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25 2015-12-08T00:51:54 <mrkent> Is there a standard for ordering the addresses for a P2SH?
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36 2015-12-08T01:16:18 <Luke-Jr> mrkent: that doesn't make sense. P2SH is a type of an address.
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39 2015-12-08T01:18:44 <mrkent> Luke-Jr: the creation of that address requires multiple regular address i mean
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41 2015-12-08T01:18:54 <mrkent> is there a standard of ordering them
42 2015-12-08T01:19:46 <phantomcircuit> mrkent, you're actually asking whether there is a standard for ordering pubkey hashes in OP_CHECKMULTISIG
43 2015-12-08T01:19:51 <phantomcircuit> i believe the answer is no btw
44 2015-12-08T01:20:02 <phantomcircuit> (could totally be wrong though)
45 2015-12-08T01:20:46 <mrkent> @phantomcircuit: yes that's the question :)
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53 2015-12-08T01:24:54 <tulip> mrkent: not that I've noticed.
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88 2015-12-08T02:09:55 <GAit> FYI cfields created #bitcoin-hk-dev for those participating to the hackaton today and tomorrow
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91 2015-12-08T02:15:03 <phantomcircuit> cfields, why not just take over -dev or -core-dev ?
92 2015-12-08T02:15:10 <phantomcircuit> i somehow doubt anybody will mind
93 2015-12-08T02:15:44 <cfields> phantomcircuit: i figured we may end up with a good bit of local discussion that wouldn't make sense without context
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97 2015-12-08T02:18:41 <phantomcircuit> cfields, ok
98 2015-12-08T02:24:09 <jtoomim> cfields hi
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100 2015-12-08T02:28:22 <jouke> jtoomim: I meant to ask yesterday, but what service provider did you use for the VPSses in China?
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102 2015-12-08T02:32:49 <jtoomim> aliyun
103 2015-12-08T02:32:51 <jtoomim> they're cheap
104 2015-12-08T02:32:58 <jtoomim> they seem to have good bandwidth within china
105 2015-12-08T02:33:04 <jtoomim> but their hong kong server seemed a bit off
106 2015-12-08T02:33:18 <jtoomim> not as cheap as non-chinese VPSs, but still fairly cheap
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108 2015-12-08T02:33:19 <jtoomim> jouke
109 2015-12-08T02:33:42 <jtoomim> i was paying $25/mo for a 2-core 2GB VPS with 100 Mbps peak plus a per-GB fee
110 2015-12-08T02:33:53 <jtoomim> except in HK, which is inexplicably more expensive for the same thing ($30)
111 2015-12-08T02:34:25 <jtoomim> their web interface mostly has english, but there are a few sections that haven't been translated
112 2015-12-08T02:34:48 <jtoomim> and you don't need any special hoops to get the servers, unlike many other cloud providers
113 2015-12-08T02:35:03 <jtoomim> the "yun" in aliyun means cloud, by the way
114 2015-12-08T02:35:22 <jtoomim> so it's alibaba/alipay/aligroup's cloud offering
115 2015-12-08T02:35:48 <jtoomim> it's intended to be basically a clone of amazon ec2
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117 2015-12-08T02:36:19 <jtoomim> i didn't compare aliyun to other providers to see if they're the best
118 2015-12-08T02:36:45 <jtoomim> i merely followed thbluematt's and wangchun's recommendation
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125 2015-12-08T02:43:07 <jouke> jtoomim: thanks!
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135 2015-12-08T02:59:53 <kanzure> jcorgan: not sure whether to approve the keyrun email......
136 2015-12-08T03:00:37 <kanzure> it's more OP_RETURN data stuff. and an advertisement sorta.
137 2015-12-08T03:01:03 <kanzure> jcorgan: i think we should reject it, and then let others argue for its inclusion, then we can let it go through if the author resubmits.
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149 2015-12-08T03:19:34 <phantomcircuit> jtoomim, in the interest of being useful aliyun in Beijing is the best for reasons i wont get into
150 2015-12-08T03:19:42 <jcorgan> lemme look
151 2015-12-08T03:22:11 <jcorgan> yeah, i agree
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154 2015-12-08T03:27:02 <phantomcircuit> jtoomim, i like how they call you from an international number
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156 2015-12-08T03:29:16 <jtoomim> jouke phantomcircuit one source of more information on cloud hosting providers in china is http://www.chinanetcloud.com/sites/default/files/Clouds%20in%20China_en.pdf
157 2015-12-08T03:29:48 <phantomcircuit> jtoomim, i have super special info that says aliyun in beijing is the best
158 2015-12-08T03:29:57 <jtoomim> ack
159 2015-12-08T03:30:32 <jtoomim> zone a or zone b, do you know?
