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 96 2015-12-25T03:22:57  <jl2012> I'm designing address format for segwit. Do you know any altcoin address design allows variable address length?
 97 2015-12-25T03:24:03  <Luke-Jr> almost as a rule, altcoins are not innovative
 98 2015-12-25T03:27:38  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: potentially useful thread: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2013-May/002588.html
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100 2015-12-25T03:29:31  <jl2012> Thanks. It seems there is an altcoin with addresses starting as BW- , but I forgot its name
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107 2015-12-25T03:41:37  <jl2012> Luke-Jr: you design will have 45 characters for 160bit. A witness program could be as long as 328bit, that will become around 90 characters
108 2015-12-25T03:43:27  <Luke-Jr> I'm not suggesting using it as-is necessarily
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110 2015-12-25T03:43:38  <jl2012> maybe due to less characters used and stronger checksum
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140 2015-12-25T06:12:03  <maaku> There is absolutely no reason to have an address format for segwit. it destroys one of the primary benefits of the design of segwit. why push this?
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144 2015-12-25T06:21:31  <jcorgan> was kinda wondering about that myself
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147 2015-12-25T06:35:32  <maaku> jcorgan: I posted a longer complaint on the bip draft : https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/267#issuecomment-167200141
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156 2015-12-25T07:42:09  <Luke-Jr> maaku: what? how do p2pkh addresses work fine for segwit?
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159 2015-12-25T07:47:59  <maaku> Luke-Jr: use the p2pkh script as the redeem script
160 2015-12-25T07:48:50  <Luke-Jr> huh?
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162 2015-12-25T07:50:10  <Luke-Jr> sending to a p2pkh address in any way other than scriptPubKey=<whatever it is now>, is invalid
163 2015-12-25T07:50:17  <Luke-Jr> might as well be burning bitcoins
164 2015-12-25T07:50:51  <maaku> Luke-Jr: you are being far too pedantic here
165 2015-12-25T07:51:00  <Luke-Jr> …
166 2015-12-25T07:51:25  <Luke-Jr> NOT being pedantic here, BREAKS backward compatibility
167 2015-12-25T07:51:53  <maaku> new addresses break compatibility too
168 2015-12-25T07:52:03  <Luke-Jr> new addresses are stupid, I agree with that
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216 2015-12-25T10:21:15  <jl2012> Luke-Jr, unfortunately, most people are still using addresses. Not providing a new address format won't change this fact
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218 2015-12-25T10:25:02  <jl2012> and I don't see how bitcoin could be burnt (unless an attack), as no existing wallet would be able to create any type of scriptPubKey based on the new address
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220 2015-12-25T10:27:11  <jl2012> maaku: I think something like AES is the robust deterministic permutation algorithm you want
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222 2015-12-25T10:27:55  <maaku> jl2012: but now you're back to the giant checksum
223 2015-12-25T10:28:22  <maaku> oh wait, maybe not. i was thinking abou that wrong...
224 2015-12-25T10:28:38  <jl2012> <1-byte address version><x-byte checksum><y-byte encrypted payload>
225 2015-12-25T10:29:07  <jl2012> checksum = hash(address version|payload)
226 2015-12-25T10:29:29  <jl2012> encrypted payload = AES(payload, checksum)
227 2015-12-25T10:30:45  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: why not encode a payment request instead?
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230 2015-12-25T10:31:32  <jl2012> Luke-Jr: payment request includes scriptPubKey, isn't it?
231 2015-12-25T10:32:02  <Luke-Jr> yes, includes
232 2015-12-25T10:32:24  <jl2012> so it goes back to the question of how to safely encode a scriptPubKey
233 2015-12-25T10:32:45  <maaku> jl2012: the counter-argument to your BIP is that werever you were imagining using this new address type, you should just be using a serialized payment request instead
234 2015-12-25T10:33:20  <maaku> jl2012: the payment request just serializes it as a byte string
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236 2015-12-25T10:36:26  <jl2012> maaku: none of the services I used support BIP70, so they can't even generate a payment request
237 2015-12-25T10:36:53  <maaku> jl2012: they will have to be updated to use your new address format. why not have them support bip 70 instead?
238 2015-12-25T10:37:06  <btcdrak> ^
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241 2015-12-25T10:39:19  <Luke-Jr> ^^
242 2015-12-25T10:39:53  <jl2012> what is the shortest possible length for a serialized payment request, encoded in base64, for a scriptPubKey of 34 bytes?
243 2015-12-25T10:40:47  <jl2012> to make it useful like an address, it must be copy-and-paste-able
244 2015-12-25T10:41:14  <Luke-Jr> copy-and-paste works with any length :D
245 2015-12-25T10:41:49  <jl2012> ok, but no checksum?
