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126 2015-12-14T05:23:01 <jl2012> rusty: Actually, I don't even think my proposal should be discussed in bitcoin-dev list in the first place. It's mostly suitable for bitcointalk, but its dev section is basically dead.
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132 2015-12-14T05:29:48 <jl2012> A forum like bitcointalk has many benefits for such dicussions: 1. it's better for short and rapid response; 2. it's possible to edit a proposal; 3. do not need to send to everybody's inbox.
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135 2015-12-14T05:31:57 <jl2012> Devs and experts have been very active in the forum, but now most of them are gone. I think the reason is that the SNR is becoming too bad as people are spamming just to promote their ad sig.
136 2015-12-14T05:35:20 <jl2012> If we could have a section that only a sub-group of people may start a new thread, and thread starter could self-moderate by default, do you think more experts would join discussion there?
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138 2015-12-14T05:41:02 <phantomcircuit> jl2012, unfortunately bitcointalk has been almost entirely abandoned by serious developers
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140 2015-12-14T05:42:30 <jl2012> phantomcircuit: I understand why it is abandoned, but I don't see why we can't revive it
141 2015-12-14T05:42:59 <jl2012> We have IRC for instant discussion, but very poor documentation
142 2015-12-14T05:44:18 <jl2012> We have mailing list for very good documentation, but not good for meticulous discussion and debate
143 2015-12-14T05:44:49 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: I think reddit's design makes more sense
144 2015-12-14T05:44:51 <jl2012> A forum should fill the gap: good documentation and meticulous discussion
145 2015-12-14T05:47:07 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: I'm fine with either reddit or bitcointalk
146 2015-12-14T05:47:23 <Luke-Jr> actually, forums don't seem very good for documentation either
147 2015-12-14T05:47:28 <Luke-Jr> IRC + wiki maybe the best :p
148 2015-12-14T05:48:31 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: At least I could still easily search the posts by Satoshi, also the debate of P2SH on bitcointalk
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150 2015-12-14T05:48:49 <Luke-Jr> personality cults are something to discourage, not encourage <.<
151 2015-12-14T05:48:59 <Luke-Jr> much of P2SH was on IRC fwiw
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154 2015-12-14T05:50:02 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: Only a real archaeologist would look at IRC for P2SH debate
155 2015-12-14T05:51:37 <jl2012> As I learnt bitcoin in mid-2012, all my knowledge related to OP_EVAL is coming from bitcointalk
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158 2015-12-14T05:57:48 <jl2012> So, my question is, would serious developers like to use a highly moderated bitcointalk section, or a bitcoin-wizards subreddit?
159 2015-12-14T05:57:54 <Luke-Jr> scary, we probably all look like fools back then, in hindsight :P
160 2015-12-14T06:02:06 <btcdrak> jl2012, just wanted to say thanks for the thoughtful posts to the dev list.
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162 2015-12-14T06:02:57 <btcdrak> jl2012, a subreddit would be ok for me, providing it is *highly* moderated so it doesn't get brigaded. Reddit is a terrible platform when participants are not acting in good faith.
163 2015-12-14T06:03:49 <bitcoin-dev760> Hey..I am new to bitcoin codebase... Can anyone help me understand why we have InitHTTPServer and StartHTTPServer seperately in src/httpserver.cpp?
164 2015-12-14T06:04:00 <btcdrak> jl2012: although bitcointalk.org is also a good place for discussion if that could be revived, it's as good as.
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166 2015-12-14T06:05:24 <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: can you imagine the drama though?
167 2015-12-14T06:06:06 <btcdrak> judging by r/btc yes, but let them drama in their own sub!
168 2015-12-14T06:08:32 <jl2012> Luke-Jr, btckdrak: if we could have a sub-section in bitcointalk, that only allows dicussion of ideas from the bitcoin-dev list, would that be helpful?
169 2015-12-14T06:09:00 <btcdrak> jl2012 either way works for me. You need to convince devs to participate. Reddit might be better
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171 2015-12-14T06:09:13 <btcdrak> I created a sub incase someone hijacked it, I'll hand it over to you
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173 2015-12-14T06:09:34 <Luke-Jr> I am mostly satisfied with ML + IRC for now, but I wouldn't object.
174 2015-12-14T06:09:48 <btcdrak> jl2012: your idea though, you decide what you want to try and try to market it
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193 2015-12-14T06:55:21 <btcdrak> 55 blocks until we can OP_HODL on mainnet!
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213 2015-12-14T07:38:13 <jl2012> btcdrak: what is the earliest height for that?
214 2015-12-14T07:40:53 <btcdrak> jl2012: I think it's block #387367
215 2015-12-14T07:41:54 <btcdrak> jl2012: providing someone doesnt produce a v3 block before then of course. anyway, it's maybe +1 of that block or +2 if we're really unlucky
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220 2015-12-14T07:48:05 <jl2012> btcdrak: thanks. I guess you are refering to #388367
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223 2015-12-14T07:49:37 <btcdrak> jl2012: yeah derp! 50 blocks from the current block now.
