1 2015-12-21T00:02:36 *** Quent1 has quit IRC
2 2015-12-21T00:04:53 *** c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
3 2015-12-21T00:05:02 *** benrcole has quit IRC
4 2015-12-21T00:08:07 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
5 2015-12-21T00:08:34 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
6 2015-12-21T00:09:23 *** sipi has quit IRC
7 2015-12-21T00:09:31 *** cyphase has joined #bitcoin-dev
8 2015-12-21T00:09:32 *** cyphase has joined #bitcoin-dev
9 2015-12-21T00:10:20 *** belcher has quit IRC
10 2015-12-21T00:12:08 *** cyphase has quit IRC
11 2015-12-21T00:12:16 *** c-cex-yuriy has quit IRC
12 2015-12-21T00:15:03 *** cyphase has joined #bitcoin-dev
13 2015-12-21T00:18:49 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
14 2015-12-21T00:18:51 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
15 2015-12-21T00:18:57 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
16 2015-12-21T00:23:13 *** antizionist__ has quit IRC
17 2015-12-21T00:23:15 *** benrcole has quit IRC
18 2015-12-21T00:23:22 *** cyphase has quit IRC
19 2015-12-21T00:26:42 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
20 2015-12-21T00:31:47 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-dev
21 2015-12-21T00:31:55 *** belcher has quit IRC
22 2015-12-21T00:31:55 *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-dev
23 2015-12-21T00:32:21 *** Guest63156 has joined #bitcoin-dev
24 2015-12-21T00:34:37 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
25 2015-12-21T00:36:03 *** digitalmagus8 has quit IRC
26 2015-12-21T00:36:10 *** digitalmagus has joined #bitcoin-dev
27 2015-12-21T00:52:55 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
28 2015-12-21T00:53:35 *** moa has joined #bitcoin-dev
29 2015-12-21T00:54:27 *** Guest63156 has quit IRC
30 2015-12-21T00:55:21 *** Guest17880 has joined #bitcoin-dev
31 2015-12-21T00:59:13 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
32 2015-12-21T01:00:21 *** Guest17880 has quit IRC
33 2015-12-21T01:01:03 *** Palsson has quit IRC
34 2015-12-21T01:05:20 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
35 2015-12-21T01:10:15 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
36 2015-12-21T01:10:49 <Iriez> Sipa: When you say "but I can only agree with merging it in Core if I'm convinced that there is no strong opposition to it from others.", could you please explain how you measure opposition? Im curious what consensus measuring mechanisms exist right now and how you utilize them to determine the level of consensus or opposition on issues.
37 2015-12-21T01:11:01 <Iriez> And thank you.
38 2015-12-21T01:16:08 <MarcoPon> Hi guys! May I ask one simple thing: how exactly are BIP numebers assigned? Case in point, how can I get a number for my Blockchain reference / explorarion one? https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/202 - I see new BIPS (about block size) keep coming up... did I just have to choose one?
39 2015-12-21T01:18:07 *** iv3c has quit IRC
40 2015-12-21T01:18:56 <belcher> MarcoPon i think its just a random number
41 2015-12-21T01:19:14 <belcher> you ask the maintainer of the bip repos and they assign you a number
42 2015-12-21T01:19:55 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
43 2015-12-21T01:21:07 <MarcoPon> well, I sent a message to Greg Maxwell weeks ago (I even followed his suggestion on the mailing list to temporary name a BIP with the nickname), and the pull it's marked as "Need number assignment", but that doesn't exactly seems to work, so to speak! :)
44 2015-12-21T01:21:22 <MarcoPon> -- is marked
45 2015-12-21T01:24:15 *** benrcole has quit IRC
46 2015-12-21T01:30:34 *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
47 2015-12-21T01:34:20 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
48 2015-12-21T01:34:55 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC
49 2015-12-21T01:35:06 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-dev
50 2015-12-21T01:38:18 *** pasky has left #bitcoin-dev
51 2015-12-21T01:39:55 *** sneak has quit IRC
52 2015-12-21T01:40:58 *** sneak has joined #bitcoin-dev
53 2015-12-21T01:40:59 *** sneak has joined #bitcoin-dev
54 2015-12-21T01:41:26 *** d_t has quit IRC
55 2015-12-21T01:42:48 *** Emzy has quit IRC
56 2015-12-21T01:44:32 *** Ylbam has quit IRC
57 2015-12-21T01:50:04 *** raedah has quit IRC
58 2015-12-21T01:54:51 *** Quent1 has joined #bitcoin-dev
59 2015-12-21T02:00:03 *** dermoth has quit IRC
60 2015-12-21T02:00:32 *** dermoth has joined #bitcoin-dev
61 2015-12-21T02:00:40 *** _yoy_ has quit IRC
62 2015-12-21T02:02:07 *** YoY has joined #bitcoin-dev
63 2015-12-21T02:03:33 *** one_zero has joined #bitcoin-dev
64 2015-12-21T02:04:35 *** Soligor has quit IRC
65 2015-12-21T02:05:02 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
66 2015-12-21T02:05:41 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
67 2015-12-21T02:06:01 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
68 2015-12-21T02:07:41 <btcdrak> MarcoPon: First submit the BIP text as a PR, and then it can be assigned a number, Until then please name it bip-yourname-shorttitle
69 2015-12-21T02:11:39 *** Soligor has joined #bitcoin-dev
70 2015-12-21T02:12:14 *** swappermall has quit IRC
71 2015-12-21T02:22:32 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
72 2015-12-21T02:27:32 *** benrcole has quit IRC
73 2015-12-21T02:31:29 *** brooss has joined #bitcoin-dev
74 2015-12-21T02:46:26 *** Raziel has quit IRC
75 2015-12-21T02:49:56 *** Raziel has joined #bitcoin-dev
76 2015-12-21T02:55:53 *** Raziel has quit IRC
77 2015-12-21T02:58:17 *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-dev
78 2015-12-21T03:01:56 *** jtoomim has joined #bitcoin-dev
79 2015-12-21T03:03:41 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
80 2015-12-21T03:12:33 *** won9 has quit IRC
81 2015-12-21T03:14:53 *** xiangfu has quit IRC
82 2015-12-21T03:16:56 *** xiangfu has joined #bitcoin-dev
83 2015-12-21T03:18:37 *** won9 has joined #bitcoin-dev
84 2015-12-21T03:24:07 *** coreRPCquery has quit IRC
85 2015-12-21T03:26:25 *** xiangfu has quit IRC
86 2015-12-21T03:26:41 *** xiangfu has joined #bitcoin-dev
87 2015-12-21T03:33:13 *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
88 2015-12-21T03:34:37 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
89 2015-12-21T03:36:01 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
90 2015-12-21T03:38:01 *** Subo1977 has joined #bitcoin-dev
91 2015-12-21T03:39:19 *** benrcole has quit IRC
92 2015-12-21T03:41:06 *** Delta_ has quit IRC
93 2015-12-21T03:41:16 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
94 2015-12-21T03:43:59 <kanzure> rusty: we need to mass re-enable modbits
95 2015-12-21T03:46:19 <btcdrak> rusty: kanzure: please
96 2015-12-21T03:47:00 <btcdrak> in fact, now that jgarzik has recused himself of moderation, someone else needs the administrator password.
97 2015-12-21T03:47:30 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
98 2015-12-21T03:49:09 *** belcher has quit IRC
99 2015-12-21T03:51:36 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
100 2015-12-21T03:52:14 *** sparetire_ has quit IRC
101 2015-12-21T03:53:44 *** akrmn has quit IRC
102 2015-12-21T03:57:11 *** moa has quit IRC
103 2015-12-21T03:57:29 *** moa has joined #bitcoin-dev
104 2015-12-21T04:01:53 *** GGuyZ has quit IRC
105 2015-12-21T04:02:53 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
106 2015-12-21T04:05:08 *** GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-dev
107 2015-12-21T04:09:11 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
108 2015-12-21T04:11:38 *** DigiByteDev has joined #bitcoin-dev
109 2015-12-21T04:13:30 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
110 2015-12-21T04:21:27 *** DigiByteDev has quit IRC
111 2015-12-21T04:21:34 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
112 2015-12-21T04:22:54 *** DigiByteDev has joined #bitcoin-dev
113 2015-12-21T04:26:48 *** p15x has joined #bitcoin-dev
114 2015-12-21T04:27:00 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
115 2015-12-21T04:30:19 *** geneous has joined #bitcoin-dev
116 2015-12-21T04:34:03 *** RedEmerald has joined #bitcoin-dev
117 2015-12-21T04:34:18 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC
118 2015-12-21T04:35:19 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
119 2015-12-21T04:39:43 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
120 2015-12-21T04:39:45 *** benrcole has quit IRC
121 2015-12-21T04:46:27 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-dev
122 2015-12-21T04:52:04 *** GGuyZ has quit IRC
123 2015-12-21T04:52:30 *** Raziel has joined #bitcoin-dev
124 2015-12-21T04:53:50 *** metalcamp has joined #bitcoin-dev
125 2015-12-21T04:59:50 *** TheSeven has quit IRC
126 2015-12-21T05:01:23 *** TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-dev
127 2015-12-21T05:05:26 *** go1111111 has joined #bitcoin-dev
128 2015-12-21T05:05:50 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
129 2015-12-21T05:06:04 *** JohnKenney has quit IRC
130 2015-12-21T05:07:37 *** JohnKenney has joined #bitcoin-dev
131 2015-12-21T05:25:14 *** iv3c has quit IRC
132 2015-12-21T05:26:09 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
133 2015-12-21T05:27:54 *** p15x has quit IRC
134 2015-12-21T05:32:58 *** tripleslash has joined #bitcoin-dev
135 2015-12-21T05:34:11 *** astrodoom has quit IRC
136 2015-12-21T05:36:02 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
137 2015-12-21T05:38:17 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
138 2015-12-21T05:40:56 *** benrcole has quit IRC
139 2015-12-21T05:44:20 *** stapler117 is now known as clarkz117
140 2015-12-21T05:58:37 *** zookolap` has joined #bitcoin-dev
141 2015-12-21T06:12:51 *** clarkz117 is now known as stapler117
142 2015-12-21T06:15:16 *** gwollon has joined #bitcoin-dev
143 2015-12-21T06:17:44 *** gwollon has quit IRC
144 2015-12-21T06:23:06 *** Burrito has quit IRC
145 2015-12-21T06:24:02 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
146 2015-12-21T06:26:43 *** chmod755 has joined #bitcoin-dev
147 2015-12-21T06:31:36 *** p15x has joined #bitcoin-dev
148 2015-12-21T06:35:06 *** Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-dev
149 2015-12-21T06:35:42 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
150 2015-12-21T06:35:59 *** p15x has quit IRC
151 2015-12-21T06:39:06 *** zookolap` has quit IRC
152 2015-12-21T06:42:34 *** p15 has joined #bitcoin-dev
153 2015-12-21T06:44:57 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
154 2015-12-21T06:49:04 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
155 2015-12-21T06:51:12 *** kadoban has quit IRC
156 2015-12-21T07:04:15 *** matsjj has quit IRC
157 2015-12-21T07:06:00 *** Bambina has joined #bitcoin-dev
158 2015-12-21T07:09:04 *** neozaru has joined #bitcoin-dev
159 2015-12-21T07:10:12 *** Bambina has quit IRC
160 2015-12-21T07:11:40 *** arowser has quit IRC
161 2015-12-21T07:11:56 *** koobs has left #bitcoin-dev
162 2015-12-21T07:12:07 *** arowser has joined #bitcoin-dev
163 2015-12-21T07:13:32 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
164 2015-12-21T07:16:45 *** moa has quit IRC
165 2015-12-21T07:23:03 *** DigiByteDev has quit IRC
166 2015-12-21T07:26:35 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
167 2015-12-21T07:33:15 *** bliljerk101 has quit IRC
168 2015-12-21T07:33:26 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
169 2015-12-21T07:34:23 *** bliljerk101 has joined #bitcoin-dev
170 2015-12-21T07:43:24 *** Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-dev
171 2015-12-21T07:44:33 *** p15_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
172 2015-12-21T07:46:26 *** p15 has quit IRC
173 2015-12-21T07:46:34 *** CodesInChaos has joined #bitcoin-dev
174 2015-12-21T07:48:31 *** YoY has quit IRC
175 2015-12-21T07:50:06 *** YoY has joined #bitcoin-dev
176 2015-12-21T07:53:45 *** DougieBot5000 has quit IRC
177 2015-12-21T07:55:01 *** horlicks_ has quit IRC
178 2015-12-21T07:57:33 *** krog has quit IRC
179 2015-12-21T07:59:19 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
180 2015-12-21T08:01:57 *** horlicks_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
181 2015-12-21T08:02:16 *** damethos has joined #bitcoin-dev
182 2015-12-21T08:05:42 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
183 2015-12-21T08:06:21 *** neozaru has quit IRC
184 2015-12-21T08:06:40 *** Grouver has joined #bitcoin-dev
185 2015-12-21T08:08:24 *** nowan has quit IRC
186 2015-12-21T08:08:33 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
187 2015-12-21T08:11:29 *** moa has joined #bitcoin-dev
188 2015-12-21T08:14:38 *** nowan has joined #bitcoin-dev
189 2015-12-21T08:20:39 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
