1 2015-12-20T00:00:13 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
2 2015-12-20T00:04:53 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
3 2015-12-20T00:11:50 *** t7 has quit IRC
4 2015-12-20T00:13:00 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
5 2015-12-20T00:13:01 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
6 2015-12-20T00:17:33 *** justice_ has quit IRC
7 2015-12-20T00:19:54 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
8 2015-12-20T00:24:46 *** Raziel has quit IRC
9 2015-12-20T00:29:09 *** won9 has quit IRC
10 2015-12-20T00:30:04 *** won9 has joined #bitcoin-dev
11 2015-12-20T00:31:30 *** gavinandresen has quit IRC
12 2015-12-20T00:33:45 *** kadoban has joined #bitcoin-dev
13 2015-12-20T00:37:03 *** Arnavion has quit IRC
14 2015-12-20T00:37:09 *** AtashiCon has quit IRC
15 2015-12-20T00:37:35 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
16 2015-12-20T00:47:57 *** memymo has quit IRC
17 2015-12-20T00:52:08 *** brooss has quit IRC
18 2015-12-20T00:53:05 *** brooss has joined #bitcoin-dev
19 2015-12-20T00:54:42 *** arowser has quit IRC
20 2015-12-20T00:55:13 *** arowser has joined #bitcoin-dev
21 2015-12-20T00:58:12 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
22 2015-12-20T01:03:36 *** deego has quit IRC
23 2015-12-20T01:03:44 *** Arnavion has joined #bitcoin-dev
24 2015-12-20T01:06:53 *** Burrito has quit IRC
25 2015-12-20T01:07:43 *** AtashiCon has joined #bitcoin-dev
26 2015-12-20T01:14:03 *** blackjid has quit IRC
27 2015-12-20T01:14:23 *** iv3c has quit IRC
28 2015-12-20T01:14:56 *** blackjid has joined #bitcoin-dev
29 2015-12-20T01:15:20 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
30 2015-12-20T01:15:27 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
31 2015-12-20T01:20:31 *** h3xc0d3r has joined #bitcoin-dev
32 2015-12-20T01:20:34 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
33 2015-12-20T01:22:02 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
34 2015-12-20T01:27:16 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
35 2015-12-20T01:28:33 *** tachys has joined #bitcoin-dev
36 2015-12-20T01:30:02 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
37 2015-12-20T01:30:50 *** one_zero has joined #bitcoin-dev
38 2015-12-20T01:35:24 *** tachys has quit IRC
39 2015-12-20T01:48:24 *** develCuy has left #bitcoin-dev
40 2015-12-20T01:49:15 *** CheckDavid has quit IRC
41 2015-12-20T01:50:00 *** tjader has quit IRC
42 2015-12-20T01:50:42 *** sanada` has quit IRC
43 2015-12-20T01:54:46 *** tjader has joined #bitcoin-dev
44 2015-12-20T01:55:37 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
45 2015-12-20T01:59:43 *** memymo has quit IRC
46 2015-12-20T02:00:06 *** Raziel has joined #bitcoin-dev
47 2015-12-20T02:00:15 *** koad has quit IRC
48 2015-12-20T02:01:33 *** RazielZ has joined #bitcoin-dev
49 2015-12-20T02:03:56 *** GGuyZ has quit IRC
50 2015-12-20T02:05:06 *** Raziel has quit IRC
51 2015-12-20T02:05:23 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
52 2015-12-20T02:07:06 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
53 2015-12-20T02:07:20 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
54 2015-12-20T02:12:14 *** brooss has quit IRC
55 2015-12-20T02:14:32 *** Ylbam has quit IRC
56 2015-12-20T02:16:58 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
57 2015-12-20T02:17:55 *** blkdb has quit IRC
58 2015-12-20T02:22:29 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
59 2015-12-20T02:24:49 *** belcher has quit IRC
60 2015-12-20T02:24:59 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-dev
61 2015-12-20T02:25:00 *** YoY has joined #bitcoin-dev
62 2015-12-20T02:26:04 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
63 2015-12-20T02:26:32 *** btcdrak has quit IRC
64 2015-12-20T02:28:01 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
65 2015-12-20T02:28:10 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
66 2015-12-20T02:31:24 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
67 2015-12-20T02:40:26 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
68 2015-12-20T02:40:43 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
69 2015-12-20T02:41:27 *** gnnr has quit IRC
70 2015-12-20T02:44:42 *** RazielZ has quit IRC
71 2015-12-20T02:45:17 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
72 2015-12-20T02:45:18 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
73 2015-12-20T02:46:43 *** tachys has joined #bitcoin-dev
74 2015-12-20T02:47:44 *** tachys has joined #bitcoin-dev
75 2015-12-20T02:47:49 *** petrkr has quit IRC
76 2015-12-20T02:48:16 *** tachys has quit IRC
77 2015-12-20T02:50:32 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
78 2015-12-20T02:52:18 *** tachys has joined #bitcoin-dev
79 2015-12-20T02:53:35 *** molz has quit IRC
80 2015-12-20T02:54:41 *** xss has quit IRC
81 2015-12-20T02:55:55 *** c0rw|zZz has quit IRC
82 2015-12-20T02:57:00 *** tachys has quit IRC
83 2015-12-20T03:00:57 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
84 2015-12-20T03:01:33 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
85 2015-12-20T03:04:04 *** moli has joined #bitcoin-dev
86 2015-12-20T03:05:50 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
87 2015-12-20T03:17:06 *** dermoth_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
88 2015-12-20T03:17:47 *** dermoth has quit IRC
89 2015-12-20T03:29:57 *** maaku has joined #bitcoin-dev
90 2015-12-20T03:32:31 <maaku> "Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system" is a plan I can fully support. It is my understanding that a number of other bitcoin core contributors have privately also concured with this plan as a short- to medium-term proposal.
91 2015-12-20T03:32:32 <maaku> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html
92 2015-12-20T03:33:16 <maaku> Are there others besides me who would like to publicly sign on to this proposal so we can stop bikeshedding, start implementing, and move forward?
93 2015-12-20T03:34:56 <harding> I'm not a developer, but I'm happy to fully support that plan with documentation and anything else I can do to help.
94 2015-12-20T03:36:19 *** Giszmo has quit IRC
95 2015-12-20T03:36:23 <sipa> maaku: ack
96 2015-12-20T03:39:08 *** Delta_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
97 2015-12-20T03:43:09 *** Subo1977 has quit IRC
98 2015-12-20T03:46:59 <aj> maaku: (it would be good to have some sort of timeline on the "Finally--at some point the capacity increases from the above may not be enough" that's more than just "at some point")
99 2015-12-20T03:47:44 <aj> maaku: (or, if not a timeline, some sort of metrics that could indicate when "some point" is approaching and action needs to be taken)
100 2015-12-20T03:48:16 <maaku> aj: "at some point" follows deployment of some or all of the above technologies (segwit, IBLT, weak blocks, payment channels, etc.)
101 2015-12-20T03:48:44 <aj> maaku: sure. but does it follow immediately? in a year? in five years?
102 2015-12-20T03:48:47 <maaku> aj: the point very much is we don't know now when the appropriate time would be or what the approapriate change would be
103 2015-12-20T03:49:00 <maaku> but we have a plan to move forward in the near term
104 2015-12-20T03:49:09 <maaku> we are not creating five year or 10 year plans here
105 2015-12-20T03:50:12 <aj> maaku: personally (and i don't think my vote counts for anything), i'm totally on board for proceeding with everything else (iblt, segwit, etc) immediately, but i think more clarity is needed on when an increase to ~2MB is warranted as well
106 2015-12-20T03:51:03 *** belcher has quit IRC
107 2015-12-20T03:51:05 *** NLNico has joined #bitcoin-dev
108 2015-12-20T03:51:06 <aj> maaku: "we are not creating 5/10 year plans" -- so does that mean "at some point" is definitely less than five years away?
