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  5 2015-12-28T00:09:11  <Lyth0s> can any of you smart guys help me estimate bitcoin mining hashes/second into FLOPS?
  6 2015-12-28T00:09:32  <sipa> it's easy: 0
  7 2015-12-28T00:09:43  <sipa> bitcoin mining does not use any floating point operations
  8 2015-12-28T00:10:05  <sipa> so measuring it in FLOPS (which is floating point operations per second) is meaningless/0
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 10 2015-12-28T00:11:10  <Lyth0s> didn't gmaxwell recently publish some sort of estimation of hashes to flops
 11 2015-12-28T00:11:14  <Lyth0s> in terms of processing power
 12 2015-12-28T00:11:32  <sipa> that would seriously surprise me
 13 2015-12-28T00:12:06  <sipa> bitcoin asics cannot do anything else, so for all intends and purposes, their FLOPS rating is 0
 14 2015-12-28T00:12:28  <sipa> and the other way around, using general purpose hardware (with nonzero FLOPS) will be pointless for bitcoin mining
 15 2015-12-28T00:13:13  <Lyth0s> im probably confusing things
 16 2015-12-28T00:13:29  <Lyth0s> is this article completely bullshit? http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-network-out-muscles-top-500-supercomputers/
 17 2015-12-28T00:14:47  <PRab> "Two, the estimates used to convert hashes to flops (resulting in about 12,700 flops per hash) date to 2011, before ASIC devices became the norm for bitcoin mining. ASICs don't handle flops at all, so the current comparison is very rough." is key
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 20 2015-12-28T00:15:58  <Lyth0s> hmm so there is no way to compare supercomputers to bitcoin miners in terms of processing power then?
 21 2015-12-28T00:16:02  <Lyth0s> I know ASICS are specific
 22 2015-12-28T00:16:27  <Lyth0s> but what if you had a supercomputer try to mine bitcoins and you knew how many FLOPS it could do
 23 2015-12-28T00:16:46  <Lyth0s> wouldn't there be a good FLOPS:Hashes/sec ratio that would apply to most supercomputers?
 24 2015-12-28T00:17:06  <Lyth0s> or would the ratio not hold across multiple supercomputers?
 25 2015-12-28T00:17:31  <jcorgan> the ratio is meaningless; hashing is not a floating-point operation
 26 2015-12-28T00:17:38  <sipa> Lyth0s: there is no supercomputer in the world that could make a dent in the hashrate
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 29 2015-12-28T00:18:48  <Lyth0s> sipa yeah I'm aware of that. I'd just like to be able to tell my buddies something like "The Bitcoin network has more processing power than the top x supercomputers in the world combined"
 30 2015-12-28T00:18:54  <Lyth0s> but I would need a good way to calculate that
 31 2015-12-28T00:19:03  <sipa> Lyth0s: it would be a total lie
 32 2015-12-28T00:19:09  <Lyth0s> yeah I see
 33 2015-12-28T00:19:16  <sipa> the bitcoin network has zero processing power that it relevant in that statement
 34 2015-12-28T00:19:36  <Lyth0s> well it does in mining bitcoins
 35 2015-12-28T00:19:45  <Lyth0s> application specific, but processing power none the less
 36 2015-12-28T00:19:55  <sipa> then you should express it in Watts
 37 2015-12-28T00:20:04  <sipa> as the computation itself is not comparable
 38 2015-12-28T00:20:08  <Lyth0s> I see
 39 2015-12-28T00:20:14  <Lyth0s> what about in transistors?
 40 2015-12-28T00:20:23  <Lyth0s> someone in #bitcoin was talking about that
 41 2015-12-28T00:20:56  <jcorgan> you seem determined to come up with a number when there isn't one.  just make one up then.
 42 2015-12-28T00:21:24  <Lyth0s> I'm determined to find a way to compare them, not the same as determined to make shit up
 43 2015-12-28T00:22:30  <sipa> ;;nethash
 44 2015-12-28T00:22:31  <gribble> 862223310.092
 45 2015-12-28T00:23:11  <sipa> if you need a catchy statement, tell them that if the Bitcoin network would be doing SHA-1 instead of SHA-256, at the current hashrate, it would be finding a collision in SHA-1 every 16 days
 46 2015-12-28T00:23:37  <sipa> (but that would also require a ton of memory to store and compare the hashes, beyond what is reasonable)
 47 2015-12-28T00:23:56  <Lyth0s> ok thanks for your help sipa
 48 2015-12-28T00:24:13  <Lyth0s> I think I like your idea about comparing wattage in looking at energy consumed
 49 2015-12-28T00:25:12  <Lyth0s> SHA-1 collisions is going to be way above the intellect level of the people I'm going to talk to
 50 2015-12-28T00:25:42  <sipa> how about this
 51 2015-12-28T00:25:52  <sipa> it computes a billion billion hashes per second
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 53 2015-12-28T00:26:40  <jcorgan> how many library of congresses is that?