160 2015-12-08T03:30:35 <phantomcircuit> also their damned billing site uses super outdated crypto which firefox refuses to allow
161 2015-12-08T03:30:40 <phantomcircuit> jtoomim, that i dont know
162 2015-12-08T03:30:47 <jtoomim> i'm in zone a
163 2015-12-08T03:30:51 <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: FYI, that thing you went up during WIP to suggest to reduce stale blocks..
164 2015-12-08T03:30:55 <jtoomim> but i don't really care that much because i'm just on testnet
165 2015-12-08T03:31:01 <phantomcircuit> probably doesn't matter im sure they're connected via low latency fiber links
166 2015-12-08T03:31:05 <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: both BFGMiner and cgminer have been doing it for *years*
167 2015-12-08T03:31:17 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, which thing?
168 2015-12-08T03:31:34 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: switching to whatever pool notifies of a new block earliest, until your main pool(s) catch up
169 2015-12-08T03:31:44 <phantomcircuit> oh
170 2015-12-08T03:31:46 <jtoomim> luke-jr really? i haven't seen that actually happen on any of my miners. does that require load balancing *miner.conf files?
171 2015-12-08T03:31:50 <phantomcircuit> yeah there's a risk to doing that
172 2015-12-08T03:31:59 <Luke-Jr> jtoomim: no, just multiple pools and not --failover-only
173 2015-12-08T03:32:20 <phantomcircuit> the risk being some third tier pool you configured as a failover goes stupid and you stop mining valid blocks
174 2015-12-08T03:32:52 <jtoomim> perhaps a time limit on mining on the non-main pool could help with that?
175 2015-12-08T03:32:56 <phantomcircuit> this is where someone starts yelling about market dynamics and people removing it from their configs
176 2015-12-08T03:32:58 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: yes, probably there should be a timeout when you have a trusted local node to check against
177 2015-12-08T03:33:01 <jtoomim> as well as a block height difference maximum?
178 2015-12-08T03:33:18 <jtoomim> i.e. only if they're at most 2 blocks ahead?
179 2015-12-08T03:33:28 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, i was under the impression that cgminer would refuse to go backwards but that doesn't appear to be the case (at least not in master)
180 2015-12-08T03:33:48 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: no?
181 2015-12-08T03:33:49 <phantomcircuit> i could also be seeing a bug in the logic around the work id not changing
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183 2015-12-08T03:33:54 <phantomcircuit> not sure yet
184 2015-12-08T03:34:12 <jtoomim> well, cool, i'm glad you guys are looking into this, because i don't have the time to follow up on it
185 2015-12-08T03:34:20 <phantomcircuit> Luke-Jr, there's a function that returns false if you go backwards and prints a stale work warning, but nothing uses the return value of the function
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188 2015-12-08T03:35:20 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: lol!
189 2015-12-08T03:35:47 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, I think the changeover would be in the else part of the statement right?
190 2015-12-08T03:36:03 <Lightsword> https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/blob/master/cgminer.c#L4740
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192 2015-12-08T03:39:50 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, what im talking about is if the pool goes from block height 1 to 2 and back to 1
193 2015-12-08T03:39:58 <phantomcircuit> i've been told this results in cgminer refusing to work on 1
194 2015-12-08T03:40:23 <Lightsword> I think thatâs right since it thinks it is stale data
195 2015-12-08T03:40:46 <phantomcircuit> yes which is the check right before the line you linked to (the if part of the if/else)
196 2015-12-08T03:41:00 <phantomcircuit> notice it sets ret = false
197 2015-12-08T03:41:20 <phantomcircuit> but nothing checks the result of test_work_current
198 2015-12-08T03:42:20 <Lightsword> yeah, I noticed thatâ¦it seems it doesnât trigger a change to the previous blockhash in that case
199 2015-12-08T03:42:39 <Lightsword> basically does nothing from the looks of it
200 2015-12-08T03:43:27 <phantomcircuit> i tested this but with something where the workid didn't change
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202 2015-12-08T03:43:38 <phantomcircuit> but after looking at the code it seems it doesn't do that
203 2015-12-08T03:43:46 <phantomcircuit> and just mines on whatever the pool tells it to
204 2015-12-08T03:44:56 <Lightsword> so it would start mining on the older blockhash?
