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51 2016-01-03T02:26:33 <rusty> kanzure, btcdrak: hmm, so Marco Falke doesn't understand what a soft fork is. What do we do about his post sitting in the mod queue?
52 2016-01-03T02:26:57 <kanzure> reject
53 2016-01-03T02:27:11 <kanzure> ask him to rewrite once he reads up on soft-forks (see bip99)
54 2016-01-03T02:28:30 <rusty> kanzure: OK.
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56 2016-01-03T02:30:08 <PROTAX> has anyone had experience with Vaultoro? Is it a scam?
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290 2016-01-03T12:57:02 <GamerSg> will disabling of serving bloom filters be in 0.12?
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318 2016-01-03T13:56:04 <Luke-Jr> GamerSg: #bitcoin
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349 2016-01-03T15:10:33 <jtoomim> I would like to reserve a protocol services bit for use with blocktorrent. Recommendations?
350 2016-01-03T15:11:45 <sipa> my suggestion would be to first write it as a proxy, which can run over its own network, and to which you can connect using the regular p2p protocol
351 2016-01-03T15:11:56 <sipa> like BlueMatt's relay protocol
352 2016-01-03T15:12:46 <sipa> that means it's automatically compatible with all software
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354 2016-01-03T15:15:42 <jtoomim> i want access to the contents of mempool
355 2016-01-03T15:16:05 <jtoomim> that means it may be a bit easier to write as a module inside bitcoind
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357 2016-01-03T15:16:19 <jtoomim> rather than have to keep a copy of the contents of mempool
358 2016-01-03T15:16:24 <sipa> hmm, how can that work?
359 2016-01-03T15:16:36 <sipa> the mempool cannot guarantee synchronization
360 2016-01-03T15:16:40 <sipa> unless you control it yourself
361 2016-01-03T15:17:02 <jtoomim> i intend to have a two-tier system for storing transactions
362 2016-01-03T15:17:10 <jtoomim> so that we treat the mempool basically as a cache
363 2016-01-03T15:17:26 <sipa> how do you know what is in the peer's mempool?
364 2016-01-03T15:17:34 <jtoomim> if a transaction is in mempool, great, we copy it to the per-block blocktorrent storage just in case mempool evicts it, then proceed
365 2016-01-03T15:18:00 <jtoomim> each peer's mempool? we don't necessarily. if they need it, and we don't guess correctly, then they ask
366 2016-01-03T15:18:14 <sipa> does that not introduce extra roundtrips?
367 2016-01-03T15:18:17 <jtoomim> isn't there a bloom filter in Core somewhere that tells us when a peer is likely to have a transaction?
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369 2016-01-03T15:18:25 <jtoomim> yes, if you guess incorrectly
370 2016-01-03T15:18:35 <jtoomim> but with blocktorrent, most of the traffic is going to be over low-latency links
371 2016-01-03T15:18:54 <jtoomim> and you can guess correctly a lot of the time
372 2016-01-03T15:19:03 <jtoomim> e.g. using bloom filters
373 2016-01-03T15:19:17 <jtoomim> or bitmaps
374 2016-01-03T15:19:23 <sipa> you can guess, but the cost is large is you're wrong
375 2016-01-03T15:19:25 <jtoomim> that are filled out based on inv messages
376 2016-01-03T15:19:34 <jtoomim> well, the cost is one round trip if you're wrong
377 2016-01-03T15:19:46 <jtoomim> which i think will be 100 ms in the typical case
378 2016-01-03T15:19:55 <jtoomim> since we can find the low-latency peers and prefer them easily
379 2016-01-03T15:20:04 <jtoomim> i think 100 ms is not "large", but more like "medium"
380 2016-01-03T15:20:17 <sipa> in that time you can transfer a full block if the link is 100 Mbit/s
381 2016-01-03T15:20:32 <jtoomim> not with the current MSG_BLOCK interface
382 2016-01-03T15:20:34 <jtoomim> TCP is slow
383 2016-01-03T15:20:41 <jtoomim> if we used UDP, then yeah
384 2016-01-03T15:20:44 <sipa> fair enough, improvements are certainly possible
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387 2016-01-03T15:20:55 <sipa> what i'm getting at is: how is superior to the relay protocol?