109 2015-12-20T03:53:09 <maaku> aj: who knows? the point is we don't have clarity on that until we get some preliminary stuff done
110 2015-12-20T03:53:40 *** tjader has quit IRC
111 2015-12-20T03:54:12 <maaku> so let's stop arguing in circles about stuff that none of us have any really solid idea about, and move forward on what we know needs to get done, and what we know will provide a little bit more capacity
112 2015-12-20T03:55:52 *** phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-dev
113 2015-12-20T03:56:34 <aj> maaku: i don't get "who knows?" and "none of us have any solid idea about" -- surely this stuff should be known by now, or at least it should be possible to say exactly what questions need to be answered to come up with a conclusion (which would let you provide metrics now)...
114 2015-12-20T03:57:20 <aj> maaku: not entirely relatedly, you wrote "the quadratic scaling costs in large transaction validation" -- is that limited to hashing for signatures, or are there other ways to get quadratic scaling that you know of?
115 2015-12-20T03:57:55 *** h3xc0d3r has quit IRC
116 2015-12-20T03:58:11 <maaku> aj: do we have a better idea than six months ago? yes. but do we have sufficient information to say "in 12 months we will begin to deploy 2/4/8; or in six months we will reopen the topic for discussion" or whatever
117 2015-12-20T03:58:41 <maaku> aj: you can also make quadratic just ECDSA validation by spending large scriptPubKeys
118 2015-12-20T03:59:14 <sipa> we could fix the quadratic hashing inside witness scriots
119 2015-12-20T03:59:24 <sipa> by changing how signature hashing works inside
120 2015-12-20T03:59:39 <aj> maaku: that's quadratic in the data being passed to the sig hash function still isn't it?
121 2015-12-20T03:59:41 <maaku> sipa: yes, we could also just measure and limit it via jonas' metric
122 2015-12-20T03:59:51 <sipa> yes indeed
123 2015-12-20T03:59:57 *** tjader has joined #bitcoin-dev
124 2015-12-20T04:00:04 <sipa> though i prefer fixing quadratic behaviour that's totally unnecessary
125 2015-12-20T04:00:28 <maaku> sipa: agreed but that changes CHECKSIG's behavior
126 2015-12-20T04:00:34 <maaku> it's a soft-fork, yes, but a more invasive one
127 2015-12-20T04:00:57 <maaku> not nack'ing, just pointing out it is complicating
128 2015-12-20T04:01:05 <sipa> i think it's pretty minor compared to segwit
129 2015-12-20T04:02:04 <sipa> we could also switch to pubkey recovery, making pay to pubkey hash much smaller on chain
130 2015-12-20T04:02:09 <sipa> :)
131 2015-12-20T04:02:09 <maaku> by invasive i mean to the ecosystem .. it's something we'd have to run by hardware wallets etc. and make sure this part of the signing code is upgradeable
132 2015-12-20T04:02:20 <sipa> agree
133 2015-12-20T04:02:43 <maaku> and if the answer came back that yes, it's manageable, i'd totally support it
134 2015-12-20T04:02:46 <sipa> and with a version number in the scriots such things are relatively easy to add later anyway
135 2015-12-20T04:03:01 <maaku> also, make CHECKSIG == CHECKSIGVERIFY a la elements
136 2015-12-20T04:03:02 <sipa> it would just make the scaling story better immediately
137 2015-12-20T04:03:14 *** antizionist__ has quit IRC
138 2015-12-20T04:03:15 <maaku> right
139 2015-12-20T04:03:20 <sipa> maaku: not useful for ecdsa, as it doesn't support batch verifivation anyway
140 2015-12-20T04:03:33 <maaku> ah right
141 2015-12-20T04:03:35 <sipa> unless we change the signature format
142 2015-12-20T04:03:48 <sipa> which, incidentally, would also increase scale :p
143 2015-12-20T04:04:06 <maaku> damnit let's just switch to Schnorr! ;)
144 2015-12-20T04:04:30 <aj> let's git segwit in first? :)
145 2015-12-20T04:04:35 <aj> git? get, geez...
146 2015-12-20T04:04:41 <sipa> it's already in git!
147 2015-12-20T04:04:43 <sipa> hahahaha
148 2015-12-20T04:04:46 <sipa> evil laughter
149 2015-12-20T04:04:52 <sipa> i need sleep
150 2015-12-20T04:04:56 *** won9 has quit IRC
151 2015-12-20T04:08:55 <harding> https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165
152 2015-12-20T04:09:10 *** circuspeanut has joined #bitcoin-dev
153 2015-12-20T04:18:29 <maaku> but yeah this shows that as a matter of bikeshed avoidance segwit script v0 should be minimally different from bitcoin script, if changed at all
154 2015-12-20T04:23:16 *** JackH has quit IRC
155 2015-12-20T04:23:34 *** afk11 has quit IRC
156 2015-12-20T04:26:11 *** mrkent has joined #bitcoin-dev
157 2015-12-20T04:33:45 *** kadoban has quit IRC
158 2015-12-20T04:39:10 <jl2012> CodeShark and I are working on a segwit BIP. Please feel free to comment: https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/segwit/bip-segwit.mediawiki
159 2015-12-20T04:42:27 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
160 2015-12-20T04:42:32 *** Raziel has joined #bitcoin-dev
161 2015-12-20T04:45:01 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
162 2015-12-20T05:00:13 *** dermoth_ has quit IRC
163 2015-12-20T05:00:45 *** TheSeven has quit IRC
164 2015-12-20T05:00:59 *** dermoth_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
165 2015-12-20T05:01:29 *** dermoth_ is now known as dermoth
166 2015-12-20T05:02:10 *** TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-dev
167 2015-12-20T05:09:01 <maaku> i assume you are coordinating with sipa?
168 2015-12-20T05:12:27 *** raedah has quit IRC
169 2015-12-20T05:15:49 <sipa> i will :)
170 2015-12-20T05:18:03 *** mrkent has quit IRC
171 2015-12-20T05:21:28 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
172 2015-12-20T05:24:05 *** tjader has quit IRC
173 2015-12-20T05:25:53 *** iv3c has quit IRC
174 2015-12-20T05:29:40 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
175 2015-12-20T05:30:06 *** tjader has joined #bitcoin-dev
176 2015-12-20T05:34:02 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
177 2015-12-20T05:39:15 *** CheckDavid has quit IRC
178 2015-12-20T05:44:41 <jl2012> I suggest we could settle with the witness program format now and define and new address type like BIP13, so wallets may start working on it
179 2015-12-20T05:47:45 <sipa> jl2012: agree
180 2015-12-20T05:48:06 <sipa> i think we do need to add the fraud proof data, though
181 2015-12-20T05:48:20 <sipa> it can be added later, but at the cost of a new commitment
182 2015-12-20T05:53:53 *** raedah has quit IRC
183 2015-12-20T05:53:56 <maaku> fraud proof data should definately be incorproated into segwit
184 2015-12-20T05:54:10 <maaku> jl2012: please remove the block size limit section from the bip
185 2015-12-20T05:54:48 *** Logicwax has quit IRC
186 2015-12-20T05:59:37 *** Logicwax has joined #bitcoin-dev
187 2015-12-20T06:01:32 *** digitalmagus8 has quit IRC
188 2015-12-20T06:03:55 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
189 2015-12-20T06:07:19 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
190 2015-12-20T06:09:38 <jl2012> maaku: ok, but that will require another BIP
191 2015-12-20T06:10:57 <jl2012> For fraud proof, ok if it does not delay the deployment
192 2015-12-20T06:12:25 <jl2012> The commitment structure allows any number of new commitments with one hash
193 2015-12-20T06:15:09 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
194 2015-12-20T06:15:41 *** sparetire_ has quit IRC
195 2015-12-20T06:16:00 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
196 2015-12-20T06:24:04 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
197 2015-12-20T06:31:36 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
198 2015-12-20T06:38:49 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
199 2015-12-20T06:43:14 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
200 2015-12-20T06:52:36 *** arioBarzan has joined #bitcoin-dev
201 2015-12-20T06:53:35 *** JackH has quit IRC
202 2015-12-20T06:53:55 *** tjader has quit IRC
203 2015-12-20T06:59:14 *** tjader has joined #bitcoin-dev
204 2015-12-20T06:59:41 <arioBarzan> one issue regarding wiki for BIP-0065. "Trustless Payments for Publishing Data" is insecure guys.
