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47 2016-01-07T00:53:05 <harding> Hey I have a BIP68 question. If I use an nSequence of 0xfeffffff with locktime like Bitcoin Core >0.11.0 does, will that trigger relative locktime?
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52 2016-01-07T00:59:07 <stevenroose> Luke-Jr: how? I use cgminer on testnet now and it says longpolling disabled
53 2016-01-07T01:04:32 <Luke-Jr> stevenroose: cgminer's GBT "support" is a hack and probably broken. try BFGMiner.
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75 2016-01-07T01:47:58 <maaku> harding: no
76 2016-01-07T01:48:21 <maaku> harding: bit 0x80000000 (1 << 31) disables relative locktime
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78 2016-01-07T01:50:16 <harding> maaku: thanks! I wanted to make sure I was understanding it correctly.
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80 2016-01-07T01:50:53 <maaku> harding: note that Bitcoin Core >0.11.0 defaults to opt-in RBF ... I'm surprised no one has mae a fuss about this
81 2016-01-07T01:51:48 <harding> maaku: no, opt-in RBF is less than MAX-1 and Bitcoin Core is at MAX-1
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182 2016-01-07T05:48:50 <wiretap> u know a channel to get started with bitcoin?
183 2016-01-07T05:48:58 <wiretap> sorry hello lol
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187 2016-01-07T05:51:38 <sipa> #bitcoin
188 2016-01-07T05:52:11 <wiretap> ty!
189 2016-01-07T05:52:26 <wiretap> nomaste
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331 2016-01-07T10:12:14 <rusty> So, if I want to generate a tx using bitcoind's wallet facility, but not broadcast it yet, I need to do: estimatefee (to decide what fee to use), getaddress (for change), getunspent, figure out what inputs from that give me sufficient funds, figure out how much to go to change, createrawtransaction then signrawtransaction?
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337 2016-01-07T10:31:00 <gijensen> rusty: that or set walletbroadcast=0 and use sendtoaddress to generate a tx
338 2016-01-07T10:31:28 <gijensen> But I don't know how to get rid of that TX without zapwallettxes atm
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340 2016-01-07T10:33:04 <rusty> gijensen: hmm, maybe that's OK for the first cut. It's certainly simpler!
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344 2016-01-07T10:35:24 <rusty> gijensen: hmm, there's no api to figure out if they've set walletbroadcast=0, either.
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347 2016-01-07T10:37:06 <gijensen> Oh I never thought about that. Yeah :/
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350 2016-01-07T10:38:00 <rusty> gijensen: yeah, I think I'll grep the default config location and warn if it's not set for now.
351 2016-01-07T10:38:06 <rusty> gijensen: thanks!
352 2016-01-07T10:38:12 <gijensen> No problem!
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401 2016-01-07T12:23:34 <JackH> would it be possible to get soft-fork introduction that does not apply to all miners and nodes? for example, if I want a soft-fork introduced between myself and my 10 buddies, and I can find 1 miner to mine it, but the rest of the network will refuse this "soft fork" feature
402 2016-01-07T12:23:50 <JackH> is that a feature that could be added, or wont this type of sharding of features work?
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406 2016-01-07T12:28:54 <wumpus> JackH: if it's a softfork then it is allowed by current consensus by definition; softforks only narrow down allowed blocks/transactions by adding additional constraints. So sure, you and your 10 buddies can decide on some 'secret rules' that no one else will enforce, and miners will still mine blocks that don't adhere to them, so if you regirously enforce the new rules thus refuse those blocks you will get forked off the chain
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409 2016-01-07T12:29:53 <wumpus> this is why the thresholds exist, e.g. 75% to start enforcing the rules for new version blocks, 95% to only accept new version blocks
410 2016-01-07T12:30:20 <wallet42> a soft-fork usually puts bitcoin into a "anyone-can-spend" output script. in the soft-fork the rules are stricter (eg. P2SH not only verified to hash to the output but is also executed) and after the miners voted to enable it, a block not using the strict rules becomes invalid. so anyone can steal those bitcoin you are sending between you and your 10 buddies.
411 2016-01-07T12:30:30 <wumpus> if only one miner would go along without caring about thresholds, he'd be forked off from the rest
412 2016-01-07T12:30:43 <JackH> yep, I follow you on this wumpus
413 2016-01-07T12:30:46 <JackH> but, what I mean is
414 2016-01-07T12:31:15 <JackH> say I propose a softfork, and this never gets accepted by the miners, thus it never reaches consensus
415 2016-01-07T12:32:00 <wumpus> then it failed and you should probably abandon it, as wallet42 says, others are free to ignore your new rules
416 2016-01-07T12:32:13 <wallet42> in that case your bitcoins aren't safe because the majority of the network does not agree to the new rules
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418 2016-01-07T12:32:46 <JackH> hmm I have to think a bit more about how I wanted to explain this
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459 2016-01-07T13:34:36 <btcdrak> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012195.html
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462 2016-01-07T13:37:06 <jonasschnelli> Nice work sipa, CodeShark, morcos, jl2012!
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475 2016-01-07T14:07:44 <wumpus> woohoo!
476 2016-01-07T14:08:30 <wumpus> doesn't it need steps on how to connect to the segwit testnet?
477 2016-01-07T14:09:21 <wumpus> (e.g. at least until it has a DNS seed it needs manual connect=, right?)
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484 2016-01-07T14:15:55 <wumpus> my node still only has 3 connections
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488 2016-01-07T14:27:09 <btcdrak> bitcoind -segnet -daemon -addnode=46.101.235.82:28333;
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519 2016-01-07T15:01:35 <wumpus> yea I know :) but I mean for people on the mailing list
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595 2016-01-07T16:38:38 <jonasschnelli> ^^ connected to 4 segnet nodes.
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625 2016-01-07T17:17:47 <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: BIP100 was never submitted as a PR to bips afaik,
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628 2016-01-07T17:20:51 <Luke-Jr> is Chris Priest here? his Uni's mail server is broken/bouncing..
629 2016-01-07T17:20:51 <BlindSeer> do you guys do tech support here or no
630 2016-01-07T17:20:57 <Luke-Jr> BlindSeer: no, that's in #Bitcoin
631 2016-01-07T17:21:00 <BlindSeer> ok
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683 2016-01-07T18:27:20 <Chris_Stewart_5> Inside of script.cpp why are we using negative integers to find elements in the stack
684 2016-01-07T18:27:22 <Chris_Stewart_5> i.e.
685 2016-01-07T18:27:22 *** afk11 has quit IRC
686 2016-01-07T18:27:30 <Chris_Stewart_5> stacktop(-1)
687 2016-01-07T18:27:48 <sipa> Chris_Stewart_5: ask satoshi :)
688 2016-01-07T18:28:05 <Chris_Stewart_5> sipa: brb
689 2016-01-07T18:28:15 <Chris_Stewart_5> ok he said it was to confuse noobs like me :-)
690 2016-01-07T18:28:54 <Chris_Stewart_5> is stacktop(-1) the same thing as stacktop.pop()?
