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  65 2015-12-10T02:09:22  <kanzure> trying to decide whether to approve/reject email that starts with "I hope this isn't out of line, but I joined the mailing list to try to start a discussion on adding opcodes to make Script Turing Pseudo-Complete as Wright suggested is possible."
  66 2015-12-10T02:10:16  <kanzure> meh nevermind, i'll let it through.
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  68 2015-12-10T02:12:19  <phantomcircuit> kanzure, that seems totally reasonable for the mailing list (outside of the silly "in line with __ suggestion" part)
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  70 2015-12-10T02:13:51  <kanzure> yeah but surely there is a point at which the snr of a proposal is too low
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  75 2015-12-10T02:25:53  <job_> big sigh when I saw that mail. but his intentions are probably good.
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  78 2015-12-10T02:26:41  <kanzure> "clearly what bitcoin developers are lacking is a bunch of forth knowledge" :D
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  89 2015-12-10T02:38:01  <gmaxwell> kanzure: I have to say that stuff like that makes me find the list less useful; though I don't disagree that you were right to let it through.
  90 2015-12-10T02:38:40  <kanzure> i want to filter for signal-to-noise.
  91 2015-12-10T02:39:07  <gmaxwell> I think that post is noise.
  92 2015-12-10T02:39:33  <gmaxwell> The author didn't know it was noise, of course... and obviously means well.
  93 2015-12-10T02:40:22  <jamesob> better not to err on the side of light moderation, though? outrageous stuff sometimes gets posted to Python mailing list, but the community self-polices very well
  94 2015-12-10T02:40:32  <gmaxwell> now, what do I waste an hour of my time explaining things? No. Do I ignore?  What happens when everyone does the same thing?  What happens when only other clueless people respond?
  95 2015-12-10T02:40:37  <gmaxwell> :(
  96 2015-12-10T02:40:46  <gmaxwell> (I'm not criticising you in the slighest; hard problems)
  97 2015-12-10T02:41:04  <jamesob> yeah, that's fair
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  99 2015-12-10T02:47:25  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i'll admit that i decided not to respond to it because i figured you would...
 100 2015-12-10T02:50:27  <jamesob> messages can go unanswered... that in itself is a signal
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 109 2015-12-10T03:05:04  <gmaxwell> jamesob: but not really the right one; and it probably won't go unanswered
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 121 2015-12-10T03:24:53  <moa> what about the ones that begin "I'm a financial programming  professional for the last 25 years ... "?
 122 2015-12-10T03:25:55  <kanzure> gmaxwell: perhaps better to just reply once, keep a bookmark around and use it in the future.
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 216 2015-12-10T06:29:06  <Lightsword> um, slush just mined a v3 block https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/block/0000000000000000044e3a71cdb513d85d892313fada6905ccb675778857e86b seems they forgot to upgrade one of their nodes
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 226 2015-12-10T06:45:19  <Luke-Jr> Lightsword: too busy with phony altcoin triggers I guess
 227 2015-12-10T06:45:29  <Lightsword> Luke-Jr, sounds about right
 228 2015-12-10T06:47:25  <sturles> I got the Transaction commit failed
 229 2015-12-10T06:47:28  <sturles> again.
 230 2015-12-10T06:47:45  <sturles> sendtrawtx says "256: absurdly-high-fee".
 231 2015-12-10T06:47:59  <sturles> Bitcoin Core created the transaction via normal sendmany.
 232 2015-12-10T06:48:15  <Luke-Jr> :|
 233 2015-12-10T06:48:29  <sturles> And again the fee estimated by estimatefee 1 is quite high: 0.00195585
 234 2015-12-10T06:48:37  <sturles> I run with -txconfirmtarget=4
 235 2015-12-10T06:49:00  <sturles> Estimated fee for that target is 0.00013693.
 236 2015-12-10T06:49:33  <sturles> A factor of 14 difference.  I have a feeling this may be relevant..
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 239 2015-12-10T06:51:32  <jl2012> has the bitcoin-dev mailing list policy changed, that every posts are moderated even for people who had passed moderation before?
 240 2015-12-10T06:52:13  <sturles> My tx has 6 inputs and 4 outputs.  The fee is 0.00015564.
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 245 2015-12-10T06:55:08  <aj> jl2012: no, but people's moderation bits can get reset. not sure exactly what the conditions for that are though
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 250 2015-12-10T06:58:58  <kanzure> jl2012: your posts are currently being moderated, but that's only because i keep forgetting to unset your moderation flag
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 252 2015-12-10T07:01:45  <kanzure> unfortunately i also forgot this time as well (only saw your irc comment after approving your message)
 253 2015-12-10T07:02:41  <Luke-Jr> who approved the Satoshi message? -.-
 254 2015-12-10T07:03:03  <kanzure> i was told *not* to moderate for signal-to-noise
 255 2015-12-10T07:03:11  <kanzure> i would be *very very very* happy to moderate for signal-to-noise
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 257 2015-12-10T07:03:47  <Luke-Jr> kanzure: what does that mean? the message has nothing to do with development. what is being moderated if not that?
 258 2015-12-10T07:04:30  <kanzure> you are asking two questions. "what does that mean?" i'm not sure how to answer; what more information do you want?
 259 2015-12-10T07:05:04  <Luke-Jr> "moderate for signal-to-noise" makes no sense to me.