205 2015-12-20T07:01:38 *** desantis has joined #bitcoin-dev
206 2015-12-20T07:02:22 *** Beef has quit IRC
207 2015-12-20T07:02:45 *** adam3us has joined #bitcoin-dev
208 2015-12-20T07:03:03 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
209 2015-12-20T07:03:07 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
210 2015-12-20T07:04:40 *** Beef has joined #bitcoin-dev
211 2015-12-20T07:05:09 <arioBarzan> it says spending reveals encryption keys to the data. It's right that for spending the coins, publisher has to reveal something such that ripemd160(sha256("that-thing")) should equals a pre-defined data stored in scriptPubKey
212 2015-12-20T07:05:27 *** Raccoon is now known as WaywardSon
213 2015-12-20T07:06:32 <arioBarzan> but there is no guaranty for buyer to be able to decrypt the information, using "that-thing"
214 2015-12-20T07:07:36 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
215 2015-12-20T07:08:55 <arioBarzan> publisher could encrypt the information with a "secret-key" and then put ripemd160(sha256("irrelevant-key")) in scriptPubKey
216 2015-12-20T07:09:42 <arioBarzan> am I wrong petertodd ?
217 2015-12-20T07:10:28 <midnightmagic> arioBarzan: i think that's partly why it's in chunks. if the first chunk doesn't decrypt anything, then nobody's paying for the rest.
218 2015-12-20T07:13:16 <midnightmagic> paypub can be seen in its slightly post-conceptual stage here: https://github.com/unsystem/paypub
219 2015-12-20T07:14:43 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
220 2015-12-20T07:16:29 <arioBarzan> midnightmagic: thanks. it would be nice if wiki also had relevant reference though.
221 2015-12-20T07:18:13 <midnightmagic> ehh. it's peter. he assumes people know more than they do. the nature of that paragraph isn't to highlight paypub, but I'm assuming he's giving people enough to find out on their own by using the name.
222 2015-12-20T07:23:00 <arioBarzan> I have been playing with CLTV a little and was fun. anything important has happened since its enforcement on main-chain, like chain forks, etc. ?
223 2015-12-20T07:25:27 <aj> arioBarzan: you could use a SNARK to prove the hash corresponds to the private key for a given public key :) but otherwise you're right
224 2015-12-20T07:32:50 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
225 2015-12-20T07:34:14 *** won9 has joined #bitcoin-dev
226 2015-12-20T07:46:28 *** arioBarzan has quit IRC
227 2015-12-20T07:47:03 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
228 2015-12-20T07:49:54 *** memymo has quit IRC
229 2015-12-20T07:56:29 *** desantis has quit IRC
230 2015-12-20T07:59:47 *** tjader has quit IRC
231 2015-12-20T08:04:25 *** cheetah2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
232 2015-12-20T08:07:21 *** raedah has quit IRC
233 2015-12-20T08:16:55 *** rnvk has quit IRC
234 2015-12-20T08:23:33 *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
235 2015-12-20T08:25:10 *** IrishGringo has quit IRC
236 2015-12-20T08:30:01 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
237 2015-12-20T08:31:41 *** btcdrak has joined #bitcoin-dev
238 2015-12-20T08:36:19 *** Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-dev
239 2015-12-20T08:40:40 *** iv3c has quit IRC
240 2015-12-20T08:41:05 <maaku> jl2012: "The commitment structure allows any number of new commitments with one hash" <--- yes but we may want to change the structure of that hash tree, and it'd be better to get that in first
241 2015-12-20T08:42:26 *** Cory has quit IRC
242 2015-12-20T08:42:35 <maaku> e.g. putting commitments in as a merkle mountain rage
243 2015-12-20T08:51:54 *** Cory has joined #bitcoin-dev
244 2015-12-20T08:53:59 *** aschildbach has joined #bitcoin-dev
245 2015-12-20T08:56:28 <sipa> maaku: how does that help?
246 2015-12-20T08:57:03 <maaku> sipa: minimizing proof size for future commitments, while favoring earlier commitments
247 2015-12-20T08:57:32 <sipa> the commitment structure i implemented is optimal in size for up to ~20 commitments
248 2015-12-20T08:57:44 <sipa> and very close to it afterwards
249 2015-12-20T08:59:23 *** c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-dev
250 2015-12-20T08:59:25 <maaku> sipa: you're doing a simple merkle tree. that's not optimal
251 2015-12-20T08:59:26 *** d_t has quit IRC
252 2015-12-20T08:59:43 <sipa> maaku: i don't understand
253 2015-12-20T08:59:49 <sipa> how is it not optimal?
254 2015-12-20T08:59:58 <sipa> what bytes can be saved?
255 2015-12-20T09:00:06 *** tarantillo_ has quit IRC
256 2015-12-20T09:00:06 <maaku> i think we are talking past each other. what structure are you talking about?
257 2015-12-20T09:00:23 *** tarantillo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
258 2015-12-20T09:00:24 <sipa> look at the code, there are comments about it even :)
259 2015-12-20T09:01:08 <sipa> it's similar to namecoin mm commitments, but using a non-broken scheme for determining locations in the tree
260 2015-12-20T09:03:08 *** cheetah2 has quit IRC
261 2015-12-20T09:03:22 <maaku> i know, i'm reading it. the depth of the merkle tree is constant, no?
262 2015-12-20T09:03:27 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
263 2015-12-20T09:03:28 <sipa> no
264 2015-12-20T09:03:35 *** sanada has joined #bitcoin-dev
265 2015-12-20T09:03:55 <sipa> it can be anything from 0 to 32
266 2015-12-20T09:04:20 <sipa> and the positions of commitments in it aren't constant either
267 2015-12-20T09:04:47 <maaku> sipa: but you can have an unbalanced tree of commitments?
268 2015-12-20T09:11:36 <jl2012> maaku, I think that's just a binary tree. And the merkle path to the actual commitment is sent as the witness of the coinbase tx
269 2015-12-20T09:13:16 <maaku> i see. ok i was misinterpreting the comment
270 2015-12-20T09:13:58 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
271 2015-12-20T09:21:04 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
272 2015-12-20T09:24:06 *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
273 2015-12-20T09:25:58 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
274 2015-12-20T09:29:40 *** fkhan_ has quit IRC
275 2015-12-20T09:31:46 *** Emzy has joined #bitcoin-dev
276 2015-12-20T09:34:47 *** gielbier has quit IRC
277 2015-12-20T09:35:30 *** digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
278 2015-12-20T09:35:46 *** digitalmagus has quit IRC
279 2015-12-20T09:38:43 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
280 2015-12-20T09:38:43 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
281 2015-12-20T09:42:21 *** fkhan_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
282 2015-12-20T09:42:56 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
283 2015-12-20T09:53:56 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
284 2015-12-20T09:56:48 *** metalcamp has joined #bitcoin-dev
285 2015-12-20T10:00:45 <jl2012> i'm going to write a BIP for the SW payment address. I'll do it like P2SH address: address version|witness program|checksum, where checksum is first 4 bytes of dSHA256(address version|witness program)
286 2015-12-20T10:01:15 <jl2012> the length of the address is variable, depends on the length of the witness program. Does it make sense?