190 2015-12-21T08:20:54 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
191 2015-12-21T08:21:31 *** BashCo has quit IRC
192 2015-12-21T08:28:48 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
193 2015-12-21T08:33:15 *** rdbell has quit IRC
194 2015-12-21T08:34:15 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
195 2015-12-21T08:38:12 *** p15_ has quit IRC
196 2015-12-21T08:38:55 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
197 2015-12-21T08:39:16 *** p15 has joined #bitcoin-dev
198 2015-12-21T08:40:17 *** rdbell has quit IRC
199 2015-12-21T08:40:38 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
200 2015-12-21T08:41:16 *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-dev
201 2015-12-21T08:43:34 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
202 2015-12-21T08:44:15 *** BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
203 2015-12-21T08:44:21 *** phantomcircuit has quit IRC
204 2015-12-21T08:45:22 *** phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-dev
205 2015-12-21T08:46:24 *** BashCo has quit IRC
206 2015-12-21T08:47:21 *** Dizzle has quit IRC
207 2015-12-21T08:47:27 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
208 2015-12-21T08:54:38 *** damethos has quit IRC
209 2015-12-21T08:54:39 *** gielbier has quit IRC
210 2015-12-21T08:54:48 *** damethos has joined #bitcoin-dev
211 2015-12-21T08:57:11 *** phantomcircuit has left #bitcoin-dev
212 2015-12-21T09:00:08 *** tarantillo_ has quit IRC
213 2015-12-21T09:00:23 *** tarantillo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
214 2015-12-21T09:08:03 *** go1111111 has quit IRC
215 2015-12-21T09:08:47 *** wangchun has quit IRC
216 2015-12-21T09:09:04 *** wangchun has joined #bitcoin-dev
217 2015-12-21T09:13:56 *** bedeho has joined #bitcoin-dev
218 2015-12-21T09:15:55 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
219 2015-12-21T09:16:15 *** Madars has quit IRC
220 2015-12-21T09:18:06 *** xiangfu has quit IRC
221 2015-12-21T09:18:25 *** xiangfu has joined #bitcoin-dev
222 2015-12-21T09:19:26 *** jzk has quit IRC
223 2015-12-21T09:19:57 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
224 2015-12-21T09:19:57 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
225 2015-12-21T09:21:48 *** iv3c has quit IRC
226 2015-12-21T09:26:12 *** benrcole has quit IRC
227 2015-12-21T09:27:10 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
228 2015-12-21T09:27:14 *** jzk has joined #bitcoin-dev
229 2015-12-21T09:36:00 *** nowan has quit IRC
230 2015-12-21T09:36:22 *** benrcole has quit IRC
231 2015-12-21T09:36:26 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
232 2015-12-21T09:37:11 *** jzk has joined #bitcoin-dev
233 2015-12-21T09:38:54 *** nowan has joined #bitcoin-dev
234 2015-12-21T09:41:36 *** bedeho has quit IRC
235 2015-12-21T09:42:58 *** coryfields_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
236 2015-12-21T09:43:02 *** Taek42 has joined #bitcoin-dev
237 2015-12-21T09:43:15 *** caktux_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
238 2015-12-21T09:44:08 *** lnovy_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
239 2015-12-21T09:44:42 *** p15 has quit IRC
240 2015-12-21T09:44:49 *** perrier____ has joined #bitcoin-dev
241 2015-12-21T09:45:01 *** Aexoden_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
242 2015-12-21T09:45:02 *** crescend1 has joined #bitcoin-dev
243 2015-12-21T09:45:05 *** neha_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
244 2015-12-21T09:45:06 *** pierre`_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
245 2015-12-21T09:45:10 *** Chojin_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
246 2015-12-21T09:45:11 *** warptangent_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
247 2015-12-21T09:45:13 *** Eliel_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
248 2015-12-21T09:45:19 *** chron0_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
249 2015-12-21T09:46:08 *** _fortis_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
250 2015-12-21T09:46:21 *** Tyklol has joined #bitcoin-dev
251 2015-12-21T09:48:17 *** ploopkazoo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
252 2015-12-21T09:48:29 *** tommygunner_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
253 2015-12-21T09:48:31 *** tkolsto has joined #bitcoin-dev
254 2015-12-21T09:48:38 *** Barbatos_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
255 2015-12-21T09:48:46 *** da2ce7_mobile_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
256 2015-12-21T09:48:46 *** Lightsword_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
257 2015-12-21T09:48:47 *** thurmyt3- has joined #bitcoin-dev
258 2015-12-21T09:48:48 *** lysobit- has joined #bitcoin-dev
259 2015-12-21T09:48:49 *** CodesInChaos has joined #bitcoin-dev
260 2015-12-21T09:48:58 *** humding3r has joined #bitcoin-dev
261 2015-12-21T09:49:04 *** tris- has joined #bitcoin-dev
262 2015-12-21T09:49:07 *** Kazz_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
263 2015-12-21T09:49:42 *** p15 has joined #bitcoin-dev
264 2015-12-21T09:49:55 *** caktux has quit IRC
265 2015-12-21T09:49:55 *** chron0 has quit IRC
266 2015-12-21T09:49:55 *** Lightsword has quit IRC
267 2015-12-21T09:49:55 *** _W_ has quit IRC
268 2015-12-21T09:49:55 *** ploopkazoo has quit IRC
269 2015-12-21T09:49:56 *** tommygunner has quit IRC
270 2015-12-21T09:49:56 *** lysobit has quit IRC
271 2015-12-21T09:49:56 *** perrier___ has quit IRC
272 2015-12-21T09:49:56 *** Taek has quit IRC
273 2015-12-21T09:49:57 *** warptangent has quit IRC
274 2015-12-21T09:49:57 *** da2ce7_mobile has quit IRC
275 2015-12-21T09:49:57 *** drazisil has quit IRC
276 2015-12-21T09:49:57 *** nkuttler has quit IRC
277 2015-12-21T09:49:58 *** lnovy has quit IRC
278 2015-12-21T09:49:58 *** neha has quit IRC
279 2015-12-21T09:49:58 *** Chojin has quit IRC
280 2015-12-21T09:49:58 *** Eliel has quit IRC
281 2015-12-21T09:49:59 *** _fortis has quit IRC
282 2015-12-21T09:49:59 *** pierre` has quit IRC
283 2015-12-21T09:50:00 *** humd1ng3r has quit IRC
284 2015-12-21T09:50:00 *** crescendo has quit IRC
285 2015-12-21T09:50:00 *** Kazzy has quit IRC
286 2015-12-21T09:50:01 *** tris has quit IRC
287 2015-12-21T09:50:01 *** thurmyt3 has quit IRC
288 2015-12-21T09:50:01 *** Aexoden has quit IRC
289 2015-12-21T09:50:01 *** coryfields has quit IRC
290 2015-12-21T09:50:01 *** pmx has quit IRC
291 2015-12-21T09:50:02 *** Barbatos has quit IRC
292 2015-12-21T09:50:02 *** Tykling has quit IRC
293 2015-12-21T09:50:02 *** teward has quit IRC
294 2015-12-21T09:50:02 *** Lightsword_ is now known as Lightsword
295 2015-12-21T09:50:03 *** thurmyt3- is now known as thurmyt3
296 2015-12-21T09:50:03 *** tkolsto is now known as pmx
297 2015-12-21T09:50:03 *** lysobit- is now known as lysobit
298 2015-12-21T09:50:03 *** lnovy_ is now known as lnovy
299 2015-12-21T09:50:04 *** caktux_ is now known as caktux
300 2015-12-21T09:51:05 *** tris- is now known as tris
301 2015-12-21T09:51:12 *** teward has joined #bitcoin-dev
302 2015-12-21T09:51:39 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
303 2015-12-21T09:51:51 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
304 2015-12-21T09:54:06 *** Madars has joined #bitcoin-dev
305 2015-12-21T09:55:43 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
306 2015-12-21T09:56:37 *** contrapumpkin has joined #bitcoin-dev
307 2015-12-21T09:57:59 *** instagibbs_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
308 2015-12-21T09:57:59 *** cypher has quit IRC
309 2015-12-21T09:58:01 *** joeykrim_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
310 2015-12-21T09:58:05 *** nickeeem has joined #bitcoin-dev
311 2015-12-21T09:58:06 *** cypher has joined #bitcoin-dev
312 2015-12-21T09:58:09 *** _W_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
313 2015-12-21T09:58:50 *** linagee_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
314 2015-12-21T09:59:00 *** xiangfu has quit IRC
315 2015-12-21T09:59:02 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
316 2015-12-21T10:00:05 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
317 2015-12-21T10:00:08 *** ak_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
318 2015-12-21T10:00:11 *** buZz_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
319 2015-12-21T10:01:11 *** Omni_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
320 2015-12-21T10:01:35 *** execute_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
321 2015-12-21T10:01:47 *** Michail1_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
322 2015-12-21T10:02:01 *** roconnor__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
323 2015-12-21T10:02:18 *** fredrin_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
324 2015-12-21T10:02:50 *** tkolsto has joined #bitcoin-dev
325 2015-12-21T10:03:15 *** sdaftuar_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
326 2015-12-21T10:03:28 *** missmogg1 has joined #bitcoin-dev
327 2015-12-21T10:04:01 *** CodesInChaos_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
328 2015-12-21T10:04:11 *** jayne_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
329 2015-12-21T10:04:20 *** roconnor_ has quit IRC
330 2015-12-21T10:05:25 *** sword_smith_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
331 2015-12-21T10:05:46 *** DrHaribo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
332 2015-12-21T10:05:51 *** kcud_dab has joined #bitcoin-dev
333 2015-12-21T10:06:07 *** clopez has quit IRC
334 2015-12-21T10:06:23 *** bsm1175321 has joined #bitcoin-dev
335 2015-12-21T10:06:49 *** berndj-blackout has joined #bitcoin-dev
336 2015-12-21T10:06:57 *** gribble has quit IRC
337 2015-12-21T10:07:08 *** ploopkazoo has joined #bitcoin-dev
338 2015-12-21T10:07:20 *** clopez_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
339 2015-12-21T10:07:26 *** cybrNaut has quit IRC
340 2015-12-21T10:08:11 *** _fortis_ is now known as _fortis
341 2015-12-21T10:09:15 *** jimbrr_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
342 2015-12-21T10:09:34 *** optimator has joined #bitcoin-dev
343 2015-12-21T10:09:34 *** optimator has joined #bitcoin-dev
344 2015-12-21T10:10:22 *** cybrNaut has joined #bitcoin-dev
345 2015-12-21T10:10:49 *** wrabbit has quit IRC
346 2015-12-21T10:10:57 *** wrabbit has joined #bitcoin-dev
347 2015-12-21T10:11:37 *** zxzzt_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
348 2015-12-21T10:12:08 *** CodesInChaos has quit IRC
349 2015-12-21T10:12:08 *** pmx has quit IRC
350 2015-12-21T10:12:08 *** ploopkazoo_ has quit IRC
351 2015-12-21T10:12:09 *** waxwing has quit IRC
352 2015-12-21T10:12:09 *** cryptapus__ has quit IRC
353 2015-12-21T10:12:09 *** copumpkin has quit IRC
354 2015-12-21T10:12:09 *** chjj has quit IRC
355 2015-12-21T10:12:09 *** koad has quit IRC
356 2015-12-21T10:12:10 *** instagibbs has quit IRC
357 2015-12-21T10:12:10 *** mountaingoat has quit IRC
358 2015-12-21T10:12:10 *** Yoghur114 has quit IRC
359 2015-12-21T10:12:10 *** sinetek has quit IRC
360 2015-12-21T10:12:11 *** donpillou has quit IRC
361 2015-12-21T10:12:11 *** sword_smith has quit IRC
362 2015-12-21T10:12:11 *** KrellanWk has quit IRC
363 2015-12-21T10:12:12 *** ttttemp_ has quit IRC
364 2015-12-21T10:12:12 *** jrick has quit IRC
365 2015-12-21T10:12:12 *** Guest58454 has quit IRC
366 2015-12-21T10:12:12 *** pooler has quit IRC
367 2015-12-21T10:12:12 *** jayne has quit IRC
368 2015-12-21T10:12:13 *** joeykrim has quit IRC
369 2015-12-21T10:12:13 *** Guest44668 has quit IRC
370 2015-12-21T10:12:13 *** fredrin has quit IRC
371 2015-12-21T10:12:14 *** brand0 has quit IRC
372 2015-12-21T10:12:14 *** bad_duck has quit IRC
373 2015-12-21T10:12:14 *** DrHaribo has quit IRC
374 2015-12-21T10:12:15 *** jimbrr has quit IRC
375 2015-12-21T10:12:15 *** buZz has quit IRC
376 2015-12-21T10:12:15 *** optimator_ has quit IRC
377 2015-12-21T10:12:15 *** nickeem has quit IRC
378 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** zxzzt has quit IRC
379 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** sdaftuar has quit IRC
380 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** missmogg has quit IRC
381 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** execute has quit IRC
382 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** bsm117532 has quit IRC
383 2015-12-21T10:12:16 *** berndj has quit IRC
384 2015-12-21T10:12:17 *** Graet has quit IRC
385 2015-12-21T10:12:17 *** akstunt600 has quit IRC
386 2015-12-21T10:12:17 *** hbee has quit IRC
387 2015-12-21T10:12:17 *** linagee has quit IRC
388 2015-12-21T10:12:17 *** Michail1 has quit IRC
389 2015-12-21T10:12:18 *** WaywardSon has quit IRC
390 2015-12-21T10:12:18 *** tkolsto is now known as pmx
391 2015-12-21T10:12:18 *** Michail1_ is now known as Michail1