 260 2015-12-10T07:05:18  <Luke-Jr> especially since off-topic (noise) is the whole point of the moderation
 261 2015-12-10T07:05:32  <kanzure> well i would usually agree with you
 262 2015-12-10T07:05:57  <Luke-Jr> is the policy to literally approve *everything* now?
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 265 2015-12-10T07:06:34  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: look at the policy email. it's about not hurting people's feelings.
 266 2015-12-10T07:06:48  <Luke-Jr> who said anything about hurting feelings?
 267 2015-12-10T07:06:57  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: that's my interpretation of it; go look. i think you would agree.
 268 2015-12-10T07:07:04  <Luke-Jr> …
 269 2015-12-10T07:07:25  <Luke-Jr> are we talking about the same thing? http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011936.html
 270 2015-12-10T07:07:42  <kanzure> "it" as in "the moderation policy email" i asked you to look at.
 271 2015-12-10T07:07:43  <gmaxwell> FWIW, I would have punted that "satoshi" message if nothing else to see if people freak about about censoring "satoshi". :)
 272 2015-12-10T07:08:06  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: at the moment i do not have much lee-way to shitcan bad emails
 273 2015-12-10T07:08:21  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011539.html
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 276 2015-12-10T07:10:16  <kanzure> i feel like i screwed up by approving http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011927.html so i volunteered a reply http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011931.html
 277 2015-12-10T07:10:22  <Luke-Jr> kanzure: that was a proposed policy that didn't get adopted afaik.. anyhow, see "4. Off-topic threads will be directed to other venues."
 278 2015-12-10T07:10:47  <kanzure> jgarzik has stressed to me in the past that i should be approving most things, and disruptors will be scolded on-list or something, i don't know
 279 2015-12-10T07:10:59  <kanzure> look, if we could make it more explicit where i can pick and choose, then i'm perfectly fine doing that
 280 2015-12-10T07:11:07  <kanzure> also i'm pretty good at it
 281 2015-12-10T07:12:08  <gmaxwell> kanzure: we could create a meta list, bitcoin-dev-filtered-by-kanzure@kanzuredomain.world and you could just filter that, and anyone who wants could subscribe there instead.
 282 2015-12-10T07:13:49  *** bendavenport has quit IRC
 283 2015-12-10T07:16:18  * Lightsword notices that email came from a Time Warner Cable Internet LLC connection
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 285 2015-12-10T07:17:41  <Lightsword> previous one at least matched DNS
 286 2015-12-10T07:18:00  <jl2012> kanzure: if the "Satoshi" message is allowed, it may be easier just to switch off the moderation.....
 287 2015-12-10T07:19:03  <gmaxwell> On the upside, given the amount of research that has gone into most of the "journalism"; I guess they're gonna have to take that has conclusive. :P
 288 2015-12-10T07:19:16  <kanzure> gmaxwell: ha
 289 2015-12-10T07:19:28  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: no kidding
 290 2015-12-10T07:19:36  <kanzure> more seriously, i think the moderation policy needs to be fixed so that i don't get trashed when i reject a satoshi email or the new emails today (like from the FORTH person)
 291 2015-12-10T07:19:42  <kanzure> (or from the "just make it like VISA" person)
 292 2015-12-10T07:20:24  <jl2012> Does it mean people are allowed to say anything related to bitcoin, as long as not hurting people's feelings?
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 294 2015-12-10T07:20:27  <kanzure> clearly you guys want this, so formalize it. the other moderators (in addition to me) are going to get thrown under a bus for moderating on content, based on current understanding of moderation policy.
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 299 2015-12-10T07:21:40  <kanzure> "off-topic" was not clearly defined, and unfortunately it can't be "you know it when you see it" because there's zero authority in this system anyway (so stuff has to be done by consensus i guess).
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 302 2015-12-10T07:22:27  <gmaxwell> I think we should eliminate moderation and you should make a customized feed for each of us, taylored to our own personal preferences.
 303 2015-12-10T07:22:49  <aj> kanzure: i thought https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011591.html was moderation policy?
 304 2015-12-10T07:25:05  <aj> kanzure: "Posts must contribute to bitcoin development" would exclude satoshi identity posts...
 305 2015-12-10T07:25:20  <aj> kanzure: (apparently my spam filter does too)
 306 2015-12-10T07:25:21  <Luke-Jr> +1
 307 2015-12-10T07:25:29  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: yes yes i already know your opinion.
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 309 2015-12-10T07:26:02  <kanzure> aj: while i agree with you that this seems to be policy, there has been communication with jgarzik regarding list management and a far more permissive attitude has been uh strongly encouraged
 310 2015-12-10T07:26:12  <gmaxwell> Luke-Jr: please don't beat kanzure up.
 311 2015-12-10T07:26:15  <Luke-Jr> jgarzik isn't even listed as a moderator..
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 313 2015-12-10T07:26:34  <gmaxwell> kanzure: is this discussion public?
 314 2015-12-10T07:26:45  <kanzure> well there's been bits and pieces in irc?
 315 2015-12-10T07:26:47  <aj> kanzure: it would be good to document that and update the "details" link on https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev to correspond then
 316 2015-12-10T07:26:48  <kanzure> public irc
 317 2015-12-10T07:27:29  <kanzure> what i want is to reject stuff like https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011927.html without a shitstorm
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 319 2015-12-10T07:29:29  <aj> kanzure: don't reject it, redirect it to bitcoin-discuss. that's totally a "discussion" mail...