287 2015-12-20T10:01:40 *** roconnor_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
288 2015-12-20T10:01:57 <jl2012> and what address prefix? W?
289 2015-12-20T10:04:08 *** roconnor has quit IRC
290 2015-12-20T10:06:05 <maaku> i know this is bikeshedding territory, but I would really like to use something other than base58 for these addresses
291 2015-12-20T10:10:29 <aschildbach> jl2012: If the address can be longer than current addresses, be aware addresses are used in QR codes.
292 2015-12-20T10:19:34 <jl2012> aschildbach, I think that could be at most double of current addresses
293 2015-12-20T10:21:26 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
294 2015-12-20T10:21:52 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
295 2015-12-20T10:23:04 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: SW works inside P2SH addresses
296 2015-12-20T10:23:12 <jl2012> maaku, no matter what scheme is used, it must encode the same amount of information......and won't be human memorable anyway
297 2015-12-20T10:23:31 <jl2012> Luke-Jr, I know, but that's very inefficient
298 2015-12-20T10:23:46 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: well, ideally addresses should be obsolete anyway
299 2015-12-20T10:23:47 <jl2012> it's there just for backward compatibility
300 2015-12-20T10:24:58 <jl2012> if we want to bootstrap the use of SW, it must be familiar to existing users
301 2015-12-20T10:26:15 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
302 2015-12-20T10:26:53 *** phantomcircuit has quit IRC
303 2015-12-20T10:27:51 <adam3us> jl2012 why is p2sh inefficient isnt that norm for non trivial scripts?
304 2015-12-20T10:28:34 *** jtoomim_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
305 2015-12-20T10:28:46 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
306 2015-12-20T10:29:02 <jl2012> adam3us: please read the examples at https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/segwit/bip-segwit.mediawiki
307 2015-12-20T10:30:44 *** phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-dev
308 2015-12-20T10:31:00 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: any new address format isn't going to be backward compatible..
309 2015-12-20T10:31:33 <adam3us> looking hmm
310 2015-12-20T10:32:15 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: of course, but so? And I believe this will be truly the last address format as SW is very flexible
311 2015-12-20T10:33:12 <aschildbach> jl2012: Double the length doesn't sound good for scannability. Addresses have never been about memorability.
312 2015-12-20T10:34:11 <Luke-Jr> (btw, that BIP draft probably isn't up to date, as it still reserves 32 bytes of the coinbase for the commitment)
313 2015-12-20T10:34:24 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
314 2015-12-20T10:34:48 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
315 2015-12-20T10:34:55 <jl2012> aschildbach: it is doubled just because SW allows 41 byte program. And there is no way to compress
316 2015-12-20T10:35:03 <maaku> jl2012: there are very severe problems with base58 with regard to variable lengths, lack of error correction, inability to phonetically read
317 2015-12-20T10:35:13 <maaku> it's a UX nightmare and never should have been used
318 2015-12-20T10:35:14 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: the commitment part is not finished
319 2015-12-20T10:35:51 *** jtoomim_ has quit IRC
320 2015-12-20T10:36:23 <Luke-Jr> the concept of a single-use token seems lost on users anyway
321 2015-12-20T10:36:27 <Luke-Jr> addresses just need to die
322 2015-12-20T10:37:01 <Luke-Jr> users were never generally familiar with them, so it makes no sense to claim we need it to be familiar
323 2015-12-20T10:37:38 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
324 2015-12-20T10:37:46 *** xss has quit IRC
325 2015-12-20T10:38:24 <jl2012> Luke-Jr every bitcoin users have the experience to use base58 address
326 2015-12-20T10:39:18 <jl2012> in the past 5 years, were there any better proposal AND actually got widely adopted?
327 2015-12-20T10:39:34 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: base58 is irrelevant to the address format, and it seems the majority of users *still* don't understand addresses
328 2015-12-20T10:39:47 <maaku> jl2012: we have a chance to deprecate such usage. infrastructure HAS to update to use SW, so this is an opportunity to make the adjustment to no-address bitcoin
329 2015-12-20T10:39:48 <Luke-Jr> jl2012: payment protocol is half widely adopted (sending to it)
330 2015-12-20T10:39:57 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
331 2015-12-20T10:40:47 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: I personnaly never used payment protocol
332 2015-12-20T10:41:13 <jl2012> and I'm not sure if any exchange is using it
333 2015-12-20T10:41:28 <jl2012> at least not those I'm familiar with
334 2015-12-20T10:42:40 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
335 2015-12-20T10:42:42 <jgarzik> jl2012, exchanges are exchanges, payment processors are payment processors, two different things. Coinbase, Bitpay, GoCoin use BIP 70 AFAIK
336 2015-12-20T10:43:00 <jgarzik> some exchanges do payment processing too - not sure about the protocol
337 2015-12-20T10:43:44 <jl2012> My motivation is very simple: I don't want the adoption of SW is deferred due to any irrelevant reason
338 2015-12-20T10:43:48 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: payment protocol isn't merely for payment processors
339 2015-12-20T10:43:54 <jgarzik> nod
340 2015-12-20T10:44:33 *** fkhan_ has quit IRC
341 2015-12-20T10:44:36 <jl2012> I guess BIP70 is already ready for SW. But obviously there is still many people not using BIP70
342 2015-12-20T10:45:53 *** jgarzik has left #bitcoin-dev
343 2015-12-20T10:46:09 *** jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-dev
344 2015-12-20T10:46:10 *** jgarzik has quit IRC
345 2015-12-20T10:46:10 *** jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-dev
346 2015-12-20T10:47:28 <aschildbach> Yeah especially on the wallet side BIP70 is not very widespread.
347 2015-12-20T10:48:25 <jl2012> having a new address type is the easiest way for wallets to adopt native SW (not with the P2SH hack)
348 2015-12-20T10:49:23 <jl2012> and using the same algorithm minimize the change in wallets
349 2015-12-20T10:54:06 <Luke-Jr> IMO P2SH-hack for quick-adoption and full adoption via payment protocol is sufficient
350 2015-12-20T10:55:57 <jgarzik> P2SH is pro-privacy and pro-upgradability
351 2015-12-20T10:56:15 <jgarzik> Using P2SH out of the gate is nice
352 2015-12-20T10:57:00 *** raedah has quit IRC
353 2015-12-20T10:57:19 <jl2012> jgarzik, there is nothing about privacy here, please read the examples at https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/segwit/bip-segwit.mediawiki
354 2015-12-20T10:57:19 <jgarzik> You can even upgrade to a different type of signature with P2SH
355 2015-12-20T10:58:38 *** fkhan_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
356 2015-12-20T10:58:40 <jl2012> you have exactly the same level of privacy with native v1 SW and SW in P2SH. But SW in P2SH costs more to store, transmit, and validate
357 2015-12-20T10:58:45 <jgarzik> jl2012, Just make a general observation. Using P2SH makes <new feature> indistinguishable from <old, in-use feature> and <other feature we haven't invented yet>
358 2015-12-20T10:58:51 <jgarzik> *making
359 2015-12-20T10:59:21 <jgarzik> Presumably witness & non-witness look the same in TxOut
360 2015-12-20T11:00:03 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
361 2015-12-20T11:00:19 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
362 2015-12-20T11:01:39 *** matsjj has quit IRC
363 2015-12-20T11:02:05 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
364 2015-12-20T11:03:07 <jl2012> jgarzik: it is irrelevant as more people use SW. SW in P2SH must obsolete not long in the future due to its inefficiency
365 2015-12-20T11:03:10 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: the ideal case for SW can't
366 2015-12-20T11:03:27 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: P2SH requires data in the scriptSig field
367 2015-12-20T11:04:26 *** matsjj_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
368 2015-12-20T11:04:50 *** matsjj has quit IRC
369 2015-12-20T11:05:12 *** moa has quit IRC
370 2015-12-20T11:11:00 *** CodesInChaos has joined #bitcoin-dev
371 2015-12-20T11:13:40 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
372 2015-12-20T11:13:43 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, nod
373 2015-12-20T11:23:35 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
374 2015-12-20T11:26:36 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
375 2015-12-20T11:35:22 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
376 2015-12-20T11:37:10 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
377 2015-12-20T11:41:31 *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-dev
378 2015-12-20T11:41:47 *** t7 has joined #bitcoin-dev
379 2015-12-20T11:42:17 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
380 2015-12-20T11:42:32 *** Uglux has joined #bitcoin-dev
381 2015-12-20T11:42:32 *** Uglux has joined #bitcoin-dev
382 2015-12-20T11:43:01 *** sanada has quit IRC
383 2015-12-20T11:43:05 <jtimon> wumpus: sipa can we please merge or close #6625 ?