224 2015-12-14T07:50:06 <btcdrak> jl2012: so block #388353
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229 2015-12-14T07:56:54 <jl2012> I don't think it's 388353
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231 2015-12-14T07:57:16 <jl2012> the 50th v3 is 387380, the 51th v3 is 387366
232 2015-12-14T07:57:55 <jl2012> should be 388367?
233 2015-12-14T07:58:04 <jl2012> the 51th v3 + 1001?
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239 2015-12-14T08:08:24 <jl2012> I think it's right. If all blocks until 388366 are v4, 388367 is the first block that must be v4
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259 2015-12-14T09:12:24 <jl2012> an anonymous miner found a v3. Deployment delayed to block 387381
260 2015-12-14T09:12:29 <jl2012> 388381
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280 2015-12-14T09:51:27 <veggi3> hi
281 2015-12-14T09:51:34 <veggi3> why are you guys removing priority?
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287 2015-12-14T10:02:19 <btcdrak> jl2012: I calculated by counting the number of block required for the remaining v3 blocks to drop off so there are 950 v4 blocks out of 1000, then add that number to the current blocknumber
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290 2015-12-14T10:03:24 <jl2012> btcdrak: if no further v3 is found, 388381 will be the first block that must be v4
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292 2015-12-14T10:05:10 <btcdrak> jl2012: I make it 388377. today for sure.
293 2015-12-14T10:06:09 <jl2012> i think you count it in a wrong way
294 2015-12-14T10:06:26 <jl2012> no matter what, it must not be 388377
295 2015-12-14T10:07:21 <btcdrak> well if I am a block out, it would be 388383
296 2015-12-14T10:07:25 <jl2012> it might be 388377 only if we have a v3 around 387377, but no v3 there
297 2015-12-14T10:07:49 <jl2012> also not possible for 388383
298 2015-12-14T10:07:53 <veggi3> if you take out priority from bitcoin, what is going to happen when all the bitcoin users protest and dont pay fees anymore?
299 2015-12-14T10:08:07 <jl2012> I'm quite sure it is 388381
300 2015-12-14T10:08:10 <veggi3> i can make a movement to protest this and then bitcoin will become insolvent
301 2015-12-14T10:08:35 <btcdrak> veggi3: seems rather dramatic
302 2015-12-14T10:08:49 <veggi3> i thought most chinese miners dont pay fees, no?
303 2015-12-14T10:09:06 <veggi3> so isn't this a racist idea anyways? to get rid of the chiense?
304 2015-12-14T10:09:45 <veggi3> who is behind this idea to get rid of priority anyways?
305 2015-12-14T10:09:48 <veggi3> what are their names?
306 2015-12-14T10:10:13 <veggi3> this idea is worse than xt
307 2015-12-14T10:11:24 <jl2012> btcdrak: the activation height should be the height of 51st v3 block + 1001
308 2015-12-14T10:11:36 <btcdrak> veggi3: please take this to #bitcoin
309 2015-12-14T10:13:09 <btcdrak> jl2012: I just wish it would hurry up, I want to broadcast my OP_HODL!
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312 2015-12-14T10:14:24 <btcdrak> jl2012: trying to convince coinb.in to create some templates so people can start using HODL to do escrow and stuff. Do you know any js programmers?
313 2015-12-14T10:15:03 <jl2012> it should have been an hour or so earlier, if there has not been a v3 recently
314 2015-12-14T10:15:45 <jl2012> I don't want to miss the drama, in case we have an SPV mining fork again
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316 2015-12-14T10:21:08 <jl2012> btcdrak: I'm not a programmer and either know a suitable one....
317 2015-12-14T10:22:35 <jl2012> countdown to BIP65: 48 blocks
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343 2015-12-14T11:34:57 <T3Xploit> @sipa you around?
344 2015-12-14T11:35:05 <sipa> yes
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368 2015-12-14T12:16:26 <jl2012> sipa: I think we have to be very careful when applying the "exactly one true value" rule in segwit
369 2015-12-14T12:17:17 <jl2012> This immediately kills my proposal: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011952.html
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372 2015-12-14T12:20:06 <jl2012> and also the proposal of putting the location of input in the witness
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375 2015-12-14T12:22:34 <gmaxwell> jl2012: no it doesn't.
376 2015-12-14T12:22:48 <gmaxwell> the location is just part of the utxo data. (it already is today)
377 2015-12-14T12:23:35 <jl2012> I'm talking about the fraud proof in sipa's talk
378 2015-12-14T12:24:23 <jl2012> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/hong-kong/segregated-witness-and-its-impact-on-scalability/
379 2015-12-14T12:24:48 <gmaxwell> jl2012: I know what you're talking about, and you're incorrect.
380 2015-12-14T12:24:48 <jl2012> search for "you can instead make the witness contain the height of the block which produced the outputs"
381 2015-12-14T12:25:01 <gmaxwell> Yes, which is already part of the txouts.
382 2015-12-14T12:25:17 <gmaxwell> It's needed for the maturity check, and will also be needed for relative locktime.
383 2015-12-14T12:25:49 <gmaxwell> So it would need to be part of the data that your above post carries with it already.
