, support for 0.10 stops as soon as 0.12 is released
675 2015-12-03T19:16:11 <wumpus> (excluding super serious bugs and security issues I guess)
676 2015-12-03T19:16:15 <gmaxwell> I updated to fix it with a kind of gross global lock. But looking around, I see that we frequently update data in node objects with no lock protection. (e.g. pingtimes)
677 2015-12-03T19:16:52 <btcdrak> wumpus: let's post that to the mailing list so end users are clear about it.
678 2015-12-03T19:16:59 <btcdrak> wumpus: I was thinking we need a clear EOL statement somewhere
679 2015-12-03T19:17:10 <gmaxwell> I think its somewhat important to do something about the localhost connections w/ eviction, even in 0.12, to prevent the HS support from bein a liability.
680 2015-12-03T19:17:15 *** neha has quit IRC
681 2015-12-03T19:17:21 <sipa> gmaxwell: i know how to fix that
682 2015-12-03T19:17:26 *** wh092m is now known as Drona
683 2015-12-03T19:17:37 <wumpus> btcdrak: well it used to be the case that luke-jr was backporting things to older versions, in general other people may still bother
684 2015-12-03T19:17:51 <gmaxwell> I don't really care what, if I'm getting no comments on that PR because people hate that; lemme know. If someone wants to suggest how to fix the locking mess without the gross global lock I just updated the PR to add, let me know.
685 2015-12-03T19:17:56 *** Drona is now known as Guest43702
686 2015-12-03T19:17:59 *** t7 has joined #bitcoin-dev
687 2015-12-03T19:18:02 <gmaxwell> sipa: great.
688 2015-12-03T19:18:06 <btcdrak> What PR are we talking about now?
689 2015-12-03T19:18:12 <gmaxwell> 7082
690 2015-12-03T19:18:14 <gmaxwell> Thats all I had for that.
691 2015-12-03T19:18:38 <wumpus> we can still disable the auto HS stuff by default if it's risky
692 2015-12-03T19:19:02 <gmaxwell> I think a very minimal change derisks it, even less than 7082. (7082 without the last commit, basically)
693 2015-12-03T19:19:04 <wumpus> the only reason it's enabled by default is because I never got any pushback on that
694 2015-12-03T19:19:04 <cfields> gmaxwell: could you describe the issue with nasty localhost peers? I'm not following
695 2015-12-03T19:19:33 *** neha has joined #bitcoin-dev
696 2015-12-03T19:19:59 <gmaxwell> cfields: localhost peers are never evicted; so as soon as you show up on HS someone can prevent anyone else from connecting to you trivially. (just open 125 connections and respond to pings)
697 2015-12-03T19:20:06 <wumpus> #action take a look at #7082
698 2015-12-03T19:20:24 <gmaxwell> thanks.
699 2015-12-03T19:20:48 <jonasschnelli> and there is no other way to distinct between real localhost connections and tor hs localhost connections?
700 2015-12-03T19:20:51 <wumpus> there's already plenty of people that run HS nodes so that is an issue independent of whether auto HS support will be disabled
701 2015-12-03T19:20:59 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes, use whitebind
702 2015-12-03T19:21:03 *** agricocb has quit IRC
703 2015-12-03T19:21:09 <sipa> jonasschnelli: we could restrict the no-evict behaviour to whitelisted nodes
704 2015-12-03T19:21:11 *** agricocb has joined #bitcoin-dev
705 2015-12-03T19:21:18 <sipa> but that may break existing software
706 2015-12-03T19:21:21 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: you can whitebind, but that has other effects like force relaying all transactions even redundantly.
707 2015-12-03T19:21:44 <jonasschnelli> why to we special threat localhost in the first place?
708 2015-12-03T19:21:51 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: because of old
709 2015-12-03T19:22:05 <wumpus> if it was decided now, we'd only do it for specially whitelisted nodes
710 2015-12-03T19:22:06 <cfields> gmaxwell: got it now, thanks
711 2015-12-03T19:22:08 <sipa> jonasschnelli: because local software was historically trusted
712 2015-12-03T19:22:17 <sipa> but tor connections aren't really
713 2015-12-03T19:22:22 <gmaxwell> 7082 does not evict whitelisted peers. It removes the special treatment in eviction; and trusts that the fact that eviction does not evict the peers with the 8 lowest ping times, to protect local peers.
714 2015-12-03T19:22:28 <sipa> HS support was only added in 0.6 iirc
715 2015-12-03T19:22:43 *** alex_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
716 2015-12-03T19:22:58 <gmaxwell> We still have several other bits of excessive trust of local peers, I think; but this was the most obvious.
717 2015-12-03T19:23:09 <wumpus> in general, P2P connecting software will be able to cope with being disconnected/evicted
718 2015-12-03T19:23:35 <wumpus> gmaxwell: sounds good to me
719 2015-12-03T19:23:44 *** JackH has quit IRC
720 2015-12-03T19:23:52 <gmaxwell> So long has you have less than 8 local peers, and they respond to pings fast just once, they'll still get protected from eviction in 7082.
