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20 2016-01-18T01:01:06 <Chris_Stewart_5> AaronvanW: I like the idea on the weekly AMA for the devs that are actively working on the bitcoin repo
21 2016-01-18T01:01:46 <midnightmagic> :-o \o roconnor nice to see you
22 2016-01-18T01:01:55 <roconnor> hi
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25 2016-01-18T01:09:05 <Chris_Stewart_5> mabye it would save time explaining things in other threads for devs as well :/
26 2016-01-18T01:10:08 <midnightmagic> roconnor: I really like that you show up at the cusp of every major technology change. Very nice to see you dude.
27 2016-01-18T01:10:37 <roconnor> I was reading about segwit.
28 2016-01-18T01:10:52 <roconnor> I didn't realize such a magical soft-fork was eve possible.
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86 2016-01-18T03:23:42 <rusty> kanzure: hmm, that post in the queue proposing a reduced tx format wedged in the coinbase. Do you have a convenient ref to a previous proposal, otherwise I'm tempted to let it through so I can respond.
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145 2016-01-18T06:00:06 <X1smpl1c1ty> \
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149 2016-01-18T06:02:01 <kanzure> rusty: nope, i don't have a reference on that, i'm approving the email
150 2016-01-18T06:02:06 <kanzure> rusty: thanks for checking with me
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152 2016-01-18T06:02:27 <kanzure> er, to be clear, not only do i not have a convenient reference, i have no reference. is there one that you are thinking of?
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154 2016-01-18T06:02:51 <kanzure> rusty: changed my mind, i'll let you approve it
155 2016-01-18T06:03:39 <rusty> kanzure: am sure there was a previous discussion on how little this buys, but I'm lazy...
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314 2016-01-18T09:30:37 <cluelessperson> How can I help bitcoin?
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318 2016-01-18T09:34:39 <Lauda> cluelessperson depends on your expertise.
319 2016-01-18T09:35:28 <Guest73650> whats the purpose for the C prefix in CCoinsView?
320 2016-01-18T09:35:44 <Guest73650> doesn't seem to stand for concrete since CCoinsView is an abstract class
321 2016-01-18T09:35:45 <hasha> Lauda: they asked the same question in the main chan
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325 2016-01-18T09:40:32 <cluelessperson> Lauda, I'd be best for groundwork :/
326 2016-01-18T09:40:51 <Lauda> cluelessperson please discuss in #bitcoin, this is off-topic here.
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338 2016-01-18T10:03:09 <wumpus> Guest73650, C stands for just "class", it's satoshi's coding convention, no longer used in new code
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341 2016-01-18T10:07:21 <Guest73650> was there a purpose for this convention?
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343 2016-01-18T10:07:56 <wumpus> ask satoshi...
344 2016-01-18T10:08:05 <Guest73650> ah. of course.
345 2016-01-18T10:08:38 <wumpus> to me it looks like it was inherited from 90's windows MFC programming
346 2016-01-18T10:08:56 <Guest73650> any value in refactoring the C prefix out of all of the classes?
347 2016-01-18T10:09:20 <Guest73650> or is it preferred to be left in
348 2016-01-18T10:13:27 <wumpus> no, don't do that
349 2016-01-18T10:13:43 <wumpus> it's a useless change, just breaks patches
350 2016-01-18T10:14:30 <wumpus> a good guideline for contributionsi s to try to keep code changes focused and solving a problem that faces users
351 2016-01-18T10:14:38 <wumpus> not just 'I like this convention better'
352 2016-01-18T10:17:13 <Guest73650> makes sense. i was stepping through code, and some of it wasn't clear.
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355 2016-01-18T10:19:51 <frankenmint> how is bitcoin simulated? I mean testnet still lmits by consensus rules so how did gavin simulate 8mb blocks?
356 2016-01-18T10:20:57 <frankenmint> is the simulation to 'backtest' from 08 to 15 using diff blocksize as a frame? is it just dummy data and random blocks? and what metrics are measured (I presume latency with regards to propagation)
357 2016-01-18T10:20:58 <kinlo> nobody prevents you from creating a fork/own seperated testnet
358 2016-01-18T10:22:12 <frankenmint> also, would it even hold relevancy in the real world (how do i account for geograpical latency differences with simulation tests)?