691 2016-01-07T18:29:05 <sipa> (that's an annoying answer, i'm aware, but it's correct: there is no reason to change perfectly functional consensus-critical code, so the reason why things are as they are is the same as the reason why they were done in the first place, which we don't know)
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694 2016-01-07T18:31:11 <Chris_Stewart_5> sipa: the bullet is going to have to be bit as some point though, won't it? Obviously not today or within the next year but something like this needs to be done at some point. Test beds like sidechains seem to make this more likely as well
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697 2016-01-07T18:33:25 <sipa> what bullet?
698 2016-01-07T18:33:34 *** Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-dev
699 2016-01-07T18:33:40 <sipa> it's perfectly functional code
700 2016-01-07T18:35:08 <Chris_Stewart_5> Isn't that a dangerous thing to say though? Essentially, "the code works, why should it be improved?"
701 2016-01-07T18:35:36 <wallet42> welcome to consensus critical code :-)
702 2016-01-07T18:35:50 <MarcoFalke> Would adding a comment help?
703 2016-01-07T18:36:01 <BlueMatt> -> #bitcoin-core-dev
704 2016-01-07T18:36:16 <Chris_Stewart_5> wallet42: haha yes, I guess that is the arguement at hand.
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726 2016-01-07T18:56:39 * jonasschnelli mined a segnet block... :P
727 2016-01-07T18:57:34 <sipa> jonasschnelli: we are likely going to reset the chain soonish, though
728 2016-01-07T18:58:16 *** Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-dev
729 2016-01-07T18:58:23 <jonasschnelli> sipa: okay,.. reset = new genesis?
730 2016-01-07T18:58:43 <sipa> yeah
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732 2016-01-07T18:59:52 <wumpus> meeting start time?
733 2016-01-07T19:00:10 <jonasschnelli> yes
734 2016-01-07T19:00:19 <wumpus> #startmeeting
735 2016-01-07T19:00:19 <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Jan 7 19:00:19 2016 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
736 2016-01-07T19:00:19 <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
737 2016-01-07T19:00:21 <sipa> oh!
738 2016-01-07T19:00:45 *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-dev
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740 2016-01-07T19:00:57 <jonasschnelli> any topics?
741 2016-01-07T19:01:01 <wumpus> topic: anything still needs to be merged before 0.12.0rc1?
742 2016-01-07T19:01:07 <MarcoFalke> the wallet stuff
743 2016-01-07T19:01:18 <wumpus> yeah besides what already has 0.12 milestone
744 2016-01-07T19:01:26 * sipa at the real world crypto conference; right in thr middle of the bitcoin session
745 2016-01-07T19:01:56 <wumpus> oh, probably not be a busy meeting then
746 2016-01-07T19:01:56 <Luke-Jr> >_<
747 2016-01-07T19:02:10 *** brg444 has joined #bitcoin-dev
748 2016-01-07T19:02:27 <jonasschnelli> 0.12.0rc needs some more infos in the release notes
749 2016-01-07T19:02:28 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7151 for 0.12.0 <.<
750 2016-01-07T19:02:29 <morcos> wumpus: you didn't add #7312 to 0.12 milestone. i guess there is disagreement
751 2016-01-07T19:02:43 <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7149 is a bugfix for 0.12.0 also
752 2016-01-07T19:02:44 *** ninsei has quit IRC
753 2016-01-07T19:02:47 <morcos> but i feel pretty strongly that releasing 0.12 as is, is pretty bad
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756 2016-01-07T19:03:01 <cfields> wumpus: if i work out a quick fix for #7098, ok for 0.12 ?
757 2016-01-07T19:03:16 <MarcoFalke> jonas, I have a pull open for the release notes.
758 2016-01-07T19:03:28 <MarcoFalke> Maybe someone can do the rbf part
759 2016-01-07T19:03:31 <jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: yes. But some things are missing.
760 2016-01-07T19:03:49 <MarcoFalke> and morcos the txconfirmtarget part?
761 2016-01-07T19:03:52 <wumpus> cfields: well I do intend to release rc1 tomorrow, so this was kind of a last minute call
762 2016-01-07T19:03:58 <jonasschnelli> missed: wallet+prune, setban/banlist
763 2016-01-07T19:04:02 <jonasschnelli> *misses
764 2016-01-07T19:04:03 <cfields> ok
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766 2016-01-07T19:04:32 <jonasschnelli> 7312 is nice,.. but not urgent for 0.12 IMO.
767 2016-01-07T19:04:32 <wumpus> #action look at #7151 #7149 #7312 for 0.12
768 2016-01-07T19:05:08 <sdaftuar> i think 7312 is a bugfix? not being able to spend coins after mempool eviction seems like a bad regression
769 2016-01-07T19:05:10 <wumpus> 7312 is a feature, too late for 0.12.0 I'd think
770 2016-01-07T19:05:28 <sdaftuar> (i still need to review it)
771 2016-01-07T19:05:36 <Luke-Jr> sdaftuar: it has always been true that transactions with too little fee get stuck
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773 2016-01-07T19:05:55 <wumpus> if it adds new strings or new RPC functionality that's really hard to put under the bugfix umbrella
774 2016-01-07T19:05:56 <Luke-Jr> ⦠until they gain sufficient priority, at least
775 2016-01-07T19:05:57 <sdaftuar> previously those tx's could eventually get mined though
776 2016-01-07T19:06:02 <Luke-Jr> which may not work anymore in 0.12
777 2016-01-07T19:06:20 <Luke-Jr> sdaftuar: they can still eventually get mined
778 2016-01-07T19:06:26 <wumpus> cfields: but this is only rc1, it's quite certain we'll have a rc2, so still worth working on
779 2016-01-07T19:06:32 <Luke-Jr> sdaftuar: just your local node will fail to broadcast them, which I agree is a bug..
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781 2016-01-07T19:06:52 <morcos> wumpus: the situation for 0.12 will be significantly worse with respect to stuck txs than prior releases
782 2016-01-07T19:06:53 <cfields> wumpus: ok, will do
783 2016-01-07T19:07:15 <morcos> in prior releases, txs were eventually mined because the network didn't forget them
784 2016-01-07T19:07:17 <Luke-Jr> morcos: abandontransaction is IMO not a solution to that though
785 2016-01-07T19:07:28 <Luke-Jr> it does not guarantee the transaction won't get mined
786 2016-01-07T19:07:36 <morcos> or if they were not in your mempool for some other reason, like you never broadcast them, then they didn't tie up inputs (this is a NEW change)
787 2016-01-07T19:07:39 <sipa> do we currently rebroadcast a txn that is not accepted to our mempool?
788 2016-01-07T19:07:42 <jonasschnelli> morcos: but due to the smartfee (+GUI) changes stuck tx should happen really rare? not?