384 2015-12-20T11:51:48 *** metalcamp has quit IRC
385 2015-12-20T11:53:38 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
386 2015-12-20T11:53:38 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
387 2015-12-20T12:05:25 *** won9 has quit IRC
388 2015-12-20T12:09:15 *** lianj has quit IRC
389 2015-12-20T12:09:28 *** lianj has joined #bitcoin-dev
390 2015-12-20T12:09:29 *** lianj has joined #bitcoin-dev
391 2015-12-20T12:10:06 *** Raziel has quit IRC
392 2015-12-20T12:12:28 <jgarzik> jtimon, I don't see any obstacle to merging
393 2015-12-20T12:12:48 <jgarzik> jtimon, It was ACK'd for 0.12
394 2015-12-20T12:16:35 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
395 2015-12-20T12:21:48 *** MoALTz has quit IRC
396 2015-12-20T12:24:14 *** Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
397 2015-12-20T12:30:18 *** MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-dev
398 2015-12-20T12:32:03 <jtimon> jgarzik: but is still unmerged, I just want to know if I should maintain that in my consensus branch or just forget about it, if it's not going to be merged soon, I'd rather not wait for the next "needs rebase" to know the answer
399 2015-12-20T12:32:36 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
400 2015-12-20T12:45:06 *** jonfen has joined #bitcoin-dev
401 2015-12-20T12:47:26 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
402 2015-12-20T12:48:09 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
403 2015-12-20T13:02:48 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
404 2015-12-20T13:04:16 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
405 2015-12-20T13:05:06 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
406 2015-12-20T13:05:36 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
407 2015-12-20T13:06:08 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
408 2015-12-20T13:07:08 *** karelk has quit IRC
409 2015-12-20T13:07:13 *** Uglux has quit IRC
410 2015-12-20T13:08:45 *** one_zero has quit IRC
411 2015-12-20T13:10:37 *** Raziel has joined #bitcoin-dev
412 2015-12-20T13:14:15 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
413 2015-12-20T13:18:16 *** digitalmagus has joined #bitcoin-dev
414 2015-12-20T13:20:12 *** digitalmagus8 has quit IRC
415 2015-12-20T13:20:48 *** treehug88 has joined #bitcoin-dev
416 2015-12-20T13:28:39 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
417 2015-12-20T13:37:07 *** gielbier has joined #bitcoin-dev
418 2015-12-20T13:37:24 *** gielbier has joined #bitcoin-dev
419 2015-12-20T13:37:44 *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-dev
420 2015-12-20T13:37:45 *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
421 2015-12-20T13:37:45 *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-dev
422 2015-12-20T13:39:44 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
423 2015-12-20T13:39:59 *** matsjj_ has quit IRC
424 2015-12-20T13:48:17 *** GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-dev
425 2015-12-20T13:48:44 *** afk11 has joined #bitcoin-dev
426 2015-12-20T13:52:09 *** jonfen has quit IRC
427 2015-12-20T14:01:33 *** IrishGringo has joined #bitcoin-dev
428 2015-12-20T14:08:41 *** aschildbach has quit IRC
429 2015-12-20T14:11:25 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
430 2015-12-20T14:13:26 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
431 2015-12-20T14:17:46 *** IrishGringo has quit IRC
432 2015-12-20T14:22:16 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
433 2015-12-20T14:26:38 *** treehug88 has quit IRC
434 2015-12-20T14:32:09 *** t7 has quit IRC
435 2015-12-20T14:33:00 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
436 2015-12-20T14:33:22 *** t7 has joined #bitcoin-dev
437 2015-12-20T14:34:12 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
438 2015-12-20T14:36:14 *** Burrito has joined #bitcoin-dev
439 2015-12-20T14:36:39 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
440 2015-12-20T14:36:47 *** digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
441 2015-12-20T14:37:40 *** digitalmagus has quit IRC
442 2015-12-20T14:45:52 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-dev
443 2015-12-20T14:47:58 *** starsoccer has quit IRC
444 2015-12-20T14:48:41 *** digitalmagus has joined #bitcoin-dev
445 2015-12-20T14:49:23 *** digitalmagus8 has quit IRC
446 2015-12-20T14:49:29 *** toto has joined #bitcoin-dev
447 2015-12-20T14:49:52 *** toto is now known as Guest13524
448 2015-12-20T14:50:25 *** d_t has joined #bitcoin-dev
449 2015-12-20T14:50:30 *** d_t has quit IRC
450 2015-12-20T14:50:51 *** petrkr has joined #bitcoin-dev
451 2015-12-20T14:51:32 *** phoenix53 has joined #bitcoin-dev
452 2015-12-20T14:51:35 *** antizionist__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
453 2015-12-20T14:52:01 *** IrishGringo has joined #bitcoin-dev
454 2015-12-20T14:52:53 *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
455 2015-12-20T14:53:29 *** phoenix53 has quit IRC
456 2015-12-20T14:53:40 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
457 2015-12-20T14:56:05 *** Palsson has quit IRC
458 2015-12-20T14:58:49 *** sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
459 2015-12-20T14:59:02 *** petrkr has quit IRC
460 2015-12-20T14:59:54 *** starsoccer has joined #bitcoin-dev
461 2015-12-20T14:59:55 *** starsoccer has joined #bitcoin-dev
462 2015-12-20T15:02:14 *** Guest13524 has left #bitcoin-dev
463 2015-12-20T15:02:28 *** coreRPCquery has joined #bitcoin-dev
464 2015-12-20T15:05:00 <coreRPCquery> Hello all.. i am unsure if i have stumbled upon a bug in heavily used core nodes. My node is long lived & most certainly synched. uptime for weeks. version 011.2 - when trying RPC command to 'listreceivedbyaddress' i am not finding all the results... When looking to 'dumpprivkey' or 'signmessage' it works, so i am 100% sure i have the private key f
465 2015-12-20T15:05:01 <coreRPCquery> or said address.... but i am not seeing its history in list
466 2015-12-20T15:05:30 *** matsjj has quit IRC
467 2015-12-20T15:05:36 <coreRPCquery> i am able to do 'gettransaction' for the txid also, and returns the result expected.... it would appear the list command does not return what i am expecting.... bug or operator error?
468 2015-12-20T15:06:48 <coreRPCquery> also, this node has NO watch-only ever been imported, however doing a list command with True/False for 'includewatchonly' and 'includeempty' will yield different #s of results...