 320 2015-12-10T07:29:33  <Luke-Jr> while I agree that's off-topic, the satoshi one is far far more off-topic to the point it should be beyond reproach to reject it IMO
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 322 2015-12-10T07:31:31  <kanzure> Luke-Jr: understood
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 327 2015-12-10T07:41:28  <btcdrak> Lightsword: AntPool still creating v3 blocks -.-
 328 2015-12-10T07:41:44  <btcdrak> kanzure: I suggest er fire jgarzik, heh (I'm joking).
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 331 2015-12-10T07:42:20  <Lightsword> yeah…guess they haven’t gotten around to updating yet
 332 2015-12-10T07:42:52  <Lightsword> at least they are big enough there’s not much risk of it activating without them knowing
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 334 2015-12-10T07:43:48  <btcdrak> kanzure: gmaxwell: I havent been exercising any moderation at all so far, but I'm tempted to step in with an iron fist. The whole point of moderation is to bring decorum, stop shitposting and inflamatory posts, and restore the list to it's former academic standards.
 335 2015-12-10T07:44:15  <kanzure> btcdrak: do you agree with rejecting https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011927.html
 336 2015-12-10T07:44:25  <btcdrak> kansure: gmaxwell: I also suggest we reply to "satoshi" and demand he with prove himselve or we will set the moderation bit.
 337 2015-12-10T07:45:27  <btcdrak> kanzure: that belongs on bitcoin-discuss
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 340 2015-12-10T07:46:10  <aj> kanzure: (couldn't find anything in my #bitcoin{,-wizards,-dev,-core-dev} logs from jgarzik about substantially more permissive moderation... maybe just quote the logs as an update in a mail to -discuss or something?)
 341 2015-12-10T07:46:24  <kanzure> "1. Let anybody post. 2. If a post goes incendiary / trolling, one (1) moderator asks them to chill. 3. If behavior continues, ban."
 342 2015-12-10T07:47:38  <btcdrak> It's time to change the rules.
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 344 2015-12-10T07:48:14  <kanzure> btw logs are getting double lines here http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/12/10
 345 2015-12-10T07:49:22  <btcdrak> kanzure: I'd like to switch to botbot. If we can get a list admin to make an application to https://botbot.me/request/ I can probably get it hurried along
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 373 2015-12-10T08:20:53  <olalonde> I haven't really thought this through but could it be possible to apply the segregated witness to output scripts as well?
 374 2015-12-10T08:21:37  <sipa> yes, though you need to commit to them
 375 2015-12-10T08:21:42  <sipa> so like p2sh does
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 377 2015-12-10T08:22:05  <sipa> put the real scriptPubKey in the witness, but out its hash in the outout
 378 2015-12-10T08:22:11  <olalonde> Ah right
 379 2015-12-10T08:22:24  <sipa> my prototype actually does that for larger scripts
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 385 2015-12-10T08:27:51  <olalonde> In your prototype, how are witnesses transmitted to during initial blockchain download? new protocol message type? are they just appended to block messages?
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 387 2015-12-10T08:29:00  <sipa> new inv type
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 389 2015-12-10T08:29:09  <sipa> but same block/tx messages with extra field
 390 2015-12-10T08:30:19  <olalonde> inv.type = MSG_WITNESS_BLOCK  got it
 391 2015-12-10T08:30:25  <olalonde> Ok thanks
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 393 2015-12-10T08:31:11  <jonasschnelli> Is there something planed to put the txs inputs values (prevout amount) into the segwit structure?
 394 2015-12-10T08:31:34  <olalonde> I'm surprised those scriptSigs take that much space in the blockchain
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 396 2015-12-10T08:32:21  <jonasschnelli> Something that could address the hardware wallet (and SPV) fee validation: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7089
 397 2015-12-10T08:34:55  <sipa> jonasschnelli: yes, but putting it in the witness won't help hardware wallets
 398 2015-12-10T08:35:18  <sipa> you need signatures that cover the amounts; the fact that you send them along with transactions doesn't help
 399 2015-12-10T08:36:01  <sipa> however, the proposal is to also add a version byte to the script under witness
 400 2015-12-10T08:36:15  <sipa> which would make it much easier to add new opcodes in the future
 401 2015-12-10T08:36:30  <sipa> including one that covers the amount in the sighash
 402 2015-12-10T08:37:50  <jonasschnelli> Okay. Got it (PUSHDATA [version_byte + validation_script]), and hardware wallet need to make sure they use the new sighash type (if once rolled out).
 403 2015-12-10T08:38:47  <aj> sipa: for a single pay to public key, does segwit just mean p2pkh uses a 32B address rather than a 20B one now? (rusty suggested you might be (planning on?) using the version byte to allow a shorter p2pkh)
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 405 2015-12-10T08:44:13  <sipa> aj: for simple pay to pubkey you'd put the pubkey directly in the ouput, without hash
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 407 2015-12-10T08:45:56  <btcdrak> aj: would you mind publishing your htlc demos to github?
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 410 2015-12-10T08:46:27  <aj> sipa: hmm. i don't see how that could possibly work...
 411 2015-12-10T08:47:04  <aj> btcdrak: sure; did you have any improvement suggestions though?
 412 2015-12-10T08:47:39  <sipa> aj: inside a push
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 414 2015-12-10T08:48:36  <aj> sipa: with the 02/03 compressed-point-indicator being treated as the "version" or?