392 2015-12-21T10:12:44 *** brand0 has joined #bitcoin-dev
393 2015-12-21T10:13:25 *** jrick has joined #bitcoin-dev
394 2015-12-21T10:14:04 *** mpr has joined #bitcoin-dev
395 2015-12-21T10:14:27 *** mpr is now known as Guest4310
396 2015-12-21T10:14:52 *** waxwing has joined #bitcoin-dev
397 2015-12-21T10:15:38 *** kcud_dab is now known as bad_duck
398 2015-12-21T10:15:39 *** Chojin_ is now known as Chojin
399 2015-12-21T10:16:31 *** hbee has joined #bitcoin-dev
400 2015-12-21T10:16:53 *** Yoghur114 has joined #bitcoin-dev
401 2015-12-21T10:19:00 *** Raccoon has joined #bitcoin-dev
402 2015-12-21T10:20:17 *** gribble has joined #bitcoin-dev
403 2015-12-21T10:20:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o gribble
404 2015-12-21T10:20:31 *** koad has joined #bitcoin-dev
405 2015-12-21T10:21:57 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
406 2015-12-21T10:24:26 *** Amnez777 has quit IRC
407 2015-12-21T10:24:45 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
408 2015-12-21T10:24:46 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
409 2015-12-21T10:26:18 *** metaphysics has joined #bitcoin-dev
410 2015-12-21T10:26:35 *** Amnez777 has joined #bitcoin-dev
411 2015-12-21T10:30:11 *** Madars has quit IRC
412 2015-12-21T10:31:44 *** DrHaribo_ is now known as DrHaribo
413 2015-12-21T10:32:02 *** DrHaribo has joined #bitcoin-dev
414 2015-12-21T10:37:38 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
415 2015-12-21T10:40:57 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
416 2015-12-21T10:42:03 *** metalcamp has quit IRC
417 2015-12-21T10:42:15 *** mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-dev
418 2015-12-21T10:46:29 *** xss has quit IRC
419 2015-12-21T10:47:59 *** chjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
420 2015-12-21T10:48:24 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
421 2015-12-21T10:49:30 *** buZz_ is now known as buZz
422 2015-12-21T10:49:59 *** bedeho has joined #bitcoin-dev
423 2015-12-21T10:52:36 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
424 2015-12-21T10:54:19 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
425 2015-12-21T10:57:35 *** melvster has quit IRC
426 2015-12-21T11:04:36 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
427 2015-12-21T11:05:46 *** matsjj has quit IRC
428 2015-12-21T11:05:55 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
429 2015-12-21T11:06:01 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
430 2015-12-21T11:06:51 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
431 2015-12-21T11:11:13 *** melvster has joined #bitcoin-dev
432 2015-12-21T11:11:53 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
433 2015-12-21T11:21:42 *** GAit has quit IRC
434 2015-12-21T11:23:22 *** Luke-Jr has quit IRC
435 2015-12-21T11:23:47 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
436 2015-12-21T11:23:59 *** Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-dev
437 2015-12-21T11:24:35 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
438 2015-12-21T11:29:03 *** Palsson has quit IRC
439 2015-12-21T11:29:03 *** Luke-Jr has quit IRC
440 2015-12-21T11:29:36 *** Luke-Jr has joined #bitcoin-dev
441 2015-12-21T11:35:12 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
442 2015-12-21T11:36:50 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
443 2015-12-21T11:38:45 *** nkuttler has joined #bitcoin-dev
444 2015-12-21T11:43:11 *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
445 2015-12-21T11:43:11 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
446 2015-12-21T11:48:39 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
447 2015-12-21T11:49:16 *** Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-dev
448 2015-12-21T11:50:57 *** GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-dev
449 2015-12-21T11:52:09 *** drazisil has joined #bitcoin-dev
450 2015-12-21T11:52:09 *** drazisil has joined #bitcoin-dev
451 2015-12-21T11:52:11 <MarcoPon> btcdrak: I believe that's what I have done. I first wrote the text on the bitcoin-dev mailing list, gathered feedback, etc. Later I compiled a BIP in the proper format, with the BIP-nickname format I have seen recommended on the ML by Greg, created the pull, fixed/modified somethings with Luke-Jr & jtimon assistance. The pull is there with the "Need number assignment" flag. https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/202
452 2015-12-21T11:52:11 *** p15 has quit IRC
453 2015-12-21T11:54:09 <jtimon> yes, it was discussed first in the mailing list and then also in the PR, it needs a BIP number
454 2015-12-21T11:54:35 *** Dizzle has quit IRC
455 2015-12-21T11:55:31 <btcdrak> MarcoPon: send a PM to gmaxwell with a link to the PR
456 2015-12-21T11:56:15 <MarcoPon> btcdrak: OK, will do. Thanks!
457 2015-12-21T12:01:30 *** moa has quit IRC
458 2015-12-21T12:03:25 *** Beef has quit IRC
459 2015-12-21T12:08:05 *** Beef has joined #bitcoin-dev
460 2015-12-21T12:09:05 *** donpillou has joined #bitcoin-dev
461 2015-12-21T12:12:18 *** GAit has quit IRC
462 2015-12-21T12:14:05 *** KrellanWk has joined #bitcoin-dev
463 2015-12-21T12:15:42 *** one_zero has quit IRC
464 2015-12-21T12:20:52 *** won9 has quit IRC
465 2015-12-21T12:23:43 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
466 2015-12-21T12:25:53 *** blackjid has quit IRC
467 2015-12-21T12:26:31 *** blackjid has joined #bitcoin-dev
468 2015-12-21T12:27:49 *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-dev
469 2015-12-21T12:28:37 *** GGuyZ has quit IRC
470 2015-12-21T12:32:15 *** Internet13 has quit IRC
471 2015-12-21T12:36:27 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
472 2015-12-21T12:36:40 *** matsjj has quit IRC
473 2015-12-21T12:37:08 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
474 2015-12-21T12:39:17 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-dev
475 2015-12-21T12:39:53 *** Tyklol is now known as Tykling
476 2015-12-21T12:43:45 *** Internet13 has joined #bitcoin-dev
477 2015-12-21T12:45:45 *** vmatekol_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
478 2015-12-21T12:47:11 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
479 2015-12-21T12:50:59 *** matsjj_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
480 2015-12-21T12:53:30 *** matsjj has quit IRC
481 2015-12-21T12:55:07 *** vmatekol_ has quit IRC
482 2015-12-21T12:57:10 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
483 2015-12-21T12:57:54 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
484 2015-12-21T13:05:00 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
485 2015-12-21T13:08:34 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
486 2015-12-21T13:11:14 *** laurentmt1 has joined #bitcoin-dev
487 2015-12-21T13:12:05 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
488 2015-12-21T13:12:05 *** laurentmt1 is now known as laurentmt
489 2015-12-21T13:15:30 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
490 2015-12-21T13:16:25 *** vmatekol_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
491 2015-12-21T13:20:12 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
492 2015-12-21T13:20:42 *** Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-dev
493 2015-12-21T13:22:30 *** jimbrr_ is now known as jimbrr
494 2015-12-21T13:23:29 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
495 2015-12-21T13:25:34 *** iv3c has quit IRC
496 2015-12-21T13:30:36 *** GAit has quit IRC
497 2015-12-21T13:31:58 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
498 2015-12-21T13:33:24 *** nowan has quit IRC
499 2015-12-21T13:34:42 *** iv3c has joined #bitcoin-dev
500 2015-12-21T13:35:41 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
501 2015-12-21T13:36:15 *** nowan has joined #bitcoin-dev
502 2015-12-21T13:36:34 *** GAit has quit IRC
503 2015-12-21T13:36:44 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
504 2015-12-21T13:38:28 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
505 2015-12-21T13:52:17 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
506 2015-12-21T13:57:12 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
507 2015-12-21T14:04:00 *** nickler has quit IRC
508 2015-12-21T14:04:47 *** nickler has joined #bitcoin-dev
509 2015-12-21T14:04:50 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
510 2015-12-21T14:08:40 *** roconnor__ has quit IRC
511 2015-12-21T14:08:57 *** rdbell has quit IRC
512 2015-12-21T14:11:56 *** tantalum has joined #bitcoin-dev
513 2015-12-21T14:13:11 *** tantalum has quit IRC
514 2015-12-21T14:13:56 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
515 2015-12-21T14:15:29 *** Belxjander has quit IRC
516 2015-12-21T14:17:59 *** tantalum has joined #bitcoin-dev
517 2015-12-21T14:19:33 *** hashtag_ has quit IRC
518 2015-12-21T14:19:50 *** Belxjander has joined #bitcoin-dev
519 2015-12-21T14:21:59 *** damethos has quit IRC
520 2015-12-21T14:23:13 *** jrklein has joined #bitcoin-dev
521 2015-12-21T14:24:26 *** Belxjander has quit IRC
522 2015-12-21T14:25:08 *** melvster has quit IRC
523 2015-12-21T14:26:47 *** Belxjander has joined #bitcoin-dev
524 2015-12-21T14:28:10 *** circuspeanut has joined #bitcoin-dev
525 2015-12-21T14:30:14 *** dave4925 has joined #bitcoin-dev
526 2015-12-21T14:31:47 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC
527 2015-12-21T14:32:48 *** CheckDavid has joined #bitcoin-dev
528 2015-12-21T14:32:50 *** GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-dev
529 2015-12-21T14:34:03 *** Palsson has quit IRC
530 2015-12-21T14:38:06 *** melvster has joined #bitcoin-dev
531 2015-12-21T14:42:05 *** Diablo-D3 has quit IRC
532 2015-12-21T14:46:16 *** AngryAgain_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
533 2015-12-21T14:47:12 *** dave4925 has quit IRC
534 2015-12-21T14:47:35 *** AngryAgain_ has left #bitcoin-dev
535 2015-12-21T14:48:01 *** Burrito has joined #bitcoin-dev
536 2015-12-21T14:49:55 *** StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-dev
537 2015-12-21T14:53:05 *** Tera2342 has quit IRC
538 2015-12-21T14:53:19 *** dipk has quit IRC
539 2015-12-21T14:55:47 *** contrapumpkin is now known as copumpkin
540 2015-12-21T14:57:48 *** Omni_ has quit IRC
541 2015-12-21T15:00:07 *** Omni_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
542 2015-12-21T15:01:15 *** TheSeven has quit IRC
543 2015-12-21T15:01:47 <jl2012> sipa: to prepare for segwit, should we now make redeemscript with a single push non-standard?
544 2015-12-21T15:02:16 *** wraithm has joined #bitcoin-dev
545 2015-12-21T15:02:37 *** TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-dev
546 2015-12-21T15:07:05 *** Madars has joined #bitcoin-dev
547 2015-12-21T15:09:30 *** ttttemp_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
548 2015-12-21T15:10:08 *** instagibbs_ is now known as instagibbs
549 2015-12-21T15:13:52 *** xegoo has quit IRC
550 2015-12-21T15:16:16 *** xegoo has joined #bitcoin-dev
551 2015-12-21T15:16:51 *** xegoo has quit IRC
552 2015-12-21T15:20:11 *** xegoo has joined #bitcoin-dev
553 2015-12-21T15:20:25 *** n0n0 has joined #bitcoin-dev
554 2015-12-21T15:20:30 *** xegoo has quit IRC
555 2015-12-21T15:22:39 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
556 2015-12-21T15:23:20 *** xegoo has joined #bitcoin-dev
557 2015-12-21T15:24:40 *** DougieBot5000 has joined #bitcoin-dev
558 2015-12-21T15:25:41 *** vmatekol_ has quit IRC
559 2015-12-21T15:30:15 *** Diablo-D3 has joined #bitcoin-dev
560 2015-12-21T15:32:32 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
561 2015-12-21T15:34:54 *** tcatm has left #bitcoin-dev
562 2015-12-21T15:36:19 *** zookolap` has joined #bitcoin-dev
563 2015-12-21T15:37:27 *** zookolap` is now known as zooko
564 2015-12-21T15:38:20 *** zookolaptop has quit IRC
565 2015-12-21T15:38:30 *** Madars has quit IRC
566 2015-12-21T15:47:52 *** Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-dev
567 2015-12-21T15:51:33 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
568 2015-12-21T15:54:11 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
569 2015-12-21T15:54:35 *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
570 2015-12-21T15:55:33 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
571 2015-12-21T15:59:59 *** Ahmed90 has quit IRC
572 2015-12-21T16:03:15 *** brg444 has joined #bitcoin-dev
573 2015-12-21T16:03:39 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
574 2015-12-21T16:07:44 *** sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
575 2015-12-21T16:07:48 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
576 2015-12-21T16:08:15 *** melvster has quit IRC
577 2015-12-21T16:11:01 *** nelisky has quit IRC
578 2015-12-21T16:11:34 *** nelisky has joined #bitcoin-dev
579 2015-12-21T16:13:15 <Quent1> wumpus are you going to merge https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7219 ?