721 2015-12-03T19:23:56 *** noamh has joined #bitcoin-dev
722 2015-12-03T19:24:06 <wumpus> in the long term we should encourage using whitelisted for special peers
723 2015-12-03T19:24:08 <wumpus> local or not
724 2015-12-03T19:24:14 <sipa> agree
725 2015-12-03T19:24:15 <jonasschnelli> +1!
726 2015-12-03T19:24:24 <jonasschnelli> I think we should take https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7082/files#diff-9a82240fe7dfe86564178691cc57f2f1L886 in
727 2015-12-03T19:24:48 *** afk11 has joined #bitcoin-dev
728 2015-12-03T19:25:14 <wumpus> #action look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7082/files#diff-9a82240fe7dfe86564178691cc57f2f1L886
729 2015-12-03T19:25:15 <jonasschnelli> i mean remove the if (node->addr.IsLocal()) protection at all
730 2015-12-03T19:25:20 <wumpus> any other topics?
731 2015-12-03T19:25:37 <sipa> topic: 0.12 party
732 2015-12-03T19:25:39 <sipa> :p
733 2015-12-03T19:25:54 <btcdrak> +1
734 2015-12-03T19:25:54 <cfields> i'd like to quickly discuss the HK dev meetup
735 2015-12-03T19:25:54 <wumpus> lol :)
736 2015-12-03T19:25:54 <jonasschnelli> hah!
737 2015-12-03T19:25:59 <wumpus> #topic HK dev meetup
738 2015-12-03T19:26:04 * sipa will be in HK in 14 hours
739 2015-12-03T19:26:11 <cfields> everyone who's in hk, come to the dev meetup :)
740 2015-12-03T19:26:13 <cfields> </topic>
741 2015-12-03T19:26:24 <jonasschnelli> ;-)
742 2015-12-03T19:26:28 <cfields> sec, i'll like the mail thread
743 2015-12-03T19:26:37 <wumpus> useful information may be: where, when etc
744 2015-12-03T19:26:57 <sipa> cfields: you'll "like" it, is it on facebook?
745 2015-12-03T19:27:01 <morcos> sorry to be missing it!
746 2015-12-03T19:27:07 <cfields> wumpus: getting there, discussion went faster than i expected. 1 sec :)
747 2015-12-03T19:27:16 <wumpus> twitter has 'likes' now too :')
748 2015-12-03T19:27:22 <cfields> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011712.html
749 2015-12-03T19:27:25 <morcos> we shoudl add on github
750 2015-12-03T19:27:30 *** afk11 has quit IRC
751 2015-12-03T19:27:41 <cfields> Dec 8/9, 8am-?
752 2015-12-03T19:27:54 <wumpus> #action all go to HK dev meeting if you're around https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011712.html Dec 8/9, 8am-?
753 2015-12-03T19:27:56 <cfields> same place as the conference. More info at the link above
754 2015-12-03T19:28:17 *** noamh has quit IRC
755 2015-12-03T19:28:22 <cfields> hope everyone can make it. Plan it just to have unstructured dev time.
756 2015-12-03T19:28:55 * jonasschnelli can't go to HK
757 2015-12-03T19:28:56 <btcdrak> with lots of beer
758 2015-12-03T19:29:06 <cfields> If anyone wants to suggest some topics ahead of time, I'm happy to start a list. Otherwise, whatever comes up on its own
759 2015-12-03T19:29:08 <cfields> :(
760 2015-12-03T19:29:09 <wumpus> any other topics?
761 2015-12-03T19:29:09 <sipa> :(
762 2015-12-03T19:29:23 *** neha has quit IRC
763 2015-12-03T19:29:35 <sdaftuar> topic suggestion: opt-in RBF shoudl have a BIP?
764 2015-12-03T19:29:54 <wumpus> #topic BIP for opt-in RBF
765 2015-12-03T19:29:56 <btcdrak> not really, it is just policy code
766 2015-12-03T19:29:56 <jonasschnelli> definitively!
767 2015-12-03T19:30:12 <sdaftuar> i think it's unfortunate that the only documentation for what wallet writers should do is in a single mailnig list post...
768 2015-12-03T19:30:28 <gmaxwell> Sounds reasonable.