359 2016-01-18T10:23:24 <wumpus> simulating bitcoin realistically is a non-trivial problem, but there has been some previous research you could look at
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362 2016-01-18T10:24:21 <wumpus> (not sure in how far they realize 'relevancy in the real world', a simulation always makes some simplifications, but you can try to account for as much as possible, or even try to replay 'real data')
363 2016-01-18T10:25:49 <wumpus> this comes to mind: https://shadow.github.io/
364 2016-01-18T10:28:04 <gdm85> I guess one could also use regtest for that purpose, no?
365 2016-01-18T10:28:05 <frankenmint> I've seen that but couldn't make out how to set it up - I understand that its made for an old version of BTC I think .09??? I didn't understand how to go about updating the framework to point to a newer version
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367 2016-01-18T10:30:46 <frankenmint> I get that it creates a thin instance and allows you to specify the number of instantiations but I couldn't quite grasp if Im to write the interaction points as a type of test (like the regtester) and if that's even applicable
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389 2016-01-18T11:25:27 <Lauda> It�s possible to construct a transaction that takes up almost 1MB of space and which takes 30 seconds or more to validate on a modern computer (blocks containing such transactions have been mined). In 2MB blocks, a 2MB transaction can be constructed that may take over 10 minutes to validate which opens up dangerous denial-of-service attack vectors. Other lines of code would need to be changed to prevent these problems.
390 2016-01-18T11:26:21 *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-dev
391 2016-01-18T11:26:48 <Lauda> What kind of transaction would this be?
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393 2016-01-18T11:27:38 <Lauda> I only know something similar that Mark Friedenbach presented; 3.2MB - 10 minutes.
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398 2016-01-18T11:34:12 <Rebroad> Lauda, the only sensible way forward is to not set in stone the blocksize now, but to allow it to change based upon future findings. The only way to do this would be to let the miners votes with each block whether to increase it or decrease it
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446 2016-01-18T13:10:48 <MarcoPon> Hi! A quick question: does anyone here know if there's some alt-coin, blockchain based, that use a base58 encoding but with a different order/values from Bitcoin?
447 2016-01-18T13:12:00 <aj> MarcoPon: base58 is purely a wallet thing, bitcoin's testnet varies the base58 encoding compared to the main bitcoin net
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449 2016-01-18T13:13:07 <MarcoPon> aj: I was not aware of that. Will have to look into it. Thx!
450 2016-01-18T13:14:44 <MarcoPon> aj: are you sure that the "base58 encoding" is different? from what I see the version bytes changes, but that's a different thing
451 2016-01-18T13:14:48 <MarcoPon> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Base58Check_encoding
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453 2016-01-18T13:16:40 <MarcoPon> for example ripple instead use a different order of the symbols (but that's not blockchain based so I'm not interested)
454 2016-01-18T13:18:28 <aj> MarcoPon: yeah, it's just the version that changes it, but you could trivially change any wallet to use your own format if you wanted. no one else would be able to work it out without your version of the wallet though :)
455 2016-01-18T13:19:16 <MarcoPon> of course.
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457 2016-01-18T13:24:07 <MarcoPon> aj: have to go now. thanks. Bye!
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472 2016-01-18T13:40:29 <Lauda> ReBroad that makes sense but does not answer my question
473 2016-01-18T13:40:38 <Lauda> What kind of 2 MB transaction takes more than 10 minutes to validate?
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477 2016-01-18T13:44:27 <aj> Lauda: a large transaction with a lot of SIGHASH_ALL signatures, basically
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480 2016-01-18T13:45:14 <Lauda> Thank you for the answer.
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533 2016-01-18T15:09:45 <Lauda> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011869.html
534 2016-01-18T15:10:14 <Lauda> does SegWit requal to a 2MB block size or less? I'm unsure because of different numbers found
535 2016-01-18T15:11:27 <Chris_Stewart_5> Lauda: It depends. It doesn't not equate to EXACTLY 2 MB.
536 2016-01-18T15:11:44 <Lauda> Close to, or 1.6 as said in this email?