205 2015-12-08T03:45:02 <Lightsword> what does the workid have to do with it?
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209 2015-12-08T03:56:24 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, it's not clear to me what it should be doing actually
210 2015-12-08T03:56:57 <phantomcircuit> probably what it's doing now (but not what people seem to think it's doing) is the best behavior
211 2015-12-08T03:57:14 <phantomcircuit> if you configure a pool even as a failover which you do not trust then you have made a mistake
212 2015-12-08T03:57:18 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, from what I can tell it does nothing if itâs an old blockhash
213 2015-12-08T03:57:31 <phantomcircuit> but that has a bunch of really nasty consequences
214 2015-12-08T03:58:21 <Lightsword> not sure why one would configure a failover they do not trust though
215 2015-12-08T03:59:38 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, "better than doing nothing"
216 2015-12-08T03:59:44 <phantomcircuit> trust isn't black and white
217 2015-12-08T04:00:00 <phantomcircuit> is a pool with a 25% default risk better than not mining at all? maybe
218 2015-12-08T04:01:00 <phantomcircuit> jtoomim, lol wat the aliyun console isn't over https
219 2015-12-08T04:01:02 <phantomcircuit> that's crazy
220 2015-12-08T04:01:35 <Lightsword> I think itâs mainly an issue if one pool is only issueing stale work
221 2015-12-08T04:02:06 <Lightsword> but if bitcoind was completely dead it would get replaced by the next update from a working pool
222 2015-12-08T04:02:30 <Lightsword> the only case I could see it being an issue was if bitcoind was say always 10 blocks out of date
223 2015-12-08T04:02:34 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, i suspect that the optimal behavior is to have a preferred pool and then to switch to whichever pool gives you the highest work chain to build on but only for 1-2 seconds at a time
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226 2015-12-08T04:03:26 <phantomcircuit> and yeah then if the preferred pool is super out of date you're screwed but at least one of the smaller ones cant trick you into wasting a bunch of hashing power
227 2015-12-08T04:03:32 <phantomcircuit> er
228 2015-12-08T04:03:36 <phantomcircuit> less preferred
229 2015-12-08T04:03:38 <phantomcircuit> not smaller
230 2015-12-08T04:03:41 <phantomcircuit> brainfart
231 2015-12-08T04:03:50 <Lightsword> I mean, there is the âfailover-only option for that right?
232 2015-12-08T04:04:15 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, yes but then you dont potentially benefit from a less trusted but faster pool
233 2015-12-08T04:04:49 * phantomcircuit is really not sure which is optimal, but there seems to be excellent arguments for virtually every configuration imaginable
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235 2015-12-08T04:05:31 <Lightsword> yeah, itâs complexâ¦maybe need a stratum command for the pool to invalidate a blockhash
236 2015-12-08T04:06:38 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, except stratum clients dont have enough of the block header to know which fork they're mining on
237 2015-12-08T04:06:45 <phantomcircuit> wait yes they do
238 2015-12-08T04:06:47 <phantomcircuit> derp ignore
239 2015-12-08T04:07:02 <Lightsword> I think it just tracks the previous headers
240 2015-12-08T04:07:05 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, yeah that's a more flexible approach than using a timer
241 2015-12-08T04:07:31 <phantomcircuit> except then if you have a rogue pool that's telling you to work on total nonsense
242 2015-12-08T04:07:35 <phantomcircuit> you're screwed
243 2015-12-08T04:07:48 <phantomcircuit> since the higher priority pool will never get the block and thus wont invalidate it
244 2015-12-08T04:07:52 <Lightsword> I think the problem is itâs mixing in a global newest with individual pool chains
245 2015-12-08T04:08:36 <Lightsword> thatâs true but I donât think a rogue pool situation was ever something it was designed to handle
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247 2015-12-08T04:10:08 <Lightsword> âA: No, cgminer keeps a database of the block it's working on to ensure it does
248 2015-12-08T04:10:09 <Lightsword> not work on stale blocks, and having different blocks from two networks would
249 2015-12-08T04:10:10 <Lightsword> make it invalidate the work from each other.â
250 2015-12-08T04:10:57 <Lightsword> yeah, so if the block on the bad pool is not in the database it will just keep flipping back and forth I guess
251 2015-12-08T04:11:54 <Lightsword> hmm, maybe the best way to handle it would be to use priority in that case and not switch to the outdated pool
252 2015-12-08T04:12:17 <Lightsword> but then failover wouldnât work if the primary froze
253 2015-12-08T04:12:47 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, is there a way to get the blockheight over stratum?
