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39 2016-01-19T01:03:57 <brand0> does anyone know if univalue has any documentation (besides the source code)?
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172 2016-01-19T04:09:40 <kanzure> Luke-Jr: probably better to move away from using the word "acceptance" for bip1/bip2 stuff
173 2016-01-19T04:10:12 <Luke-Jr> I wish someone made a BIP outlining acceptance of different types of BIPs.. but the only guy trying (him) seems to be failing hard
174 2016-01-19T04:10:17 <Luke-Jr> looks like we'll end up with a forever-draft or rejected BIP 2 :/
175 2016-01-19T04:10:31 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: I don't understand that point
176 2016-01-19T04:10:59 <kanzure> Luke-Jr: "acceptance" what is this even supposed to mean. i suspect this is a strong source of persistent ambiguity.
177 2016-01-19T04:11:16 <kanzure> bip process cannot define/mandate "acceptance"
178 2016-01-19T04:12:13 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: right now, BIPs change Draft->Accepted when the author decides he's done revising it, and Accepted->Final when the community adopts it
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180 2016-01-19T04:12:20 <Luke-Jr> the last step is what is poorly defined
181 2016-01-19T04:12:37 <Luke-Jr> especially for thigns like BIP 123 etc
182 2016-01-19T04:12:45 <kanzure> "accepted [for bip number assignment]" yea that's not what most people think acceptance means :-)
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186 2016-01-19T04:13:42 <Luke-Jr> kanzure: BIP assignment is before Draft :p
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191 2016-01-19T04:16:07 <oneeman> "finalized" is more intuitive than "accepted"
192 2016-01-19T04:16:19 <oneeman> lol, nvm
193 2016-01-19T04:16:22 <oneeman> sorry
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203 2016-01-19T04:42:40 <adnn> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41lpir/segwit_economics/ -- gavin's new conpiracy theory on why segwit is soft fork
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223 2016-01-19T05:29:10 <moa> adnn: odd that he's delved into a detailed economics analysis of SW that increases data handled by 175-200% and never bothered to do the same when proposed to increase data capacities by 2000%
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225 2016-01-19T05:31:09 <aj> moa: peterr did detailed economics analysis of massive bumps in the blocksize though
226 2016-01-19T05:31:32 <aj> moa: level of insight is certainly arguable, but it was there
227 2016-01-19T05:32:02 <moa> sorry, but that was a bunch of hokum, imho.
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229 2016-01-19T05:36:39 <aj> moa: sure, point is just that analysis was done. (i wouldn't say that segwit fee event etc analysis was any better than peterr's paper, for instance)
230 2016-01-19T05:38:59 <moa> ha, right.
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525 2016-01-19T13:55:53 <aschildbach> Hi there, I've got a question about segwit. Looking at BIP144, I wonder if the "witness structure" (as part of the tx message serialization) has already been defined.
526 2016-01-19T13:56:49 <aschildbach> I wonder specifically if the new tx messages will contain input values, rather than just a reference to the output.
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530 2016-01-19T14:00:51 <Ylbam> aschildbach: have you tried #segwit-dev ?
531 2016-01-19T14:01:21 <aschildbach> uh there is a new channel for that?
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535 2016-01-19T14:01:30 <Ylbam> yep
536 2016-01-19T14:01:43 <aschildbach> thanks
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538 2016-01-19T14:03:42 <Ylbam> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-January/012253.html
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560 2016-01-19T14:42:42 <jonasschnelli> How long would a possible hardfork (assume march 2016) delay a possible segwit softfork? Until supermajority of the hardfork?
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562 2016-01-19T14:47:08 <bsm1175321> adnn: I really like that notion that in the new protocol (segwit) transactions are cheaper. It gives an economic incentive to upgrade.
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603 2016-01-19T15:41:15 <Yoghur114> hey guys, one of my nodes has stalled at #393974 - and I can't figure out why. It's dishing out a lot of invalid header received errors, and appears to be refusing to connect to peers - I got it to connect to another node which I know is synced to the tip, though, but it isn't syncing w"
604 2016-01-19T15:41:28 <Yoghur114> ... also getting the "WARNING: check your network connection, 0 blocks received in the last 4 hours (24 expected)" thing
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607 2016-01-19T15:43:21 <Yoghur114> would someone be willing/able to help out privately with a bunch of logs?