388 2016-01-03T15:20:57 *** murch is now known as murch_
389 2016-01-03T15:21:04 <jtoomim> i'm trying to write blocktorrent in a way that it will have good performance for very large blocks while allowing optimizations for small blocks
390 2016-01-03T15:21:17 <jtoomim> so i will probably add a lot of code for blasting out information on small blocks without it being requested
391 2016-01-03T15:21:34 <jtoomim> and aiming for 20% of the data being sent redundantly and unnecessarily in order to reduce latency
392 2016-01-03T15:21:36 <sipa> if you want the system to work in an adverserial condition, it's the worst case that counts
393 2016-01-03T15:21:45 <jtoomim> and having that percentage controllable with a mapargs
394 2016-01-03T15:21:58 <jtoomim> yep, and i think that's one of the places where blocktorrent shines
395 2016-01-03T15:22:12 <jtoomim> since most of blocktorrent's advantages come from non-compression techniques
396 2016-01-03T15:22:21 <sipa> do you know how the relay protocol works?
397 2016-01-03T15:22:34 <sipa> BlueMatt's
398 2016-01-03T15:22:39 <jtoomim> i think so
399 2016-01-03T15:22:47 <jtoomim> you keep a record of the order in which each transaction is sent
400 2016-01-03T15:22:53 <sipa> it never needs a second transmission
401 2016-01-03T15:22:54 <jtoomim> and code each transaction as a lookup to that table
402 2016-01-03T15:22:55 <jtoomim> 2 bytes
403 2016-01-03T15:23:11 <sipa> because it has a guarantee about what the peer maintains
404 2016-01-03T15:23:14 <jtoomim> which results in fairly heavy memory usage per per
405 2016-01-03T15:23:23 <jtoomim> per peer
406 2016-01-03T15:23:26 <jtoomim> sorry, bad "e" key
407 2016-01-03T15:23:45 <sipa> yeah, it natually favors a hub-and-spoke model to reduce memory consumption (or at least: to share it)
408 2016-01-03T15:24:09 <sipa> but if you're going for a probabilistic mechanism, where you try to guess, why not use IBLT immediately?
409 2016-01-03T15:24:16 <jtoomim> i think that no-round-trips is a good design feature for small blocks with low-latency, but i want to build a protocol that is strong where the existing proposals are weak
410 2016-01-03T15:24:27 <jtoomim> and isn't too weak where the existing protocols are strong
411 2016-01-03T15:24:48 <jtoomim> so what i'm trying to build is a system in which the guesses aren't important
412 2016-01-03T15:25:07 <jtoomim> where it's fast when there is zero data in mempool that can be used for the block
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414 2016-01-03T15:26:11 <jtoomim> where you can get a 10 MB block to the whole network in about two seconds, with no significant slowdown when crossing the GFW
415 2016-01-03T15:26:17 <jtoomim> even in adversarial conditions
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417 2016-01-03T15:26:53 <jtoomim> with 100% unpublished transactions
418 2016-01-03T15:27:01 <sipa> how can that work?