 54 2015-12-28T00:26:48  <MrHodl> lol
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 59 2015-12-28T00:31:45  <Lyth0s> any predictions on when we will hit a yottahash? :O
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 61 2015-12-28T00:32:59  <Lyth0s> we're going to need bigger SI prefixes
 62 2015-12-28T00:34:21  <sipa> no we won't
 63 2015-12-28T00:34:28  <sipa> not any time soon :)
 64 2015-12-28T00:34:45  <Lyth0s> 10 years?
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474 2015-12-28T17:06:38  <morcos> Are we proposing using ISM for segwit then and delaying version bits?
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490 2015-12-28T17:17:07  <phantomcircuit> morcos, ism?
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496 2015-12-28T17:27:50  <Luke-Jr> morcos: frankly, I prefer BIP16-style over ISM :/
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499 2015-12-28T17:31:34  <morcos> phantomcircuit: IsSuperMajority?
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501 2015-12-28T17:33:03  <sipa> morcos: not decided, i just need code that works now for a testnet
502 2015-12-28T17:33:13  <sipa> deployment can easily be changed to something else later
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504 2015-12-28T17:33:33  <sipa> Luke-Jr: as in: time based?
505 2015-12-28T17:33:46  <Luke-Jr> sipa: tag in coinbase
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507 2015-12-28T17:36:11  <sipa> heh
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510 2015-12-28T17:37:27  <Luke-Jr> otoh, maybe it's better than every software needs to update (eg, Eloipool, BFGMiner) with SegWit
511 2015-12-28T17:38:40  <jl2012> sipa: I left some comments for the commitment validation but seems they are gone after you refresh the branch
512 2015-12-28T17:39:09  <sipa> yeah, always comment on the PR, not on individual commits
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514 2015-12-28T17:39:33  <sipa> Luke-Jr: all software that selects its own transactions will need to uodate
515 2015-12-28T17:39:33  <jl2012> i'm still new to github
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517 2015-12-28T17:39:42  <sipa> (or of course, reject segwit)
518 2015-12-28T17:40:17  <jl2012> are segwit tx now nonstandard?
519 2015-12-28T17:40:28  <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, the last 2 or 3 softforks had no need for it though
520 2015-12-28T17:40:34  <Luke-Jr> it was merely bumping a number in the code
521 2015-12-28T17:40:56  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: basically nothing is nonstandard now
522 2015-12-28T17:41:04  <Luke-Jr> non-IsStandard*
523 2015-12-28T17:41:56  <jl2012> do we need to turn it into non-IsStandard? like BIP113?
524 2015-12-28T17:42:10  <sipa> Luke-Jr: they are efectively non-standard currently, due to the superfluous pushes rule
525 2015-12-28T17:42:23  <sipa> (enforced via a script flag, not via isstansard)
526 2015-12-28T17:42:47  <Luke-Jr> sipa: oh? I thought that only checked superfluous pushes in scriptSig, not scriptPubKey?
527 2015-12-28T17:42:58  <Luke-Jr> otoh, I guess it would be difficult to differentiate
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529 2015-12-28T17:43:13  <sipa> Luke-Jr: there is a push-only rule for scriptSig
530 2015-12-28T17:43:18  <morcos> sipa
531 2015-12-28T17:43:28  <morcos> oops.  sipa: is there a PR somehwere
532 2015-12-28T17:43:36  <sipa> and there is a only-one-element-on-the-stack-after-evaluation rule
533 2015-12-28T17:43:42  <morcos> i was just reading through your branch and was wondering if you wanted comments and where to give them
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535 2015-12-28T17:43:54  <sipa> morcos: oh, there is no PR yet, of course
536 2015-12-28T17:43:58  <Luke-Jr> sipa: is that not the case for SegWit?
537 2015-12-28T17:44:01  <sipa> there will be one this year
538 2015-12-28T17:44:12  <jl2012> a native witness program is a single push in scriptPubKey, so there is no superfluous push
539 2015-12-28T17:44:21  <sipa> ha!