608 2016-01-19T15:46:27 <Yoghur114> hmm ... peers with "synced_headers" : -1, (same for synced_blocks), what does that mean?
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610 2016-01-19T15:51:31 <bsm117532> Yoghur114: Have you done a reindex?
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618 2016-01-19T15:59:21 <Yoghur114> no - I got it to sync now, after doing a -reconsiderblock for 393973 (..) and restarting (previous restarts did nothing) -- pretty weird still, don't know why it stalled
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622 2016-01-19T16:11:17 <instagibbs> what OS you running? (just curious)
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625 2016-01-19T16:13:23 <Yoghur114> Ubuntu 14.04.3 LTS
626 2016-01-19T16:14:43 <Yoghur114> the logs don't go back to the moment it first stalled, but it looks like it started banning peers for submitting blocks it perceived as invalid =/
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630 2016-01-19T16:16:26 <Yoghur114> ie.
631 2016-01-19T16:16:27 <Yoghur114> 2016-01-19 12:15:07 ERROR: AcceptBlockHeader: prev block invalid
632 2016-01-19T16:16:29 <Yoghur114> 2016-01-19 12:15:07 Misbehaving: 120.26.124.58:8333 (0 -> 100) BAN THRESHOLD EXCEEDED
633 2016-01-19T16:16:30 <Yoghur114> 2016-01-19 12:15:07 ERROR: invalid header received
634 2016-01-19T16:16:58 <gijensen> That's something new to me o.o
635 2016-01-19T16:17:28 <Yoghur114> yeah..
636 2016-01-19T16:17:37 <pigeons> what bitcoin version
637 2016-01-19T16:18:29 <pigeons> oh its working now, ok good
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639 2016-01-19T16:19:00 <Yoghur114> 11.2, with the addrindex patch - https://github.com/btcdrak/bitcoin/tree/addrindex-0.11
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672 2016-01-19T16:52:44 <bsm117532> Yoghur114: I'd suspect your hardware. Run a memcheck and some CPU tests. A single bit flip in a sha256 calculation or ECDSA sig verification can cause this.
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842 2016-01-19T20:29:14 <BW^-> libsecp256k1 build fails with "make: don't know how to make gen_context.o (prerequisite of: gen_context)", any idea?
843 2016-01-19T20:30:23 <paveljanik> BW^-, what compiler?
844 2016-01-19T20:30:25 <sipa> from within bitcoin, or outside?
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846 2016-01-19T20:30:37 <paveljanik> -I.? ;-)
847 2016-01-19T20:31:16 <BW^-> paveljanik: "g++ (GCC) 4.2.1 20070719" and "eg++ (GCC) 4.8.4"
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849 2016-01-19T20:31:44 <BW^-> sipa: outside. it's the https://github.com/libbitcoin/secp256k1/tree/version4 distro
850 2016-01-19T20:31:56 <paveljanik> can you paste the command line used to compile it?
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852 2016-01-19T20:32:06 <sipa> BW^-: ask the libbitcoin people then
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854 2016-01-19T20:32:21 <BW^-> mhm
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856 2016-01-19T20:33:00 <paveljanik> BW^- what OS?
857 2016-01-19T20:33:12 <paveljanik> can you paste make output somewhere?
858 2016-01-19T20:34:57 <BW^-> paveljanik: sec, i'm rebuilding to get the best conclusions for you :))
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866 2016-01-19T20:43:28 <BW^-> paveljanik: ah - the first error i spotted was that the build script I used used "make" whereas it's called "gmake" on my system
867 2016-01-19T20:43:59 <BW^-> paveljanik: that seems to have resolved it all :D
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872 2016-01-19T20:49:16 <Lauda> https://github.com/luke-jr/bitcoin/commit/8d3a84c242598ef3cdc733e99dddebfecdad84a6
873 2016-01-19T20:49:19 <Lauda> What does this do?
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876 2016-01-19T20:50:18 <Luke-Jr> Lauda: changes the PoW algorithm to SHA3 instead of SHA2
877 2016-01-19T20:50:34 <Lauda> Does that mean what I think it does?
878 2016-01-19T20:50:41 <Lauda> All current ASICs won't work?
879 2016-01-19T20:50:44 <AdrianG> yes.
880 2016-01-19T20:51:08 <Lauda> In what scenario would this gain consensus?