419 2016-01-03T15:27:27 <jtoomim> let's say you are the originating peer
420 2016-01-03T15:27:39 <jtoomim> you send a different chunk of the block to each of your 50-100 peers
421 2016-01-03T15:27:47 <sipa> oh, ok
422 2016-01-03T15:28:05 <jtoomim> you include enough merkle info for people to be able to prove that their chunk is part of the whole block
423 2016-01-03T15:28:10 <jtoomim> they check PoW
424 2016-01-03T15:28:12 <jtoomim> then share
425 2016-01-03T15:28:22 <jtoomim> then you're basically done
426 2016-01-03T15:28:35 <jtoomim> there are a ton of optimizations that can be done, though
427 2016-01-03T15:28:40 <sipa> yeah, i tried that a few years ago, but the network stack in bitcoin core was too littered with waits back then, and it was many times slower than just sending the block
428 2016-01-03T15:28:48 <jtoomim> for example, guessing when you can refer to a tx using only 4 bytes instead of 32 bytes or the full tx
429 2016-01-03T15:28:49 <sipa> i'm sure it can work, and for larger blocks it may be necessary
430 2016-01-03T15:29:05 <sipa> however, a few misbehaving peers can slow down the reconstruction a lot
431 2016-01-03T15:29:06 <jtoomim> yeah, i'm planning on using the existing network stack mostly for peer discovery
432 2016-01-03T15:29:16 <jtoomim> which is why i want the service bit
433 2016-01-03T15:29:30 <jtoomim> i intend to do most of the implementation using UDP
434 2016-01-03T15:30:14 *** murch_ is now known as murch
435 2016-01-03T15:30:17 <jtoomim> with maybe a parallel TCP channel used for control information
436 2016-01-03T15:30:26 <jtoomim> and maybe an option for a TCP variant, i don't know
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438 2016-01-03T15:31:11 <jtoomim> do we have a list somewhere of what service bits are currently in use in production and testing code?
439 2016-01-03T15:31:44 <sipa> see protocol.h
440 2016-01-03T15:32:48 <jtoomim> i remember seeing a comment somewhere by someone who wanted to make use of another service bit about a month or two ago
441 2016-01-03T15:32:53 <jtoomim> can't remember who, though
442 2016-01-03T15:33:39 <jtoomim> so i guess i should just pick a number between 24-31, and hope it's not his (or verify)...
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444 2016-01-03T15:35:18 <sipa> how do you negotiate which peer will send what?
445 2016-01-03T15:35:58 <sipa> the receiver chooses which fragment to request from each peer?
446 2016-01-03T15:36:26 <sipa> how does the mempool fit in?
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451 2016-01-03T15:47:53 <jgarzik> jtoomim, FYI I did some UDP work years ago: https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/tree/udp
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453 2016-01-03T15:53:58 <jtoomim> sipa with a mixture of volunteered/unrequested data (not to exceed some per-peer DoS limits) and round-trip requests
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455 2016-01-03T15:54:15 <jtoomim> but yes, the main code path is with the receiver requesting chunks
456 2016-01-03T15:54:20 <jtoomim> or individual txs that are missing
457 2016-01-03T15:54:40 <jtoomim> using bitmaps, indices, and/or hashes
458 2016-01-03T15:54:54 <jtoomim> jgarzik thanks, i'll take a look
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481 2016-01-03T17:18:47 <jtoomim> sipa the mempool fits in because the receiver can choose not to request the full txs for hashes if the raw tx is already in mempool
482 2016-01-03T17:19:07 <jtoomim> and the sender can choose to relay the full tx without waiting for a request if it can guess that it is missing
483 2016-01-03T17:19:42 <jtoomim> http://toom.im/blocktorrent/
484 2016-01-03T17:20:18 <sipa> jtoomim: that means you first need to tell the receiver what transactions are in the block
485 2016-01-03T17:20:24 <jtoomim> that's about 3 months old, about 2 days after i first came up with the idea, so my ideas have evolved a bit since then
486 2016-01-03T17:20:34 <jtoomim> sipa correct, mostly
487 2016-01-03T17:20:47 <jtoomim> but that can be done using a chunkwise algorithm too
488 2016-01-03T17:20:50 <jtoomim> using the merkle tree
489 2016-01-03T17:21:14 <jtoomim> and you can request the transactions in the merkle tree one branch at a time, either up to the hash, or up to the full tx
490 2016-01-03T17:21:36 <sipa> if you introduce more roundtrips it's easy :)
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492 2016-01-03T17:21:51 <jtoomim> and you can also use weak blocks to encode those branches, by encoding each branch as a merkle root, a start index, an end, and some diff
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495 2016-01-03T17:22:28 <jtoomim> and for small blocks (e.g. 1 MB), you can skip a lot of those round trips by just broadcasting a lot of those first steps (since they'll be small, less than 1 packet)
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497 2016-01-03T17:23:02 <jtoomim> the thing is, since you're doing these round trips to a lot of peers simultaneously, you're not stuck with round trips to distant peers
498 2016-01-03T17:23:15 <jtoomim> so you get much lower round trip times than the typical 200 ms you get with a random peer
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501 2016-01-03T17:24:09 <jtoomim> for a 1 to 10 MB block in adversarial conditions, i'm expecting about 1/4 to 1/2 of our time budget to be taken up in round trip latencies, at least for the initial naive version
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503 2016-01-03T17:24:39 <jtoomim> and that's okay, i'm not trying to get the best possible latency; relay network does that pretty well already, and IBLTs will do that better as well
504 2016-01-03T17:24:52 <sipa> do you mind walking me through the steps/
505 2016-01-03T17:24:56 <jtoomim> the point of blocktorrent is that the performance should never be *bad*
506 2016-01-03T17:25:06 <jtoomim> have you read http://toom.im/blocktorrent/ yet or not?