580 2015-12-21T16:13:20 *** kadoban has joined #bitcoin-dev
581 2015-12-21T16:16:37 *** gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-dev
582 2015-12-21T16:21:51 *** melvster has joined #bitcoin-dev
583 2015-12-21T16:23:25 *** nelisky has quit IRC
584 2015-12-21T16:23:57 *** BashCo_ has quit IRC
585 2015-12-21T16:26:06 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
586 2015-12-21T16:31:40 *** Dizzle has quit IRC
587 2015-12-21T16:33:35 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
588 2015-12-21T16:33:37 *** Grouver has quit IRC
589 2015-12-21T16:33:45 *** mjerr has joined #bitcoin-dev
590 2015-12-21T16:34:41 *** nelisky has joined #bitcoin-dev
591 2015-12-21T16:40:01 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
592 2015-12-21T16:41:12 *** Ahmed90 has joined #bitcoin-dev
593 2015-12-21T16:44:19 *** mjerr has quit IRC
594 2015-12-21T16:50:20 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
595 2015-12-21T16:50:32 *** Belxjander has quit IRC
596 2015-12-21T16:53:59 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
597 2015-12-21T16:54:17 *** Belxjander has joined #bitcoin-dev
598 2015-12-21T16:56:00 *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-dev
599 2015-12-21T16:57:28 *** BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
600 2015-12-21T16:57:57 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
601 2015-12-21T16:59:25 *** Yoghur114_2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
602 2015-12-21T17:00:18 *** BashCo has quit IRC
603 2015-12-21T17:01:29 *** eki5bvu7njh has joined #bitcoin-dev
604 2015-12-21T17:01:56 *** clopez_ has quit IRC
605 2015-12-21T17:03:57 *** LeMiner2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
606 2015-12-21T17:04:33 *** Emzy has joined #bitcoin-dev
607 2015-12-21T17:04:47 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
608 2015-12-21T17:07:26 *** LeMiner has quit IRC
609 2015-12-21T17:07:26 *** LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner
610 2015-12-21T17:07:41 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
611 2015-12-21T17:09:35 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
612 2015-12-21T17:11:12 *** chmod755 has quit IRC
613 2015-12-21T17:14:34 *** paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-dev
614 2015-12-21T17:14:35 *** paveljanik has quit IRC
615 2015-12-21T17:14:35 *** paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-dev
616 2015-12-21T17:14:55 *** jtoomim has quit IRC
617 2015-12-21T17:16:11 *** bschumacher has joined #bitcoin-dev
618 2015-12-21T17:17:24 *** bschumacher has left #bitcoin-dev
619 2015-12-21T17:19:15 *** iv3c has quit IRC
620 2015-12-21T17:23:39 *** clopez has joined #bitcoin-dev
621 2015-12-21T17:23:44 *** StephenM347 has quit IRC
622 2015-12-21T17:25:08 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-dev
623 2015-12-21T17:25:39 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
624 2015-12-21T17:28:32 *** hsdje4b has joined #bitcoin-dev
625 2015-12-21T17:28:43 *** StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-dev
626 2015-12-21T17:29:12 *** hsdje4b has quit IRC
627 2015-12-21T17:30:36 *** eki5bvu7njh has quit IRC
628 2015-12-21T17:33:55 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
629 2015-12-21T17:34:36 *** neozaru has joined #bitcoin-dev
630 2015-12-21T17:37:51 *** neozaru_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
631 2015-12-21T17:39:19 *** neozaru has quit IRC
632 2015-12-21T17:41:09 *** rnvk has quit IRC
633 2015-12-21T17:41:40 *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
634 2015-12-21T17:45:06 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
635 2015-12-21T17:47:29 *** GAit has quit IRC
636 2015-12-21T17:50:27 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC
637 2015-12-21T17:55:46 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
638 2015-12-21T17:56:44 *** t7 has joined #bitcoin-dev
639 2015-12-21T17:59:10 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
640 2015-12-21T18:01:38 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
641 2015-12-21T18:02:15 *** IngCr3at1on has joined #bitcoin-dev
642 2015-12-21T18:02:16 *** digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
643 2015-12-21T18:02:51 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
644 2015-12-21T18:03:07 *** digitalmagus has quit IRC
645 2015-12-21T18:03:32 *** d_t has joined #bitcoin-dev
646 2015-12-21T18:03:35 *** d_t has quit IRC
647 2015-12-21T18:04:12 *** d_t has joined #bitcoin-dev
648 2015-12-21T18:04:16 *** zooko has quit IRC
649 2015-12-21T18:04:23 *** Belxjander has quit IRC
650 2015-12-21T18:06:13 *** Belxjander has joined #bitcoin-dev
651 2015-12-21T18:06:49 *** digitalmagus has joined #bitcoin-dev
652 2015-12-21T18:06:50 *** digitalmagus8 has quit IRC
653 2015-12-21T18:07:49 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
654 2015-12-21T18:19:06 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
655 2015-12-21T18:20:30 *** bendavenport has joined #bitcoin-dev
656 2015-12-21T18:21:07 *** GAit has quit IRC
657 2015-12-21T18:21:58 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
658 2015-12-21T18:28:57 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
659 2015-12-21T18:31:00 *** REiN has quit IRC
660 2015-12-21T18:31:23 *** REiN has joined #bitcoin-dev
661 2015-12-21T18:39:04 *** berndj-blackout is now known as berndj
662 2015-12-21T18:41:20 <Iriez> Were any of the core dev's approached by the linux foundation to partner for their blockchain initiative? I see IBM and R3 have both agreed to submit their codebase, which is pretty darn cool.
663 2015-12-21T18:44:42 *** mrkent has joined #bitcoin-dev
664 2015-12-21T18:44:46 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
665 2015-12-21T18:46:34 <mrkent> Does anyone know how this works? https://webbtc.com/script/4a5b82bd3a390aa58a17e346a79c61db3ab4ab6a0653f66490abfe29387fd95f:5
666 2015-12-21T18:47:12 <sipa> Iriez: i was not
667 2015-12-21T18:47:24 *** Emzy has quit IRC
668 2015-12-21T18:54:42 <jgarzik> Iriez, no
669 2015-12-21T18:54:57 <jgarzik> Iriez, it is R3 trying to jump over bitcoin, be "more open source"
670 2015-12-21T18:55:32 *** matsjj_ has quit IRC
671 2015-12-21T18:55:42 *** RoboTeddy has joined #bitcoin-dev
672 2015-12-21T18:56:28 *** matsjj has joined #bitcoin-dev
673 2015-12-21T18:56:36 *** treehug88 has joined #bitcoin-dev
674 2015-12-21T18:57:09 <jgarzik> Iriez, R3 marketing is jumped out of the gate very early trying to marginalize bitcoin as "cypherpunks not wanting to interface with banks or governments" http://www.ofnumbers.com/2015/09/29/designing-a-global-fabric-for-finance-g3f/
675 2015-12-21T18:59:53 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
676 2015-12-21T19:01:30 *** Madars has joined #bitcoin-dev
677 2015-12-21T19:04:08 <netg> was to be expected
678 2015-12-21T19:04:46 *** JackH has quit IRC
679 2015-12-21T19:06:34 *** moa has joined #bitcoin-dev
680 2015-12-21T19:07:52 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
681 2015-12-21T19:08:21 *** jcorgan|away is now known as jcorgan
682 2015-12-21T19:08:29 *** Quent1 is now known as Quent
683 2015-12-21T19:14:32 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
684 2015-12-21T19:17:28 *** vmatekol_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
685 2015-12-21T19:19:21 *** t7 has quit IRC
686 2015-12-21T19:20:36 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
687 2015-12-21T19:21:27 *** Emzy has joined #bitcoin-dev
688 2015-12-21T19:21:42 *** zookolaptop has joined #bitcoin-dev
689 2015-12-21T19:26:01 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
690 2015-12-21T19:27:32 *** Ahmed90 has quit IRC
691 2015-12-21T19:30:10 *** jtimon has quit IRC
692 2015-12-21T19:36:08 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
693 2015-12-21T19:39:16 *** CheckDavid has quit IRC
694 2015-12-21T19:39:20 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
695 2015-12-21T19:41:07 *** Madars has quit IRC
696 2015-12-21T19:46:46 <Iriez> jgarzik: thank you for the response and I see your post on reddit too :)
697 2015-12-21T19:47:09 <Iriez> Sipa: When you say "but I can only agree with merging it in Core if I'm convinced that there is no strong opposition to it from others.", could you please explain how you measure opposition? Im curious what consensus measuring mechanisms exist right now and how you utilize them to determine the level of consensus or opposition on issues.
698 2015-12-21T19:47:15 *** kermit has quit IRC
699 2015-12-21T19:47:29 *** agricocb has quit IRC
700 2015-12-21T19:47:38 <sipa> Iriez: i'd say months of discussion are a sign that it's a controversial subject at least
701 2015-12-21T19:48:05 <sipa> i don't think there exist formal ways of measuring it, but it's in the best interest of the maintainers of software to make that judgement call
702 2015-12-21T19:48:14 <Iriez> sipa: While I would agree with your logic, that unfortunately does not provide transparency to the users.
703 2015-12-21T19:48:25 <sipa> to not force a potentially divisive choice on the economy
704 2015-12-21T19:48:52 <Iriez> I was thinking that there needs to be more clear metrics that can be analyzed by the public/users, so that we can leverage 'real' consensus as opposed to perception based on individuals.
705 2015-12-21T19:48:56 <sipa> in my view, we should never assume a hardfork can succeed... it can be proposed, but we need an extremely high bar of consensus to adopt it into software
706 2015-12-21T19:49:24 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
707 2015-12-21T19:49:33 <adam3us> Iriez: this is good http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-October/011457.html
708 2015-12-21T19:50:06 <adam3us> Iriez: and this https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
709 2015-12-21T19:50:21 <Iriez> sipa: Has there been a recent vote amongst maintainers of the software regarding a blocksize upgrade? It seems to me that most are in favor now, but its difficult to determine without a specific vote taken.
710 2015-12-21T19:50:32 <Iriez> adam3us: I've read those posts and can only agree with their contents.
711 2015-12-21T19:50:40 *** rdbell has quit IRC
712 2015-12-21T19:50:45 <adam3us> Iriez: and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0001
713 2015-12-21T19:50:48 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
714 2015-12-21T19:50:57 <Iriez> However I would like to be more specific on this issue since there is a large disconnect between developers and community members.
715 2015-12-21T19:51:11 <Iriez> If I could only fit my brain inside your guys brains for 5 minutes... :)
716 2015-12-21T19:51:23 <adam3us> Iriez: the IETF post was pretty long and interesting on consensus process
717 2015-12-21T19:51:45 <sipa> Iriez: we can't force people what software to run; we can choose what software we find worthwhile working on
718 2015-12-21T19:51:52 <Iriez> adam3us: I know, I read it when it was posted a few months back, and I loved it when I read it.
719 2015-12-21T19:52:05 <Iriez> sipa: I am not trying to debate any theory with you, only asking about metrics and how they are measured.
720 2015-12-21T19:52:18 <Iriez> I understand your position quite clearly, I read the devlists daily :)
721 2015-12-21T19:52:23 <sipa> ok!
722 2015-12-21T19:52:38 <Iriez> Has there been a recent vote amongst maintainers of the software regarding a blocksize upgrade? It seems to me that most are in favor now, but its difficult to determine without a specific vote taken.
723 2015-12-21T19:52:56 <Iriez> I am just curious what the current stance is amongst the maintainers, aside from yourself.
724 2015-12-21T19:53:04 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
725 2015-12-21T19:53:05 <sipa> i think a majority are in favor of following greg maxwell's capacity increase plan now
726 2015-12-21T19:53:36 *** akrmn has quit IRC
727 2015-12-21T19:54:18 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
728 2015-12-21T19:54:48 *** CubicEar_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
729 2015-12-21T19:55:12 <Iriez> Thank you for clarification on the issue. What I see too much is dissent regarding idea's, but not often enough the voicing of consensus on current approaches. This makes it appear to a outside user that there is disarray in the project, when instead there is just more noise than signal.
730 2015-12-21T19:55:27 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
731 2015-12-21T19:56:05 <sipa> Iriez: agree!
732 2015-12-21T19:56:06 <adam3us> Iriez: that is an astute observation. symptom of "someones wrong on the internet" effect where debate triggers more debate. but saying "great i agree" is something that doesnt trigger as quick a reaction
733 2015-12-21T19:56:18 <morcos> Iriez: there is very strong agreement on following the plan laid out in greg's email and not a HF at this point
734 2015-12-21T19:57:34 *** Palsson has joined #bitcoin-dev
735 2015-12-21T19:58:01 *** rdbell has quit IRC
736 2015-12-21T19:58:28 *** chmod755 has joined #bitcoin-dev
737 2015-12-21T19:58:33 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
738 2015-12-21T19:58:35 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
739 2015-12-21T19:59:28 <jgarzik> Unfortunately that is not the whole story. A subset of dev consensus considers bitcoin's current economics not "healthy" and wishes to change bitcoin to a new economic policy that has "healthy" block space competition. This economic policy change has not been proposed as a BIP - instead you merely need inaction on core block size to accomplish the shift in economy to what dev consensus considers "healthy"
740 2015-12-21T19:59:48 *** rolandnsharp has quit IRC
741 2015-12-21T19:59:53 <jgarzik> This new economic state is under-studied, and the ideas for how hard limits should behave in this new system are barely off the white board
742 2015-12-21T19:59:58 *** rolandnsharp has joined #bitcoin-dev
743 2015-12-21T20:00:29 <jgarzik> Sticking-with-1M core block size sharpens several existential risks
744 2015-12-21T20:00:33 <adam3us> jgarzik: the roadmap is not inaction and proposes the same size increase ~2MB as BIP 102.
745 2015-12-21T20:00:47 <jgarzik> adam3us, false - roadmap does not change core block size
746 2015-12-21T20:00:49 <adam3us> jgarzik: obviously modulo deployment speed and uptake by wallets
747 2015-12-21T20:01:28 <adam3us> jgarzik: the effective block size and scale and scalability is what matters to users.
748 2015-12-21T20:01:58 <jgarzik> core block size is the most economically constrained resource - it fills up at a faster rate
749 2015-12-21T20:02:06 <morcos> jgarzik: I think we can agree there are areas of communication that need to be improved. Core needs a more permanent mission statement of values and principles or something.