537 2016-01-18T15:12:10 <jl2012> Lauda: depends on how many people use it
538 2016-01-18T15:12:25 <Lauda> Let's say that the whole network is using it?
539 2016-01-18T15:12:27 <jl2012> if everyone use it, it is around 2.5MB
540 2016-01-18T15:12:31 <Chris_Stewart_5> For instance, on pay-to-pubkey-hash transactions result in a smaller increase in block size. Pay-to-script-hash (P2SH) txs result in a larger increase in block size.
541 2016-01-18T15:14:38 <Lauda> Thank you.
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553 2016-01-18T15:34:25 <aj> Lauda: http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012248.html is an update; i redid the math
554 2016-01-18T15:34:49 <Lauda> Thank aj.
555 2016-01-18T15:34:52 <Lauda> thanks*
556 2016-01-18T15:35:23 <aj> jl2012: (i don't think you can realistically get to 2.5MB though; you'd have to do away with a lot of p2pkh users...?)
557 2016-01-18T15:35:56 <jl2012> I said " if everyone use it"
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559 2016-01-18T15:37:05 <aj> jl2012: yeah, but even if everyone used it, p2pkh will only get 1.7MB worth, and 2/2 multisig will only get 2MB worth, so you'll need everyone using it *and* a majority of payments being much more complicated than either of those
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561 2016-01-18T15:38:14 <jl2012> historically, 60% of data could be moved to witness
562 2016-01-18T15:38:29 <jl2012> this is from sipa's presentation in Hong Kong
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564 2016-01-18T15:39:01 <aj> jl2012: yeah, which gives 1.8MB equivalence
565 2016-01-18T15:39:04 <jl2012> so the max possible block size = 1/(1-0.6) = 2.5
566 2016-01-18T15:39:14 <jl2012> not 1.8
567 2016-01-18T15:39:18 <aj> jl2012: 1/(0.4 + 0.6/4)
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569 2016-01-18T15:39:24 <jl2012> oh, sorry
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571 2016-01-18T15:39:53 <jl2012> you are right
572 2016-01-18T15:40:00 <aj> jl2012: yeah, it'd be so much more scalable if the witness data were discounted to 0 :)
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577 2016-01-18T15:45:28 <Chris_Stewart_5> aj: jl2012 Do either of you two have stats on the usage of p2pkh vs p2sh currently?
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579 2016-01-18T15:49:03 <aj> Chris_Stewart_5: no, i haven't tried figuring that out
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581 2016-01-18T15:50:15 <jl2012> may be p2sh.info ?
582 2016-01-18T15:50:17 <Lauda> aj wouldn't it be possible to prevent that transaction
583 2016-01-18T15:50:23 <Lauda> that would validate 10minutes or longer
584 2016-01-18T15:50:27 <Lauda> by introducing a limit per transaction
585 2016-01-18T15:50:29 <Lauda> of some sort
586 2016-01-18T15:50:36 <Lauda> as a temporary workaround
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588 2016-01-18T15:53:03 <aj> Lauda: bitcoin xt introduced a limit per transaction like that; segwit solves the problem more directly with https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0143.mediawiki
589 2016-01-18T15:54:36 <Lauda> Is it fully implemented already on testnet or?
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593 2016-01-18T15:56:21 <aj> Lauda: there's also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7081 which is related
594 2016-01-18T15:56:43 <aj> Lauda: hmm, i haven't looked if it's implemented or not actually
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596 2016-01-18T15:57:28 <Lauda> @luke-jr Not sure what you want to do here instead of rebasing, but this somehow needs to be made suitable for merge if you still want it included in 0.12
597 2016-01-18T15:57:33 <Lauda> that's what it says
598 2016-01-18T15:57:34 <Lauda> hm
599 2016-01-18T15:59:16 <wumpus> that's no longer relevant, it's been merged
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601 2016-01-18T16:03:03 <aj> Lauda: yes, bip 143 looks implemented to me; https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/cebda8e169bb8dc73d2df39bbdebd610bd482a7c
602 2016-01-18T16:03:54 <jl2012> yes, it's implemented
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606 2016-01-18T16:07:08 <Lauda> Isn't 2 MB block size then safe?
607 2016-01-18T16:07:21 <Lauda> If someone is unable to construct a transaction that would take too long to validate?
608 2016-01-18T16:07:38 <wumpus> this is just node policy; miners still can
609 2016-01-18T16:08:02 <Lauda> How can that be solved?
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613 2016-01-18T16:12:26 <Chris_Stewart_5> Lauda: If I am not mistake i think the root cause is the ECDSA algorithm used
614 2016-01-18T16:15:12 <Chris_Stewart_5> I'm not sure if the 'monster transaction' is validated using our old ECDSA algo or the new libsecp256k1 that sipa and gmaxwell wrote though :/
615 2016-01-18T16:15:54 <Chris_Stewart_5> because I think libsecp256k1 is 3 or 4 times faster
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617 2016-01-18T16:16:45 <Lauda> I think libsecp256k1 doesn't validate what you think it does.
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619 2016-01-18T16:19:30 <Amnez777> is there a way to check if some random public address with btc on it uses multisig or not?
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621 2016-01-18T16:19:40 <Lauda> [�]gavinandresen 16 points 18 days ago
622 2016-01-18T16:19:41 <Lauda> Most of the time is hashing to create 'signature hashes', not ECDSA verification. So libsecp256k1 doesn't help.
623 2016-01-18T16:20:44 <aj> Lauda: yes, that's what bip142 above fixes
624 2016-01-18T16:20:52 <aj> err 143?
625 2016-01-18T16:21:04 <Lauda> Yeah 143. Well technically doesn't fix, but scales it down.
626 2016-01-18T16:21:19 <Lauda> but wumpus just said that miners can still create a transaction that would take too long to validate
627 2016-01-18T16:21:23 <Chris_Stewart_5> Thanks for that Lauda
628 2016-01-18T16:21:25 <Lauda> that doesn't make sense if BIP143 is functioning properly
629 2016-01-18T16:21:27 <Lauda> to me
630 2016-01-18T16:21:33 <aj> Lauda: no, it does fix it
631 2016-01-18T16:21:43 <Lauda> Then 2 MB is safe?
632 2016-01-18T16:21:46 <aj> Lauda: bip143 is proposed and implemented, but not merged or deployed
633 2016-01-18T16:21:46 <Lauda> because of BIP143?
634 2016-01-18T16:21:49 <Lauda> oh
635 2016-01-18T16:22:07 <Lauda> Why not?
636 2016-01-18T16:22:26 <aj> Lauda: it's still undergoing testing and review
637 2016-01-18T16:22:44 <Lauda> So it's going to arrive after 0.12?
638 2016-01-18T16:23:22 <aj> Lauda: yes. it's part of the segwit patchset, so will be part of that soft-fork activation (or however else segwit might get deployed, i guess)
639 2016-01-18T16:25:49 <Lauda> Oh I did not know that.
640 2016-01-18T16:26:10 <aj> Lauda: it's mentioned towards the bottom of that bip iirc
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643 2016-01-18T16:29:07 <Lauda> I don't think that a lot of people are aware of BIP143.
644 2016-01-18T16:31:57 <aj> Lauda: not really, it's not good gossip material. :) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3zl96x/johnson_lau_proposes_new_bip_for_solving_on2/ was the reddit post
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646 2016-01-18T16:34:01 <Lauda> I must have missed it.
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661 2016-01-18T16:53:52 <Chris_Stewart_5> where is the 'scriptCode' variable defined at in interpreter.cpp
662 2016-01-18T16:53:55 <Chris_Stewart_5> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/interpreter.cpp#L829
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673 2016-01-18T17:03:15 <Giszmo> For testing, is there any RBF focet on testnet?
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675 2016-01-18T17:03:51 <Giszmo> oops. "faucet" i mean
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678 2016-01-18T17:09:59 <Lauda> aj
679 2016-01-18T17:10:14 <Lauda> someone claimed XT had a per block limit, not a per transaction limit for those sig ops?
680 2016-01-18T17:12:05 <instagibbs> Lauda, there is a per block limit for both
681 2016-01-18T17:12:22 <instagibbs> differently counted and limited
682 2016-01-18T17:12:31 <Lauda> so doesn't that prevent the creation of blocks that would take too long to validate?