769 2015-12-03T19:30:28 <wumpus> depends on whether someone is volunteering I suppose
770 2015-12-03T19:30:28 <sipa> standardness has been covered before in BIPs
771 2015-12-03T19:30:41 <harding> +1 for a BIP. I'll write something and coordinate with petertodd
772 2015-12-03T19:30:42 <btcdrak> sdaftaur: I think we should add this FAQ to the release notes https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/
773 2015-12-03T19:30:45 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
774 2015-12-03T19:30:49 <sipa> well better communication with wallet authors definitely makes sense
775 2015-12-03T19:30:49 <morcos> its also very intricate policy that is likely to be handled in the exact same way by a high proportion of the network
776 2015-12-03T19:30:51 <wumpus> awesome harding
777 2015-12-03T19:30:52 <sdaftuar> awesome, thansk harding
778 2015-12-03T19:31:27 <wumpus> #action harding will coordinate with petertodd about opt-in RBF BIP
779 2015-12-03T19:31:59 <wumpus> next topic?
780 2015-12-03T19:32:20 <sipa> Segmentation faul
781 2015-12-03T19:32:37 <cfields> red flag
782 2015-12-03T19:32:38 <wumpus> #action FAQ useful for BIP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/
783 2015-12-03T19:32:47 <gmaxwell> lol
784 2015-12-03T19:33:26 <btcdrak> #link https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3urm8o/optin_rbf_is_misunderstood_ask_questions_about_it/
785 2015-12-03T19:34:33 <wumpus> ok, short meeting this time :) have fun in HK everyone that is going
786 2015-12-03T19:35:06 <jonasschnelli> Yes. Have fun. And enjoy the warm weather...
787 2015-12-03T19:35:10 <wumpus> #endmeeting
788 2015-12-03T19:35:10 <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Dec 3 19:35:10 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
789 2015-12-03T19:35:10 <lightningbot`> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-03-18.59.html
790 2015-12-03T19:35:10 <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-03-18.59.txt
791 2015-12-03T19:35:10 <lightningbot`> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-03-18.59.log.html
792 2015-12-03T19:35:53 *** neha has joined #bitcoin-dev
793 2015-12-03T19:36:47 <gmaxwell> I didn't want to dive to into it in the meeting; but if people are around; so I've been observing abusive behavior with the mempool p2p message. There are some nodes connecting to everyone and constantly polling it at high speed.
794 2015-12-03T19:37:26 <gijensen> How can one detect / avoid this?
795 2015-12-03T19:37:30 <wumpus> yes I noticed too...
796 2015-12-03T19:37:47 <gmaxwell> I don't know if their motivation is a upstream bandwdith exhaustion DOS attack, or if they are trying to bypass the batch transmission to determine tx origins, or what. But it sends several megabytes in response right now, on nodes with a big mempool.
797 2015-12-03T19:38:17 <gmaxwell> There are SPV clients that query multiple times, unfortunately (breadwallet for example).
798 2015-12-03T19:38:17 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: is the mempool p2p message "in use"? Should we configure that p2p message type and disable it by default?
799 2015-12-03T19:38:39 <gmaxwell> so right now most SPV clients call it on connect to find unconfirmed transactions they were sent before they got online.
800 2015-12-03T19:38:43 <wumpus> jonasschnelli's pull is useful to track bandwidth usage per message
801 2015-12-03T19:39:25 <gmaxwell> The reason some query it multiple times is because they update their bloom filters as they add more keys to their wallets (and for some reason need to deal with time travling people sending them funds...)
802 2015-12-03T19:39:26 <wumpus> gijensen: most straightforward is to disable the message
803 2015-12-03T19:39:32 <jonasschnelli> (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6589)
804 2015-12-03T19:39:36 <wumpus> gijensen: you can do that locally, but it's no solution to merge :)
805 2015-12-03T19:39:38 <gmaxwell> jgarzik (who created the message suggested disabling it.
806 2015-12-03T19:39:51 <gmaxwell> )
807 2015-12-03T19:40:03 <gmaxwell> But since it's used I don't think thats a cheap option.
808 2015-12-03T19:40:06 <jonasschnelli> disable with a arg to enable?
809 2015-12-03T19:40:07 <gijensen> wumpus, jonasschnelli thanks!
810 2015-12-03T19:40:24 <gmaxwell> I proposed something complex; but it inspired a nasty rant by hearn.
811 2015-12-03T19:40:55 <instagibbs> was that the PR you posted a few days ago?
812 2015-12-03T19:40:57 <wumpus> gmaxwell: that means you're on the right way *ducks*
813 2015-12-03T19:41:22 <jonasschnelli> or we could add the p2p mempool outbound traffic to the maxuploadtarget rules
814 2015-12-03T19:41:23 <gmaxwell> My proposal is: have it only work with the top 8k feerate sorted transactions; have it use the inv filter to remove dupes; and to only return entries that have been in the mempool for more than a certian amount of time.
815 2015-12-03T19:41:46 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I have a patch that does that, I could PR.
816 2015-12-03T19:42:00 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: that is sensible in any case
817 2015-12-03T19:42:18 <gmaxwell> but it's not really a fix; and if we did the thing I suggested in the PR; I don't think it's needed.
818 2015-12-03T19:42:19 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: this would allow to keep the original behavior while reducing it's traffic consumption.