750 2015-12-21T20:02:55 <jgarzik> morcos, if sticking-with-1M is the direction, it is at a minimum reasonable to (a) communicate that plan to users, and (b) alert them of the desire to change bitcoin's economics
751 2015-12-21T20:04:43 <adam3us> jgarzik: you are making assumptions that you are not stating. factors include how quickly can a HF deploy & be activated vs a soft-fork, how much testing & dev time needed for each (both need work) and how quickly will wallets and companies upgrade. i think on balance the SW approach is better.
752 2015-12-21T20:05:26 <adam3us> jgarzik: the change economics call is in question because that depends on your assumptions of the above factors.
753 2015-12-21T20:06:09 <brg444> jgarzik I presume an alternative involving a increase in the blocksize would include a similar statement to "alert users that Core has chosen to continue subsidize transactions" ?
754 2015-12-21T20:06:36 <Iriez> As a user, I must state that jgarzik has a valid point in that everyone is absolutely confused on what the actual plan is. For example, you have all stated rough consensus on gmaxwell's proposal, which if I am not mistaken states "I propose we work immediately towards the segwit 4MB block soft-fork which increases capacity and scalability". To the layman, this sounds like you are going
755 2015-12-21T20:06:36 <Iriez> to HF to a 4mb cap. Yet, it seems to me that what is really being said is "we wish to SF to SW which will give bitcoin a similar capacity increase as to be compared to a 4mb blocksize cap", which means no increase to the blocksize. Am I correct about the proposals intentions?
756 2015-12-21T20:07:22 <sipa> i can agree with the argument that a hard fork is needed when there is an imminent threat that could hurt bitcoin's long term surival before its ecosystem can adapt to a limited block space behaviour
757 2015-12-21T20:07:49 <sipa> but jgarzik makes it sound like the reason for a hard fork is avoiding economic change itself
758 2015-12-21T20:08:17 <sipa> i don't think that sustainable and certainly a bad precedent
759 2015-12-21T20:08:55 <adam3us> Iriez: do you agree that scale and scalability and time to availability of that scale is the primary objective?
760 2015-12-21T20:09:35 <Iriez> adam3us: Absolutely. Yet I would like confirmation on the proposal's intentions since at its current wording its very murky.
761 2015-12-21T20:09:35 <sipa> Iriez: it's approximately a 2x capacity increase (though it depends on the use case)
762 2015-12-21T20:09:49 <sipa> Iriez: that needs clarification then!
763 2015-12-21T20:09:58 <brg444> sipa I agree. We'd be left with a FED type situation where everyone is left wondering whether the next more is a rate increase or decrease. Central bank 2.0...
764 2015-12-21T20:10:04 <brg444> next move*
765 2015-12-21T20:10:17 <Iriez> sipa: Please understand I have watched your talk and read all of the devlist posts, I fully understand the intended capacity increase proposal with SW. But most users do not.
766 2015-12-21T20:10:22 <adam3us> Iriez: yes the roadmap is proposing a soft-fork first. better doco needed.
767 2015-12-21T20:11:30 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
768 2015-12-21T20:12:01 <Iriez> To layman, that is still not enough for understanding. I think it needs to be states also that the 1mb limit will remain the same. As a techophile/bitcoiner, I understand that when you say you intend to SF first, that means to leave the cap as is as that will require a hardfork to raise the limit. However the average user probably does not understand that. In this, I agree with garzik's
769 2015-12-21T20:12:01 <Iriez> statement that users need to be communicated with regarding the stance.
770 2015-12-21T20:12:21 <Iriez> stated* (states lol)
771 2015-12-21T20:12:55 *** silvaedium has joined #bitcoin-dev
772 2015-12-21T20:13:00 <sipa> i think what needs to be communicated is that bitcoin core is a software project, and that its vision for bitcoin includes not deciding what its consensus rules are
773 2015-12-21T20:13:05 <zookolaptop> It can be hard for devs, scientists, etc. to understand that the problem isn't the facts or the technical plans, the problem is the communication to the public.
774 2015-12-21T20:13:17 <sipa> this may result in economic changes, but those are already happening
775 2015-12-21T20:13:36 <Iriez> sipa: You do understand that currently you and the core dev's are holding the reins, right?
776 2015-12-21T20:13:50 <sipa> Iriez: i am sure i have influence
777 2015-12-21T20:13:56 <sipa> i hope i am not in control
778 2015-12-21T20:13:59 * silvaedium santas
779 2015-12-21T20:14:06 <zookolaptop> sigh
780 2015-12-21T20:14:44 <Iriez> We can discuss theory of the power of the users, etc. But if miners have delegated their power to you to make decisions, as they stated at HK, then it does appear that the core maintainers right now have a large pool of the power when it comes to decisions on direction of the project
781 2015-12-21T20:15:01 <zookolaptop> There's a conflation happening between "I/we oppose a certain change because I/we think it wouldn't be a good idea technically" and "I/we have no authority or right to make changes".
782 2015-12-21T20:15:05 <zookolaptop> Those are entirely different.
783 2015-12-21T20:15:14 <silvaedium> The core maintainers and the core devs have all of the power. Ins't that the meaning of the word "core"?
784 2015-12-21T20:15:20 *** xss has quit IRC
785 2015-12-21T20:15:29 <silvaedium> It all depends on what the goal of Bitcoin is
786 2015-12-21T20:15:35 <Iriez> I think whats important here is to recognize that. To understand that despite your philosophy, that the current situation is unevenly distributed when it comes to power.
787 2015-12-21T20:15:37 <morcos> Iriez: Well luckily there is a very large group of developers who are all in broad agreement. We just need to communicate it better ala zooko's laptop
788 2015-12-21T20:15:51 <Iriez> morcos: I agree with this statement :)
789 2015-12-21T20:15:55 <silvaedium> Both parties, the party who thinks technically, and the party that thinks authoritiarianly, should both have a concencus towards bitcoins overall goal
790 2015-12-21T20:16:09 <silvaedium> That way they can "mesh" better.
791 2015-12-21T20:16:36 <adam3us> Iriez: coders are not always awesome doco writers. i expect help would not be turned down in that area (hint)!
792 2015-12-21T20:17:08 <adam3us> Iriez: your feedback on the lack of clarity is useful to motivate people to improve it.
793 2015-12-21T20:17:13 *** Emzy has quit IRC
794 2015-12-21T20:17:23 <Iriez> sipa: I think we can both agree that having too much power granted to the maintainers is a problem. I agree with your philosophy in regards to this, and would also agree that too much consolidated power will mean that bitcoin has failed.
795 2015-12-21T20:17:23 *** erasmospunk has joined #bitcoin-dev
796 2015-12-21T20:17:42 <sipa> Iriez: yes...
797 2015-12-21T20:18:08 *** krog has joined #bitcoin-dev
798 2015-12-21T20:18:20 <zookolaptop> The confusion that is happening is that a lot of users, and >= 90% of all the mining power, are waiting on "the core devs" to make decisions, and, IIUC, the core devs (or at least some of them!?) think that they don't have that right or responsibility.
799 2015-12-21T20:18:40 <Iriez> But in order to correct a issue, we must first recognize the reality so that we can seek to correct corse. Right now the majority of miners have said "We want the core dev's to figure it out". Between the core dev's and the miners, I would state that is the majority of decision making power. Users have a economic incentive to listen to both parties to make the best decision
800 2015-12-21T20:18:46 <zookolaptop> And jgarzik is eloquently pointing out that if you do have that right and responsibility, then not making a decision is making a decision.
801 2015-12-21T20:18:48 <Iriez> haha, me and zooko are typing the same things.
802 2015-12-21T20:19:02 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
803 2015-12-21T20:19:35 <zookolaptop> So, if you're one of "the core devs" -- whoever that is -- and you think that you don't have the right or responsibility to make modifications to the Bitcoin consensus algorithm,
804 2015-12-21T20:19:50 *** CubicEar_ has quit IRC
805 2015-12-21T20:19:55 <zookolaptop> then I claim that you now have the right and responsibility to explain that to the users and miners, who are waiting for you to exercise it.
806 2015-12-21T20:20:17 <sipa> zookolaptop: agree!
807 2015-12-21T20:20:22 <Iriez> Double agree.
808 2015-12-21T20:20:24 <adam3us> i think there is a difference between improving bitcoin in a backwards compatible opt-in way.
809 2015-12-21T20:20:41 <adam3us> and proposing a hard-fork. i think the point is for a hard-fork the entire community must opt-in
810 2015-12-21T20:20:57 <silvaedium> Honestly what you should be focusing on is the usage case for Bitcoin. While decentralization makes Bitcoin appealing as a means of transferring wealth without government interevention, you need to focus on appealing to those that need that goal to increase adoption.
811 2015-12-21T20:21:08 <zookolaptop> adam3us: that is a reasonable stance (although I disagree with it).
812 2015-12-21T20:21:19 <zookolaptop> adam3us: but, the point here is that the miners and the community do *not* understand that.
813 2015-12-21T20:21:28 <zookolaptop> So if you want that to be the way it is, you'd better Get Explaining.
814 2015-12-21T20:21:29 <adam3us> zookolaptop: elaborate (why disagree)
815 2015-12-21T20:21:33 <zookolaptop> No.
816 2015-12-21T20:21:38 <adam3us> zookolaptop: yes doco sucks. hopeful someone will fix
817 2015-12-21T20:21:39 <zookolaptop> Because my opinion on the way it should be isn't important.
818 2015-12-21T20:21:54 <zookolaptop> What's important is the mismatch between the way it is in the minds of users and miners and the way it is in the minds of devs.
819 2015-12-21T20:21:54 <silvaedium> Be it focusing on the wealthy who as part of a capital flight need to move their funds out of the US, or underground markets, the decentralization of Bitcoin means that the developers wont be held liabile for Bitcoin's featuers
820 2015-12-21T20:21:58 <adam3us> zookolaptop: no disagreement that more info and doco is needed.
821 2015-12-21T20:22:01 <Iriez> So, if we can agree on that issue of communication of consensus and responsibilities, then we can agree that this issue is (probably) circular. I can tell you what precisely will happen when maintainers vocally state "we will not make consensus rules" .....the community will go "well who should?
822 2015-12-21T20:22:21 <zookolaptop> Yep.
823 2015-12-21T20:22:22 <silvaedium> Look at all of this bullshit talk.
824 2015-12-21T20:22:24 <silvaedium> It's amazing.
825 2015-12-21T20:22:24 <Iriez> and most likely will maintain the most educated people and best suited to make consensus decisions are the maintainers.
826 2015-12-21T20:22:36 <silvaedium> Plow the sable!
827 2015-12-21T20:22:55 <Iriez> And then here we are again, at the same situation :)
828 2015-12-21T20:23:00 *** krog has quit IRC
829 2015-12-21T20:23:00 <adam3us> Iriez: so the way that could work is the devs propose a hard-fork and ask the wider community if they think it is a good idea. if its clear that its nearly unanimous that sounds like a good way forward.
830 2015-12-21T20:23:01 <silvaedium> My pleasure :-)
831 2015-12-21T20:23:37 <Iriez> adam3us: I think concrete proposals are absolutely needed to ascertain consensus, but the critical question is how do we *measure* consensus?
832 2015-12-21T20:23:46 <brg444> adam3us +1. I think a reasonable, backward compatible, proposal that everyone can get behind is certainly one step toward stitching back together the community so that we are able to move forward as unit if ever the need for a hardfork presents itself
833 2015-12-21T20:24:00 <silvaedium> Bitcoin is becoming too Fuzzy
834 2015-12-21T20:24:06 <silvaedium> In both administration and application
835 2015-12-21T20:24:12 *** moli has joined #bitcoin-dev
836 2015-12-21T20:24:12 <silvaedium> There is a lot of effort that goes into this
837 2015-12-21T20:24:16 <silvaedium> Quit.,
838 2015-12-21T20:24:32 *** pooler has joined #bitcoin-dev
839 2015-12-21T20:24:37 <silvaedium> There needs to be day-to-day real world non abstract usage cases.
840 2015-12-21T20:24:56 <silvaedium> Yesa
841 2015-12-21T20:25:08 <zookolaptop> adam3us: I went to Hong Kong and saw a panel which was allegedly 90% of the current hashpower.
842 2015-12-21T20:25:26 <zookolaptop> Many questions were asked of the panel (9 members) about making changes to Bitcoin protocol.
843 2015-12-21T20:25:40 <zookolaptop> The answers were consistent, and repeated multiple times: the miners want "the core devs" to decide, and then they will do whatever the core devs tell them to do.
844 2015-12-21T20:26:02 <silvaedium> Who is in control of the core devs?
845 2015-12-21T20:26:03 <silvaedium> Turtles.
846 2015-12-21T20:26:17 *** molz has quit IRC
847 2015-12-21T20:26:18 <zookolaptop> I'm not saying that "the core devs" have to take that power and exercise it. But I am saying that if they do not, they are leaving the vast majority of users hanging, because those users are expecting them to do so.
848 2015-12-21T20:26:24 *** kermit has quit IRC
849 2015-12-21T20:26:28 <zookolaptop> So perhaps they ought to explain what they are doing/not doing to those people.
850 2015-12-21T20:26:32 <sipa> so, better communication is needed
851 2015-12-21T20:26:36 <sipa> i completely agree there
852 2015-12-21T20:27:17 <Iriez> sipa: can you at least confirm that you understand the majority of hashing power has given their vote to the maintainers?