540 2015-12-28T17:44:24  <sipa> good point
541 2015-12-28T17:44:40  <jl2012> same for P2SH, i guess
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543 2015-12-28T17:45:51  <sipa> P2SH is older than the cleanstack rule
544 2015-12-28T17:46:09  <sipa> and, no segwit will fail cleanstack
545 2015-12-28T17:46:22  <sipa> unless its execution stack is empty
546 2015-12-28T17:46:39  <sipa> which would imply an anyonecanspend (even post segwit)
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548 2015-12-28T17:47:32  <sipa> nvm
549 2015-12-28T17:47:34  <sipa> i'm confused
550 2015-12-28T17:48:21  <jayd3e> why can't I find main() anywhere in init.cpp?
551 2015-12-28T17:48:36  <sipa> it's in bitcoind.cpp
552 2015-12-28T17:48:46  <sipa> (also, #bitcoin-core-dev for that)
553 2015-12-28T17:49:20  <morcos> sipa: so should i hold off on nit level code comments for now then?  and if not, where would you like them
554 2015-12-28T17:49:22  <jayd3e> kk cool
555 2015-12-28T17:49:55  <sipa> jl2012: so, you're right; this is annoying
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561 2015-12-28T17:54:30  <sipa> jl2012: making witness programs use an opcode is one way (though adds an unnecessary byte)
562 2015-12-28T17:55:06  <jl2012> what is the biggest problem with not making it nonstandard?
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564 2015-12-28T17:56:46  <Luke-Jr> jl2012: the code is already out there..
565 2015-12-28T17:57:14  <Luke-Jr> sipa: the version could be a separate push.. that doesn't inflate it until we get past some version number
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567 2015-12-28T17:57:41  <sipa> Luke-Jr: that seems reasonable
568 2015-12-28T17:57:50  <sipa> it's also more flexible
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571 2015-12-28T18:01:10  <jl2012> so v17 or above will take one more byte. When we reach that number, and if we really want to save a byte, we can switch back to the current format with softfok
572 2015-12-28T18:01:40  <jl2012> Luke-Jr: excellent!
573 2015-12-28T18:02:45  <Luke-Jr> hopefully we'll have hardforked by then anyway
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577 2015-12-28T18:04:11  <jl2012> even a hardfork may not fix a problem like this, to minimize the impact on SPV nodes
578 2015-12-28T18:07:14  <veyor> Hey all! I’m newish to exploring BitCoins in general (still need to setup a wallet), fascinated with the live transaction data. I’d love to showcase transactions being “solved” or unverified as they hit around the world on a web page (also helps me learn this stuff). Is blockchain.info the preferred API for tapping into the live data? Any other alternatives you enjoy (or do I need to make my own?)
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581 2015-12-28T18:07:49  <sipa> veyor: this channel is for development of bitcoin's protocol and implementation itself
582 2015-12-28T18:08:07  <veyor> aha. I’m sorry about that. I’ll move this conversation. Have a great day
583 2015-12-28T18:08:29  <jl2012> it's unlikely to reach v17 in 10 years, anyway. New script system should include OP_RETURNTRUE, which allow softfork of any new OP codes. So we don't need a new script version for every new code: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106586.0
584 2015-12-28T18:08:57  <sipa> jl2012: alternatively, we can introduce version bytes inside the witness script too
585 2015-12-28T18:09:28  <sipa> veyor: though in general people here will frown upon using a centralized service for such data, as you can just run a bitcoind yourself, and get the verified data directly from the p2p network
586 2015-12-28T18:09:51  <sipa> jl2012: so, agree
587 2015-12-28T18:10:00  <sipa> Luke-Jr: thanks for that suggestion; will implement
588 2015-12-28T18:10:17  <jl2012> sipa: ok.....so basically it's infinity. Luke-Jr is Bitcoin script ninja
589 2015-12-28T18:10:26  <veyor> thanks for that. “bitcoind” is the magic word of the day. :D
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600 2015-12-28T18:26:22  <jl2012> sipa: just in theory: with the version byte separated, if the hash of a v1 witness program is all-0, it becomes invalid
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602 2015-12-28T18:26:45  <sipa> jl2012: i'm perfectly fine with that :)
603 2015-12-28T18:28:14  <jl2012> just to confirm: the script engine will first validate with existing semantic, and only if it passes, it will move on to SW semantic
604 2015-12-28T18:30:02  <sipa> yup
605 2015-12-28T18:30:14  <sipa> the SW logic only introduces new "return false"s
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657 2015-12-28T20:17:10  <morg> Increase the blocksize!
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