 415 2015-12-10T08:50:38  <aj> sipa: oh, or just version==0, and the output is the p2pkh script?
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 417 2015-12-10T08:51:00  <aj> sipa: err, the witness program is the p2pkh script? not sure of the terminology
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 421 2015-12-10T08:54:07  <olalonde> So soft forks will just be a matter of increasing the version_byte and waiting?
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 427 2015-12-10T08:55:55  <gmaxwell> olalonde: well, and writing the actual feature...
 428 2015-12-10T08:56:05  <olalonde> Yeah, that helps :)
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 446 2015-12-10T09:17:57  <LeMiner2> Why will SW transactions only work from 3etcetc addresses? By design or is it for some technical reason?
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 448 2015-12-10T09:21:08  <btcdrak> aj: it's a good demo of an advanced usecase. It's good as is. It's up to you, other simpler script examples would also be good.
 449 2015-12-10T09:21:36  <btcdrak> aj: I submitted your python-bitcoinlib fix as a PR to petertodd's repo so hopefully he'll merge shortly.
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 467 2015-12-10T09:52:04  <Luke-Jr> LeMiner2: 1etcetc addresses are pay-to-pubkeyhash; there's no flexibility in that
 468 2015-12-10T09:52:20  <Luke-Jr> LeMiner2: pay-to-script-hash (3etcetc) however lets you use any script
 469 2015-12-10T09:52:25  <Luke-Jr> including the new one for SW
 470 2015-12-10T09:53:05  <LeMiner2> ic, thanks luke :)
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 500 2015-12-10T10:38:28  <Lightsword> would SW break any existing stratum implementations pool or miner side?
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 505 2015-12-10T10:42:02  <gmaxwell> Lightsword: Intended not to; obviously hasn't been tested for that yet.
 506 2015-12-10T10:42:32  <gmaxwell> But no, I consider it a design constraint to not disturb mining infrastructure; we know that if it does that it creates huge deployment dealys.
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 590 2015-12-10T12:58:36  <lysobit> Hm. Anyone on the mailing should examine the headers of https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011936.html
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 621 2015-12-10T13:44:09  <jl2012> kanzure: http://www.coindesk.com/craig-wright-pgp-key-data-cast-suspicion-on-satoshi-claims/
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 626 2015-12-10T13:52:27  <JackH> how come the focus is so much on SW right now and not the CVS opcode?
 627 2015-12-10T13:53:07  <JackH> to my understading lightning would be much better of if we had the option to wait to commit a transaction to miners rather than focusing on SW
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 638 2015-12-10T14:01:20  <instagibbs> JackH, both are being worked on
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 640 2015-12-10T14:01:56  <JackH> alright great then
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 680 2015-12-10T15:21:36  <btcdrak> lysobit: it's spoofed this time.
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 742 2015-12-10T16:50:48  <jamesob> anyone know about the variable-type prefix scheme used in core, e.g. 'fMineBlocksOnDemand = false', where 'f' seems to denote bool?
 743 2015-12-10T16:53:01  <jamesob> seems to be some variant of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation
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 745 2015-12-10T16:56:35  <instagibbs> the others are pretty straight forward. Unsure why "f".
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 751 2015-12-10T17:03:12  <morcos> jamesob: f = flag, but thats no longer part of the required coding style
 752 2015-12-10T17:03:41  <jamesob> thanks, morcos
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 763 2015-12-10T17:24:56  <kanzure> would it be correct with reply with "segwit" to prusnak's question here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7089
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 767 2015-12-10T17:27:28  <jl2012> kanzure: it's number 3 on my wish list: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011935.html
 768 2015-12-10T17:27:47  <kanzure> i mean the last question,
 769 2015-12-10T17:27:54  <kanzure> "comprehensive soft-fork CHECKSIG upgrade proposal"
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 773 2015-12-10T17:30:06  <jl2012> i guess so. Although gmaxwell seems not want to include too much changes in the first version of SW: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011938.html
 774 2015-12-10T17:30:53  <jl2012> maybe he's talking about a CHECKSIG softfork on top of the SW softfork
 775 2015-12-10T17:31:18  <kanzure> hmm i suppose this is unclear, so i'll leave this alone for now
 776 2015-12-10T17:33:24  <jl2012> If the consensus is to deploy SW, no one will try to introduce new OP codes in the original script system. OP_CSV will be the last one
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 780 2015-12-10T17:43:17  <lysobit> btcdrak: how do you know? can anyone post the headers for analysis?
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 783 2015-12-10T17:50:42  <jl2012> lysobit: please move to #bitcoin
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 792 2015-12-10T18:13:52  <notcraigwright> Sorry about all that, I didn’t think the message would actually go through.
 793 2015-12-10T18:15:53  <notcraigwright> Had I realized there was no SPF check or anything, I would have at least tried a little harder.
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 796 2015-12-10T18:16:22  <notcraigwright> 297057d1024b8631e5d4961b7c9ebfa871b63c39f8d102adc88e955da4499311
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 804 2015-12-10T18:37:50  <kanzure> is that a valid signature for anything?
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 808 2015-12-10T18:48:04  <kanzure> nevermind
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 816 2015-12-10T19:00:13  <BlueMatt> mtg?
 817 2015-12-10T19:00:16  <jonasschnelli> Meeting? Or do we skip because ok sb in hk?
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 819 2015-12-10T19:00:28  <BlueMatt> many of us are back from hk :)
 820 2015-12-10T19:00:59  <BlueMatt> roll call?