384 2015-12-14T12:26:06 <jl2012> but this is not committed to the block
385 2015-12-14T12:27:12 <gmaxwell> You must still obtain it to verify, so you must still know it when you prepare your block, so you can stil provide it in the witness.
386 2015-12-14T12:27:39 <jtoomim> has BIP248 been implemented? If so, can someone point me to the code?
387 2015-12-14T12:27:52 <gmaxwell> jtoomim: there is no such bip.
388 2015-12-14T12:27:58 <jtoomim> i know
389 2015-12-14T12:28:01 <jtoomim> it's a nickname
390 2015-12-14T12:28:05 <jtoomim> so no code yet?
391 2015-12-14T12:29:07 <jl2012> as I understand, in sipa's talk, he refered to comitting these info to the blockchain through the witness
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393 2015-12-14T12:29:28 <jl2012> it's for SPV, not for full nodes
394 2015-12-14T12:29:55 <sipa> it's for fraud-proof-checking full nodes; SPV nodes can't verify fraud proofs
395 2015-12-14T12:30:06 <sipa> (or at least, you need to see full blocks)
396 2015-12-14T12:30:57 <jl2012> sipa: Full nodes by definition verifies the whole chain. Why do they need "fraud proof"?
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398 2015-12-14T12:32:18 <gmaxwell> Thats a little terminiology mangled.
399 2015-12-14T12:32:29 <gmaxwell> Lite nodes don't verify the additional witness information.
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401 2015-12-14T12:32:43 <gmaxwell> But it allows a full node to generate a compact fraud proof that a lite node can verify.
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405 2015-12-14T12:33:35 <jl2012> lite node = SPV node?
406 2015-12-14T12:33:58 <gmaxwell> lite nodes don't generally pay any attention to the witness commitment themselves. (except in so far as data from them may be used to produce a fraud proof. Or an "alert" in the whitepaper terminology)
407 2015-12-14T12:34:08 <gmaxwell> Yes.
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409 2015-12-14T12:36:44 <gmaxwell> jl2012: e.g. a block spends an input that never existed. You want to convince a lite node of this. Today you can't. With the additional commitment, you reveal the backpointer to the txout creation, and then the data at that location (or a proof there is no data there, e.g. block too small).
410 2015-12-14T12:36:50 <jl2012> this is how I understand that part of sipa's talk: as a consensus rule, the witness must contain a pointer to the location of the input. The tx is invalid if the pointer is incorrect. If a malacious miner tries to spend a non-existing input, a full node could generate a compact proof, showing that the pointer committed in the witness does not point to right place.
411 2015-12-14T12:37:10 <gmaxwell> Correct.
412 2015-12-14T12:37:12 <sipa> my terminology is confused: but to verify a fraud proof, you have to see the entire block (all the "corruption possible" checks have to hold)
413 2015-12-14T12:37:41 <sipa> otherwise a miner could have constructed a block with a transaction that does not exist, and never publish it
414 2015-12-14T12:38:15 <jl2012> gmaxwell: ok, so the backpointer must be committed to the block, or SPV node can't verify the backpointer
415 2015-12-14T12:38:24 <gmaxwell> jl2012: correct.
416 2015-12-14T12:38:33 <gmaxwell> jl2012: and this is not incompatible with your scheme.
417 2015-12-14T12:38:35 <sipa> you need something stronger than SPV i mean
418 2015-12-14T12:38:59 <jl2012> gmaxwell: "and this is not incompatible with your scheme." <-------- you misunderstood me
419 2015-12-14T12:39:10 <gmaxwell> jl2012: okay? help me understand.
420 2015-12-14T12:39:21 <jl2012> wait a moment
421 2015-12-14T12:40:12 <jl2012> gmaxwell: I'm talking about this: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011962.html
422 2015-12-14T12:40:34 <jl2012> search "a single TRUE"
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425 2015-12-14T12:41:06 <jl2012> I said "a single TRUE" is incompatible with my proposal and the committment proposal
426 2015-12-14T12:41:44 <sipa> hmm, help me understand that?
427 2015-12-14T12:42:31 <gmaxwell> Oh. jl2012 wants to add his additonal witness by stuffing in the existing witness field; instead of just adding a new witness type.
428 2015-12-14T12:42:41 <sipa> oh
429 2015-12-14T12:42:58 <sipa> you can just define new witness fields the same this one is being added
430 2015-12-14T12:43:06 <gmaxwell> I think it would be better to accomplish your proposal with an additional witness.
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432 2015-12-14T12:43:30 <sipa> newer script versions may treat the witness data very differently anyway
433 2015-12-14T12:43:48 <sipa> you can't assume that adding more data at the end or beginning will always be possible
434 2015-12-14T12:43:50 <jl2012> so you both forsee we will have mutliple witness in the future?
435 2015-12-14T12:44:13 <sipa> plus not knowing what the data represents is terrible for dos protection
436 2015-12-14T12:45:16 <gmaxwell> Yes, unification of witnesses should only be important for getting them into a single commitment struture where its useful to do that.
437 2015-12-14T12:45:33 <jl2012> segregating segregated witness
438 2015-12-14T12:46:00 <gmaxwell> It's turtles all the way down.