819 2015-12-03T19:42:31 <jonasschnelli> the 8k feerate proposal would slightly change the protocol.
820 2015-12-03T19:42:34 <gmaxwell> (since returning at most 8k entries doesn't use much bandwidth... and the known filtering .. filters.
821 2015-12-03T19:42:49 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: well the other proposed 'fix' is to disable the command completely, gmaxwell's is already a compromise
822 2015-12-03T19:42:56 *** cj_cj has joined #bitcoin-dev
823 2015-12-03T19:43:22 <gmaxwell> I don't think we should have a p2p message that results in multiple megabytes of transmission with a single request.
824 2015-12-03T19:43:25 <wumpus> I think it's unreasonable to expect nodes to cough up their *entire* mempool
825 2015-12-03T19:43:29 <wumpus> it is privacy sensitive as well
826 2015-12-03T19:43:40 <jonasschnelli> Agree with wumpus
827 2015-12-03T19:43:43 <cfields> agreed
828 2015-12-03T19:43:48 <wumpus> I don't think I was aware of it when the mempool message was introduced, otherwsie I'd probably have pushed back
829 2015-12-03T19:43:51 <jonasschnelli> The SPV wallets will find other ways *duck*
830 2015-12-03T19:44:14 <gmaxwell> There was pushback on the message in fact but it was pretty mild. I think it wouldn't have happened if people realized the privacy problem with it.
831 2015-12-03T19:44:15 <wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed
832 2015-12-03T19:44:52 <jonasschnelli> limit the amount of mempool MB responses by time and node?
833 2015-12-03T19:45:00 <gmaxwell> So in my patch, I picked 8k pretty randomly as "a couple blocks worth", for lack of a better idea.
834 2015-12-03T19:45:10 <cfields> jonasschnelli: that was my thought as well
835 2015-12-03T19:45:11 <wumpus> so if we can somehow neuter the mempool message to be less harmful from a bandwidth and privacy perspective, that sounds good, and is probably more acceptable then deprecating it completely
836 2015-12-03T19:45:29 <wumpus> (as gmaxwell's patch does)
837 2015-12-03T19:45:35 <jonasschnelli> maybe both would be usefull.
838 2015-12-03T19:45:55 <jonasschnelli> If the current abusive behavior is critical, we need a fix without disabling something over an arg or so
839 2015-12-03T19:46:04 <gmaxwell> Yea, I _think_ I achieved that. I went and talked to breadwallet about their multiple requests (to figure out why they were making them)
840 2015-12-03T19:46:08 *** alex_ has quit IRC
841 2015-12-03T19:46:22 *** alex_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
842 2015-12-03T19:46:43 *** alex_ has quit IRC
843 2015-12-03T19:47:15 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: so far, it is only critcial to people running nodes with only a few megabits up... the traffic was pretty much totally knocking out my internet at home.
844 2015-12-03T19:47:24 *** btc_panhandler has quit IRC
845 2015-12-03T19:47:26 <jonasschnelli> I read breadwallets source code and just checked it. It seems like they checking if a broadcasted tx was recieved by sending the mempool p2p msg
846 2015-12-03T19:48:05 <jonasschnelli> no.. wait
847 2015-12-03T19:48:08 <gmaxwell> oh interesting; they didn't tell me that when I asked. So much for asking.
848 2015-12-03T19:48:15 <gijensen> Is there not a better way to accomplish that?
849 2015-12-03T19:48:20 <wumpus> is that necessary? we send a reject of a transaction is not accepted right?
850 2015-12-03T19:48:40 <jonasschnelli> no.. i was wrong.
851 2015-12-03T19:48:56 <jonasschnelli> the update the filter, then dispatch the mempool p2p msg
852 2015-12-03T19:48:59 <gmaxwell> in any case they do send more than one.
853 2015-12-03T19:49:02 *** alex_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
854 2015-12-03T19:49:24 *** waxwing is now known as waxwing2
855 2015-12-03T19:49:35 <gijensen> What did they tell you when you asked?
856 2015-12-03T19:49:38 <gmaxwell> and effectively other SPV clients do-- because they don't stay connected forever, they have short liftimes and always pull.
857 2015-12-03T19:49:41 <wumpus> this again shows that any messages not strictly required for node P2P traffic are DoS liabilities
858 2015-12-03T19:49:51 <gmaxwell> gijensen: what it does; as jonasschnelli corrected; they do it when they update the filter.
859 2015-12-03T19:50:01 <gijensen> Oh okay, thanks
860 2015-12-03T19:50:49 <gmaxwell> in any case, delivery of an unconfirmed transaction isn't guarenteed in the first place.
861 2015-12-03T19:51:59 <jonasschnelli> would it be to harsh to disabled the mempool p2p msg when the maxuploadtraget has been reached?
862 2015-12-03T19:52:08 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: no
863 2015-12-03T19:52:20 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I have a commit to do that.