789 2016-01-07T19:07:44 <Luke-Jr> which means people will easily be tricked into double-sends
790 2016-01-07T19:07:46 <wumpus> morcos: I agree it's worse, but I' not sure what to do about that on such short notice
791 2016-01-07T19:07:47 <Luke-Jr> far worse than stuck
792 2016-01-07T19:08:09 <Luke-Jr> sipa: I don't think so, but that would be a quick hack that would work I think
793 2016-01-07T19:08:25 <morcos> also in 0.11, you could probably trick your node to start up with a high relay fee so the tx wouldn't be in yhour mempool any more if it was just taking a long time to mine, and then respend it
794 2016-01-07T19:08:28 <sipa> i think that's a bad position to be in
795 2016-01-07T19:08:45 <morcos> the only solution discussed for 0.12, is -zapwallettxes which sounds crazy to me
796 2016-01-07T19:08:47 <sipa> as it relies on the rest of the world using a policy you're not following yourself
797 2016-01-07T19:08:52 *** elichai2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
798 2016-01-07T19:08:52 <sipa> agree with morcos
799 2016-01-07T19:08:55 <Luke-Jr> how about adding local priority to wallet transactions so they never get pruned?
800 2016-01-07T19:09:08 <wumpus> yes, -zapwallettxes is crazy
801 2016-01-07T19:09:10 <sipa> Luke-Jr: privacy leak
802 2016-01-07T19:09:19 <jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: yes, open fingerprintig attacks
803 2016-01-07T19:09:20 *** ninsei has joined #bitcoin-dev
804 2016-01-07T19:09:21 <wumpus> so, you want to postpone rc1 then?
805 2016-01-07T19:09:22 <Luke-Jr> sipa: any solution is a privacy leak?
806 2016-01-07T19:09:36 <sipa> Luke-Jr: abandontransaction is not a privacy leak
807 2016-01-07T19:09:39 <jonasschnelli> call mempool p2p message and compare
808 2016-01-07T19:09:49 *** elichai2 has quit IRC
809 2016-01-07T19:09:50 <Luke-Jr> abandontransaction is *worse* than a privacy leak..
810 2016-01-07T19:09:50 <wumpus> mempool p2p message is a privacy leak :(
811 2016-01-07T19:09:51 <sipa> a GUI way to do "respend with higher fee" is even better
812 2016-01-07T19:09:56 <morcos> sipa: i think jonasschnelli is right that there will not be too many txs that are not accepted to the mempool in the first place, but more txs that are evicted.
813 2016-01-07T19:10:01 <Luke-Jr> sipa: +1
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816 2016-01-07T19:10:55 <Luke-Jr> IMO the rare stuck transactions are still rare enough to not be a blocker for 0.12.0
817 2016-01-07T19:11:07 <jonasschnelli> I think a GUI fix that would re-broadcast the tx would be trivial... but respend with height fees might included some UX changes.
818 2016-01-07T19:11:16 <morcos> yes there are a lot of options to improve this that will have to wait for 0.13
819 2016-01-07T19:11:16 <wumpus> that's much nicer, but not realistic for 0.12, we need something that can be written ,tested and reviwed on short notice. abandontransaction could be such if everyone focuses on it I guess.
820 2016-01-07T19:11:28 <Luke-Jr> we can add a respend option in 0.12.1 or something
821 2016-01-07T19:11:35 <sipa> agree
822 2016-01-07T19:11:37 <morcos> but #7312 as is should be reviewable and mergeable quickly
823 2016-01-07T19:11:46 <Luke-Jr> morcos: but it creates worse problems
824 2016-01-07T19:11:53 <morcos> its a manual operation
825 2016-01-07T19:11:59 <morcos> if you don't use it, it doesn't create any problems
826 2016-01-07T19:12:06 <Luke-Jr> â¦
827 2016-01-07T19:12:14 <jonasschnelli> morcos: but won't help the people that have stuck tx... they are mostly GUI users i guess.
828 2016-01-07T19:12:20 <wumpus> morcos: right
829 2016-01-07T19:12:22 <morcos> if you want to put a big fat "WARNING: this may cause non opt-in double spends!" thats fine by me
830 2016-01-07T19:12:32 <Luke-Jr> morcos: we intentionally make dumping private keys hard, and people STILL do it.
831 2016-01-07T19:12:37 <Luke-Jr> morcos: that's not the problem
832 2016-01-07T19:12:48 *** _biO_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
833 2016-01-07T19:12:50 <morcos> jonasschnelli: but when they are asking on #bitcoin, we can tell them to type something into their debug console to clear their tx
834 2016-01-07T19:12:50 *** _yoy_ has quit IRC
835 2016-01-07T19:12:52 <wumpus> well the GUI could also add a "abandon transaction" in the tx dropdown
836 2016-01-07T19:13:05 <Luke-Jr> they will abandon a payment to Fred, then resend it to Fred with a higher fee and the wallet will use different inputs
837 2016-01-07T19:13:07 <morcos> i just tried to rush out the bare bones functionality
838 2016-01-07T19:13:09 <Luke-Jr> Fred will bribe a miner to mine both
839 2016-01-07T19:13:11 <wumpus> not sure that's a good idea but heh...
840 2016-01-07T19:13:14 <jonasschnelli> morcos: yes. almost as quick as tell them to use -zapwallettxes... but i agree, thats worse.
841 2016-01-07T19:13:18 <wumpus> and that will add strings so definitely not for 0.12.0
842 2016-01-07T19:13:19 <morcos> it is really annoyingly difficult to deal with stuck txs without this
843 2016-01-07T19:13:21 <Luke-Jr> and Fred now has 2x the intended payment
844 2016-01-07T19:13:25 <sdaftuar> Luke-Jr: it can only be used on not-in-mempool transactions i think
845 2016-01-07T19:13:41 <Luke-Jr> sdaftuar: not-in-YOUR-mempool does not mean someone else does not have it
846 2016-01-07T19:13:54 <Luke-Jr> sdaftuar: if it was NEVER broadcast, it wouldn't have been completed in the first place
847 2016-01-07T19:14:38 <morcos> Luke-Jr: if could be never broadcast due to fee estimation error, or due to have broadcast off
848 2016-01-07T19:14:40 <Luke-Jr> making it possible for Fred to receive 2x payment is far worse than stuck transactions; and I suspect will become far more common than the rare stuck txs would have been
849 2016-01-07T19:14:46 *** Xaero91 has joined #bitcoin-dev
850 2016-01-07T19:15:05 <Luke-Jr> morcos: the former case, will prevent the tx from ever being completed in the wallet
851 2016-01-07T19:15:15 <morcos> Fred can just as easily tell people to send the tx twice and say that the old one is stuck now, what difference is there
852 2016-01-07T19:15:24 <morcos> Luke-Jr: no it wont
853 2016-01-07T19:15:39 <Luke-Jr> morcos: the difference is Fred has a much more convincing case if the user is told to abandon the old one
854 2016-01-07T19:15:51 <Luke-Jr> morcos: it should!
855 2016-01-07T19:15:54 <wumpus> ok... let's discuss this outside the meeting, I think it's clear what pulls still need to be looked at... any other topics?
856 2016-01-07T19:15:56 <Luke-Jr> pretty sure it has in the past
857 2016-01-07T19:15:59 <Luke-Jr> k
858 2016-01-07T19:16:01 <jonasschnelli> Should't time be involved in abandoning txes? A min delay?