853 2015-12-21T20:27:18 <silvaedium> This still doesn't mean anything with regards to concerete changes that should be made.
854 2015-12-21T20:27:28 <sipa> yes
855 2015-12-21T20:27:32 <Iriez> silvaedium: baby steps my friend.
856 2015-12-21T20:27:37 <Iriez> Ok, thank you sipa.
857 2015-12-21T20:27:52 <Iriez> So, then you recognize that you and the maintainers have a unevenly distribution of power right now ?
858 2015-12-21T20:28:03 <silvaedium> At a high enough resolution baby steps seem like leaps, and lower they seem like a blur.
859 2015-12-21T20:28:10 <silvaedium> Focus on the end result and work backwards.
860 2015-12-21T20:28:23 <silvaedium> Discover the goals, make changes to approach that goal.
861 2015-12-21T20:28:26 <sipa> only when we agree
862 2015-12-21T20:28:31 <zookolaptop> So I think what is happening is that either the core devs as a group do not understand that the miners have given their vote to them, or they do not wish to exercise that power. But I'm not sure.
863 2015-12-21T20:28:38 <silvaedium> Then correct the cause of the disagreement or change the system to allow agreement.
864 2015-12-21T20:28:41 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
865 2015-12-21T20:28:54 *** brg444 has quit IRC
866 2015-12-21T20:29:04 <silvaedium> All of this massive amount of text to communicate such simple ideas is excessive and a waste of effort.
867 2015-12-21T20:29:05 <Iriez> sipa: I see your perspective. You are solid on your stance that taking action is excercising power and not taking action is not excercising power.
868 2015-12-21T20:29:28 <adam3us> zookolaptop: that is what the roadmap was intended to convey - a proposed roadmap and first step: seg-wit first
869 2015-12-21T20:29:32 <silvaedium> Miners are like "Oh shit let the core devs decide" the core devs are like "Bitch we only care about technical stuff that wont increase adoption" the executive is like "core devs get your shit in gear, we need to make bitcoin money"
870 2015-12-21T20:29:33 *** brg444 has joined #bitcoin-dev
871 2015-12-21T20:29:38 <zookolaptop> adam3us: what roadmap do you mean?
872 2015-12-21T20:29:40 <adam3us> zookolaptop: help with doco accepted
873 2015-12-21T20:29:53 <adam3us> zookolaptop: aha. see the locatiability of the roadmap also failed
874 2015-12-21T20:30:01 <sipa> Iriez: i am acknowledging that i have influence; and i am intending to use that influence to explain why us exercising the (alleged) power to hardfork is a bad idea
875 2015-12-21T20:30:06 <zookolaptop> adam3us: yeah, I'm unaware of this roadmap...
876 2015-12-21T20:30:10 <sipa> Iriez: and apparently we're not doing a good job at that
877 2015-12-21T20:30:20 <sipa> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011865.html
878 2015-12-21T20:30:23 <sipa> zookolaptop: ^
879 2015-12-21T20:30:38 <zookolaptop> Okay, before I load this URL, let me just tell you what I'm going to look for first.
880 2015-12-21T20:30:46 <zookolaptop> The most important thing in this is going to be the authority and identity of the writers.
881 2015-12-21T20:30:48 <silvaedium> NEVER HARDFORK
882 2015-12-21T20:30:56 <Iriez> sipa: if a blind woman is standing in the street and you see someone is driving erradically, headed straight for her and you know, for a undeniable fact, that you can pull her out of the way.....does allowing the car to hit her remove you of moral responsibility? Does your lack of action change the fact that she got killed because you did not step in and pull her out of harms way?
883 2015-12-21T20:30:58 <silvaedium> Do absolutely NOTHING to separate the userbase.
884 2015-12-21T20:31:00 <zookolaptop> If it says "This is from sipa", that's one thing. If it says "This is the core devs" speaking, that's another.
885 2015-12-21T20:31:09 <zookolaptop> Ah yes, I've read this.
886 2015-12-21T20:31:13 <zookolaptop> It is from gmaxwell.
887 2015-12-21T20:31:16 <Iriez> I apologize for the 'what if', but I believe this excercise can help one understand their position of authority regardless of action vs inaction.
888 2015-12-21T20:31:18 <silvaedium> This isn't a moral argument
889 2015-12-21T20:31:22 <silvaedium> That's ridiculous
890 2015-12-21T20:31:35 <brg444> zookolaptop here's is the "coredev" part:https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165
891 2015-12-21T20:31:37 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
892 2015-12-21T20:31:42 <sipa> Iriez: if i was convinced bitcoin was heading for a disaster and the only way out was a hardfork, i would call for the community to support a hardfork proposal
893 2015-12-21T20:31:59 <sipa> Iriez: i however do not consider the fear of economic change a disaster
894 2015-12-21T20:32:00 <silvaedium> But it's not
895 2015-12-21T20:32:03 <Iriez> I agree that the situation we are headed for is not a disaster.
896 2015-12-21T20:32:09 <Iriez> Yes, we both agree there.
897 2015-12-21T20:32:13 *** mrkent_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
898 2015-12-21T20:32:17 * zookolaptop looks at https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165
899 2015-12-21T20:32:18 <silvaedium> Bitcoin is not headed for a hardfork unless there is a technical issue wishing to cause such a hardfork
900 2015-12-21T20:32:36 *** mrkent has quit IRC
901 2015-12-21T20:32:37 <silvaedium> Devs need ideagrams
902 2015-12-21T20:32:51 <morcos> zookolaptop: The communication is bad, but the "core devs" have made a decision.
903 2015-12-21T20:32:58 <zookolaptop> brg444: ah! Thanks.
904 2015-12-21T20:33:06 <zookolaptop> morcos: you mean https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165 ?
905 2015-12-21T20:33:09 <morcos> It turned out to be remarkably easy becasue almost all of them agree with Greg's roadmap
906 2015-12-21T20:33:10 <silvaedium> The core devs are devs, they aren't people who understand anything beyond the technical
907 2015-12-21T20:33:12 <morcos> Yes
908 2015-12-21T20:33:15 <silvaedium> They code
909 2015-12-21T20:33:17 <silvaedium> That's all
910 2015-12-21T20:33:23 <morcos> And Greg's roadmap clearly does not include a HF at this point
911 2015-12-21T20:33:28 *** Emzy has joined #bitcoin-dev
912 2015-12-21T20:33:44 <silvaedium> Thank you for yor. Service ice.
913 2015-12-21T20:33:47 <silvaedium> cioa
914 2015-12-21T20:34:05 <Iriez> What the core maintainers need is a team of pysch, sociology and communications experts to help them :P
915 2015-12-21T20:34:24 <JeromeLegoupil> morcos I don't think communication is so bad, considering how tricky it is to communicate on something that hasn't reached yet consensus
916 2015-12-21T20:34:27 <Iriez> This reminds me of politics and how we only elect politicians who are certified in law
917 2015-12-21T20:34:37 <Iriez> and not scientists, doctors, laborers, etc :)
918 2015-12-21T20:34:38 <adam3us> Iriez: even a doco writer would be a start.
919 2015-12-21T20:34:46 <Iriez> +1
920 2015-12-21T20:35:02 <Iriez> adam3us: I think a team of doco writers would be beneficial, not a indivdidual
921 2015-12-21T20:35:17 <silvaedium> Iriez
922 2015-12-21T20:35:19 <silvaedium> Horridation
923 2015-12-21T20:35:44 <JeromeLegoupil> morcos also there has been important previous communication. Don't forget : https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/open-letter-bitcoin-community-developers-1441146317
924 2015-12-21T20:36:27 <silvaedium> You're still talking about docs with the OTC wiki isn't even functional?
925 2015-12-21T20:36:33 <silvaedium> Do you even understand the problem, hear?
926 2015-12-21T20:36:43 *** tommygunner_ is now known as tommygunner
927 2015-12-21T20:36:45 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
928 2015-12-21T20:36:57 <Iriez> zookolaptop: that pull/1165 ....is that stating approval for gmaxwell's proposal? Even that im confused on because there is not a link or any statement of what the capacity increase actually is
929 2015-12-21T20:37:29 <sipa> Iriez: it links to greg's post
930 2015-12-21T20:37:48 <silvaedium> Bitcoin needs to get it's priorities straight and work on a system for dynamically updating it's priorities based upon the current goal. Not talk in abstraction and future plans while the main wiki that appeals to it's primary audiance isn't functional.
931 2015-12-21T20:37:52 <silvaedium> https://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/Main_Page
932 2015-12-21T20:37:54 <silvaedium> Down
933 2015-12-21T20:37:54 <silvaedium> Fix it
934 2015-12-21T20:37:56 *** digitalmagus8 has joined #bitcoin-dev
935 2015-12-21T20:37:57 <silvaedium> Nao.
936 2015-12-21T20:38:11 <Iriez> oops! sorry, you are correct I see it at the bottom now
937 2015-12-21T20:38:21 <instagibbs> silvaedium, cut it out. It's ok to bundle your thoughts.
938 2015-12-21T20:38:24 <adam3us> see also this data on transaction volume trends and blocksize and demand elasticity http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=500 hopefully he'll update it
939 2015-12-21T20:38:57 <brg444> silvaedium AFAIK that's not the official wiki
940 2015-12-21T20:38:58 *** digitalmagus has quit IRC
941 2015-12-21T20:39:11 <brg444> silvaedium see the "-otc" part?
942 2015-12-21T20:39:14 <Iriez> sipa: do you feel it would be appropriate to state that the core maintainers wish for a fee market to develop?
943 2015-12-21T20:39:41 <Iriez> Or, at the least, that the consequences of not raising a blocksize will likely result in a fee market?
944 2015-12-21T20:39:41 <brg444> Iriez sorry to interject but don't you feel like a fee market is not already developing?
945 2015-12-21T20:39:47 <sipa> Iriez: i wish for an ecosystem that can deal with the reality of a limited block size
946 2015-12-21T20:39:58 <instagibbs> Iriez, Minimal Viable Consensus(MVC)
947 2015-12-21T20:40:05 <instagibbs> :P
948 2015-12-21T20:40:20 <Iriez> bgr444: Im not debating, only trying to probe for clear communications.
949 2015-12-21T20:40:38 <Iriez> but to answer your question, yes, the recent restriction of block space has started a fee market development.
950 2015-12-21T20:40:45 *** xss has joined #bitcoin-dev
951 2015-12-21T20:41:42 <silvaedium> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOBzWF0Aws&feature=youtu.be&t=19 <-- Relevant
952 2015-12-21T20:41:49 <brg444> that's my feeling as well. I'm unconfortable with referring to such things as some sort of "event"
953 2015-12-21T20:42:04 <zookolaptop> Iriez: yes, https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165 is stating support for gmaxwell's proposal. Yes, it fails to communicate that very well. :-(
954 2015-12-21T20:42:28 <sipa> zookolaptop: fails to communicate what very well?
955 2015-12-21T20:42:30 <zookolaptop> Sorry, let me be more specific -- it fails to make that clear to someone who doesn't have as much context and doesn't spend as much time reading.
956 2015-12-21T20:42:34 <adam3us> Iriez: see http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=500 for data about block size with graphs
957 2015-12-21T20:42:39 *** swappermall has joined #bitcoin-dev
958 2015-12-21T20:42:59 <zookolaptop> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165 does not communicate its intent to a very wide audience.
959 2015-12-21T20:43:22 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
960 2015-12-21T20:43:36 <Iriez> sipa: there's one thing that does bother me about using SW as a capacity increase that I've not really seen fully addressed. Perhaps you could help me. I understand the theoretical capacity increase, most of it which is seen in P2SH. But for regular transactions, it does not seem to offer much of a increase. Since the majority of the network is using non-P2SH transactions, wouldn't
961 2015-12-21T20:43:36 <Iriez> there not be much of a increase to system capacity considering this? Would not the system need to evolve with time, more P2SH transactions to exist befroe the capacity increase becomes more of a reality, less of a theory?
962 2015-12-21T20:44:06 <Iriez> zookolaptop: Thank you.
963 2015-12-21T20:44:09 <adam3us> Iriez: wallets will need to upgrade to benefit
964 2015-12-21T20:44:25 <sipa> Iriez: i ran a simulation on the existing bitcoin blockchain, and computed exactly what its size and virtual size under SW would be if all transactions were converted to segwit
965 2015-12-21T20:44:42 <sipa> Iriez: that is under the assumption that every wallet would have used segwit transactions from the start
966 2015-12-21T20:44:47 <morcos> zookolaptop: my thinking is that it doesn't need to. it wil be important to be able to answer to a wider audience, what does this mean for us? and we should work on that. but right now its just fundamentally important to show that the developer community is united and has a plan
967 2015-12-21T20:44:53 <morcos> so we can stop going in circles
968 2015-12-21T20:44:54 <sipa> Iriez: it gives a 1.75x capacity factor in that case
969 2015-12-21T20:45:10 <Iriez> sipa, so essentially in laymans terms it would be a blocksize raise to 1.75mb
970 2015-12-21T20:45:22 <sipa> Iriez: yup
971 2015-12-21T20:45:23 <Iriez> I know thats not the correct way to look at it, b ut its the way most laymen will understand.
972 2015-12-21T20:45:34 <sipa> though there are many other benefits on the side
973 2015-12-21T20:45:57 <Iriez> I understand its compression (or perhaps reallocation) and not a raising of size.
974 2015-12-21T20:46:07 <zookolaptop> morcos: I think I agree about what's important. I *think* that I think that https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165 doesn't communicate about what's important to a wide audience.