 821 2015-12-10T19:01:17  <sdaftuar> present
 822 2015-12-10T19:01:19  <morcos> here
 823 2015-12-10T19:01:20  <harding> present
 824 2015-12-10T19:01:26  <gmaxwell> Hello meeting.
 825 2015-12-10T19:01:30  <ProximityD> 1
 826 2015-12-10T19:01:36  <wumpus> #meetingstart
 827 2015-12-10T19:01:38  <btcdrak> hello meeting
 828 2015-12-10T19:01:40  <BlueMatt> I'd call that a quorum
 829 2015-12-10T19:01:42  <BlueMatt> :)
 830 2015-12-10T19:01:42  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 831 2015-12-10T19:01:42  <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Dec 10 19:01:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 832 2015-12-10T19:01:42  <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 833 2015-12-10T19:02:17  <wumpus> <morcos> wumpus: suggested topics for todays meeting: 1)  BIP 68 questions - a) semantic change to assume MTP  b) implentation approach change to #7184
 834 2015-12-10T19:02:34  <wumpus> start with those?
 835 2015-12-10T19:02:43  <BlueMatt> yup
 836 2015-12-10T19:02:50  <jonasschnelli> sure
 837 2015-12-10T19:02:53  <btcdrak> ack
 838 2015-12-10T19:02:59  <wumpus> !topic BIP 68 questions - a) semantic change to assume MTP
 839 2015-12-10T19:03:00  <gmaxwell> ack
 840 2015-12-10T19:03:00  <gribble> (topic [<channel>]) -- Returns the topic for <channel>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
 841 2015-12-10T19:03:05  *** deego1 is now known as deego
 842 2015-12-10T19:03:09  <morcos> so for people that didn't see the 1)a) discussion.  i thin k it makes sense if we just always use prior blocks MTP for bip68 sequence lock comparisons
 843 2015-12-10T19:03:37  <btcdrak> morcos: it makes sense to me, since BIP68 and BIP113(mtp) are intended to be sf together
 844 2015-12-10T19:03:50  <gmaxwell> I think that makes sense. It will force us to make the 113 softfork at the same time, but I expected we would in any case.
 845 2015-12-10T19:04:09  <morcos> it'll potentially simplify BIP 68 implementation and since no policy for BIP 68 is in the wild yet, why introduce the possibility of configuring a very temporary BIP68/non-MTP policy
 846 2015-12-10T19:04:18  <morcos> gmaxwell: won't actually force that
 847 2015-12-10T19:04:24  <morcos> it just means BIP68 is defined that way
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 851 2015-12-10T19:04:38  <btcdrak> gmaxwell: we discussed doing them together in quite a few previous meetings so I think there's no particular change of plan
 852 2015-12-10T19:04:40  <morcos> it'll be somewhat annoying if BIP68 and nLockTime have different semantics, but only somewhat
 853 2015-12-10T19:05:16  <morcos> are there any objections?
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 855 2015-12-10T19:05:23  <gmaxwell> morcos: that would be pretty obnoxious though. But fair enough.
 856 2015-12-10T19:05:47  <btcdrak> let's do it.
 857 2015-12-10T19:05:48  <morcos> yes to be clear i think they should soft fork in together and standard policy is already  MTP
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 859 2015-12-10T19:06:36  <sdaftuar> ok so lets talk about the alternate implementation approach in 7184?
 860 2015-12-10T19:06:41  <wumpus> #topic BIP 68 questions - b) implentation approach change to #7184
 861 2015-12-10T19:06:49  <gmaxwell> One nice thing is that BIP65 should have likely seralized MTP-standardness deployment.
 862 2015-12-10T19:07:08  <morcos> so i don't need to beg for code review yet, b/c i think BIP 68 is waiting for post 0.12 release anwyay
 863 2015-12-10T19:07:28  <morcos> but what i would appreciate is some feedback on whether changing the implentation in 6312 is a good idea or not
 864 2015-12-10T19:07:43  <morcos> i like splitting sequence lock consensus code from nLockTime consensus code
 865 2015-12-10T19:07:47  <btcdrak> morcos: wrong, we beg for code reviews. It can be merged like BIP65 which remained as policy code for months before we added the softfork code
 866 2015-12-10T19:07:55  <gavinandresen> I can't resist throwing in a pet peeve: it'd help people who read these meeting notes if acronyms were spelled out first time they were used.  MTP --> mean time previous ... (now I'll be quiet again)
 867 2015-12-10T19:08:00  <morcos> i think it makes sense for consensus code units to be small and self contained
 868 2015-12-10T19:08:15  <btcdrak> MTP: median time past
 869 2015-12-10T19:08:22  <btcdrak> MTP is BIP113
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 871 2015-12-10T19:08:56  <morcos> so i'd just like people to maybe take a look at the code approach of #7184, and give feed back
 872 2015-12-10T19:09:02  <gmaxwell> gavinandresen: there is a for-layman summary that gets posted; the author often contacts people after the meeting for help expanding things.