469 2015-12-20T15:40:08 *** IrishGringo has quit IRC
470 2015-12-20T15:41:09 *** coreRPCquery has quit IRC
471 2015-12-20T15:41:25 *** coreRPCquery has joined #bitcoin-dev
472 2015-12-20T15:43:44 *** IrishGringo has joined #bitcoin-dev
473 2015-12-20T15:47:53 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
474 2015-12-20T15:48:19 *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
475 2015-12-20T15:51:27 *** siegfired has joined #bitcoin-dev
476 2015-12-20T15:51:40 <siegfired> hi!
477 2015-12-20T15:52:41 *** IrishGringo has quit IRC
478 2015-12-20T15:52:57 <coreRPCquery> furthermore, validateaddress also returns back that it belongs to the wallet, and is valid etc... so there is definitely something wrong with the 'listreceivedbyaddress' command
479 2015-12-20T15:55:33 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
480 2015-12-20T15:59:55 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
481 2015-12-20T16:00:41 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
482 2015-12-20T16:03:56 *** tucenaber_ has quit IRC
483 2015-12-20T16:04:12 *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
484 2015-12-20T16:06:18 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-dev
485 2015-12-20T16:06:55 *** siegfired has quit IRC
486 2015-12-20T16:08:55 *** NLNico has quit IRC
487 2015-12-20T16:13:22 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
488 2015-12-20T16:14:15 *** tucenaber_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
489 2015-12-20T16:14:26 *** Ahmed90 has quit IRC
490 2015-12-20T16:22:28 *** tucenaber_ has quit IRC
491 2015-12-20T16:25:57 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
492 2015-12-20T16:30:44 *** tucenaber_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
493 2015-12-20T16:30:54 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-dev
494 2015-12-20T16:36:05 *** akrmn has quit IRC
495 2015-12-20T16:39:15 *** CheckDavid has quit IRC
496 2015-12-20T16:41:48 *** chjj has quit IRC
497 2015-12-20T16:48:57 *** Emcy has joined #bitcoin-dev
498 2015-12-20T16:48:58 *** Emcy has joined #bitcoin-dev
499 2015-12-20T16:50:59 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
500 2015-12-20T16:51:00 *** Emcy_ has quit IRC
501 2015-12-20T16:54:30 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
502 2015-12-20T16:58:59 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
503 2015-12-20T16:59:06 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
504 2015-12-20T16:59:41 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
505 2015-12-20T17:00:46 *** Palsson has quit IRC
506 2015-12-20T17:04:04 *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
507 2015-12-20T17:05:35 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
508 2015-12-20T17:08:18 *** koad has joined #bitcoin-dev
509 2015-12-20T17:08:18 *** koad has joined #bitcoin-dev
510 2015-12-20T17:09:23 *** Ahmed90 has quit IRC
511 2015-12-20T17:12:36 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
512 2015-12-20T17:15:10 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
513 2015-12-20T17:15:55 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
514 2015-12-20T17:19:31 *** brson has joined #bitcoin-dev
515 2015-12-20T17:26:23 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
516 2015-12-20T17:26:24 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
517 2015-12-20T17:26:36 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
518 2015-12-20T17:28:08 <t7> :o
519 2015-12-20T17:28:30 <t7> on HEAD?
520 2015-12-20T17:28:49 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
521 2015-12-20T17:28:51 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
522 2015-12-20T17:32:05 *** wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-dev
523 2015-12-20T17:32:06 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
524 2015-12-20T17:32:06 *** wallet421 has quit IRC
525 2015-12-20T17:32:06 *** wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-dev
526 2015-12-20T17:32:06 *** wallet421 is now known as wallet42
527 2015-12-20T17:33:06 *** erasmosp_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
528 2015-12-20T17:33:11 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
529 2015-12-20T17:34:57 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
530 2015-12-20T17:36:20 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
531 2015-12-20T17:38:53 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
532 2015-12-20T17:40:36 *** dave4925 has quit IRC
533 2015-12-20T17:40:48 <sipa> maaku: no, it can't be unbalanced
534 2015-12-20T17:42:16 <Ylbam> 438
535 2015-12-20T17:43:01 <sipa> maaku: all data is at the leaves
536 2015-12-20T17:45:12 *** wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-dev
537 2015-12-20T17:45:13 *** wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-dev
538 2015-12-20T17:45:13 *** wallet42 is now known as Guest59505
539 2015-12-20T17:45:13 *** wallet421 is now known as wallet42
540 2015-12-20T17:45:14 *** Guest59505 has quit IRC
541 2015-12-20T17:48:29 *** pasky has joined #bitcoin-dev
542 2015-12-20T17:49:14 *** BGL has quit IRC
543 2015-12-20T17:53:09 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
544 2015-12-20T17:53:44 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
545 2015-12-20T17:54:47 *** Palsson has quit IRC
546 2015-12-20T17:54:59 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
547 2015-12-20T17:58:26 *** YoY has quit IRC
548 2015-12-20T18:00:37 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
549 2015-12-20T18:01:30 *** _yoy_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
550 2015-12-20T18:01:34 *** memymo has quit IRC
551 2015-12-20T18:03:14 *** antizionist__ has quit IRC
552 2015-12-20T18:03:56 <maaku> sipa: that's what I meant by suboptimal -- some commited structures are more space critical than others, and it would be nicer to have a tree structure that allowed those to be placed at a higher level in the tree
553 2015-12-20T18:04:16 <maaku> but reading the code (and with some help in scrollback), I think unbalanced trees are ok, right?
554 2015-12-20T18:04:28 <maaku> it's just checking a path so the validation code is in fact structurally agnostic
555 2015-12-20T18:04:51 <maaku> *more space critical = more sensitive to proof size
556 2015-12-20T18:05:22 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
557 2015-12-20T18:06:14 <sipa> maaku: the size of the tree is shared for all commitments
558 2015-12-20T18:06:49 <maaku> sipa: where in the code is that required?
559 2015-12-20T18:06:59 <sipa> and the path is determined by a hash, not chosen per commitment
560 2015-12-20T18:07:31 <sipa> if you don't do that, you could have two separate witness commitnents for a block
561 2015-12-20T18:07:51 <maaku> sipa: not if you specify the path explicitly
562 2015-12-20T18:08:10 <sipa> the path is part of the witness
563 2015-12-20T18:08:27 <maaku> yes, [<magic> <path> <hash>]
564 2015-12-20T18:08:47 <sipa> i really don't follow
565 2015-12-20T18:09:00 *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
566 2015-12-20T18:09:28 <maaku> right now you are taking a hash to figure out what index to place the commitment. i really don't see the need for that
567 2015-12-20T18:09:44 <maaku> put the path to the witness in the coinbase commitment instead
568 2015-12-20T18:10:02 <sipa> then why do you not just put all commitments in the coinbase?
569 2015-12-20T18:10:19 <sipa> the point is combining so you can compress
570 2015-12-20T18:10:21 <maaku> so the essential information of the commitment is <root hash> and <path> both of which are in the coinbase string (or wherever the commitment goes)
571 2015-12-20T18:10:38 <maaku> what do you mean by compress?