859 2016-01-07T19:16:13 <wumpus> sounds like overdesign to me
860 2016-01-07T19:16:22 <jonasschnelli> hmm..
861 2016-01-07T19:16:23 *** afk11 has quit IRC
862 2016-01-07T19:16:27 <Luke-Jr> next topic: BIPs not in bitcoin/bips need to be told to me
863 2016-01-07T19:16:36 <morcos> We can hide the rpc and/or make a more stern warning
864 2016-01-07T19:16:37 <wumpus> this is meant to be a quick, advanced fix for people messing up transactions
865 2016-01-07T19:16:47 <morcos> but not having the functionality is just risking a problem imo
866 2016-01-07T19:16:53 <morcos> we agreed to put this in back in november
867 2016-01-07T19:16:59 <wumpus> #topic Luke-jr new BIP editor
868 2016-01-07T19:17:07 <wumpus> morcos: agree
869 2016-01-07T19:17:21 <Luke-Jr> morcos: hidden RPC is maybe okay
870 2016-01-07T19:17:31 <Luke-Jr> morcos: I thought we were talking about GUI exposed somehow
871 2016-01-07T19:17:44 <wumpus> no, no, this is not GUI, just a RPC pull
872 2016-01-07T19:18:06 <jonasschnelli> GUI's def. to late.. ok: #topic Luke-jr new BIP editor
873 2016-01-07T19:18:15 <petertodd> ACK!
874 2016-01-07T19:18:18 <jonasschnelli> what's the reason for gmaxwells step back?
875 2016-01-07T19:18:34 <jonasschnelli> (but maybe this is not the topic)
876 2016-01-07T19:18:39 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: I don't think we need to discuss that publically, you can ask him
877 2016-01-07T19:18:51 <jonasschnelli> Right.
878 2016-01-07T19:18:52 <morcos> i think there are no objections to Luke-Jr being bip editor, especially given gmaxwell asked him
879 2016-01-07T19:19:02 <Luke-Jr> I don't know, and don't think we should pry into gmaxwell's private reasons in a meeting.
880 2016-01-07T19:19:06 <wumpus> right
881 2016-01-07T19:19:13 <petertodd> yeah, why gmaxwell doesn't want to do it isn't relevant to how good Luke-Jr will be
882 2016-01-07T19:19:32 <petertodd> and Luke's email to the list earlier is good evidence he'll do a good job
883 2016-01-07T19:19:48 <wumpus> he's been active with the repository at least
884 2016-01-07T19:20:09 <Luke-Jr> so far I haven't had any emails on missing BIP assignments, although it's only been an hour or two
885 2016-01-07T19:20:25 *** AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-dev
886 2016-01-07T19:20:37 <wumpus> what do you mean with "BIPs not in bitcoin/bips"? are there BIPs somewhere else?
887 2016-01-07T19:20:51 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: there are assignments with no draft in the repo, I suspect
888 2016-01-07T19:20:54 <wumpus> yes, now the difficult task of allocating numbers falls to you
889 2016-01-07T19:21:30 <MarcoFalke> BIP100 is not in bitcoin/bips
890 2016-01-07T19:22:01 <wumpus> first priority regarding number assignment is probably the segwit BIP
891 2016-01-07T19:22:05 <petertodd> MarcoFalke: do we know if BIP100 was ever officially assigned?
892 2016-01-07T19:22:20 <sipa> it was not
893 2016-01-07T19:22:32 <MarcoFalke> You can't "unassign" it now
894 2016-01-07T19:22:47 <wumpus> well at least you can't allocate anything else to it anymore
895 2016-01-07T19:22:47 <sipa> agree
896 2016-01-07T19:23:22 <petertodd> pity leaving it off the index will be taken politically
897 2016-01-07T19:23:32 <Luke-Jr> I'll give people 24 hours to notify me of missing assignments, then I'll get to some priority ones (like BIP 100 and segwit) and wait a little more to go through the rest of the pending ones
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899 2016-01-07T19:23:42 <wumpus> there's no strong need to leave it off the index
900 2016-01-07T19:23:52 <morcos> suggested topic: more detailed roadmap for next few major projects
901 2016-01-07T19:24:11 <wumpus> though it should be clear that people should not self-assign numbers, gmaxwell by definition assigned a different number if people claimed their own
902 2016-01-07T19:24:23 <Luke-Jr> does jgarzik's bips repo have a current BIP 100 draft I can PR?
903 2016-01-07T19:24:31 <MarcoFalke> yes
904 2016-01-07T19:24:37 <jgarzik> on a branch
905 2016-01-07T19:24:39 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: I'll give "202" a different number for that..
906 2016-01-07T19:24:43 <wumpus> but it's too late to do that for bip100
907 2016-01-07T19:24:44 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: can you PR it? ;)
908 2016-01-07T19:24:48 <wumpus> right
909 2016-01-07T19:24:50 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, sure
910 2016-01-07T19:24:51 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: ack on 202
911 2016-01-07T19:25:35 <jgarzik> Luke-Jr, with "202", I tried to do a new method of (1) put in drafts/ dir with no number assigned, (2) have BIP editor move-and-assign-num-and-update-index
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913 2016-01-07T19:25:47 <jgarzik> to respond to self-assignment complaints
914 2016-01-07T19:25:49 <Luke-Jr> jgarzik: thanks; that sounds reasonable
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916 2016-01-07T19:26:39 <petertodd> re: detailed plans, is everyone aware of my segwit previous block proof? I don't think there are any outstanding objections to it if it's structured as a tree for the sake of fraud proofs
917 2016-01-07T19:26:51 <wumpus> #topic more detailed roadmap for next few major projects
918 2016-01-07T19:27:49 <morcos> thanks, i just wanted to make a request for a bit of direction (like your response to gmaxwell's email) on what sort of timelines are and order of implemntation of various work: segwit, versionbits (if its still happening), BIP 68,112,113
919 2016-01-07T19:28:11 <morcos> And other major features we might want for 0.13, such as RBF functionality in the wallet?
920 2016-01-07T19:28:35 <petertodd> morcos: anyone willing to work on RBF wallet functionality?
921 2016-01-07T19:28:35 <wumpus> would be best to ask the people working on those
922 2016-01-07T19:28:37 <morcos> Seems like we have a lot of things on our plate and having some concentration of effort on various things might be helpful
923 2016-01-07T19:28:50 <Luke-Jr> morcos: for fee bumping at least
924 2016-01-07T19:28:56 <jonasschnelli> petertodd: I will work on the RBF features for the wallet.
925 2016-01-07T19:29:09 <wumpus> nice jonasschnelli!
926 2016-01-07T19:29:11 <petertodd> jonasschnelli: great, thanks! feel free to ask me any questions
927 2016-01-07T19:29:13 <sipa> good
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930 2016-01-07T19:29:33 <sipa> i apologize for pretty absent lately
931 2016-01-07T19:29:38 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: keep in mind some merchants explicitly plan to *reject* RBF-optin transactions
932 2016-01-07T19:29:50 <morcos> wumpus: i was thinking that perhaps you, sipa, and gmaxwell might have a list of goals for 0.13 , we could obviously give feedback. but i'm willing to work on many of those things but would appreciate knowing where the effort is requested.