683 2016-01-18T17:12:46 <instagibbs> mitigates, yes
684 2016-01-18T17:13:34 <instagibbs> havent made "bad" blocks for XT myself so unsure how well it works
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857 2016-01-18T21:33:10 <bsm1175321> Doesn't the merging of libsecp256k1 mean that 0.12 will verify blocks about twice as fast (or faster), so that if bandwidth were not a concern, we could bump the block size by roughly a factor of two at the same orphan rate?
858 2016-01-18T21:33:34 <bsm1175321> So with 0.12 we should expect to see orphan rates and empty blocks go down, because of faster verification, no?
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861 2016-01-18T21:36:12 <phantomcircuit> bsm1175321, we've been continuously overshooting the increased capacity of the hardware since 2009
862 2016-01-18T21:36:28 <phantomcircuit> libsecp256k1 is another in a long line of software fixes that bring us back in line with that
863 2016-01-18T21:36:41 <phantomcircuit> so
864 2016-01-18T21:36:42 <phantomcircuit> no
865 2016-01-18T21:38:51 <Chris_Stewart_5> bsm1175321: Also according to gavin most of the time is spent hashing on verification, not ECDSA operations
866 2016-01-18T21:39:28 <Chris_Stewart_5> [�]gavinandresen 16 points 18 days ago
867 2016-01-18T21:39:30 <sdaftuar> bsm1175321: we already cache signature verifications when transactions enter the mempool
868 2016-01-18T21:39:45 <Chris_Stewart_5> Most of the time is hashing to create 'signature hashes', not ECDSA verification. So libsecp256k1 doesn't help.
869 2016-01-18T21:39:46 <sdaftuar> the caching system was improved for 0.12 as well
870 2016-01-18T21:39:52 <belcher> phantomcircuit how does hardware getting better make the problem worse? or have i misunderstood
871 2016-01-18T21:40:01 <bsm1175321> Gotcha, thanks
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873 2016-01-18T21:40:39 <phantomcircuit> belcher, the cost of completing initial block verification has been growing faster then hardware has been getting faster
874 2016-01-18T21:40:48 <belcher> ah right yes
875 2016-01-18T21:40:48 <phantomcircuit> belcher, mostly we've been making up for this in software
876 2016-01-18T21:41:20 <belcher> though i think bsm1175321 was talking about mining rather than initial blockchain sync
877 2016-01-18T21:41:36 <Luke-Jr> bsm1175321: there is presently a plan to bump the block size by about 2x in April
878 2016-01-18T21:42:02 <bsm1175321> I'm not going to hold my breath on that...
879 2016-01-18T21:42:12 <Luke-Jr> bsm1175321: eh? why not?
880 2016-01-18T21:42:39 <bsm1175321> Just commit it to core already and stop making forks...
881 2016-01-18T21:42:41 <Luke-Jr> almost the entire Core team signed off on it, and it's a softfork so easy to deploy
882 2016-01-18T21:42:57 <bsm1175321> You mean an evil fork?
883 2016-01-18T21:42:59 <Luke-Jr> no
884 2016-01-18T21:43:02 <Luke-Jr> regular softfork
885 2016-01-18T21:43:03 <phantomcircuit> belcher, time to synchronize at the tip is FAR less important than time to complete initial block verification
886 2016-01-18T21:43:18 <phantomcircuit> if IBV takes too long nobody new can join the network...
887 2016-01-18T21:43:25 <bsm1175321> Luke-Jr: are you talking about segwit?
888 2016-01-18T21:44:02 <belcher> phantomcircuit yep ok, but the tip sync taking longer contributes to miner centralization because they get more orphans, either that or they use spv
889 2016-01-18T21:44:37 <Luke-Jr> bsm1175321: of course
890 2016-01-18T21:44:44 <Chris_Stewart_5> bsm1175321: For more information on CPU usage in the network you can look at the 'CPU' section on this web page
891 2016-01-18T21:44:45 <Chris_Stewart_5> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability
892 2016-01-18T21:49:15 * zookolaptop looks at that.
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894 2016-01-18T21:50:37 <zookolaptop> Chris_Stewart_5: that web page contradicts what you said -- it says that the hashing time is negligible.
895 2016-01-18T21:50:43 <zookolaptop> You said that it was > the ECDSA time.
896 2016-01-18T21:50:45 <phantomcircuit> belcher, the effect is basically not measurable with 0.12.0 and a proper configuration
897 2016-01-18T21:50:53 <instagibbs> zookolaptop, worst-case hashing can dominate
898 2016-01-18T21:50:54 <belcher> okay
899 2016-01-18T21:50:57 <instagibbs> due to signing alg
900 2016-01-18T21:51:12 <zookolaptop> instagibbs: can you point me to some docs or measurements I can use to understand this?
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903 2016-01-18T21:51:15 <instagibbs> this will be largely fixed with SegWit rollout
904 2016-01-18T21:51:32 <Chris_Stewart_5> see this thread wrt malicious txs
905 2016-01-18T21:51:34 <Chris_Stewart_5> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3yulwv/any_examples_of_the_10_minute_script_thats_a/
906 2016-01-18T21:51:36 <zookolaptop> instagibbs: I'm not sure if you mean SHA256 hashing or the process to sign a transaction, with that old O(N^2) problem in it...
907 2016-01-18T21:51:37 <instagibbs> ^^
908 2016-01-18T21:51:44 <instagibbs> sha hashing the txn
909 2016-01-18T21:51:57 <Luke-Jr> why is the java comparison tool so slow? :x
910 2016-01-18T21:52:20 <instagibbs> signing is linear in txn size, hashing is quadratic in txn size
911 2016-01-18T21:52:36 <instagibbs> hashing for the signing*
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913 2016-01-18T21:53:00 <zookolaptop> Yeah, so that O(N²) problem wouldn't be changed much by using a faster or slower implementation of SHA256.
914 2016-01-18T21:53:17 <instagibbs> correct, just how it's hashed
915 2016-01-18T21:53:31 <zookolaptop> Ok.
916 2016-01-18T21:53:36 <Chris_Stewart_5> new hasing algorithm would have to be implemented to solve that problem? instagibbs?
917 2016-01-18T21:53:52 <instagibbs> yes
918 2016-01-18T21:54:12 <instagibbs> already developed
919 2016-01-18T21:54:41 <instagibbs> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0143.mediawiki
920 2016-01-18T21:57:12 <Chris_Stewart_5> wow super interesting. Thanks.
921 2016-01-18T21:59:33 <instagibbs> also notice the other bonus we get
922 2016-01-18T22:00:18 <Chris_Stewart_5> whats that?
923 2016-01-18T22:00:55 <instagibbs> 6. value of the output spent by this input
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925 2016-01-18T22:01:13 <Chris_Stewart_5> ahh ok yes, that can be used by cold storage wallet software right?
926 2016-01-18T22:01:23 <instagibbs> yep
927 2016-01-18T22:03:00 <Chris_Stewart_5> It really is amazing how all these pieces fall together under the segwit umbrella
928 2016-01-18T22:03:17 <Chris_Stewart_5> wish the wider community would appreciate that :/
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933 2016-01-18T22:06:45 <Angelo544> bit
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937 2016-01-18T22:09:45 <Luke-Jr> BlueMatt: seriously, is there any way to make the comparison tool fast?
938 2016-01-18T22:13:18 <jtoomim> bsm1175321: orphan rates (or 1-tx blocks) are driven by three factors: 1. block prop time, 2. verification time, and 3. CreateNewBlock() time
939 2016-01-18T22:13:34 <jtoomim> 2 and 3 are made much faster in 0.12, but 1 is not helped
940 2016-01-18T22:14:18 <jtoomim> at least not much. i suppose the verify-before-relay in conditions where the relay network is missing may be relevant.
941 2016-01-18T22:17:25 <Luke-Jr> 2 helps 1 somewhat
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945 2016-01-18T22:17:53 <jtoomim> yes
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956 2016-01-18T22:34:44 <Lightsword> jtoomim, technically you missed mining stack latency stratum cgminer hardware etc but thatâs less important
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986 2016-01-18T23:29:00 <Luke-Jr> >1 hour for comparison tests :|
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