254 2015-12-08T04:15:35 <phantomcircuit> Lightsword, it's in the coinbase
255 2015-12-08T04:15:42 <phantomcircuit> (dirty dirty hack i know)
256 2015-12-08T04:17:22 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, that would be good to use to ensure it doesnât start mining on some ancient chain
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261 2015-12-08T04:24:48 <Lightsword> oh, ck says that readme is inaccurate and only applies to getwork(which was removed)
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275 2015-12-08T04:49:02 <btcdrak> mrkent: there is a BIP that encourages ordering yes.
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363 2015-12-08T07:38:08 <Lightsword> phantomcircuit, well I added blockheight to cgminer https://github.com/ckolivas/cgminer/pull/686/files
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394 2015-12-08T08:34:43 <jtimon> devrandom: #7091, also #6625 is not really necessary for libconsensus but it will help to avoid later blocksize-related patches (say, common preparations for bip102, etc) to get in the way of consensus encapsulation
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401 2015-12-08T08:47:50 <Lightsword> oh, BIP65 is now enforcing
402 2015-12-08T08:48:04 <Lightsword> "found" : 753,
403 2015-12-08T08:49:00 <gmaxwell> yea, it's filickering on and off w/ enforcing.
404 2015-12-08T08:49:14 <gmaxwell> antpool is producing a fair number of v3 blocks still.
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406 2015-12-08T08:53:38 <Lightsword> gmaxwell, they were planning to switch fully in a few days AFAIK
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409 2015-12-08T08:53:48 <Lightsword> they held off so that more small pools could ugprade
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412 2015-12-08T08:55:14 <gmaxwell> Lightsword: I'm just as well having it not lock while everyone is in route back from HK.
413 2015-12-08T08:55:25 <gmaxwell> But, ... any idea who else needes to get updated?
414 2015-12-08T08:55:34 <Lightsword> gmaxwell, for antpool?
415 2015-12-08T08:55:45 <Lightsword> or other pools?
416 2015-12-08T08:56:06 <Lightsword> ghash maybe and mybtccoin
417 2015-12-08T08:56:18 <Lightsword> and the pool with this address 19f8Pk3m1GySyowWb8qLy93R5ngAUoVoUE
418 2015-12-08T08:56:25 <Lightsword> ghash was producing mixed blocks for a while
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595 2015-12-08T13:39:56 <shock143> Hello
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620 2015-12-08T14:35:45 <kanzure> jcorgan: welp it looks like someone approved it...
621 2015-12-08T14:36:17 <kanzure> jl2012: btw, the mailing list interface says that you have been unsubscribed again
622 2015-12-08T14:36:41 <jcorgan> i noticed
623 2015-12-08T14:37:27 <jl2012> kanzure: you mean bitcoin-dev? No wonder I received nothing recently....
624 2015-12-08T14:39:17 <jl2012> I never unsubscribe it
625 2015-12-08T14:39:45 *** dmj` has quit IRC
626 2015-12-08T14:40:04 <kanzure> jl2012: i believe it is because of bounces
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629 2015-12-08T14:43:14 <jl2012> so it's problem in my side? I don't know why there's bounces from me but I'll see
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632 2015-12-08T14:48:20 <jl2012> how many bounces will trigger unsubscription?
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714 2015-12-08T17:10:06 <kanzure> bip112 does not actually explicitly mention "OP_CSV" (the abbreviation)
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721 2015-12-08T17:20:19 <aschildbach> sipa: Hi! About your segregated witness proposal, I'd like to point out that while SPV wallets indeed do not need the signature, they desperately need the values for inputs (mainly for fee estimation). I wonder if we could add the value to the "transaction side", rather than the "witness side".
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727 2015-12-08T17:30:59 <jl2012> aschildbach: that will add 8 bytes to all scriptPubKey
728 2015-12-08T17:33:00 <jl2012> or......the value is actually in the tx side in the first place? Value is part of the UTXO set
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730 2015-12-08T17:33:32 <jl2012> ignore my comments for adding 8 bytes to scriptPubKey
731 2015-12-08T17:33:33 <Yoghur114> you mean their size?
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741 2015-12-08T17:42:13 <aschildbach> jl2012: SPV wallets do not have access to the utxo set.