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447 2015-12-14T12:53:25 <jl2012> um....maybe you both are right.....but that means more hash trees to maintain
448 2015-12-14T12:54:51 <gmaxwell> jl2012: does what you're suggesting even need a commitment at all? I did not think it did.
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450 2015-12-14T12:55:36 <jl2012> gmaxwell: commitment is needed, again for fraud proof
451 2015-12-14T12:56:14 <jl2012> I haven't think carefully about fraud proof yet. But at least a committment is needed
452 2015-12-14T12:56:26 <jl2012> necessary but may not be sufficient
453 2015-12-14T12:56:39 <gmaxwell> I don't think one is actually needed there.
454 2015-12-14T12:57:29 <gmaxwell> Or rather, the stxo part might so nevermind, hadn't unified those in my mind.
455 2015-12-14T12:57:42 <gmaxwell> In any case, it's reasonable that its a seperate tree.
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457 2015-12-14T13:02:36 <jl2012> I'm fine if more trees will be allowed.
458 2015-12-14T13:03:14 <sipa> i haven't responded to that part of the mail, but for the block commitments i propose (suggested by luke) to use namecoin-style commitments
459 2015-12-14T13:03:18 <jl2012> I wrote this proposal before I learnt segwit. My plan was to put these membership proof in scriptSig
460 2015-12-14T13:03:42 <sipa> where the coinbase (or something else) contains a nonce, a tree size, and a root
461 2015-12-14T13:04:07 <sipa> and there is a deterministic algorithm that given size and nonce determines where in a merkle tree its commitment goes
462 2015-12-14T13:04:31 <sipa> this lets you add nearly unlimited commitments in one hasb
463 2015-12-14T13:04:48 <sipa> while guaranteeing that there is still only one commitment for each type of data
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468 2015-12-14T13:06:34 <jl2012> sipa: any paper for this scheme? or the name?
469 2015-12-14T13:08:16 <sipa> jl2012: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/c5d28fa431e30ac6a85d02c60f11666273a04bf0 (see the block of comments)
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475 2015-12-14T13:11:47 <jl2012> what is aa21a9ed? just a random magic number?
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477 2015-12-14T13:13:07 <sipa> yup
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479 2015-12-14T13:14:05 <sipa> it's inspired by namecoin, though namecoin's algorithm for determining the commitment position is actually broken
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488 2015-12-14T13:20:34 <jl2012> So you are putting the witness root hash inside an expandable Merkle tree, and commit the root hash of the Merkle tree in coinbase?
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490 2015-12-14T13:21:25 <sipa> yup
491 2015-12-14T13:21:56 <sipa> i don't have strong opinions on where the root should go, though
492 2015-12-14T13:22:10 <sipa> maybe a separate coinbase output is easier
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495 2015-12-14T13:22:37 <jl2012> then P2Pool has to adapt, I believe
496 2015-12-14T13:23:00 <sipa> p2p can easily adapt, but indeed :)
497 2015-12-14T13:23:06 <sipa> * p2pool
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499 2015-12-14T13:23:21 <sipa> i'm more worried about mining hardware
500 2015-12-14T13:24:06 <jl2012> I don't think any of those would use the outputs?
501 2015-12-14T13:24:27 <jl2012> but some may use coinbase?
502 2015-12-14T13:25:29 <sipa> maybe :)
503 2015-12-14T13:25:50 <sipa> i'm just no expert on that, so i welcome opinions
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505 2015-12-14T13:28:18 <jl2012> Would you expect the "expandable merkle tree" is very deep? Otherwise, won't collision happen?
506 2015-12-14T13:28:52 <jl2012> I'm talking about this part: SHA256('WitnessV1\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00' || nonce)
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512 2015-12-14T13:32:31 <jl2012> do you mean, if we have 2 witness root hash, the locator of the new one will be SHA256('WitnessV2\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00' || nonce)
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544 2015-12-14T13:55:06 <jl2012> I think I get it. You will just pick a nonce that won't cause collision
545 2015-12-14T13:56:07 <jl2012> so all people will use the same nonce, unless they have more hash to committ than other people
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561 2015-12-14T14:05:10 <Lightsword> does it look like p2pool will fork before the rest of the network does?
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600 2015-12-14T14:34:58 <jl2012> only 17 blocks left
601 2015-12-14T14:35:05 <jl2012> for BIP65
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623 2015-12-14T14:52:51 <btcdrak> praise be!
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642 2015-12-14T15:17:47 <jl2012> no block in 27 minutes....
643 2015-12-14T15:17:51 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
644 2015-12-14T15:18:03 <jl2012> the blockchain doesn't grow when you look at it
645 2015-12-14T15:18:04 <midnightmagic> ;;tblb [ calc 27 * 60 ]
646 2015-12-14T15:18:06 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 27 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 3 hours, 22 minutes, and 47 seconds
647 2015-12-14T15:19:04 <jl2012> oh, just a new one. 13 blocks to go
648 2015-12-14T15:19:16 <btcdrak> gribble should be able to tell us when a softfork activates and enforces....
649 2015-12-14T15:19:23 <btcdrak> maybe he should even do a countdown :)
650 2015-12-14T15:19:51 *** akrmn has quit IRC
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652 2015-12-14T15:20:02 <jl2012> is gribble a bot?