975 2015-12-21T20:46:11 <sipa> oh no, it absolutely is raising the size :)
976 2015-12-21T20:46:20 <sipa> just in a backward compatible way
977 2015-12-21T20:46:26 <sipa> but i consider the size increase a side effect
978 2015-12-21T20:46:41 *** proslogion has joined #bitcoin-dev
979 2015-12-21T20:46:50 <Iriez> You are saying that blocks can be 1.75mb with SW?
980 2015-12-21T20:47:03 <sipa> yes
981 2015-12-21T20:47:05 <adam3us> Iriez: effective block size yes
982 2015-12-21T20:47:06 <Iriez> Or, rather, over 1mb?
983 2015-12-21T20:47:09 <sipa> yes
984 2015-12-21T20:47:17 <sipa> it is a block size increase proposal, period
985 2015-12-21T20:47:17 <brg444> adam3us it'd be nice if major wallet providers would collaborate early on during the transition so that we're able to squeeze as much juice as possible out of the SW update when it does get implemented. I understand Gavin was sort-of defacto proxy for communication with industry.
986 2015-12-21T20:47:28 *** proslogion has left #bitcoin-dev
987 2015-12-21T20:47:40 *** kermit has quit IRC
988 2015-12-21T20:47:45 *** tripleslash has quit IRC
989 2015-12-21T20:47:46 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
990 2015-12-21T20:47:47 <Iriez> Hrm, see, now I've been following this whole thing since day one, and even i did not understand that :/
991 2015-12-21T20:47:59 <adam3us> Iriez: with later improvements it should be able to get even more tps as well eg by soft-forking schnorr sigs into the easier upgradeability added by seg-wit
992 2015-12-21T20:48:11 <morcos> zookolaptop: well its going to be a process. but at the start, at least for the developers, its something to keep us focused
993 2015-12-21T20:48:23 *** tripleslash has joined #bitcoin-dev
994 2015-12-21T20:48:26 <sipa> Iriez: the trick is that the witness part is invisible to old nodes, and thus outside of the view of the old 1 mb block size limit
995 2015-12-21T20:48:42 <sipa> Iriez: so all we need to do is make sure the excluding-witness part remains under 1 mb
996 2015-12-21T20:48:42 <Iriez> That speaks poorly to the users. While im not a developer, im atleast 18 years in IT and a strong tech background, I could not ascertain that fact from all the discussions had.
997 2015-12-21T20:48:50 <Iriez> Is there a theoretical hard limit? Is that what the 4mb is?
998 2015-12-21T20:48:54 <sipa> yup
999 2015-12-21T20:49:00 <Iriez> Ok, fully clarified then :)
1000 2015-12-21T20:49:16 <sipa> new blocksize is defined as part_without_witness + witness*0.25
1001 2015-12-21T20:49:25 <sipa> that new block size remains limited to 1 MiB
1002 2015-12-21T20:49:30 <sipa> eh, 1 MB
1003 2015-12-21T20:49:56 <Iriez> So basically, its like SW is a whole new block space, combined with the old block space (layman)
1004 2015-12-21T20:50:30 <morcos> Iriez: thats exactly how i'd describe it
1005 2015-12-21T20:50:57 <sipa> Iriez: i felt i didn't have the time to properly explain in HK, due to time pressure at that point in the talk :)
1006 2015-12-21T20:51:04 <brg444> isn't it more like a rearrangement of block size content so that we can fit more in the same space...?
1007 2015-12-21T20:51:06 *** rdbell has quit IRC
1008 2015-12-21T20:51:11 <sipa> brg444: nope
1009 2015-12-21T20:51:33 <sipa> brg444: we just move some of the block content to a place where it isn't yet counted
1010 2015-12-21T20:51:45 <Iriez> Sometimes info diagrams are essential
1011 2015-12-21T20:51:48 <brg444> ah right.
1012 2015-12-21T20:51:49 <sipa> (and where it is also effectively cheaper to the ecosystem, due to better prunability)
1013 2015-12-21T20:51:52 <Iriez> I think in the case of SW, this is one of those scenario's.
1014 2015-12-21T20:51:59 <AaronvanW> sipa: why does jl2012 expect only +-1.25MB block size?
1015 2015-12-21T20:52:08 <Iriez> If we had a visualization of blocksize, it would help users understand it.
1016 2015-12-21T20:52:14 <AaronvanW> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg03116.html
1017 2015-12-21T20:52:16 <brg444> maybe we ought to hire Peter R for that, he makes nice drawings :)
1018 2015-12-21T20:52:23 <Iriez> lol
1019 2015-12-21T20:52:28 <Iriez> I somehow think that wont happen.
1020 2015-12-21T20:52:41 <instagibbs> just take something from his paper without attribution, im sure he wont mind
1021 2015-12-21T20:52:47 <AaronvanW> where does this difference between 1.25 and 1.75 come from?
1022 2015-12-21T20:52:59 *** tripleslash has quit IRC
1023 2015-12-21T20:53:27 <sipa> AaronvanW: he makes an assumption that not everyone will upgrade, which is certainly true
1024 2015-12-21T20:53:41 <sipa> AaronvanW: but i like to see it from the other side: exactly the people who upgrade do get the advantage
1025 2015-12-21T20:53:50 <Eliel_> so, short term he's right, long term, not so much.
1026 2015-12-21T20:53:56 <AaronvanW> sipa: oh is that the only difference?
1027 2015-12-21T20:54:26 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1028 2015-12-21T20:54:30 <Eliel_> fee pressure will convince more people into using SW transactions.
1029 2015-12-21T20:54:34 *** tripleslash has joined #bitcoin-dev
1030 2015-12-21T20:54:36 <sipa> AaronvanW: even if i'm the only wallet user in the world who starts using SW, i do get this 1.75x capacity increase for myself (as in: i will be able to do 1.75 times as many transactions as others for the same cost)
1031 2015-12-21T20:54:47 *** kermit has left #bitcoin-dev
1032 2015-12-21T20:55:08 <Iriez> sipa: do you feel that restriction on blockspace could be alliveated if 3rd party services (wallet providers, exchanes etc) upgrade and make it mandatory to switch to SW tx's ?
1033 2015-12-21T20:55:10 <AaronvanW> righyt
1034 2015-12-21T20:55:39 <sipa> Iriez: what restriction?
1035 2015-12-21T20:55:43 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
1036 2015-12-21T20:55:45 <brg444> Iriez It's kind of a no brainer for them since they have to pay less fees
1037 2015-12-21T20:55:57 <Iriez> sipa: if blockspace is getting full
1038 2015-12-21T20:56:09 <Iriez> this is assuming SW is live.
1039 2015-12-21T20:56:28 *** rdbell has joined #bitcoin-dev
1040 2015-12-21T20:56:32 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1041 2015-12-21T20:56:42 <Iriez> Sorry for asking a simple question, but im trying to black and white the situation with simplicity for understanding.
1042 2015-12-21T20:56:58 <sipa> Iriez: blockspace is supply and demand; i think it will inevitably grow to fill up
1043 2015-12-21T20:57:18 <sipa> Iriez: if the block size limit would have been 2 MB from the start, average blocks would be much larger already, IMHO
1044 2015-12-21T20:57:29 <sipa> (i have no evidence for that, just my view)
1045 2015-12-21T20:58:00 <Iriez> Yes, I understand, what I was just asking is if you believed that there would be a reaction by the community if blockspace starts filling up. If there is a large percentage of people not converted to SW tx's on the PSP's, wallet providers, exchanges etc
1046 2015-12-21T20:58:23 <Iriez> Do you feel that they would convert to SW to help allievate pressure
1047 2015-12-21T20:58:29 <adam3us> sipa: i think it is not an unreasonable claim because there are many more transactions offchain than onchain. maybe > 90% are offchain. the decision to go offchain or onchain is itself an economic decision.
1048 2015-12-21T20:59:16 <Iriez> Or perhaps, do you feel that users would put pressure on these companies to convert to SW tx's to help allievate pressure.
1049 2015-12-21T20:59:20 <sipa> Iriez: if existing payment mechanisms fill up the chain with no-witness txn, then new ones can pop up that undercut their fee rates by using SW :)
1050 2015-12-21T20:59:34 <Iriez> Yes, so there is a economic incentive, so it is likely.
1051 2015-12-21T20:59:35 <adam3us> Iriez: there are a number of wallets with large user bases, and hosted wallets with large user bases. if they upgraded all at once it may move the bulk in one go.
1052 2015-12-21T20:59:47 <Iriez> adam3us: my thoughts too.
1053 2015-12-21T20:59:53 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1054 2015-12-21T21:00:04 <adam3us> Iriez: and paritcularly on the hosted side thats easier in a sense because it's a backend upgrade
1055 2015-12-21T21:00:09 <Iriez> I am just trying to grasp policy decision making process and how it effects the wider economy.
1056 2015-12-21T21:00:28 <Iriez> I dont think like these guys do, so its essential to understand it :)
1057 2015-12-21T21:01:07 <Iriez> adam3us: yes, im thinking the blockchain.info's, coinbases, etc. p2p will come slower but surely over time.
1058 2015-12-21T21:02:05 <Iriez> sipa: but SW does not decrease fee per tx, it just allows more to fill into the tx, yes?
1059 2015-12-21T21:02:41 <Iriez> this would help with services that combine lots of inputs/outputs into one tx, but not for joe blow making a single tx, right?
1060 2015-12-21T21:02:53 <sipa> Iriez: under fee pressure conditions, the economically optimal strategy for miners is to maximize fee per virtual size
1061 2015-12-21T21:02:54 <brg444> Iriez why slower? as you've said they already have an economic incentive to do so. it'd be wise for them to move forward ASAP
1062 2015-12-21T21:03:08 <sipa> Iriez: virtual size of a sw transaction is lower than that of an equivalent normal transaction
1063 2015-12-21T21:03:30 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1064 2015-12-21T21:03:46 <Iriez> brg444: a server who can upgrade and upgrade a million users wallets at once is a lot faster than p2p propagation. Think localized software wallets vs hosted wallets.
1065 2015-12-21T21:03:58 <moa> brg444: " It's kind of a no brainer for them since they have to pay less fees" <--- here is the key insight into the incentive why/when fullnodes will consent to run larger blocksizes
1066 2015-12-21T21:04:15 <Iriez> sipa: when you say virtual size, you mean in the mempool?
1067 2015-12-21T21:04:19 *** rnvk has quit IRC
1068 2015-12-21T21:04:25 <moa> when fees get larger enough for their OWN transactions, they will run larger blocks
1069 2015-12-21T21:04:31 <brg444> Iriez ah sorry I read that wrong, didn't see the "p2p" part
1070 2015-12-21T21:04:39 <brg444> I agree 100%
1071 2015-12-21T21:04:42 <adam3us> Iriez: no its a concept to prevent wasteful use of the seg-witness data
1072 2015-12-21T21:04:44 <sipa> Iriez: no, i mean the base_size + witness_size * 0.25 formula
1073 2015-12-21T21:04:52 <Iriez> ah, ok.
1074 2015-12-21T21:06:32 *** vmatekol_ has quit IRC
1075 2015-12-21T21:07:12 <Iriez> My technical questions have been fully clarified, but unfortunately the issue of consensus mechanisms still feels at a stand still. Is there any plans among the maintainers to clarify this stance in a attempt to push it into light? Its very much heavy on the communities mind.
1076 2015-12-21T21:07:58 <Iriez> It seems that sipa at least feels its not the maintainers job to come up with consensus mechanisms. Is this what other maintainers feel too?
1077 2015-12-21T21:08:54 <sipa> Iriez: well, it's a soft fork; it doesn't require all software to agree to it
1078 2015-12-21T21:09:02 <sipa> Iriez: a majority of hashrate is enough
1079 2015-12-21T21:09:15 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
1080 2015-12-21T21:09:34 <moa> Iriez: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1165 this is what developer consensus looks like ... what is it you do not understand about the "mechanism"?
1081 2015-12-21T21:09:34 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
1082 2015-12-21T21:09:58 <moa> it sounds like you want an explanation of the social engineering of an open source project ?
1083 2015-12-21T21:09:58 *** vmatekole has joined #bitcoin-dev
1084 2015-12-21T21:10:26 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1085 2015-12-21T21:11:19 <Iriez> moa: sipa has stated that it is not the maintainers job to create consensus mechanisms. The community (I feel, from my observations) feels differently on the subject. Since its such a critical subject, I felt the need to provide more clarity to the issue.
1086 2015-12-21T21:11:21 <brg444> very happy to see Cory Fields in there, I always wondered how he managed to stay outside of the whole debate all this time.
1087 2015-12-21T21:12:11 <instagibbs> brg444, he's smarter ;)
1088 2015-12-21T21:12:20 <Iriez> moa: when a core maintainer hinges his decision on 'consensus' but then has no real clear metric of what 'consensus' is, then i see that as a severe problem.
1089 2015-12-21T21:12:30 <Iriez> Not the problem being with sipa, but being with the tools at hand.
1090 2015-12-21T21:12:30 <brg444> instagibbs I guess so!
1091 2015-12-21T21:12:56 *** vmatekole has quit IRC
1092 2015-12-21T21:12:59 <Iriez> The issue is circular and always circles back to the core maintainers.
1093 2015-12-21T21:13:09 <brg444> Iriez Consensus metric seems very clear to me: what rules are being enforced by network peers
1094 2015-12-21T21:13:27 <Iriez> thats consensus on current running software, not proposed changes
1095 2015-12-21T21:13:33 <Iriez> We were discussing making changes based on consensus.