864 2015-12-03T19:52:29 <jonasschnelli> no response, empty response or a disconnect?
865 2015-12-03T19:52:30 <gmaxwell> I think it's not needed if the amount returned is limited though.
866 2015-12-03T19:52:44 <gmaxwell> I disconnect in mine. but maybe just ignoring would be best.
867 2015-12-03T19:52:44 <wumpus> just don't respond to it
868 2015-12-03T19:53:05 <gmaxwell> okay changing.
869 2015-12-03T19:53:34 <wumpus> disconnecting makes sense if you don't expect anything useful from nodes sending the message after it
870 2015-12-03T19:53:58 <wumpus> full nodes never send it right now so at this point I suppose it makes snese
871 2015-12-03T19:54:22 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
872 2015-12-03T19:54:23 <jonasschnelli> But how would the SPV wallet react?
873 2015-12-03T19:54:24 <gmaxwell> I wonder if spv clients poll the mempool from all peers, I think they do, I've never seen one _not_ send a mempool request while I was watching.
874 2015-12-03T19:54:30 *** wraithm has joined #bitcoin-dev
875 2015-12-03T19:54:36 <jonasschnelli> Would a disconnect not be better,.. so the SPV wallet can go to another node and try?
876 2015-12-03T19:55:05 <wumpus> but what if it's not a SPV wallet? what if you have a (theoretical) full node that sends the message, to collect transactions?
877 2015-12-03T19:55:21 <wumpus> right now the assumption is valid
878 2015-12-03T19:55:40 <wumpus> but there have been ideas to pre-fill the mempool using other nodes mempools
879 2015-12-03T19:55:48 <gmaxwell> I think the only think to ask is it better for the peer to disconnect them.
880 2015-12-03T19:55:51 <wumpus> so the message is not necessarily only for SPVs
881 2015-12-03T19:56:56 <gmaxwell> wumpus: sipa and phantomcircuit both do this during testing. though it takes like ... forever to get the whole thing now. like an hour.
882 2015-12-03T19:57:02 <gmaxwell> (from a node with a big mempool)
883 2015-12-03T19:57:27 <gmaxwell> mempool request sends invs, so you can't even tell which invs were the response to the request.
884 2015-12-03T19:57:27 <wumpus> right, it gets quite confusing to behavior based on assumptions on by whom a message is used
885 2015-12-03T19:57:58 <gmaxwell> I don't think we should ever use this p2p message for mempool syncing. We should have functionality for mempool syncing, but we can add a new message.
886 2015-12-03T19:58:18 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
887 2015-12-03T19:58:19 *** Guest43702 has quit IRC
888 2015-12-03T19:58:29 <jonasschnelli> But should the SPV response be tiny because of the BF?
889 2015-12-03T19:58:44 *** karelk has quit IRC
890 2015-12-03T19:58:45 <jonasschnelli> shouldn't
891 2015-12-03T19:58:55 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
892 2015-12-03T19:58:58 <wumpus> yes, but from a DoS perspective that's even worse
893 2015-12-03T19:59:17 <jonasschnelli> fully agreed.
894 2015-12-03T19:59:34 <wumpus> (not from a bandwidth one, agreed)
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896 2015-12-03T19:59:48 <jonasschnelli> I see the problem, breadwallet (and probably other), update the filter whenever someone create a new address,.. then get queriy the mempool of n nodes.
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902 2015-12-03T20:01:28 <wumpus> gmaxwell: but a new message for mempool syncing will likely have the same issues
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904 2015-12-03T20:02:45 <wumpus> (unless it has the same adapted behavior to only return the most important part)
905 2015-12-03T20:02:54 <gmaxwell> wumpus: nah, it would be defined to only work with at most a certian size, defined to give feerate order, defined to respond in a message and not random invs, defined to give data on delay. etc.
906 2015-12-03T20:03:32 <gmaxwell> and potentially use IBLT sync, but I haven't yet been able to measure the performance of set reconcillation on this problem; by rusty's calculations it should work pretty well.
907 2015-12-03T20:03:51 <wumpus> even returning a random selection would be useful I suppose, it can ask multiple nodes to get a more complete picture
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910 2015-12-03T20:04:32 <morcos> my 2 cents are i don't find it that useful for testing mempool related pulls. i'd be happy to see it go. not sure what about the SPV issues
911 2015-12-03T20:04:42 <jgarzik> damned time zones.
912 2015-12-03T20:04:50 <jgarzik> who invented them and why?
913 2015-12-03T20:04:58 <jonasschnelli> haha
914 2015-12-03T20:05:07 <gmaxwell> jgarzik: set your clocks to utc and avoid that problem... thats what I do.