742 2015-12-08T17:42:36 <aschildbach> jl2012: At least not those that are irrelevant to the wallet.
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766 2015-12-08T18:09:40 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: maybe the witness tree can commit to values too?
767 2015-12-08T18:09:57 <Luke-Jr> and then you only need the proof, not the contents of the witness..
768 2015-12-08T18:11:04 <aschildbach> Luke-Jr: wouldn't that require 3 trees (transaction, witness, input values)?
769 2015-12-08T18:11:43 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: it can be encoded into the witness tree i think
770 2015-12-08T18:11:57 <aschildbach> Ah you mean into the hashes themselves?
771 2015-12-08T18:12:14 <Luke-Jr> well, the leaves would be hash+value instead of just the hash; or somethign
772 2015-12-08T18:12:33 <aschildbach> Ok understood.
773 2015-12-08T18:13:36 <Luke-Jr> maybe there's a way to make it extensible in case we want to add more in the future
774 2015-12-08T18:14:40 <aschildbach> Luke-Jr: Hmm, I think it can't work that way.
775 2015-12-08T18:14:49 <aschildbach> First, there can be multiple inputs per txn.
776 2015-12-08T18:15:21 <aschildbach> And second, then the leaves would be bigger (in bytes) than the nodes of the tree.
777 2015-12-08T18:15:24 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: do you care about per-input values?
778 2015-12-08T18:15:37 <Luke-Jr> the leaves really *should* be bigger than nodes
779 2015-12-08T18:15:51 <Luke-Jr> right now, we have an impractical exploit because that is not true in the transaction tree
780 2015-12-08T18:15:52 <aschildbach> Wouldn't that break the simplicity of merkle trees?
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782 2015-12-08T18:17:30 <aschildbach> I admit the sum of the input values is probably enough for the estimate fee usecase. However I'm sure there are tons of other usecases.
783 2015-12-08T18:17:52 <aschildbach> What's that exploit?
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785 2015-12-08T18:20:24 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: I think gmaxwell was going to confirm the impracticality further, before the details were made public. That was weeks ago, but I don't know his conclusion.
786 2015-12-08T18:21:03 <aschildbach> ok
787 2015-12-08T18:22:14 <Luke-Jr> aschildbach: (PM)
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815 2015-12-08T19:33:25 <BW^-> any particularly good BIP 38/39, hashing and HD wallet and key derivation library in JS?
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821 2015-12-08T19:37:18 <morcos> Would anybody object if we redefined BIP 68 to only use MTP semantics
822 2015-12-08T19:37:29 <morcos> We'd still need MTP to affect LockTimes
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824 2015-12-08T19:37:40 <morcos> But if we were planning on rolling out these two softforks together anyway
825 2015-12-08T19:38:06 <morcos> It doesn't seem like it makes sense to write consensus code that can handle BIP 68 without MTP when we never expect that to happen
826 2015-12-08T19:38:22 <morcos> so let's just define BIP 68 as using MTP from the beginning
827 2015-12-08T19:38:51 <morcos> btcdrak ^
828 2015-12-08T19:38:58 <morcos> sipa gmaxwell ^
829 2015-12-08T19:40:48 <btcdrak> morcos: no objection from me.
830 2015-12-08T19:41:28 <btcdrak> morcos: i like your proposed PR.
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832 2015-12-08T19:42:34 <btcdrak> kanzure: why would it?
833 2015-12-08T19:43:28 <btcdrak> kanzure: BIP65 doesnt use OP_CLTV abbreviation either...
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835 2015-12-08T19:56:13 <morcos> ehh, maybe it doesn't change as much as i thought it did.
836 2015-12-08T19:58:13 <morcos> maybe still worth doing, depends on which people think is clearer
837 2015-12-08T19:59:10 <kanzure> btcdrak: stuff is often already hard-enough as-is to find :) good point about bip65/OP_CLTV
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841 2015-12-08T20:04:14 <gmaxwell> morcos: yes, makes sense to me.
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855 2015-12-08T20:27:14 <nwilcox> Makefile.am uses $(JAVA_COMPARISON_TOOL) in the check-local and block_test.info targets, but only the latter is surrounded with "if USE_COMPARISON_TOOL". Is this a bug?
856 2015-12-08T20:27:31 <nwilcox> Sorry, only the former, check-local has the if guard.
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888 2015-12-08T21:45:09 <btcdrak> jtimon: There is every possibility we close #6312 in favour of a new PR.
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