1096 2015-12-21T21:13:34 <adam3us> Iriez: i thought it was clear in case of a hard-fork a proposal would be made and to try to get wide ecosystem views.
1097 2015-12-21T21:13:46 <Iriez> adam3us: and how is that achieved?
1098 2015-12-21T21:13:53 <instagibbs> Iriez, if there was some ungameable metric it would probably be in the consensus protocol itself. There are none.
1099 2015-12-21T21:15:26 <Iriez> developers are very conservative by nature, and need to be convinced of consensus before implementing changes, yet there are no tools to widely measure consenses of proposed changes. This leads to stagnation.
1100 2015-12-21T21:15:52 <Iriez> If the users really are the ones with power, then surely their vote matters.
1101 2015-12-21T21:16:21 <AdrianG> Iriez: clearly its just going to be bitcoin business vs bitcoin miners.
1102 2015-12-21T21:16:24 <Iriez> (please dont ramble about voting via which softare to use, i understand that, im talkikng proposals, not current)
1103 2015-12-21T21:16:53 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1104 2015-12-21T21:16:55 <AdrianG> somehow im almost certain small end users aren't even in consideration.
1105 2015-12-21T21:16:56 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1106 2015-12-21T21:16:56 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1107 2015-12-21T21:17:08 <brg444> AdrianG define small
1108 2015-12-21T21:17:11 <moa> Iriez: it's not really that mysterious, the 'metric' is the same as it was since satoshi started publishing code ... if enough peers are copying your code, building on it and ultimately running it.
1109 2015-12-21T21:17:19 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1110 2015-12-21T21:17:35 <Iriez> moa: you are forgetting the power that the core maintainers currently yield.
1111 2015-12-21T21:17:44 <Iriez> What they propose, via code, is what ultimately gets run
1112 2015-12-21T21:17:56 <Iriez> If you disagree with this statement you are ignoring the current reality of the system.
1113 2015-12-21T21:18:01 <moa> they have only as much power as people who follow them ...
1114 2015-12-21T21:18:09 <Iriez> The majority hashpower has given their vote to the maintainers.
1115 2015-12-21T21:18:17 <jcorgan> this is starting to get circular
1116 2015-12-21T21:18:21 <Iriez> That means that what the maintainers decide is what will be ran.
1117 2015-12-21T21:18:31 <Iriez> Starting? It has been, which is what i've been saying the whole time. The issue is circular.
1118 2015-12-21T21:18:38 <Iriez> It always comes back to the maintainers.
1119 2015-12-21T21:18:39 <jcorgan> no, this discussion is
1120 2015-12-21T21:19:03 <AdrianG> moa: in the end its miners who matter most, because they are the ones securing the network.
1121 2015-12-21T21:19:04 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
1122 2015-12-21T21:19:15 <Iriez> Correct. The issue is too. And will remain so until the core maintainers clarify the situation.
1123 2015-12-21T21:19:21 <AdrianG> why would anyone prefer a less secure network? it would have to be a dramatic change.
1124 2015-12-21T21:19:28 <Iriez> AdrianG gets it :)
1125 2015-12-21T21:19:48 <brg444> AdrianG do you think miners are interested in mining worthless coins?
1126 2015-12-21T21:20:04 <AdrianG> brg444: are you interesed in security-less network?
1127 2015-12-21T21:20:10 *** hashtag has joined #bitcoin-dev
1128 2015-12-21T21:20:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o jcorgan
1129 2015-12-21T21:20:17 <AdrianG> or miner-less network, rather.
1130 2015-12-21T21:20:18 <moa> i think the discussion has gone outside development into 'social attacks' and the the thicket there #bitcoin-dev -> #bitcoin-discuss
1131 2015-12-21T21:20:28 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
1132 2015-12-21T21:20:46 <Iriez> moa: You are correct I believe.
1133 2015-12-21T21:21:50 *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
1134 2015-12-21T21:21:56 <AdrianG> social attacks?
1135 2015-12-21T21:22:06 *** sipa has left #bitcoin-dev
1136 2015-12-21T21:22:11 <Iriez> I dont agree with social attacks, but I believe it is no longer technical discussion.
1137 2015-12-21T21:22:53 <brg444> Agreed too. Moved the discussion to #bitcoin if you care to pursue it AdrianG
1138 2015-12-21T21:23:35 <Iriez> If it does not involve maintainers, im not interested :)
1139 2015-12-21T21:24:09 <AdrianG> they aren't interested in what you have to say either, it seems, Iriez.
1140 2015-12-21T21:24:30 <brg444> maintainers are a red herring ;)
1141 2015-12-21T21:24:47 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1142 2015-12-21T21:25:00 *** afk11 has quit IRC
1143 2015-12-21T21:25:17 *** afk11 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1144 2015-12-21T21:26:16 *** jcorgan sets mode: -o jcorgan
1145 2015-12-21T21:28:42 *** ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-dev
1146 2015-12-21T21:29:41 *** kermit has quit IRC
1147 2015-12-21T21:29:52 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1148 2015-12-21T21:32:55 *** silvaedium has left #bitcoin-dev
1149 2015-12-21T21:34:23 *** c0rw|zZz is now known as c0rw1n
1150 2015-12-21T21:38:23 *** treehug88 has quit IRC
1151 2015-12-21T21:39:08 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1152 2015-12-21T21:39:40 *** MarcoPon has joined #bitcoin-dev
1153 2015-12-21T21:39:42 *** jgarzik has quit IRC
1154 2015-12-21T21:40:50 *** MarcoPon has quit IRC
1155 2015-12-21T21:41:03 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1156 2015-12-21T21:41:33 *** jgarzik has joined #bitcoin-dev
1157 2015-12-21T21:42:31 <Iriez> Is there any interest in allowing nodes the capability to vote on BIP's? Similar to the way we previously voted for BIP's on blocksize, but allowing nodes to vote? Would this be a interesting metric that could help determine users consensus on the issues? I only ask because I am a alturistic node operator.
1158 2015-12-21T21:43:15 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-dev
1159 2015-12-21T21:43:34 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1160 2015-12-21T21:43:41 <instagibbs> Iriez, spooling up thousands of fakes nodes is easy. You'd need proof-of-stake voting or something similar. It's been discussed a decent amount.
1161 2015-12-21T21:44:55 <Iriez> instagibbs: My thought process is that nodes could implement a identifying signature that could be verified with a function(s) within the node. That way you could determine if the node is real or just a spoofed proxy.
1162 2015-12-21T21:45:37 <Iriez> For example, if I asked a node for a random piece of data only the node could have, with a identifier flag, the node could respond with that piece of data plus the identifier flag.
1163 2015-12-21T21:45:47 *** helloworld123789 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1164 2015-12-21T21:47:12 <Iriez> If 1000 nodes respond with the same signature, then you would count those 1000 votes as 1.
1165 2015-12-21T21:47:22 <instagibbs> Why would they not just have 1000 different sigs...
1166 2015-12-21T21:47:39 <Iriez> Because thats what the random piece of data requested for was.
1167 2015-12-21T21:47:40 <instagibbs> s/sigs/keys/g
1168 2015-12-21T21:48:05 <instagibbs> How does that prove identity
1169 2015-12-21T21:48:25 <instagibbs> ok this might be #bitcoin material if you wanna continue
1170 2015-12-21T21:48:41 <Iriez> np, I'll think it through more first, perhaps this is more game-able than I thought :)
1171 2015-12-21T21:48:51 <instagibbs> search for proof-of-storage
1172 2015-12-21T21:49:32 <Iriez> thank you, I will!
1173 2015-12-21T21:49:35 *** kermit has quit IRC
1174 2015-12-21T21:50:27 <instagibbs> cheers
1175 2015-12-21T21:52:44 *** weems has quit IRC
1176 2015-12-21T21:54:19 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1177 2015-12-21T21:57:57 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1178 2015-12-21T21:58:37 *** afk11 has quit IRC
1179 2015-12-21T21:58:49 *** afk11 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1180 2015-12-21T22:00:06 *** brg444 has quit IRC
1181 2015-12-21T22:00:10 *** Cryo has quit IRC
1182 2015-12-21T22:06:56 *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1183 2015-12-21T22:09:36 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1184 2015-12-21T22:10:59 *** ThomasV has quit IRC
1185 2015-12-21T22:11:15 *** jcorgan is now known as jcorgan|away
1186 2015-12-21T22:11:55 *** veleiro has joined #bitcoin-dev
1187 2015-12-21T22:16:03 *** JackH has quit IRC
1188 2015-12-21T22:19:23 *** neozaru_ has quit IRC
1189 2015-12-21T22:19:25 <btcdrak> In case anyone missed it https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases
1190 2015-12-21T22:20:34 *** raedah has quit IRC
1191 2015-12-21T22:22:04 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-dev
1192 2015-12-21T22:23:11 *** atian has joined #bitcoin-dev
1193 2015-12-21T22:23:17 *** laurentmt has quit IRC
1194 2015-12-21T22:24:35 *** GAit has quit IRC
1195 2015-12-21T22:25:22 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1196 2015-12-21T22:25:23 *** circuspeanut has quit IRC
1197 2015-12-21T22:25:25 *** atian has quit IRC
1198 2015-12-21T22:27:16 *** won9 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1199 2015-12-21T22:27:19 *** antizionist__ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1200 2015-12-21T22:32:43 *** tantalum has quit IRC
1201 2015-12-21T22:33:14 *** atian has joined #bitcoin-dev
1202 2015-12-21T22:33:44 *** metalcamp has joined #bitcoin-dev
1203 2015-12-21T22:34:09 *** Taek42 is now known as Taek
1204 2015-12-21T22:37:27 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1205 2015-12-21T22:38:04 *** mrkent_ has quit IRC
1206 2015-12-21T22:38:14 *** mrkent has joined #bitcoin-dev
1207 2015-12-21T22:42:06 *** helloworld123789 has quit IRC
1208 2015-12-21T22:42:38 *** earthris1 has quit IRC
1209 2015-12-21T22:43:08 *** earthrise has joined #bitcoin-dev
1210 2015-12-21T22:43:19 *** bi_fa_fu has joined #bitcoin-dev
1211 2015-12-21T22:47:32 *** Emzy has quit IRC
1212 2015-12-21T22:49:55 *** paveljanik has quit IRC
1213 2015-12-21T22:53:38 *** bi_fa_fu has quit IRC
1214 2015-12-21T22:53:39 *** brg444 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1215 2015-12-21T22:55:30 *** weems has joined #bitcoin-dev
1216 2015-12-21T22:55:38 *** erasmospunk has quit IRC
1217 2015-12-21T22:55:56 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
1218 2015-12-21T22:58:44 *** Prattler has joined #bitcoin-dev
1219 2015-12-21T22:59:51 *** bendavenport has quit IRC
1220 2015-12-21T23:00:49 *** bi_fa_fu has joined #bitcoin-dev
1221 2015-12-21T23:02:39 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
1222 2015-12-21T23:05:00 *** DougieBot5000 has quit IRC
1223 2015-12-21T23:07:15 *** kermit has quit IRC
1224 2015-12-21T23:07:50 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
1225 2015-12-21T23:07:51 *** IAmNotDorian has joined #bitcoin-dev
1226 2015-12-21T23:07:57 *** droark has quit IRC
1227 2015-12-21T23:08:37 *** desantis has joined #bitcoin-dev
1228 2015-12-21T23:09:22 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1229 2015-12-21T23:09:47 *** bi_fa_fu has quit IRC
1230 2015-12-21T23:10:09 *** sekrit has quit IRC
1231 2015-12-21T23:14:01 *** geneous has quit IRC
1232 2015-12-21T23:14:36 *** kermit has quit IRC
1233 2015-12-21T23:15:11 *** raedah has quit IRC
1234 2015-12-21T23:15:22 *** atian has left #bitcoin-dev
1235 2015-12-21T23:15:25 *** darvon has quit IRC
1236 2015-12-21T23:15:47 *** jayne_ is now known as jayne
1237 2015-12-21T23:18:41 *** darvon has joined #bitcoin-dev
1238 2015-12-21T23:19:20 *** akrmn has joined #bitcoin-dev
1239 2015-12-21T23:19:53 *** brson has joined #bitcoin-dev
1240 2015-12-21T23:20:30 *** raedah has joined #bitcoin-dev
1241 2015-12-21T23:20:58 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
1242 2015-12-21T23:22:36 *** phantomcircuit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1243 2015-12-21T23:24:05 *** MrHodl has joined #bitcoin-dev
1244 2015-12-21T23:24:44 *** n0n0 has quit IRC
1245 2015-12-21T23:24:55 *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
1246 2015-12-21T23:27:39 *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
1247 2015-12-21T23:30:30 *** IAmNotDorian has quit IRC
1248 2015-12-21T23:31:42 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
1249 2015-12-21T23:32:28 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-dev
1250 2015-12-21T23:37:14 *** StephenM347 has quit IRC
1251 2015-12-21T23:42:12 *** lnovy has quit IRC
1252 2015-12-21T23:43:10 *** lnovy has joined #bitcoin-dev
1253 2015-12-21T23:47:05 *** benrcole has joined #bitcoin-dev
1254 2015-12-21T23:48:34 *** CubicEar_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
1255 2015-12-21T23:50:47 *** c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|zZz
1256 2015-12-21T23:51:42 *** JeromeLegoupil has quit IRC
1257 2015-12-21T23:52:18 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC
1258 2015-12-21T23:55:14 *** kermit has joined #bitcoin-dev
1259 2015-12-21T23:56:37 *** Tera2342 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1260 2015-12-21T23:57:22 *** meZee has quit IRC