915 2015-12-03T20:05:08 <wumpus> right, for testing it's better to use RPC commands morcos
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917 2015-12-03T20:05:30 <jgarzik> gmaxwell, I do that for all my VPS's... should do for local too :)
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919 2015-12-03T20:05:48 <wumpus> good idea gmaxwell
920 2015-12-03T20:07:05 <jonasschnelli> morcos: I guess the SPV issue is: how to get wallet releated tx when you update the filter (after creating a new key).
921 2015-12-03T20:07:28 <wumpus> though I think there is some sense in timezones, DST on the other hand can't wait for it to be consigned to the dustbin of history
922 2015-12-03T20:07:56 <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: thing is, unless the sender has a time machine or there are multiple copies of the same wallet running; theyre couldn't exist any matching transactions yet.
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925 2015-12-03T20:08:34 <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: heh. Good point. :)
926 2015-12-03T20:08:41 <jonasschnelli> Unless its a bip32 re-creation?
927 2015-12-03T20:08:46 <sipa> jonasschnelli: when you create a new keuly, there cannot be any transaction to it
928 2015-12-03T20:08:47 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I guess when importing a key or so
929 2015-12-03T20:09:03 <gmaxwell> in any case, my PR is fine for that use.
930 2015-12-03T20:09:09 <wumpus> yes
931 2015-12-03T20:09:12 <sipa> yeah, it is useful for importing a key, but that inevitably needs a rescan, not just mempool resync
932 2015-12-03T20:09:42 <gmaxwell> because the response is filtered you can call it often too, to make up for the delay.
933 2015-12-03T20:09:45 <jonasschnelli> right... Breadwallet probably needs to disable the mempool check after updating the filter because of a new generated address
934 2015-12-03T20:09:55 <jonasschnelli> but better threat the node side
935 2015-12-03T20:10:37 <wumpus> yes no matter what they do... the node side still has to mitigate the DoS potential of the message
936 2015-12-03T20:10:57 <cfields> oh, speaking of tor, i noticed something yesterday. wumpus: did you ever notice tor preferring !streamisolation via socks5? On my local machine, given the options for auth/no auth, tor selects no auth (and !streamisolation as a result)
937 2015-12-03T20:11:30 <cfields> docs hint at an option for that behavior, but it's supposed to be disabled by default
938 2015-12-03T20:11:52 <wumpus> cfields: you mean at the tor side or the bitcoin side?
939 2015-12-03T20:12:08 <cfields> wumpus: bitcoin's connection to the proxy
940 2015-12-03T20:12:49 *** c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
941 2015-12-03T20:13:34 <cfields> wumpus: when connecting to the proxy, you give it a list of acceptable forms of auth. we give it "none or user/pass". It then replies with its preference and you use that mode. My testing shows that it always replies with "none" if you list "none" as an option
942 2015-12-03T20:13:35 <wumpus> cfields: I'm quite sure our stream isolation works? TOR offers two authentication options: NONE and PASSWORD, we pick PASSWORD if we can and send a random user/pass
943 2015-12-03T20:14:15 <wumpus> cfields: huh! I tested it extensively when I worked on that pull
944 2015-12-03T20:14:18 <cfields> wumpus: not doubting that it works, only wondering why i see that behavior.
945 2015-12-03T20:14:18 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I may continue on 0.10 once you're done with it, since that is still my main wallet
946 2015-12-03T20:14:48 <cfields> (and, if we should reject "none" if -streamisolation is on, and disconnect instead)
947 2015-12-03T20:15:03 <cfields> wumpus: maybe it's my old tor version?
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951 2015-12-03T20:17:04 <wumpus> cfields: does your tor version support stream isolation?
952 2015-12-03T20:17:23 <cfields> wumpus: yes. if i remove the "none" option and give it only "auth", it requests auth.
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955 2015-12-03T20:18:10 <wumpus> let me try with -debug=proxy ...
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958 2015-12-03T20:19:23 <wumpus> 2015-12-03 20:19:15 SOCKS5 sending proxy authentication 2952828871:1412341242 works for me
959 2015-12-03T20:19:54 <wumpus> probably your tor version, or an configuration issue at the tor side
960 2015-12-03T20:21:02 <cfields> yes, -debug=proxy doesn't show that here. must be local indeed.
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964 2015-12-03T20:22:16 <cfields> wumpus: that behavior's deceiving, though. if isolation is requested but not used, i think disconnecting would be the more reasonable expectation?