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508 2016-01-03T17:25:12 <sipa> i have not; i'll do so later
509 2016-01-03T17:25:14 <jtoomim> (need to know where to start)
510 2016-01-03T17:25:16 <jtoomim> ok
511 2016-01-03T17:25:34 <jtoomim> 0. (Optional steps to build a Merkle cache; described later)
512 2016-01-03T17:25:34 <jtoomim> 1. A seed node mines a block.
513 2016-01-03T17:25:34 <jtoomim> 2. It notifies its peers that it has a new block with an extended version of inv.
514 2016-01-03T17:25:36 <jtoomim> 3. The leech peers request the block header.
515 2016-01-03T17:25:38 <jtoomim> 4. The seed sends the block header. The leech code path splits into two.
516 2016-01-03T17:25:40 <jtoomim> 5(a). The leeches verify the block header, including the PoW. If the header is valid,
517 2016-01-03T17:25:42 <jtoomim> 6(a). They notify their peers that they have a header for an unverified new block with an extended version of inv, looping back to 2. above. If it is invalid, they abort thread (b).
518 2016-01-03T17:25:44 <jtoomim> 5(b). The leeches request the Nth row (from the root) of the transaction Merkle tree, where N might typically be between 2 and 10. That corresponds to about 1/4th to 1/1024th of the transactions. The leeches also request a bitfield indicating which of the Merkle nodes the seed has leaves for. The seed supplies this (0xFFFF...).
519 2016-01-03T17:25:46 <jtoomim> 6(b). The leeches calculate all parent node hashes in the Merkle tree, and verify that the root hash is as described in the header.
520 2016-01-03T17:25:48 <jtoomim> 7. The leeches search their Merkle hash cache to see if they have the leaves (transaction hashes and/or transactions) for that node already.
521 2016-01-03T17:25:49 <sipa> no need to repeat everything here, i'll read it :)
522 2016-01-03T17:25:50 <jtoomim> 8. The leeches send a bitfield request to the node indicating which Merkle nodes they want the leaves for.
523 2016-01-03T17:25:52 <jtoomim> 9. The seed responds by sending leaves (either txn hashes or full transactions, depending on benchmark results) to the leeches in whatever order it decides is optimal for the network.
524 2016-01-03T17:25:54 <jtoomim> 10. The leeches verify that the leaves hash into the ancestor node hashes that they already have.
525 2016-01-03T17:25:56 <jtoomim> 11. The leeches begin sharing leaves with each other.
526 2016-01-03T17:25:58 <jtoomim> 12. If the leaves are txn hashes, they check their cache for the actual transactions. If they are missing it, they request the txns with a getdata, or all of the txns they're missing (as a list) with a few batch getdatas.