246 2015-12-25T10:42:39  <Luke-Jr> your ASCII encoding can add that
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248 2015-12-25T10:43:02  <Luke-Jr> payment requests require only their creation time and output script
249 2015-12-25T10:43:12  <jl2012> Luke-Jr: that becomes a new address format, again
250 2015-12-25T10:43:14  <Luke-Jr> I don't know how much overhead protobuf adds, but probably about 10 bytes
251 2015-12-25T10:43:36  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: fine, so it's a new address format, but at least it's BIP70-based
252 2015-12-25T10:44:24  <Luke-Jr> bonus feature: people with SSL certs can sign their new addresses
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261 2015-12-25T10:46:36  <jl2012> Luke-Jr: I don't think BIP70 is designed to be used as C&P. And with signing, that means the "address" will be extremely long
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264 2015-12-25T10:47:41  <jl2012> Actually I don't think it is really an "address". It's a block of data
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268 2015-12-25T10:49:17  <Luke-Jr> "with signing" what?
269 2015-12-25T10:49:43  <jl2012> " people with SSL certs can sign their new addresses"
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272 2015-12-25T10:51:24  <jl2012> that means the user has to C&P the signature too?
273 2015-12-25T10:53:59  <Luke-Jr> no
274 2015-12-25T10:54:07  <Luke-Jr> it would be included in the address
275 2015-12-25T10:54:53  <jl2012> and the "address" will be very long as it contains a signature
276 2015-12-25T10:55:00  <Luke-Jr> perhaps
277 2015-12-25T10:55:08  <jl2012> like a block of PGP data
278 2015-12-25T10:55:15  <jl2012> that's not address
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281 2015-12-25T10:57:43  <Luke-Jr> perhaps it won't get used
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283 2015-12-25T10:58:53  <jl2012> and in merchant's standpoint, upgrade to a new address is easier than upgrade to BIP70
284 2015-12-25T10:59:14  <jl2012> a new address format won't change their existing UI, at least
285 2015-12-25T11:00:45  <Luke-Jr> …
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287 2015-12-25T11:01:05  <Luke-Jr> neither would BIP 70 in this use
288 2015-12-25T11:01:44  <jl2012> BIP70 without checksum or signature is more insecure than address
289 2015-12-25T11:02:45  * Luke-Jr facepalms
290 2015-12-25T11:02:52  <Luke-Jr> [10:42:39] <Luke-Jr> your ASCII encoding can add that
291 2015-12-25T11:03:13  <jl2012> 18:43 <jl2012> Luke-Jr: that becomes a new address format, again
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293 2015-12-25T11:04:09  * Luke-Jr done
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316 2015-12-25T12:45:34  <jl2012> maaku: does Damm error correction work with Base58?
317 2015-12-25T12:47:00  <jl2012> need a quasigroup of order 58?
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321 2015-12-25T12:51:59  <jl2012> I prefer 58 than 32, as the security is better with the same number of charaters
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323 2015-12-25T12:53:37  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: 58 is a pain to implement
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333 2015-12-25T13:08:09  <jl2012> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012365X06004225
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435 2015-12-25T17:43:15  <maaku> jl2012: sure but why would you want to? base58 is an absolute mess
436 2015-12-25T17:44:57  <jl2012> to keep the length below 80
437 2015-12-25T17:47:26  <maaku> then base64, but base64 is severly lacking in accessibility
438 2015-12-25T17:47:42  <maaku> you've got mutually exclusive requirements here, which is the issue
439 2015-12-25T17:49:10  <maaku> if you want people reading off addresses, speaking them over the phone, copying them down, or typing them, do not use base58, base64, or anything that requires case sensitivity or extra symbols. that's the argument for base32
440 2015-12-25T17:49:48  <maaku> (and between base58 and base64, there are very strong technical reasons to prefer base64)
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453 2015-12-25T18:12:53  <jl2012> maybe just forget my BIP first. A simple modification could be made for existing P2PKH address, by replacing the address version byte 0x00 with 0x19. The resulting address will look completely different, starting with "B", and has constant length of 34
454 2015-12-25T18:13:47  <jl2012> An address of this type indicates a P2PKH in a native v0 witness program
455 2015-12-25T18:14:32  <jl2012> Since P2PKH is still >90% of the tx volume, this should solve most problem
456 2015-12-25T18:15:03  <jl2012> minimal change, not better nor worse than existing address
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463 2015-12-25T18:28:36  <jl2012> for more complicated things, we may need a different scheme. Has anyone proposed a QR code BIP?