 873 2015-12-10T19:09:21  <wumpus> #action take a look at code approach of #7184
 874 2015-12-10T19:09:23  <morcos> if we like it, we can change the BIP to reflect a different implenetation idea.   but the semantics are unchanged modulo the prior topic
 875 2015-12-10T19:09:41  <BlueMatt> as for #7184 - I dont find CNB performance to be of critical importance (getblocktemplate shouldn't rely on CNB to be fast)
 876 2015-12-10T19:09:45  <gavinandresen> gmaxwell: ok, feel free to ignore my pet peeve, it might just be me who has a secret superpower of forgetting acronyms
 877 2015-12-10T19:09:58  <morcos> BlueMatt: I specifically didn't mention that because I think #7184 makes sense on its own
 878 2015-12-10T19:10:00  <BlueMatt> the fact that getblocktemplate relies on CNB to be fast is kinda broken, it should be background-updated
 879 2015-12-10T19:10:20  <morcos> there are details in its implementaion that allow speeding up CNB, that coudl be removed if they in particular are bad
 880 2015-12-10T19:10:21  <btcdrak> morcos: I think it's worth asking for ideas on 7187 too
 881 2015-12-10T19:10:23  <wumpus> gavinandresen: no, I agree, feel free to ask when acronyms are unclear
 882 2015-12-10T19:10:38  <gavinandresen> CNB == CreateNewBlock for anybody else with my secret superpower
 883 2015-12-10T19:10:38  <BlueMatt> morcos: I dont have a particularly strong opinion about 7184 vs 6312, though 6312 has gotten some review and is probably a bit more mature
 884 2015-12-10T19:10:40  <btcdrak> CNB = CreateNewBlock()
 885 2015-12-10T19:11:10  <BlueMatt> morcos: I was just commenting that we shouldnt be considering CNB performance that strongly for 7184
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 887 2015-12-10T19:11:30  <btcdrak> BlueMatt: in all fairness, 6312 has changed so much over 6 months it's not fair to say the current PR has all the same review.
 888 2015-12-10T19:11:45  <morcos> BlueMatt: background updating CNB isn't super easy b/c of locking.  not saying it can't be done.  also the one thing that will never be able to be done is making it fast to return a new template with txs after a new block is found unless you do soemthing like i'm proposing
 889 2015-12-10T19:11:49  <BlueMatt> i wasnt claiming it had a ton of review, but it does have some
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 891 2015-12-10T19:12:14  <sdaftuar> BlueMatt: 6312 is confusing in my opinion because it changes the consensus code that does nLockTime checks.  splitting consensus checks into their smallest logical unit makes more sense, i think -- that's why i like morcos' approach in 7184
 892 2015-12-10T19:12:24  <BlueMatt> morcos: oh? I dont see how its /that/ hard to do background updating due to locking?
 893 2015-12-10T19:12:41  <btcdrak> sdaftaur: I'm much more in favour of 7184 than 6312.
 894 2015-12-10T19:12:57  <BlueMatt> morcos: how is it not possible to make it fast to make getblocktemplate return an empty block?
 895 2015-12-10T19:13:04  <BlueMatt> that should be easy
 896 2015-12-10T19:13:07  <morcos> BlueMatt: its perhaps a subject for another conversation, not impossible, but not trivial, you need access to a lot of the mempool state.   yes, that is possible, i said with txs
 897 2015-12-10T19:13:22  <BlueMatt> oh, with txns, ok, yes, ofc
 898 2015-12-10T19:13:44  <morcos> do people in general think that having the sequence locks be combined with nlocktime locks makes sense
 899 2015-12-10T19:13:53  <BlueMatt> but, yea, getblocktemplate reworking is a separate conversation (we could discuss today if we get bored, though should probably go implement something to discuss first)
 900 2015-12-10T19:14:00  <morcos> you get these weird things in 6312, liek calling LockTime with null prevHeights
 901 2015-12-10T19:14:25  <oldbrew> seen alot of empty blocks being mined when the mempool is high
 902 2015-12-10T19:14:39  <morcos> BlueMatt: also regardless of end design for CNB, 0.12 will have a serious regression if we lookup every input for sequence locks
 903 2015-12-10T19:15:04  <BlueMatt> morcos: oh? I figured that stuff would be in 0.12.1?
 904 2015-12-10T19:15:18  <BlueMatt> and a background-CNB should be a small enough patch to backport, I'd think
 905 2015-12-10T19:15:19  <morcos> yes, 0.12 fast CNB.  0.12.1 slow CNB
 906 2015-12-10T19:15:27  <morcos> ha, definitely not
 907 2015-12-10T19:15:35  <morcos> well, the empty template version
 908 2015-12-10T19:15:36  <BlueMatt> maybe I need to look closer
 909 2015-12-10T19:15:42  <BlueMatt> yea, empty templates is fine
 910 2015-12-10T19:15:46  <morcos> ehh...
 911 2015-12-10T19:15:49  <BlueMatt> empty templates is what you want, actually
 912 2015-12-10T19:15:51  <sdaftuar> non-empty templates are achievable...
 913 2015-12-10T19:15:52  <BlueMatt> non-empty templates sucks
 914 2015-12-10T19:16:04  <morcos> sigh.. ok, back to BIP 68
 915 2015-12-10T19:16:14  <btcdrak> BlueMatt: there is an issue to discuss the performance https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7190
 916 2015-12-10T19:16:46  <morcos> i think it makes sense on its own, i think the consensus checks for seq locks outght to give you back the relevant information determined by the consensus logic (especially if there are expensive calculations in preparing the inputs to those functions)
 917 2015-12-10T19:16:56  <morcos> that might be useful many places, not just CNB
 918 2015-12-10T19:17:17  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: while I agree CNB should be made latency non-crticial I don't think it's okay to make it actually slow.