527 2016-01-03T17:26:00 <jtoomim> that's the steps as written in blocktorrent, trimmed to the essential parts
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529 2016-01-03T17:26:32 <sipa> steps 2-4 are already replaced by just announcing the header, so you can skip that :)
530 2016-01-03T17:26:33 <jtoomim> the short version: you download some intermediate level of the merkle tree nodes (e.g. the 3rd level), splitting the block into chunks of maybe 64 transactions each
531 2016-01-03T17:27:10 <jtoomim> then you download chunks from a different peer in parallel
532 2016-01-03T17:27:19 <sipa> yeah, that was my assumptions; but you'll still need to reveal all the leaves (at least to some shorted hash) if nodes need to be able to recognize mempool txn
533 2016-01-03T17:27:26 <jtoomim> and when there are only a few chunks left, you download each chunk from multiple peers simultaneously to avoid bad/slow peers
534 2016-01-03T17:27:38 <jtoomim> sipa, correct
535 2016-01-03T17:28:16 <sipa> have you heard about gmaxwell's recoverable hash idea?
536 2016-01-03T17:28:25 <sipa> it may apply
537 2016-01-03T17:28:31 <jtoomim> not by that name, and possibly not at all
538 2016-01-03T17:29:01 <sipa> so instead of using sha256^2 for txids, you define another 'hash'
539 2016-01-03T17:29:03 <jtoomim> we had an idea where you can find the hash using only 4 or 5 bytes of it pretty reliably in non-adversarial conditions
540 2016-01-03T17:29:39 <jtoomim> and we could fall back to full hashes if collision attempts were detected, usually without a round-trip
541 2016-01-03T17:29:55 <sipa> you take the transaction, serialized in full, and encrypt it with aes-cbc with a fixed static key, then reverse the bytes, and encrypt the result again
542 2016-01-03T17:29:58 <jtoomim> that's 2x to 2.5x the relay network's size, but without the memory requirements
543 2016-01-03T17:30:14 <sipa> the result is a series of bytes that can be turned back into the txid
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545 2016-01-03T17:30:34 <sipa> but every byte in the result also cryptographically depends on the whole transaction
546 2016-01-03T17:30:45 <jtoomim> ok
547 2016-01-03T17:31:00 <jtoomim> i was thinking of just using the last 4 or 5 bytes of the sha256^2
548 2016-01-03T17:31:02 <sipa> you can take the last 8 bytes from it (or 4 or whatever, as you suggest), and treat that as a hash
549 2016-01-03T17:31:15 <sipa> and now the actual data to relay is the rest, which is shorter
550 2016-01-03T17:31:17 <jtoomim> which is how the mempool is arranged anyway in the C++ map
551 2016-01-03T17:31:23 <jtoomim> red-black tree, i think
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553 2016-01-03T17:31:30 <jtoomim> so it would make searching for collisions very fast
554 2016-01-03T17:31:43 <sipa> it's a boost multiindex now, and new indexes can always be added
555 2016-01-03T17:32:12 <sipa> anyway, not sure it's obvious what the abvantage is: the hash you already know actually contains transaction data
556 2016-01-03T17:32:25 <sipa> and you can relay that many bytes fewer when the full tx is needed
557 2016-01-03T17:32:36 <sipa> it's a cute optimization
558 2016-01-03T17:32:39 <sipa> nothing major
559 2016-01-03T17:34:27 <sipa> especially if you're only using 4 byte hashes
560 2016-01-03T17:34:28 <jtoomim> i can agree with "cute"
561 2016-01-03T17:34:40 <jtoomim> 4 or 5 bytes most of the time, yes
562 2016-01-03T17:34:49 <jtoomim> 5 bytes would have a lower accidental collision rate
563 2016-01-03T17:34:54 <jtoomim> but even 4 bytes is pretty low
564 2016-01-03T17:36:16 <jtoomim> for a 65535 transaction block with a 65535 transaction mempool, i think there would be a 37% probability of at least one collision with 4 byte hashes
565 2016-01-03T17:36:28 <jtoomim> oops, no, that's not right
566 2016-01-03T17:36:42 <jtoomim> 63% probability of collision
567 2016-01-03T17:36:56 <jtoomim> with 5 byte hashes, 0.4% probability of collision
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569 2016-01-03T17:37:39 <jtoomim> 4 bytes is enough for 1-10 MB for about 1 collision per block or less, and 5 bytes is enough for nearly no collisions on up to around 100 MB, or something like that
570 2016-01-03T17:38:13 <jtoomim> (1- 65535./(2**40))**65535