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966 2015-12-03T20:22:42 <wumpus> what you could do is try to switch the methods? put 0x02 first then 0x00
967 2015-12-03T20:22:50 <wumpus> cfields: that'll mess with "auto detection" badly
968 2015-12-03T20:22:52 <cfields> same result, had the same thought :)
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970 2015-12-03T20:23:31 <cfields> i'll see if i can track down when the behavior changed
971 2015-12-03T20:23:33 <wumpus> the reason for implementing it this way is that this still works with non-tor proxies
972 2015-12-03T20:23:45 <wumpus> which is the only reason why it could be enabled by default
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974 2015-12-03T20:24:12 <wumpus> I guess you could add an explicit proxyrandomize=force option that disconnects if it can't do it
975 2015-12-03T20:24:18 <cfields> wumpus: what if the non-tor proxy accepts auth as well as none? surely a random user/pass would fail in that case
976 2015-12-03T20:24:25 <wumpus> but I'm not so sure that's so useful, right now it's pretty much 'best effort'
977 2015-12-03T20:24:42 <wumpus> cfields: sure, *except* in that case, but remember we don't support auth at all
978 2015-12-03T20:24:51 <wumpus> cfields: there's always -proxyrandomize=0
979 2015-12-03T20:25:17 <wumpus> I'd really prefer to leave it as it
980 2015-12-03T20:25:22 <cfields> ok. just trying to weigh expectations vs results.
981 2015-12-03T20:27:32 <wumpus> if you value your privacy don't use a very old tor version, they have more bugs
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983 2015-12-03T20:28:59 <wumpus> and as said I'm not against adding a -proxyrandomize=force option, just can't make it default
984 2015-12-03T20:29:58 <cfields> ok
985 2015-12-03T20:30:23 <gmaxwell> Is anyone around that knows, cares, anything about the versionbits BIP? I want to steal a bit.
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987 2015-12-03T20:30:42 <morcos> wumpus: Just for the record. There is a comparison of unsigned ints in GetMinRelayFee that is comparing an underflow now that DEFAULT_BLOCK_PRIORITY_SIZE = 0. This has the same effect has removing GetMinRelayFee which is what we're going to do anyway. So nothing to be done.
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989 2015-12-03T20:31:07 <morcos> But just wanted to point out that the code was structured in such a way that a change to a DEFAULT caused a buggy comparison
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992 2015-12-03T20:32:10 <wumpus> morcos: what is the bug?
993 2015-12-03T20:32:36 <gmaxwell> main.cpp~: if (nBytes < (DEFAULT_BLOCK_PRIORITY_SIZE - 1000))
994 2015-12-03T20:32:37 <morcos> if (nBytes < (DEFAULT_BLOCK_PRIORITY_SIZE - 1000))
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996 2015-12-03T20:33:29 <wumpus> ouch
997 2015-12-03T20:33:32 * wumpus curses C again for not trapping on integer overflows
998 2015-12-03T20:33:53 <gmaxwell> policy/policy.h:static const unsigned int DEFAULT_BLOCK_PRIORITY_SIZE = 0;
999 2015-12-03T20:33:55 <sdaftuar> yeah we were wondering why the rpc tests didn't all break after the value was set (it looks like that code should stop all free transactions from the mempool)
1000 2015-12-03T20:33:55 <gmaxwell> thats unsigned.
1001 2015-12-03T20:34:00 <gmaxwell> so it's not undefined.
1002 2015-12-03T20:34:24 <morcos> did i misuese the term underflow?
1003 2015-12-03T20:34:28 <morcos> misuse
1004 2015-12-03T20:34:30 <wumpus> morcos: no
1005 2015-12-03T20:34:47 <wumpus> it's an underflow, whether it is defined is just language lawyerism :)
1006 2015-12-03T20:34:48 <gmaxwell> Your use is fine, but I was expecting undefined behavior.
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1008 2015-12-03T20:35:20 <wumpus> if it was undefined the compiler could give a warning
1009 2015-12-03T20:36:05 <sipa> indeed, seems unsigned integers are just defined as doing arithmetic modulo 2^32 (apart from division?)
1010 2015-12-03T20:36:26 <sdaftuar> funny thing about division that i learned recently...
1011 2015-12-03T20:36:48 <sdaftuar> have you looked at what CFeeRate does if you pass in a negative fee?
1012 2015-12-03T20:36:53 <morcos> anyway, like i said, no reason to do anything now, the last commit from 7062 removes the function anyway, and that is the same as the current state
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1014 2015-12-03T20:37:37 <wumpus> what I find strangest about " if (nBytes < (DEFAULT_BLOCK_PRIORITY_SIZE - 1000))" is that is abuses a default
1015 2015-12-03T20:37:55 <wumpus> it's supposed to be default for a parameter, not used to compare against
1016 2015-12-03T20:38:11 <morcos> yeah, thats why we just now noticed, this, when sdaftuar said,hmm the change we made to RPC tests wouldn't have actually affected that
1017 2015-12-03T20:38:12 <sdaftuar> yes!