933 2016-01-07T19:29:57 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: so you may need to implement a "disable RBF for this tx and retry" logic
934 2016-01-07T19:30:08 <morcos> or not just for 0.13 as there will be SF's before then?
935 2016-01-07T19:30:11 <wumpus> well you made great progress on segwit sipa
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938 2016-01-07T19:30:28 <sipa> wumpus: thanks, but other things can't be put on hold either
939 2016-01-07T19:30:31 * Luke-Jr notes segwit is necessarily decoupled from release versions
940 2016-01-07T19:30:33 <jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: Yes. We need to focus that. And wisely choose the default.
941 2016-01-07T19:30:35 <petertodd> Luke-Jr: I'd be inclined to wait and see on that; solution may be to just turn the bit off, with logic otherwise unchanged
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943 2016-01-07T19:30:49 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: default IMO should be to attempt RBF, and if rejected, retry without it ;)
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945 2016-01-07T19:31:01 <cfields> i'm planning to post an rfc for a network stack overhaul in the next week or so as well, i realize it's getting a bit late for that
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948 2016-01-07T19:31:14 <petertodd> sipa: you you planning on working on segwit relative to the v0.12 branch, or v0.13?
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950 2016-01-07T19:31:23 <sipa> petertodd: 0.12
951 2016-01-07T19:31:31 <Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: otoh, BIP70 txs already imply the merchant is responsible for getting it mined, so maybe RBF is less important there
952 2016-01-07T19:31:31 <petertodd> sipa: ok good, that's probably faster
953 2016-01-07T19:31:34 <sipa> i should stop rebasing on master
954 2016-01-07T19:31:35 <morcos> cfields: perfect example. it would be nice to know when we should all spend time looking at that, so we can get it in and merged
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959 2016-01-07T19:31:50 * Luke-Jr suggests the last common commit in 0.12 and master
960 2016-01-07T19:31:56 <wumpus> sipa: may be better to rebase on 0.12 branch then :)
961 2016-01-07T19:32:09 <sipa> wumpus: yes, will do soon
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964 2016-01-07T19:32:15 <cfields> morcos: yup. i've held off on requesting review so far. i'll begin that very soon.
965 2016-01-07T19:32:27 <jonasschnelli> cfields: nice. And sorry,... I still own you some reviews of the current code.
966 2016-01-07T19:32:37 <Luke-Jr> anything based on 3cd836c1d855b92e7c73ab31979f471c4f8dad68 should merge into 0.12 and master
967 2016-01-07T19:32:40 <sipa> i think our choice of efforts for working towards consensus changes is independent from releases
968 2016-01-07T19:32:55 <cfields> jonasschnelli: nah, i just poked you for an idea, wasn't looking for review yet
969 2016-01-07T19:33:08 *** akrmn has quit IRC
970 2016-01-07T19:33:19 <jonasschnelli> Okay. Poke me again if it's time...
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972 2016-01-07T19:33:32 <cfields> will do, thanks
973 2016-01-07T19:33:47 <morcos> sipa: sure. i just mean an overall game plan. for instance i reviewed versionbits, found a bug, got no feedback, and now am not sure we're even doing versionbits. thats fine, things change. but it would be nice if other people knew that maybe they shouldn't go review versionbits right now
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976 2016-01-07T19:33:51 <Luke-Jr> gotta run, bbiab
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979 2016-01-07T19:34:13 <wumpus> but yes it makes sense to make a list of goals for 0.13, although as the releases are time-based it's conditional on things being ready on time
980 2016-01-07T19:34:19 <sipa> ok, i think bip9 is moved a bit back in priority
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983 2016-01-07T19:34:38 <morcos> sipa: yes thats all i'm saying a bit more communication on priorities
984 2016-01-07T19:34:56 <sipa> agree with that choice?
985 2016-01-07T19:34:57 <jonasschnelli> agree with morcos. A clear plan could result in investing resources into the right parts.
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989 2016-01-07T19:35:49 <petertodd> morcos: whether or not we definitely need versionbits will depend on whether or not there is a competing fork on the network
990 2016-01-07T19:36:00 <morcos> sipa: sure. more like no objection. there are many plans that are all good plans. having one of them though is better than not.
991 2016-01-07T19:36:10 <wumpus> well I suggest that everyone that is working on something that they plan to have finished for 0.13 sends me proposals, I can merge it into a plan
992 2016-01-07T19:36:28 <morcos> +1
993 2016-01-07T19:36:28 <petertodd> morcos: also, in that case, we can do my pseudo-versionbits with very little code
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1000 2016-01-07T19:37:50 <btcdrak> petertodd: there are currently two implementations of version bits. one by codeshark and one by rusty
1001 2016-01-07T19:38:01 <sipa> and neither is maintaines at this point
1002 2016-01-07T19:38:11 <sipa> afaik
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1004 2016-01-07T19:38:17 <petertodd> btcdrak: I know, I just mean, if we're in a position where we need it ASAP and the actual versionbits isn't production quality
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1039 2016-01-07T19:38:48 <petertodd> btcdrak: my version is about two lines of code, at the cost of theoretically being a hardfork in cases where the fork fails
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1045 2016-01-07T19:40:15 <Luke-Jr> pfft freenode
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1047 2016-01-07T19:40:24 <wumpus> I think we've drifted off topic a bit. versionbits as new topic? or something else?
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1049 2016-01-07T19:40:27 <sipa> there is a moral obligation to have VB or something with similar functionality available
1050 2016-01-07T19:40:42 *** PsychoticBoy_ is now known as PsychoticBoy
1051 2016-01-07T19:40:43 <wumpus> #topic versionbits (BIP9)
1052 2016-01-07T19:40:51 <morcos> sipa: there is? or is that a question?
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1056 2016-01-07T19:41:13 <morcos> sorry, i read "objection"
1057 2016-01-07T19:41:19 <sdaftuar> sipa: agreed
1058 2016-01-07T19:41:24 <Luke-Jr> "Pieter Wuille proposes a moral requirement to rewrite Bitcoin in Visual Basic."
1059 2016-01-07T19:41:30 *** mrkent has joined #bitcoin-dev
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1061 2016-01-07T19:41:41 <wumpus> heh
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1063 2016-01-07T19:41:43 <cfields> haha
1064 2016-01-07T19:41:45 *** AusteritySucks has joined #bitcoin-dev
1065 2016-01-07T19:41:46 <sipa> hahaha
1066 2016-01-07T19:41:54 *** artifexd_ is now known as artifexd
1067 2016-01-07T19:42:02 * petertodd is thinking of his Compaq 386 running Windows 3.1
1068 2016-01-07T19:42:14 <Luke-Jr> gotta go back to VB 4.0 for that I think
1069 2016-01-07T19:42:21 <sipa> back to topic?
1070 2016-01-07T19:42:23 <btcdrak> urgh, is there a freenode netsplit going on atm?