571 2016-01-03T17:38:59 <jtoomim> anyway, the point behind blocktorrent is that we have a lot of bandwidth that we're not using, and if we make better use of that bandwidth, a lot of these compression techniques become unnecessary
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573 2016-01-03T17:39:30 <jtoomim> the secondary point is that if we use the merkle tree structure of blocks, we can get a few extra compression techniques to be useful and safe
574 2016-01-03T17:40:09 <sipa> if your aim is to reduce bandwidth, you're absolutely right
575 2016-01-03T17:40:09 <jtoomim> but i'm mostly going to be focusing on getting the actual bandwidth utilization to be better to serve as a solid and reliable base
576 2016-01-03T17:41:57 <jtoomim> i like the idea of building a system that has very different optimization strategies to the system that's being built by others, so that we can get a sum of the parts that is more robust than any one component
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578 2016-01-03T17:42:52 <jtoomim> but with weak blocks used to encode merkle nodes, I think this could compress down to a level that is almost as fast and small as IBLTs
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580 2016-01-03T17:43:25 <jtoomim> but with worst-case performance that's about 50x better
581 2016-01-03T17:44:14 <jtoomim> yada yada yada. less chat, more code.
582 2016-01-03T17:44:34 <jtoomim> jgarzik thanks again for that udp code, it will probably save me some work.
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601 2016-01-03T18:32:07 <murch> Hi, can someone refer me to what nick the github user MarcoFalke has here?
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605 2016-01-03T18:34:42 <paveljanik> murch, look around at #bitcoin-core-dev
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607 2016-01-03T18:35:04 <murch> paveljanik: thx
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665 2016-01-03T20:20:02 <m> hi
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667 2016-01-03T20:22:43 <m> I come to believe the overflow hypothesis. That is once blocks are full and fees high, commerce could start overflowing to the strongest altcoin
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670 2016-01-03T20:25:47 <m> so the fee/KB ratio between bitcoin and altcoin 1 could be measured and this could be a valid indicator for a block size increase
671 2016-01-03T20:26:15 <m> I mean potential increase, I'm not a big blocks guy myself
672 2016-01-03T20:27:30 <m> ok bye
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681 2016-01-03T20:47:25 <merlincorey> "errors": "This is a pre-release test build - use at your own risk - do not use for mining or merchant applications"
682 2016-01-03T20:47:34 <merlincorey> ^ I build on master very recently
683 2016-01-03T20:47:41 <merlincorey> which branch should I be building on?
684 2016-01-03T20:48:22 <merlincorey> or is this close enough to a release where the warning is not so dire?
685 2016-01-03T20:49:17 <pigeons> its not necessarily dire, but the release is tag v0.11.2 i think
686 2016-01-03T20:49:50 <merlincorey> okay thanks
687 2016-01-03T20:50:13 <merlincorey> if I'm only ever receiving transactions from the blockchain on this wallet, I'll probably be okay?
688 2016-01-03T20:50:20 <pigeons> yes
689 2016-01-03T20:50:30 <merlincorey> excellent thank you
690 2016-01-03T20:50:46 <merlincorey> where should I look to confirm the current release tag at a future date when I do update it?
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692 2016-01-03T20:52:27 <pigeons> maybe https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/releases
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765 2016-01-03T23:34:25 <rusty> Luke-Jr: is there a simple way to identify Eligius blocks in retrospect? Might be an interesting refinement to the "max stuck tx is 5 hours" from http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=573 )
766 2016-01-03T23:35:30 <wizkid057> rusty: Eligius blocks have "Eligius" in the coinbase
767 2016-01-03T23:35:42 <rusty> wizkid057: ah, subtle! :) Thanks...
768 2016-01-03T23:35:46 <wizkid057> np
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