 919 2015-12-10T19:17:32  <morcos> its also blowing out your UTXO cache
 920 2015-12-10T19:17:44  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: maybe I'm missing context, how slow are we talking? a second or two is fine
 921 2015-12-10T19:17:52  <BlueMatt> anyway, I'll shut up
 922 2015-12-10T19:18:01  <morcos> forget about latency of CNB, if you recalculate every sequence lock dumbly then your UTXO cache is useless after a reorg
 923 2015-12-10T19:18:06  <btcdrak> Yeah, there is no choice. 6312 would be a regression, it needs to be fixed
 924 2015-12-10T19:18:47  <BlueMatt> ok, yea, blowing out utxo cache is unacceptable
 925 2015-12-10T19:19:11  <morcos> anwyay perhaps people want to look at the code first, but i wanted to highlight this idea of not touching the IsFinalTx checks and just adding new checks for the new soft fork.
 926 2015-12-10T19:19:38  <morcos> additionaly related question that i've asked and no one has commented on is the GUI display of currently locked txs
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 928 2015-12-10T19:20:01  <morcos> for expediency i suggested removing checking sequence locks there
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 930 2015-12-10T19:20:16  <morcos> i can't see how that's necessary except very rarely
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 934 2015-12-10T19:21:08  <wumpus> what is the problem specific to the GUI there?
 935 2015-12-10T19:21:11  <morcos> if there is a reorg that makes your tx no longer acceptable to the mempool, then it'll be out of the mempool, but maybe you want to know that the reason is its locked
 936 2015-12-10T19:21:18  <btcdrak> sorry previously posted the wrong link to the discussion ticket re CNB performance, should be https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7176
 937 2015-12-10T19:21:20  <morcos> i just don't know when that code gets excercise
 938 2015-12-10T19:21:25  <morcos> how do you have a locked tx in your wallet
 939 2015-12-10T19:21:58  <wumpus> right, there is no concept of that at this point, they would have to be shown differently I suppsoe
 940 2015-12-10T19:22:19  <morcos> well IsFinal is checked right now, and this was addressed in #6312
 941 2015-12-10T19:22:19  <wumpus> same for listtransactions RPC
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 943 2015-12-10T19:22:49  <gmaxwell> well anyone can create and send you one, but with MTP in effect, I don't think a one deep reorg can ever force the eviction of one.
 944 2015-12-10T19:23:02  <morcos> but my point is I think its fine to leave that less than ideal for now (not touch it) and clean it up properly later, rather than hack in something for sequence locks which might end up blowing out your utxo cache and making wallet things slow
 945 2015-12-10T19:23:04  <gmaxwell> oh I guess it can, because of time locks.
 946 2015-12-10T19:23:39  <sdaftuar> if a confirmed input became unconfirmed then it can force the eviction (that can happen in a 1-deep reorg)
 947 2015-12-10T19:23:45  <morcos> just checking sequence locks on all wallet txs seems dangerous
 948 2015-12-10T19:23:57  <sdaftuar> for height locks too i mean
 949 2015-12-10T19:24:10  <jonasschnelli> whats dangerous about it?
 950 2015-12-10T19:24:30  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: we shouldn't have unconfirmed locked transactions in the wallet to begin with.
 951 2015-12-10T19:24:35  <morcos> checking sequence locks is expensive
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 954 2015-12-10T19:25:25  <gmaxwell> It's espensive because you have to pull in the input utxos to get their heights.
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 956 2015-12-10T19:26:15  <jonasschnelli> Okay. But how many locked wtx per wallet do we expect,... only update the cache during a tip update seems okay?
 957 2015-12-10T19:26:19  <wumpus> but you only have to check it for possibly locked transactions, not for all transactions?
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 959 2015-12-10T19:26:50  <morcos> sure sure, i'm not saying we shouldn't ever do it, i'm just saying naively adding it as was done in 6312 is bad
 960 2015-12-10T19:27:09  <morcos> and it doesn't seem important enough to include in the soft fork that must be backported for BIP 68
 961 2015-12-10T19:27:13  <wumpus> (e.g. keep a flag for what, don't check it all the time unless something changes)
 962 2015-12-10T19:27:16  <wumpus> I agree
 963 2015-12-10T19:27:20  <morcos> s/is bad/is potentially bad/
 964 2015-12-10T19:27:23  <gmaxwell> Sipa is travling now but I expect he'd have more comments on the wallet impact. I hadn't been paying attention to it because he was.
 965 2015-12-10T19:27:27  <wumpus> doesn't need to be part of that
 966 2015-12-10T19:27:59  <morcos> wumpus: the idea of my 7184 implentation is you get access to all the relevant lock state, time , height, hash at which those values are valid
 967 2015-12-10T19:28:00  <wumpus> UI/wallet changes are usually separate from the softfork changes
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 969 2015-12-10T19:28:07  <morcos> that could be used by the mempool, by CNB, by the wallet
 970 2015-12-10T19:28:12  <morcos> it just seems the right way to do it
 971 2015-12-10T19:28:12  <wumpus> right
 972 2015-12-10T19:28:23  <wumpus> yes that makes sense
 973 2015-12-10T19:28:29  <jonasschnelli> so 7184 would hide any bip68/113 tx from listtransaction and UI?