1071 2016-01-07T19:42:24 <Luke-Jr> sorry
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1074 2016-01-07T19:43:05 <sipa> i think there are a few long-lasting things that need a scheduled time to do: consensus refactoring (just moving things to one directory is already a great step)
1075 2016-01-07T19:43:10 <sipa> another is c++11
1076 2016-01-07T19:43:11 <wumpus> agree as well that something like versionbits is "a moral obligation", but indeed not the first priority
1077 2016-01-07T19:43:15 <sipa> another is clang-format
1078 2016-01-07T19:43:23 <wumpus> bleh clang-format
1079 2016-01-07T19:43:23 <petertodd> anyway, I agree that versionbits is a moral requirement, but we also have a moral requirement to release code that works and is well-tested
1080 2016-01-07T19:43:34 <jonasschnelli> +1 for c+11, -1 for clang format
1081 2016-01-07T19:43:39 *** jaclupi_ has quit IRC
1082 2016-01-07T19:43:41 <sipa> ok, good to hear
1083 2016-01-07T19:43:51 <jonasschnelli> it's just not worth it.
1084 2016-01-07T19:43:55 <wumpus> but yes, jtimon's libconsensus refactoring and c++11 would be nice to do for 0.13
1085 2016-01-07T19:44:01 <sipa> but people still have an epectation that clang-format wilk happen at some point
1086 2016-01-07T19:44:05 <jonasschnelli> MarcoFalkes git diff format script should be recommended.
1087 2016-01-07T19:44:11 <morcos> if there is a spell checker, i could use that so i stop getting so many comment fixups to my pulls.
1088 2016-01-07T19:44:19 <sipa> we need to communicate that it will not happen then
1089 2016-01-07T19:44:27 *** CodeShark has joined #bitcoin-dev
1090 2016-01-07T19:44:35 <wumpus> morcos: there's a way to run spellcheck on your source code and it will check only comments I think
1091 2016-01-07T19:44:40 <Luke-Jr> if we're going to begin using C++11 in 0.13, then I think we should have configure use C++11 to compile 0.12 by default (and fail loudly if unavailable)
1092 2016-01-07T19:44:58 <wumpus> don't know exctly how though :-)
1093 2016-01-07T19:45:04 <Luke-Jr> because once we start actually /using/ C++11, it will be difficult to go back
1094 2016-01-07T19:45:20 <cfields> Luke-Jr: that's not a bad idea.
1095 2016-01-07T19:45:24 <sipa> Luke-Jr: weak nak; i suggest compiling masting in both c++11 and c++03 in master now
1096 2016-01-07T19:45:33 <sipa> *compiling
1097 2016-01-07T19:45:43 <wumpus> I think we should just make the decision to use c++11
1098 2016-01-07T19:45:47 *** kadoban_ is now known as kadoban
1099 2016-01-07T19:45:52 <Luke-Jr> sipa: that's fine, as long as C++11 isn't required for 0.13
1100 2016-01-07T19:45:53 <wumpus> there's no way to go back, and that's ok
1101 2016-01-07T19:46:04 <jonasschnelli> how is c++11 related to a full remove of boost?
1102 2016-01-07T19:46:13 <cfields> wumpus: i believe Luke-Jr was talking about backporting
1103 2016-01-07T19:46:17 <sipa> cfields: after your PR, does c++11 compile?
1104 2016-01-07T19:46:18 <Luke-Jr> wumpus: that's okay, IF it actually is workable. which is far from clear.
1105 2016-01-07T19:46:24 <wumpus> jonasschnelli: c++11 takes over some parts that boost is now used for
1106 2016-01-07T19:46:25 *** chjj has quit IRC
1107 2016-01-07T19:46:32 <sipa> are we _ready_ with c++ for gitian/depends/...?
1108 2016-01-07T19:46:52 <wumpus> travis still needs a c++11 compiler
1109 2016-01-07T19:47:00 <cfields> sipa: yes. from my tests, all platforms compile bitcoin 100% now.
1110 2016-01-07T19:47:09 <cfields> sipa: still need to do depends, yes. i have that patch ready
1111 2016-01-07T19:47:23 <Luke-Jr> Users running the latest stable versions of major distros should not need to use depends/ to compile working dynamic binaries.
1112 2016-01-07T19:47:32 <cfields> yes, was working on getting travis in shape first. looking at options. looks like the easiest it just to install an updated gcc :\
1113 2016-01-07T19:47:42 <sipa> ugh
1114 2016-01-07T19:47:50 <droark> sipa: Armory used some C++11 code with Gitian and worked fine. I don't think the Core codebase needs to make Gitian-specific changes.
1115 2016-01-07T19:47:50 <wumpus> travis still can't do a newer distro?
1116 2016-01-07T19:47:52 <cfields> Luke-Jr: they don't. works with system libs
1117 2016-01-07T19:48:02 <morcos> cfields: that should be new Travis success message "all platforms compile bitcoin 100%"
1118 2016-01-07T19:48:03 <cfields> wumpus: yes, but not with caching
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1120 2016-01-07T19:48:10 <jonasschnelli> travis can use docker
1121 2016-01-07T19:48:15 *** wallet42 has quit IRC
1122 2016-01-07T19:48:16 <cfields> jonasschnelli: ^^
1123 2016-01-07T19:48:18 <wumpus> cfields: bleh :/
1124 2016-01-07T19:48:21 <sipa> well, the first point is we need travis to build *something* in c++11
1125 2016-01-07T19:48:37 <jonasschnelli> one of my bitcoin-core clone projects is now using c++11 with travis and gitian: https://github.com/digitalbitbox/dbb-app/blob/master/.travis.yml
1126 2016-01-07T19:48:40 <Luke-Jr> cfields: GCC 4.x at least has serious ABI problems that suggest that is unlikely.. and last I checked, I couldn't even compile Bitcoin Core with C++11
1127 2016-01-07T19:48:41 <wumpus> without caching it'd be useless, building depends every time
1128 2016-01-07T19:48:43 <cfields> i can have travis updated today using gcc 4.8, same as release builds
1129 2016-01-07T19:48:45 <sipa> once that is done and merged, i am fine with deciding whether to full switch or not
1130 2016-01-07T19:48:49 <wumpus> cfields: SGTM
1131 2016-01-07T19:49:07 <sipa> #action cfields enables c++11 build in travis
1132 2016-01-07T19:49:09 <cfields> Luke-Jr: see master as of ~12h ago
1133 2016-01-07T19:49:37 <Luke-Jr> cfields: cool, will try
1134 2016-01-07T19:50:09 <cfields> Luke-Jr: please report any build issues. i tried to ensure that any local setup will work
1135 2016-01-07T19:50:43 *** achow101 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1136 2016-01-07T19:50:44 <Luke-Jr> cfields: report on github, or IRC?
