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8 2016-01-01T00:19:33 <Lyth0s> hey sipa you still around
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73 2016-01-01T02:32:24 <kanzure> is it accurate to say that soft-forks could be decided by miners through out-of-band communication?
74 2016-01-01T02:32:38 <sipa> i'd say no
75 2016-01-01T02:32:41 <kanzure> (er, soft-fork activation)
76 2016-01-01T02:32:54 <sipa> miners can out of band decide to enforce more rules than strictly demanded by the full node network
77 2016-01-01T02:33:16 <kanzure> how is this different from soft-fork activation?
78 2016-01-01T02:33:17 <sipa> but softforking is more than that: it's also letting (some) full nodes know they can start enforcing a new rule
79 2016-01-01T02:33:42 <sipa> if you're just talking about miners enforcing an additional rule, they can also undo that without damage
80 2016-01-01T02:33:55 <sipa> undoing an actual softfork that has full nodes enforcing it, requires a hardfork
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84 2016-01-01T02:56:33 <Lyth0s_> hey sipa I didn't recongize that you were pieter wuille
85 2016-01-01T02:57:18 <sipa> :)
86 2016-01-01T02:57:49 <Lyth0s_> thanks for helping me out with the ideas around flops vs hashes yesterday
87 2016-01-01T02:57:57 <Lyth0s_> er a few days ago
88 2016-01-01T02:58:09 <sipa> yw :)
89 2016-01-01T02:58:12 <Lyth0s_> so how did you initially come up with the idea of SW?
90 2016-01-01T02:58:42 <Lyth0s_> like the first moment the idea spawned in your mind
91 2016-01-01T02:58:45 <sipa> Lyth0s_: many people involved; i mostly did fleshing out some details and implementation
92 2016-01-01T02:58:46 <Lyth0s_> first*
93 2016-01-01T02:59:01 <Lyth0s_> ah I see
94 2016-01-01T02:59:15 <sipa> Lyth0s_: elements alpha (a sidechain) has had segregated witness from the start, suggested by gmaxwell
95 2016-01-01T02:59:26 <sipa> Lyth0s_: Luke-Jr discovered it was possible through a soft fork
96 2016-01-01T02:59:53 <Lyth0s_> interesting
97 2016-01-01T03:00:05 <Lyth0s_> do you have a whitepaper for newbs that you suggest I read?
98 2016-01-01T03:00:09 <sipa> kanzure: so i'd say that the 'signaling' part of a softfork is not the actual fork; the fork is full nodes deciding to act on it
99 2016-01-01T03:00:19 <Lyth0s_> not full of technicals but the basic ideas
100 2016-01-01T03:00:24 <sipa> Lyth0s_: nope, too little time :)
101 2016-01-01T03:00:30 <sipa> though there are BIPs in progress
102 2016-01-01T03:00:42 <Lyth0s_> ok gotcha, stick with the important stuff then :D
103 2016-01-01T03:02:00 <kanzure> sipa: context was that someone was trying to convince me that pow decides soft-forks.... (reddit stuff)
104 2016-01-01T03:02:25 <Lyth0s_> I'm no expert, but miners rely on nodes
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106 2016-01-01T03:02:37 <kanzure> i mean there's activation signaling and stuff, but that's not something computed by pow really.
107 2016-01-01T03:04:18 <Lyth0s_> nodes have to interpret soft fork information, so if they don't I dont think the miners blocks would be useful (for example with SW)
108 2016-01-01T03:04:24 <kanzure> it's off-topic but here's a link anyway https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3yyvmp/they_think_satoshi_was_wrong/cyhytbc?context=3
109 2016-01-01T03:04:38 <Lyth0s_> let me know if I'm wrong though
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138 2016-01-01T05:26:13 <kenrestivo> who's pow?
139 2016-01-01T05:26:22 <kenrestivo> proof of work?