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884 2016-01-19T20:52:18 <AdrianG> what is the target release date for segwit?
885 2016-01-19T20:52:40 <sipa> Lauda: none
886 2016-01-19T20:53:00 <haakonn> AdrianG: https://bitcoin.org/en/bitcoin-core/capacity-increases-faq#roadmap-dates
887 2016-01-19T20:53:12 <Lauda> sipa then why does it exist, or is it not related to Core at all?
888 2016-01-19T20:53:38 <sipa> Lauda: people are free to make proposals
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890 2016-01-19T20:54:09 <Lauda> I know that. Just asking if there was a certain reason, it seems not then. Is SegWit going according to plan, i.e. no delays?
891 2016-01-19T20:55:37 <sipa> well segwit too is just a proposal, but a first implementation is very close to being ready (and we've had a prototype running for 3 weeks now or so)
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894 2016-01-19T20:56:48 <Lauda> I know what it is. That is good.
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907 2016-01-19T21:11:14 <maaku> sipa: what are your branches: segwit{,2,3,stats}?
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909 2016-01-19T21:12:05 <sipa> maaku: you should only care about segwit3
910 2016-01-19T21:12:15 <sipa> 1 and 2 were for earlier test networks
911 2016-01-19T21:13:25 <maaku> ok thank you
912 2016-01-19T21:13:56 <maaku> is this generally true of sipa's repo, the highest numbered branch is the most current proposal?
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916 2016-01-19T21:16:15 <sipa> maaku: i've certainly used that occasionally before
917 2016-01-19T21:16:33 <sipa> the headersfirst that got merged was headersfirst8
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919 2016-01-19T21:16:36 <sipa> i think
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949 2016-01-19T21:39:39 <maaku> ah good you've moved the commitment to an output. thank you
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958 2016-01-19T21:47:36 <maaku> sipa: the witness nonce seems to have changed purpose, is that documented anywhere?
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960 2016-01-19T21:48:12 <sipa> maaku: it is intended for future consensus-critical commitments
961 2016-01-19T21:48:22 <maaku> am I reading it correct that the nonce is now another branch of the witness tree for future expansion?
962 2016-01-19T21:49:07 <sipa> yup
963 2016-01-19T21:49:12 <maaku> ok
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977 2016-01-19T22:08:13 <bsm117532> Why should a non-mining node impose any block size limit at all? Why not accept any block at all, and follow the highest PoW, as Satoshi intended?
978 2016-01-19T22:08:22 <sdaftuar> sipa: i observed that implies you can't ever mark a block as permanently failed if the commitment doesn't match. no reason that should be a problem for anything i guess?
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988 2016-01-19T22:12:38 <sipa> bsm117532: because with arbitrary resource consumption, you can't know if the rest of the network can accept a block
989 2016-01-19T22:12:50 <sipa> which would lead to a fork
990 2016-01-19T22:13:02 *** tawar has joined #bitcoin-dev
991 2016-01-19T22:15:10 <bsm117532> But I know the size of the block from its header, and I start tracking it as a new tip. It's a fork in exactly the usual manner, and if I'm not mining, I *do* want to see which one is gaining more work. I'd argue if bitcoind *knows* you're not mining, why not set the limit very high, tied to say, resource consumption. e.g. 32MB?
992 2016-01-19T22:16:10 <sipa> so you're proposing a model where full nkdes accept blocks without being able to validate?
993 2016-01-19T22:16:32 <jonasschnelli> Size of the block in header?
994 2016-01-19T22:16:33 <sipa> there is no way to know the block size from the headerz by the way
995 2016-01-19T22:16:50 <bsm117532> ok whoops then. Just stop downloading at 32MB...
996 2016-01-19T22:17:06 <sipa> you haven't answered my question
997 2016-01-19T22:17:09 <bsm117532> Of course full nodes should validate.
998 2016-01-19T22:17:19 <maaku> bsm117532: pleaes strike "as Satoshi intended" from your vocabulary. it is of no relevance here
999 2016-01-19T22:17:26 <bsm117532> But they should also track the existence of other tips, even if they might/have rejected the block.
1000 2016-01-19T22:17:45 <sipa> if they can't know whether every full node will accept it, the only choice is rejecting
1001 2016-01-19T22:17:55 <sipa> or you have inconsistent rules across nodes, and risk a fork
1002 2016-01-19T22:18:06 <sipa> we do track invalid header chains
1003 2016-01-19T22:18:20 <sipa> or incomplete ones
1004 2016-01-19T22:18:26 <bsm117532> sipa: the information about what full nodes will accept is not advertised. The only thing I can actually know is which blocks were produced. No?
1005 2016-01-19T22:18:42 <sipa> bsm117532: that information is called the consensus rules
1006 2016-01-19T22:18:52 <sipa> full nodes can jointly decide to change it
1007 2016-01-19T22:18:57 <sipa> and that is called a hard fork
1008 2016-01-19T22:19:04 <bsm117532> So why not track them all? Even ones I can't validate. (Seeing a longer PoW chain than I can validate would be an indication I'm totally hosed)
1009 2016-01-19T22:19:19 <sipa> we do track that
1010 2016-01-19T22:19:23 <sipa> see the getchaintips rpc
1011 2016-01-19T22:19:45 <bsm117532> And bitcoind screams when it sees a longer chain that the one it thinks is valid?
1012 2016-01-19T22:19:49 <sipa> yes
1013 2016-01-19T22:19:55 <maaku> is there a better way to extract a push data than calling GetOp?
1014 2016-01-19T22:20:07 *** skyraider_ has quit IRC
1015 2016-01-19T22:20:14 <sipa> nope
1016 2016-01-19T22:20:20 <maaku> :(
1017 2016-01-19T22:20:23 <sipa> not that i know of :)
1018 2016-01-19T22:20:39 <bsm117532> Then this is a tempest in a teapot. It will be decided once the first >1MB block is produced, and will all be over within 60 minutes...
1019 2016-01-19T22:20:52 * bsm117532 is done with this tiresome debate. Again.
1020 2016-01-19T22:21:32 <sipa> bsm117532: if that ever happens intentionally, there is indeed a problem
1021 2016-01-19T22:22:13 <sipa> as there will be two possible outcomes: 1) massive risk for reorgs 2) the ecosystem switching to what miners demand for risk of (1)
1022 2016-01-19T22:22:41 <sipa> i wonder what will happen if they ever choose to increase the subsidy...
1023 2016-01-19T22:22:53 <bsm117532> A political problem, not a software problem. Miners will choose to maximize profits, and the system will continue.
1024 2016-01-19T22:23:04 <bsm117532> sipa: Let's hope they don't try that.
1025 2016-01-19T22:23:09 <sipa> so why do we have full nodes at all?
1026 2016-01-19T22:23:35 <bsm117532> It's a read-only database node. And to relay to the miners.
1027 2016-01-19T22:23:38 <sipa> miners wouldn't ever mine a double spend, right?
1028 2016-01-19T22:23:55 <sipa> that would also undermine the trust in the system
1029 2016-01-19T22:24:12 <sipa> the system is designed so we don't need to trust them
1030 2016-01-19T22:25:24 <bsm117532> I disagree with that last statement sipa. We trust them not to make hard forks willy-nilly. They're economically incentivized to poll other miners before they do so. Not that I like it...but this gets back to mining decentralization.
1031 2016-01-19T22:25:52 *** neozaru has quit IRC
1032 2016-01-19T22:26:01 <kanzure> anyone can make a hard-fork- go look at altcoins.
1033 2016-01-19T22:26:28 <bsm117532> Even with mining decentalization a majority could take a poll. This is a nasty business.
1034 2016-01-19T22:26:47 <kanzure> sipa: in an unsuccessful hard-fork (that is, one that does not also destroy the previous chain), there will be minting on both chains, so... that's a change to the supply.
1035 2016-01-19T22:26:51 <belcher> what about if that warning about a longer invalid chain was removed? to improve the inertia to change of the system
1036 2016-01-19T22:27:12 <belcher> i suppose its too late now , but maybe in a future cryptocurrency..
1037 2016-01-19T22:27:20 *** denisx has joined #bitcoin-dev
1038 2016-01-19T22:27:24 <dgenr8> bsm117532: we don't trust miners not to hard-fork. we run nodes for that.
1039 2016-01-19T22:27:41 <sipa> kanzure: but the exchange rate of the coins on both sides.will likely diverge, and perhaps even their sum will be less than what it was before
1040 2016-01-19T22:27:45 *** nys- has quit IRC
1041 2016-01-19T22:27:49 <denisx> I have âLoadBlockIndexDB: transaction index disabledâ in my debug.log
1042 2016-01-19T22:27:52 <denisx> is that a problem?
1043 2016-01-19T22:28:03 <sipa> denisx: no, yoi can enable it with -txindex
1044 2016-01-19T22:28:08 <kanzure> sipa: sure. true. but remember, bitcoin's 21M coin limit is not about the exchange rate, it's about a coin limit.
1045 2016-01-19T22:28:15 <jonasschnelli> denisx: that's normal.
1046 2016-01-19T22:28:17 *** nys- has joined #bitcoin-dev
1047 2016-01-19T22:28:18 <denisx> sipa: would that explain a very slow bitcoind?
1048 2016-01-19T22:28:27 <sipa> you only need the txindex if you want the getrawtransaction RPC
1049 2016-01-19T22:28:35 <sipa> denisx: no, txindex makes it a lot slower
1050 2016-01-19T22:29:05 <denisx> has it anything todo with the 0.11.2 update?
1051 2016-01-19T22:29:31 <sipa> no
1052 2016-01-19T22:29:36 <denisx> ok, thanks
1053 2016-01-19T22:29:40 <sipa> it's been that way since 0.8
1054 2016-01-19T22:29:56 <bsm117532> Well looks like we (BitDevsNYC) will probably hold a meeting on this topic. I'm gonna bring popcorn and a fire extinguisher, and try really really hard not to say anythign.
1055 2016-01-19T22:30:10 <jonasschnelli> :-)
1056 2016-01-19T22:30:12 <sipa> bsm117532: haha
1057 2016-01-19T22:30:43 <bsm117532> Meanwhile I'm going to think about ways to design a protocol that can accept more arbitrary changes to its protocol in a soft-fork manner...
1058 2016-01-19T22:31:30 <belcher> sipa so bitcoin core gives a warning when it detects an invalid chain longer than what it considers a valid one, would it be worth removing that warning to increase the inertia to change of the system ?
1059 2016-01-19T22:31:55 <bsm117532> belcher: that's a violent and political move.
1060 2016-01-19T22:32:18 <belcher> violent? i disagree, political? absolutely, i see bitcoin itself as political (i am aware that some people disagree)
1061 2016-01-19T22:32:20 <bsm117532> coercive, rather.
1062 2016-01-19T22:32:40 *** rusty78 has joined #bitcoin-dev
1063 2016-01-19T22:32:43 <bsm117532> coercion by enforced ignorance is not something I'd want in core.
1064 2016-01-19T22:32:54 <belcher> wait a minute, i get it why sipa wont answer me, whoops sorry for asking :)
1065 2016-01-19T22:33:01 <belcher> forget i asked
1066 2016-01-19T22:33:09 *** kgk has joined #bitcoin-dev
1067 2016-01-19T22:33:38 <belcher> bsm117532 people can always get their information in other ways, just bitcoin core is not obliged to share information that may help in destroying it's consensus
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1069 2016-01-19T22:34:01 <Lauda> http://codesuppository.blogspot.ca/2016/01/the-lightning-network-reality-check.html
1070 2016-01-19T22:34:06 <Lauda> There is one way that the Lightning Network numbers do work; and that is if individual people don't get to access the blockchain at all. If the only ones opening and closing channels on the main blockchain are banks and wealthy individuals, everyone else can just operate on layer-2 or 3rd party networks 100% of the time.
1071 2016-01-19T22:35:27 *** T23WS has joined #bitcoin-dev
1072 2016-01-19T22:36:25 <sipa> belcher: my phone died :)
1073 2016-01-19T22:36:55 <belcher> Lauda sounds correct from what i know about it, when the block space becomes rationed by the market, only those who are willing to pay enough will be able to access it
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1079 2016-01-19T22:37:42 <sipa> belcher: well, unfortunately the most common reason why that detection triggers is when the UTXO database gets corrupted
1080 2016-01-19T22:38:10 *** rusty78 has quit IRC
1081 2016-01-19T22:38:16 <belcher> so it already triggers sometimes on its own? thats unfortunate
1082 2016-01-19T22:38:18 <Lauda> belcher That sounds discouraging.
1083 2016-01-19T22:38:27 *** tantalum has quit IRC
1084 2016-01-19T22:38:33 * bsm117532 discovered bad RAM that way...
1085 2016-01-19T22:38:50 <belcher> Lauda why? very few people are willing to pay for armoured cars to ship around tons and tons of gold bars too
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1088 2016-01-19T22:39:15 <Lauda> That's not exactly what I had in mind for when I joined though.
1089 2016-01-19T22:39:35 <dgenr8> belcher: if you want to keep users in the dark, be sure to add code to falsify RPC blockchain statistics too
1090 2016-01-19T22:39:56 <belcher> in gold this is solved by creating paper notes, in bitcoin we can use smart contracts and payment channels so that fractional reserve or fraud cannot happen
1091 2016-01-19T22:40:33 *** Defcronyke has quit IRC
1092 2016-01-19T22:40:47 <belcher> we can have our cake and eat it as well, so to speak, have the good properties of a digital gold, but also be able to move through the internet very easily
1093 2016-01-19T22:41:36 <belcher> dgenr8 users can always just read bitcoin forums, theres no point trying to keep them in the dark, this is just about not having large warnings or popups that notify them
1094 2016-01-19T22:41:47 <belcher> but it sounds like the idea will never work anyway
1095 2016-01-19T22:41:53 *** Defcronyke has joined #bitcoin-dev
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1097 2016-01-19T22:43:22 <bsm117532> So, to be clear, if I don't have a horse in this race and am not a payment provider, I can just sneak in and change 1000000 to 0xffffffff, and a printf for if it happens, and watch the fireworks? (I'll accept the risk that someone will spend $10k to mine a block just to DDoS me)
1098 2016-01-19T22:43:29 <bsm117532> What else would go wrong?
1099 2016-01-19T22:44:41 <belcher> bsm117532 you'd be running on spv security, however if the amount the miners could steal from you is less than 25btc+fees, you theoretically have nothing to worry about
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1103 2016-01-19T22:45:40 <sipa> bsm117532: not fireworks, just a warning in many nodes
1104 2016-01-19T22:45:45 <sipa> people will talk about it
1105 2016-01-19T22:45:47 <bsm117532> Hence the "not a payment provider" comment.
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1107 2016-01-19T22:46:55 <bsm117532> My wallet will have only UTXO's older than the fork, and I'd wait until the fire dies down to send any spends.
1108 2016-01-19T22:47:47 <belcher> so in other words bsm117532 your bitcoins are frozen, you cannot spend them for the duration of the fork
1109 2016-01-19T22:47:58 <belcher> (although that would be true even if you didnt edit your node)
1110 2016-01-19T22:48:01 <bsm117532> belcher: Everyone's effectively are.
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1113 2016-01-19T22:51:51 <phantomcircuit> Lauda, hash locked bidirectional payment channels (aka lightning) fundamentally change the limitation from transactions per second (ie bytes/second) to channels open/closed per second (ie active users)
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1116 2016-01-19T22:52:48 <Lauda> phantomcircuit that does not really answer the part that I quoted, but thanks for the information.
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1119 2016-01-19T22:54:02 <Lauda> "but now it seems that instead of allowing freedom of choice between normal bitcoin transactions and instant offchain transactions.. it seems they want to push all users offchain and only have selective merchants using the real blockchain to make settlements."
1120 2016-01-19T22:54:20 <belcher> phantomcircuit would it be possible to imagine lightning users who never open any channels at all? e.g. someone gets paid a salary in the form of a LN tx and spends it all on food/bills/rent, never touching the actual blockchain
1121 2016-01-19T22:54:21 <phantomcircuit> Lauda, the sentiment is completely ridiculous; "if we have ~10000 times more users than we have today then we're going to have a capacity problem with lightning!"
1122 2016-01-19T22:54:23 <phantomcircuit> ok so what
1123 2016-01-19T22:54:51 <Lauda> I'm just quoting people discussing this.
1124 2016-01-19T22:54:57 <phantomcircuit> belcher, no you need to have a channel open to receive a payment
1125 2016-01-19T22:54:57 <Lauda> and trying to understand
1126 2016-01-19T22:55:07 <sipa> Lauda: many people somehow feel Lightning "is not Bitcoin"
1127 2016-01-19T22:55:25 <sipa> and perhaps the fact that it is called "Lightning network" encourages that
1128 2016-01-19T22:55:25 <phantomcircuit> sipa, the person he's quoting at least admits that lightning is bitcoin
1129 2016-01-19T22:55:35 <belcher> phantomcircuit so it doesnt work like streamium where one the parties has no money to start with ?
1130 2016-01-19T22:56:07 <phantomcircuit> Lauda, the only thing they're saying is that lightning does not enable infinite scaling -- which is true -- but i fail to see why that even matters
1131 2016-01-19T22:56:43 <dgenr8> many people feel that banks are not euros/dollars/yen
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1133 2016-01-19T22:57:11 <bsm117532> I imagine with LN, most people will keep a payment channel open to a bank-like service provider, so that payments can be routed to any other person with a channel open.
1134 2016-01-19T22:57:11 <phantomcircuit> belcher, i do not know how streamium works, but i am not aware of any scheme for receiving payments that doesn't require at least a single transaction to be included in a block
1135 2016-01-19T22:57:17 <Lauda> Some users are comparing it to an altcoin sipa.
1136 2016-01-19T22:57:32 <phantomcircuit> Lauda, those people are in a word retarded
1137 2016-01-19T22:57:50 <sipa> Lauda: i think that's completely unwarranted; it's the same currency, and the same transactions even; they just don't instantly hit the blockchain (but are secure nonetheless)
1138 2016-01-19T22:58:41 <dgenr8> phantomcircuit: thanks, that clears it up
1139 2016-01-19T22:59:51 <Lauda> Sipa I agree with this. Apparently they missunderstand it and I'm trying to help clear things up (correctly), thus I ask questions here.
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1141 2016-01-19T23:01:09 <bsm117532> Bidirectional payment channels are possible now on mainnet with CLTV. Whether it's called "lightning network" or not, routing payments this way will grow, and that growth is Bitcoin's growth.
1142 2016-01-19T23:02:20 <belcher> phantomcircuit something like this, writing from memory. a 2-of-2 multisig is created, the sender holds one key and sends a coin to it, when they want to do a payment they send to the receiver a partially-signed tx paying out that coin between sender and receiver, the receiver does not broadcast this tx until the very end when the channel is closed, in this situation the receiver doesnt need to own any coins beforehand
1143 2016-01-19T23:03:19 <moa> just fyi I always refer to it as the "Bitcoin Lightning Network" now ... because of the intentional FUD that has created the disconnect/revulsion
1144 2016-01-19T23:04:09 *** hashtag has joined #bitcoin-dev
1145 2016-01-19T23:04:09 <moa> could have called Bitcoin cache or bitcoin mempool-extension
1146 2016-01-19T23:04:40 <moa> if you were being as disingenuous as the detractors
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1148 2016-01-19T23:09:18 <phantomcircuit> belcher, i think that works but only if the channel is only unidirectional
1149 2016-01-19T23:09:42 <belcher> okay ty
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1151 2016-01-19T23:09:48 <dgenr8> moa: that's not really fair to LN, since it could just as easily be used with another chain
1152 2016-01-19T23:10:36 <moa> dgenr8: which one? I don't know of any that have the hooks in place for it their scripting ...
1153 2016-01-19T23:10:52 <phantomcircuit> belcher, and i think you dont really need the payment channel for a unidirectional payment
1154 2016-01-19T23:11:10 <phantomcircuit> oh i guess you do nvm
1155 2016-01-19T23:11:17 <dgenr8> well i'm not saying implementations haven't hard-coded a dependency on btc
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1158 2016-01-19T23:11:47 <phantomcircuit> belcher, no wait you dont, you just keep sending them new transactions with ever decreasing lock times
1159 2016-01-19T23:12:00 <moa> except most/all of their coding is based on bitcoin script CLTV and CSV
1160 2016-01-19T23:12:12 <Lauda> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1333984.0
1161 2016-01-19T23:12:19 <Lauda> 2013 Pieter Wuille is not the same 2015 Pieter Blockstream Wuille..
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1164 2016-01-19T23:14:40 <dgenr8> moa: it works with any genesis block, i'll leave it at that
1165 2016-01-19T23:15:06 <sipa> Lauda: my understanding increased
1166 2016-01-19T23:15:09 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, you realize 99.99% of the code for every altcoin is bitcoin right?
1167 2016-01-19T23:15:11 *** AtnevRed has joined #bitcoin-dev
1168 2016-01-19T23:15:25 <phantomcircuit> quick stop developing bitcoin so the altcoins cant use it!