1137 2016-01-07T19:50:47 <cfields> morcos: you can add that to the success message :)
1138 2016-01-07T19:51:18 <Luke-Jr> httpserver.cpp:255:36: warning: âauto_ptrâ is deprecated (declared at /usr/lib/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.5/include/g++-v4/backward/auto_ptr.h:87) [-Wdeprecated-declarations]
1139 2016-01-07T19:51:24 <cfields> Luke-Jr: #7302 would be good, for posterity
1140 2016-01-07T19:51:47 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-dev
1141 2016-01-07T19:51:51 <wumpus> Luke-Jr: ignore that just a warning, we can't replace that without breaking c++03 compat
1142 2016-01-07T19:52:00 <sipa> Luke-Jr: it is a harmless warning; unique_ptr is compatible with auto_ptr's interface, but suoerior
1143 2016-01-07T19:52:07 <cfields> Luke-Jr: deprecated in c++11, but not removed. auto_ptr -> unique_ptr will be one of the first changes after c++11 is enabled
1144 2016-01-07T19:52:08 <Luke-Jr> makes sense
1145 2016-01-07T19:52:15 <Luke-Jr> /usr/include/boost/thread/future_error_code.hpp:36:53: error: âenum_typeâ is not a member of âboost::future_errcâ
1146 2016-01-07T19:52:17 <wumpus> but that gets too detailed, any other topics for the meeting?
1147 2016-01-07T19:52:22 <Luke-Jr> maybe my system boost at fault though
1148 2016-01-07T19:52:35 <Luke-Jr> will move this to -core-dev
1149 2016-01-07T19:52:39 <wumpus> whow, future_error_code
1150 2016-01-07T19:53:04 * jonasschnelli is wondering how we solve the c++11 mutex stuff for mingw (one we move away from boost)
1151 2016-01-07T19:53:08 <sipa> small status update: segnet will do a backwark incompatible change soon, to change the commitment structure; after that, first priority is getting mining code to work with it
1152 2016-01-07T19:53:16 <cfields> can we get a very quick/general segwit status update. i've seen a few things flying around
1153 2016-01-07T19:53:23 *** jaclupi has joined #bitcoin-dev
1154 2016-01-07T19:53:27 <cfields> heh, thanks :)
1155 2016-01-07T19:53:27 <sipa> cfields: ^
1156 2016-01-07T19:53:28 <wumpus> #topic segwit status update
1157 2016-01-07T19:53:42 <CodeShark> segnet has been up since dec 31
1158 2016-01-07T19:53:51 <Luke-Jr> sipa: still working on that
1159 2016-01-07T19:53:54 <sipa> i will also produce a separate branch with just consensus changes
1160 2016-01-07T19:54:25 <sipa> which could be perhaos backportable further back than 0.12
1161 2016-01-07T19:54:25 * jtimon agrees with Luke-Jr on working on top of last-0.12.99 3cd836c1 when possible
1162 2016-01-07T19:55:23 <sipa> jtimon: what is the advantage over using 0.12?
1163 2016-01-07T19:55:32 <sipa> ah, 0.12 is still moving
1164 2016-01-07T19:55:42 <sipa> ok, will rebase on that
1165 2016-01-07T19:55:44 <Luke-Jr> sipa: 0.12 won't merge into master nicely
1166 2016-01-07T19:55:48 <wumpus> yes, 0.12 is still moving
1167 2016-01-07T19:55:54 <sipa> jtimon: ack
1168 2016-01-07T19:56:41 <sipa> 4 min
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1170 2016-01-07T19:56:58 <btcdrak> sipa: nothing more on segwit?
1171 2016-01-07T19:57:19 <CodeShark> it works? :)
1172 2016-01-07T19:57:48 <jonasschnelli> hah
1173 2016-01-07T19:58:27 <Luke-Jr> meeting over then?
1174 2016-01-07T19:58:32 <wumpus> #endmeeting
1175 2016-01-07T19:58:32 <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 7 19:58:32 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1176 2016-01-07T19:58:32 <lightningbot`> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-07-19.00.html
1177 2016-01-07T19:58:32 <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-07-19.00.txt
1178 2016-01-07T19:58:32 <lightningbot`> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-07-19.00.log.html
1179 2016-01-07T19:58:51 <Luke-Jr> k, bbiab again
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1202 2016-01-07T20:28:40 <jonasschnelli> CodeShark: re: https://github.com/CodeShark/BitcoinScriptExperiments, .. did you push segwit compat. CoinCore code somewhere?
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1204 2016-01-07T20:28:45 <jonasschnelli> Stuff like .getSerializedWithWitness()?
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1206 2016-01-07T20:28:59 <jonasschnelli> or TxInWitness
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1208 2016-01-07T20:30:09 <CodeShark> Ah, yes - it's the segwit branch of https://github.com/ciphrex/mSIGNA
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1210 2016-01-07T20:30:47 <CodeShark> Although I just made some more changes to it I have not pushed yet
1211 2016-01-07T20:31:20 <jonasschnelli> np... thanks
1212 2016-01-07T20:31:41 <jtimon> sipa to rebase from last-0.12.99 3cd836c1 to master you don't need to remove some commits like you would need if rebasing from 0.12 to master
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1214 2016-01-07T20:33:31 <MarcoFalke> If a brach rebased on 3cd836c1 merges fine into master and 0.12, that should be preferred, always.
1215 2016-01-07T20:33:45 <sipa> jtimon: ok
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1219 2016-01-07T20:35:53 * jtimon sighs when reading -segnet instead of -chain=segnet and remembers #5229 and hopes #6907 doesn't take much longer...
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1246 2016-01-07T21:26:21 <Chris_Stewart_5> Is this documentation explaining how OP_CHECKSIG works still relevant?
1247 2016-01-07T21:26:23 <Chris_Stewart_5> https://en.bitcoin.it/w/images/en/7/70/Bitcoin_OpCheckSig_InDetail.png
1248 2016-01-07T21:26:59 <Chris_Stewart_5> also, is this transaction type specific? I.e. this is how it works for p2pkh only
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1309 2016-01-07T22:26:07 <jtimon> by the way, would it make sense to create a git label on 3cd836c1 (maybe called last-0.12.99 ) like we do, for example, with release candidates like v0.9.0rc2 ?
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1311 2016-01-07T22:27:20 <Luke-Jr> branch- makes more sense than last-
1312 2016-01-07T22:27:33 <Luke-Jr> but a non-annotated tag may make sense
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1315 2016-01-07T22:30:14 <jcorgan> do any of the block explorers offer their calculated hashrate distribution figures as part of an API?
1316 2016-01-07T22:30:44 <jcorgan> or somewhere else i can get at the numbers underneath something like this: https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/pools
1317 2016-01-07T22:33:41 <jtimon> Luke-Jr: sure, branch-0.12.99, last-0.12.99, whatever
1318 2016-01-07T22:33:48 <jtimon> wumpus: thoughts ?
1319 2016-01-07T22:35:00 <Luke-Jr> branch-0.12 might be clearer
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1323 2016-01-07T22:35:58 <MarcoFalke> last-0.11.99, not last-0.12.99 ?