572 2015-12-20T18:11:03 <sipa> you can't go stuff all paths for every possible commitment in the base block
573 2015-12-20T18:11:24 <maaku> maybe our confusion is over "path" . by path I mean "left, right, left, left, right"
574 2015-12-20T18:11:32 <sipa> the point is having o(1) data in the block, and allow near infinite commitments in it
575 2015-12-20T18:11:35 <sipa> yesz i know
576 2015-12-20T18:11:37 <maaku> which can be encoded as an integer -- 0b01001
577 2015-12-20T18:11:43 <maaku> not the actual hashes
578 2015-12-20T18:11:43 <sipa> yes, i know
579 2015-12-20T18:11:55 <sipa> but it's one integer per possible commitment
580 2015-12-20T18:12:10 <maaku> per consensus critical commitment
581 2015-12-20T18:12:14 <maaku> i do not see this as an issue
582 2015-12-20T18:12:40 <sipa> i really prefer something that obviously scales well beyond that
583 2015-12-20T18:12:56 <sipa> and allows us to trivially add new commitments
584 2015-12-20T18:13:19 <maaku> if that's the case you can use a purposefully unbalanaced tree with commitments at fixed positions -- e.g. a merkle mountain range or huffman tree
585 2015-12-20T18:13:28 <sipa> instead of worrying whether we'll go exceed some limit
586 2015-12-20T18:13:59 <sipa> perhaps just put the depth in the commitment itself
587 2015-12-20T18:14:23 <sipa> if the commitment uses a different hash than the merkle structure, i think that is safe
588 2015-12-20T18:14:55 <maaku> sipa: it's not about exceeding some limit. imagine we have 1000 different commitments, but I still want (e.g.) the witness or fraud proof or block header commiment to have a short path, because minimal proof size
589 2015-12-20T18:15:05 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
590 2015-12-20T18:15:14 *** BGL has joined #bitcoin-dev
591 2015-12-20T18:16:25 <maaku> an unbalanced tree structure lets that happen. you can put your factom proofs or whatever deep in the tree, but keep the important protocol-sensitive stuff that needs to be kept small, higher up
592 2015-12-20T18:16:47 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
593 2015-12-20T18:16:48 <sipa> yes, this would allow unbalanced trees
594 2015-12-20T18:17:03 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
595 2015-12-20T18:17:10 <sipa> but i'm not convinced it's safe
596 2015-12-20T18:17:32 *** brson has quit IRC
597 2015-12-20T18:17:55 <maaku> btw i'm pretty sure that your code does allow unbalanced trees, so long as you put the commitment (if needed) for the other trees somewhere else
598 2015-12-20T18:18:05 <maaku> although it does so somewhat annoyingly because you have to grind the nonce
599 2015-12-20T18:18:19 <maaku> *in a somewhat annoying way
600 2015-12-20T18:18:37 *** d_t has joined #bitcoin-dev
601 2015-12-20T18:18:44 <sipa> well factom things can use a non-consensus commitment
602 2015-12-20T18:18:52 *** brson has joined #bitcoin-dev
603 2015-12-20T18:19:16 <sipa> the reason for not reusing the namecoin root but a separate one is exactly to separate the consensus critical one and the one defined externally
604 2015-12-20T18:19:20 *** tripleslash_o is now known as tripleslash
605 2015-12-20T18:19:27 <maaku> it was just an example
606 2015-12-20T18:19:48 <maaku> merged mining headers would be a less sensitive example of something non-consensus
607 2015-12-20T18:20:09 <sipa> so those can go in the namecoin root
608 2015-12-20T18:20:20 <maaku> but I don't really see the need to keep them separate
609 2015-12-20T18:20:29 <sipa> ah
610 2015-12-20T18:20:36 <sipa> the reason is infrastructure
611 2015-12-20T18:21:18 <maaku> let's say a commitment is added in the future -- to older nodes it appears as if there is non-consensus information in the tree
612 2015-12-20T18:21:30 <sipa> i think it is hard to have part of the commitments come from outside and part from inside, and force mining software to combine them into a single grinded commitment using different algorothms
613 2015-12-20T18:21:57 <sipa> not in my proposal
614 2015-12-20T18:22:22 <sipa> the tree is never materialized
615 2015-12-20T18:25:03 <sipa> but i think it can be made to support unbalanced trees
616 2015-12-20T18:25:39 <sipa> if the path still comes from the randomizer, but its length is per-commitment
617 2015-12-20T18:28:41 <maaku> i'll have to take this up with you at a better hour, it's late here
618 2015-12-20T18:29:52 <sipa> ok!
619 2015-12-20T18:30:03 <sipa> i'll adapt my code to support unbalanced trees
620 2015-12-20T18:30:48 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
621 2015-12-20T18:33:48 *** benrcole has quit IRC
622 2015-12-20T18:36:21 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
623 2015-12-20T18:36:29 *** wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
624 2015-12-20T18:45:33 *** juneBug has joined #bitcoin-dev
625 2015-12-20T18:45:36 <jl2012> sipa: "if the path still comes from the randomizer, but its length is per-commitment": so it's up to the miner to decide how deep they want to put the commitment?
626 2015-12-20T18:45:44 <juneBug> Hello
627 2015-12-20T18:45:45 <juneBug> https://litecointalk.org/index.php?Ja=12&topic=28005.0
628 2015-12-20T18:45:54 <juneBug> Check it out... urgent request.
629 2015-12-20T18:46:11 *** Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-dev
630 2015-12-20T18:46:41 <katu> juneBug: oh god, how many channels are you going to spam :/
631 2015-12-20T18:46:55 <juneBug> how many are there... and its not spam
632 2015-12-20T18:46:55 *** LeMiner has quit IRC
633 2015-12-20T18:47:00 <juneBug> its saving a life
634 2015-12-20T18:47:03 <juneBug> 3 to be exact
635 2015-12-20T18:47:06 *** juneBug has left #bitcoin-dev
636 2015-12-20T18:50:00 <jl2012> I think that could be a good idea, especially when the total number of commitment is not a power of 2, it is most efficient
637 2015-12-20T18:53:11 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
638 2015-12-20T18:53:46 *** Palsson has quit IRC
639 2015-12-20T18:59:53 <jl2012> I notice that you put the path as the first item in the coinbase witness. So the length of the path divided by 32 will tell you the depth
640 2015-12-20T19:00:02 *** tripleslash has quit IRC
641 2015-12-20T19:01:12 <jl2012> I assume when we have another consensus critical commitment in the future, it's path would be the second item in the coinbase witness?
642 2015-12-20T19:03:27 *** zookolaptop is now known as zooko
643 2015-12-20T19:07:28 *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-dev
644 2015-12-20T19:09:54 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
645 2015-12-20T19:10:06 *** chjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
646 2015-12-20T19:10:32 *** Dizzle has quit IRC
647 2015-12-20T19:12:46 *** copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-dev
648 2015-12-20T19:14:30 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
649 2015-12-20T19:16:08 <sipa> jl2012: right
650 2015-12-20T19:16:53 <sipa> jl2012: it's path would be wherever it wants... if it has its own associated optional data structure, the path will go in that data structure
651 2015-12-20T19:17:28 *** airbreather_ has quit IRC
652 2015-12-20T19:17:46 *** zooko has quit IRC
653 2015-12-20T19:18:44 *** Ahmed90 has quit IRC
654 2015-12-20T19:18:52 *** ssshhh has joined #bitcoin-dev
655 2015-12-20T19:18:55 *** airbreather has joined #bitcoin-dev
656 2015-12-20T19:22:04 <jl2012> sipa: in that case you may even save a byte in the coinbase (or wherever else) for the depth of the tree
657 2015-12-20T19:22:46 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
658 2015-12-20T19:23:02 <jl2012> the depth is determined by the length of the path. If you want to restrict it to 32 level, just restrict the path to be 32*32 at max
659 2015-12-20T19:24:30 *** ssshhh has quit IRC
660 2015-12-20T19:27:22 *** memymo has quit IRC
661 2015-12-20T19:28:23 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
662 2015-12-20T19:29:04 <sipa> jl2012: right, i was formerly of the opinion that the (in witness) commitment could not have any influence over where in the tree it goes
663 2015-12-20T19:29:52 <sipa> jl2012: but talking to maaku made me realize it's fine to let the witness commitment decide its own depth, as long as the position is determined in such a way that if two commitments for the same data exist in the tree, one is a child of the other
664 2015-12-20T19:33:16 <Eliel> which kinds of multisigs are currently considered standard? n of m is, obviously but if someone wanted (1 of 2) and (1 of 1), would that be standard?