1018 2015-12-03T20:38:39 <sdaftuar> CFeeRate::CFeeRate(const CAmount& nFeePaid, size_t nSize)
1019 2015-12-03T20:38:39 <sdaftuar> {
1020 2015-12-03T20:38:39 <sdaftuar> if (nSize > 0)
1021 2015-12-03T20:38:39 <sdaftuar> nSatoshisPerK = nFeePaid*1000/nSize;
1022 2015-12-03T20:38:50 <wumpus> sipa: division modulo 2^32 would be interesting but probably not what people want :)
1023 2015-12-03T20:39:06 <sdaftuar> so on a platform where size_t is 8 bytes, this doesn't work with negative numbers
1024 2015-12-03T20:39:22 <sipa> oh wow
1025 2015-12-03T20:39:31 <sdaftuar> yeah it's troubling
1026 2015-12-03T20:40:00 <wumpus> why would you use it with negative numbers?
1027 2015-12-03T20:40:10 <sdaftuar> prioritisetransaction
1028 2015-12-03T20:40:10 <morcos> feeDeltas
1029 2015-12-03T20:40:15 <wumpus> what is the meaning of a negative fee?
1030 2015-12-03T20:40:17 <wumpus> oh
1031 2015-12-03T20:40:26 <wumpus> probably should regard that as a zero fee though?
1032 2015-12-03T20:40:27 <sdaftuar> i was just surprised to learn it didn't work
1033 2015-12-03T20:40:43 <sdaftuar> (when i wrote the prioritise_transaction.py test recently, i couldn't figure out why my test was breaking)
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1035 2015-12-03T20:41:10 <sdaftuar> i think we could just fix this?
1036 2015-12-03T20:41:28 <sdaftuar> i was nervous at first, but it seems like fixing it to be properly negative should be safe (?)
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1038 2015-12-03T20:41:47 <wumpus> what is the expectation if you feed it a negative number?
1039 2015-12-03T20:42:24 <morcos> wumpus: Without understanding more about how feeDeltas are used, I think capping it at 0 could have unintended consequences. People might expect to apply a cost Delta and benefit Delta and them net propertly or something
1040 2015-12-03T20:42:25 <sdaftuar> well, i would think that it would be worse (ie to mine) than any 0-fee rate transaction
1041 2015-12-03T20:42:39 <sdaftuar> and yes what morcos said...
1042 2015-12-03T20:43:07 <wumpus> just be careful that nothing in the code that handles fees probably takes into account that they can be negative
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1044 2015-12-03T20:43:34 <wumpus> this could be just one exampel
1045 2015-12-03T20:43:44 <sdaftuar> the scary thing about this example is that it's platform dependent, i think
1046 2015-12-03T20:43:46 <morcos> we actually think it works now, except with the possible exception of some printing issues, since FeeRates aren't actually used for much
1047 2015-12-03T20:44:01 <sdaftuar> i haven't tested on 32-bit platforms, but i tried doing the same calculation with an unsigned int rather than a size_t
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1049 2015-12-03T20:44:10 <sdaftuar> and the calculation results in a negative value
1050 2015-12-03T20:44:28 <wumpus> yes it is platform dependent
1051 2015-12-03T20:44:45 <Lightsword> btw I tested CNB with TestBlockValidity patched out and it getâs it down to ~10ms, otherwise it is over 100ms, if that can be put in a background thread and made not to block it looks like the speed increase should be fairly significant
1052 2015-12-03T20:45:25 <sdaftuar> so if we think the code is safe on 32-bit platforms, it should be fine to fix on 64-bit platforms. that is perhaps a big assumption :)
1053 2015-12-03T20:45:48 <wumpus> nFeePaid is a signed 64 bit integer, if nSize is a 32 bit unsigned integer then this works fine (it's casted up to 64 bit signed), but if 64 bit unsigned then everything will be done as 64 bit unsigned arithmethic
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1055 2015-12-03T20:46:03 <morcos> Lightsword: yay! I think the background thread can be a future improvement. The reason I didn't try to do that now is it wasn't clear to me what to do if it fails in the background thread. although to be fair, its not really clear what to do if it fails when its synchronous
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1057 2015-12-03T20:46:32 <Lightsword> morcos, itâs a fatal error anyways so it should just terminate I think
1058 2015-12-03T20:46:45 <wumpus> sdaftuar: agreed
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1061 2015-12-03T20:47:39 <Lightsword> morcos, if TestBlockValidity fails and GBT has already returned worst case is a miner is only invalid work for 30 seconds before bitcoind terminates
1062 2015-12-03T20:48:31 <wumpus> sdaftuar: ((int64_t)nSize) would already work to fix the arithmetic, of course given that nSize itself fits into that...
1063 2015-12-03T20:48:48 <sdaftuar> wumpus: agreed
1064 2015-12-03T20:49:19 <morcos> Lightsword: yeah so its not a hard fix, but i think we'll have to live with the 100ms for 0.12
1065 2015-12-03T20:49:25 <morcos> better than it was!
1066 2015-12-03T20:50:07 <Lightsword> morcos, hmm, can we just move TestBlockValidity right to right after GBT returns?
1067 2015-12-03T20:50:23 <Lightsword> TestBlockValidity to right after*
1068 2015-12-03T20:50:57 <Lightsword> that may be simpler than a background thread
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