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144 2016-01-01T05:43:40 <gentoognuhurd> kenrestivo: #bitcoin
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148 2016-01-01T06:07:21 <kenrestivo> aye
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341 2016-01-01T16:14:06 <kanzure> i think bip1 needs to be clarified, especially an emphasis on the responsibility of the bip author to figure out what the existing critiism is, and also to clear up the confusion (in the bip text itself) regarding what an initial email to bitcoin-dev is meant to be about (it says to gather feedback or see if anyone has heard of a similar idea before, but in practice what we get are people attempting to send entire bips)
342 2016-01-01T16:14:25 <kanzure> i'm not sure if these changes have been proposed before, and if they were then i definitely don't know what the feedback was :-)
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344 2016-01-01T16:15:28 <kanzure> oh i should clarify that, specifically, the reason why i think there is this confusion is because bip1 is slightly ambiguous about the purpose of the initial email. it says "the best place to send the bip is the mailing list" but it also says a few other things about what the first email should ideally be.... and it's sort of contradictory in this aspect.
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370 2016-01-01T16:54:22 <maaku> kanzure: yeah my understanding (and what I followed for 68/112/113) was that the initial email was -not- a bip draft but rather a general discussion of the concept
371 2016-01-01T16:54:44 <kanzure> if you read bip1 i think you'll agree with me that this is insufficiently clear
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377 2016-01-01T17:00:15 <maaku> i do agree
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391 2016-01-01T17:25:20 <kanzure> maaku: i am updating the text. i am confused about this line: "Once a BIP has been accepted, the reference implementation must be completed.". elsewhere it seemed more that an implementation must be provided in the first place.
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398 2016-01-01T17:34:59 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: the Accepted status probably would be better named "Completed"
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400 2016-01-01T17:35:13 <Luke-Jr> ie, the Draft is now Complete and ready for implementation and consideration
401 2016-01-01T17:35:33 <kanzure> i don't want to change the diagram thing
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404 2016-01-01T17:36:32 <Luke-Jr> probably best to just do a BIP 2 IMO
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414 2016-01-01T17:47:51 <kanzure> maaku: Luke-Jr: just posted https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/269
415 2016-01-01T17:48:32 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: NACK any mention of Core
416 2016-01-01T17:48:40 <Luke-Jr> BIP is intentionally independent of any given project
417 2016-01-01T17:50:17 <kanzure> well it previously mentioned "Bitcoin issue tracker"........
418 2016-01-01T17:50:38 <Luke-Jr> well, I still think a BIP 2 would be appropriate :p
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421 2016-01-01T17:51:13 <Luke-Jr> this is adding way too much already
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423 2016-01-01T17:51:15 <kanzure> can you clarify your NACK regarding preference for "Bitcoin issue tracker" vs "Bitcoin Core issue tracker" ? perhaps removing the sentene is OK?
424 2016-01-01T17:51:21 <kanzure> *sentence
425 2016-01-01T17:51:37 <kanzure> i mean, it seems like a good idea to recommend "not making a BIP" especially when a BIP is unwarranted
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427 2016-01-01T17:52:03 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: "relevant issue tracker" sounds like it would work
428 2016-01-01T17:52:10 <kanzure> Luke-Jr: would you ACK that ?
429 2016-01-01T17:52:29 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: I'd have to read over the diff first. GitHub displays it crappily
430 2016-01-01T17:52:44 <Luke-Jr> besides, it's genjix and/or gmaxwell that would need to ACK it..
431 2016-01-01T17:53:32 <kanzure> whatever, i think you are a good substitute, i'm sure they would have similar concerns
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525 2016-01-01T20:22:05 <jl2012> how can I turn off *any* tx standardness check in bitcoin core? So the only thing I check is consensus rules?
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538 2016-01-01T20:44:46 <phantomcircuit> jl2012, fRequireStandard
539 2016-01-01T20:45:02 <sipa> jl2012: and change the defaukt verification flags
540 2016-01-01T20:45:03 <petertodd> phantomcircuit: though that's still missing some non-consensus checks, like nValue != 0
541 2016-01-01T20:45:13 <sipa> and set the minimum relay to 0
542 2016-01-01T20:45:21 <sipa> and allow free relay
543 2016-01-01T20:45:30 <sipa> and set mempool limits to infinity
544 2016-01-01T20:45:41 <petertodd> and turn it up to 11
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546 2016-01-01T20:46:40 <sipa> and set the max data carrier size to infinity
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548 2016-01-01T20:47:00 <sipa> and then still a few policy rules that prevent oversized transactionsz high sigopd, ...
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