665 2015-12-20T19:33:42 *** cryptapus__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
666 2015-12-20T19:33:43 *** cryptapus__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
667 2015-12-20T19:34:46 *** cryptapus_ has quit IRC
668 2015-12-20T19:35:14 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
669 2015-12-20T19:35:49 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
670 2015-12-20T19:40:59 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
671 2015-12-20T19:42:51 *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
672 2015-12-20T19:42:59 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
673 2015-12-20T19:44:51 <sipa> Eliel: all of them
674 2015-12-20T19:44:58 <Eliel> (in case it wasn't clear, a multisig that always requires signature with a specific key and also requires one signature from a set of 2 keys)
675 2015-12-20T19:45:40 <sipa> there are no longer any standardness rules on p2sh
676 2015-12-20T19:45:48 <Eliel> ah, great.
677 2015-12-20T19:46:26 *** LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-dev
678 2015-12-20T19:51:15 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
679 2015-12-20T19:53:37 *** rolandnsharp has quit IRC
680 2015-12-20T19:53:54 *** rolandnsharp has joined #bitcoin-dev
681 2015-12-20T19:54:29 *** LeMiner has quit IRC
682 2015-12-20T19:55:50 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
683 2015-12-20T19:57:11 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
684 2015-12-20T19:59:05 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
685 2015-12-20T19:59:51 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
686 2015-12-20T20:00:08 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
687 2015-12-20T20:13:28 *** metalcamp has joined #bitcoin-dev
688 2015-12-20T20:20:38 *** memymo has quit IRC
689 2015-12-20T20:21:00 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
690 2015-12-20T20:21:43 *** waxwing has joined #bitcoin-dev
691 2015-12-20T20:23:44 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
692 2015-12-20T20:24:38 *** matsjj has quit IRC
693 2015-12-20T20:24:53 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
694 2015-12-20T20:26:26 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
695 2015-12-20T20:27:15 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
696 2015-12-20T20:29:42 *** brson has quit IRC
697 2015-12-20T20:32:26 *** memymo has quit IRC
698 2015-12-20T20:35:33 *** antizionist__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
699 2015-12-20T20:45:23 *** RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-dev
700 2015-12-20T20:46:19 *** netg has quit IRC
701 2015-12-20T20:46:31 *** digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
702 2015-12-20T20:47:02 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
703 2015-12-20T20:47:20 *** digitalmagus has quit IRC
704 2015-12-20T20:52:24 *** akrmn has quit IRC
705 2015-12-20T20:52:46 *** sipi has joined #bitcoin-dev
706 2015-12-20T20:55:26 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
707 2015-12-20T20:56:13 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
708 2015-12-20T20:56:32 *** d_t has quit IRC
709 2015-12-20T21:01:06 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
710 2015-12-20T21:03:23 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
711 2015-12-20T21:05:06 *** memymo has quit IRC
712 2015-12-20T21:07:50 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
713 2015-12-20T21:11:26 *** metalcamp has quit IRC
714 2015-12-20T21:11:32 *** molz has joined #bitcoin-dev
715 2015-12-20T21:12:56 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-dev
716 2015-12-20T21:12:56 *** netg has joined #bitcoin-dev
717 2015-12-20T21:14:14 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
718 2015-12-20T21:14:55 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
719 2015-12-20T21:14:55 *** moli has quit IRC
720 2015-12-20T21:16:24 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
721 2015-12-20T21:16:30 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
722 2015-12-20T21:20:09 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
723 2015-12-20T21:23:31 *** d_t has joined #bitcoin-dev
724 2015-12-20T21:23:53 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
725 2015-12-20T21:25:02 *** memymo has quit IRC
726 2015-12-20T21:26:37 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
727 2015-12-20T21:26:58 *** JackH has quit IRC
728 2015-12-20T21:27:36 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
729 2015-12-20T21:30:51 *** cryptapus_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
730 2015-12-20T21:30:52 *** cryptapus_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
731 2015-12-20T21:31:10 *** LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-dev
732 2015-12-20T21:32:56 *** blackjid has quit IRC
733 2015-12-20T21:33:42 *** blackjid has joined #bitcoin-dev
734 2015-12-20T21:34:10 *** rnvk has quit IRC
735 2015-12-20T21:34:40 *** cryptapus_ has quit IRC
736 2015-12-20T21:35:38 *** memymo has quit IRC
737 2015-12-20T21:35:53 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
738 2015-12-20T21:38:11 *** cryptapus_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
739 2015-12-20T21:38:12 *** cryptapus_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
740 2015-12-20T21:39:14 *** jtimon has quit IRC
741 2015-12-20T21:41:26 *** memymo has quit IRC
742 2015-12-20T21:42:48 *** matsjj has quit IRC
743 2015-12-20T21:44:32 *** cryptapus_ has quit IRC
744 2015-12-20T21:58:29 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
745 2015-12-20T22:02:00 *** memymo has joined #bitcoin-dev
746 2015-12-20T22:02:00 *** neozaru has joined #bitcoin-dev
747 2015-12-20T22:03:12 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
748 2015-12-20T22:06:48 *** memymo has quit IRC
749 2015-12-20T22:11:09 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
750 2015-12-20T22:15:09 *** CodesInChaos has joined #bitcoin-dev
751 2015-12-20T22:15:55 *** won9 has joined #bitcoin-dev
752 2015-12-20T22:16:43 *** Burrito has quit IRC
753 2015-12-20T22:17:04 *** Burrito has joined #bitcoin-dev
754 2015-12-20T22:22:00 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
755 2015-12-20T22:33:52 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
756 2015-12-20T22:37:48 *** benrcole has quit IRC
757 2015-12-20T22:38:03 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
758 2015-12-20T22:41:34 *** xss has quit IRC
759 2015-12-20T22:43:02 *** benrcole has quit IRC
760 2015-12-20T22:45:56 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
761 2015-12-20T22:53:45 *** kadoban has joined #bitcoin-dev
762 2015-12-20T22:57:50 *** benrcole has quit IRC
763 2015-12-20T22:59:44 *** blackjid has quit IRC
764 2015-12-20T23:00:46 *** blackjid has joined #bitcoin-dev
765 2015-12-20T23:08:51 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
766 2015-12-20T23:10:53 *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
767 2015-12-20T23:11:12 *** moa has joined #bitcoin-dev
768 2015-12-20T23:15:26 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
769 2015-12-20T23:15:51 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
770 2015-12-20T23:16:06 *** neozaru has quit IRC
771 2015-12-20T23:17:46 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
772 2015-12-20T23:18:06 *** circuspeanut has quit IRC
773 2015-12-20T23:20:17 *** krog has joined #bitcoin-dev
774 2015-12-20T23:21:53 *** erasmosp_ has quit IRC
775 2015-12-20T23:23:47 *** coin_trader has quit IRC
776 2015-12-20T23:24:31 *** t7 has quit IRC
777 2015-12-20T23:29:16 *** CheckDavid has quit IRC
778 2015-12-20T23:29:54 *** Yoghur114_2 has quit IRC
779 2015-12-20T23:33:18 *** moa has quit IRC
780 2015-12-20T23:37:03 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
781 2015-12-20T23:40:26 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
782 2015-12-20T23:50:05 *** phish has joined #bitcoin-dev
783 2015-12-20T23:58:31 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev