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   4 2016-01-14T00:05:54  <benjyz1> I understand if one wants to argue one way or another. technical here however simply means: remaining fully anonymous
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   7 2016-01-14T00:09:14  <rael_wiki> hi, I am using python-bitcoinlib to perform rpc calls to a bitcon node. I deal with amounts in satoshis, so, when I send an amount to my node via rpc, I need to convert the amount to BTC. That means my amounts turn from integers to floats. To avoid rounding I wanted to use python's Decimals but doing so, when python-bitcoinlib's module receives my dictionary and tries to convert it to json, it is not able to convert decimals. Any help on how to send
   8 2016-01-14T00:09:42  <rael_wiki> Any help on how to send such requests without losing precision?
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  37 2016-01-14T01:07:09  <alpalp> real_wiki: format as a string, padding with zeros
  38 2016-01-14T01:07:15  <alpalp> rael_wiki, see above
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  48 2016-01-14T01:26:14  <alpalp> if you are using python-bitcoinlib you have enough precision with with floats.
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  51 2016-01-14T01:32:06  <nwilcox> What's the roadmap for ./src/json? Is it being maintained/improved or replaced?
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  54 2016-01-14T01:34:11  <rael_wiki> alpalp: thank you, I can't use a string padded with zeroes because the rpc protocol requires a json real number
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  56 2016-01-14T01:34:38  <rael_wiki> alpalp: so can I be sure that python floats are never rounded before the 8th decimal?
  57 2016-01-14T01:36:01  <alpalp> no worse than JSON real's.
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  63 2016-01-14T01:41:37  <alpalp> 64-bit floating point numbers give you about 15-17 significant digits.
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  66 2016-01-14T01:43:02  <rael_wiki> alpalp: all right, thank you
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  68 2016-01-14T01:45:14  <Luke-Jr> rael_wiki: have fun https://github.com/jgarzik/python-bitcoinrpc/pull/63
  69 2016-01-14T01:45:42  <Luke-Jr> alpalp: JSON does not have "real's"
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  71 2016-01-14T01:45:57  <alpalp> the python lib does.
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  73 2016-01-14T01:48:00  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: yeah, sorry, with JSON 'reals' I meant a numeric type (i.e. 2.75 instead of the string '2.75')
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  75 2016-01-14T01:48:48  <Luke-Jr> rael_wiki: I think python-bitcoinlib is based on python-bitcoinrpc, so you can probably port the fix
  76 2016-01-14T01:49:08  <alpalp> should have just used satoshis :(
  77 2016-01-14T01:49:32  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: thanks a lot for your pull request
  78 2016-01-14T01:51:42  <Luke-Jr> alpalp: yes
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  80 2016-01-14T01:53:45  <merlincorey> Luke-Jr: what is the fix?
  81 2016-01-14T01:53:57  <Luke-Jr> merlincorey: encoding the Decimal type correctly
  82 2016-01-14T01:54:54  <merlincorey> I use that library (python-bitcoinrpc) -- so I guess mine is already patched
  83 2016-01-14T01:55:08  <merlincorey> what is good about python-bitcoinlib over it?
  84 2016-01-14T01:55:16  <merlincorey> (general question)
  85 2016-01-14T01:55:26  <Luke-Jr> merlincorey: I just submitted the PR for the fix, so you wouldn't have it..
  86 2016-01-14T01:55:45  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: now that you mention it, I've recently had to change the code of that library for my personal use. In fact, when running ~10 processes which concurrently performed rpc requests to a single 0.11 bitcoin node, the node got stuck at random points. After investigating it a bit, I believe it was because those different processes often sent the same request id, which, I think in some way messed up with the node's management of requests.
  87 2016-01-14T01:55:47  <merlincorey> Luke-Jr: then I WILL have it :P
  88 2016-01-14T01:55:54  <merlincorey> Luke-Jr: but I don't use Decimal type anyway
  89 2016-01-14T01:56:12  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: I fixed it by changing the library so that concurrent processes always use different request ids. If you want some more details I can send you some more data and the code that apparently fixed the issue.
  90 2016-01-14T01:56:35  <Luke-Jr> rael_wiki: are you the same person who reported that a few hours ago?
  91 2016-01-14T01:56:45  <Luke-Jr> lorenzoasr
  92 2016-01-14T01:57:01  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: me and that user ( lorenzoasr ) are working together on this
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  94 2016-01-14T01:58:42  <Luke-Jr> ok, so not independent confirmation :x
  95 2016-01-14T01:59:46  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: I just mentioned it to have some more opinions about it, if you have any idea about the reason why that happend or a better fix I would gladly hear it ;)
  96 2016-01-14T02:01:18  <Luke-Jr> rael_wiki: if you want to help track it down, it'd be nice to have a rpc test that can reproduce it (see qa/rpc-tests dir)
  97 2016-01-14T02:06:04  <rael_wiki> Luke-Jr: we'd gladly look into it, although not today, as it's 3AM at the moment where I'm writing from. In case, if we have any doubts about how to write those tests we will ask in this channel
  98 2016-01-14T02:06:50  <Luke-Jr> >_<
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 157 2016-01-14T02:55:37  <petertodd> rael_wiki: python-bitcoinlib uses python integers internally; conversion to/from on the RPC layer is done at the last minute, so any conversion issues have to be fixed there
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 394 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> I'm trying to create a new genesis block for my experiement.
 395 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> I've replaced the block hash, the timestamp, the time, the nonce and the merkle in the source code.
 396 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> But when starting bitcoin i get the error: "bitcoind: chainparams.cpp:124: CMainParams::CMainParams(): Assertion `consensus.hashGenesisBlock == uint256S("0x00000000a26e561bb46c262b714ea6495fd7de8b83b70dba20a1e50bebcb6496")' failed.
 397 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> Aborted (core dumped)"
 398 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> http://pastebin.com/bM0Fvw23
 399 2016-01-14T11:56:57  <halvors> That is my generated block
 400 2016-01-14T11:57:11  <halvors> Any ideas what i'm doing wrong here?
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 411 2016-01-14T12:15:05  <paveljanik> halvors, here, the only thing you are doing wrong, is asking your questions. Different hash of genesis block -> altcoin -> off topic. You have to find the assert in the source code and change it... Look at src/chainparams.cpp#78. But please ask in #altcoins or elsewhere. Thank you.
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 442 2016-01-14T13:11:02  <halvors> It's tecnically still bitcoin. Just want to experiement with the technology :)
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 477 2016-01-14T14:11:06  <Chris_Stewart_5> Morning everyone!
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 502 2016-01-14T14:59:22  <dhill> PSA, openssh users -> https://twitter.com/marver/status/687643518861471745
 503 2016-01-14T14:59:31  <dhill> UseRoaming no in your ssh_config
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 544 2016-01-14T16:37:17  <Luke-Jr> http://www.mail-archive.com/misc@openbsd.org/msg144351.html
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 602 2016-01-14T17:46:39  <bsm117532> I'm trying to understand this extension block/generalized soft fork discussion. Do I understand correctly that the 1MB standard bitcoin block must have an additional anyone-can-spend or an anyone-can-pay output in the coinbase, corresponding to netting out the extension block?
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 605 2016-01-14T17:50:09  <maaku> bsm117532: there are many ways to implement extension blocks
 606 2016-01-14T17:50:38  <maaku> i'm not sure why that would be necessary
 607 2016-01-14T17:51:11  <gavinandresen> hey maaku, you busy?  I'm thinking about validation cost metrics today...  https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/4135d03a56e0ecd146c7
 608 2016-01-14T17:51:13  <bsm117532> Ok then how to you net out the contents of the extension block?
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 610 2016-01-14T17:51:46  <bsm117532> Depending on how it was implemented, it might look like coin creation to old clients (so be invalid).
 611 2016-01-14T17:52:18  <maaku> gavinandresen: jonas nick would be the one to talk to ... i actually don't know his nick if he is on here
 612 2016-01-14T17:52:43  <gavinandresen> maaku: thanks, I'll see if I have his email and if not ask you to connect us
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 614 2016-01-14T17:52:45  <maaku> he has a solid metric that predicts validation cost with really good accuracy, it was presented at Scaling Bitcoin HK
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 616 2016-01-14T17:53:03  <jonasschnelli> nickler is his nick i guess
 617 2016-01-14T17:53:16  <maaku> bsm117532: what do you mean "net out" and why do you need to do that?
 618 2016-01-14T17:53:44  <maaku> bsm117532: extension block is a sidechain. you use the two-way peg to move between them
 619 2016-01-14T17:53:49  <gavinandresen> to save me looking at the code... is the segwit soft fork going to use accurate sigop counting or the inaccurate old method?
 620 2016-01-14T17:53:53  *** t7 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 621 2016-01-14T17:53:57  <bsm117532> maaku: The sum of all transactions in the extension block have to go somewhere, as seen by old clients...
 622 2016-01-14T17:54:07  <maaku> bsm117532: nope, they don't
 623 2016-01-14T17:54:17  <bsm117532> Ok, why not?
 624 2016-01-14T17:54:34  <maaku> why would they? old clients don't see the extension block, they don't care at all what happens there
 625 2016-01-14T17:55:02  <bsm117532> So funds that got transferred in an extension block would always have to stay in the extension block?
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 627 2016-01-14T17:56:10  <instagibbs> "nickler" is his irc nick but he aint on
 628 2016-01-14T17:56:19  <instagibbs> oh wait, yes he is
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 632 2016-01-14T17:57:10  <maaku> bsm117532: same as a sidechain (which an extension block is) -- btc is parked in an output of a specific form when it moves into an extension block
 633 2016-01-14T17:57:11  *** BlueMatt has joined #bitcoin-dev
 634 2016-01-14T17:57:16  <jonasschnelli> gavinandresen: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/0f9efb009ac84298f57d51ee2283f2c6bdc9b451
 635 2016-01-14T17:57:30  <maaku> when you move funds out, you claim one or more of these parked outputs
 636 2016-01-14T17:57:37  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-dev
 637 2016-01-14T17:57:42  <maaku> no need to involve coinbase or miners
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 639 2016-01-14T17:58:59  <bsm117532> If the miners are not involved then this is a lot of new logic in the side of wallets, no?
 640 2016-01-14T17:59:09  <maaku> i don't follow
 641 2016-01-14T17:59:11  <bsm117532> OTOH couldn't miners "hide" some transactions in this manner?
 642 2016-01-14T17:59:24  <gavinandresen> jonasschnelli: thanks... that's using the kinda-sort-accurate p2sh counting method, not the absolutely-accurate method I implemented for BIP101 and would be used with a validation cost metric.
 643 2016-01-14T18:00:06  *** IanT_ has joined #bitcoin-dev
 644 2016-01-14T18:00:23  <bsm117532> maaku: Who is "you" in your above sentence?  It's either the miner or the user and his wallet, crafting this kind of tx.
 645 2016-01-14T18:00:32  <jonasschnelli> gavinandresen: open a PR on sipas segwith2 branch: https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/pulls   :-)
 646 2016-01-14T18:00:38  <instagibbs> gavinandresen, nickler and I used your branch for the talk, with a bunch of stuff tacked on
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 648 2016-01-14T18:01:47  <maaku> bsm117532: yes, using the extension block at all (not just moving funds) requires wallet upgrades
 649 2016-01-14T18:01:50  <gavinandresen> jonasschnelli: just thinking through whether or not it would matter in the future-- not worth the extra complexity if it won't
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 651 2016-01-14T18:02:20  <maaku> bsm117532: i really don't understand what you are trying to do involving a miner, or really what miners have to do with anything here
 652 2016-01-14T18:02:22  <jonasschnelli> Agreed. To bad sipa is not here.
 653 2016-01-14T18:02:58  <gavinandresen> If a validation metric dynamic limit would have to be done as a hard fork, then I don't think it matters-- the counting rule can change willy-nilly.
 654 2016-01-14T18:03:02  <maaku> gavinandresen: It is my intention to propose replacing the cost accounting sipa wrote with nickler's cost metric
 655 2016-01-14T18:03:41  <maaku> i should have mentioned though that instagibbs knows quite a bit about this as well
 656 2016-01-14T18:03:44  <gavinandresen> maaku: before the segwit soft fork or after ?
 657 2016-01-14T18:03:52  <bsm117532> Not trying to "do" anything, just trying to understand how it would work. Miners are creating these new blocks so there must be some kind of rules as to their structure.
 658 2016-01-14T18:03:57  <instagibbs> https://github.com/instagibbs/bitcoin/tree/rt
 659 2016-01-14T18:04:00  <maaku> he and nickler organized the HK talk regarding this
 660 2016-01-14T18:04:13  <maaku> gavinandresen: before
 661 2016-01-14T18:04:38  <gavinandresen> maaku: awesome
 662 2016-01-14T18:04:58  <maaku> gavinandresen: no idea if I can get others to agree though :P
 663 2016-01-14T18:05:00  <bsm117532> What I'm actually noodling about is making the beads in a braid be actual bitcoin blocks, and soft-forking it in this way. The beads in the braid become "extension blocks" in exactly the same way.
 664 2016-01-14T18:05:02  <gavinandresen> I won't bother sipa about the vague statement in the segwit spec about sigop counting :)
 665 2016-01-14T18:06:13  <maaku> bsm117532: it's easiest to understand extension blocks as sidechains -- read the sidechains whitepaper if you need to know how those work
 666 2016-01-14T18:06:47  <bsm117532> I'll read it again. That's not the only way to do it though, right?
 667 2016-01-14T18:06:47  <maaku> the extension block is a sidechain exactly like bitcoin in every way, and the sidechain peg between the two is consensus-enforced (full nodes watch both blocks)
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 669 2016-01-14T18:07:13  <maaku> bsm117532: sure there's an infinite number of ways to do it, but that's certainly the reference way
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 673 2016-01-14T18:07:55  <bsm117532> Ok.  At first I didn't like this idea at all but I'm coming around. It's certainly better than a hard fork.
 674 2016-01-14T18:08:48  <BlueMatt> bsm117532: eww
 675 2016-01-14T18:08:57  <BlueMatt> bsm117532: its listed under the "risks" section in the sidechains whitepaper for a reason
 676 2016-01-14T18:09:26  <bsm117532> Do the wallet modifications have to diddle with whether their tx's appear in extension blocks, utxo's were in extension blocks, etc?  Or is as simple as wallets broadcasting a new tx version number?
 677 2016-01-14T18:09:46  <BlueMatt> the first one
 678 2016-01-14T18:09:55  <bsm117532> Ok, then yuck.
 679 2016-01-14T18:10:05  <bsm117532> That's why I was thinking about miners doing it.
 680 2016-01-14T18:10:08  <BlueMatt> and a bunch of logic for moving your coins out of the extension block to pay someone who hasnt "opted into this blocksize increase"
 681 2016-01-14T18:10:13  <BlueMatt> it really is not a softfork
 682 2016-01-14T18:10:26  <BlueMatt> i mean is, but the way it works it is really, really not
 683 2016-01-14T18:10:54  <maaku> it really is gross
 684 2016-01-14T18:11:10  <bsm117532> But if miners put things into extension blocks, without cooperation of wallets... it fucks up SPV, no?
 685 2016-01-14T18:11:15  <maaku> also, it's a tiny tiny itsy bitsy step from there to evil fork
 686 2016-01-14T18:11:48  <BlueMatt> bsm117532: if you do that you'll fuck up any number of things
 687 2016-01-14T18:12:14  <BlueMatt> bsm117532: one other issue is that the decision about whether a transaction can be in the "other block" needs to be picked by the receiver
 688 2016-01-14T18:12:15  <BlueMatt> not the sender
 689 2016-01-14T18:12:34  <bsm117532> Well, old nodes have a divergent utxo set.
 690 2016-01-14T18:12:38  <bsm117532> BlueMatt: ah I see...
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 692 2016-01-14T18:13:01  <maaku> bsm117532: you can't let the utxo set diverge
 693 2016-01-14T18:13:11  <maaku> that's definately a failure mode
 694 2016-01-14T18:13:23  <bsm117532> That's why I rejected the idea when I first heard it...
 695 2016-01-14T18:13:41  <maaku> right ok, and that's the reason for the sidechain mechanism
 696 2016-01-14T18:13:58  <maaku> the classic blocks and the extension blocks have different utxo sets
 697 2016-01-14T18:14:12  <bsm117532> Ok I think I understand better, thanks.  Will look over the sidechain paper again. But I think I might just omit the topic from the braids paper.
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 722 2016-01-14T18:59:51  <wumpus> meeting?
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 724 2016-01-14T18:59:58  <btcdrak> wumpus ack
 725 2016-01-14T19:00:05  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 726 2016-01-14T19:00:05  <lightningbot`> Meeting started Thu Jan 14 19:00:05 2016 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 727 2016-01-14T19:00:05  <lightningbot`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 728 2016-01-14T19:00:11  <kanzure> can we get some links to the segwit bips?
 729 2016-01-14T19:00:11  *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
 730 2016-01-14T19:00:23  <wumpus> where?
 731 2016-01-14T19:00:57  <kanzure> ah okay, found them.
 732 2016-01-14T19:01:00  <wumpus> any topics?
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 734 2016-01-14T19:01:13  <kanzure> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0141.mediawiki https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0142.mediawiki https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0143.mediawiki https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0144.mediawiki
 735 2016-01-14T19:01:13  <btcdrak> kanzure: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/README.mediawiki
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 737 2016-01-14T19:01:42  <jtimon> I would like to talk about consensus code encapsulation if there's time
 738 2016-01-14T19:01:55  <morcos> i would like to talk about versionbits
 739 2016-01-14T19:02:09  <jtimon> +1 versionbits as topic
 740 2016-01-14T19:02:12  <btcdrak> ack on versionbits
 741 2016-01-14T19:02:13  <wumpus> ok, let's start with versionbits
 742 2016-01-14T19:02:14  <cfields> second both of those
 743 2016-01-14T19:02:15  <wumpus> #topic versionbits
 744 2016-01-14T19:02:24  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6816
 745 2016-01-14T19:02:24  *** MarcoFalke has joined #bitcoin-dev
 746 2016-01-14T19:02:42  <morcos> ok, i'm volunteering to take over championing this as both rusty and CodeShark say they are busy on other things
 747 2016-01-14T19:02:48  *** sipa has joined #bitcoin-dev
 748 2016-01-14T19:02:50  <wumpus> great!
 749 2016-01-14T19:02:51  <btcdrak> CodeShark updates his implementation #6816 and rebased to current master
 750 2016-01-14T19:02:58  *** devrando2 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 751 2016-01-14T19:03:01  <btcdrak> *updated
 752 2016-01-14T19:03:04  <morcos> btcdrak: i don't know if i'm going to use his implementation or not
 753 2016-01-14T19:03:15  <morcos> i'd like to spend some time reviewing what rusty did first and then decide
 754 2016-01-14T19:03:15  <btcdrak> morcos: sure just a data point.
 755 2016-01-14T19:03:26  <morcos> so lets not ask people to review yetg
 756 2016-01-14T19:03:38  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin/compare/bip-9-versionbits
 757 2016-01-14T19:03:40  <morcos> but the general point i wanted to make
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 759 2016-01-14T19:03:53  <jtimon> I had some feedback for the "API" for both CodeShark's and rusty's implementation
 760 2016-01-14T19:04:10  <morcos> is i feel fairly strongly about trying to implement segwit in a way that will be compatible with other implementations possibly trying to do something else at the same time
 761 2016-01-14T19:04:23  <jtimon> IMO they we're both more complecated than needed while not flexible enough chainparams-wise
 762 2016-01-14T19:04:42  <morcos> if the other implementations are not using nVersion for their signaling, then we have no problem doing whatever we want
 763 2016-01-14T19:04:44  <btcdrak> morcos: I agree, versionbits BIP9 spec should have a final implementation.
 764 2016-01-14T19:04:59  <morcos> however if they are, then not conflicting will be important so users of other versions can also support segwit
 765 2016-01-14T19:05:06  <morcos> i'm bringing this all up
 766 2016-01-14T19:05:07  <sipa> ack there
 767 2016-01-14T19:05:30  <morcos> b/c if we agree with this approach, it may be necessary to front burner version bits to go along with segwit
 768 2016-01-14T19:05:32  <jtimon> morcos if you are interested on early review of your "API" (the functions that are going to be called from outside) I'm happy to do so
 769 2016-01-14T19:05:54  <morcos> jtimon: ok, well let me get started first
 770 2016-01-14T19:06:24  <jtimon> morcos: sure, or maybe I can suggest an empty skeleton for you to consider?
 771 2016-01-14T19:06:28  <morcos> anyway thats all i wanted to say, but i think its helpful to set expectations on priorities
 772 2016-01-14T19:06:42  *** treehug88 has joined #bitcoin-dev
 773 2016-01-14T19:07:07  <morcos> jtimon: i'm probably going to start from rusty's code or codeshark's.  i think there may be time pressure to get this done quickly so i don't want to start from scratch.
 774 2016-01-14T19:07:34  <Luke-Jr> (would like to see versionbits become less tied to Core's implementation if possible)
 775 2016-01-14T19:07:51  <morcos> Luke-Jr: what do you mean?
 776 2016-01-14T19:07:58  <jtimon> morcos: fine, I can repeat the same suggestions I had for them I guess
 777 2016-01-14T19:07:59  <btcdrak> Luke-Jr: so long as it follows the BIP9 it shouldnt matter
 778 2016-01-14T19:08:00  *** rawdr has quit IRC
 779 2016-01-14T19:08:02  <morcos> like all that should matter is the spec?
 780 2016-01-14T19:08:24  <morcos> i agree with that, but making sure we have it implemented will help make sure there aren't issues with the spec and that we also have it in time to use
 781 2016-01-14T19:08:31  <Luke-Jr> morcos: well, right now it implies Core's intepreting the 4 initial bytes of the block header as a little-endian number
 782 2016-01-14T19:08:39  <Luke-Jr> whereas it's proposed to deal with individual bits
 783 2016-01-14T19:08:42  <morcos> i'm not going to take on the role of trying to handle how anyone else implements it
 784 2016-01-14T19:08:49  <sipa> Luke-Jr: that's a detail
 785 2016-01-14T19:08:50  <Luke-Jr> so it ought to just refer to the bits and bytes in order
 786 2016-01-14T19:08:53  <jtimon> btcdrak: well, other things matter too (ie consensus code encapsulation)
 787 2016-01-14T19:09:04  <wumpus> morcos: right, you shouldn't
 788 2016-01-14T19:09:06  <Luke-Jr> sipa: yes, a minor one, but one I'd prefer to see cleaned up :p
 789 2016-01-14T19:09:14  <sipa> i think this discussion is going into details that can be discussed on a PR
 790 2016-01-14T19:09:22  <wumpus> morcos: don't let too many details and other people's minor concerns distract you
 791 2016-01-14T19:09:31  <Luke-Jr> k, drop that topic for now
 792 2016-01-14T19:09:43  <morcos> wumpus: ok.  yes. we can move on from the whole topic now i think.
 793 2016-01-14T19:09:49  <btcdrak> topic suggestion, status report on segwit
 794 2016-01-14T19:10:03  <wumpus> #topic status of segwit
 795 2016-01-14T19:10:04  <btcdrak> topic suggestion, 0.12 status
 796 2016-01-14T19:10:10  <sipa> segnet3 coming up soon
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 798 2016-01-14T19:10:21  <Luke-Jr> we've dropped trying to do merge-mining in the same softfork
 799 2016-01-14T19:10:27  <sipa> indeed
 800 2016-01-14T19:10:44  <sipa> sorry, i'm packing and about to travel, little time now
 801 2016-01-14T19:11:18  <wumpus> ok, no problem, let's leave the topic for next week
 802 2016-01-14T19:11:28  <btcdrak> let me link bips for the logs
 803 2016-01-14T19:11:31  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0141.mediawiki
 804 2016-01-14T19:11:32  <Luke-Jr> also, I assigned the BIP drafts to 141-144 to make 14x a "anti-malleability" range
 805 2016-01-14T19:11:38  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0142.mediawiki
 806 2016-01-14T19:11:43  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0143.mediawiki
 807 2016-01-14T19:11:48  <btcdrak> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0144.mediawiki
 808 2016-01-14T19:12:13  <Luke-Jr> or maybe 14x will just become segwit if it goes active as expected
 809 2016-01-14T19:12:32  <wumpus> good to know
 810 2016-01-14T19:13:05  <jtimon> 0.12 status?
 811 2016-01-14T19:13:06  <wumpus> #topic 0.12 status
 812 2016-01-14T19:13:19  <wumpus> I've tagged 0.12.0rc1 yesterday
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 814 2016-01-14T19:13:23  <morcos> twice!
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 816 2016-01-14T19:13:31  <btcdrak> do it again :)
 817 2016-01-14T19:13:31  <cfields> haha
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 819 2016-01-14T19:13:46  <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7149 needs reviews, but maybe too late for 0.12.0
 820 2016-01-14T19:13:52  <wumpus> yes, twice, the first time it didn't build due to a last-minute merge, my fault
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 822 2016-01-14T19:13:59  <sdaftuar> that's ok, i blame morcos
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 824 2016-01-14T19:14:10  <Luke-Jr> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7339 and https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7340 should have been in 0.12.0, but are extremely late and possibly impractical to get in
 825 2016-01-14T19:14:33  <cfields> gitian builders: i pushed sigs, but there's a small issue with attaching the sigs. see #7342 for the fix.
 826 2016-01-14T19:15:10  <wumpus> cfields: does this mean can we still build rc1, or need a new rc?
 827 2016-01-14T19:15:14  <Luke-Jr> mostly minor backports in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7338
 828 2016-01-14T19:15:20  <wumpus> preliminary release notes:
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 830 2016-01-14T19:15:23  <wumpus> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.12/doc/release-notes.md
 831 2016-01-14T19:15:36  <cfields> wumpus: rc1 is fine, just fix up the descriptor locally
 832 2016-01-14T19:15:50  <jonasschnelli> 0.12 release nodes needs some overhaul
 833 2016-01-14T19:15:55  <cfields> we can discuss in -core-dev after the meeting
 834 2016-01-14T19:16:04  <MarcoFalke> jonas, there are two pulls
 835 2016-01-14T19:16:14  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: nice work on the commit list...
 836 2016-01-14T19:16:15  <Luke-Jr> #7340 also exposed a possible bug that may need to be fixed, but not yet determined if it affects the bundled univalue
 837 2016-01-14T19:16:18  <wumpus> cfields: well it's good to tell here so that gitian builders that are reading know  what to do
 838 2016-01-14T19:16:18  <btcdrak> is #7149 really a bug fix? We tagged RC, doesnt seem right to merge that
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 840 2016-01-14T19:16:34  <wumpus> cfields: but indeed, can just fix up the descriptor when attaching the signature - building itself is  unaffected
 841 2016-01-14T19:16:36  <Luke-Jr> btcdrak: yes, it fixes bugs..
 842 2016-01-14T19:16:45  <cfields> ok...
 843 2016-01-14T19:17:06  <Luke-Jr> I mean, I could split the tests out if that's a concern, but IMO tests never hurt
 844 2016-01-14T19:17:06  <wumpus> btcdrak: I agree we shouldn't merge too much between RCs, only if it is a critical bug fix
 845 2016-01-14T19:17:32  *** rnvk has joined #bitcoin-dev
 846 2016-01-14T19:17:35  <wumpus> and I don't think #7142 is mature enough to merge
 847 2016-01-14T19:17:35  *** AtnevRed has quit IRC
 848 2016-01-14T19:17:55  <wumpus> so let's leave it for 0.12.1
 849 2016-01-14T19:18:03  <Luke-Jr> 7142? Travis stuff?
 850 2016-01-14T19:18:12  <cfields> gitian builders: 0.12rc1's osx sig attach descriptor fails due to a missing package (that's not actually needed). Rather than using the in-tree descriptor, use the one from #7342. This is fixed for rc2.
 851 2016-01-14T19:18:22  <wumpus> Luke-Jr: eh? I'm confused, sorry
 852 2016-01-14T19:18:45  <morcos> wumpus: you said 7142 instead of 7149.  but leave for discussion in 0.12.1 to be clear.
 853 2016-01-14T19:19:15  <MarcoFalke> 7142 can be closed
 854 2016-01-14T19:19:29  <MarcoFalke> The nightly builds already cover it
 855 2016-01-14T19:19:32  <wumpus> morcos: yes, #7149 I meant, thanks
 856 2016-01-14T19:19:38  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: awesome
 857 2016-01-14T19:19:46  <wumpus> #action close #7149
 858 2016-01-14T19:19:53  <jonasschnelli> We should add "fundrawtransaction" and "setban" to the release notes.
 859 2016-01-14T19:20:22  <wumpus> I agree those should be documented - though the release notes are really long already
 860 2016-01-14T19:20:23  <Luke-Jr> wumpus: close 7142, not 7149 >_<
 861 2016-01-14T19:20:23  <jtimon> wumpus: close 7142, 7149 or both?
 862 2016-01-14T19:20:40  <wumpus> #action close #7142 not #7149
 863 2016-01-14T19:21:06  <wumpus> at some point it makes more sense to document those commands somewhere else, e.g. in the bitcoin.org developer documentation
 864 2016-01-14T19:21:10  <wumpus> then link to itin the release notes
 865 2016-01-14T19:21:41  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. Agreed.
 866 2016-01-14T19:21:42  <Luke-Jr> ACK delaying 7149 until 0.12.1, since it mostly fixes things broken in all prior releases anyway and miners can/should just use LJR instead of Core
 867 2016-01-14T19:21:53  <Luke-Jr> should we document the regressions in release-notes though? I can write something up.
 868 2016-01-14T19:21:53  <jonasschnelli> :/
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 870 2016-01-14T19:22:19  <btcdrak> wumpus: The release notes should mention notable features regardless imo
 871 2016-01-14T19:22:37  <wumpus> btcdrak: they are mentioned in the list of pulls at least
 872 2016-01-14T19:23:05  <wumpus> btcdrak: shortly mentioning them with a lnk to more documentation also makes sense, but I think the release notes have too much details, they're not meant as a substitute for documentation
 873 2016-01-14T19:23:30  <Luke-Jr> #action #7149 delayed to 0.12.1 due to lack of reviews; document regressions it fixes for 0.12.0 in the meantime
 874 2016-01-14T19:24:11  <morcos> wumpus: i realized maybe the release notes don't mention the mining code changes
 875 2016-01-14T19:24:15  <wumpus> in any case, feel free to improve the release notes, just submit a pull, but make sure you do it on top of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7336
 876 2016-01-14T19:24:24  <morcos> i'm not sure how much detail you want to go into
 877 2016-01-14T19:24:48  <morcos> but it seems reasonable to me to mention the speed increase , lack of blowup on large mempools.
 878 2016-01-14T19:25:00  <morcos> but it also might be important to document the new security assumption
 879 2016-01-14T19:25:02  <btcdrak> morcos: it's a notable feature IMO
 880 2016-01-14T19:25:08  <MarcoFalke> wumpus, you could just merge 7336
 881 2016-01-14T19:25:10  <wumpus> just mention that it changed, what is the old behavior, what is the new behavior, but not too much technical details, it would be great to document those but not in the release notes :)
 882 2016-01-14T19:25:12  <morcos> that mempool consistency is now used to construct blocks
 883 2016-01-14T19:25:35  <morcos> so maybe that last part is too much detail?
 884 2016-01-14T19:25:37  *** JeromeLegoupil has joined #bitcoin-dev
 885 2016-01-14T19:25:45  <wumpus> no, that sounds fine
 886 2016-01-14T19:25:54  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: I'm going to
 887 2016-01-14T19:26:31  <MarcoFalke> #action merge #7336
 888 2016-01-14T19:27:22  <wumpus> ok, more topics?
 889 2016-01-14T19:27:34  <wumpus> #topic consensus code encapsulation
 890 2016-01-14T19:27:44  <wumpus> @jtimon
 891 2016-01-14T19:27:58  <MarcoFalke> any discussion needed in regard to the website?
 892 2016-01-14T19:28:13  <jtimon> ok, so right now I only 4 libconsensus related opened PRs #7091 #7287 #7311 and #7310
 893 2016-01-14T19:28:48  <jtimon> I really think that any "big picture branch" will be highly unreadable without merging something like #7310 first
 894 2016-01-14T19:29:01  <wumpus> do we have an idea for an API yet for the extended libconsensus?
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 896 2016-01-14T19:29:15  <btcdrak> jtimon: a big picture branch will let people see your overall vision.
 897 2016-01-14T19:29:19  <jtimon> you mean libconsensus + storage ?
 898 2016-01-14T19:29:34  <morcos> wumpus: i'm happy to help review an encapsulation type pull for correctness, but i'd prefer to see concept ACK from you/sipa first, b/c i don't trust my own judgement on what makes sense.
 899 2016-01-14T19:30:01  <jtimon> I'm redoing things in https://github.com/jtimon/bitcoin/commits/libconsensus-f2 that's the longest "big picture" branch I have
 900 2016-01-14T19:30:02  <wumpus> I'm not entirely sure what is the enxt step, but I think it's importnat to know what we want to offer in guiding in how to refactor things
 901 2016-01-14T19:30:14  <Diablo-D3> ssh client bug: http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20160114142733
 902 2016-01-14T19:30:26  <wumpus> Diablo-D3: offtopic?
 903 2016-01-14T19:30:36  <jtimon> well, I'll create another one libconsensus-f3 on top of that with a candidate complete C API
 904 2016-01-14T19:30:39  <jonasschnelli> jtimon: did you once thought about a bit-picture in a written form .MD, google doc?
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 906 2016-01-14T19:31:13  <jtimon> jonasschnelli: I still plan to do the "document with words and pictures" that I was asked to do
 907 2016-01-14T19:31:28  <jtimon> but I want to link to code too
 908 2016-01-14T19:31:37  <wumpus> yes, makes sense to have both
 909 2016-01-14T19:31:54  <jonasschnelli> Agree. Big pic in word and image form, if one needs more, he can check the code.
 910 2016-01-14T19:31:59  <btcdrak> The idea of a big picture branch is to let jtimon make the changes he would like ideally without having to think about doing it in stages. That will give everyone else an idea of the big picture implications
 911 2016-01-14T19:32:23  <jtimon> and some of the open PRs would really make the document more readable (ie the pictures are basically before-an-after UML diagrams)
 912 2016-01-14T19:32:47  <btcdrak> otherwise it seems like we get tons of small PRs and no-one can see the wider picture and thus it is more difficult for review
 913 2016-01-14T19:33:08  <jtimon> what about these stages (what I plan to put in the doc)?
 914 2016-01-14T19:33:25  *** bitcoin-dev068 has quit IRC
 915 2016-01-14T19:34:25  <jtimon> 1) have something to call libconsensus: expose verifyScript. Done
 916 2016-01-14T19:34:25  <jtimon> 2) put the rest of the consensus critical code, excluding storage in the same building package (see #7091 )
 917 2016-01-14T19:34:30  <droark> jtimon: If you need any assistance with the doc, ping me. I may need a little assistance but I like to help with documentation.
 918 2016-01-14T19:34:54  <jtimon> 3) discuss a complete C API for libconsensus
 919 2016-01-14T19:34:54  <jtimon> 4) separate it into a sub-repository
 920 2016-01-14T19:35:43  <jtimon> droark: thanks I'll note that, but usually I have the most problems getting review
 921 2016-01-14T19:35:51  <wumpus> sounds good to me, although I like starting with 3 as soon as possible, I reallythink a (preliminary) API would be good to guide this
 922 2016-01-14T19:36:06  *** rusty has joined #bitcoin-dev
 923 2016-01-14T19:36:27  <wumpus> in any case, it is mostly orthogonal to the moving and refactoring
 924 2016-01-14T19:36:49  <droark> jtimon: Gotcha. I'll look at some of the PRs a little later today.
 925 2016-01-14T19:36:50  <jtimon> wumpus: sure, that's why I'm not working on master, we can start discussing phase 3 as soon as we have a phase 2 "prototype" it doesn't need to be fully reviewed or "final"
 926 2016-01-14T19:36:59  <wumpus> but it gives something more concrete to talk about than code moves
 927 2016-01-14T19:37:31  <wumpus> jtimon: right
 928 2016-01-14T19:38:05  <jtimon> well, it's not completely orthogonal, you can't build the full C API in the libconsensus package before you have eliminated the unwanted dependencies, etc. But yeah, as for discussion they are mostly orthogonal
 929 2016-01-14T19:38:09  *** SeXploit has quit IRC
 930 2016-01-14T19:38:23  <wumpus> ok, suggestion for next topic?
 931 2016-01-14T19:38:40  <jtimon> phase 4 (basically moving files to the consensus directory) is also orthogonal, can be done in parallel and practically by anyone
 932 2016-01-14T19:38:54  <jtimon> action review #7091 #7287 #7311 and #7310 ?
 933 2016-01-14T19:38:54  <btcdrak> are we ready to talk about the locktime PRs again?
 934 2016-01-14T19:39:14  <wumpus> #topic locktime PRs
 935 2016-01-14T19:39:14  <btcdrak> suggested topic bip68
 936 2016-01-14T19:39:55  <wumpus> jtimon: yes I agree it's not completely orthogonal, but it's something that can be discussed seaprately, and we can involve people that are planning to use the interface
 937 2016-01-14T19:40:49  <wumpus> btcdrak: anything specific to say about locktime PRs?
 938 2016-01-14T19:40:56  <btcdrak> We need to make a choice between 6312 and 7184
 939 2016-01-14T19:41:06  <jtimon> wumpus agree, and they usually won't care about the refactorings or the rest of bitcoin core, they usually will ask "what interface? what files?"
 940 2016-01-14T19:41:19  <jtimon> wumpus: no action on #7091 #7287 #7311 and #7310 then?
 941 2016-01-14T19:41:40  <btcdrak> CNB optimisations were not compatible with 6312 which is how 7184 resulted.
 942 2016-01-14T19:41:48  <wumpus> jtimon: you requested people to review them, that's fiine
 943 2016-01-14T19:42:13  <jtimon> ok, sorry for insisting, next topic
 944 2016-01-14T19:42:16  <morcos> sipa was going to look at #7184 but he got busy on some side project he's working on.  in seriousness though, i think 7184 is a better design for BIP 68 than 6312
 945 2016-01-14T19:42:20  <btcdrak> I'm leaning towards closing 6312 for 7184
 946 2016-01-14T19:42:49  <morcos> i don't think we need code review of BIP 68 now because i think segwit and probably versionbits take precedence
 947 2016-01-14T19:42:53  <btcdrak> "side project" being segwit :-)
 948 2016-01-14T19:42:53  <wumpus> looks like there is some agreement to focuso n 7184 instead of 6312 then
 949 2016-01-14T19:43:02  <morcos> but it would be nice to concentrate on one approach, and update the BIP to match it
 950 2016-01-14T19:43:18  <jtimon> well bip68 is certainly more reviewed than versionbits I think
 951 2016-01-14T19:43:40  <morcos> jtimon: yes for sure.  but in terms of priorities to get released.
 952 2016-01-14T19:43:57  <btcdrak> morcos: bip68 spec is ewll reviewed, obviously we'd need to update the reference implementation in the BIP to 7184
 953 2016-01-14T19:44:11  <morcos> its possible we'll have BIP 68 and 112/113 ready to go by soft fork
 954 2016-01-14T19:44:26  <btcdrak> morcos: well until you have a versionbits proposal, we have time to look at 7184
 955 2016-01-14T19:44:27  <morcos> but we shouldn't be holding up segwit for them
 956 2016-01-14T19:44:52  <jtimon> my previous opposition against redoing many parts of 6312 in 7184 was that it was going to slow things down, so if focusing review on 7184 will make things faster, I'm fine with it
 957 2016-01-14T19:45:02  *** SeXploit has joined #bitcoin-dev
 958 2016-01-14T19:45:04  <btcdrak> morcos: BIP113 should be deployed with the next softfork regardless.
 959 2016-01-14T19:45:09  <wumpus> ok
 960 2016-01-14T19:45:19  <morcos> ok, so lets close 6312 and move to 7184
 961 2016-01-14T19:45:25  <wumpus> #action clsoe #6312 in favor of #7174
 962 2016-01-14T19:45:26  <btcdrak> ack
 963 2016-01-14T19:45:27  <morcos> if there is objection later , we can always reopen
 964 2016-01-14T19:45:31  <wumpus> right
 965 2016-01-14T19:45:37  <morcos> 7184 wumpus please
 966 2016-01-14T19:45:49  <morcos> and don't merge any consensus code changes today
 967 2016-01-14T19:45:51  <btcdrak> wumpus has shaky hands today
 968 2016-01-14T19:45:55  <jtimon> but nack on "delaying bip68 further because there's higher priorities"
 969 2016-01-14T19:46:29  <btcdrak> btw, rusty tested 7184 in combination with 6564 and tACKd both
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 971 2016-01-14T19:47:15  <btcdrak> aj also has some python demos that test HLTC scripts using CSV, we should pester him for those
 972 2016-01-14T19:47:51  <btcdrak> *HTLC,
 973 2016-01-14T19:47:55  <jtimon> I just slightly reviewed the diff with 6312 but didn't found anything functionally wrong
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 976 2016-01-14T19:49:59  <jtimon> so I don't see it as something far away, I think we could merge 7184 relatively soon (after all is based on 6312 which had plenty of testing and review)
 977 2016-01-14T19:50:18  *** supasonic has quit IRC
 978 2016-01-14T19:50:35  <btcdrak> jtimon: yes. actually the cumulative work in 7184 is impressive
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 982 2016-01-14T19:51:28  <morcos> great.  well when 7184 gets the acks it can be merged.  but we still need code to introduce the soft fork for it anyway
 983 2016-01-14T19:51:36  <morcos> i'll fix up the open nits on 7184 pronto
 984 2016-01-14T19:51:48  <btcdrak> morcos: the softforking code should be a separate PR.
 985 2016-01-14T19:51:55  <sdaftuar> and we should update the BIP's reference implementation
 986 2016-01-14T19:52:04  <btcdrak> ok I'll do that
 987 2016-01-14T19:52:09  <morcos> btcdrak: yes thats fine.   do you want to update BIP.  perfect.
 988 2016-01-14T19:52:22  <btcdrak> yup
 989 2016-01-14T19:52:26  <Diablo-D3> wumpus: /amsg
 990 2016-01-14T19:53:19  <wumpus> any last topic?
 991 2016-01-14T19:53:37  <btcdrak> are we haveing a 0.12 release party?
 992 2016-01-14T19:53:38  <jtimon> morcos: we will worry about the softfork later, the first step of merging it as relay policy is a huge step
 993 2016-01-14T19:53:51  <wumpus> otherwise I'm going to close the meeting, I'm kind of tired
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 995 2016-01-14T19:53:56  <btcdrak> ack
 996 2016-01-14T19:54:10  <btcdrak> wumpus: +!
 997 2016-01-14T19:54:16  <wumpus> #meetingstop
 998 2016-01-14T19:54:20  <btcdrak> haha
 999 2016-01-14T19:54:20  <wumpus> #stopmeeting
1000 2016-01-14T19:54:22  <MarcoFalke> #closemeeting
1001 2016-01-14T19:54:25  <btcdrak> nopw
1002 2016-01-14T19:54:26  <wumpus> #endmeeting
1003 2016-01-14T19:54:26  <lightningbot`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 14 19:54:26 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1004 2016-01-14T19:54:26  <lightningbot`> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-14-19.00.html
1005 2016-01-14T19:54:26  <lightningbot`> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-14-19.00.txt
1006 2016-01-14T19:54:26  <lightningbot`> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-dev/2016/bitcoin-dev.2016-01-14-19.00.log.html
1007 2016-01-14T19:54:31  <btcdrak> \o/
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1009 2016-01-14T19:54:53  <wumpus> btcdrak: release party is for the final release, we're not there yet :p
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1013 2016-01-14T19:58:12  <Luke-Jr> 1.0?
1014 2016-01-14T19:59:03  <jonasschnelli> heh
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1018 2016-01-14T20:08:34  <maaku> Luke-Jr: I intend to champion a patch to segwit that would include merged mining
1019 2016-01-14T20:08:40  <maaku> (segwit supports it now, but could be better)
1020 2016-01-14T20:10:06  <Luke-Jr> maaku: eh, I already intend to champion a MM thing.. :p
1021 2016-01-14T20:10:50  <maaku> Luke-Jr: what did you want to get in?
1022 2016-01-14T20:10:52  <sipa> maaku: the original version i wrote included MM support, but it would be a pain to deploy
1023 2016-01-14T20:11:53  <sipa> and figuring out the best way to do would need too much bikeshedding imho
1024 2016-01-14T20:12:15  <maaku> morcos: is 7184 back-ported? that's the sole reason 6312 was done the way it was
1025 2016-01-14T20:12:34  <sipa> plus it seems there are actual benefits to separating bitcoin-consensus-critical commitments from external commitments
1026 2016-01-14T20:12:56  <Luke-Jr> sipa: disagree on that
1027 2016-01-14T20:13:09  <sipa> i know you disagree :)
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1029 2016-01-14T20:13:54  <morcos> maaku: i haven't looked into backporting it.  but i dont' see off the top of my head why it would be at all difficult.
1030 2016-01-14T20:14:07  <morcos> what does it need to backport to?  just 0.11 ?
1031 2016-01-14T20:14:13  <morcos> well and 0.12 obviously
1032 2016-01-14T20:14:21  <sipa> anyway, if you are willing to propose and implement another way to do it, and show that common infrastructure canneasily support it, i'm all for it
1033 2016-01-14T20:14:41  <maaku> "<sipa> plus it seems there are actual benefits to separating bitcoin-consensus-critical commitments from external commitments" <--- such as?
1034 2016-01-14T20:14:47  *** mrkent has quit IRC
1035 2016-01-14T20:14:50  <maaku> morcos: every supported version of bitcoind
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1037 2016-01-14T20:15:14  <morcos> maaku: what are the supported versions of bitcoind?  just 0.11 ?
1038 2016-01-14T20:15:18  <morcos> well and 0.12 obviously
1039 2016-01-14T20:15:30  <sipa> maaku: forcing more bitcoin consensus related logic into mining stacks
1040 2016-01-14T20:15:55  <sipa> maaku: as it means they need to go build the witness tree, store the root, and store the branch to it in the right place
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1042 2016-01-14T20:15:56  <morcos> sipa: are you planning on backporting segwit to 0.11?
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1044 2016-01-14T20:16:23  <sipa> maaku: if you separate consensus commitments, those can just remain under control of bitcoind
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1046 2016-01-14T20:17:27  <sipa> there is also no efficiency benefit to combining the tree, as every consensus-enforcing full nkde needs all consensus commitments anyway; combining them into one tree would add unnecessary branches to data that will always be present anyway
1047 2016-01-14T20:17:44  <sipa> morcos: if requested
1048 2016-01-14T20:18:30  * Luke-Jr demands a backport to 0.3.19 for Deepbit
1049 2016-01-14T20:19:27  <sipa> deepbit runs 0.3.24 last i heard :p
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1052 2016-01-14T20:27:02  <Luke-Jr> sipa: oops
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1084 2016-01-14T21:16:13  <maaku> morcos: the release notes show that bip 66 was backported to 0.9
1085 2016-01-14T21:16:54  <maaku> i would have expected 0.8
1086 2016-01-14T21:16:55  <morcos> maaku: i think 0.11 and 0.12 should be sufficient.
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1088 2016-01-14T21:17:18  <maaku> morcos: we have a surprising fundamental disagreement there
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1091 2016-01-14T21:17:34  <maaku> it's been an ethos of bitcoin that consensus code changes are not tied to version
1092 2016-01-14T21:17:59  <maaku> historically soft forks have been back ported to every release that could still sync the chain
1093 2016-01-14T21:18:30  <morcos> maaku: but i dont think thats a feasible goal to maintain
1094 2016-01-14T21:18:32  <maaku> maybe this explains a lot about bip 68 timeline -- #6312 was maintained the way it was explicitly because I was anticipating back-porting to 0.8
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1096 2016-01-14T21:18:48  <maaku> morcos: its not a goal, it's a requirement when we don't know what mining code exists out there in the wild
1097 2016-01-14T21:18:57  <maaku> not everyone updates across major releases
1098 2016-01-14T21:19:11  <Lightsword> AFAIK all miners are on 0.11.2
1099 2016-01-14T21:19:18  <maaku> Lightsword: and you know this how?
1100 2016-01-14T21:19:44  <morcos> maaku: 6312 i think would have been harder to backport than 7184
1101 2016-01-14T21:19:52  <Lightsword> maaku, talked to most pool operators, I’d be really surprized if anyone was on something older than 0.11.2
1102 2016-01-14T21:19:57  <morcos> certainly the easiest thing would have been to never change CheckFinalTx
1103 2016-01-14T21:20:10  <morcos> but now thats changed so the backport must include that somehow
1104 2016-01-14T21:20:31  <morcos> anyway, no point arguing, first goal master, second goal 0.12, then 0.11, then we can talk about further back
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1106 2016-01-14T21:20:41  <morcos> i'd love it if you want to help
1107 2016-01-14T21:20:50  <maaku> Lightsword: we need stronger guarantees than that
1108 2016-01-14T21:20:51  <morcos> but arguing with those of us still trying to work isn't super productive
1109 2016-01-14T21:21:07  <phantomcircuit> maaku, 0.12.0 is so much faster the additional risk of running unreleased code isn't something they care about
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1111 2016-01-14T21:21:59  <maaku> morcos: "still trying to work"? morcos -- i gave up on BIP 68 because it became patently obvious that there was no way for it to get in until you had everyone one of your checkboxes ticked, so it's better for you to do that than to waste my time
1112 2016-01-14T21:22:21  <Lightsword> maaku, most patch sets are fairly minor, I’ve heard of some pools temporarially being a version behind but they would always upgrade to latest for soft fork activation
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1115 2016-01-14T21:22:51  <Lightsword> stratum servers generally just use GBT which hasn’t really changed much
1116 2016-01-14T21:22:55  <maaku> morcos: if you're no longer giving it priority then perhaps we can simply go with whichever impelementation has the most reviews, do a final round of acks and get it merged
1117 2016-01-14T21:23:06  <maaku> implementation details can be fixed in future releases that don't have to be backported
1118 2016-01-14T21:23:06  <morcos> maaku: that is really an unbelievable distortion of history, but not an argument the rest of the channel wants to hear.
1119 2016-01-14T21:23:27  <Lightsword> IMO not neccesary to backport to more than one version at least for pools
1120 2016-01-14T21:24:01  <Lightsword> other services may be running more extensive patch sets
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1123 2016-01-14T21:24:56  <Lightsword> pools on the other hand generally don’t like to mess with core code, f2pool I know does some patches to filter out spv clients and other clients that would never be miners
1124 2016-01-14T21:27:04  <maaku> Lightsword: you are completely missing the point. we support the entire ecosystem, not just miners (what are payment providers in Romania running hmm?), and even with miners we *should* be supporting small miners too, not just the largest pools
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1126 2016-01-14T21:27:07  <Lightsword> but they generally don’t mess with too much internal logic
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1134 2016-01-14T21:29:44  <Lightsword> maaku, yeah for other services it could make sense to backport although for really old versions it may not be worth the effort
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1136 2016-01-14T21:30:19  <Lightsword> 2 major versions behind for backporting seems reasonable for soft forks IMO
1137 2016-01-14T21:30:20  <maaku> Lightsword: anyone not running that patch set would be exploitable, potentially suffering monetary losses
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1139 2016-01-14T21:30:38  <maaku> that's why it makes sense to do soft-fork changes in such a way as to be most easily back portable
1140 2016-01-14T21:30:49  <maaku> which is exactly what has been done for pretty much all changes to date
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1144 2016-01-14T21:31:18  <Lightsword> maaku, I thought they were only backported two major versions usually, ie BIP65 to major version 0.9
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1223 2016-01-14T23:36:00  <op_null> Mike's article today was rather unfortunate.  TL;DR; People disagreed with me, so Bitcoin failed.      I think with Hearn gone, there will be less Pitchfork mobs on forums/reddit.  It's been unfortunate seeing so many ad hominem attacks.   Hope you guys can continue to keep up all your good work, and do your best to keep Bitcoin decentralized.
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1228 2016-01-14T23:38:41  <JackH> mike's artile is pure garbage
1229 2016-01-14T23:38:49  <JackH> attack on maxwell all the time, its all he can do
1230 2016-01-14T23:39:07  <JackH> funny how the article forgot to mention 95% of all core dev's agree to the roadmap
1231 2016-01-14T23:39:36  <Diablo-D3> wait, hearn left?
1232 2016-01-14T23:39:48  <JackH> we are not that lucky
1233 2016-01-14T23:39:52  <JackH> he just wrote he left
1234 2016-01-14T23:39:54  *** jaclupi has quit IRC
1235 2016-01-14T23:39:56  <Diablo-D3> ahh
1236 2016-01-14T23:39:59  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
1237 2016-01-14T23:40:04  <Diablo-D3> but yeah, what the fuck are we all arguin about now?
1238 2016-01-14T23:40:09  <Diablo-D3> is it still the block size shit?
1239 2016-01-14T23:40:15  <JackH> give it a week for the next article on medium.com bashing gmaxwell again
1240 2016-01-14T23:40:20  <JackH> yeah I think so
1241 2016-01-14T23:40:22  <Luke-Jr> can we take this to #bitcoin or something?
1242 2016-01-14T23:40:26  <Diablo-D3> I dont even know why people bash gmaxwell
1243 2016-01-14T23:40:26  <Luke-Jr> #bitcoinxt ideally
1244 2016-01-14T23:40:28  <Diablo-D3> hes a great guy
1245 2016-01-14T23:40:34  <JackH> lol luke
1246 2016-01-14T23:40:36  <JackH> #bitcoin it is
1247 2016-01-14T23:40:37  <justanotheruser> Diablo-D3: tinfoil hats
1248 2016-01-14T23:40:51  <Diablo-D3> and he puts up with me making fun of his OTHER job at xiph ;)
1249 2016-01-14T23:41:13  <op_null> https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7#.69kuq1mbu
1250 2016-01-14T23:43:02  <phantomcircuit> Diablo-D3, mike now works for R3 and is busy throwing FUD
1251 2016-01-14T23:43:29  <Diablo-D3> oh, lame
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