1169 2016-01-19T23:16:00 <Lauda> Sipa I know that. People are pulling up all kinds of nonsense these days in order to support them.
1170 2016-01-19T23:16:10 <Lauda> No response to the LN discussion yet.
1171 2016-01-19T23:16:19 <moa> dgenr8: in reality no other altcoin has the dev resources to implement LN network on top ... hell, even bitcoin is struggling to make it happen
1172 2016-01-19T23:16:39 <dgenr8> phantomcircuit: let's see ... how would I put it in your language .. "you clearly fail to understand even the basics of the situation here"
1173 2016-01-19T23:16:52 <dgenr8> a bunch of large hubs could decide to switch to an alt
1174 2016-01-19T23:16:59 <moa> riiiight
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1176 2016-01-19T23:17:24 <sipa> Lauda: anyway, if you feel inclined to, please link to the entire post where this quote came from. i think it gives a much better view (and yes, my understanding changed, i wasn't aware of the mining centralization that resulted from relay at that time)
1177 2016-01-19T23:17:29 <sipa> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144895.msg1537737#msg1537737
1178 2016-01-19T23:17:37 *** [\\\] has joined #bitcoin-dev
1179 2016-01-19T23:17:57 <Lauda> sipa new thread at BTCT links to this
1180 2016-01-19T23:17:58 <Lauda> https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/3xg613/pieter_wuille_in_2013_bitcoin_is_a_consensus_of/
1181 2016-01-19T23:18:30 <dgenr8> dollars in one side, dollars out the other. meanwhile the usage of the alt grows
1182 2016-01-19T23:19:14 <Lauda> Which is the same post.
1183 2016-01-19T23:19:16 <dgenr8> they key is getting users to accept "layer 2" and not btc
1184 2016-01-19T23:19:21 <moa> what's really eating me up is people who haven't been paying attention are now clamouring for "better communiction" ... doublespeak for "I don't understand so get me up to speed by spoonfeeding for free and then i can go and write an article or consult on it like I'm an expert"
1185 2016-01-19T23:19:29 <phantomcircuit> dgenr8, THERE ARE NO HUBS FUCK RIGHT OFF
1186 2016-01-19T23:19:32 <phantomcircuit> idiot
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1194 2016-01-19T23:21:51 <dgenr8> i notice the ops have favorites
1195 2016-01-19T23:23:06 <dgenr8> ripple had the same plan for a while. invisible middleman XRP.
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1204 2016-01-19T23:35:44 <Lauda> "I mean you have to buy altcoins to pay with them. It's an investment. The same way you have to buy into payment channels and bind your bitcoins in the system without being able to freely move them. That's the first hurdle to overcome when it comes to convince people of using it. In fact i think it will be pretty much impossible to move a considerable amount of people to move to ln."
1205 2016-01-19T23:35:59 <Lauda> "Well, you can say that changetip is bitcoin too then. The bitcoins only are transferred offchain. And you don't see a difference why you would not trust changetip with your monthly earnings? Yes, ln is safer but still there is a group who demands you, no tries to force you to use their new system. They don't take out the artificial restriction that hinders the bitcoin network and present their own network as solution."
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1207 2016-01-19T23:36:48 <sipa> Lauda: changetip very much is Bitcoin (the currency)
1208 2016-01-19T23:37:26 <sipa> Lauda: and LN is actually quite a bit like changetip, except LN is not a single party that can run away with your money, or go bankrupt, or hold your coins hostage
1209 2016-01-19T23:37:28 <ibrightly> I see the LN as being more or less like using Changetip is today, with the difference being that if ChangeTip-LN-Node goes away, you get your funds back in a week or so. I'm actually pretty exciting for LN, although I imagine it'll take some time to get some traction.
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1213 2016-01-19T23:40:36 <ibrightly> I imagine that one of the harder parts to figure out will be how to determine paths. For example, if one user is on the LN and the other isn't, how do I negotiate that payment to get you setup with an open channel to someone we have in common? Making that UX go smoothly will be key.
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1215 2016-01-19T23:41:28 <Lauda> Thanks sipa.
1216 2016-01-19T23:41:50 <sipa> Lauda: i also answered on reddit...
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1224 2016-01-19T23:48:07 <Lauda> thanks rusty & sipa.
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