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88 2015-12-24T04:21:12 <Guest58> hi - i'm trying to run 'bitcoind -daemon' on my Mac OS - i get a message saying "bitcoin server starting" but nothing else
89 2015-12-24T04:21:40 <Guest58> then when i try and run any bitcoin-cli commands i get an error messaging saying 'couldn't connect to server'
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121 2015-12-24T05:11:52 <Taek> Can someone confirm:
122 2015-12-24T05:12:12 <Taek> my understanding is that most softforks have been deployed in such a way that non-upgraded miners are still able to mine valid blocks
123 2015-12-24T05:12:45 <Taek> and this is achieved because the miners won't put invalid transactions into their blocks thanks to IsStandard rules on their mempool
124 2015-12-24T05:15:18 <katu> Taek: soft fork means the older clients will accept blocks produced by newer clients, but new clients might reject blocks from old clients.
125 2015-12-24T05:16:39 <Taek> right, but my understanding was that, thanks to IsStandard rules, miners on old clients typically weren't at risk of including now-invalid transactions into blocks that they built
126 2015-12-24T05:16:41 <katu> Taek: hard means usually the opposite. new clients will reject old client blocks.
127 2015-12-24T05:17:12 <katu> risho: isstandard is just implementation detail, ultimately it depends what each side accepts.
128 2015-12-24T05:17:18 <katu> Taek: ^
129 2015-12-24T05:18:07 <katu> also, isstandard is just tx-choice rule, not necessarily validity rule? i'm not well versed in exact details.
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131 2015-12-24T05:18:31 <Taek> katu: miners can pick any set of IsStandard rules that they want, because they aren't enforced by consensus
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133 2015-12-24T05:19:03 <katu> Taek: yes, in case its just tx choice and not enforced, its not really a fork.
134 2015-12-24T05:19:08 <Taek> I'm just wondering if historically there have been issues where non-upgraded miners have started mining invalid blocks, or if generally they have been protected
135 2015-12-24T05:19:53 <katu> yes, several soft forks (like 3?) happened in the past, and perhaps one hard fork for the overflow bug.
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137 2015-12-24T05:22:09 <katu> Taek: only hard forks are at risk of not converging to a winning branch, if thats what you mean. these definitions are all muddy, consensus issues should be judged on case on case.
138 2015-12-24T05:24:50 <Taek> katu: my question is stritcly regarding soft forks, and whether miners who haven't upgraded have historically lost money from mining invalid blocks. I do remember the bip66 fork, where some non-upgraded miner did mine an invalid block and impacted a bunch of spv mining as well
139 2015-12-24T05:25:48 <katu> Taek: yes, soft fork will cause temporary competition and ultimately an orphan
140 2015-12-24T05:25:52 <katu> whose work will be lost.
141 2015-12-24T05:25:56 <katu> so they'll "lose money" there
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147 2015-12-24T05:32:40 <midnightmagic> Taek: i believe the form of the older clients' blocks will not be accepted by new miners. i think the block version has changed.
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149 2015-12-24T05:33:14 <Taek> once the block version changes, old versions are rejected?
150 2015-12-24T05:33:45 <midnightmagic> if it is part of the mining-enforced softfork, yeah i think so.
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153 2015-12-24T05:37:24 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: actually, I'm not sure that is necessarily the case with SegWit
154 2015-12-24T05:37:38 <Luke-Jr> but old miners might accept an invalid blockchain, so it's not a good idea..
155 2015-12-24T05:38:04 <Luke-Jr> Taek: note also that IsStandard is extremely relaxed nowadays
156 2015-12-24T05:38:43 <Luke-Jr> but yes, historically, old miners have been prevented from working outright
157 2015-12-24T05:40:02 <Taek> Luke-Jr: Thanks, exactly the info I was looking for
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159 2015-12-24T05:41:32 <midnightmagic> Luke-Jr: oh, is he talking about segwit? I thought it was a generic "old node" q.
160 2015-12-24T05:42:17 <Luke-Jr> midnightmagic: apparently; but in theory it could apply to the last two or so softforks if we had wanted it to
161 2015-12-24T05:45:23 <midnightmagic> I don't know enough about segwit to be able to say anything about old miner compatibility
162 2015-12-24T05:45:28 * midnightmagic backs slowly away and sips coffee
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239 2015-12-24T09:58:58 <nkuttler> i think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/8e4578a prevents me from sending a tx when my local blockchain isn't fully synced? shouldn't i be able to override that?
240 2015-12-24T09:59:59 <nkuttler> i'm trying to spend cltv locked coins
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242 2015-12-24T10:02:32 <nkuttler> actually, never mind
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436 2015-12-24T19:06:02 <phantomcircuit> Taek, historically miners who failed to implement softfork logic have lost money after the fork triggered
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