1324 2016-01-07T22:37:04 <jtimon> MarcoFalke: no, now master is 0.13.99 until we branch 0.13 out of master
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1328 2016-01-07T22:38:20 <MarcoFalke> jtimon, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/c12ff995f7d70aafb12f34887fb64aa7482bbc85
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1332 2016-01-07T22:40:52 <jtimon> MarcoFalke: oops, you're right. I've been naming my branches wrong for a while then (I hope that's not the reason they weren't merged :p)
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1334 2016-01-07T22:41:26 <jtimon> to me last-0.11.99 is clearer than branch-0.12, but as said, whatever
1335 2016-01-07T22:41:58 <jtimon> all I want is something more memorable than 3cd836c1
1336 2016-01-07T22:42:15 <MarcoFalke> Or just tag with "0.11.99"?
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1339 2016-01-07T22:42:48 <jtimon> yep, I like just 0.11.99
1340 2016-01-07T22:43:19 <jtimon> or maybe v0.11.99
1341 2016-01-07T22:43:32 <MarcoFalke> I have a tag locally. I can live without having it tagged in bitcoin/bitcoin ^^
1342 2016-01-07T22:44:10 <jtimon> me too, and I suspect we're not the only 2
1343 2016-01-07T22:44:27 <jtimon> of course this is not a big deal, just an idea
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1349 2016-01-07T22:50:03 <Yoghur114_2> hypothetical: SW is rolled out, and a script update is being rolled out on top of it - after activation, some miners are - for any reason - left behind and are mining using unupgraded nodes (like BIP66 - sort of), there is now a situation where I might spend upgraded-script transactions (anyone-can-spend to unupgraded nodes) into something that was valid previously, hope for the best it gets picked up by an old miner and gets accepted into, say, a
1350 2016-01-07T22:50:04 <Yoghur114_2> chain 2-3 deep that'll be orphaned some time later, I might then spend those to merchants that haven't upgraded - essentially, I'm now spending money I don't have. Barring all practical reasons this might not happen, and ignoring the fact this chain will be orphaned. Would it be a reasonable solution for a wallet to /not/ accept transactions that have an anyone-can-spend tx they have no consensus frame for (like updated segwit transactions would) in
1351 2016-01-07T22:50:06 <Yoghur114_2> all (or up to some depth) of the transaction's history to prevent that merchant from being defrauded?
1352 2016-01-07T22:50:18 <Yoghur114_2> yeez wall of text, sorry
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1356 2016-01-07T22:51:54 <Luke-Jr> Yoghur114_2: current miners will NEVER pick up segwit transactions
1357 2016-01-07T22:52:09 <Yoghur114_2> I mean, that would quite decisively solve any left-over risk of theft while updating, wouldn't it?
1358 2016-01-07T22:52:20 <Yoghur114_2> luke-jr ah yes, but - the adversarial case, then
1359 2016-01-07T22:52:26 <Luke-Jr> it's even theoretically possible that pre-segwit miners may continue to work on the new chain
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1362 2016-01-07T22:53:30 <Luke-Jr> Yoghur114_2: the adversarial case basically requires you to be a miner
1363 2016-01-07T22:54:23 <Luke-Jr> anyhow, while we humans talk about it as "anyone-can-spend", actually detecting that condition is not trivial for software
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1365 2016-01-07T22:56:02 <jtimon> it's also confusing with the anyone can spend sighash
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1367 2016-01-07T22:56:19 <jtimon> I suggest finding some other term
1368 2016-01-07T22:57:56 <Yoghur114_2> well, it'll simply be "I have no idea what anything with these versions might be, but whatever it is, it'll be valid to me" is it not? They can't derive any meaning from it, and will ignore the implication it might have - but allow it
1369 2016-01-07T22:57:57 <NicolasDorier> actually myself I thought it referred to the sighash before reading the bip
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1372 2016-01-07T22:59:30 <Luke-Jr> "I have no idea what anything with these versions might be, but whatever it is, it'll be valid to me" does not exist in the current protocol; it is a new feature being introduced with segwit
1373 2016-01-07T23:00:30 <Yoghur114_2> right - they're pretty easy to detect I would imagine?
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1375 2016-01-07T23:01:02 <Yoghur114_2> if nVersion > x then echo 'wat'
1376 2016-01-07T23:01:39 <Luke-Jr> Yoghur114_2: yeah, except all pre-segwit software was released.. a long time ago
1377 2016-01-07T23:01:48 <Luke-Jr> can't change the past
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1379 2016-01-07T23:04:14 <phantomcircuit> is there a meta list for the -dev and -discuss lists?
1380 2016-01-07T23:04:25 <Luke-Jr> phantomcircuit: -discuss
1381 2016-01-07T23:04:30 <phantomcircuit> ok
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1384 2016-01-07T23:05:54 <Yoghur114_2> Luke-Jr: I'm not sure why they're relevant?
1385 2016-01-07T23:06:10 <Luke-Jr> â¦
1386 2016-01-07T23:06:24 <Yoghur114_2> to the specific case in the hypothetical, I mean
1387 2016-01-07T23:06:55 <Yoghur114_2> (ignoring that miners wouldn't mine updated segwits)
1388 2016-01-07T23:07:23 <Luke-Jr> it's too late to implement that
1389 2016-01-07T23:10:54 <jtimon> but we could implement those kind of warnings so that next time is not too late again
1390 2016-01-07T23:13:13 <Yoghur114_2> oh I'm not suggesting to implement that still - was wondering whether that would effectively eliminate another edgiest of edge cases
1391 2016-01-07T23:13:57 <Luke-Jr> potentially, but if you're not careful it might also eliminate fungibility
1392 2016-01-07T23:14:38 <Luke-Jr> /actually/⦠I think we might have the highest degree of that possible, already
1393 2016-01-07T23:14:46 <Luke-Jr> since nodes will currently reject segwit from their mempool
1394 2016-01-07T23:14:59 <Luke-Jr> and without the parent txns, the descendents won't be accepted either
1395 2016-01-07T23:15:06 <Luke-Jr> so it would never get to the wallet
1396 2016-01-07T23:16:30 <Yoghur114_2> that only applies when unconfirmed, no?
1397 2016-01-07T23:19:46 <Luke-Jr> yes, if you made it apply to confirmed transactions, you break fungibility
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1401 2016-01-07T23:27:49 <Yoghur114_2> but it'd be just a wallet saying "well, this here transaction I'm receiving has a fishy parent, I'm saying nope until you're another dozen or so blocks down" - which, because of segwit, is now something we can explicitly do - whereas previously the 'fishiness' of transactions was impossible to determine. It technically would break fungibility in the sense that a transaction is treated differently based on some arbitrary indicator - but that wouldn't
1402 2016-01-07T23:27:50 <Yoghur114_2> last longer than some small amount of blocks, until a wallet is sufficiently sure it is not tracking an attacking chain (it might not know about), and it only applies to the window wherein a node hasn't yet upgraded
1403 2016-01-07T23:29:16 <Yoghur114_2> in other words, it would only break fungibility in the same way that altcoin exchange thing... shapeshift? breaks fungibility by not accepting 0-conf nil-fee transactions, and does accept greenaddress txs - so not really at all
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