653 2015-12-14T15:20:36 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
654 2015-12-14T15:21:21 <btcdrak> ;;help
655 2015-12-14T15:21:22 <gribble> The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/
656 2015-12-14T15:21:45 <btcdrak> jl2012 there's the link to his commands
657 2015-12-14T15:22:04 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
658 2015-12-14T15:22:34 <btcdrak> jl2012: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Gribble
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660 2015-12-14T15:27:19 <instagibbs> jl2012, I had some mainnet-only issue once with a wallet i was debugging. Next block took 52 minutes :( never watch it
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664 2015-12-14T15:32:08 <jl2012> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect
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667 2015-12-14T15:37:31 <jl2012> 12 to go
668 2015-12-14T15:43:25 <jl2012> 11
669 2015-12-14T15:46:18 <btcdrak> just one v3 block would set us back another hour :/ fingers crossed
670 2015-12-14T15:49:17 <jl2012> 10!
671 2015-12-14T15:51:08 *** helo has quit IRC
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673 2015-12-14T15:55:34 <jl2012> 9
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676 2015-12-14T16:01:49 <jl2012> 8
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685 2015-12-14T16:18:33 <jl2012> ;;tblb [ calc 17 * 60 ]
686 2015-12-14T16:18:35 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 17 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 1 hour, 2 minutes, and 44 seconds
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690 2015-12-14T16:24:51 <instagibbs> ;;tblb [ calc 45 * 60 ]
691 2015-12-14T16:24:53 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 45 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 1 day, 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 2 seconds
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697 2015-12-14T16:39:24 <jl2012> it's already 37 minutes...
698 2015-12-14T16:39:36 <jl2012> ;;tblb [ calc 37 * 60 ]
699 2015-12-14T16:39:38 <gribble> The expected time between blocks taking 37 minutes and 0 seconds to generate is 10 hours, 58 minutes, and 25 seconds
700 2015-12-14T16:40:07 <jl2012> a bad luck day
701 2015-12-14T16:40:51 <sipa> if itbhappens every 11 hours, it's hard it a bad luck day when it happens :)
702 2015-12-14T16:44:43 <btcdrak> 43 mins, glah. why amd I staring at this >.>
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706 2015-12-14T16:48:36 * sipa mentions the memorylessness of the poisson distribution
707 2015-12-14T16:49:02 <instagibbs> sipa, a watched poisson distribution never forgets
708 2015-12-14T16:49:11 <instagibbs> maybe mixing my metaphors here
709 2015-12-14T16:49:30 <harding> Two v4 blocks in a row.
710 2015-12-14T16:50:00 <btcdrak> if someone generates a v3 block now I will scream
711 2015-12-14T16:50:33 <jl2012> btcdrak: I will wish him keep mining v3 after the fork
712 2015-12-14T16:50:49 <jl2012> 6 left
713 2015-12-14T16:50:51 <btcdrak> jl2012: bwahahaha
714 2015-12-14T16:51:55 <jonasschnelli> 1 left? not?
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716 2015-12-14T16:52:34 <jonasschnelli> 1 left? not?
717 2015-12-14T16:52:42 <jonasschnelli> (oops, wrong window)
718 2015-12-14T16:53:04 <harding> jonasschnelli: we're at 949/950, but the next 6 blocks all have to be v4 before a v3 block drops off the tail end of the window.
719 2015-12-14T16:53:29 <btcdrak> three I think
720 2015-12-14T16:53:44 <jonasschnelli> Okay. I see.
721 2015-12-14T16:54:03 <jl2012> btcdrak: bitcoinity's chart is wrong
722 2015-12-14T16:54:05 <btcdrak> watch 'bitcoin-cli getblockchaininfo | tail && bitcoin-cli getinfo'
723 2015-12-14T16:54:08 * jonasschnelli can't wait to spend his locked P2SH test tx... :)
724 2015-12-14T16:54:24 <petertodd> jonasschnelli: when does it unlock?
725 2015-12-14T16:54:27 <btcdrak> what's the txid?
726 2015-12-14T16:54:36 <jonasschnelli> haha... 2015-12-31... :) haha
727 2015-12-14T16:54:43 <btcdrak> hey petertodd, you came here for the blockparty!
728 2015-12-14T16:54:50 <jonasschnelli> but i also have one with a locktime in past.
729 2015-12-14T16:55:26 <jl2012> 5
730 2015-12-14T16:56:17 <petertodd> btcdrak: lol, not on purpose :)
731 2015-12-14T16:56:27 <petertodd> btcdrak: just happened to wake up early enough
732 2015-12-14T16:57:10 <jl2012> petertodd: actually, isn't it better to apply the new rules only to UTXO created after the softfork?