 974 2015-12-10T19:28:30  <morcos> using that information i left out of 7184
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 976 2015-12-10T19:28:45  <morcos> jonasschnelli: no, they would just not be aware of those txs
 977 2015-12-10T19:28:59  <morcos> sorry, if they were currently locked they wouldn't be aware of them
 978 2015-12-10T19:29:16  <morcos> if they were able to be included, then they would not be aware that they had previously be locked
 979 2015-12-10T19:29:18  <jonasschnelli> because of the isFinal check?
 980 2015-12-10T19:29:28  <morcos> but if they are currently locked, then they're not in the mempool anyway
 981 2015-12-10T19:29:47  <morcos> isFinal has to do with nLockTime, i'm trying to completely separate sequence lock logic from that
 982 2015-12-10T19:30:01  <jonasschnelli> Okay. Well, .. i agree with wumpus: wallet/UI changes can be done later
 983 2015-12-10T19:30:01  <morcos> i think we need to clean up how the wallet/GUI deals with both
 984 2015-12-10T19:30:07  <morcos> correct
 985 2015-12-10T19:30:20  <morcos> the thing is, IsFinal is cheap , so no reason to worry we check that now
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 987 2015-12-10T19:31:33  <jonasschnelli> We just need to make sure, the wallet doesn't lack to far behind (RBF).
 988 2015-12-10T19:31:45  <morcos> in any case, i mispoke before.  the proposed wallet behavior is: if a tx is sequence locked and can't be included in a block, it won't ever end up in your wallet (or your mempool) unless it was originally unlocked and in your wallet (and mempool) and then a reorg caused it to be locked, in which case it woudl be evicted from your mempool
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 990 2015-12-10T19:31:57  <morcos> in that case your wallet would display it like any other evicted tx
 991 2015-12-10T19:32:42  <morcos> the proposed behavior is the result of not touching wallet/gui code
 992 2015-12-10T19:33:05  <jonasschnelli> thats good. :)
 993 2015-12-10T19:33:05  <morcos> ok , anyway, i didn't want to hijack this whole meeting to discuss one pull
 994 2015-12-10T19:33:37  <morcos> but i'd just like to get some clarity b/c i feel bad hijacking 6312 into a different implementaion if it slows down its merging, since we all would like the functionality
 995 2015-12-10T19:33:48  <morcos> so would be nice to agree on a approach
 996 2015-12-10T19:34:38  <btcdrak> morcos: I wouldnt worry. 7184 is an improvement for sure, as is assuming MTP.
 997 2015-12-10T19:36:13  <morcos> next topic?
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 999 2015-12-10T19:36:40  <btcdrak> I'd also like to mention aj wrote some python demos for BIP68/+CSV which will be useful for testers
1000 2015-12-10T19:37:08  <morcos> i'd suggested this question:  mempool containing only txs valid for the next block : is this something it would make sense to relax in the future, under what constraints?
1001 2015-12-10T19:37:09  <btcdrak> Those should be pushed to guthub soon
1002 2015-12-10T19:37:39  <Lightsword> looks like BIP65 will activate soon, Antpool does not appear to be producing any more v3 blocks
1003 2015-12-10T19:38:19  * btcdrak jumps for joy
1004 2015-12-10T19:38:41  <wumpus> great
1005 2015-12-10T19:38:46  <btcdrak> are there any more topics wumpus?
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1007 2015-12-10T19:39:17  <gmaxwell> morcos: mempool should only contain things which can be cheaply skipped for the next block? e.g. (near) future locktimes seem mostly fine to me.
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1010 2015-12-10T19:39:44  <wumpus> btcdrak: none that I know of
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1012 2015-12-10T19:39:57  <btcdrak> looks like BIP65 will enforce on Monday
1013 2015-12-10T19:39:58  <morcos> gmaxwell: ok, thats what i thought, and i'm sure there are lots of implementation things to think about, but i just wondered if people had previously thought about this and had reasons it woudl be a bad idea
1014 2015-12-10T19:42:18  <btcdrak> Seems like we're done?
1015 2015-12-10T19:42:33  <wumpus> if there are no suggestions for topics?
1016 2015-12-10T19:43:11  <btcdrak> *crickets*
1017 2015-12-10T19:43:14  <wumpus> okay
1018 2015-12-10T19:43:18  <wumpus> #endmeeting
1019 2015-12-10T19:43:18  <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Dec 10 19:43:18 2015 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1020 2015-12-10T19:43:18  <lightningbot`> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-10-19.01.html
1021 2015-12-10T19:43:18  <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-10-19.01.txt
1022 2015-12-10T19:43:18  <lightningbot`> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-10-19.01.log.html
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1168 2015-12-10T23:14:25  <rusty> kanzure: got a moment for a moderation test?
1169 2015-12-10T23:15:06  <kanzure> sure what's up
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1171 2015-12-10T23:20:16  <rusty> kanzure: done, please moderate.
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1173 2015-12-10T23:21:04  * oldbrew moderates by having another beer
1174 2015-12-10T23:23:14  <sipa> is it a beer with moderate alcoholic content?
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1176 2015-12-10T23:25:01  <oldbrew> could just have some scotch instead
1177 2015-12-10T23:25:31  <oldbrew> good stuff 43%
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1180 2015-12-10T23:29:34  <kanzure> rusty: rejected
1181 2015-12-10T23:30:48  <rusty> kanzure: as expected.. https://lists.ozlabs.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev-moderation/2015-December/000014.html
1182 2015-12-10T23:32:19  <kanzure> rusty: see my email thread reply
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