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474 2015-12-25T18:57:04  <phantomcircuit> jl2012, i was actually thinking that we might want to change bitcoin core to produce p2sh addresses by default
475 2015-12-25T18:57:53  <jl2012> the future is segwit, no reason to further promote p2sh
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484 2015-12-25T19:09:57  <genac> sup
485 2015-12-25T19:11:43  <Diablo-D3> Ive never heard of segwit, so, surely, it can't be the future
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498 2015-12-25T19:30:34  <phantomcircuit> jl2012, sw is basically the same construct as p2sh actually
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500 2015-12-25T19:31:00  <phantomcircuit> the original p2sh proposal probably should have been sw but we didn't have any experience with the concept at the time
501 2015-12-25T19:31:25  <phantomcircuit> almost certainly the only reason anybody can even propose such a change now is because of elements alpha
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552 2015-12-25T21:34:41  <CodeShark> sw is p2sh (except that the scriptSig is committed separately and is ignored for the purposes of txid)
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555 2015-12-25T21:38:22  <CodeShark> we don't need to support p2pkh in segwit - we can still support sending to p2pkh addresses, but there's no reason to try to migrate existing p2pkh addresses to segwit
556 2015-12-25T21:39:18  <CodeShark> we can't change earlier blocks so there's nothing to be gained
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558 2015-12-25T21:42:21  <CodeShark> if people want to migrate to segwit, let them generate new keys :)
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563 2015-12-25T21:53:29  <CodeShark> bitcoin core's wallet can continue to support internal p2pkh addresses as legacy - but their use should be strongly discouraged and only allowed for the sake of making it easy for people to migrate their existing funds
564 2015-12-25T21:55:23  <CodeShark> and ultimately phased out entirely
565 2015-12-25T21:55:47  <CodeShark> eventually perhaps another soft fork can make everything use sw
566 2015-12-25T21:55:59  <CodeShark> way later on down the line, once deployment is complete
567 2015-12-25T21:56:42  <CodeShark> or perhaps not ;)
568 2015-12-25T21:58:18  <CodeShark> I retract my last statement regarding elimination of p2pkh support at the consensus layer - only at the wallet layer
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570 2015-12-25T21:59:18  <CodeShark> economic forces should suffice - no need to prohibit people from using p2pkh
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573 2015-12-25T22:09:44  <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, the core wallet needs a huge amount of attention
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575 2015-12-25T22:10:04  <phantomcircuit> there's a bunch of components in it which nobody else has even come close to matching
576 2015-12-25T22:10:18  <CodeShark> I personally think it should be broken off into a separate project ;)
577 2015-12-25T22:10:23  <phantomcircuit> but there's also stuff that's really annoying (such as using bdb)
578 2015-12-25T22:11:14  <CodeShark> which components, phantomcircuit?
579 2015-12-25T22:11:49  <phantomcircuit> CodeShark, coin selection for one
580 2015-12-25T22:11:58  <phantomcircuit> although thinking about it i haven't looked at how you did that
581 2015-12-25T22:12:01  <CodeShark> I've been supporting that for like over a year ;)
582 2015-12-25T22:12:58  <CodeShark> you mean manual coin selection? or the knapsack problem thing?
583 2015-12-25T22:13:09  <CodeShark> the latter I admittedly have not attempted to optimize too much
584 2015-12-25T22:13:28  <phantomcircuit> i mean the knapsack solver
585 2015-12-25T22:13:38  <CodeShark> ah, right
586 2015-12-25T22:14:01  <phantomcircuit> it's not really fast in core but it's fast enough and comes up with a good enough solution
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588 2015-12-25T22:14:34  <CodeShark> yeah, it would be easy to lift the algo
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590 2015-12-25T22:15:28  <CodeShark> I might just do that ;)
591 2015-12-25T22:17:31  <CodeShark> jonathan hope gave a presentation on this in hong kong and apparently is working on some libraries (threekey.solutions)
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599 2015-12-25T22:33:48  <CodeShark> it's also related to the problems of defragmentation and change minimization
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601 2015-12-25T22:34:29  <CodeShark> coin selection is not always sufficient - sometimes you need to create denominated outputs up front
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603 2015-12-25T22:36:24  <CodeShark> I agree, phantomcircuit - these problems haven't received enough attention
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605 2015-12-25T22:43:08  <jcorgan> and fees always mess it up anyway
606 2015-12-25T22:44:26  <CodeShark> yes, then we get into replacement schemes
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608 2015-12-25T22:45:06  <CodeShark> i.e. batching sends...or replacing mempool transactions with new ones that combine more inputs and outputs
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610 2015-12-25T22:45:34  <CodeShark> RBF, etc..
611 2015-12-25T22:48:32  *** Peter_Geschel has joined #bitcoin-dev
612 2015-12-25T22:50:00  <CodeShark> payment channels might alleviate much of the complexity since presumably channels will tend to be created at certain denominations and defragmentation need only occur after channel closes
613 2015-12-25T22:51:07  <CodeShark> or at least, the usability isn't severely impacted
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615 2015-12-25T22:56:51  <CodeShark> and they certainly help with the fee stuff since exit/close transactions have essentially a predetermined size
616 2015-12-25T23:00:02  <CodeShark> and the fee can be arbitrarily set to anything...to be paid by either party
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618 2015-12-25T23:07:30  <CodeShark> it's still a little tricky how to allow either party to add more fees without requiring the other's signature
619 2015-12-25T23:08:09  <CodeShark> would be a very useful mechanism to have
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623 2015-12-25T23:17:41  <CodeShark> SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY is probably suboptimal in several respects
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625 2015-12-25T23:19:00  <CodeShark> not probably - IS
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