733 2015-12-14T16:57:40 <petertodd> jl2012: doing that would be really complex - much easier not too try to do stuff like that
734 2015-12-14T16:58:25 <btcdrak> petertodd: when you get time please can you look at 7184 as a replacement candidate for 6312
735 2015-12-14T16:58:53 <petertodd> btcdrak: sure
736 2015-12-14T16:59:06 <petertodd> btcdrak: though I'm supposed to be on vacation with family for the next week or two :)
737 2015-12-14T16:59:21 <btcdrak> petertodd: the last IRC meeting explains it http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2015/bitcoin-dev.2015-12-10-19.01.log.html
738 2015-12-14T16:59:33 <btcdrak> well, if you have time cool :))
739 2015-12-14T16:59:40 <petertodd> btcdrak: thanks
740 2015-12-14T17:00:48 <petertodd> jl2012: bitcoinity is wrong?
741 2015-12-14T17:01:25 <jl2012> there are several bugs on this page https://data.bitcoinity.org/bitcoin/block_version/5y?c=block_version&r=week&t=a
742 2015-12-14T17:02:02 <btcdrak> the punchcard looks OK though?!
743 2015-12-14T17:03:52 <jl2012> btcdrak: actually not. Put you mouse over the blocks on the leftmost column and you will see the numbers do not add up
744 2015-12-14T17:04:37 <instagibbs> maybe mixing my metaphors here
745 2015-12-14T17:04:44 <instagibbs> err, wrong window, thanks history
746 2015-12-14T17:04:56 <jl2012> 4
747 2015-12-14T17:05:33 <btcdrak> it's amazing to see how much lag there is between different nodes receiving the same block.
748 2015-12-14T17:05:35 <petertodd> incidentally, it'd be good if people took a final look at https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki before we finalize it
749 2015-12-14T17:05:47 <petertodd> I'm having my mom check if for spelling/grammar :)
750 2015-12-14T17:06:56 <btcdrak> that makes your mom a contributor to Bitcoin!
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753 2015-12-14T17:43:22 <arioBarzan_> question: in BIP65
754 2015-12-14T17:43:31 <arioBarzan_> "nLockTime field in transactions themselves is uint32 which only becomes meaningless after the year 2106"
755 2015-12-14T17:43:42 <arioBarzan_> talks about lock-by-blocktime?
756 2015-12-14T17:43:51 <arioBarzan_> or lock-by-blockheight?
757 2015-12-14T17:43:57 <Quent> and in fact can be considered to act in such a way as to amount to outright theft as all who invested in bitcoin did so because of Satoshi's passionate defence of the system and his analytical and logical arguments that it can scale
758 2015-12-14T17:43:58 <afk11> arioBarzan_: You can do block-height, or timestamp
759 2015-12-14T17:44:14 <jl2012> arioBarzan_: the 2106 is blocktime
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761 2015-12-14T17:45:57 <Quent> no one considered gmax's opinion that bitcoin can not scale when the decided to invest, so what grants gmax the right to hold out and impose his will? If he thinks bitcoin can not scale then he is welcomed to forkoff if he is truly acting in principled and legitimate manners, rather than hijack Satoshi's coin
762 2015-12-14T17:45:58 <jl2012> with block height it's enough for 9500 years
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764 2015-12-14T17:46:33 <Quent> so even if gmax "wins", his victory would be phyric, for he has no leg to stand on...
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766 2015-12-14T17:48:14 <jl2012> but a hardfork is needed anyway for the year 2106 overflow
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768 2015-12-14T17:49:52 <btcdrak> Quent: great conversation, but it's for #bitcoin. This channel is for protocol discussion.
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770 2015-12-14T17:56:37 <Quent> yeah, sorry, I appologise, I was just responding to that guy calling an entire ppls asshats
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772 2015-12-14T17:57:10 <Quent> not sure why he didn't get a telling off for that sort of language
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774 2015-12-14T17:58:02 <btcdrak> I forgot to tag him
775 2015-12-14T17:58:15 <btcdrak> ploopkazoo: please take it to #bitcoin also
776 2015-12-14T17:59:03 <btcdrak> Quant: but it's not a "telling off". The conversation is fine, just here would be off-topic. #bitcoin is for general discussions
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878 2015-12-14T19:09:22 <StephenM347> Looking at https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7022. Why is tx priority being gotten rid of? I always thought that was a good way of doing it. What will it be replaced with?
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880 2015-12-14T19:12:25 <sdaftuar> StephenM347: There was an email thread about this on bitcoin-dev last month: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-November/011713.html
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883 2015-12-14T19:12:58 <StephenM347> sdaftuar: I'll give it a read, thanks
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885 2015-12-14T19:13:13 <see_not> Soo a dreaded "Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues."
886 2015-12-14T19:13:27 <see_not> Now my wallet is stuck on a certain block, what do
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889 2015-12-14T19:14:56 <nwilcox_> Why are there no 0.11.2 release notes in the docs/release-notes directory?
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893 2015-12-14T19:15:22 <nwilcox> Also, where can I read about the release process / schedule?
894 2015-12-14T19:15:36 <btcdrak> nwilcox_: you mean this? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.11/doc/release-notes.md
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898 2015-12-14T19:16:11 <btcdrak> nwilcox_: this is the release process: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/release-process.md
899 2015-12-14T19:16:19 <sipa> nwilcox: because 0.11 is a separate branch from master... at some point the notes from other branches usually get eh... "forwardported"
900 2015-12-14T19:16:49 <nwilcox> btcdrak: Thanks!
901 2015-12-14T19:17:12 <nwilcox> So is release-notes.md for the latest release, and all older ones appear in the release-notes directory?
902 2015-12-14T19:17:26 <sipa> within each branch, yes
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904 2015-12-14T19:17:47 <nwilcox> sipa: I also looked at the release-notes directory within v0.11.2 tag.
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906 2015-12-14T19:17:48 <nwilcox> Ok.
907 2015-12-14T19:17:49 <btcdrak> nwilcox: the release process is once tagged, developers (or anyone) fires up their gitian builders and signs the output. If enough agree, the tag becomes the release.
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911 2015-12-14T19:21:02 <btcdrak> nwilcox: As for schedule, wumpus posts these to the ML. I believe it was 0.12 feature freeze ~1-Dec, RC phase begins Jan 6th. I think the aim is for a major release every 6 months or so. maintenance releases come as necessary.
912 2015-12-14T19:21:34 <nwilcox> Gotcha.
913 2015-12-14T19:21:58 <nwilcox> Do PRs need to update ./doc/release-notes.md in-band, or is that document updated later?
914 2015-12-14T19:22:27 <nwilcox> (Can I look at 0.12 version of release-notes.md to have a fairly good idea of what that release entails?)
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918 2015-12-14T19:22:59 <btcdrak> nwilcox: you should probably read this also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
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920 2015-12-14T19:23:16 <btcdrak> nwilcox: everything is done by PR.
921 2015-12-14T19:23:16 <nwilcox> ok.
922 2015-12-14T19:23:24 <sipa> nwilcox: not everything is included... as pre release the release-notes.md document is really only updated by individual PRs when the author remembers that writing something about it may be useful
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941 2015-12-14T19:37:32 <btcdrak> sipa: the softfork seems to have gone well so far... fingers crossed
942 2015-12-14T19:38:02 <sipa> yay
943 2015-12-14T19:38:14 <btcdrak> not seeing any forks...
944 2015-12-14T19:38:44 <btcdrak> but then again, noone has produced a v3 block yet.
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952 2015-12-14T19:47:50 <Quent> there seem to be some complaints of nodes malfunctioning
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966 2015-12-14T19:57:42 <see_not> Is pieter wuille here?
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968 2015-12-14T19:58:26 <sipa> see_not: yes
969 2015-12-14T19:58:59 <see_not> Great! you're the one who saved me multiple times
970 2015-12-14T19:59:41 <see_not> I found your answer on stackoverflow regarding copying over the contents of .bitcoin folder from one machine to another
971 2015-12-14T20:00:16 <see_not> My nodes run 0.95 and one of them reports Warning: The network does not appear to fully agree! Some miners appear to be experiencing issues.
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973 2015-12-14T20:00:31 <see_not> and is stuck on block 388366
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975 2015-12-14T20:01:00 <see_not> Will copying over the last few files from a machine work? I tried just deleting last blockxx.dat but asked me for a reindex
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978 2015-12-14T20:01:29 <gmaxwell> 0.95 is not a bitcoin core version number.
979 2015-12-14T20:01:37 <see_not> 90500
980 2015-12-14T20:01:42 <sipa> 0.9.5 is pretty old
981 2015-12-14T20:01:52 <gmaxwell> Deleting or copying just single files is like giving your node a lobotomy. It will not make it healthy.
982 2015-12-14T20:02:07 <see_not> I know that but upgrading will require a few days...
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984 2015-12-14T20:02:47 <sipa> you can copy the full chainstate, or the full blocks/ contents
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988 2015-12-14T20:03:06 <sipa> the blocks/ contents cannot be older than the chainstate/ contents
989 2015-12-14T20:03:15 <sipa> (as the chainstate refers to blocks, but not the other way around)
990 2015-12-14T20:03:27 <see_not> I have tens of full nodes spread all over the world some with bad connections
991 2015-12-14T20:03:44 <sipa> i very strongly suggest you to upgrade to at least 0.10
992 2015-12-14T20:04:01 <see_not> Ah I see, well chainstate has about 1.2gb and I thought if copying just that + the latest few blk files would help
993 2015-12-14T20:04:12 <sipa> no
994 2015-12-14T20:04:18 <sipa> you need to copy the entire contents
995 2015-12-14T20:04:25 <gmaxwell> upgrading wouldn't have taken any time-- unless you're referring to local modifications-- if you'd done it while the system weren't corrupted, but in any case you can upgrade and reindex.
996 2015-12-14T20:04:37 <sipa> (especially the block/index/ contents must be up to date)
997 2015-12-14T20:04:46 <see_not> damn might as well upgrade
998 2015-12-14T20:05:23 <gmaxwell> there are numerious security problems with 0.9.5 (not to mention performance)
999 2015-12-14T20:05:24 <see_not> Thanks for the help, I'll consider updating. Maybe its the fact that I run them with txindex too
1000 2015-12-14T20:05:27 <sipa> if you're not using the nodes for wallets or mining, you may want to consider trying the 0.12 branch, which is many times faster
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1002 2015-12-14T20:05:41 <sipa> there is no 0.12 release though, so at your own risk
1003 2015-12-14T20:05:43 <gmaxwell> Why are yourunning tens of nodes, in any case?
1004 2015-12-14T20:06:18 <see_not> I have 0.12 in testing already on one of my local machines, I could see memory usage is definitely great compared to current
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1006 2015-12-14T20:06:51 <sipa> cool; feel free to report any issues
1007 2015-12-14T20:07:02 <see_not> But either way it will be just a binary update when release is available unlike now where a reindex is a must...
1008 2015-12-14T20:07:07 <see_not> Will do if I notice any :)
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1010 2015-12-14T20:07:45 <sipa> you can't downgrade from 0.10 back to 0.9, or from 0.11 to 0.10 if you enable pruning
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1013 2015-12-14T20:07:53 <sipa> but forward upgrading shouldn't require a reindex
1014 2015-12-14T20:08:11 <gmaxwell> though he needs a reindex now because his state is now corrupt.
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1016 2015-12-14T20:08:25 <sipa> indeed
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1018 2015-12-14T20:09:01 <gmaxwell> I suggest just updating to 0.11.2 (or 0.12-pre as sipa suggests, if you aren't depending on these nodes); and then do your reindex.
1019 2015-12-14T20:09:18 <gmaxwell> 0.12 branch will reindex like infinity fold faster too. :)
1020 2015-12-14T20:10:50 <see_not> Sounds great, I'll upgrade this one where reindex is necessary and wait for a 0.12 release for the rest, I kinda need them operational
1021 2015-12-14T20:11:19 <Quent> what you using them for see_not ?
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1024 2015-12-14T20:12:13 <gmaxwell> if you want to keep them operational you really should upgrade them. As sipa said, no reindex is required.
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1027 2015-12-14T20:13:06 <Quent> sounds like he is trying to minimise risk, i.e. if one upgrade has a bug etc the other node works, unless I'm mistaken
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1085 2015-12-14T20:57:17 <rusty> kanzure, btcdrak: well, it seems the gentle approach to moderation has failed. Does someone else want to moderate jl2012's rant?
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1092 2015-12-14T21:00:16 <rusty> jl2012: around?
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1099 2015-12-14T21:06:17 <kanzure> rusty: we should try to bribe and entice jl2012 into contributing more often
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1101 2015-12-14T21:07:30 <see_not> sipa and gmaxwell : Thank you for all your help tonight & contribution in general to this project, you're great people for still being here and helping out when you could be making tons of $ on consulting etc.
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1103 2015-12-14T21:07:39 <rusty> kanzure: oh, I loved his proposal. But I hate that the discussion since has been almost 100% "but you can't steal people's money" followed by <re-explanation of what proposal is>. There are two more in the queue, from xor.
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1109 2015-12-14T21:10:19 <gmaxwell> rusty: then why are you blaming jl2012, who has been one of the communities longest sources of interesting thoughts? rather than the walls of pseudonyms that have afaict done nothing and just don't understand the idea?
1110 2015-12-14T21:11:52 <kanzure> rusty says one of the jl2012 emails was low-signal or a rehash or something. this might even be true, but confuses issue on moderation policy (unset the moderation bit, or not?), and unfortunately has made jl2012 unfond of the mailing list now (there's a pending email that is :-/).
1111 2015-12-14T21:12:20 <kanzure> mostly this is my mistake for not unsetting the moderation bit sooner..... as per policy.
1112 2015-12-14T21:12:24 <rusty> gmaxwell: I'm sorry if you read that from what I wrote? I'm re-reading it now, I thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't criticising him.
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1116 2015-12-14T21:13:26 <AdrianG> who is jl2012
1117 2015-12-14T21:13:42 <sipa> jl2012: who are you?
1118 2015-12-14T21:13:44 <kanzure> that is irrelevant
1119 2015-12-14T21:13:50 <kanzure> i'm sure he's wonderful, whoever he is :-)
1120 2015-12-14T21:13:58 <sipa> AdrianG: might as well ask the guy himself :)
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1125 2015-12-14T21:20:43 <rusty> kanzure: Your characterization was a bit unfair. I approved everything, and sent the various participants of the thread a direct email, pointing out that the thread was "starting to go in circles". Making forward progress was jgarzik's main criterion for moderation.
1126 2015-12-14T21:21:35 <kanzure> ah, didn't know you had approved everything, my mistake.
1127 2015-12-14T21:21:47 <kanzure> sorta confused about jl2012's pending email then
1128 2015-12-14T21:22:29 <rusty> kanzure: hey, it's 7am here, I was surprised it hadn't already been dealt with. When I get up and there are mails in the mod queue it usually means they're contentious.
1129 2015-12-14T21:23:00 <kanzure> no it means i'm punting
1130 2015-12-14T21:23:13 <rusty> kanzure: FYI, I'm going to politely bounce xor's emails, and point him to the previous clarification. Otherwise gmaxwell and jl2012 will feel obligated to respond (again).
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1138 2015-12-14T21:30:19 <rusty> kanzure: same thing. I've left jl2012's mail in the queue for now: clearly I've mishandled this, and I'd like the opportunity to contain the damage :(
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